""Autoworkers, GM Reach Agreement"""

Not to build shitty cars anymore?

No, not to build shitty cars in America anymore.

ITS GM, they will always build shitty cars no matter where they build them at...

I was going to post a reply to the first two entries here but I don't want to get into a heated debate on why I think it's important to support American Owned and manufactured products.

Agree to disagree I guess

Make that the first THREE posts!

Wow, After weeks of negotiation and strike looming GM could not come to terms but lets em go on strike for 2 days and they agree.

Real great negotiating managers there, about as great as all the managers making decisions.

It's the unions fault I tell ya, they wouldn't agree to wage cuts, offshoring, no pensions and no overtime.

GM

Well, GM has divested itself of the health care bill by transferring the multi-billion dollar health care trust fund to the Union, which shall in the future adminster it and provide for health care delivery to members and retirees. This was an expense that the overseas car manufacturers do not have.

It bodes ill for union members. But this automobile assembly industry here has always been vulnerable since the union rather than value of the skill sets of the workers has determined pay levels here. These compensation levels could not be maintained in the presence of competition.

What's a semi-skilled laborer worth nowadays? Not much. He is "fungible" and readily replaceable.

There just isn't enough money available in the industry to continue this level of compensation. The union members need to make the concessions to stretch out the process until the industry collapses, or else make sufficient concessions to enable the industry to survive. It still carries the burden of outlandish pensions for those who had been semi-skilled workers. The cupboard is close to being bare. For what other kinds of jobs are these people qualified?

What's extinct? The passenger pigeon. The U.S. steel worker. Is the U.S. automobile worker next?

why I think it's important to support American Owned and manufactured products.

Posted by _2112_ at 2007-09-26 03:04 PM | Reply

I did my best to buy American, but was very disappointed, and sucked dry by repairs. My Honda was built in Ohio by Americans, and my next car (Ridgeline) will be built in Ontario by Canucks.

Toyota has, I think, 11 assembly plants in the US and dozens of other factories, turning out engines and components. Plus a few hundred American suppliers.

These are Americans building exceptional products. The only variable seems to be that the senior management are Japanese. Oh, and they have not been infested by unions.

Unions Fault (TM).


You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of f-ing parrots.

I was going to post a reply to the first two entries here but I don't want to get into a heated debate on why I think it's important to support American Owned and manufactured products.

Agree to disagree I guess

You're not the only one who feels like that. In terms of autos, I have always purchased cars made by US companies with the highest percent of US made major components.

I posed a question to the illustrious members of the DR the other night.....who owns/leases cars made by American workers, in America and by companies that a HQ in America? Don't all answer to quick now.

I DO...two such cars.....and ALWAYS have....never deviated.

Well, I guess it's not such a bad deal after all. From what I hear, many of the retired people oppose it and wil probably lobby active members to vote it down. Hopefully it will not be voted down. I don't know what else can be done.

We buy older GM Vehicles around here. For one they are built better(New Cars don't have TRUE bumpers) More metal and less platic in older GM and they seem to be built better. Of course The old man owns a Toyota pick up one of those small jobbies. One I could drive 100 pounds ago.

Larry

From what I hear, many of the retired people oppose it and wil probably lobby active members to vote it down.

Posted by member2586 at 2007-09-26 04:43 PM | Reply

It will pass. GM is offering a $3,000 bonus to every employee if it passes.

After weeks of negotiation and strike looming GM could not come to terms but lets em go on strike for 2 days and they agree.

That's why strikes always need to be legal.

Oh, and they have not been infested by unions.

Posted by vernon

Have we ever met a bushie who wanted to pay a living wage ?

Posted by YoMeLIB at 2007-09-26 05:26 PM

Have we ever met a bushie who wanted to pay a living wage ?

It's times like these when one ponders who really walked with all of the cash meant to "rebuild Iraq"

FOLLOW THE MONEY. Someone wants to write a book and make millions and retire? HERE YA GO!

Now all they have to do is design a RELIABLE car.

Gee, WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR AND WHY?????

GM, because they were obviously going to be too stinking reliable and a bargain compared to $3/gallon gasoline. The Oil Companies and Dealers were scarred shitless, because there's very little to replace through the life of an electric car and oil costs more than recharging your batteries right now. They want you stuck with internal combustion engines and oil until it runs out. They already own the other technologies but refuse to market it until the oil is consumed.

FUCKING LOWLIFE CRIMINALS.

"WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR AND WHY"


When will people be done with that?
The short of it is market research said people were not going to buy them. They were too expensive to buy and maintain. They lack performance they lack nostalgia and its hard to get people exited about a car that cant go on road trips.

The last production run of GM EV1's had an
had an estimated per unit cost of $80K. The
EV1's were lease only. They will be going
hybrid.

S-Gator,

Expensive first cost, limited range, cheap to operate. Great for a daily commute, worthless for a two week vacation.

California electric car mandate was driven more by a need for clean air technology than commute economics. At the time it was cheaper to operate a gasoline powered car, but then gasoline skyrocketed.

GM planted a new Chairman on the California Airboard and he promptly killed the 1% electric car mandate. GM's Delco battery barely worked for one year and was replaced with an Ovshensky battery. GM & Oil Companies bought Stanford Ovshensky's battery technology, which would last the life of the car, and took it off the market.

Like the story of leaded gasoline, the Corporate bottom line drives Government policy, not the life and prosperity of human beings. We do not live in a Democracy.

Oh, and they have not been infested by unions.

Posted by vernon

Have we ever met a bushie who wanted to pay a living wage ?

Posted by YoMeLIB at 2007-09-26 05:26 PM | Reply

You should ask the thousands and thousands of auto workers at Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Isuzu and other car makers in the United States.

Are they feeding their children with food stamps?

Jackass.

BFD!

And they gave away the coffers with this agreement--The Union will handle the health care to the workers and the GM folks will just pay into "their" system of corruption.

That way when the coffer is bare--they can sue the Union--or themselves for voting for this kind of crap.

Go Union--stupid is as stupid does.....


Murphy

pussies and cowards belong to unions... be a real American and make it on your own!

I'm sure that "Deauxbot" eschews roads, inoculation against deadly diseases, his public education, social security and medicare assistance payments for his parents, the internet (oops!), etc.

He makes it "on [his] own"!

The electric car is probably perfect for people living in the Presidio that spend their days going from poetry reading to poetry reading, shopping at the local organic foods store, or transiting to and from protest rallies. They are less perfect for getting around the midwest or the mountains in the middle of a winter snowstorm with two kids and a wife, something my GMC Yukon Denali excells at.

Don't get me wrong, I am all about exhibiting rational consumer behavior. In Houston, you can get gas for more than $.10 off the average cost at Citgo if you pay cash. I think Hugo Chavez is a facist/communist scumbag, (kind of like Hitler mixed with Castro and a sprinkling of Idi Amin) but you bet your ass I'll buy gas from his company if it is cheaper. If an electric car could perform all the functions my Yukon does, without incurring any additional costs, you bet I'd go for it. I'd love to be able to spend more money on me and less on Chavez or the Saudi royal fmaily.

My last foreign car was a 1997 Honda civic when I was in college. Since then I have owned a Ford Explorer, a Jeep Liberty, a GMC Envoy, and a GMC Yukon. I am currently in the market for a new car to replace the Yukon, which has about 65k miles on it. I know that at some point I'm going to have to start paying for upkeep so I'm in the market for something new. I want another Yukon, or Tahoe, but my wife wants and MDX. Based on what I have read here, I might be more inclined to go with the MDX, despite the fact it is a total chick car. What say all you autophiles?

Oh, and they have not been infested by unions.

Posted by vernon

Have we ever met a bushie who wanted to pay a living wage ?

Posted by YoMeLIB at 2007-09-26 05:26 PM | Reply

You should ask the thousands and thousands of auto workers at Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Isuzu and other car makers in the United States.

Are they feeding their children with food stamps?

Jackass.

and you should ask the other what 80 something percent of the workers that do not belong to a union. union members are what down to 12% of the workforce now?

i used to pick up parts at a gm facility in charlotte, nc. each dock door was manned by one person, if there was freight to be loaded at that door that person was responsible for loading it, if there wasnt then they just sat there ready a book or playing games or whatever on a laptop. one hardly working employee told me he was taking online courses between loads. not only is this inefficient but these folks are being paid very well to do, well nothing. this example is one of many why unions, and their workers are just bad for business.

"In terms of autos, I have always purchased cars made by US companies with the highest percent of US made major components."

Wow, then you really don't know what you've been missing! However, the honesty of your racism in this day and age is refreshing. (Though misguided. One less auto building job in the U.S. translates into about 3 higher paying white collar jobs here .. which is why the descendants of auto workers now own or rent homes twice the size of their grandparents, and why our employment rate is the lowest in the world. Furthermore, that plant job that used to be in Detroit is now keeping a family of 12 in China alive! A worthy trade-off even if the fallacy about depressing U.S. wages were true.)

Both the company and the union will now go back to sleep and pretend that their problems do not exists. Maybe both managers and union leaders can retire and run to Tahiti before the whole house of cards falls apart.

Squarebird, you are an idiot!!!

The MDX is alright, but I test drove a turbo RDX not long ago. Not quite Cayenne performance, but still kinda fun for an SUV.

These unions are killing America.

GM only has market cap of $21 billion yet they have to pay $35 billion into a healthcare plan? Huh?!!

GM has no shot against Toyota and I am confident they will go BK because of these unions and their insane demands. They keep theatening to shut down companies with their unreasonable demands and then wonder why more and more companies are contracting or building plants overseas.

This deal is nothing more than a Band Aid on a gunshot wound.

"My last foreign car was a 1997 Honda civic when I was in college. Since then I have owned a Ford Explorer, a Jeep Liberty, a GMC Envoy, and a GMC Yukon. I am currently in the market for a new car to replace the Yukon, which has about 65k miles on it. I know that at some point I'm going to have to start paying for upkeep so I'm in the market for something new. I want another Yukon, or Tahoe, but my wife wants and MDX. Based on what I have read here, I might be more inclined to go with the MDX, despite the fact it is a total chick car. What say all you autophiles?"

Why ruin 10 years of good decesions?

i used to pick up parts at a gm facility in charlotte, nc. each dock door was manned by one person, if there was freight to be loaded at that door that person was responsible for loading it, if there wasnt then they just sat there ready a book or playing games or whatever on a laptop. one hardly working employee told me he was taking online courses between loads. not only is this inefficient but these folks are being paid very well to do, well nothing. this example is one of many why unions, and their workers are just bad for business.

Posted by scooter28054 at 2007-09-27 10:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

Fucking idiot here!!!

Unions don't control manpower, the Company does, so before you blame maybe you should get enough understanding on how business's actually work.

Moron.

Though misguided. One less auto building job in the U.S. translates into about 3 higher paying white collar jobs here ..

You are another stupid ass moron!

One less auto union job here means 5 other white collar jobs are lossed here in the US.

Not including the surrounding area job loss.

They keep theatening to shut down companies with their unreasonable demands and then wonder why more and more companies are contracting or building plants overseas.

Another idiot, where are these guys coming from, the Bush school of no child left behind.

Yes, it appears yet again we have a poster who doesn't know shit about trade and offshoring and what is threatening and what is not.

Unreasonable demands??? LOL!!!!!!

Unions don't control manpower, the Company does, so before you blame maybe you should get enough understanding on how business's actually work.

I don't claim to know details of dealing with unions but friends of mine who have managed at UPS have told me that if, for instance, a manager picks up a package and places it on a conveyor belt then they get a grievence filed because it is taking work away from the union workers.

In that instance, it doesn't sound like the company is controling manpower.

Perhaps I'm assuming incorrectly, but the example provided by Scooter suggests that the company can't change that "ineffeciency" because the union prevents it. I'm not taking that position but rather interpreting it that way.

Decisions.

Good thing I'm good with numbers cuz words I a'int.

Eberly,

a manager picks up a package and places it on a conveyor belt then they get a grievence filed because it is taking work away from the union workers.

This is bull shit. Now if a manager was loading packages on the conveyor belt a grievence could be filed.

Simply picking one up is crap.

Managers cannot perform the job of the contracted labor and that has over rule statements depending on the situation.

I don't claim to know details of dealing with unions but friends of mine who have managed at UPS

Wasted managers if they don't know their rules of the Union!

After every union contract our company managers must know the contract inside and out. Most time the managers know more than the actual union stewards.

It has been my observation that at least 90% of the people that HATE Unions don't even have a clear understanding as to why. They just hate them cuz thats what their pappy taught them.

Of the 10% that THINK they know why they hate Unions 100% of them are enjoying things like:

40 hour work week
employee health care (at least partial)
Workers Compensation Insurance
Unemployment Benefits (if needed)

oh yeah and safe and healthy working condition.




This message brought to you by the people that gave YOU the WEEKEND - Unions!!!


I understand that Absolute Power tends to Corrupt, however take away Unions altogether and watch the current standards of safety and compensation in this country's workplace deteriorate to that of 3rd world status in less than a generation.

Moneywar, what Union are you affiliated with?

I am IBEW Local #354, although I have been in Management for several years. I hold Masters Licenses in 4 States.

Fraternally,

2112

It has been my observation that at least 90% of the people that HATE Unions don't even have a clear understanding as to why. They just hate them cuz thats what their pappy taught them.

Everything I have ever said about unions is based on what former union workers and managers of union employees have told me.

Doesn't mean I have actual truth because it is hearsay. Both positive and negative information.

Also brought to you by the unions.

collapse of airline industry
collapse of automotive industry.
benefits that destroy companies.

Teachers strikes.

Higher living costs.
Poor workmanship.

Teamsters.

Unions thugs.
Broken legs.
Union pins made in china.

1 man working 14 watching.

L&I (Who don't seem to fine union shops).

The ultimate bully.




That should piss'em off sufficiently.
MMMMM overstatement.

hearsay, yeah, that's what I form most of my opinions on in this world.

Lots easier than actually learning the facts.

Salamandargator,

You seem to fit into the 90% I just talked about.

I would love to list each issue you have listed and reply but, from my experience, the facts are not sufficient at changing your mind.

BTW Ronald Reagan destroyed the Airline Industry.

Union workmanship has been PROVEN to be much better that other labor pools. I see it every day in 4 Western States. It's how WE make our living basically. We sweep up what the non-union has screwed up. The clients are grateful.

I manage between 50 and 150 people and have never have one man working with 14 watching.

did you know that on the refineries, because of safety regulations, each welder, grinder etc. has to have his own fire watch person. This persons ONLY job is to sit there comfortably and watch to ensure that there is not a fire sparked by the technician.

You call that lazy, I call it saving lives (OSHA rule as well)

So much you don't know.

Course you don't want to learn either.

I'll offer an Apprentice or new Journeyman help and guidance.........ONCE!!!!

If they don't accept I move on.

You have to WANT to learn!!

2112,

IAM 751 and also have been in management for quite some time.

Unions protect the workers from "BAD MANAGERS" not "GOOD COMPANIES!"

collapse of airline industry

Yep, tell that to SouthWest Airlines!

Higher living costs.

Inflation does this and since Reagan's time the inflation is what raises wages not the other way around.

1 man working 14 watching.

Again, what part don't you understand, the COMPANY controls manpower!

Poor workmanship.

No, that is the Company's responsibility for quality standards!

collapse of automotive industry.

You don't know much about this industry do you?

This subject is too large to go into but our trade policies and standards of freetrade are not so free for the U.S. automotive industry.

If you had taken the time to look up some information you might not sound so ignorant!

benefits that destroy companies.

This is so funny that it is not worth debating.

You mean like getting paid for work?

L&I (Who don't seem to fine union shops).

LOL!!!!!

Laughing so hard I don't know what to say to this.

Unions abide by safety standards the company makes and the company sets those standards up by L&I standards.

You're not to smart in the business world, maybe you should just shutup!

Common Sal,

Anything more you can add to your fabled myth of unions.

Burt, you are a racist!

Sorry Burt, your post is actually intelligent .. I was referring to the post by 2112, who does not seem to think of our Asian cousins as human beings.

Squarebird,

Nice try again but you are still a fool.

It takes MUCH better bait than that for me to jump at an idiot like you.

2112 is also moronic .. as her first reply to anyone with whom she disagrees is to call him an idiot!! The employment statistics and the relative wealth of Americans versus any other nation are easy to look up .. and lately has been so remarkable that it has appeared on the front page of the Washington Post! Europe protects jobs and has double digit unemployment and a 'middle class' who cannot afford a decent-size refrigerator .. the U.S. allows creative destruction of jobs and companies .. and we and our children keep getting richer. 2112 .. how large is your home ... how large was your grandfathers? In Europe, houses are getting SMALLER with each generation.

the U.S. allows creative destruction of jobs and companies .. and we and our children keep getting richer.

What planet do you live on Squarebird, oops, it must mean you have the brain the size of a bird.

It is funny watching you begrudge another poster using made up figments of your imagination ideas.

Now you are a real winner for management, I here Bush is hiring!

Et tu, Moneywar, resort to calling people names rather than present an argument? Is that why you need a Union to protect your job? By the way, I already work for Bush, as I am a federal bureaucrat in Washington, D.C.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
List_of_countries_by_unemploym
ent_rate

The link is being stripped out. Just type in http before the above to get the stats.

Unemployment #'s are a crock. Sorry.

They don't count everyone that can work and doesn't have a job. Only counts those are don't qualify for unemployment, which is a cute way of lower the jobless #.

"No, that is the Company's responsibility for quality standards!"

No thats due to the artificial job security


Automotive
"You don't know much about this industry do you?"

Im talking about the unsustainable retirement packages and job pool. Yes the makers were fools to give them that but they kinda had to.


"
You're not to smart in the business world, maybe you should just shutup!"

Sorry i work in a construction related field. I've seen L&I drive by union jobs and stop at non union. I also have a buddy who is a steamfitter who tells me it is kinda a joke around the hall that L&I is in their pocket.


"1 man working 14 watching."

Overstatement i know. But you see it every time you drive by a road improvement or job site. When you have such narrow job descriptions that you can't overstep you are bound to have waiting around.


"Higher living costs."
Union jobs make more money. when you have a stockboy at safeway with the kinda bennies he has where do you think that extra money comes from?


"Union workmanship has been PROVEN to be much better"

Not in roofing
not in carpentry
not in landscaping
not in plumbing
not in electrical
but ill give you steel working and pipe fitting
I hear complaints about union labor almost every day. Yes that is opinion but an educated one.

The way it works is if you are part of a union you are pro-union everything if you are no you are anti-union.
If you cant see the benefits AND shortcomings of unions then you are blind. My post was mostly satire with a base in opinion. I thought the whole overstatement would get that across but i was wrong.
I was not attacking unions just the idea that they are superior to non-socialized labor.

The way it works is if you are part of a union you are pro-union everything if you are no you are anti-union.

Really, I am not part of a union and I am pro union!

You are really one ignorant individual, turnoff the key, your digging a bigger hole.

The standardised unemployment rate for the OECD area(1) was 5.4% in July 2007, the same as the previous month and 0.6 percentage point lower than a year earlier.
In the Euro area(2), the standardised unemployment rate was 6.9% in July 2007, also the same as the previous month and 0.9 percentage point lower than a year earlier. The United States' standardised unemployment rate for August 2007 was 4.6%, the same as the previous month and 0.1 percentage point lower than a year earlier. For Japan, the rate was 3.5% in July 2007, 0.2 percentage point lower than the previous month and 0.5 percentage point lower than in July 2006.

If unions are so grand and in such demand, why is only 1 in 8 American workers union? I hear so many people support their arguments with "1 in 8 Amercians think . . ." What about 1 in 8 Americans choose not to belong to a union?

Moneywar,

Bases on the posts here, people who are pro-Union are much more likely to resort to calling people who disagree with them "ignorant" or "idiots". I'll try to remember this the next time I decide whether to purchase a Union made project. That kind of reflex resistance to new ideas is part of the reputation that already clings to Union members and leaders.

Bases on the posts here, people who are pro-Union are much more likely to resort to calling people who disagree with them "ignorant" or "idiots". I'll try to remember this the next time I decide whether to purchase a Union made project. That kind of reflex resistance to new ideas is part of the reputation that already clings to Union members and leaders.

Squarebird,

What part of I am not apart of a Union don't you understand.

If I was in a Union I would be embarrassed by your stupidity!

Why not stop making up shit and post facts, it would help support your thoughts and ideas.

Solipsism, look it up, it is not a fact.

If unions are so grand and in such demand, why is only 1 in 8 American workers union? I hear so many people support their arguments with "1 in 8 Amercians think . . ." What about 1 in 8 Americans choose not to belong to a union?

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-27 07:22 PM | Reply | Flag

Yeah, and for someone who is in the 50's surely would be asking such stupid questions.

Grunt huh! Unions are not in demand, in fact they are trying to get rid of them. You know this shit and proves once again about all the things said about you.

I am interested in truth says GOATMAN........What a crock of shit that is.

If unions are so grand and in such demand, why is only 1 in 8 American workers union? I hear so many people support their arguments with "1 in 8 Amercians think . . ." What about 1 in 8 Americans choose not to belong to a union?

In 1979 48% of the total U.S. labor force belong to a union, now it is about 12%.

Just look at the wages since that time with inflation and you might get the picture.

In 1979 48% of the total U.S. labor force belong to a union, now it is about 12%.

Thank you for reinforcing my point, Mr. "You want to throw stats around and I will kick your ass".

If people wanted them, their numbers would be increasing, not decreasing. duh.

If unions are so grand and in such demand, why is only 1 in 8 American workers union? ....

-- Goatman

Because corporations used to be fair and value their employees and employees respected their bosses. Now under the Bush era of globalism/more profits at all costs mandated for corporations -- employees are merely commodities to be disgarded at will and loyalty means nothing any more. Corporations have replaced any appreciation of employee loyalty/service on the job with productivity and increased profit margins instead.

Pre-Bush's globalism fetish corporations had a fair give and take with their employees. Of course profit was desired and sought by corporation -- only a fool would think they could survive without it -- but Bush has pushed this country into a race to the bottom and blesses those corporations that put profit ahead of everything else.

Unions weren't needed until Bush brought back the gilded era. Bush has destroyed all safety and rule regulations, has given complete corporate control over this White House and is determined to extinguish the U.S. middle class off the face of the earth.

Unions are coming back because Americans have now opened their eyes and seen Bush's intentional destruction of the American worker and those workers are going to fight back -- hard. Your boy Bush ain't seen nothing yet. Unions rise when the employment climate is unfair and unjust and it's NEVER been worse (except in the Industrial Age at the turn of the last century) as it has been now under Bush.

(And do not insult me by saying Bush isn't "your boy" as you constantly defend him and if not outright defending him you always gloss over all the rotten things he's done.)

The bottom line is you are saying by getting rid of unions and reducing peoples wages is good for AMERICA!!!!!

Last I heard, working down the ladder of economic success was a bad thing.

But shit, you go ahead and believe the Corporate mantra.

Thank you for reinforcing my point, Mr. "You want to throw stats around and I will kick your ass".

If people wanted them, their numbers would be increasing, not decreasing. duh.

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-27 07:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, you missed the point and the fact that you draw it to a popularity issue says you are ignorant to the happenings of our nation.

Factories are not leaving because of unions, they are leaving because China pays .075 cents per hour.

Should be .75

Note to self: Do not get into retorts with Goatman re Bush as blood pressure may go sky high.

No, you missed the point and the fact that you draw it to a popularity issue says you are ignorant to the happenings of our nation.

So enlighten me. I'll admit I missed the point. But quit dodging my question: Why are only 1 in 8 American workers union? Why is that number falling? As spoiled as we are, you'd think we'd get what we as Americans want.

Can you answer the question, or do you just want to continue telling me I'm missing the point and call me names moneywar?

Should be .75

Posted by moneywar at 2007-09-27 07:51 PM | Reply

Just give it time -- Bush globalists will eventually drive it down to your original stat of .075.

The bottom line is you are saying by getting rid of unions and reducing peoples wages is good for AMERICA!!!!!

No, I didn't say that at all (what an idiot!). I ASKED: "why is union membership falling if it is so great?"

You obfuscate by calling me names, telling me I miss the point, now putting words in my mouth. You failure to answer my question speaks volumes, however.

Note to self: Do not get into retorts with Goatman re Bush as blood pressure may go sky high.


LOL. I think he is an idiot, too, Chris. You don't see me defending him here, do you? I just quoted union stats when he was president.

Just keep it under 180/120 and make sure you're taking your stat medicine and you'll be fine. *grin*

Just keep it under 180/120 and make sure you're taking your stat medicine and you'll be fine. *grin*

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-27 07:59 PM | Reply

Don't take any medicine for it -- don't even have high blood pressure -- yet. But that was in my pre-Goatman on DR days - *grin*

Goat,

density estimates compiled from the Current Population Survey (CPS)

Do you know what that means????????????

24% of the current population.

24% of the current population

So this is how you "kick ass" with numbers? Current population would even be lower. For a self-proclaimed ass-kicker with statistics, you are floundering badly, buddy.

Year Obs Employment Members Covered %Mem %Cov

1979 58,080 87,116.6 20,986.1 23,540.1 24.1

Anyway, I still want you to me why it is if unions are so great their numbers keep falling year after year?

So this is how you "kick ass" with numbers? Current population would even be lower.

Really!

300 million in this country and the work force is 148 million.

And just incase you missed this,total U.S. labor force

Um, Moneywar, I did post a link to wikipedia showing facts. So, what is your problem with the insults? Do you have Tourette's Syndrome or are you a plant to try make the pro-Union side sound like hateful? It is not just me you direct it at, it is at everyone who presents facts and arguments that don't conform to your paranoid and primitive understanding of basic economics. Again, Americans are far richer, live in larger homes and have less unemployment than in our own Union-controlled past or in other Union-dominated nations. Furthermore, since we have nearly full employment and poorer countries have 80+ percent UNemployment, we should not be so selfish as to try to prevent our jobs from being exported to those countries. They need them more than we do. The ironic thing is, is that the more hard-labor jobs we export, the more white-collar, cushiony jobs we create in our own country. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. A fact I already posted.

Um, Moneywar, I did post a link to wikipedia showing facts. So, what is your problem with the insults? Do you have Tourette's Syndrome or are you a plant to try make the pro-Union side sound like hateful? It is not just me you direct it at, it is at everyone who presents facts and arguments that don't conform to your paranoid and primitive understanding of basic economics. Again, Americans are far richer, live in larger homes and have less unemployment than in our own Union-controlled past or in other Union-dominated nations. Furthermore, since we have nearly full employment and poorer countries have 80+ percent UNemployment, we should not be so selfish as to try to prevent our jobs from being exported to those countries. They need them more than we do. The ironic thing is, is that the more hard-labor jobs we export, the more white-collar, cushiony jobs we create in our own country. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. A fact I already posted.

Anyway, I still want you to me why it is if unions are so great their numbers keep falling year after year?

I answered this question already Goat.

Now if you want to converse with debating conversation, I am all for it.

But if you are going to refuse to actually read through the post than it is a waste of my time.

Unions are not declining because they are unpopular, they are declining because the factories are being moved to countries with wages even in unions starting at .75/hr.

Companies now have the backing of the government to unfairly trade labor for wages.

This is a market failure, it is not comparative advantage, it is absolute advantage.

According to Lassalle, wages cannot fall below subsistence level because without subsistence, labourers will be unable to work for long. However, competition among labourers for employment will drive wages down to this minimal level.

This is now becoming reality with the advent of the global free trade of labor.

Moneywar -- why don't you answer the simplest of questions I keep asking?

If unions are so great, why are their numbers falling? Why are there only 1 in 8 employed Americans union members? Quit hiding behind total labor force numbers. Just answer the question.

Never mind, I will since you can't/won't.

It's because unions are bloodsucking crooks and the American people are smart enough to have finally figured this out and they don't want to have anything more to do with them.

Thanks for your (not so) artful dodging of the question, though, MW. It's been amusing.

I answered this question already Goat.

Not in this thread you didn't. But I am prone to mistakes, so if I am mistaken, please tell me the time stamp you answered it so I can go back and read it.

Got a lot of popcorn, Chris?

Furthermore, since we have nearly full employment and poorer countries have 80+ percent UNemployment, we should not be so selfish as to try to prevent our jobs from being exported to those countries. They need them more than we do.

Posted by squarebird at 2007-09-27 08:29 PM |

"not be so selfish as to try to prevent our jobs from being exported to those countries" -- are you nuts???

Try telling that to the more than 3,000,000 American workers who have lost their jobs under this globalist-run amok President.

NOT ONE JOB should be exported overseas if he leaves one single American unemployed.

What globalist corporation are you CEO of?

Unions are not declining because they are unpopular, they are declining because the factories are being moved to countries with wages even in unions starting at .75/hr.

This outsourcing craze has not been that large of a factor in the economy until Bush took office (at least to listen to the libs on the DR) But union member ship has been declining since long before Bush (mid 70s at least). So that's not the answer. Care to try again?

Moneywar -- why don't you answer the simplest of questions I keep asking?

If unions are so great, why are their numbers falling? Why are there only 1 in 8 employed Americans union members? Quit hiding behind total labor force numbers. Just answer the question.

My answer for the 3rd fucking time, sorry you are not able to understand.

Unions are not declining because they are unpopular, they are declining because the factories are being moved to countries with wages even in unions starting at .75/hr.

And this is your answer:

It's because unions are bloodsucking crooks and the American people are smart enough to have finally figured this out and they don't want to have anything more to do with them.

LOL!!!

Goat,

This outsourcing craze has not been that large of a factor in the economy until Bush took office (at least to listen to the libs on the DR) But union member ship has been declining since long before Bush (mid 70s at least). So that's not the answer. Care to try again?

You're just an ass, nothing more.

The outsourcing just increased greatly since Bush took office and gave incentives to do the outsourcing.

I am currious, why be such a ass?

The outsourcing just increased greatly since Bush took office and gave incentives to do the outsourcing.

I am currious, why be such a ass?

What are you talking about. I said EXACTLY what you just said:

This outsourcing craze has not been that large of a factor in the economy until Bush took office

So why has union membership been falling since the mid '70s. The outsourcing is largely a Bush phenomenom -- which we both agree on.

In case it clear in that context: How did outsourcing (which you blame on union decline) make the unions decline in the '70s?

Unions are not declining because they are unpopular, they are declining because the factories are being moved to countries with wages even in unions starting at .75/hr

This started happening under Bush. Unions started declining in the '70s. Why?

Actually Money, I remember quite well when union recruiters were having a difficult time getting a quorum of workers to have elections. Their chief weapon, the strike, was too hard on workers. The strikes too, drove a lot of companies out of business.

Unions are dying because they drove themselves out of business with above the market wages and benefits, job protection for useless and incompetent workers, and rigid work rules.

The last I read, union workers compose about 10% of the work force and most are now government workers.

If you weren't such an ignoramus, you wouldn't have to curse at people who don't see things as you do in your narrow-minded little world.

Unions are not declining because they are unpopular, they are declining because the factories are being moved to countries with wages even in unions starting at .75/hr.

The trend began long before. It's one reason why jobs moved from the north to the south. One company I once worked for here in NJ had a long strike that crippled the company for months. So they moved the plant to Nebraska where there are no unions.

Ah yes . . public employee unions . . .

"One comin'

One Goin'

One Shittin'

One mowin'

And a supervisor to see that they don't hurt themselves or break anything."

FF, John. I never heard that little ditty.

a manager picks up a package and places it on a conveyor belt then they get a grievence filed because it is taking work away from the union workers.

This is bull shit. Now if a manager was loading packages on the conveyor belt a grievence could be filed.

I worked for UPS as a seasonal driver two years ago and this is exactly true. There are people who load the trucks (union), people who drive the trucks (union). A manger is not allowed to touch those packages other than to flip them over to show the label. If they do you can bet some union employee will file a grievence.

From what I saw, most people dont really care but there are those who will bitch.

I loaded my own truck and made my own deliveries. The union requires that there be a specific number of laoders and drivers. So yes the union does have say in manpower.