A recent personal story on health insurance. My son over the last two months has received almost $100,000 worth of medical care. It has cost me a grand total of $550 out of pocket. The rest has been covered by HealthNet. Without this insurance my son my might well be dead.
How can we as a nation morally justify not having a national health care program which covers all Americans?

How can we as a nation morally justify not having a national health care program which covers all Americans?


Calvinism

Don't worry, you'll probably in the next few years get your wish. Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it. Your government will give you the same quality health care as they provide in education, and just about every thing else they touch.

ps: Sounds like you have great coverage, sorry you'll have to give it up for something run by the government.

Just got through paying the last bill for the birth of my daughter in January. Overall, paid about $1,700 out of pocket. Plan pays 80%.

My monthly premiums are low though...paying less than $200 for a family of 4.

It was so predictable. When you subsidize something, you get more of it (demand). When you tax, you get less (supply).

How can we as a nation morally justify not having a national health care program which covers all Americans?

Posted by moder8

We're a nation in debt beyond all means.

So predictable. Profit maximizing capitalists want to cut costs and push healthcare costs onto workers. Nothing new here.

I was just thinking. Maybe OUR gov't can't run a single payer program the way it should. Why don't we just get one of the other gov'ts around the civilized world to run it for us. We do screw up a shitload of things. Like the Pentagon paying 100 bucks for a screwdriver.

We're a nation in debt beyond all means.

Well, when you have a President who borrows trillions of dollars from our biggest trade competitor - China - so he can conduct his illegal war in Iraq is there any doubt why we might be a trifle in debt!

Bush lets China call all the shots in his joke of a free trade policy (where China subsidizes their own country's manufacturers to the unfair advantage of U.S manufacturers) so now in addition to owing trillions on the Iraq war, thanks to Bush we also have have the biggest trade deficit in U.S. history.

Just talking about all the rotten things Bush does gives me a stomach
I'm going outside in the sun and water the front yard.

whoops - left off a word

gives me a stomach = gives me a stomach ache

So predictable. Profit maximizing capitalists want to cut costs and push healthcare costs onto workers. Nothing new here.

Posted by nullifidian

It's either pass the costs on to their customers or to their workers. Any company who wants to stay in business has to be careful about what customers are willing to pay. Predictable, yes. Basic business sense too.

"It's either pass the costs on to their customers or to their workers."

There's a 3rd alternative you haven't considered. They could settle for lower profits.

That's the alternative GM, Ford and Chrysler took. Now they are almost bankrupt.

There is a forth alternative. Take away the tax exemption for health expenses from the corporations and give it to the workers. That would take away the financial incentive to offer it. Then let the workers buy their own private insurance, making the insurance companies compete for their business. That's about the way it used to be when medical expenses were affordable.

****** How can we as a nation morally justify not having a national health care program which covers all Americans?
Posted by moder8 ******

.......we are too stupid to have one.........

"That's the alternative GM, Ford and Chrysler took. Now they are almost bankrupt."

Because they settled for lower profits? Their problem was trying to maximize profits by building gas guzzlers. That worked for awhile.

"There is a forth alternative. "

There's a fifth alternative. Take healthcare out of the hands of employers altogether by implementing universal single-payer coverage, thus leveling the playing field with their international competitors.

Just talking about all the rotten things Bush does gives me a stomach
I'm going outside in the sun and water the front yard.

Posted by CalifChris
* * * *

Well, the good news is you're wrong about a lot of it. So take a Tums, enjoy the sunshine, and pick up a book.

There's a fifth alternative. Take healthcare out of the hands of employers altogether by implementing universal single-payer coverage, thus leveling the playing field with their international competitors.

Posted by nullifidian
* * * *

Would I have the right to opt out of your POS system? Or is this another one of those liberties that will go away, once the liberals start figuring out how the hell it's going to be paid for, like Social Security and Medicare?

Don't worry, you'll probably in the next few years get your wish. Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it. Your government will give you the same quality health care as they provide in education, and just about every thing else they touch.

ps: Sounds like you have great coverage, sorry you'll have to give it up for something run by the government.

Posted by MSgt

off course the bitches come out in force about how awful the government is at everything.. well newsflash bunky..you are the government. Want something different get involved. Just because its something YOU don't like doesn't mean it sucks or is horrible.

Education is good if you are an involved parent and nurture your child within the system.. if you are a latch key parent with no involvement well too fucking bad.. your brood may or may not succeed but it gave YOU a great excuse to blame "them"

want an example of bad government or no government?

Try Mogadishu or Venezuela.

Dear Msgt:
How many members of the House and Senate have complained to you about their government health care?

*crickets chirping*

There's a fifth alternative. Take healthcare out of the hands of employers altogether by implementing universal single-payer coverage, thus leveling the playing field with their international competitors.

I can see it now: The War on Health." It doesn't take much imagination to see it will turn out like all the other wars.

How many members of the House and Senate have complained to you about their government health care?

*crickets chirping*

Posted by SamBarber
* * * *

They don't complain about their plumbing either. Or their telephones. Or a lot of things--we just don't talk about much, they and I.

But if you think we'll be getting the same health care Ted Kennedy does, you're having a crack dream. They have a nice pension, too--do you think it might be a little bit better than Social Security? Or not?

How come liberals never say, "have you ever heard a municipal worker complain about his health care?" Because I have--they have taxpayer-funded health care, and it sucks. How about soldiers? Ever hear a soldier or sailor complain about their health care? I sure have; I used to be one. And I'll fight tooth and nail to keep my coverage, over the kind they have. And THAT'S what's in store for all of us, when it becomes "free".

There's a fifth alternative. Take healthcare out of the hands of employers altogether by implementing universal single-payer coverage, thus leveling the playing field with their international competitors.

* * *

Wow. Well, you've come a long way in a short time. Just before 6, you were complaining that the money-grubbing capitalists were pushing the costs onto their poor workers. Only half an hour later, you're raising your own taxes and trading in your medical coverage so that Boeing can better compete with Airbus, and Ford with Hyundai.

RR reminds me how SS and Medicare was supposed to be universal old age insurance. Over $50 trillion in unbonded debt, the last I heard.

It should be called the War on Age.

Is there any level of government incompetency Nulli won't tolerate?

Take healthcare out of the hands of employers altogether by implementing universal single-payer coverage, thus leveling the playing field with their international competitors.

As the communists so ably demonstrated, to level the playing field, you have to make everybody poor.

People like Nulli are the government. They truly believe that anonymous bureaucrats in Washington can make better decisions regarding their lives, than they themselves can.

Funny thing is, in their case, they're right.

How can we as a nation morally justify not having a national health care program which covers all Americans?

Posted by moder8

Why would you expect me to pay for that? I guess you think I should pay your house and car insurance too. Hell, lets throw in your life insurance while we are at it.

Where does it end? People with more dependents and more sickness should pay a higher cost than a healthy single person. Buck up and take some responsibility for YOUR wife and childern.

"They truly believe that anonymous bureaucrats in Washington can make better decisions regarding their lives, than they themselves can."

You're a moron. As usual you don't quote any real poster, you just pull a strawman out your ass and then "refute" it.

"Is there any level of government incompetency Nulli won't tolerate?"

Ray and RightisRight obviously share the same methodology as well as the same love for corporations. The straw is flying today.

Sniper, if there is a hell, I am sure that selfish people such as yourself who only think of themselves and no else, will burn long and hot.

Buck up and take some responsibility for YOUR wife and childern.

Posted by Sniper
* * * *

Outrageous. Who do you think you're talking to?

You rightwing fucktards miss the point entirely. There are millions of uninsured children, and hardworking single parent households. To tell them to "take some responsibility" stinks of elitism and ignorance. To quote your hero Dick Cheney, "Go fuck yourselves."

There's a great deal Ray and I disagree about. In fact, we believe in opposite things. But at least he has the sack to put his money where his mouth is. You want to put MY money where YOUR mouth is.

And Moder8, where the hell do you get off? How is it "selfish" to believe that a man should take care of his own wife and kids before expecting the taxpayers to? If that's selfish, I guess I'm going to hell too.

The pussification of the left continues unabated. How big a house do you want, Moder8? How about food--should we buy that for you too? What is so magical about healthcare delivery that America should pick up the tab for all its citizens, but not water? Or groceries? Or rent? Godalmighty--it's not enough that you got somebody else to pay all but $550 out of a hundred thousand dollar medical bill--you're bitching it wasn't "free"?

If you think you're calling your own shots for your health care, you're a fool. Unless you have a few hundred grand lying around to pay your medical bill, you're at the mercy of what your insurance company will pay - and that will be determined by some $12/hr call center worker who gets paid extra to deny your claim.

Health insurance companies are in business to make a profit - which is fine, free-market and all. But keep it in mind - they don't care if you live or die, and they don't want to pay for your actual medical expenses. All they want to do is take your money.

There's no reason to think that a Government run plan would be any worse - we're not talking about Government doctors and nurses, we're talking about Government insurance. There's no reason to think that the Gov. can't withdraw a premium and reimburse healthcare providers just as well as anyone else.

Of course, it would mean the end of the massive fraud of Private Health Insurance. Gosh, that would really upset me.

You rightwing fucktards miss the point entirely. There are millions of uninsured children, and hardworking single parent households. To tell them to "take some responsibility" stinks of elitism and ignorance.

Posted by moder8

* * * *

I know. I'm one. And I've taken responsibility for my children, so that you won't have to.

No need to thank me. That's what a real man does.

"But at least he has the sack to put his money where his mouth is. You want to put MY money where YOUR mouth is."

More stupidity. The money is already being spent. The U.S. pays double in per-capita health costs. Corporate shills like you want it to continue to go to insurance and pharmaceutical companies rather than consumers.

"No need to thank me. That's what a real man does."

A "real man" doesn't say "let them eat cake." That's what selfish assholes do.

"Is there any level of government incompetency Nulli won't tolerate?"

Ray and RightisRight obviously share the same methodology as well as the same love for corporations. The straw is flying today.

Posted by nullifidian

He avoids the question. One must assume there is no limit to his tolerance of government incompetency.

I know. I'm one. And I've taken responsibility for my children, so that you won't have to.

No need to thank me. That's what a real man does.

~ReichisWrong

You make enuff enuff money to be able to afford to take care of yer kids and good fer you but to suggest fer a second that the huge numbers of people falling into bankrupcy annually over their inability to pay for medical issues in their families are all irresponsible does indeed reek of arrogance and elitism.

America's for-profit health care system stinks.

America becomes less of a democracy and more of a corporatocracy daily and all to the cheering of fools like Reich.

You are a sad excuse for a human being, Reich.

You are a typical "I got mine" Rethug.

You are pathetic inhumanity masquerading as responsiblity while supporting the corporate welfare state that robs the citizens of their right to dignity.

Yer an evil, fascist fucktard.

Be Well.

"He avoids the question."

Ask an intelligent question, rather than an asinine one, and you might get an answer.

Yer an evil, fascist fucktard.

Be Well.

Posted by dethspud
* * * *

Up until about 4 years ago, I was making about $35,000 a year. I managed to pay the bills without asking the good people in New York or Oregon to do it for me.

So kindly drop dead, bitch.

Because they settled for lower profits? Their problem was trying to maximize profits by building gas guzzlers. That worked for awhile.

Posted by nullifidian

Is that why their retirement fund and health care fund are in the shitter? All the time I thought it was thoes stupid bean counters not looking a few years ahead to when they would actualy have to pay thoes bennifits.

The money is already being spent. The U.S. pays double in per-capita health costs.

That only proves that the regulations and subsidies put in place from the time of Johnson have increased medical costs rather than decrease them as promised.

This is fundamental to human nature. When you subsidize something, you increase demand. Tax it and you get less.

You make enuff enuff money to be able to afford to take care of yer kids and good fer you but to suggest fer a second that the huge numbers of people falling into bankrupcy annually over their inability to pay for medical issues in their families are all irresponsible does indeed reek of arrogance and elitism.

* * *

By the way, Douchespud--guess what happens when a family falls into bankruptcy because of medical bills?

Poof. They go away. But good luck trying to bankrupt away tax bills. Won't happen. They would throw you in jail. Why not just live and let live? If you believe it works in Canada, good for you. If the Germans like high-speed trains and trolleys, good for them. If the Swiss like their militias and the French their cradle-to-grave welfare and the Japanese their nuclear plants atop earthquake fault lines, who am I to say they're wrong?

So many of you lefties pretend to be open minded and liberal, except when another point of view comes along--then you pull out the Nazi references, and the predictable douchebaggery of telling everyone else they're going to hell.

How about figuring out how to run your life, and let mine be? My taxes are high enough, without people like you climbing on.

As usual, the point is totally missed that THERE IS A COST FOR EVERYTHING. nothing is FREE and that means NOTHING!!! Somebody has to pay for the service. And, as usual, I read everybody telling us that the next person is the person who should pay.

Government systems stink. I am on both Tricare for Life as well as Medicare. And, guess what??? I still have to pay BUT, every year since I went on these, Tricare in 1980 and Medicare in 2002, the payments the government makes to the medical suppliers has gradually DECREASED to the point where we now find providers pulling out of the system. Reason??? they can make more $$$$$$ in the private market.

This has always been so too by the way. So, for those who believe a single payer system is going to solve our problems think again and be careful what you wish for. There is a cost for everything and health care is no different. when it becomes free the lines will all of a sudden increase dramatically and the service will probably decline. And, as that does the payments will also decrease and so it goes. (Want to see what FREE medical care looks like? Go to an inner city hospital emergency room and look at all those poor indigents who will pay nothing at all. We pay for that shit people, the tax payers pay for that shit. And, it will get way worse under universal care too, count on it!)

As for me, my private insurance is what I will continue to carry. (these private plans WILL NOT go away with the Universal plans suggested by the candidates) And, when the government single payer plan cuts the payments and the Drs opt out of those plans, my guess is I will still have pretty good medical and dental care. REASON????? I pay for what I get. As should everybody else too.

Ask an intelligent question, rather than an asinine one, and you might get an answer.

Posted by nullifidian

It was an intelligent question. It takes an ass to refuse to answer it.

Sniper, if there is a hell, I am sure that selfish people such as yourself who only think of themselves and no else, will burn long and hot.

Posted by moder8

Thoes ankle biters running around your house arn't mine, I took care of my three. In fact only one of the three was actualy mine. I guess it's about time you stepped forward and took care of yours.

"That only proves that the regulations and subsidies put in place from the time of Johnson have increased medical costs rather than decrease them as promised."


Doesn't prove anything. According to your logic the healthcare systems of Canada and Europe should be vastly more expensive than the U.S. They're not. They cost half the per-capita costs of the U.S. and cover everybody.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

A "real man" doesn't say "let them eat cake." That's what selfish assholes do.

Posted by nullifidian
* * * *

I say to-may-to, you say to-mah-to. If you want to have kids, take care of them. I've got my hands full with my own. Just because you're a liberal shouldn't automatically mean that you're lazy and don't want to provide for your own family. Necessarily.

On the other hand, maybe it does. There are plenty of working-class Americans who have enough self-respect they won't ask for Washington to pay their bills for them. And there are plenty of programs for the truly destitute to get help when they need it, and I'm all for those. But if my not wanting to pay more in taxes so that a family making $60,000 a year can buy a bigger SUV with the money they're currently spending on insurance deductibles makes me a Nazi, we've come a long way from the 1940's.

I pay for what I get. As should everybody else too.

Posted by farmerjohn
* * * *

Good post FJ. And everyone will get exactly what they pay for, just like now. If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it's free.

"It was an intelligent question. It takes an ass to refuse to answer it.

Posted by Ray"

It was a stupid fucking strawman, something you're good at.

It was a stupid fucking strawman, something you're good at.

Posted by nullifidian
* * * *

Try this one, then. How much more in taxes are you willing to pay for universal health care for everyone?

How much more should average Americans have to pay in taxes, so that Moder8 can keep the $550 in his pocket after his family racked up medical bills of six figures?

My physician said he was now working the hours he used to work as a young intern just to make costs meet. And a few years back I'm sure he was right there on the "pro-Bush" team with the "Republican attitude" and bucks to match -- but that came to a halt once Bush started screwing over the doctors and hospitals too by slashing their fees.

So now anyone who wants to keep their long time physician who is in this 'conceirge program" has to pay another $1800 out of pocket every year and they get nothing more for it at all. My doctor was always available when you needed him and I if I decide to stay in this program I will get nothing for it -- except screwed out of $1800 a year I did not have to pay before.

To say I'm pissed off is putting it mildly.

Posted by CalifChris
* * * *

That's awfully empathetic of you, to feel your doctor's pain. Let's assume everything he told you is true (and not something like his malpractice premiums have gone way up, or he's having trouble making his ARM payments on his million-dollar home). So why are you so anxious to have the same institution responsible for Medicare to take over the entire healthcare system?

Did it occur to you, that the reason certain payments to doctors are being cut, is because the money isn't there? That there isn't enough tax dollars coming in to Medicare to pay for it all? Doesn't that suggest ANYTHING to you, in terms of how much it really costs? You already have 2.7% of your pay going to Medicare--for a benefit you don't even receive--how much more do you want, after the government assumes the responsibility of you, your employer, your hospital, and your doctor?

I can't get over it. Why so many people believe that health care would IMPROVE after the government takes it over. Staggers the imagination.

It was a stupid fucking strawman, something you're good at.

Posted by nullifidian

I'll rephrase the question. Is there such thing as government failure to you? So far it looks like the answer is no.

Just got through paying the last bill for the birth of my daughter in January. Overall, paid about $1,700 out of pocket. Plan pays 80%.

My monthly premiums are low though...paying less than $200 for a family of 4.

Posted by Pirate

This is why many are perfectly happy with the current system.

Mine pays about 50% with premiums nearly $1000/m. Am I gonna drop it or change it? No, not with "pre-existing conditions".


The whole thing is broken. The docs know it, the hospitals know it, the ins companies know it.


Recently, my wife had a procedure performed by her doc at a surgery center. The bill for the surgery suite was $9300 for the 3 hour stay. Insurance paid $2500 and said the center could bill us $7200. So I get a bill from them for $6300. I called and asked what the true final bill was that I needed to write the check for... After all the stuff about in network and out of network and this and that, I owed them $960. I then asked what they would have done if I'd just sent them a check for the invoice amount. She chuckled and said I MIGHT have gotten a refund.


While I'm glad to have gotten off for less, there is nothing healthy about the current healthcare system.

I can't get over it. Why so many people believe that health care would IMPROVE after the government takes it over. Staggers the imagination.

Especially when government has been trying to "improve" health care for 50 years.

RIR

Did it occur to you, that the reason certain payments to doctors are being cut, is because the money isn't there?

The money is there. Bush just hates Medicare because he hates every program that has been set up to help average Americans and would get rid of it, SS, and every other thing that he and his millionaire pals don't need for themselves.

Bush has trillions for his war, doesn't he? He always seems to find the billions to fund the bucks to pay his war profiteering Republican donors for their cost plus, no bid Iraq reconstruction contracts with no problem. You remember those contracts, don't you, RiR, the ones where nothing ever gets built but there is no accounting for a single dime of where the money went.

While I'm glad to have gotten off for less, there is nothing healthy about the current healthcare system.

Posted by TedBaxter
* * * *

Well, except for your wife, thankfully. And it sounds like you paid out of pocket under a thousand bucks for surgery that was about ten times that.

So I'll pose to you the same question: how much should my taxes go up, so you could keep the $960?

Bullshit, RiR.


Surgery suite only, that didn't include the actual surgery or anesthesia.


The surgery suite bill was hyperinflated, you are not that dense, are you?

CalifChris, this is one of those rare issues where I am in agreement with you. GWB has hundreds of billions to throw away on his elective war, but lord forbid that money ever be used to help regular Americans, and anyone other than the wealthy and the well connected. Trying to explain that to self serving rightwing assholes is a waste of time .

Chris

War profiteering aside, do you know that the undbonded debt for SS and Medicare is somewhere over $50 trillion? And this is before the wave of baby boomers hit retirement age. This deficit began building up long before Bush. I don't know if it can last much more that twenty years.

So I'll pose to you the same question: how much should my taxes go up, so you could keep the $960?

Posted by rightisright

not a penny if you incorporate...remember corporations have more rights than people:>)

CalifChris, this is one of those rare issues where I am in agreement with you. GWB has hundreds of billions to throw away on his elective war, but lord forbid that money ever be used to help regular Americans, and anyone other than the wealthy and the well connected. Trying to explain that to self serving rightwing assholes is a waste of time .

Posted by moder8
* * * *

I'll bet I give more to charity than you do. I'm not willing to bet money on it, given what happened in the past between us--I'm sure you understand. But going on a blog and militating for national health care isn't likely to get you into heaven, your sanctimonious BS aside. Medicare is BROKE. It's bankrupt. Today, right now, they're insolvent--they can't pay their bills. The government can't even get it right for people over the age of 65--and you dumbasses want to have them take it over for you, and your families?
No thank you. So many of you--rightfully, by the way--protest and attack Bush's spending, but don't mind tacking on another two trillion dollars a year in federal taxes and spending. Unbelievable. It's truly beyond belief, how you can look at the staggering ineptitude of the Bush Administration and the Democratic Congress on energy, on inflation, on spending, on defense, and say--we need you guys to figure out our health care.
And you think we righties are the stupid ones? Godalmighty.

CalifChris, this is one of those rare issues where I am in agreement with you. GWB has hundreds of billions to throw away on his elective war, but lord forbid that money ever be used to help regular Americans, and anyone other than the wealthy and the well connected. Trying to explain that to self serving rightwing assholes is a waste of time .

Posted by moder8
* * * *

Hmmmm. Let's see now. We have an "elective war"--which your Dem Congress just rubber-stamped for another year, by the way--which costs "hundreds of billions" over five years or so.

And on the other hand, we have healthcare spending in the US, which ran $2.7 trillion for last year. Which is far greater than the total US federal budget, and is about 20% of GDP.

That's not even apples to apples. More like apples to orchards. It's like saying, gee, if only the Pentagon didn't spend a hundred dollars on a hammer, we could send America's kids to college for free.

How BIG do you want the government to get? No thanks. This is something worth losing elections over, time after time after time. We have enough nanny statism, without needing another $3,000,000,000,000 worth, every year.

maybe if they just could find Rummies 910 trillions ~ everything would work out okay:>)

Yeah, I think you're stupid. And selfish. And arrogant. And probably greedy as hell. At least that is what is reflected in your posts.

not a penny if you incorporate...remember corporations have more rights than people:>)

Posted by Bani
* * * *

News to me. Corporations don't pay taxes? I learn something every day.

Well RR. I think we can agree there are some basic things we agree on. The near future will settle our differences on gold and silver.

Yeah, I think you're stupid. And selfish. And arrogant. And probably greedy as hell. At least that is what is reflected in your posts.

Posted by moder8
* * * *

Hey, it's not me who complained that it cost me $550 out of pocket for $100,000 worth of bills. That makes you a greedy SOB, not me. I really hope your son's okay, and that he's not pissed off, like you, that he got a hundred grand worth of life-saving medical care for less money than a Blu-Ray disc player. But by all means, call me a selfish bastard if it gets you through the day.
One of my favorite charities is St. Jude Hospital. Look into it, and maybe you'll realize your life isn't really as lousy as it could be, and you could be thankful, instead of resentful. The kids in there have a better view of life than you do.

Yeah, I think you're stupid. And selfish. And arrogant. And probably greedy as hell. At least that is what is reflected in your posts.

Posted by moder8

Yet Moder8 wants others to be forced to pay his medical expenses so he can live on the cheap. Aren't demands like that stupid, arrogant, greedy and selfish? Isn't that robbery? At least it seems that way to me.

Well RR. I think we can agree there are some basic things we agree on. The near future will settle our differences on gold and silver.

Posted by Ray
* * *

There are. I've told you before that your positions are well-thought through. And I'll always give a guy credit for putting his money where his beliefs lay, which you seem to have done.

But the resistance line of gold is at $950, where there is massive central bank and institutional selling. Get over that again, we have something to talk about.

I don't complain about the cost of my son's healthcare. I am thankful for it. And it horrifies me to think that millions of American children do not have the same protection. Some form of Universal Healthcare system is necessary, whether you want to help pay for it or not.

Corporations tax free money, too:>)

I don't complain about the cost of my son's healthcare. I am thankful for it. And it horrifies me to think that millions of American children do not have the same protection.
Posted by moder8

* * * *

In that case, I misunderstood you. Apologies.

Moder8

No thinking person thought you were unwilling to pay what you needed to for your family.

I guess it's easier for some people to be obtuse.

As highlighted on 60 Minutes tonight many dirt poor Haitians receive better health care than Americans. Ours is the most expensive and often half baked. MRI in Japan $98, MRI in USA $1,200.

Yet Moder8 wants others to be forced to pay his medical expenses so he can live on the cheap. Aren't demands like that stupid, arrogant, greedy and selfish? Isn't that robbery? At least it seems that way to me.

Posted by Ray

No,no,no! You don't understand Socialism. They just want to take the money you spend on your overpriced health care insurance and spend it more wisely than you. That way they have control of more of the individuals money. When you control the payments sent to the health care industry you control the price. Then they can pay for healthcare for people who don't pay for insurance. This is not greed it compasion. It's not really your money anyway. It's not like you deserve it anymore than the next guy.

"Some form of Universal Healthcare system is necessary, whether you want to help pay for it or not."

Well... Hmmmm...

Questions then that beg to be asked:

- How much are you willing to pay, that is, have extracted from your paycheck?

- What choices will you have in this system?

- What sort of penalties will be levied, if any, for those who voluntarily lead unhealthy or high-risk lifestyles (smokers, gluttons, those who participate in extreme sports, etc.)?

- Will these be additional payouts for the elderly, as it is they who are the highest users of healthcare?

- What will the cost be per size of household?

- Will insurance "premiums" be based on income?

- Will there be caps on benefits received/procedures performed?

These are just a very few items of concern. There is no easy fix.

Sure you can point to the Euro nations as good examples of working, national healthcare systems. But the populations of each Euro nation is comparable to the populations of various states in the US, so there are fewer people to administer to. And the tax rates across Europe are twice what they are in the US.

TANSTAAFL!

(Of course, there is the little matter of this fucking, useless, wasteful war being fought on two fronts that is accomplishing absolutely nothing fucking at all except keeping the morticians and the arms makers busy - 100s of billions that could otherwise be used to provide each and every person in the US, even those here illegally, with superlative healthcare - and the fucking doctors could still have there fucking new Mercedes each year and their fucking greens fees covered. It grates mightily that the politicos who run this country tell us we can't fucking afford healthcare, no no no, but we can afford to piss away 100s of billions on the fucking WoT.)

Contrast:

I am a single male, 50+, an independent contractor, in good health, and carry my own insurance. It is high POS and cost me $322 a month, with all the standard copays, no dental, vision, STD, LTD, life insurance, etc.

I may get hired by the company I am contracting with. If hired, and I take the healthcare package offered by the company (which is one of the largest in the world), my monthly premium will be around $30 a month, to include everything - medical, dental, vision, STD, LTD, life insurance, etc.

WTF, mate?

not a penny if you incorporate...remember corporations have more rights than people:>)

Posted by Bani

If a corp dosen't make any money they don't pay taxes but they don't get a check or food stamps from the government like people that don't pay taxes do.

How much did EXXON pay in taxes last year? They did pay taxes.

I just looked it up, it was $30 billion.

not a penny if you incorporate...remember corporations have more rights than people:>)

Posted by Bani

This is deceptive. Corporations pass their tax burden on to the Tax Payers who own them. The owners or share holders pay tax on every dime of profit that is not reinvested in the business.

And Rob-don't you think Exxon factors in those taxes into the price they charge-the consumers, not the corporation pays the taxes. If the Paulies got thier way, Exxon wouldn't even have to bother handling the paperwork.

"Japanese pay about 4% of their income of health care.
But what do they know, anyways?"

Posted by northguy3

Pretty damn disingenuous of y'a there, northguy3.

Quote numbers from the rest of the article, such as:

"Those covered under Employee Health Insurance pay 20% of their medical costs when hospitalized and 30% of the costs for out-patient care. Co-payments may also be required for prescription drugs"

20% of medical costs when hospitalized can be quite significant.

And though they pay out X number of yen for monthly premiums, this hardly represents the true costs of healthcare for a given person or a given malady.

The slack still has to come from somewhere. Doesn't matter what country you are in.

A few years ago, my appendix blew up. Final costs were over 40k (I was in the hospital for 5 days). I personally paid out around $700. Plus my time off during recovery was paid through STD and LTD, a few thousand dollars worth there. Did the premiums I paid into the system cover all this, somewhere north of 50k? Hardly. My entire lifetime of paying healthcare premiums up to that point would probably not have covered the full costs of my blown-up appendix. The slack was taken up elsewhere, in this case, from the pool of monies paid in by subscribers who will not have any significant claims on their health insurance.

Could you imagine everybody having blown-up appendixes in their lifetime, or any significant surgery? The system would collapse.

and I take the healthcare package offered by the company (which is one of the largest in the world), my monthly premium will be around $30 a month, to include everything - medical, dental, vision, STD, LTD, life insurance, etc.

WTF, mate?

Posted by ZOT

I guess you think that is free health care. If the company wasn't paying the preimum your hourly rate would go up a bunch.

Their ain't no free lunch, someone is paying the medical bills and here in the good-old USA they are real high because every time something happens there is a huge lawsuit and the survivors win the lottery. Also, many poor people use the emergency room for their primary health care and that is picked up by thoes of us who can pay along with a bill that goes to the county for indegent care. Another place your local taxes go.

If you want to live a few years longer it will cost you. Just don't expect me to pick up the tab for you.

I didn't make all thoes kids you whine about all the time either. I try to keep track of where I put my thing and I take responsibility for the kids I make, unlike many in this world.

My health care costs are making my budget sick...

someone is paying the medical bills and...every time something happens there is a huge lawsuit and the survivors win the lottery. Also, many poor people use the emergency room for their primary health care


One reason for high costs is that the AMA is no different than a union. They lobby to restrict entry into med schools, and then there's "usual and customary fees" (implemented by Medicare) which have increased at several times the inflation rate.

To attribute the increase in costs to malpractice suits is beyond ignorance - it's stupidity.

The reason poor people go to emergency rooms is that they can not be denied treatment as private physicians will do.

I was taught some effective self-care home remedies, yet when a kid has a fever it's a good idea to see a doctor.

Yo, Snipey! Didj'a bother to read any of my posts?

Are you like learning impaired?

Didj'a miss the term "contrast"?

Was I whining about all those kids I made? (FTR, the only kid I have is the one I adopted and he has 24 claws. Wanna meet him?)

Do you understand TANSTAAFL, which I used above?

zot, If you keep your pecker under control, good for you.

There are millions of people that don't and I have no idea why I should pay for them. When I say you should take responsibility for your actions, I mean everyone not just you. Is that too hard of a concept for you to grasp?

........Sniper .........is proof positive that Americans.... are on the whole.......to stupid to understand, appreciate or administer a public health system...........

.........we'll just keep getting ripped off......because the dumbing down of America......has progressed to a degree ......where the corporations who rule this nation......can get away with anything........

..........socialized health care....

......is good enough for Bush, McCain, Clinton and Obama........

.......but NOT good enough for YOU........sap......

Damn ski, you have a good arguement there.

I guess you don't realize that companies have a death grip on us because of big government. They get favors from the people in power by sending them money. Works for both parties, not just the republicans.

Don't you understand that big government is the problem, not the fix?

***** Don't you understand that big government is the problem, not the fix?

Posted by Sniper ******

......its not a question of "big" or "small" government.......its a question of good or bad, effective or ineffective government.......

...........we have 5 federal inspectors for all the poisoned toys coming from China.........too big or too small ??........

..........we have a more expensive military than the rest of the world combined .......too big or too small ??.........

........the rest of the Western World has more socialized medicine than us, but their people are in better health.........are they just smarter than we are ??........it must seem so............

........look at yourself........you fear "socialized" medicine, yet the very leaders who would keep it from you, are enjoying its benefits......does that tell you something.??.....

........look at yourself........you fear "socialized" medicine, yet the very leaders who would keep it from you, are enjoying its benefits......does that tell you something.??.....

Posted by skizziks

Ya, we need to overhaul the system and get them off of the tit.

Do you realize they voted that for themselves? Do you realize them made 'being elected' a lifetime project? Do you realize they are becoming very rich at your expense? Do you realize they live in a socalistic society that is being paid for by all the private sector workers in the US?

I have known this for a long time and I am getting tired of supporting all the leaches in the country.

Are you a leach or a worker? Do you expect to get more out than you put in? I guess you think you can put 4 inches into your wife, take three strokes, and pull out twelve inches. Dream on shortie. You only get out what you put in.

.........some things we can agree on are TERM LIMITS for Congress and Senate......

.........fundraising limits for campagning and ..........
.
........make lobbying a capital offense...........

......it would not solve any problems, but would be the start of finding people who would be finding solutions........

Skizziks,

The lobbyists are the only people who know anything about specific issues...that's why they're there. The rest of the population is to lazy or stupid or busy to find out about these things...We all need lobbyists, and we are at their mercy.

One subtlety I noticed in the article is the presumption that people "need routine doctor visits"....

This is patently nonsense. You need a doctor when you're sick....period. You need a doctor to do certain screening checks....that's it. People go to the doctor MUCH too often, and we all pay for it....at least those of us who pay taxes and insurance premiums.

The reason health care is more expensive now is because what is considered standard, necessary medecine has expanded astronomically and the amount of treatable conditions has expanded astronomically.

For example: I haven't gone to the dentist for teeth-cleaning in over twenty years....I use over-the-counter products which have kept my teeth white, cavity-free, and my gums healthy....I don't need a dentist to confirm this....Anyway, now I went to the dentist because one of my teeth broke (metal in a corn-dog) and had to be pulled....I go there, they pull the tooth, clean my teeth ("the plan pays for it", they said), and they schedule me for another cleaning in 6-months, because it if free too....

So, I've been paying for dental insurance (actually, my employer has taken money they could have given to me and instead paid my dental insurance) for two teeth-cleanings a year for the rest of my life, when I patently don't need them. Same for x-rays....And the insurance pays for the implant, but not the crown on top of it!

So, all my working life, the dental insurance industry has been taking money from me and paying for stuff I didn't need, calling it a "necessity", and essentially paying for people who DO need dental care but DON'T pay for it or for insurance....It is theft, pure and simple.

Expand this to an entire, federally-run monopoly, and you start to see how money would be taken from those who have it and given to people who don't, whether or not they need it!

I should have had available to me the option to have no dental insurance (thereby paying for surgery myself), or a surgery only option, or a routine treatment option. Instead, they just take my money and end up using it to cover expenses for people who didn't even buy the insurance!

Maybe it's a matter of relative values.

Not too long ago in Japan, a tonsillectomy cost about the same amount as having a flat tire fixed. If the rates could only be brought in line, there'd be no problem.

Maybe the M.D. should figure out how many tonsillectomies he could perform a day, compare them to the number of tires he could change a day, evaluate how many opportunities per day the market would provide him to do either, and select his career accordingly.

If he's not intelligent enough to figure this out, he should be relegated to the M.D. career by default.

Troglodytes who mouthe platitudes about Real Men and Personal Responsibility need to reread:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Capitals mine. But I do think that preamble - a scrap of paper in some circles, a socialist document in others - the Founding Fathers set up a rationale for universal (i.e. U.S.) health care. herm

I'm very much a "personal responsibility" type of guy on most things. I would privatize Social Security or at least let whoever wanted to opt out of it, partially or fully. I feel that I could invest that money better and get a better return by assuming risk, something the SSA cannot do.

So I'm no socialist by any stretch. But I don't think health insurance compares to gas and groceries. Nobody turns you down for buying groceries. Nobody comes and take your groceries if they decide that you aren't a profitable customer or finds out you have a medical condition they didn't know about.

I have awesome coverage myself. But when I hear people say bitching the government taking their money and giving it to people who don't work or whatever, I usually agree with them. Then I proceed to bitch about the government taking my money to pay for educating kids whose parents are too lazy to pay for it themselves when I don't have any of my own.

I'm not sincere about it, even though a lot of voucher advocates might agree with that. I recognize that as a society, we all collectively gain from everyone getting a base line education and the costs associated with doing that is a burden which should be borne collectively.

I'm starting to think healthcare is morphing into something like that. It wasn't that way thirty years ago, but it soon will be if costs continue to rise.

But maybe we don't need to socialize the health insurance industry. We just need to monopolize how people get signed up.

In the stock market if an investor wants to decrease risk they have the option of buying a heavily regulated product called a Mutual Fund which spreads risk across many stocks and securities. They must be bought from a broker or fund company.

Maybe we don't need the government to take over the health care industry, just take control for who they insure. If people were packaged into groups, like a stocks in a mutual fund, or allow groups to self organize, then the insurance companies could bid on the groups for business with the premium for the entire group based on their groups "price".

Unprofitable "funds" can be reshuffled by the "brokerage". Profitable groups might be traded to another company for a profit. But if the groups are large enough premium costs should go down because the risks are spread, just like the stocks in a mutual fund and nobody would be denied coverage. All for about the same amount of regulation that we put on the stock exchange.

Sorry for the tome. I got on a roll. :-)

Private Social Security or allowing people to Opt out of the Governmental social Security is a DUMB DUMB DUMB move. It is taking funds away from the Governmental social Security fund. Say if 1/3 decided to Opt out of the FICA and put it into a Private Fund. Congratulations You are just making the SOcial Security funds deplete faster than if those 1/3 did not opt out. Why not raise it from 91,000 to say 200 thousand. Wouldn't You see a Marked improvement on solvency. Oh and I can not believe I am talking about that High Class hoity toity Math. Someone shoot Me.

Larry Mohr

Oh and I can not believe I am talking about that High Class hoity toity Math. Someone shoot Me.

Here's some hoity toity math for you, Larry:

Assuming I live according to the actuarial tables for an American male, I have already paid in more than I could possible draw. And I have 13 more years of paying in to do before I can hope to get full SS benefits.

It would seem fair that I get at least an even return on my "investment". I won't even get 50% of it back. A simple money money market account does better than that!

I have a friend who is a doctor working at an HMO, and he says that a side effect of all this is that when people do go to the doctor, they refuse to be rushed through the appointment. Whereas in the past, the patients would take "well, let's see how it goes and you can come back in if it gets worse", now they demand a full battery of tests and all done in one visit to cut the chance of multiple visit charges. They approach it more than ever as a case of wanting to get their "money's worth", and who can blame them?

People also are coming in with their conditions almost on the verge of causing permanenent harm, after putting off the visit due to the costs. Also, he sees people waiting until they have 4 or 5 things wrong with them -- an abcess here, a planter wart there, a sore elbow, a rash -- and then coming in and re