Sounds like yet another republican war crime.

So a woman is heading home from market and sees a length of cord lying by the side of the road.
"Hmm", she thinks to herself "That'd make a nice clothes line". She bends down to pick it up and BLAM!, her brains are blown out all over the street.

This isn't going to win over any hearts and minds. Quite the opposite, the blowback from this is going to get more of our soldiers killed.

You can't police a civilian population with military tactics, it doesn't work.

Bring on the phony justifications...

The ones that pick up the bait are Al-Qaeda. The ones that don't pick up the bait are well disciplined Al-Qaeda.

Yes, because a foot or two of det cord looks like a clothesline...

I understand that you guys are not the least bit objective, but tell me your thoughts on the actions of WW2 soldiers. You know, the "Greatest Generation" guys that committed what you limp wrists consider war crimes now a days.

My uncle picked up det cord in order to fashion it into anal beads and was killed by a sniper.
Sincerely,
BJ and the Bear

I think we need more details here, but I don't thnink we'll be getting them. However, it is troubling to think that people who pick the stuff up are to be killed outright - is it not POSSIBLE that people will pick up objects from the ground for reasons other than to use them against US troops? Isn't part of the idea to win the hearts and minds, or are the poeple to be terrorized into submission? Is there an age limit? Are kids to be killed, too? Teenagers? etc.

******I understand that you guys are not the least bit objective......101*****

......and you are ?.........

Is there an age limit?

There isn't in Palestine. They've proven a ten year old can detonate as well as an old person.

I'm surpirised they didn't think of planting $20 bills and stuffed toys as bait to improve their kill rate.

My uncle picked up det cord in order to fashion it into anal beads and was killed by a sniper.
Sincerely,
BJ and the Bear

Posted by 101Chairborne

Your fascination with truck drivers and monkeys is disturbing.
Do you hang out at rest areas?

Is there an age limit?

There isn't in Palestine. They've proven a ten year old can detonate as well as an old person.

Posted by LeeAtwater


I know, but it's different when the US military has orders to shoot to kill people who pick items up off the ground - there are tactics, and then there is strategy. It seems that so often we engage in tactics which undermine our overall strategy. How much lower does our reputation need to sink?

$20 bills and stuffed toys

They don't know what that is. A hunk of goat covered with flies would attract more attention.

$20 bills and stuffed toys

They don't know what that is. A hunk of goat covered with flies would attract more attention.

Posted by LeeAtwater

BWA HA HA HA!!!
Do you write your own material?

How much lower does our reputation need to sink?

They've hated us for decades. It doesn't matter what you think our reputation is.

I know you all support the troops and what not, and that's why you're all assuming that the snipers are licking their chops and waiting for anyone to come by and pick up the object so they can indiscriminately kill.

All soldiers are killers and they are all just dying to kill any Iraqi. That's what every book written by a soldier that I've read says...Oh, wait a second, that's not true.

I wish I were shocked that you creatures exist.

Well, I guess shooting random Iraqis who pick up planted items and appear to be thinking about using them on American forces pretty much lays to rest the "We're liberating the Iraqi people to bring them freedom" excuse for the war. Let's see, was that the 2nd reason or the 3rd?

Do you write your own material?

Yep.

Sitting in a cab watching traffic all day allows for free flowing thought.

All soldiers are killers and they are all just dying to kill any Iraqi. That's what every book written by a soldier that I've read says...Oh, wait a second, that's not true.

I wish I were shocked that you creatures exist.

Posted by 101Chairborne

I'm shocked that you read a book.

Oh shit.

I meant to write that truck drivers are morons. My bad. I was distracted. See how it is?

Sitting in a cab watching traffic all day allows for free flowing thought.

Posted by LeeAtwater

Be careful, Chairpoodle thinks truck drivers are scum. God knows what he thinks about cab drivers.

You drive a truck and didn't realize he meant the cab of a truck? Man you just weren't smart enough to do any other job were you?

All soldiers are killers and they are all just dying to kill any Iraqi.

They have to if ordered to. That's the problem.

You drive a truck and didn't realize he meant the cab of a truck? Man you just weren't smart enough to do any other job were you?

Posted by 101Chairborne

No I didn't. I assumed that Lee was a cab driver. I didn't assume that he was an elitist snob mocking people who work for a living. You know, like you do.

Chairpoodle, do you have any Grey Poupon??

Great idea!

I'm gonna try this out in Halo 3.

Go ahead you Flood scum, try and pick up the bubble shield, I dare you.

Chairpoodle will never get it.
We understand that nasty shit happens in war.
It becomes a problem when the nasty shit is sanctioned and even ordered by commanders.

Can anyone say quagmire?

Giggity giggity goo

-Quagmire

Why don't you give our troops a little credit and sense of decency. They are in the midst of all the fighting. I believe they would exercise good judgement before shooting anyone who took the "bait". Why must so many of you always assume and accuse them of being blood thirsty cold hearted killers ?

K. When do the actual troops become responsible for these transgressions. Seems to me all the "little" nazis' excuse at Nuremberg was "we were just following orders, it's not our fault". The fuckers were killed.

""" I believe they would exercise good judgment before shooting anyone who took the "bait". """

And just how do you propose they do that. At a distance, through a scope, shoot or not shoot. The whole strategy demonstrates a complete LACK of judgment.

Never Pancho, the troops can never be questioned, unless the problem is the direct result of higher ups such as the Secretary of Defense. Then it's the troops fault.

They have to if ordered to. That's the problem.

Posted by ness_gadol at 2007-09-25 10:56 AM | Reply


Where in the fuck do you non-vets get off telling veterans what soldiers do and don't do? You have no idea what soldiers do or don't do.

What possible reason would you have to make that comment?

So soldiers aren't supposed to follow orders?

And just how do you propose they do that. At a distance, through a scope, shoot or not shoot. The whole strategy demonstrates a complete LACK of judgment.

Posted by panchovilla at 2007-09-25 11:21 AM | Reply


Have you ever looked through a scope let alone one of the scopes the snipers use? You can see if the person that fills your scope has a pimple.
Even a person 900 meters away is seen clearly.

Not every person that fills the scope gets shot.

Honestly, have any of you written on book by an actual combat soldier in either the Iraqi or Afghani conflicts? Even the ones that are anti-Bush, anti-US Strategy don't even so much as hint at the things you guys so readily assume.

So soldiers aren't supposed to follow orders?

Posted by RastaCyborg at 2007-09-25 11:25 AM | Reply


I thought you were an expert on military protocols because the men in your family actually had what it took to serve? I thought their service made you an expert? I guess you were full of shit huh?

Errrr...Have any of you read a book written blah blah blah...

""Why don't you give our troops a little credit and sense of decency.""

I absolutely do. That is why I think the Bush administration decided it needed mercenaries over there; to do the things our troops don't want to do. I know if there were a natural disaster here I would much rather have American soldiers or National Guard troops than Blackwater around.

"""Have you ever looked through a scope let alone one of the scopes the snipers use? You can see if the person that fills your scope has a pimple.
Even a person 900 meters away is seen clearly.

Not every person that fills the scope gets shot. """

I've looked through some high-powered scopes, but most likely nothing like these guys use. But that's not the point: How do you decide if the bearded fucker in the scope is innocent or not? If he's scowling you shoot him? It's based on what the guy or girl looks like? Good fucking luck.

Chairpoodle,
What difference does it make what the guy sees through his scope?
If he's told by his superiors to follow a procedure then that's what he'll do. Unless, of course, he decides not to follow orders in which case he's called a coward or a deserter by shitbags like you.

I'll try to say this once more and maybe you'll get it through your skull.
The entire issue that we're discussing is that these soldiers were ordered by higher ups to use this procedure. It isn't some spur of the moment battlefield occurence.

i'm no expert but i highly doubt they are ordered to use this procedure WITHOUT any judgment.

I've looked through some high-powered scopes, but most likely nothing like these guys use. But that's not the point: How do you decide if the bearded fucker in the scope is innocent or not? If he's scowling you shoot him? It's based on what the guy or girl looks like? Good fucking luck.

Posted by panchovilla at 2007-09-25 11:35 AM | Reply


I imagine it's no different than any other scenario involving a soldier in a war zone.

How do the soldiers in Afghanistan decide which bearded AK47 wielding local to shoot or not shoot? Soldiers, snipers especally are trained to use their judgement. They aren't required to shoot everyone. Their job is a difficult one. They spend an infinite amount of time behind that scope gathering intelligence, and a minute amount of time pulling the trigger.

It's not easy, and in war, mistakes happen, but to pretend as though the guys doing the sniping are unable to make sound judgement calls would be inaccurate.

i'm no expert but i highly doubt they are ordered to use this procedure WITHOUT any judgment.

Posted by Yodar013

No shit, but the procedure itself is flawed.
What if a kid picks it up?
Do you shoot him?
There's no other use for this stuff, eventually the kid will give it to an adult.

Why don't you give our troops a little credit and sense of decency. They are in the midst of all the fighting. I believe they would exercise good judgement before shooting anyone who took the "bait". Why must so many of you always assume and accuse them of being blood thirsty cold hearted killers ?

Posted by kerrin57


So you guys are once again prepared to accept things on blind faith, without any further details? It must be ok, because it, well, must be ok.

Should Hillary win the White House, we she get the same deferential treatment and total, unquestioning support if she tells you guys that she is listening to the very same generals?

Should Hillary win the White House, we she get the same deferential treatment and total, unquestioning support if she tells you guys that she is listening to the very same generals?

Posted by midiman at 2007-09-25 11:57 AM | Reply


Dipshit,
Did you read the article? It has nothing to do with Bush or Hillary and everything to do with the men on the ground doing the fighting.

I don't see any quotes from Bush or Hillary, just some O3, a couple of enlisted guys, and their fathers.

How do the soldiers in Afghanistan decide which bearded AK47 wielding local to shoot or not shoot?

Well, gee ... there's the AK47, which is probably covered under the rules of engagement (you must have skipped that chapter in the book you alluded to).

At least be serious if you are going to support this policy.

No shit, but the procedure itself is flawed.
What if a kid picks it up?
Do you shoot him?
There's no other use for this stuff, eventually the kid will give it to an adult.

Posted by RastaCyborg at 2007-09-25 11:50 AM | Reply


How many years did you serve?
How many hours have you spent in sniper training?
How many rounds have you sent down range?
Did the story reference any children picking up the "bait"?
Would you know what Det cord looked like, or even what to do with it?
Do you randomly walk down the street and pick up garbage that you don't even recognize? (well you probably do, but pretend as if you weren't a scumbag)?

Why must so many of you always assume and accuse them of being blood thirsty cold hearted killers ?

Posted by kerrin57

Because dirty little killers ordered them into Iraq, and there does tend to be guilt by association.

Well, gee ... there's the AK47, which is probably covered under the rules of engagement (you must have skipped that chapter in the book you alluded to).

At least be serious if you are going to support this policy.

Posted by midiman at 2007-09-25 12:00 PM | Reply


You don't have the slightest clue what the ROE are you silly little twat. I know you'll hide in embarrassment after I enlighten you...

Pick up a book by the Navy Seal that survived the ambush that resulted in the largest loss of life of Special Operators in our nations history. The ROE were so clear that he blames them for his platoons massacre.

You have absolutely no idea what in the fuck you're talking about, and nobody is surprised.

""""Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces.""""


I read that statement and fail to see how a sniper can possibly determine the difference between a terrorist and a curious civilian. The approach is fucked.

I read that statement and fail to see how a sniper can possibly determine the difference between a terrorist and a curious civilian. The approach is fucked.

Posted by panchovilla at 2007-09-25 12:10 PM | Reply


Something that they know they will use doesn't mean a can of gas and an american flag, or even a horny goat.
Obviously they aren't going to spell out the tactic to us, but an educated guess would say they're putting IED components or some other useful (but rendered harmless) item out there.
It's not as if this is the Army's sole tactic. It may very well be the tactic this unit has devised. Some snipers find it useful to ride on the back of a Hummer and be "mobile snipers", others prefer a hide.

Nothing is static.

I'm still trying to figure out where the soldier sets himself up while another plants the bait. I'm assuming the baiter isn't always the shooter. I"m figuring on coordinated setup and attack.

And, where do you plant the bait to attract the enemy? I'm not going to plant bait near a public area, right?

So, if our soldiers are planting bait, it'll be where the enemy will find that is likely, than an innocent civilian. Soldiers, despite orders, have honor.

What's important, too, is that after the sniper takes the shot, his location is made known. That means you setup another location. In public places, this kind of thing would draw crowds - how do you escape from your nest? So, the plant and shoot has to be isolated and escapeable.

I'm not so sure about the story. The fact this is coming out means the enemy will now know about another tactic that I suppose was once classified.

You don't have the slightest clue what the ROE are you silly little twat. I know you'll hide in embarrassment after I enlighten you...

Pick up a book by the Navy Seal that survived the ambush that resulted in the largest loss of life of Special Operators in our nations history. The ROE were so clear that he blames them for his platoons massacre.

You have absolutely no idea what in the fuck you're talking about, and nobody is surprised.


LOL. You are talking in circles. Are there rules of engagement that should be followed or not? Will they lead to a massacre? Perhaps to the shooting of a kid picking up debris?

Seems to me that is EXACTLY what is being questioned here - people are questioning whether or not this is a good idea, and you offer nothign but blind support. What a surprise.

It's the discussion itself that seems to subtle for you, dear boy.

Midi,
Go google the ROE and tell me again how clear cut they are. Tell me how they address the guy with the AK, and tell me how comfy you'd be if you were an american soldier deployed with those ROE's.

Or just contnue to type about things you have no idea about, it's your call.

You dumbshit, you're confusing actual military experience with "blind support". You clowns are offering nothing other than blaming the troops blindly.
Countering your bullshit is hardly blind support.

How many years did you spend in the military Midi? Oh, the same number as Rasta and Ness? Thanks for your insight...

Midi,
Go google the ROE and tell me again how clear cut they are. Tell me how they address the guy with the AK, and tell me how comfy you'd be if you were an american soldier deployed with those ROE's.

Or just contnue to type about things you have no idea about, it's your call.

Posted by 101Chairborne


Thank you for finally seeing my point, which was, if you recall, that I wanted more info on this topic, because it seemed to be a possible recipe for disaster. you really went on quite a wild ride in order to come back to making my point for me. Hope it was as aggravating for you as you know-it-all posts made it sound.

In the meantime, I'll talkk it over with my brother, who is an officer here at West Point.

Actually ... the class I teach there off and on (calssroom management for officers who want to eventually do battle in the public schools), is normally filled with officers who, surprisingly, don't always agree on tactics, even if they are unwillinging to be too critical of overall policy.

Rhetorically - which would be worse in this situation, bad ROE or no ROE? With your vast experience and extensive reading, you should know THE CORRECT answer that all of the officers there would find compelling.

I can hardly wait.

Obviously, they weren't participating in the baiting program if they were dropping weapons on people after a kill. And it doesn't sound like the baiting program used actual weapons but that's a guess. But I have to say that the details of this program seem crucial to the defense of the these soldiers. Can the army really keep the details out of the courts if this is the only defense these guys have? I have no idea but hardly seems fair.

As for the baiting program itself - seems pretty stupid if it is real. If you're poor and you see something laying on the ground that you may be able to sell as scrap - or better yet on the black market, you pick it up. The assumption that only an insurgent would be interested in these materials doesn't make any sense.

Go google the ROE and tell me again how clear cut they are.

Obviously they aren't going to spell out the tactic to us

You don't have the slightest clue what the ROE are you silly little twat

I understand that you guys are not the least bit objective



101chairborne


Hmm ... you say I don't know anything (I think you may have called me some names, too), but that I should google the ROE to see how clear they are, even though they are not going to spell our their tactics.

Thanks, bud. Now I understand where you are coming from.

I was never in Iraq, but assuming that the typical Iraqi is just as poor as a typical Kosovar (where I do have some experience), I can definitely see where baiting people would potentially be very dangerous. I can also see where potential IED components may be scavenged by unsuspecting non-combatants, as I suspect just about every piece of garbage on the ground is pretty well picked over.

I do have some serious doubts about the whole thing. How is a sniper going to ID someone who is simply picking something up off the ground? What exactly does a terrorist look like at 500 m?


Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.


If these snipers baited civilians, there really is no excuse, as they violated US law. I guess the big question is whether or not the orders really did come from above and/or if such an illegal classified program exists. From the sounds of it, their entire chain-of-command is equally guilty.

If I was an Iraqi civilian walking along the street I wouldn't know a detonation cord from a regular cord that maybe I wanted to use for something around the house and decided to pick it up to bring home. So I'm suppose to get blown away because of that?

I do have some serious doubts about the whole thing. How is a sniper going to ID someone who is simply picking something up off the ground? What exactly does a terrorist look like at 500 m?

I guess the big question is whether or not the orders really did come from above and/or if such an illegal classified program exists.



Be patient. 101chair will soon tell us the answer to this and all questions on this topic, as soon as he finishes his latest book.

In the meantime, I'll talkk it over with my brother, who is an officer here at West Point.

Posted by midiman at 2007-09-25 12:45 PM | Reply |


Translation: I am not in the military nor have I ever been.

Your brothers schooling has zero to do with you or your lack of service.


maxipad,
You're going to try to tell me that the following was an attempt to make a point about the ROE's???

Well, gee ... there's the AK47, which is probably covered under the rules of engagement (you must have skipped that chapter in the book you alluded to).

At least be serious if you are going to support this policy.

Posted by midiman at 2007-09-25 12:00 PM | Reply

You're full of shit, and there is no possible way for you to pretend as though you were trying to make a point about ROE's.
Simply follow the thread douchebag, you can't possibly expect anyone to believe you had a point other than you didn't know a god damned thing about ROE's.

Translation: I am not in the military nor have I ever been.

Your brothers schooling has zero to do with you or your lack of service.



Correct. I have never served in the military, and have no interest in doing so. If military service meant being correct about matters military, perhaps you can explain the existence of bad ROE in the first place - excpet OOPS - I don't really give a shit - truth be told.

Here is my original post on this thread. You tell me what I meant, since you seem to know everything. It's a pity you have so little room for subletly in your interpretation and your argument - you made ASSUMPTIONS and JUDGEMENTS about what I and others were talking about, and then you went on from there.



I think we need more details here, but I don't thnink we'll be getting them. However, it is troubling to think that people who pick the stuff up are to be killed outright - is it not POSSIBLE that people will pick up objects from the ground for reasons other than to use them against US troops? Isn't part of the idea to win the hearts and minds, or are the poeple to be terrorized into submission? Is there an age limit? Are kids to be killed, too? Teenagers? etc.

Posted by midiman


Oh, and "maxipad" .. lol.

Snipers aren't indiscriminate. I'd say the issue would be: 1-location of the bling. 2-the salvage value of the item.

We're talking Iraq where jobs are scarce, and looting has been going on since the "liberation." I'd be concerned that someone would pick it up just to sell it.

maxipad,
Seeing as though the post of yours that I addressed was the one in regards to Bush/Hillary what the fuck does your original post have to do with our discussion?

What does your original post have to do with your post at noon? The answer is nothing, nothing at all. You got caught talking out of your ass with your noon post and now you're attempting to deflect.

H'mmmm. With all the expert opinion offered by 101, he must be a master baiter.

USN,
Nice. Funny flag.

Here is what I was talking about re: your judgements about what we were saying.


I know you all support the troops and what not, and that's why you're all assuming that the snipers are licking their chops and waiting for anyone to come by and pick up the object so they can indiscriminately kill.

All soldiers are killers and they are all just dying to kill any Iraqi. That's what every book written by a soldier that I've read says...Oh, wait a second, that's not true.

I wish I were shocked that you creatures exist.

Posted by 101Chairborne

maxipad,
Seeing as though the post of yours that I addressed was the one in regards to Bush/Hillary what the fuck does your original post have to do with our discussion?

What does your original post have to do with your post at noon? The answer is nothing, nothing at all. You got caught talking out of your ass with your noon post and now you're attempting to deflect.



No ... and again here subletly is important - I was just wondering aloud if your support for the surge, this operation, "the mission", etc., would extend to other administrations, as well, or if it comes out of a pro-Bush mindset. It was admittedly a tangent (math concept -I'm a a math teacher during the day), but not an unreasonable one, considering the "typical" pro-Iraq war posters here.


H'mmmm. With all the expert opinion offered by 101, he must be a master baiter.



But not necessarily a cunning linguist.

But not necessarily a cunning linguist.

He does claim expertise at cunnilingus.

I can only take him at his word.

Midi (202pm),
Did you or did you not see the posts by "species", "Rasta", "Norm", "Ubercynic", etc?

Can you see and understand why I'd type what you cut and pasted?

Midi (206pm),
Had you asked that question in that manner perhaps I would have answered differently. I reacted more to the "blind faith". George Bush or the reasoning for this war have absolutely nothing to do with the snipers. If I mistook your line of questioning then that's on me, but I am capable of seperating the admins from the troops. I served during the Clinton years and part of W's, neither President had anything to do with what I did or didn't do as a soldier (tactic wise). Except for the fact Clinton was supposed to meet us and thank us for our work prior to the possible hatian invasion...He sent Gore instead.

hmmmm interesting.... to bad the general staff; or who ever came up with the brillant ploy, did not think to use the hundreds of UNGUARDED ammo and weapons dumps in Iraq in the same way... NOW there would be some unambiguous intel. They may have acctually turned this cluster fuck into a successful military operation...but hell.... who would have thought that all that ordinance would be stolen and use against our troops...."no one could have imagined" I'm sure..

"Chairpoodle, do you have any Grey Poupon??

Posted by RastaCyborg at 2007-09-25 11:02 AM"

Are you serious? He's a renter for Christ's sake. And his landlord is his sister-mom. He had a plastic bottle of French's Yellow Mustard a few years back, but he threw it away during the whole "Freedom Fries" thing.

He had a plastic bottle of French's Yellow Mustard a few years back, but he threw it away during the whole "Freedom Fries" thing.

Posted by mOntecOre at 2007-09-25 02:49 PM | Reply


Mustard on fries? Jeez, and to think I thought you were a sick fuck because of your politics...

lOl, 101.

What if a kid picks it up?
Do you shoot him?
.....Rasty

Do YOU really believe our guys would shoot a kid ? If you do it would explain much of the attitude here....I know most lefties do not like our military . It is evident here ...many disparage them out of one side of the mouth while damning them with faint praise out of the other.

"Do YOU really believe our guys would shoot a kid ?"


They've shot lots of them.

This sniper is more than likely guilty of carrying the somewhat questionable tactic of low morals a little too far.

Do I believe our guys would shoot a kid, Yes. It happens all the time.

Orders don't destinguish between kids and adults and it seems you just can't seemed to admit this to your wee little brain.

The real question here is the set up and assumption of guilt by picking the item up. Being curious apparently is lethal.

Or just being safety awareness for the children sake is lethal too.

This has the same effect as a land mine but in effect is lower on the moral scale because an actual person has to shoot the unsuspecting individual and watch it.

Orders don't destinguish between kids and adults

The distinction may not matter. There's teenagers planting IEDs. If it wasn't a Muslim country I'll bet the women would be in on it too.

We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview

Uh-huh. Where has Spud heard that one afore?...

Ve belief that our client vas just obeying orders and being a good soldier!

~Practically every lawyer at Nuremberg.

Changing hearts and minds one bullet at a time?

Did they think this li'l gem up themselves or is it another "succesful" tactic borrowed from the Israel/Palestine occupation?

Planting guns on dead guys is an old cop trick.

Course, that's just fer the regular Army types, the mercenaries in Iraq just kill with abandon and don't even bother to try and cover it up cos they simply aren't prosecutable.

Just another war crime to go on the list.

Charging someone with murder around here is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indianapolis 500

~Apocalypse Now

Be Well.

I prefer mayo on fries.

I absolutely do. That is why I think the Bush administration decided it needed mercenaries over there; to do the things our troops don't want to do. I know if there were a natural disaster here I would much rather have American soldiers or National Guard troops than Blackwater around.

Posted by danni at 2007-09-25 11:31 AM

And yet again we have danni spewing more lies and false accusations without a shred of evidence.

Bring on the phony justifications...


Posted by RastaCyborg



yeah, yeah... You support the troops Rasta and all the rest of the left on this thread. Jump to conclusions and blaim the baby killers.

Lets see, we have three individules being court marshalled for doing what someone says they were ordered to do.

By supporting this story you are saying that the Army did approve this act. Where is your proof before you make an accusation. Oh wait I forgot you are liberals and dont need proof.

"Jump to conclusions and blaim the baby killers."

Posted by LasstAmerican

American soldiers, sailors and Marines are, according to lasstamerican, and I quote, "baby killers."

Amazing.

Hans

my concern is that Iraqis have been savaging since the war ended. So you are going to put an AK-47 on the street and shoot whoever picks it up? great, lots of iraqis may pick that up because A. its worth money, and B. Ak47 are practically a cultural lynch pin in the US anyway. Are you going to be putting shinny objects on the ground meant to look like bomb making material that may be picked up by the average iraqi looking to make a buck selling the scrap at market?

sounds like a piss poor plan whos implementation will kill US soldiers when the familys' of innocent iraqis come out looking for revenge

should say scavaging in the first sentence
should say middle east instead of US in the third sentence

Rcade, we need an edit function

Rcade, we need an edit function

And howsabout a ham sandwich while yer up?

Be Well.

I prefer mayo on fries.

Ha! First time Spud ever saw anybody do that was in France.

Spud thought they was nutZ!

Nowadays, Spud likes mixing ketchup with mayo (and maybe a little dash of horseradish) and then dipping fries into it.

S'good stuff. Also good fer Tater Chips.

Be Well.

CHAIRBORN101... "I understand that you guys are not the least bit objective, but tell me your thoughts on the actions of WW2 soldiers. You know, the "Greatest Generation" guys that committed what you limp wrists consider war crimes now a days."

It is a well known fact that people in war torn countries collect scrap, especially "military scrap", to sell for food and necessities. It happens in all theaters of war. The fact that we are baiting uncle Ahkmed into a death-trap because he needs soy beans to make hummus for his family is disturbing. And, there is no way a soldier can distinguish between Al Qaeda and an innocent Iraqi -in person-, at checkpoints- or in a market-; this is why suicide bombers get through all of the time. So, I don't see your "seeing their pimples through the scope" theory of selectivity as very reliable...

And, I don't see what "limp wrists" have to do with anything; it's just simple reasoning, regardless of one's joint integrity. A sense of reasoning you obviously can't comprehend, I might add...

I guess when occupying a rooftop it should be illegal or immoral to raise a helmet on a pole to draw fire?

LAY... "I guess when occupying a rooftop it should be illegal or immoral to raise a helmet on a pole to draw fire?"

Huh???

How is that even relevent???

Yes, because a foot or two of det cord looks like a clothesline...

I understand that you guys are not the least bit objective, but tell me your thoughts on the actions of WW2 soldiers. You know, the "Greatest Generation" guys that committed what you limp wrists consider war crimes now a days.

Posted by 101Chairborne at 2007-09-25 10:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

What if the "insurgent" saw something suspicious and picked it up to have a look with the intention of notifying US forces about it? One more ally dead at our hands.

Do you really think that the people that actually plant devices are going to go back and have a look?

How do the soldiers in Afghanistan decide which bearded AK47 wielding local to shoot or not shoot? Soldiers, snipers especally are trained to use their judgement. They aren't required to shoot everyone. Their job is a difficult one. They spend an infinite amount of time behind that scope gathering intelligence, and a minute amount of time pulling the trigger.

It's not easy, and in war, mistakes happen, but to pretend as though the guys doing the sniping are unable to make sound judgement calls would be inaccurate.

Posted by 101Chairborne at 2007-09-25 11:49 AM | Reply | Flag:



OHHH! OK! Now the people picking up the devices have AK-47's. I must have missed that in the article. Good eyes 101Fraud.

The sad truth is that business of Iraq is bombs, guns, and death no matter how you slice it. Brian had Juan Cole on his show, and for someone who knows the Middle East as he does, he had no optimism for any rebuilding of Iraq.

Pretty obvious that 160,000 US troops and 45,000 mercs can't control a country when everything the engineers build gets blown up or damaged as soon as they move on. Nobody to follow in and maintain order.

Dr. Cole praised those soldiers' efforts, and talked about the frustrations our troops have to deal with on an everyday basis.

This whole thing is going to bleed us dry as the sands of Mesopotamia.

It amazes me to read the posts here. A lawyer puts out an unsubstantiated statement to the press bad mouthing our military in an effeort to justify his clients bad behavior and people here accept it as fact? No questions asked?

Strange I didnt see that many who believed senator Craig when he made up excuses for his actions in a mens room.

I fear that too many are too willing to believe anything bad that is said about our military.

Please show a little more support for our troops.

"A lawyer puts out an unsubstantiated statement to the press bad mouthing our military"

You really should do a little research.

OHHH! OK! Now the people picking up the devices have AK-47's. I must have missed that in the article. Good eyes 101Fraud.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2007-09-25 09:45 PM | Reply |


You stupid fuck, the article is about Iraq, I used Afghanistan as an example to explain a concept to Panchovilla.

Did you notice how everyone besides you understood that? Probably not because you're a dumb bastard.

Do you really think that the people that actually plant devices are going to go back and have a look?

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2007-09-25 09:38 PM | Reply


Re-read that and see if it makes sense to you. You joined the navy because you were stupid and gay right?

Did you even read the article Copernicus?

Midi (206pm),
Had you asked that question in that manner perhaps I would have answered differently. I reacted more to the "blind faith". George Bush or the reasoning for this war have absolutely nothing to do with the snipers. If I mistook your line of questioning then that's on me,


OK then ... we agree to disagree. On to the next debate (I do so love scuffling with these issues, even if message boards don't always serve as the best medium for making unambiguous points.) I'd still buy you a beer ... a Corona, fresh over the Mexican border.

midi,
I obviously throw courtesy out the window on the retort. It's a habit because there are a handful of people here that are right of center and unfortunately we tend to draw plenty of ire...Sometimes courtesy is a luxury.
I'd throw a few beers back with you in a heartbeat as long as they weren't Corona's!

Zatoich

"[Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed. Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said his client had acted "pursuant to orders."]"


That protocol was described by the defense attorny only and the stories do not corrolate that it was part of a sworn statement by any soldiers.

The sworn statements state that a "Baiting program" existed, but a protocol to kill the first person to happen to pick it up is not described as part of the sworn statement. Nor does it state that the protocol was to plant objects on the body after the kill.


Quoting your source as the newyork times and their recent obvious bias at slandering the military I am significantly suspcious. Of course you are not.

Alwayswrong

31 convictions have already occurred.
Look it up.

So which is worse?
Baiting or throwdown bomb parts?

Posted by Zatoichi at 2007-09-26 09:33 AM | Reply


It's called war. Shit happens.

Wow, 31 convictions? In how many years? That's not very impressive considering over how many 100's of thousands of locked and loaded soldiers have stepped foot there in the past 5 years?

CHAIRBORED... "It's called war. Shit happens."

Yeah, remember that the next time one of our soldiers is ripped apart by a roadside IED: It's called war; shit happens!!!

Oh wait, you're a Conservative; YOU ALREADY DO!!!

Puppet,
What does one have to do with the other?
Do you feel better now that I've patted you on your head and acknowledged you?
Now go outside and play, or change back to your other handle.

Commondense,
You'll be getting off the bus soon. We both know you'll slink back here to read the response to your drivel. I just wanted you to know that I'm aware that you're going to read it, be embarrassed because you once again got outed as a fool, and will slink away without comment (pretending as though you never read it).

Wipe your chin fool.

CHAIRBORED... "It's called war. Shit happens."

Yeah, remember that the next time one of our soldiers is ripped apart by a roadside IED: It's called war; shit happens!!!

Oh wait, you're a Conservative; YOU ALREADY DO!!!

CHAIRBORN101... "I understand that you guys are not the least bit objective, but tell me your thoughts on the actions of WW2 soldiers. You know, the "Greatest Generation" guys that committed what you limp wrists consider war crimes now a days."

It is a well known fact that people in war torn countries collect scrap, especially "military scrap", to sell for food and necessities. It happens in all theaters of war. The fact that we are baiting uncle Ahkmed into a death-trap because he needs soy beans to make hummus for his family is disturbing. And, there is no way a soldier can distinguish between Al Qaeda and an innocent Iraqi -in person-, at checkpoints- or in a market-; this is why suicide bombers get through all of the time. So, I don't see your "seeing their pimples through the scope" theory of selectivity as very reliable...

And, I don't see what "limp wrists" have to do with anything; it's just simple reasoning, regardless of one's joint integrity. A sense of reasoning you obviously can't comprehend, I might add...

CHAIRBORED:

Talk about "slinking away without comment (pretending as though you never read it)"

Funny poop!

CHAIRBORED101:

Oh, and wipe YOUR chin; you're dribbling on your shirt again...

CptOblivious (and what ever other handles you use),
I asked you previously what the fuck your 417pm had to do with anything. You literally typed and said nothing.
Your other post has already been addressed prior to that and frankly wasn't worth addressing. You're a puppet that changes handles at will, answering your posts just encourages you freaks so I try to avoid them.

101: Oh, I didn't realize your 4:33 was for me; I read it and just didn't think that it applied...

I think that this post speaks for itself:

>CHAIRBORED... "It's called war. Shit happens."

>Yeah, remember that the next time one of our soldiers is ripped apart by a roadside IED: It's called war; shit happens!!!

>Oh wait, you're a Conservative; YOU ALREADY DO!!!

Do I really need to explain it to you???

You have no point what so ever. It is a war, shit does happen, and our soldiers do get killed by IED's. Did you think you were making a point? I fucking hope not stupid.

As for your other post regarding the baiting...You don't know what objects they're using to bait them. You don't know where they are doing the baiting. You don't know shit about it yet you pretend to know that the objects they're putting out there would be picked up by the avergae Iraqi? Do you think they're putting out a plate of french fries? Iraqi money? Burgers? Or perhaps something that would look useless to anyone other than an insurgent?

Your name says it all, you're gay, we get it. You want to hump men. Terrific. Why not just name yourself "Liberal"?

101CHAIRBORED ... "You have no point what so ever. It is a war, shit does happen, and our soldiers do get killed by IED's. Did you think you were making a point? I fucking hope not stupid."

Yes, I was making a statement: you are a Conservative, so the only time you give two shits in a rusty bucket about the troops is when it furthers your political agenda ... I.E. "Fuck the American soldiers ... It's war: Shit happens" ...

Do I need to explain this to you again???

And, I'm hurt that someone like you would call me stupid ... It's like being called a "retard" by someone with DS ...


101CHAIRBORED ... "As for your other post regarding the baiting...You don't know what objects they're using to bait them. You don't know where they are doing the baiting. You don't know shit about it yet you pretend to know that the objects they're putting out there would be picked up by the avergae Iraqi? Do you think they're putting out a plate of french fries? Iraqi money? Burgers? Or perhaps something that would look useless to anyone other than an insurgent?

Nor do you ...

Perhaps something that would look useless to anyone other than an insurgent ... Like military scrap for instance ... Which is frequently collected by the indigenous populations of war torn countries to sell for money to survive ...


101CHAIRBORED ... "Your name says it all, you're gay, we get it. You want to hump men. Terrific. Why not just name yourself "Liberal"?

Being called "gay" and "stupid" all in one post ...

I find it very satisfying when people resort to name calling and character distortions; it's the first white flag of surrender, and/or the last death rattle of defeat ...

101CHAIRBORED ... "Gurgle, gurgle"

Yes, I was making a statement: you are a Conservative, so the only time you give two shits in a rusty bucket about the troops is when it furthers your political agenda ... I.E. "Fuck the American soldiers ... It's war: Shit happens" ...

Do I need to explain this to you again???
posted by CAPTAINOBLIVIOUS

What's strange is you think you made a point or made a statement that needs explaining in the first place.
You made a comment that had no point. You simply stated something so obvious that anyone with an iota of intelligence would have to ask why you even bothered typing it. It's war, people die. Whether it's our guys or theirs.

On top of that you attempt to make it out as if I don't care about the troops...What was it you were saying about the whte flag? Seems that when you need to reort to supplying an arguement to somebody you've already lost bitch.



Perhaps something that would look useless to anyone other than an insurgent ... Like military scrap for instance ... Which is frequently collected by the indigenous populations of war torn countries to sell for money to survive ...
posted by CPTStrawman

Why do you think you have anything resembling a point? Military scrap like an IED for instance? Why don't regular Iraqi's go around picking up those valuable looking pieces of scrap? After-all, they're valuable and the indigenous people of Iraq need the money right?

You and your ilk want to assume the worst when it comes to the troops. That's why you scumbags look for any anti-war troop (no matter if they acually served, were honorably discharged, or are even telling the truth), or any negative story you can find regarding the troops.

Me on the other hand, I prefer to use a little common sense, and rely on my actual military experience when evaluating stories such as these regarding the soldiers.

Tell me again how you support the troops while assuming the worst about them.

101CHAIRBORED ... "What's strange is you think you made a point or made a statement that needs explaining in the first place.
You made a comment that had no point. You simply stated something so obvious that anyone with an iota of intelligence would have to ask why you even bothered typing it. It's war, people die. Whether it's our guys or theirs."

I realize that when I say Conservatives have no respect, nor compassion for the troops it is an overstatement of the "obvious" ...

However, you are the one that introduced the phrase: It's war, shit happens at 2007-09-26 10:03 AM. Therefore I guess that you are the one is posting things "simply stated something so obvious that anyone with an iota of intelligence would have to ask why you even bothered typing it." I just pointed it out to you ... So Sorry; try again ...


101CHAIRBORED ... "On top of that you attempt to make it out as if I don't care about the troops...What was it you were saying about the whte flag? Seems that when you need to reort to supplying an arguement to somebody you've already lost bitch".

I said "Conservatives don't care about the troops". You are the one that assumed it applied to you ... Rightfully so, I presume ...

And, if this weren't just another case where I was amusing myself by swatting you down post after post for something to do, and we were ACTUALLY debating; I agree I would have to "supply you with an argument". Which I agree would be fairly pointless ...



101CHAIRBORED ... "Perhaps something that would look useless to anyone other than an insurgent ... Like military scrap for instance ... Which is frequently collected by the indigenous populations of war torn countries to sell for money to survive ...
posted by CPTStrawman"

Que???

Why don't you respond to the statement; it's not a straw-man argument as it directly contradicts everything you've said (of any substance) in regards to this thread ...


Continued...

Continuation...

101CHAIRBORED ... "Why do you think you have anything resembling a point? Military scrap like an IED for instance? Why don't regular Iraqi's go around picking up those valuable looking pieces of scrap? After-all, they're valuable and the indigenous people of Iraq need the money right?"

Maybe they do. However, I think the insurgents hide there IEDs a bit better than the sniper teams do the "sniper-bait" ...


101CHAIRBORED ... "You and your ilk want to assume the worst when it comes to the troops. That's why you scumbags look for any anti-war troop (no matter if they acually served, were honorably discharged, or are even telling the truth), or any negative story you can find regarding the troops"

I don't have an "ilk"; I'm one of a kind ...

I don't "look" for anything; these stories just flood the mainstream media so I read them and express an opinion ...

And, in expressing my opinion I look at the story and its ramifications logically. For instance: Using sniper-bait is a bad idea because it is certain to draw in innocent Iraqis because: insurgents are quickly going to figure out that it is a trap, and our snipers are not going to be able to tell the difference between an innocent Iraqi and an insurgent. We know this to be true because suicide bombers get through checkpoints all the time. This tells us that our soldiers can't tell the difference between a "good Iraqi" and a "bad Iraqi" face to face, much less at 800yds through a high-powered scope ...


101CHAIRBORED ... "Me on the other hand, I prefer to use a little common sense, and rely on my actual military experience when evaluating stories such as these regarding the soldiers"

So, what you are saying is that your opinions and posts are biased by association ...


101CHAIRBORED ... "Tell me again how you support the troops while assuming the worst about them"

I support the troops, and expect them to be human while undertaking the incredibly difficult responsibility of being soldiers ...

I "assume the worst" about the people that sent the troops into war, because they have proven themselves to be of little integrity and the lowest common denominator of humanity ...

You (from what I gather from your posts) are knee-jerk to defend ANY/ALL actions taken by our present administration and military no matter how atrocious the act. I find this to be a lot more bias and presumptuous than my approach ...