With the economy being the number one issue on people's minds, to not listen to economists in regards to the gas tax holiday is stupid.

She's basically saying she's smarter than all the economists.

And she thinks Obama is out of touch?

"I'm not going to put my lot in with economists."

They may disagree among themselves, they're not always right, they make mistakes, but economists are the people you go to when you want to learn about the economy.

She doesn't know or recognize that?

Just one more reason why she's not presidential material.

Clinton and McCain ought to team up and form the McHillaryPanderBear ticket.

Very impressive, Hillary, esp. right on the heels of the "Obliterate Iran" speech.

It'd take a lot to sound dumber than the Shrub, but you've taken a good shot at it.

Ignore the experts - isn't that what Bush does?

Does anybody know of a mainstream economist who predicted any of this? I don't. To my knowledge, mainstream economists NEVER predict downturns in the economy.

Wait... isn't this the same Hillary Clinton who suggested we punt the housing mess over to the economists like Greenspan... in fact wasn't the quote:

"Not only that, but the Fed didn't act while he was there. But he has a calming influence still to this day on Wall Street -- don't ask me why because I never understand what he's saying -- but nevertheless people respond to that Delphic oracle approach. I think it would be wise to include him."

Ignore the experts - isn't that what Bush does?

Posted by pragmatous

Not exactly. He fires the ones that don't tell him what he wants to hear. Same for generals.

They may disagree among themselves, they're not always right, they make mistakes,

Posted by Doc_Sarvis

So, which ones do you believe, the ones that say it will be a disaster or the ones that say it won't matter for the summer?

So, which ones do you believe, the ones that say it will be a disaster or the ones that say it won't matter for the summer?
~Snippy

Do any of them use the word disaster?

It's just simply bad policy.

Clinton has been arguing that it's not only about the money saved but the message it sends. "I really believe we've got to start right now, demonstrating a willingness to take on these oil companies," she argued to Stephanopolous.

Big oil will be terrified at the idea of a few cents drop in gas prices... ah hell, never mind, it won't come out of their pockets.

Do any of them use the word disaster?

Posted by Zap

Some say it would be "harmfull", some don't. Why is it good policy to listen the "sky is falling" group.

It's like that "global warming" shit. It isn't happening now. It has happened in the past and we wern't there to cause it but it makes you 'feel good' to think your more powerfull than the sun.

Exxon posts $10.9 billion profit Bolstered by record crude oil prices

Posted by Bani

And they still only made around 8% profit. You people need to go into business and see what profit realy is. I made over 10% profit on my investments last year, I guess I should be assesed a winfall profit tax too. How about all the residents of Alaska that get a cut of the oil money? Tax them for winfall profits too? Bite me.

The Clintons made over $100 million in the past 7 years. I guess they should give up a huge chunk of that winfall profit. If BJ Billy wasn't president they would have never made that much.

pho, lets see a show of hands of everyone that is carpooling now that didn't a year ago.

Lets count the cars in the HOV lane during the restricted hours.

It looks like people are bitching but not doing anything to change their fuel usage.

I do aggree, the gas tax will hurt the low income people the most and is a terrible idea. Maybe they could cut the size of the government. Like that will happen.

There is no such thing as a "short term" tax...Production of oil being pumped out of the ground is at it's lowest since 1949, and one of the deepest drops contributing to the decline is Alaska's pipeline from the 1970's. Out of the 5 major oil companies only 82 percent of the wells which dried up are being replaced. The sad reality as global demands goes up which out paces the decline of demand in the US, no oil refineries being built since 1976, and the oil production from the 1970's is starting to dry up...Hillary has no clue on how to fix this problem, just traditional tax and spend.

There is no such thing as a "short term" tax...Production of oil being pumped out of the ground is at it's lowest since 1949...Hillary has no clue on how to fix this problem, just traditional tax and spend. -- Mikewarrior

Mike, you're making an argument against the gas tax. Hillary is under fire for arguing against the gas tax. ???

let's invade Iran instead...

ff

"We've got to get out of this mind-set where somehow elite opinion is always on the side of doing things that really disadvantage the vast majority of Americans"

Thinking you know more about the economy than actual professional economists is the only "elite" opinion I see here. -- Dfiant

Well, Mankiw, the economist who jumped on Clinton's proposed gas tax holiday, was our current President Bush's Chair of the Council of Economic Advisors.

Bill Clinton achieved what many had thought was impossible -- a dramatic reduction in debt accompanied by 4% growth and the lowest unemployment rate in 30 years. 1999's budget deficit had been forecast at $455 billion, but 1999 turned into

the third year in a row the federal government has taken in more than it spent, and has paid down the debt. The last time the U.S. government had a third consecutive year of national debt reduction was 1949, said the official.

The federal budget surplus for fiscal year 1999 was $122.7 billion, and $69.2 billion for fiscal year 1998. Those back-to-back surpluses, the first since 1957, allowed the Treasury to pay down $138 billion in national debt.

Mankiw, the economist

Is one of every. As in EVERY economist agrees it's a stupid idea.

Reminds me of the congressman who claimed that the researching who studied the failure that is abstinance only are elitists and parents know what's best for their children.

This despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Damn those elitists economists. We only know what's best for the economy - Hillary and McCain

"the third year in a row the federal government has taken in more than it spent, and has paid down the debt. "

Whoa, bucky...

"taken in more than it spent" includes taking in Social Security overcollections, which more than masked the debt. The "surplus" was a fantasy: NO DEBT WAS EVER PAID DOWN. Check each year's final numbers regarding total national debt: it always increased.

Full disclosure: George Bush has had access to these same accounting tricks, in fact has had the benefit of even larger overcollections, and all he has to show are the largest deficits known to man since the dawn of time.

Clinton's statement in context:

But let's step back here a minute, George. You know, it's really odd to me that arguing to give relief to the vast majority of Americans creates this incredible pushback. When the federal government, through the Fed and the Treasury, gave $30 billion in a bailout to Bear Stearns, I didn't hear anybody jump up and say, "that's not going according to the market. That's rewarding irresponsible behavior."

We've got to get out of this mindset where somehow elite opinion is always on the side of doing things that really disadvantage the vast majority of Americans

Ray, Alan Abelson (of Barron's) has been predicting this forever!

OK Lets say you accept HRC's idea, especially the one where she says "let the oil co's" pay the tax, not you and me...

You pay, they pay, me pay... it's going to get paid, and the price remains THE SAME...Take 45 cents off of gas, put it on the oil companies, they tack on 45 cents more for tax....the price remains the same.

Let me see if I get this straight:

McCain, who confessed to not knowing shit about the economy comes up with this gas-tax holiday gimmick. Hillary latches onto it and then says she will ignore economists on this issue. Does that mean she will ignore economists if she were president? Why pick and chose?

Vote McClinton '08 if you want a president who doesn't know shit about the economy and will ignore the advise of those who do.

"You're forgetting to correct for inflation"

Adjusting it for inflation misses the point. The total debt was bigger at the end of the year than at the beginning of the year. Who gets deeper in debt and shrugs it off to inflation?

But if you really want to look at a critical stat, look at percentage of annual governmental outlay going to service the debt. That's the most important thing to watch; it''ll eventually choke off our other options. When Bush took office, it was 11%. Bush increased that 50%, to where we now spend one dollar of every six to service the debt. Alarm bells should be going off.

Interesting, nothing about jobs, increase wages, stopping offshoring all the things that will help this economy.

But they offer no price decrease, just won't collect the fed gas tax. The short fall will be for each state using fed. assistance and so they will raise the gas tax and that my friends will neveer go back.

Nice, she certain thought this through and is thinking about the people.........NOT.

She's desperate, and saying provocative things to see if anything sticks. I don't think that she truly believes that this tax holiday will be anything other than a further massive money transfer to oil companies and oil producing states.

The fact that Obama is not destroying her for this (and other dopey things she has said recently) in a personal way suggests that he is still open to her as VP.

Why do you think he is against it, Corky?

When legislation was introduced to eliminate the tax permanently, Obama voted "no."

He saw the benefits were not there so he voted against eliminating it permanently.

"Flipper Obama was for gas tax holiday before he was against it."

Of course if you watched him on Tim Russert you would have heard him say that when they did it in Illinois it didn't work out very well in practice. And that even though he originally voted for it, he learned from his mistake and wouldn't repeat it nationally.

Is learning from one's past experiences considered a flip-flop?

What else was he going to say, lmao!!

The CBS report says, " But the impact of the tax holiday was never clear. A government study could not determine how much of the savings was passed along to motorists."

It was politically expedient for him to vote for the gas tax holiday then, and since he wanted to be different, it is politically expedient for him to be against it now.

Same old school politics, brand new bottle.


"If she gave him one of her cojones, they'd both have two." - "Snake" Carville

Corky,

The impact was not clear after the 6 months. A later study showed the consumers only saw a three-fifths benefit.

3/5s is better than none, and if one considers that such a study uses every possible driver in the US, not people who's work is heavily effected by high gas costs, the benefit is greater.

The gas holiday is much like mortgage protection. It doesn't claim to be a cure all, just some relief for high usage drivers.

It's not an elitist thing, so some won't understand. (lol!)

Not when you consider the cost.

That's why no economist views it as good thing. You can either listen to the experts or not listen to them.

Thinking you know more than the experts is...

you guessed it, elitist.

Well unfortunately for Sen. Clinton and Sen. McCain, the latest CBS/NYT poll shows 70% of voters agree with Sen. Obama.

-Not when you consider the cost.

In McCain's plan, not hers, which is paid for.

You always bow to "the experts", do you?

Picked New England in the Superbowl, eh?


SA is SO poll driven, lmao!!

"Kalyn Free, an at-large member of the Democratic National Committee, today announced that she supports Illinois Senator Barack Obama for the party's presidential nomination. As a DNC member, Free will serve as a superdelegate to the Democratic National Convention."

Clinton SD lead now down to 18.

Dorky

3/5 of something that you have to pay back elsewhere, possibly many times over through interest on debt is not a good deal. Is just basic economics, so I wouldn't expect you to understand.

You always bow to "the experts", do you?

Well, we definitely know you don't listen to experts!

Clinton still leads in SDs? Great!

Imagine the GOP Rapture when Obama gets called to testify in the Rezko Trial.

Tony "The Other Shoe" Rezko, that is.

-you have to pay back elsewhere

Still talking about McCain's plan, eh?

Her argument is the same as the argument for school vouchers. In the long run, will the tax holiday solve anything? No, but it will help some people who need help today, who don't have the luxury of waiting until our government figures out what to do.

The macro, more correct view, loses out to the myopic micro view. And in a sense, anybody who suggests it should be otherwise, will sound like the elitist who doesn't appreciate the urgency with which help is needed because they don't share that urgency.

The elitist usually is the expert... who thinks that expertise somehow makes them better than the person who picks up their trash.

"In McCain's plan, not hers, which is paid for."

Paid for with $$ she already committed elsewhere. LOL!

SA is SO poll driven, lmao!!

Indiana Poll Shows Clinton With Big Lead Over Obama
Survey Taker: Pastor Controversy Possibly Big Factor

Hillary Leads in Swing States

InsiderAdvantage: Clinton Passes Obama in North Carolina
read more

Poll: HRC Better vs McCain

Poll: Clinton has better chance than Obama of beating McCain

Posted by corky


LMAO!

Well said, as per usual, Hagbard.

-Paid for with $$ she already committed elsewhere. LOL!


Where else has she committed money from a Windfall Profits tax?

Well said, as per usual, Hagbard.

Posted by Corky

**Thank you. LOL. **Bows...

Sincerely,

HC (~Corky)

(~Corky)

I noticed 4 or 5 posters who were accused of being me in the last month or so because they had the audacity to be politically incorrect enough around here to support HRC.

Funny as hell.

Hillary Clinton on where the money from a windfall profits tax would go:


"In the short term, I do want a gas tax holiday but to pay for it by putting a windfall profits tax on the oil companies...."
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/ capital-commerce/2008/5/1/ clinton-let-uncle-sam- determine-profits.html? s_cid=rss:capital-commerce: clinton-let-uncle-sam- determine-profits

-Strategic Energy Fund, paid for in part by oil companies

Eliminating current oil company tax breaks and windfall profits taxes are two different things.

At ever increasing profits on ever increasing prices, there is plenty of it to go around.

Corky,
I don't exactly support HRC. What I do support is that any criticism of any candidate be accurate and fair, and that all candidates, pundits, bloggers and posters should hold themselves to the same standard that they expect others to abide by. (gr?)I don't think she gets a fair break here, so I stick up for her, more by being unafraid to criticize Obama where I think he's weak.

Examination and criticism are good things when done respectfully.

I agree, Hagbard, and did not mean to put you in her camp.

Just more evidence, however, that one need only try to be objective to be condemned as PI around here, not necessarily really even be in the other camp.

Waaaaah! Waaaaaaah!

Or should I have said "If you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen"?

Just more evidence, however, that one need only try to be objective to be condemned as PI around here, not necessarily really even be in the other camp.

Posted by Corky

I think that's the worst effect of The Age of Bush. The left has spent so much time looking at the opposition as the enemy, that we've conditioned ourselves to look at them that way, regardless of how much we have in common. A generation of activists have been brought up in that atmosphere.

It's a bad habit that kills the practitioner I'm afraid. The practitioner here being the Democratic Party.

I don't think she gets a fair break here

----

I think she is. Even if you use her numbers at a savings of $70 and factor in a .60 benefit, it only comes down to $14 a month in savings.

I would give her a fair break if she had some economists on her side on this but she doesn't.

Adjusting it for inflation misses the point... Who gets deeper in debt and shrugs it off to inflation? -- Danforth

Any good financial analyst?

It's the same principle that says if you're earning 5% on your portfolio, but inflation is 10%, you're losing money.

(Hopefully most people think about these things when evaluating their pensions!)

Waaaaah! Waaaaaaah!

Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2008-05-05 10:38 AM

Or should I have said "If you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen"?

Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2008-05-05 10:39 AM


Please don't tell me that's your justification for lowest common denominator campaigning.

-Or should I have said

Something other than, "Paid for with $$ she already committed elsewhere. LOL!" ????

Hagbard,

I first noticed the intolerance of Libs here for Christians. Then I learned that supporting someone other than Obama was almost as bad, if not worse.

I keep telling them to find an atheist candidate, but Barrack, who "talks to the imaginary man in the sky", seems to the best they can do.

I would give her a fair break if she had some economists on her side on this but she doesn't.

Posted by Pirate

If that's what you're basing your support on, then my point that it's about helping people now who can't wait for the government to work something out means nothing to you.

That truly does smell of elitism.

Will it be more expensive? Yes, but that's not the point of it.

"Please don't tell me that's your justification for lowest common denominator campaigning.

Posted by Hagbard_Celine"

No Hagbard, I was simply pointing out Corky's incessant whining about how sorely mistreated he is being the lone voice crying in the wilderness, so to speak. And also just recycling Hillary's already recycled Truman quote to Obama that if you can't take the tough questions and criticisms, maybe you should just get out.

Hillary tries bribing voters with their own money despite being fully aware from previous attempts that the approach is flawed?

Why that's so obvious and cynical it just might work amongst voters too stupid to see past her pandering.

/That's pretty much her entire base, btw.

Be Well.

- voters too stupid

Elitist tubers. Who'd a thunk it?

-bribing voters with their own money

Still confusing her with McCain. They must all look alike....

Corky - Hillary has proposed using windfall profits to bankroll her Strategic Energy Fund (a good idea)unless oil companies voluntarily contribute to it (they won't).

If that's what you're basing your support on, then my point that it's about helping people now who can't wait for the government to work something out means nothing to you.

That truly does smell of elitism.

Will it be more expensive? Yes, but that's not the point of it.

----

It's a short term gain with long term consequences. It's like taking out a home equity loan to pay off your credit card debt while not checking your spending.

You're helping yourself in the short term but hurting yourself in the long run.

Is learning from one's past experiences considered a flip-flop?


Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2008-05-05 09:39 AM | Reply | Flag:


Sorry San, it is in Corky-Dorky world, in other words in the paid blogger role Corky Lieberman must maintain those talking points or the blog pay goes away.

That's just the way it is if you'd be willing to do or say anything to damage another fine Democrat. Carville the swamp scum is the only thing worse than Dorky and the likes.

Plenty of money between eliminating tax breaks and a windfall tax for a tax holiday, too.

"Hillary tries bribing voters with their own money despite being fully aware from previous attempts that the approach is flawed?

I'm glad that you don't need the tax holiday, mi papa frita. But to be unable to see how to some people that might actually mean something smacks of narcissistic elititsm.

"...Why that's so obvious and cynical it just might work amongst voters too stupid to see past her pandering.

/That's pretty much her entire base, btw."

That's your plan to get them to vote for Obama come November? Good work. I'm surprised the Obama campaign hasn't picked you up to take over for Axelrod.

"Be Well."

Posted by dethspud

Be Well, my ass. You don't care about America or the Democratic Party, because you'll just bail on the whole shindig once it no longer becomes economically beneficial to you.

Is Reagan(IQ) really Larry?

-You're helping yourself in the short term but hurting yourself in the long run.

Happens all the time, often quite rationally.

Plenty of money between eliminating tax breaks and a windfall tax for a tax holiday, too.

----

The other part of the equation is getting a windfall tax passed through Congress.

Good luck on that.

It's a short term gain with long term consequences. It's like taking out a home equity loan to pay off your credit card debt while not checking your spending.

You're helping yourself in the short term but hurting yourself in the long run.

Posted by Pirate

No, It's more like having your credit card stolen, failing to report it or cancel it and then taking out a home equity loan to pay for it.

-Good luck on that.

Well, we all know Obama could do it with a flick of his wrist.

No, It's more like having your credit card stolen, failing to report it or cancel it and then taking out a home equity loan to pay for it.

Posted by STIRSUMUP

Yes, that is a good analogy, but you should allow it to continue. It's a credit card, but in Bush's name. He's the only one who can call it in as stolen, but since he's unwilling to do that, the people who have to pay the bill, congress, are left with very few choices. And no good choices.

Harold Ford was on MSNBC this morning saying it would save consumers $50/month.

I did the calculations. You have to use 277 gallons a month to save that much.

If I fill my truck up once a week, 22 gallon tank, I'll save $17.00 a month.

So much bullshit.

If I fill my truck up once a week, 22 gallon tank, I'll save $17.00 a month.

So much bullshit.

Posted by YAV

Some have to fill up more than once. That'd be $34.00/month. I remember a time when an extra $34 meant ALOT to me.

I'm glad you don't have any memories like that.

Non Serviam

HC

I'm glad you don't have any memories like that.

Certainly true that 18 cents in comparison to what I payed per gallon last year doesn't do much for me.

But hey, if you think I'm that wrong, make your case.

Gas will fall a bit once the summer formulations are rolled out and this will be seen even more for what it is; pandering.

Oh, me and 70% of America see it that way.

Not that this matters. It won't get passed anyway. McCain knows it, Clinton knows it.

"Oh, me and 70% of America see it that way."

Okay, that was the argument to continue slavery, but....

"Not that this matters. It won't get passed anyway. McCain knows it, Clinton knows it."

That is true. who do you think it will hurt more in the long run? McCain's base, Clinton's base, those, to quote our local papa, "too stupid to see past her pandering", right?

Who do you think they will look to when remembering who to vote for?

Someone too wealthy to even begin to have a modicum of sensitivity to what it means to be working yet dirt poor?

My guess is that they'll remember McCain or Clinton, and if they don't hhave Clinton as a choice, then just McCain.

I can't believe that Obama is going to go the way of John Kerry, but the more I hear coming out of the mouths of his supporters, the more I'm sure of it.

If they want to be honest about how much it would save you would have to look at the indirect savings. Everything you buy was shipped via diesel or jetA. if you cut the fuel tax you would save in ways you can't imagine. The real issue here is why we are having this conversation. This is a result of shortsightedness of our federal government. They have taken more power from the people than they deserve yet they are powerless to leverage the world oil market. If the people in Washington were smarter they would figure a way to finesse not force a solution.

-18 cents a gallon takes us back to what gas prices were 3 weeks ago.

If you want to reduce the price of gas, open the flood gates on new high tech refineries. They'll be better for the environment. Only thing is, the oil companies won't want to use them, because then we would have more supply in the mix and they couldn't over charge us as much.

This gas tax 'break' is silly, we are already in huge deficits, so let's go into deficits even more? That's the solution?

The little savings from a tax holiday seems to be considered wonderful and should be done - even if it is only $15/month or $30/month.

Total savings for the holiday?

If this gimmick is so wonderful, then why do people laugh at Bush giving away $600 plus $300 per kid?

The President has been bashed for this cheap attempt to help the public. Yet, and I'm guessing, those that support the tax holiday and are Democrats probably are bashing Bush over the stimulus money.

If I'm wrong about the D's bashing it...

That's the solution?
Posted by bigjohn_1972

I agree, that's no solution, and Clinton doesn't think so either.

What it is, admittedly, is only a band aid, when a whole different kind of remedy is actually appropriate. But you can only use the tools in your bag. Most of the remedy would have to come from the executive branch, and if that's not going to happen, you do whatever you can, however little.

"What it is, admittedly, is only a band aid, when a whole different kind of remedy is actually appropriate."

Its not even a bandaid. Its more like "let momma kiss a booboo".

So what is the big attraction of making such an ineffective gesture, that most American's recognize as a weak political move, and risk the potential negative ramifications that most economists anticipate?

Does it really matter if they take a few cents tax off a gallon when they increase the wholesale price by leaps and bounds every month? noo..

Hillary is just paying lip service to the desperate. Had she offered her husband the same service a decade ago, the drama wouldnt have lost the election for Gore and gotten George Bush elected.

Too little too late Hillbillary..

But you can only use the tools in your bag.

----

Amazing what tools show up in your bag during an election year.

"Clinton still leads in SDs? Great! Posted by Corky"

Glad you're happy with that 18 SD lead Corky! Oops, make that 16.

"PolitickerMD reports that MD State Democratic Party Chairman Michael Cryor and Vice Chairwoman Lauren Dugas Glover will endorse Illinois Senator Barack Obama this afternoon."

Sorry SA

Don't you know it is Obama's Myth, er uh, Policy that SDs MUST vote the way their constituents vote?

That they cannot overturn what the voters in their states want?

Means you'll have to subtract John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Bill Richardson... so on and so on.... lmfao!!

And if Ted Kennedy can vote against MA, doesn't that mean that SDs in general can vote against whoever has the most pledged Dels less than 2024?

Consistency, my dear. Consistency.

"Sorry SA

Don't you know it is Obama's Myth, er uh, Policy that SDs MUST vote the way their constituents vote?"

No, it is actually YOUR myth that Obama says that.

In fact, a recently as yesterday I heard him say on national TV that SD's under the rules can vote their conscience for whomever they choose.

That being said, I'm so glad you're totally unconcerned about the fact more SD's are moving daily into Obama's column, making the percentage of the remaining ones she would have to garner exponentially less achievable.

She always does. That's why she wants to raise taxes and socialize health care, the raising of children, and anything else she can get to.

Corky don't you ever get dizzy from all that spinning?

-It will cost 300,000 construction jobs,

Still confusing her with McCain, eh?


-totally unconcerned about the fact more SD's

Let me know when he gets to 2024.... oh, he can't, you say? Hmmmm, too bad.

Still confusing her with McCain, eh? CorkedButt

It's easy to do.

Clinton is a liar and birds of feather flock together.

Let us know when GW Bush signs on to the Windfall Profits Tax. Hahahaha

Still confusing her with McCain, eh?

----

No, that's Newsweek which I quoted from. I'm sure you'll write them and set them straight, eh?

Hi all,
After the rough treatment I received from a poster on this site, I thought I would never post here again. But, it is a slow news day and I found some of the posts here rather interesting. Someone made mention of Obama going the way of Kerry. Obama was never supposed to be the nominee. He was a green bi-racial Senator with a muslim surname and an African father. Anybody who thought he might have had a chance a year ago would have been laughed at. One of the reasons he has been as successful as he has is because Hillary has run a disasterous campaign.
I think the same thing could be said about the Republicans. McCain wasn't given a snowballs chance in hell of winning the nomination and now look at him. This election is all about the powers to be throwing away their nomination. They then cry about it. I think if they listen closely, they will hear the american people saying screw you. We are done with all the bull-shit. Enough games. Just be honest. I can't stand to listen to Hillary. She doesn't take a stand for anything. All she cares about is winning at any and all costs. At least McCain has the guts to take a stand and stick to it, even if it isn't something that is politically popular.

"It's the same principle that says if you're earning 5% on your portfolio, but inflation is 10%, you're losing money."

Again, you're missing the point: I'm not discussing ROI, I'm pointing out if you owe 3 Trillion on one January, and 3.2 Trillion the next January, you've increased the debt, and you haven't run a surplus budget.

To expand: If we owe 3 Trillion, and the next year's inflation is 5% yet we run an exactly balanced budget, the debt at the end of the year isn't 3.15 Trillion, it's still 3.0 Trillion.

"Let me know when he gets to 2024.... oh, he can't, you say? Hmmmm, too bad."

Oh, but he CAN mon ami. As more and more SD's move into his column, he only needs about 34% of the remaining undecideds to put him over.

Oh, but he CAN mon ami. As more and more SD's move into his column, he only needs about 34% of the remaining undecideds to put him over.

Again, you're missing the point:

Actually, I'm not. I'm trying to explain basic economics to you, and you're being stubborn.

Money has no intrinsic value -- this is why economists typically express values in "constant dollars" (real values) rather than "current dollars" (nominal values) when making comparisons over time.

I'm not discussing ROI...

Ah, but if that's something you understand, it's as good a place as any to start.

You seem to recognize that I'm correct in noting that receiving 5% interest when inflation is 10% means you're losing money. But if you start with $100, and earn 5% interest, you wound up with $105.

You "lose money" not because the nominal value has gone down, but again, because the true value of your holding is correctly assessed as its buying power. To make this comparison across time, you correct for inflation.

I'm pointing out if you owe 3 Trillion on one January, and 3.2 Trillion the next January, you've increased the debt...

Same logic applies here -- borrowing is just negative lending. If the nominal value of your debt increased 6.7%, but inflation was 10%, the real value of your debt dropped 3.3%.

This isn't a clever trick on my part. If you're not thinking about the national debt this way, you're at odds with the vast majority of financial professionals.

Still reaching on Rezko Cork? When are they planning on calling Obama to testify?

Update for you Cork: Testimony in the Rezko trial ended yesterday.

I FEEL LIKE I AM TAKING CRAZY PILLS!

WHAT IS MOST DISCOURAGING IS THAT MOST PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WILL VOTE FOR 1 OF THESE 3 DUMMIES.

THERE IS A SQUIRREL IN MY YARD WHO COULDN'T DO A WORSE JOB!

Study: Obama-Backed Illinois Gas Tax Holiday Actually Worked


George Frost writes in Salon:

While an Illinois state senator, Obama supported a state tax holiday very much like Clinton's proposal, but without the saving mechanism of a windfall profits tax. ...

During one state Senate floor debate, Obama joked that he wanted signs on gas pumps in his district to say, "Senator Obama reduced your gasoline prices."

Now, running for president, Obama says the tax reduction was a compl