This can be good or bad news. At least GM did not cave in so quickly just to avoid a strike.

A while ago I read a case study about Caterpillar Inc. Then CEO Donald Fites fought the UAW from 1991-1998 in order to get rid of pattern bargaining, and to obtain a two-tier wage sytem and flexible scheduling. The company was making record profits and revenues despite the many strikes and work stoppages and so on. What we neeed here in the auto industry is a Donald Fites hardliner who is willing to stick it out. Unfortunately, I am afraid that whatever deal they will make with the UAW now will have cosequences that wiill still be felt 20 or 30 years from now.

Unions sucking the life out of American companies again. Isn't it grand, but the union bullies will win again.

Well, once they have really made the US auto industry totally uncompetitive they can follow those auto manufacturing jobs out of the country.

Well, once they have really made the US auto industry totally uncompetitive they can follow those auto manufacturing jobs out of the country.

Even if they were, they're still heading out of the country. Whether it's 5 years, 10 or 20, those jobs are headed out of the country.

Unions sucking the life out

Yeah, it's the union guys who design automobiles that are inferior to Toyota and Nissan.

They're also the ones who keep voting more stock options for the CEO.

Evil union guys.

Mexican scabs or bust! The New American Way!

Mexican scabs...
That sounds like something you would get after a night in Tijuana.

GM still makes cars in this country?

What about the GM workers in Canada and Mexico? Are they on strike too?

Canada will be fine.

Seeing how their major exports are donuts and hockey players.

Wow, nice putting together both entries about this topic. I don't think I've seen this before.

The American automobile industry has put itself in this position. The UAW has worked hard, through dwindling membership, to strengthen the industry. However, American CEO's just can't get past the dollar as they make it right now, and so the industry keeps pumping out crap. GM is a textbook case of corporate and investor greed, crappy products, and a piss-poor attitude toward change.

You can't blame the UAW if you design and build a crappy car.

You're argument is similar to: You can't blame the passengers of the Titanic because the captain is a moron and ran into an iceberg.

Nevertheless, the ship is sinking and the people in it have to take drastic action to save themselves.

"Yeah, it's the union guys who design automobiles that are inferior to Toyota and Nissan."

Well yeah, if you don't consider style performance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior.

Then CEO Donald Fites fought the UAW from 1991-1998 in order to get rid of pattern bargaining, and to obtain a two-tier wage sytem and flexible scheduling.

Wow, you parrot the corporate line quite well. Been to a few management training sessions?
Here's the translation:

two-tier wage system- we can hire temps and get rid of older workers

flexible scheduling- we can change your hours whenever we feel like it

I didn't know we even had any unions left in this country since we've been under total corporatist rule since 2000.

Then CEO Donald Fites fought the UAW from 1991-1998 in order to get rid of pattern bargaining, and to obtain a two-tier wage sytem and flexible scheduling.

They did the two-tier wage system here in California three years ago when three major supermarkets went on strike. It didn't work -- lots of friction among the workers and the cheaper paid lower tier workers got more working hours.

flexible scheduling -- in "corporate-speak" that means they will keep your hours just below the minimum of 29 hours per week needed to be covered by the company's health insurance plan.

You can't blame the UAW if you design and build a crappy car.

Posted by FredFlintstone at 2007-09-24 02:21 PM

Yes you can if you ignore facts.

in "corporate-speak" that means they will keep your hours just below the minimum of 29 hours per week needed to be covered by the company's health insurance plan.

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-24 02:51 PM | Reply

Wal Mart is terrific for allowing employees to work 38 hours per week. Just two short of health insurance... sorry... try again next week.

the idiots who run the unions are the same kind of who run the Post Office, run MLK in south central, and will finish the pathetic job that the was begun 50 years ago by both parties...........

Will anyone actually notice that they are on strike seeing as nobody buys their cars these days anyway? I read somewhere a while back that the only profit GM makes these days is on finance charges, it hasn't made a dime selling cars for donkey's years. Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China.

"Well yeah, if you don't consider style performance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior. mance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior."

Had to read that thrice...almost fell out my chair!

Oh...you weren't joking...Point by point, then...

1) Style? GM copies Japanese style from at least a generation from what's on the market now -- and does it poorly.

2) Performance? Yeah, gotta love those pushrod engines that sound like a Singer. Most GM passenger cars are shod with tires more suitable for the rental fleets to which a large amount of said GM cars will find homes.

3) Price? Can't argue with you there. For some reason, GM needs to give large incentives to get people to buy their crap (remember the "employee discounts"?). Funny, Nissan, Honda and Toyota don't seem to need sales tricks to move cars. Oh, and lest I forget: please research some resale values for comparable models/years and see what you come up with. Value amortized over time should also be a factor when considering price. If the GM car is going to be worth half of what you paid for it new in five years, yet a comparable Honda that may have cost a bit more will retain 75 percent of its value over the same period, which is really the better deal?

Mexican scabs...
That sounds like something you would get after a night in Tijuana.

Posted by JeffnDenmark


FF for Jeff!! Effin' funny@!

"Well yeah, if you don't consider style performance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior. mance or lower prices Toyota and Nissan are far superior."

The illusion of superior quality in foreign cars is just that... an illusion.

FF for Jeff!! Effin' funny@!

Posted by MrFair at 2007-09-24 03:01 PM

If you think that is so darn funny....you might want to consider getting a life.

If you think that is so darn funny....you might want to consider getting a life.

Posted by ride_on

Maybe you should consider getting a sense of humor. You know - ha ha?

you might want to consider getting a life.

Posted by ride_on at 2007-09-24 03:11 PM | Reply

lighten up francis

1) Style? GM copies Japanese style from at least a generation from what's on the market now -- and does it poorly."
Yup like the vett, trucks, impala, monte carlo, cobalt, hhr, GTO.
But you can have the aveo you know the one manufactured by sazuki.


2) Performance? Yeah, gotta love those pushrod engines that sound like a Singer. Most GM passenger cars are shod with tires more suitable for the rental fleets to which a large amount of said GM cars will find homes.


Those pushrod engines, is that supposed to be an insult? Although Their 4 and six cyl are soch or dohc they employ pushrods in their trucks and high performance motors.
So does nissan or toyota have a eleven second car?
How about honda?
yeah there are some supercars out there but any besides the vette that are under 75,000?

As for the tires, they are 60,000 mile tires they last longer.

Style? GM copies Japanese style from at least a generation from what's on the market now -- and does it poorly.


Could you be more specific - I don't see it that way.


Performance? Yeah, gotta love those pushrod engines that sound like a Singer.

Pushrod engines don't take up as much space under the hood as do overhead cam engines. GM is wise to continue to use them in some applications (GM offers a wide array of overhead cam engines as well). Also, GM's pushrod V-8's perform favorably against almost all of their competitors' overhead cam V8's - this is particularly true in regards to trucks and SUV's.


Most GM passenger cars are shod with tires more suitable for the rental fleets to which a large amount of said GM cars will find homes.


That simply depends on the model within the model. For those who wish to have more rubber, Sport packages are avaialable on most of their products. Fact is, those tires that you bemoan are more workable in poor weather conditions (snow and ice) than larger, lower-profile tires.


Price? Can't argue with you there. For some reason, GM needs to give large incentives to get people to buy their crap (remember the "employee discounts"?). Funny, Nissan, Honda and Toyota don't seem to need sales tricks to move cars. Oh, and lest I forget: please research some resale values for comparable models/years and see what you come up with. Value amortized over time should also be a factor when considering price. If the GM car is going to be worth half of what you paid for it new in five years, yet a comparable Honda that may have cost a bit more will retain 75 percent of its value over the same period, which is really the better deal?


You raise a lot of good points here - very little for me to contradict.

Re-sale (residual value) is huge when calculating leasing rates. The fact that Japanese cars tend to have higher residuals makes them more attractive in terms of lease payments, which is a primary reason why the likes of GM and Ford discount so heavily (the gap between sale price and residual value is really what determines the cost of a lease, among some other factors. Incentives are offered to reduce the level of gap between sale price and residual value).

What about the GM workers in Canada and Mexico? Are they on strike too?

They're not on strike but the feeder plants will soon shut down, as well as those who get parts from American plants.

And, of course, the outside vendors will shut down. Big ripple effect.

Maybe even in China...

Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China.

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt

Too late. GM sells a shitload of cars overseas already. Most are fuel efficient small cars that Americans are too moronic to buy. Buick is the official state car of the Chinese government.

So does nissan or toyota have a eleven second car?
How about honda?
yeah there are some supercars out there but any besides the vette that are under 75,000?

Why do you need an 11 second car? Why does anybody?
Are you 17 or something?
Maybe you live 1/4 mile away from work and you need to get there in 11 seconds?
Ridiculous and mind numbingly stupid.

"Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China."


When does one lose sight that these people are not just 'union workers'? These people are Americans.
These people are Americans who are faced with the same cold reality as all other Americans, whether belonging to the UAW or not...Given the opportunity Corporate America has proven time and time again that they would take an ant farm overseas just to increase their profit margins and will not so much as take their next breath before forgetting about the American worker they left behind.

Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China.

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt

Every company is doing this, whether they're union or not. Whose fault is it when a non-union shop closes up and goes to Mexico?
How do you explain the booming steel and auto industry in Canada?

Given the opportunity Corporate America has proven time and time again that they would take an ant farm overseas just to increase their profit margins and will not so much as take their next breath before forgetting about the American worker they left behind.

Posted by MsChris

What about the Japanese automakers that have taken jobs away from Japan and put them here in the USA?

"""How do you explain the booming steel and auto industry in Canada?"""

Strong unions and lobbying.

Ah yes. The predictable American car versus Japanese car argument.

Anymore though, the argument becomes so muddled as to be nonsensical. What constitutes an American car these days?

GM is buying engines from China.

Subaru is building cars in Tennessee.

Ford builds cars in Mexico.

Saturn is designing passenger cars that are based off of Opel platforms. (In fact, the new Saturn Astra is an Opel Astra, built in Belgium.)

Small Mazda pickup trucks are really Ford Rangers, or is it the other way around.

The Pontiac GTO is based off of Aussie designs by Holden (down under GM).

What about the Japanese automakers that have taken jobs away from Japan and put them here in the USA?

Posted by MrFair at 2007-09-24 03:53 PM |

An obvious strategy to have amuricans "buy amurican".

Plus Japan ain't quite comparable to China...ie. not quite an "ant farm".

From my link above:

In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson.

"Most people don't think of our health-care system as being a competitive advantage," he said.

Tanguay said Toyota's decision on where to build its seventh North American plant was "not only about money."

"It's about being in the right place," he said, noting the company can rely on the expertise of experienced Cambridge workers to help get Woodstock up and running.

Ridiculous and mind numbingly stupid.

Posted by RastaCyborg at 2007-09-24 03:29 PM | Reply

Don't infringe on people's right to drive stupid now.

BTW I laugh my ass of when I see someone weaving in and out of rush hour traffic like a moron only to get stuck behind some old granny doing 50. I love it!

A hex on all american cars!

Rusty buckets of obsolete shit.

Glory days for sure but you can't ride a reputation for 40 years and expect to survive.

Zot,

I agree. The illusion of Japanes cars being better than US cars is just that... an illusion.

"What about the Japanese automakers that have taken jobs away from Japan and put them here in the USA?"

Posted by MrFair


Hmmm, lets see... Since 2001, Roughly 2.5 million manufacturing jobs and close to 1 million professional service and information sector jobs have been lost to the American worker, right here in the good ol' USA. How many jobs would you say that Japan has replaced?

The illusion of Japanes cars being better than US cars is just that... an illusion....

I loved my Toyota Corolla. Only recently got rid of it and it lasted for years.

"Ridiculous and mind numbingly stupid."

So what are your hobbies? do you fish or play computer games? is john Force and tony Schumacher childish?


"Most are fuel efficient small cars that Americans are too moronic to buy"


yea like a atorm or a swift. come on, if someone wants a decent car they are a moron? sorry buddy keep your 89 civic or new prius some of the rest of us want a real car.

Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China.

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt

Why would you wish that?

Last time I checked it just was not the Union involved in the negotiations. There are two sides to this.

Being a blind corporate apologist will prevent you from seeing what is really going on.

I loved my Toyota Corolla. Only recently got rid of it and it lasted for years.

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-24 04:05 PM | Reply |

Love is an emotion. A feeling. That is part of the illusion. The most recent quality studies back up that American made cars are on par with Japanese cars.

726

What part of GM is not making any money do you not understand? You cannot run a business that way, eventually you go tits up. So what is it to be, cuts in pay and benefits which will hurt in the short term (and I am including CEOs on down with those cuts by the way) or closing of the plant completely, which will hurt alot more in the long term. It looks to be simple economics to me, being an alleged blind corporate apologist has little or nothing to do with it.

I understand fully that GM is not making money.

Does that stop the CEO from taking his pay and perks? Share the pain.

Both sides enter into the contract so to place all the blame on the Union is not being quite honest now is it?

Take a look at what the CEO/Mgt is making and then see if they are sharing the pain.

I just love how Delphi demanded a 1/3 pay cut for the workers in bankruptcy then asked the judge to approve millions of dollars in bonuses.

Too late. GM sells a shitload of cars overseas already. Most are fuel efficient small cars that Americans are too moronic to buy.

Why do you need an 11 second car? Why does anybody?
Are you 17 or something?
Maybe you live 1/4 mile away from work and you need to get there in 11 seconds?
Ridiculous and mind numbingly stupid.

Posted by RastaCyborg

I understand fully that GM is not making money.

Does that stop the CEO from taking his pay and perks?

No. And that sucks. However, it wouldn't change the profit picture of the company. Which is the point.

What could be done to fix the woes of the American Auto Industry?

All partianship aside.

What could be done to fix the woes of the American Auto Industry?


The problem is much larger than this, but a good place to start would be to recognize that the mid-size family sedan is the bedrock to the long-term viability of any mainstream automaker.


Chrysler has a good product in the 300C/Charger line. However, those vehicles are slightly above the mid-size threshold. In the mid-size threshold we are really looking at the Sebring line, which ain't cuttin' it.

GM also has 2 product-lines straddling the mid-size segment. The Pontiac G6 (formerly known as Grand Am)and her counterparts - which is a mediocre line. Pontiac is about to release the G8 (formerly known as Grand Prix) which will have its divisional equivalents (Chevy, Buick, etc) as well. The current inhabitants are inadequate (Buick Lacrosse, Chevy Impala, etc).


Ford has the Fusion, which drives very well AND it outscored the Camry and Accord in JD Power for initial quality. Ford redesigned the tepid 500 and resurrected the Taurus badge. It's a pretty good vehicle now with a shitload of interior and trunk space.

Actually, love is a decision. There are emotions and feelings that go along with, of course.

I'll leave aside your assertion that American cars are "on par with Japanese" ones. I simply don't believe it, but you're free to decide for yourself. But the market simply doesn't agree. Compare the resale values of a Lincoln Navigator and a Lexus SUV, or a Honda Civic versus anything by Ford. If American cars are made better, that sure is a surprise to tens of millions of used-car buyers.

Today, the average CEO makes 400x what the average, everyday worker earns. In other words, today's CEO is earning an average annual salary of $10 million a year. Keep in mind, that the average worker will not see $10 million in their lifetime.


"What part of GM is not making any money do you not understand? You cannot run a business that way, eventually you go tits up."

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt


Clearly, well at least this makes sense to me, if GM were truely "tits up" someone, somewhere along the lines would suggest that GM revert back to 1965, when the average CEO was only pulling in 20x more than the average worker. Did you hear me? Just 20x more...

You can have Your glorified Volkswagon Zat I will stick to the MayBach. Least I can make out in the back recliner seats without getting a fucking Charley Horse. Even though the base price for one is in the neighborhood of 350 Grand.

Larry

Posted by JeffJ :

"Most of the 'rednecks' this post was likely addressed to simply can't tow a trailer with a Prius, or load up the trunk of a prius with 1000 lbs of concrete."

Yes, but:

Toyota Tundra

Nissan Titan

The Japanese have encroached on what was once sacred US turf: the American pickem-up truck.

"Who 'needs' a plasma screen TV? Yet, the fact that some people 'want' a plasma screen TV doesn't mean they shouldn't shop around for the best value. "

I wanted one. I needed one. I shopped around for one. I have one. I looooove my 42-inch Panasonic Viera plasma TV. I hug it every day. We're getting married soon.

Pancho,

I didn't click the link, but I don't need to.

'Lotuscars'.


You'd be talking about the Lotus Exige and Elise. Yes, on the handling circuit they outperform just about everything. They also lack even the most basic of amenitites. Try taking the wife on a weekend sojourn in an Elise. Better hope your wife really likes the clothes on her back cuz the car doesn't have any cargo space (the Vette has 22 cubic feet). Better travel with earplugs as the drone of that Toyota 1.8 4 cylinder gets quite tiresome over anything longer than a short distance.


The Elise/Exige is a niche vehicle. It's a car intended for the track that is barely street legal. Don't get me wrong, it's a great vehicle. However to compare it with a Vette is comparing apples to oranges.

Hmmm, lets see... Since 2001, Roughly 2.5 million manufacturing jobs and close to 1 million professional service and information sector jobs have been lost to the American worker, right here in the good ol' USA. How many jobs would you say that Japan has replaced?

Posted by MsChris


Oh - I thought we were talking cars, not entire manufacturing industries. Silly me.

Tell Me something. What is the capacity of the trunk space of a Prius?? ANYONE know??

Larry

"Least I can make out in the back recliner seats"

You gonna drive it or fuck it?

Zot,


The Tundra and the Titan are both credible entries into the pickup truck market.

Larry,


I could easily find out.


Off the top of my head I'd guess 10 cubic feet.

Did you hear me? Just 20x more...

Posted by MsChris

This is a clear difference vs. the Japanese for sure. I don't know the stats but knowing Japanese culture I'm pretty sure their execs are not making 400x the average Joe.

BOTH Zat for 350 THOUSAND Dollars wouldn't YOU want to get Your monies worth out of it??

Larry

This is why GM is such a supporter of Bush's "Guest Worker" program.

Soon, they won't only be caring for your kids and lawn, they'll be building your cars too.....and the cars will still suck because American cars suck big green moose cock. Except the Jeep Wrangler!

Let's see...

Given the opportunity Corporate America has proven time and time again that they would take an ant farm overseas just to increase their profit margins and will not so much as take their next breath before forgetting about the American worker they left behind. Posted by MsChris

"What about the Japanese automakers that have taken jobs away from Japan and put them here in the USA?" Posted by MrFair at 2007-09-24 03:53 PM

Hmmm, lets see... Since 2001, Roughly 2.5 million manufacturing jobs and close to 1 million professional service and information sector jobs have been lost to the American worker, right here in the good ol' USA. How many jobs would you say that Japan has replaced? Posted by MsChris


"Oh - I thought we were talking cars, not entire manufacturing industries. Silly me."

Posted by MrFair at 2007-09-24 05:00 PM | Reply



No, no, no...Silly me. I thought your 3:53 post was an inquiry with a direct specific regard to the amount of jobs that the Japanese automaker had put here in the USA. What was I thinking???

And, I suppose you will tell me and everyone else what the 'facts' are.

As a manufacturing engineer for close to 25 years, and one who has worked with the UAW in farm equipment manufacturing, I can tell you that the 'facts' remains quite simple and constant: that those who design, engineer, manufacture, market, and profit from manufacturing output control ALL of the forces that allow it to be a successful enterprise. A manufacturers willingness to procure, train, and hold on to skilled production employees is equal to it's own commitment to it's own products. Cutting corners in design, engineering, manufacturing and personell in order to maximize profits to investors is, historically AND factually, a self-fulfilling prophecy of doom to the corporation. See Studebaker, American Motors, US Steel (pre-1983), Allis-Chalmers, International Harvester as some of the most classic examples.

I say remove the back seats of the Prius. If You are haulling 1000 pounds of Cement You don't need the back seats and I believe getting the bags of cement in will be no problems. Now You MAY have to add roller skates to the back end of the Prius just to keep it from tipping towards the rear. It's doable.

Larry

"The Tundra and the Titan are both credible entries into the pickup truck market."


I'll give you the toyota, always been a good truck. the titan has yet to be proven to me. They are both half-tons, there is no forgin truck that can compare with a 2500 and up or a f250 and up(purposely left out dodge as they have yet to make a decent truck)

"""Better hope your wife really likes the clothes on her back cuz"""

Clothes? What clothes. Bikini and a handbag.


I'd rather get shot in the face than to drive a vette built after '68.

No, no, no...Silly me. I thought your 3:53 post was an inquiry with a direct specific regard to the amount of jobs that the Japanese automaker had put here in the USA. What was I thinking???

Posted by MsChris

No I never said anything about the amount of jobs. I was really asking that in the context of companies moving things to other countries, but nothing comparing numbers. And I was only referring to the automobile industry.

Members of the United Automobile Workers union walked off the job today at General Motors

Shouldn't it say "Members of the United Automobile Workers union are delusional to think that their jobs are not expendable so they should consider themselves lucky they still have a job in America manufacturing cars"

BOWA,

In all fairness, I suppose that statement should be appropriately applied to any American worker whether a Union member or not.

-MsChris

In all fairness, I suppose that statement should be appropriately applied to any American worker whether a Union member or not.

I wouldn't say it could be be applied to any american worker, but I would agree that every american manufacturing workers job is threatened by foreign competition.

But that is just the way things work, as economies change and grow.

At one time, we were the manufacturing center of the world, and now it is China and India.

And when the workers in those nations start to reap the benefits of global capitalist largesse, then the manufacturing center will move to another place that can produce goods at a lower cost.

At one time, we were the manufacturing center of the world, and now it is China and India.

And when the workers in those nations start to reap the benefits of global capitalist largesse, then the manufacturing center will move to another place that can produce goods at a lower cost.

Posted by Bowa

I recently saw an article from 100 years ago (will try to remember what it was - maybe The Atlantic?) about India and China taking over the textile trade and stealing American jobs. 100 years ago.

726 and MsChris

Do you people not read posts, but just cherry pick the bits that suit your purpose? When I was talking about cutbacks in GM I specifically said the following:

"cuts in pay and benefits which will hurt in the short term (and I am including CEOs on down with those cuts by the way)"

But of course you conveniently developed a form of point blindness when it came to that comment and immediately used "what about the CEOs?" to attack my premise. This wealth envy thing is a nasty disease, I hope its not contagious.

"General Motors' automotive operations have a combined working capital position of deficit $15.4 billion."

So the UAW striking is going to help this situation how?. It appears to me that going on strike to get a better deal with a company who has a deficit of 15.4 billion is akin to literally killing the goose that lays the golden egg. If the union cannot see that then they deserve every pink slip that is undoubtedly in their future.

Right now GM spends more money on servicing the retirement and benefits of past workers that were "negotiated" (read blackmailed under threat of strike) by the unions, than they do paying the pay and benefits of current workers, no company can survive with that kind of burden, ESPECIALLY when they can't produce a product that people actually want to buy.

...Do you people not read posts, but just cherry pick the bits that suit your purpose?...

It's much more fun that way.

These poeple have the last of the non-outsourced manufacturing jobs and they won't be happy till their all unemployed and some goof in Equador is making his car for 2 bucks a day...Stupiud Unions

I got admire these rightie tighties, they could careless about our soldiers abroad in iraq and apparently they could careless about our workers here in America.

How in the fuck can they call themselves a patriotic American.

They root for a single entity Corporation over the benefit of millions of Americans. How fucked up is that?

GM owes millions and millions of dollars to the pension fund and you all dismiss it like it is the fault of the workers.

A contract is a fucking contract and you rightie tighties seem to think a contract is only valid and honored if it benefits the Corporations. Where do you get your values?

I struggle and struggle to understand and make any sense of this with you righties but just can't see why anyone ever would listen to you about anything knowing how convoluted and lack in common sense and morals you clearly show.

If GM can't help the WORKER in America, fuck GM, they are NO GOOD to AMERICA then. How come you can't seem to get that through you bloody head.

Your rightie tighties think it is great to go to Iraq and get Iraqi oil for the betterment of our nation but then turn on the American people for wanting to keep the living conditions they have here.

What kind of fucked up priority is that???

People really need to see your party for what it really is, not interested in the people of America.

These poeple have the last of the non-outsourced manufacturing jobs and they won't be happy till their all unemployed and some goof in Equador is making his car for 2 bucks a day...Stupiud Unions

The only stupid individual is YOU!!!

You are praising GM for taking jobs to Equador over Americans fighting to sustain their working conditions here in America.

A real American winner you are, mind dead and dumb!

$War,


A contract is a fucking contract


Yes.

Fact is, many of these workers (now retiring) made certain decisions based upon promises made via their employment contracts. Pension liabilities are tough, but they have to be honored IMO.



If GM can't help the WORKER in America, fuck GM, they are NO GOOD to AMERICA then.


I don't see how GM going belly-up is good for the UAW workers under her employ. Both parties are going to have to make some difficult concessions - yes, even the worker.

I wouldn't say it could be be applied to any american worker, but I would agree that every american manufacturing workers job is threatened by foreign competition.

Manufacturing is not threatened by foreign competition, there is no competition. American corporations are teaching, training, and moving their factories to foreign lands creating the loss of manufacturing. There is no competition if the companies are actually just moving creating the appearance of competition for just one thing...profit.

Our corporations are doing nothing but downing America for money, the real corporate patriotism and it is being praised by these republican righties as the correct thing to do.

I don't see how GM going belly-up is good for the UAW workers under her employ. Both parties are going to have to make some difficult concessions - yes, even the worker.

The difference here is GM wants the employees to continue making the sacrifice so GM can continue to gain in the profits.

Well, the workers have been sacrificing for some years now and GM still doesn't change. Maybe the workers need to say enough, GM lose some of the profit and just maybe the responsibility will change because the money loss is not from the worker but from those who are making the shitty decisions.

Stop making excuses for piss poor management and expecting the workers to take on the burden. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

Manufacturing is not threatened by foreign competition, there is no competition. American corporations are teaching, training, and moving their factories to foreign lands creating the loss of manufacturing. There is no competition if the companies are actually just moving creating the appearance of competition for just one thing...profit.


Are you suggesting that the entire automotive industry is 1 big trust?

If so, please elaborate.

If not, please clarify this statement.

Jeff J-
re: Manufacturing is not threatened by foreign competition, there is no competition. American corporations are teaching, training, and moving their factories to foreign lands creating the loss of manufacturing. There is no competition if the companies are actually just moving creating the appearance of competition for just one thing...profit.

He's got a point. Did you read about Mattel's apology to China? (use the googles on the internets)

$War,


The difference here is GM wants the employees to continue making the sacrifice so GM can continue to gain in the profits.


What profits?


Stop making excuses for piss poor management and expecting the workers to take on the burden. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

I recognize the GM managment has made it's share of shitty decisions and they bear responsibility for that. All of that said, we can't change the past. They are where they are and in order to go forward with the least burn accross the board, concessions on both sides are going to have to be made.

Jeff J.,

You are soo so naive about corporations.

The Japanese companies will continue to win because they are not only thinking about there company but also thinking about what is good for JAPAN.

U.S. corporations could careless about America, they are proving it everyday and continue to get repocon supporters trouncing on Americans for what they should be fighting for.

In America, the worker makes no decisions for the direction of the corporation but yet they pay for it. Now I call that responsibility.

What profits?

You don't sell something you lose money on and the fact you don't understand this would make you a questionable management asset for any company.

What profits?

You don't sell something you lose money on and the fact you don't understand this would make you a questionable management asset for any company.

$War,


If you want me to see things your way you are going to have to work at it. You are going to have to convince me.


Here's a hint: Operating under the assumption that I am a fucking idiot isn't helping your cause.

Here's a hint: Operating under the assumption that I am a fucking idiot isn't helping your cause.

Posted by JeffJ

I was about to post the same thing.

Money, I think Jeff has asked several good questions.

Jeff J.,

I apologize for the rhetorical condescention it was uncalled for, but am getting tired of the righties rooting for the demise of real Americans.

I know you understand the corporate arena and know full well that what one hears in the public mainstream is not near what is happening behind closed doors.

I equate it to a pro-sports team wanting to move from one city to another because they say they are losing money. On paper they may minipulate the data to suggest such but in reality they are gaining millions and am surprised you are taking the tacked that GM is a losing enterprise.

I have not read all of the demands of the UAW but from what I have read they are being very reasonable, it is GM who is being obtuse.

I equate it to a pro-sports team wanting to move from one city to another because they say they are losing money. On paper they may minipulate the data to suggest such but in reality they are gaining millions

Not a good analogy....how are their workers doing?

Eberly,

Yes, I agree, it is usually why I enjoy conversations with Jeff J. on occasions because he can sometimes be open and willing to converse with the idea of us both learning from our perspectives.

Year after year these corporate institutions say they are losing money and even reporting losses but yet they remain and yet they invest and buy other institutions. How can that be?????? Something is not being reported quite right I would say.

The UAW and its workers are not hurting GM, GM is hurting itself, GM is the decision maker.

The information thrown out is done by GM to cast the idea they are the harmed party and look what these evil workers are doing to our company.

If GM was asked to open their entire books so people could see exactly what the financial status truely was GM would say no. Why, because they don't want the real figures out.

It just shocks me to listen to people praising the Corporations and trounce on the worker like this corporation is the king of greatness and morality and out rightly looking out for what is best for this country.

Sad to say, those foreign corporations are looking out for what is best for their country.

Not a good analogy....how are their workers doing?

Afraid you missed the corporate point!

If GM was asked to open their entire books so people could see exactly what the financial status truely was GM would say no. Why, because they don't want the real figures out.

How do you know that? I'm not stumping for GM and the decisions they own, however, pretending to be broke????????? What does that do to their stock price? What is the financial impact of that?

All this to keep wages low?

that argument would hold more weight if these companies were privately held.

It's cool, Money.


I know this is a subject that you feel strongly about and I normally welcome some back and forth.

However, tonight I prefer to discuss this one rationally.

I understand the back-handedness and quick-buck mentality that is somewhat pervasive within corporate America. I also understand that the economic models that are so utilized by my side (not that we are taking sides) are never perfect, as they are reliant upon rational behavior, and people aren't always rational.


Part of the problem is that the value of unskilled labor has been artificially driven up. I've used one of my cousins as exhibit A in the past. He works on the line for Mazda. Between his pay and benefits he's able to support his family (wife and 3 kids) to a middle class lifestyle. However, his work on the line is unskilled and he's the first to admit it. I am ecstatic that a recovering alcholic who spent a bit of time in jail for petty theft was able to find, and keep, work that compensates him in such a manner. The problem is that people exist, all over the world, who are willing to perform the exact same work for less. This increasing labor supply drives down the value of said labor. These market forces are inescapable, no matter how hard we try.

Here's a couple of rhetorical questions for you to illustrate my point:

Should we avoid the use of robotics because it replaces human labor?

What about the agricultural plow?


Etc.


My point being, we don't cling to outdated technology because doing so hurts us long-term. With that analogy we need to recognize (unless you can persuade me otherwise) that manufacturing work doesn't bring home the bacon as well as it used to. Thereofore, we should be looking to steer our workforce into other areas. This is true of a lot of industries, products and companies. Example, I wouldn't invest in tape recorders - it's outdated technology.


Anyhow, I hope a coherent point came accross in this jumbled post.

Eberly,

Do you do your own taxes or do you take them to an accountant?

Accountant

Jeff J.
re: Anyhow, I hope a coherent point came accross in this jumbled post.

It did. What function do you perform that could not be outsourced to a much more eager and deserving foreign national?

$War,


If GM was asked to open their entire books so people could see exactly what the financial status truely was GM would say no. Why, because they don't want the real figures out.


Those books are audited by one of the big-5 accounting firms. Cooking those books can spell the end of said accounting firms, just ask Arthur Andersen.

My dad is a retired partner from one of those firms (NOT A. Andersen!). What you are suggesting simply doesn't jive with my understanding of how these things work; particularly in a publicly-held company.

Part of the problem is that the value of unskilled labor has been artificially driven up.

First, this is rhetorical crap at best. YOU are unskilled, I could take an uneducated individual with 6 months of training and get him to perform your job to a satisfactory level and deep down I know you know this. Unskilled is just another propaganda tool of the Corporate arena to justify the means.

am ecstatic that a recovering alcholic who spent a bit of time in jail for petty theft was able to find

Meaningless information as propaganda to try an justify his "unskilled" status.

Should we avoid the use of robotics because it replaces human labor?

I am all for robotics, those robots can be made here so the loss in manufacturing to the car industries improvement process can be picked up in making the robots.

The problem is that people exist, all over the world, who are willing to perform the exact same work for less.

The corporations are not using comparative advantage as you are trying to say, they are picking up their factories and training the cheaper workforce to become skilled at with less earnings in making the product.

Nissan moving down south took 1 year to train its new American employees to build their cars. Yet you can sit and say that is unskilled. One year training in a company is easily 4 years of college by any measure. Just total up the hours of study.

Jeff J-
re: I've used one of my cousins as exhibit A in the past. He works on the line for Mazda. Between his pay and benefits he's able to support his family (wife and 3 kids) to a middle class lifestyle. However, his work on the line is unskilled and he's the first to admit it. I am ecstatic that a recovering alcholic who spent a bit of time in jail for petty theft was able to find, and keep, work that compensates him in such a manner. The problem is that people exist, all over the world, who are willing to perform the exact same work for less.

Your elation aside, how does your "alcholic" cousin feel about being "exhibit A"?

Cooper,

I am in management.


I am paid, in part, for what I know as opposed to what I do.

Jeff J-
I am in management.


I am paid, in part, for what I know as opposed to what I do.

LOL!

Your elation aside, how does your "alcholic" cousin feel about being "exhibit A"?


I've never asked him.


Since he's candid about his work and his past, and since I haven't misrepresented him in any way I suspect he'd be cool with it.

Eberly,

Accountant.

Don't you just hate that, why, not only because you are trying to reduce your money earned from going to this evil government but also isn't it because now this person gets an inside look at your money decision process? The accountant can actually see and question your money decisions and whether they were common sense or not.

Not that I am saying your decisions are bad but am using this process to show the insecurity of possible poor decisions.

Jeff J-
So what do you know, since you don't do anything?

Those books are audited by one of the big-5 accounting firms. Cooking those books can spell the end of said accounting firms, just ask Arthur Andersen.

My dad is a retired partner from one of those firms (NOT A. Andersen!). What you are suggesting simply doesn't jive with my understanding of how these things work; particularly in a publicly-held company.

It is not cooking the books and I think you know this.

The accounting firm doing the books becomes the employee of said company. They are experts at moving money around to show the least amount of profit even to an extent of showing a loss. Wow! GM is doing great!

Jeff J-
re: Since he's candid about his work and his past, and since I haven't misrepresented him in any way I suspect he'd be cool with it.

Posted by JeffJ at 2007-09-24 10:46 PM |

I'm sure he would. I can see the conversation now: "Hey, 'alcholic' cousin, I use you as 'exhibit A' on why you don't deserve your pay, and I do"

"cool, cuz"

First, this is rhetorical crap at best. YOU are unskilled, I could take an uneducated individual with 6 months of training and get him to perform your job to a satisfactory level and deep down I know you know this. Unskilled is just another propaganda tool of the Corporate arena to justify the means.

It would seem as though you belive all Americans with job skills up to the level of Jeff are "unskilled".

What is "unskilled" labor to you?

I am paid, in part, for what I know as opposed to what I do.

So are you saying a Chinese person who is willing to do your job for less is unable to make common sense, conservative decisions which reflect the company value?

I suppose those foreign managers now running the manufacturing plants are just as good as the American educated managers but are they getting the same pay????

$War,


First, this is rhetorical crap at best. YOU are unskilled, I could take an uneducated individual with 6 months of training and get him to perform your job to a satisfactory level and deep down I know you know this. Unskilled is just another propaganda tool of the Corporate arena to justify the means.


This is flat-wrong. By your logic ALL jobs be they executive, or skilled trade, or line work are unskilled. Basically, your underlying premise is that no employee is capable of justifying their value to their employer. If that is the case, why does anybody make more than minimum wage?


Meaningless information as propaganda to try an justify his "unskilled" status.

No, it's the truth. When he was young he was embroiled in alcholism and spent a few months in jail for petty theft. He decided that he never wanted to go to jail again and used that desire as the driving force behind going on the permanent wagon. He secured gainful employment and turned his life around. This is all true and is in no-way propaganda. Nor is the fact that his specific function on the line is in fact, unskilled labor, by his own free admission.


The corporations are not using comparative advantage as you are trying to say, they are picking up their factories and training the cheaper workforce to become skilled at with less earnings in making the product.


OK, for the sake of argument I'll accept this on its face. Aren't responsible companies supposed to cut operating costs? Aren't they supposed to seek process changes that improve efficiencies? If they can produce more for less, shouldn't they??


Nissan moving down south took 1 year to train its new American employees to build their cars. Yet you can sit and say that is unskilled.

I've never said that ALL manufacturing work is unskilled. However, the fact that some of it is unskilled is undeniable.

Don't you just hate that, why, not only because you are trying to reduce your money earned from going to this evil government but also isn't it because now this person gets an inside look at your money decision process?

No. What are you getting at?

Eberly-
It seems that some are paid to "know" that what they can't "do" can be done by anyone.

It would seem as though you belive all Americans with job skills up to the level of Jeff are "unskilled".

What is "unskilled" labor to you?

That is not what I said Eberly.

I just don't used the demeaning tool of propaganda to pander a justifiable means of political downing.

Unskilled, who came up with the term.

Just last year Bush pushed for a new definition of unskilled to skilled labor so they could control the supposed unskilled workers to use in labor practice as managers forcing overtime without having to pay for the time.

Are you saying all the offloading of our engineering is because our engineers are "unskilled?"

Jeff J-
re: OK, for the sake of argument I'll accept this on its face. Aren't responsible companies supposed to cut operating costs? Aren't they supposed to seek process changes that improve efficiencies? If they can produce more for less, shouldn't they??

Yes, they should. And you should recommend that your position be next, unless you can seriously argue that what you "know" is somehow so esoteric and particular to the US that it can't be understood in India or China.

It seems that some are paid to "know" that what they can't "do" can be done by anyone.

What "can't" I do? Just because someone raises their skill level in an area of expertise they "can't" do something else?

$War,

It is not cooking the books and I think you know this.

With your clarification below I know this - I know the legal manipulations of which you refer - the timing of transactions on the paperwork, etc.


The accounting firm doing the books becomes the employee of said company.

No. That is not the relationship that takes place. The accounting firm doing the books is the auditor of the company. It is not an employer/employee relationship in the least.



They are experts at moving money around to show the least amount of profit even to an extent of showing a loss. Wow! GM is doing great!


To a point, yes. However, the bigger picture is still the bigger picture - GM IS in real financial trouble.

Cooper,


Please cue me in as to when I, and what I do for a living, became the subject of this thread.

Are you saying all the offloading of our engineering is because our engineers are "unskilled?"

No. I want to know the definition of "unskilled labor".

jeff- no offense, but you kinda made yourself out to be an insensitive ass talking about your cousin and then yourself. The juxtaposition was not flattering in the least.

Jeff J-
re: No, it's the truth. When he was young he was embroiled in alcholism and...

I never doubted it was "true"; what I doubted was that he/she would enjoy the fact that you use him as "exhibit A" in who does not deserve their pay while claiming that you are above the cutting floor due to what you "know", as management.

(BTW, your cousin would probably appreciate it if, while belittling him while drinking, you could manage to spell "alcoholic". You should "know" that, right?)

Eberly-
re: No. I want to know the definition of "unskilled labor".

Unskilled labor is what Jeff J doesn't do.

Jeff J.,

First off, the information about your relative being a prior drunk and thief says nothing to his skill level in the workforce. I find it insulting to think you would think it does. Millions of Americans are alchoholics and infact some are unskilled CEO's.

I wonder if Letterman thinks he is less skilled because once he was a drunk?

OK, for the sake of argument I'll accept this on its face. Aren't responsible companies supposed to cut operating costs? Aren't they supposed to seek process changes that improve efficiencies? If they can produce more for less, shouldn't they??

Lets go back again, Japan corporations are not only thinking about their company but also what is good for their COUNTRY.

I've never said that ALL manufacturing work is unskilled. However, the fact that some of it is unskilled is undeniable.

Never said all jobs are unskilled, but you implied the justifiable means of reducing the benefits of labor and offshoring is because they are unskilled. I called you on it.

Engineers are quite skilled yet those jobs are being offshored.

I am sure foreign individuals could be found to take far less pay and run the CEO position of corporations would not bother you either. They are there, but why are they not being used?

Man, we are trying to engage in a meaningful discussion JUST ONCE without some pussified Iraq/oil deflection.

Cooper doesn't even fucking know the definition of unskilled labor but that doesn't stop him from chiming in on shit he doesn't understand.

(BTW, your cousin would probably appreciate it if, while belittling him while drinking, you could manage to spell "alcoholic". You should "know" that, right?)

Posted by Cooper

How long have you been in AA?

No. That is not the relationship that takes place. The accounting firm doing the books is the auditor of the company. It is not an employer/employee relationship in the least.

OK, I guess you don't get our millions of dollar accounts next year!

jeff- no offense, but you kinda made yourself out to be an insensitive ass talking about your cousin and then yourself. The juxtaposition was not flattering in the least.

Posted by Alexandrite

Jeff J-
re: Please cue me in as to when I, and what I do for a living, became the subject of this thread.

When your cousin became "exhibit A".

Jeff- I'm not trying to be nasty, just an observation so you can, in the future, avoid sounding like an elitist.

You're now "exhibit B", Jeff.

I'm sure you won't mind as long as we get the facts straight.

OK, I guess you don't get our millions of dollar accounts next year!

Posted by moneywar

Eberly,

Why not come at it from the positive side you are so fond of.

A skilled worker is any worker who has some special skill, knowledge, or (usually acquired) ability in his work. A skilled worker may have attended a college, university or technical school. Or, a skilled worker may have learned his skills on the job.

Wow! This puts a new twist to the issue, but I suppose you won't like this definition.

Jeff J-
re: I wasn't trying to belittle my cousin in any way. I admire the way he turned his life around.

Of course not. He's just an unskilled "alcholic" whose job is up for grabs, unlike you.

Jeff- I'm not trying to be nasty, just an observation so you can, in the future, avoid sounding like an elitist.

Posted by Alexandrite at 2007-09-24 11:24 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e


You're now "exhibit B", Jeff.

I'm sure you won't mind as long as we get the facts straight.


Posted by Cooper

you guys are full of shit. You don't believe Jeff do you? You are failing in your attempt to derail this thread from the reality of what is going on right now in this huge industry.

we all care about these workers and we would like to discuss a REALISTIC solution to the problem rather than Jeff's cousin.

Jeff- I'm not trying to be nasty, just an observation so you can, in the future, avoid sounding like an elitist.

Posted by Alexandrite


I appreciate that.

I abhor elitists and, as such, don't want to come off as one.

I'll be more cautious in my wording in the future.

Jeff-
re: My broader point still stands - 'Outsourcing' is considered bad, yet aren't companies supposed to reduce operating costs?

Your broader point was understood. As a member of "management", you are in no way under the same pressure as your "alcholic" cousin (otherwise known as 'exhibit A'), for who could possibly replace you?

To a point, yes. However, the bigger picture is still the bigger picture - GM IS in real financial trouble.

I can't say this to be true or false but I do KNOW it is not the workers fault if they are but yet we should punish them for the poor management practice.

They are in so much trouble, please tell me GM managers did not receive bonuses and raises. Please tell me the management is leading by example and reducing their benefits and wages like they expect the labor force.

What is funny, bonuses are usually tied in to good performance but yet they are some how reporting losses. By what measure are they using for performance? Oh, the labor force is the problem, not us managers, we managers did our jobs.

I am sure foreign individuals could be found to take far less pay and run the CEO position of corporations would not bother you either.

It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I am all for competition at all levels.


They are there, but why are they not being used?

I dunno. You tell me.

I abhor elitists and, as such, don't want to come off as one.

It might be a more direct approach if you tried not to be one and ooze it from every pore.

But a good understanding of the PR landscape would help where authenticity is lacking, I suppose.

Posted by moneywar at 2007-09-24 11:33 PM


All good points.

Are you aware that Ford execs got their bonuses in '06 (a year of record losses) because they were doing the right things and deserved to receive their pay?

I was absolutely disgusted by that!

Wow! This puts a new twist to the issue, but I suppose you won't like this definition.




Posted by moneywar

that is because it doesn't define anything. You know it.

Jeff-
It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I am all for competition at all levels.

Why don't you recommend the outsourcing of your betters when next you gather for doughnuts and coffee.

I'm sure they'd get a kick out of that.

Hey, eberly... when your opinion matters to me, you'll be the first to know.

Cooper,


I am starting to feel emberassed for you, so I'll throw you a bone on this:


Your broader point was understood. As a member of "management", you are in no way under the same pressure as your "alcholic" cousin (otherwise known as 'exhibit A'), for who could possibly replace you?

I lost 2 jobs during 2001 and spent about half of the year unemployed. It was a horrible situation that I don't wish on anyone. I came close to losing everything.


There! Now you can go and celebrate with glee that I endured a serious economic hardship in my lifetime. Perhaps, now that you got that out of me, you could actually participate in a positive manner to this discussion.

They are in so much trouble, please tell me GM managers did not receive bonuses and raises. Please tell me the management is leading by example and reducing their benefits and wages like they expect the labor force

You keep harboring on this money. Do you know the specifics of each bonus? do you know what it took to achieve them?

Your beef is aparently with the "unfairness" of everything.

Jeff J.,

'Outsourcing' is considered bad, yet aren't companies supposed to reduce operating costs?

Yes, they should reduce operating costs but do so with the understanding of what is also good for the nation.

I find it funny so many are praising the offloading of jobs costing our nation revenue and self-worth.

Never mind the future security of our nation. Now it looks fine, 20 years from now with no manufacturing plants and if attacked the length of time to start up manufacturing would be very long.

Boeing so far is 5 years in this new 787 and they have the ability already in place.

Jeff-
re: I am starting to feel emberassed for you...

Save it.

Ok everyone on the DR....who owns or leases a vehicle made in America by a company headquartered in America? Watch the whining and excuses fly on this one. My family owns nothing but made in America vehicles (by companies HQ in America).

Now it's your turn to answer............

I find it funny so many are praising the offloading of jobs costing our nation revenue and self-worth.

Who the hell is "praising" it?

I'll say again..."Operation costs" are nothing compared to the outright highway robbery of CEO pay and severance packages.

I mean, next you'll all be bitching about welfare costs when it's less than 1% of the budget...instead of bitching about pork and corporate welfare. Oops, never mind.

Why is it that the human species tends to go after corruption from the bottom up instead of vice versa?

Jeff-
Keep sucking up, and you may be recognized as above the commons. I'm sorry you've failed in the past, even though what you "know" is so much more valuable than what you can actually "do".

Hey, eberly... when your opinion matters to me, you'll be the first to know.

Posted by Alexandrite

bullshit. My opinion matters a great deal to you and other losers here.

How is that for "elitist?"

Your elation aside, how does your "alcholic" cousin feel about being "exhibit A"?

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-24 10:43 PM

His cousin feels less embarrassed than everyone feels for you Cooper...er Badweek/Boyd/etc.

Now it's your turn to answer............

Posted by ride_on

Pontiac Grand Prix

Honda Odyssey

Jeff J-
Here's a hint:

Save your "emberassed" emotions, and cut your "exhibit A alcholic" cousin some slack, and just get some rest.

G'night.

$War,

I find it funny so many are praising the offloading of jobs costing our nation revenue and self-worth.

It's not being 'praised.' It's simply a matter of recognizing that business is always in a state of flux. The nation's labor pool is best served (in the long-run) by remaining flexible. Emotionally clinging to a general field of work (I am not accusing you of this) only hurts workers in the long-run.

Save your "emberassed" emotions, and cut your "exhibit A alcholic" cousin some slack, and just get some rest.

Posted by Cooper

You don't even have a fucking job do you?

who else but an unemployable dipshit would post shit like that?

You keep harboring on this money. Do you know the specifics of each bonus? do you know what it took to achieve them?

Your beef is aparently with the "unfairness" of everything.

Posted by eberly at 2007-09-24 11:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Now Eberly, you have to understand why I don't take you all that serious.

Jeff J. acknowledged what my point was and understood it quite well. What happened to you?

un'skilled la'bor

1. work that requires practically no training or experience for its adequate or competent performance.
2. the labor force employed for such work.

G'night.

Posted by Cooper


Time to cook up a new name pussy?

Ride,


Acura RSX
Ford Taurus X

who else but an unemployable dipshit would post shit like that?

On who can spell?

(Oh...LOL...you didn't get that part!)

G'night.

Posted by Cooper


Nighty-night. Your contributions to the thread were stellar. You'll be sorely missed.

Eb,


You keep harboring on this money. Do you know the specifics of each bonus? do you know what it took to achieve them?


Money's point was more of a general statement. My comment regarding Ford is a real-life illustration of the point he was making.

Jeff J. acknowledged what my point was and understood it quite well. What happened to you?

I'm not justifying the bonuses but rather questoning your obsession with them.

I will get a minimum of a $50K bonus this year and I will be pissed if that is the total sum of it. You have to recognize how total compensation is determined.

Would you feel better if they just received the same income in a base salary?

Nothing happened to me. I'm not obsessed with other people's income and success either.

In any case, it doesn't have anything to do with why the auto industry is failing.

G'night.

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-24 11:50 PM

awww, don't go, I just got my popcorn and was going to sit back and watch *grin*

On who can spell?

this is what you always resort to Boyd. you have nothing else and you are covering up for it.

It's not being 'praised.

Not in wording but in meaningful tone?!

Then perhaps I should return for a aperitif?

It will give me that chance to ask Jeff what vital function he performs that is so skilled that he is not vulnerable to the winds of change that threaten "exhibit A".

Nothing happened to me. I'm not obsessed with other people's income and success either.

In any case, it doesn't have anything to do with why the auto industry is failing.


Posted by eberly at 2007-09-24 11:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Apparently you are if you think the unions are taking unfair advantage and getting more than what they think they should be paid.

Some how I don't think you will understand what I just said.

Ride,

I think everyone has had plenty of time to respond to your post.

boyd immediately dismissed himself (as if he has anything to get to) and, other than Jeff and myself, nobody else answered.

Jeff-
re: Emotionally clinging to a general field of work (I am not accusing you of this) only hurts workers in the long-run.

No, I'm accusing you of that.

Apparently you are if you think the unions are taking unfair advantage and getting more than what they think they should be paid.

You absolutely love to assign positions to others that don't exist. I didn't say anything about the unions.


Some how I don't think you will understand what I just said.

I should be saying that.

Not in wording but in meaningful tone?!

I think the tone is more of a resignation to the inevitable, than it is 'praise' for outsourcing.

Eberly,

What you don't understand is Jeff J. and I are very close in how we understand the economy at large, we just seek correction and betterment from different ideas and this is why we have good cross venting.

Jeff J. clearly understands what I am saying as I know he clearly knows I understand what he is saying.

I hope you get your bonus, good for you! Hope it is like golf, you get paid only if you perform.

Somehow I think all those workers performed what was set out for them and their reward should be a reduction for decisions they had nothing to do with.

Jeff J-
Your "tone" seems to imply that you are above the fray, when it is only your arrogance that implies that you are not replaceable, and your feelings of superiority that ignore your tenuous position.

when it is only your arrogance that implies that you are not replaceable, and your feelings of superiority that ignore your tenuous position.


I am replaceable and I am perfectly aware that my position is tenuous. That's a lesson I learned in 2001, when I lost 2 jobs.

Jeff J-
Do you really think that your position is somehow so steeped in erudition that you are immune to outsourcing? I'm sure that they need someone on site to ensure that the bathrooms have been cleaned, but beyond that...

What you don't understand is Jeff J. and I are very close in how we understand the economy at large, we just seek correction and betterment from different ideas and this is why we have good cross venting.

Jeff J. clearly understands what I am saying as I know he clearly knows I understand what he is saying.

Your conversation with JeffJ precludes you from answering simple questions raised by me?

sorry.

Jeff-
Say hey to "exhibit A" for me.

I think the tone is more of a resignation to the inevitable, than it is 'praise' for outsourcing.

It is only possible by bemoaning the unions and the workers and giving the corporations the public support for such.

Hell, I am in management and see the long term negative effect it will have upon this country. Our future is taking a foothold now and will increase as the years pass.

So also, are you saying all these like posters:

Unions sucking the life out of American companies again.

Are really for labor but are just apathetic to the control of offshoring?

Somehow I think all those workers performed what was set out for them and their reward should be a reduction for decisions they had nothing to do with.


Nicely stated!


Throughout my working life I've held positions that involved some performance-related bonus. I put forth the most effort when said bonus was tied to aspects of my work in which I had a fair amount of control. When said bonus was tied primarilly to shit beyond my control, it became more like winning a scratch-off lottery ticket than a dangled carrot inciting me to perform.

Eberly,

I own a 2 ford and 1 chevy and a honda motorcycle.

The reason for the honda motorcycle is it is by far a better design than Harley for half the price.

The reason for the honda motorcycle is it is by far a better design than Harley for half the price.

Posted by moneywar

TRAITOR!

Just kidding.

Jeff-
Does he have a name to you? (Exhibit A)?

I don't care to know it, I was just wondering if you referred to him as "exhibit A" when you were again drunk among your management friends, who are paid for what they "know", and not what they "do".

Your conversation with JeffJ precludes you from answering simple questions raised by me?

And what questions have I not answered? I seriously did not think I missed any.

So also, are you saying all these like posters:

Unions sucking the life out of American companies again.


Actually, I am not an anti-union guy.

I DO think unions aren't nearly as valuable to the worker as they were early in the 20th century as much of their fight then ultimately became law - min. wage, overtime, child labor laws, etc.


I also think that unions shoot themselves (and those whom they support) in the foot (on occasion) by supporting obvious leeches. I've witnessed this firsthand, although my personal experience in a union environment (spanning 1 whole year) caused me to conclude that many of the anti-union claims were simply overblown. Basically, I think the union themselves should take a harder-line against slackers, however, the horror stories are definitely over-sold (based upon my limited observations).

Money,

I have asked the true relevance of the unearned bonuses when compared to the peril of the industry.

What do you want us to do?

Eberly,

TRAITOR!

Just kidding.

Posted by eberly at 2007-09-25 12:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

Sometimes I feel as though I am, but since Harley is relying on name with questionable longevity design I quickly don't feel bad.

I don't like sitting on the side of the road in hot weather to let the engine cool. I like 60 miles a gallon to the 45. I like the shaft drive to multi-maintenance belt or chain drive.

Money,

The reason for the honda motorcycle is it is by far a better design than Harley for half the price.


My uncle (exhibit A's dad - and a different uncle than the one you and I have conversed about) would wholeheartedly concur. He's always bought American, usually Chevy; but he's owned nothing but Goldwings - for the exact same reasons you cite.

I don't care to know it, I was just wondering if you referred to him as "exhibit A" when you were again drunk among your management friends, who are paid for what they "know", and not what they "do".

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-25 12:26 AM | Reply | Flag


You're being so constructive, hate to see how your children turnout with all the harping!

You're being so constructive, hate to see how your children turnout with all the harping!

He has to get a woman willing to touch him first.

Sometimes I feel as though I am, but since Harley is relying on name with questionable longevity design I quickly don't feel bad.


Good for you!


Honda makes a better bike than Harley. You shouldn't settle out of a sense of Patriotism...in fact, you are doing Harley a disservice by doing so. You are only perpetuating their short-term ability to succeed based on name and 'cachet', whilst her competitors continue to widen the gap in terms of the quality of their products.

early meeting.

enjoy.

Ebs gets a funny at 1236!

have asked the true relevance of the unearned bonuses when compared to the peril of the industry.

What do you want us to do?

Posted by eberly at 2007-09-25 12:30 AM | Reply | Flag

Supporting the corporation isn't helping matters.

accepting news and media information for those corporations that LEAD by example should be the first priority and PRAISED by all.

Any Corporation that gives its managers bonuses while reporting losses and expecting their workforce to reduce its benefits and wages as well as put up with offshoring should be ridiculed not protected.

This is a political fight as well as a private one, why do you think such propaganda language is our in force.

Any Corporation that gives its managers bonuses while reporting losses and expecting their workforce to reduce its benefits and wages as well as put up with offshoring should be ridiculed not protected.


Absolutely.

We have a local radio show on WJR where the host (A conservative named Frank Beckman) totally ripped Ford, up and down, for the situation I mentioned earlier. I really enjoy his show - almost always quality.

Honda makes a better bike than Harley. You shouldn't settle out of a sense of Patriotism...in fact, you are doing Harley a disservice by doing so. You are only perpetuating their short-term ability to succeed based on name and 'cachet', whilst her competitors continue to widen the gap in terms of the quality of their products.

Jeff J.,

I agree here. It is a matter of common sense.

You, I know, would not be surprised that we see things very similar in this regard.

I like capitalism, just with regards to the betterment of the nation not just the corporations. Waiting for the long term turnaround effect it takes for actual consumer capitalism to take hold to correct poor management decisions it stupid in most regards.

Protect the people here, so we don't have to do it over there!

Jeff J.,

I agree the unions have lost what real focus they should have and quite frankly have allowed their management to make the worst decisions.

The Union management is equally as bad as the Corporate management but on the opposite end.

But at least the labor who is the majority of what makes this country go around gets some benefit. Too bad the corporations have not figured this out.

Well, most have not. Microsoft does a great job of paying well above the standard, but their success is continuely seen because of this. Same with Costco!

Protect the people here, so we don't have to do it over there!


That's a great play on words!



I like capitalism, just with regards to the betterment of the nation not just the corporations. Waiting for the long term turnaround effect it takes for actual consumer capitalism to take hold to correct poor management decisions it stupid in most regards.


This is a fine, but crucial point of disagreement. Oftentimes, forced market corrections via government have unintended consequences that result in negative tradeoffs that are arguably more detrimental, as a net measure, than the positives they generate. It's kinda like all of these miracle drug commercials, when they get to the end of the commercial and list all of the potential side-effects. I listen to that and think, "Gosh, the side-effects are worse than the problems this drug is claiming to cure!"

Moneywar-
re: You're being so constructive, hate to see how your children turnout with all the harping!

I'll condescendingly refer to my children as "exhibit A" and "exhibit B" when I make my constructive points.

Moneywar-
re: "Protect the people here, so we don't have to do it over there!"

Jeff will agree with you only after they come for his job. Until then, you will be "exhibit C".

Money,


Agreed regarding Costco.



Cooper,


I'll condescendingly refer to my children as "exhibit A" and "exhibit B" when I make my constructive points


I wasn't referring to my cousin as 'Exhibit A'. I was referring to his set of circumstances as 'Exhibit A'.

Big difference.

Cooper,


Before you make a bigger court-jester out of yourself - I'll save you the cut and paste time and clarify my referring to 'Exhibit A's dad'. I was using YOUR play on words.

Jeff-
Why don't you show him this thread, and gauge how the circumstances of "exhibit A" feels about it, sir?

Jeff-

re: I wasn't referring to my cousin as 'Exhibit A'. I was referring to his set of circumstances as 'Exhibit A'.

Big difference.

Posted by JeffJ at 2007-09-25 12:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

I suppose we are all just a set of circumstances, Jeff, but when you name a set of circumstances it is a person. "Exhibit A", for example.

But I can see that as one who gets paid more for what he knows than what he does, one (your set of circumstances) might be a real asshole.

Jeff J.,

For the most part I agree with you on forced market corrections, but sometimes when it is clearly seen to move Comparative advantage to absolute advantage something needs to be done, not wait for the market forces to make corrections.

The ones with absolute advantages can and do reduce the power of the market forces.

The economy is to serve the people for the benefit of the overwhelming majority and once lost it is very difficult to get it back. Usually takes a major negative event to make such a correction.

I wasn't referring to my cousin as 'Exhibit A'. I was referring to his set of circumstances as 'Exhibit A'.

That's even funnier every time I read it.

Jeff-
Why don't you show him this thread, and gauge how the circumstances of "exhibit A" feels about it, sir?


My comments regarding my cousin's circumstances are not judgements, nor are they editorialized. The tidbits I shared were HIS thoughts as he conveyed them to me over the course of various conversations. He'd have no problem with what I've said as I was merely parroting what he's told me.

I hail from a large family (my dad is the oldest of 7 siblings and my mom is 4 of 8, although she has 2 brothers who are deceased). I love my family, however I've grown closer to some over time and have drifted from others over time. 'Exhibit A' happens to be one of those with whom I've grown closer over time. He's a great guy who exudes a self-sacrificing attitude for the betterment of his family; in particular, his children.

Jeff J.,

I must be getting better at how I manage to communicate my thoughts through writing.

I am working on it, if you can't tell.

Jeff-
Show him the thread.

$War,


For the most part I agree with you on forced market corrections, but sometimes when it is clearly seen to move Comparative advantage to absolute advantage something needs to be done, not wait for the market forces to make corrections.


I understand what you are conveying and it's a salient point. Like a vast majority of issues, this one isn't all-or-nothing. This is where I part ways with those who tout free markets as the best solution in every circumstance. Personally, I think free market corrections are better most of the time. However, government intervention can result in net positives IMO. Where you and I probably disagree is in terms of degree and frequency - You likely feel that government solutions have a higher rate of success than do I.

The truth is, Jeff, that you were behaving as a condescending asshole, and I'm sure "exhibit A" - or his set of circumstances - would see that.

So show him the thread, and let us know what he thinks about it.

Jeff J.,

This is flat-wrong. By your logic ALL jobs be they executive, or skilled trade, or line work are unskilled. Basically, your underlying premise is that no employee is capable of justifying their value to their employer. If that is the case, why does anybody make more than minimum wage?

This could be a whole thread by itself.

My father once told me when I first made management was: "Remember, no matter how good you think you are there is someone above you who is worse and someone below you who is better."

I have found this to be true 100% of the time.

The overwhelming thing I have found is the higher the level of management, does not necessarily mean more intelligent and more educated, but usually means they have more access and more flow of information in which to make common sense practical decisions.

It is an information game and control of that information. Not skill level other than controling the information flow.

I must be getting better at how I manage to communicate my thoughts through writing.

I am working on it, if you can't tell.

Posted by moneywar

My comments regarding my cousin's circumstances are not judgements, nor are they editorialized. The tidbits I shared were HIS thoughts as he conveyed them to me over the course of various conversations. He'd have no problem with what I've said as I was merely parroting what he's told me.

Nicely stated, but because your cousin thinks his tasks at work are basic and unskilled does not mean this is necessarily correct.

Your cousin's mental and physical intellect could just give him the unique feeling that this job could be done by any individual with no training what so ever.

I am not sure the company would agree with his accessment, his pay would surely begin to reflect it.

Value is set by not only skill but benefit ratio.

My father once told me when I first made management was: "Remember, no matter how good you think you are there is someone above you who is worse and someone below you who is better."


My personal experiences and observations validate this.

The overwhelming thing I have found is the higher the level of management, does not necessarily mean more intelligent and more educated, but usually means they have more access and more flow of information in which to make common sense practical decisions.

You likely feel that government solutions have a higher rate of success than do I.

No, I don't agree.

I think the current Corporate solutions and market will not have the solutions of success like we would have 30 years ago.

Government solutions are worse because they are forced into making solutions to benefit all the people not just the majority and lack the ability to tweek those who are lost.

Your cousin's mental and physical intellect could just give him the unique feeling that this job could be done by any individual with no training what so ever.


In the course of performing his job on the line, he is effectively doing 1000 sit-ups per day - his words.


I don't know that I could personally do 100 sit-ups per day for more than a couple of consecutive days.


1000?

His job is definitely very demanding physically.

I don't know that I could personally do 100 sit-ups

Probably should have ended the sentence right there.

I think the current Corporate solutions and market will not have the solutions of success like we would have 30 years ago.

What changed that causes you to feel this way (yes, I know that several novels could be writted addressing this).


Government solutions are worse because they are forced into making solutions to benefit all the people not just the majority and lack the ability to tweek those who are lost.

Wow. This is not at all what I expected from you - which means I need to exert more care in my assessments by NOT assigning a position based upon some prejudice. This also paints a pretty bleak outlook on your part toward our long-term economic success........

Market solutions lack the effectiveness they had 3- years ago and government solutions are even worse!


You are bringing me down!

Probably should have ended the sentence right there.

Posted by OzarkAggie

Generally speaking, I've found that those who are in a position of higher authority (and are earning more money) deserve to be there. Nevertheless, total capabilities can't be completely broken down into easily measurable terms, and it becomes increasingly difficult to do so the higher the position within a corporate entity.

I agree, but does your boss perform better than you? I say no.

If your company place you in the exact position parallel and allowed you the same information your performance would be about the same after you were able to filter all the information available.

Those who could not would be weeded out rather quickly.

Alright, It's almost 2 AM here in Michigan and I've gotta dust the family room before hitting the hay.


Excellent discussion, Money!

His job is definitely very demanding physically.

I can't help but point out how society somehow feels that physical demands are less important in economic value than mental. In reality the demands can be the same.

Yes Jeff J., a most excellent discussion.

Wow. This is not at all what I expected from you - which means I need to exert more care in my assessments by NOT assigning a position based upon some prejudice. This also paints a pretty bleak outlook on your part toward our long-term economic success........

I am more conservative than you thought!?

Bleak only in our choosing of our leaders and expectations towards the betterment of our nation.

Corporation used to think about the nation and its continued success while weighing in on market stategies. I think this is done less in weight when profit comes into play now.

What changed that causes you to feel this way (yes, I know that several novels could be writted addressing this).

The cold war and the fear of communism. It is no longer required to have a big middle class to hold the feelings of communism at bay.

Ozark is 1, "Yeah, it's the union guys who design automobiles that are inferior to Toyota and Nissan."

What a crock! The Japanese cars came into the US and undersold American manufacturers and expressly because the unions not only forced wages/benefits, but they demanded the companies deal with only union providers!

A dictatorial group of organizations enforcing a union MONOPOLY on labor and the goods that labor produces!!!

Design and innovation were hogtied by union demands upping the cost of re-tooling.

"They're also the ones who keep voting more stock options for the CEO."

No one wants the job, anymore! Just look!

The US auto industry has been in the tank for years, due to high cost of production and their inability to re-tool at low cost, as the Japanese do without the extortion of Big Brother ...

Then, just as soon as there is an upswing in US car sales -- The F'ING UNION strikes to pull that advancement down, down, down and lose more jobs for workers!!!

Scum sucking UNIONs!

"Evil union guys."

In spades!

Design and innovation were hogtied by union demands upping the cost of re-tooling.

I'll admit they opposed the robots. Bad move. I wanted to get into robotics when I came out of the Navy. Spent a lot of time working on synchro-servo systems.

But the Japs actually appropriated and refined technology that was already developed by American companies.

Ever hear of a Rochester fuel injection system? How about Hilborn? Overdrive--though it was usually an add on, not integrated.

They also borrowed from the Brits. I can remember looking at their rack and pinions and thinking of my old MGB.

And they adopted the philosophy of an America in their factories. The actually asked the guys on the line what would work better. How to be more efficient, build a better product.

You're problem Taddy is that you really don't much about most of the issues you comment on, and revert to what you've heard from some PR hack.

Sucks to be you.

There is a solution.

Mike says, "But the Japs actually appropriated and refined technology that was already developed by American companies."

Unreal! They could do so because they weren't confined and tied-down by LABOR!

"And they adopted the philosophy of an America in their factories. The actually asked the guys on the line what would work better. How to be more efficient, build a better product."

They weren't charged through-the-nose for such advice, and where the UNIONS defeated innovation, as you admit!!!

"You're problem Taddy is that you really don't much about most of the issues you comment on, and revert to what you've heard from some PR hack."

I worked under union contract. As part of the agreement, the company hired outside labor on weekends, and payed a standard union wage for two-twelve hour shifts (part time) to college students. However, the new workers had to pay union dues, even though not full time employees (extortion).

The company produced aircraft parts; e.g., aluminum rivets, aluminum angle for struts and bracing, etc., and had a quota bonus for overproduction. I could put out 3 times the number of rivets on my quota, and during the time period alloted for it. I could produce twice the number of bent aluminum braces. I did so for my entire shift and for a two week pay period.

When the paychecks were handed out (by a union foreman doing overtime, himself) he informed me that if I produced more than quota again -- without the express permission of the union -- then I would have an unfortunate accident to my arm; which being broken, would disqualify me for work ...

I did another two weeks of over production, and quit the job after informing management of the threats against me ...

Scum unions and their thug members!

"Sucks to be you."

You must be a thug, eh?

RE: technology--
Unreal! They could do so because they weren't confined and tied-down by LABOR!

Wrong the Rochester fuel injection system came out in 57 on the Corvette.

GM introduced the V-6 in 62 or 63 on mid-sized cars like the F-85.

And the foot in the door for all foreign makes was the oil crisis in 73 and 79.

I just rebuilt a 302 two years ago at 158000 while my neighbor is still driving a Nissan that has over 100,000 MORE miles on it.

A lot of that has to do with tolerances in the bearings, and the materials they use. American companies adopted the "planned obsolescence in the 50's and never looked back.

Personally, I've been on several jobs where I was told not to be so eager, meaning productive, and none of them were union. So that's not just unions.

OTOH, you're such a pathetic ass, too bad you didn't stay until they broke more than your arm.

Ok everyone on the DR....who owns or leases a vehicle made in America by a company headquartered in America? Watch the whining and excuses fly on this one. My family owns nothing but made in America vehicles (by companies HQ in America).

Now it's your turn to answer............

Posted by ride_on at 2007-09-24 11:44 PM | Reply | Fla


We have two vehicles: A Ford made in Michigan (all major components made in the US) and a Chevy made in Canada (all US components). It's getting harder and harder to find vehicles that are both made by a US company and assembled in the USA. We actually didn't realize our Chevy was Canadian when we bought it, since it's origin was listed as US/Canadian.

I grew up in Western Pennsylvania and saw first hand the effects of outsourcing and the global economy. A lot of towns that were great places 20 or 30 years ago are nothing but nearly abandoned Crack-towns.

As long as the US still has some industry remaining, I'll go out of my way to buy what they produce.

General Motors has treated it customers like crap for years. One reason I have never bought their products. Listen to the horror stories from anyone who bought one of their fake diesels thrown together back in the 80s. It was GM's effort to destroy any demand for diesel automobiles. I'm surprise they did not do the same with their turbine car; with it, they had the decency to simply not bring it to market. For years management gave themselves large raises; to keep the union quiet, they gave them contracts they could not afford.
Careful, liars are everywhere. Lee Iacocca wants you to buy his product, but it Japanese parts assembled in Windor. If you want an American car, buy a Honda built in Ohio. It has more American content than any "American" car.

Long, LONG overdue.

Striking because you want job security?

You don't like your job, your benefits, etc. GET A NEW FUCKING JOB! Unions ruining the car industry....

Took me 15 years, and about 4-5 jobs to figure out what I wanted to do....

why did I not stay at certain jobs? Cause I didn't like how I was treated, how I was paid, etc.....

If these people are so miserable, and get treated unfairly....why do they strike to keep the job they hate?

What a scam....Idiots.

Likely as not the strike will be extended and the benefits gained pale in comparision to wages lost. In the meantime company's profits will decline and layoffs will be the inevitable result.

Let's cut off our nose to spite our face.

LILBRIT,

Hey, sorry I missed your post which specifically addressed another poster and I last night...

For the record,

"Hope all the union workers are happy when GM shuts the plants and ships the whole kit and kaboodle to China." Posted by Lilbrit

I responded with...

When does one lose sight that these people are not just 'union workers'? These people are Americans.
These people are Americans who are faced with the same cold reality as all other Americans, whether belonging to the UAW or not...Given the opportunity Corporate America has proven time and time again that they would take an ant farm overseas just to increase their profit margins and will not so much as take their next breath before forgetting about the American worker they left behind. Posted by MsChris at 2007-09-24 03:32 PM

*Ma'am, this is the only time that I directly addressed and/or quoted one of YOUR posts.


As for your last comment...

"But of course you conveniently developed a form of point blindness when it came to that comment and immediately used "what about the CEOs?" to attack my premise. This wealth envy thing is a nasty disease, I hope its not contagious." Posted by Lilbrit


Frankly, I found your initial comment about the "union workers" quite repulsive and uneducated. However, I did not launch any type of attack on your premise. Tis' your premise. I interjected my premise on CEO's...Tis my premise.

However, at this point, the whole "Its the union worker's fault thing" does deserve an honorable mention as a very nasty disease. One of which, I now think, you should seek some type of intervention for because this disease seems to have already consumed you.


-MsChris

I worked under union contract. As part of the agreement, the company hired outside labor on weekends, and payed a standard union wage for two-twelve hour shifts (part time) to college students. However, the new workers had to pay union dues, even though not full time employees (extortion).

So it was fine for you to accept the union wages that previous employees fought for but for you to have to contribute to the union that forced the company to pay such high wages is extortion.

Why am I not surprised at that from Tadowe???

TAdowe....what we used to call a ""one way S.O.B.""

So it was fine for you to accept the union wages that previous employees fought for but for you to have to contribute to the union that forced the company to pay such high wages is extortion.

Nothing in the union forced the company to pay. The company signed an agreement to pay those wages.

Just like TAdowe decided to accept the job, paid premium wages and owed union dues. And imagine, that union job help pay his way through school just so he can now bite his hand to spit his face!

If these people are so miserable, and get treated unfairly....why do they strike to keep the job they hate?
Because they cannot stand on their individual skills or value they bring to the company. They cannot find a comparable wage in the free market place. A person with 20 years on the line can be replaced by someone off the street with a couple of weeks of training.

General Motors can not maintain the vast number of retirees that it has. In the end those benefits will be dumped on the federal government who will pay 20% of what GM pays. Say good-bye to your viagra.

"General Motors can not maintain the vast number of retirees that it has. In the end those benefits will be dumped on the federal government who will pay 20% of what GM pays. Say good-bye to your viagra."

While I am not anti-union, it is tough for feel sorry for the strikers. After all, what the UAW has been doing for the past couple of decades is engaging in price-fixing as a means of driving wages far above market rate. I don't have more problem with that than I do with a business engaging in price-fixing. they just need to understand that it provides massive incentives for competitors. In this case, there are enormous reserves of quality labor offshore that could be bought for far cheaper. Just like we as consumers would not be willing to pay more for no increase in quality, niether are the auto makers. If we were, they wouldn't have a problem. Consumer society would be willing to pay $40k for a ford Taurus or $80k for a Tahoe, since providing for fellow americans would be part of the satisfaction realized during the purchasing process. That's not the case.

Does anyone remember Mike Moore's first movie, Roger and Me, where he attempts to track down former GM CEO Roger Smith. For those that are unfamiliar with the movie, it attempts to villainize GM for laying off thousands of union workers tha had been earning very high union wages; up to $30 and hour (1988) in many cases. To put it in perspective, that would be the equivalent of over $100,000 a year today. That's a lot of money for unskilled labor, and once they had been laid off, and were forced to compete in a free market, most were fighting for jobs at McDonalds, because that's all they were qualified for!

If GM was at fault in anyway, it was for letting these nidividuals think that that their labor value was far higher than it actually was. Of course they didn't have much choice because the UAW prevented them from hiring at market wage rate. If these GM workers had truly understood how low thier labor value actually was, how many would have gone to college or acquired some other skill that employers would willingly pay for, instead of taking the easiest road by accepting a high paying position as an unskilled laborer?

It has already been suggested that GM might flirt with bankruptcy this go-round, but they will survive. That won't be the case if the UAW continues to demand wages that the company can't pay. It's first priority is solvency, and that means getting costs under control. It won't doing anyone any good, least of all the UAW, if GM goes under.

"Clearly, well at least this makes sense to me, if GM were truely "tits up" someone, somewhere along the lines would suggest that GM revert back to 1965, when the average CEO was only pulling in 20x more than the average worker. Did you hear me? Just 20x more..."

Screw it. If your looking to cut costs, why not just hand it off to some random floor worker? After all, it talent and ability aren't important, couldn't anyone do it?

Think of it this way, GM is sick, possibly dying. The best and only course of action is to find the person that can fix the company, regardless of cost. After all, would you do comparison shopping if you were looking for the best brain surgeon? Probably not. If it cost 1000 times the salary of the average worker, it would still be worth it, if it keeps the company alfoat. CEO's earn high wages because the sahreholders feel they are worth it, and willingly pay. Unlike the unskilled sector of the GM labor force, management doesn't need to rely on price fixing to get high wages. They rely on thier own valuable skillsets, and that's enough.

"The difference here is GM wants the employees to continue making the sacrifice so GM can continue to gain in the profits."

GM has no profits! That's the problem. In fact, they can't even cover costs! In the last two years, GM has posted losses of over 12.5 billion dollars, and I suspect that this year it will be even worse. Now, I suspect you neither know or care what it takes to run a business, but a good rule of thumb is that revenues must exceed costs.

When a company is faced with a situation where costs exceed revenues, it is imperative that they reduce costs. We already know that US auto workers enjoy a $25 per labor hour premium over foreign workers, and it is this premium that must be reudced. Keep in mind, all other intermediate goods and raw materials are purchased at market rate. There is no organization out there driving up the price of leather or steel. Labor is the only factor that enjoys that kind of support.

Consumers simply aren't willing to pay more for a vehicle just because the manufacturer was forced to pay union wages. That means that manufacturers need to keep prices reasonable in order to appeal to customers.

I currently drive a very sweet 2003 Yukon Denali with the 6.0 liter engine. As much as I like it, I am going to spend the afternoon looking at 2007 Tahoes and Acura MDXs. If reducing wage rate on unskilled auto labor from union to market rate could reduce my cost, you bet I'd support it. There would be a lot more incentive for me to buy a new Tahoe if it were $40k instead of $50k, and my decision ot buy would be a lot less difficult. To earn my relatively high wages, I went to college, got a master's degree, etc. I actually did some self-investment. It's tough for me to sympathise with those that are unwilling to do the same.

"You don't sell something you lose money on and the fact you don't understand this would make you a questionable management asset for any company."

Yes you do.

As any freshman business major knows, a firm will continue to operate so long as variable costs are covered, even when fixed costs are not. Of course this can not continue indefinitely, and during that time the firm will be eating through it's reserves or be realiant on outside financing.

If GM were to cease operations when variable costs were being covered, they would lose even more money, because they wouldn't be generating any revenues, but still have fixed costs to cover. Thatw ould put them even further in the hole.

Now, I suspect you neither know or care what it takes to run a business, but a good rule of thumb is that revenues must exceed costs.

Wow, and this quote from me on the very next post of yours which you try and trounce on to boot:

You don't sell something you lose money on and the fact you don't understand this would make you a questionable management asset for any company

A good rule of thumb is to plan better ahead! Oh! The arrogance of your education is clearly shown, it to be even Bush like, but even your smarts wouldn't make it on the production line this much is clear.

"That's not what I was saying, but I can see how you construed it as such given how I worded it - I jumped from unskilled labor to cutting costs creating a false impression that ALL supplanted jobs are unskilled, which we agree isn't the case. My broader point still stands - 'Outsourcing' is considered bad, yet aren't companies supposed to reduce operating costs?"

Ever read "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman? In it he documents some of the professional jobs that have been outsourced, and while it is skilled labor requiring a college degree or better, it is backroom work that was previously handled as an additional duty by american workers. By outsourcing backroom accounting or engineering work, US companies are better able to focus on core competencies. Furthermore, the people that benefitted from these outsourced jobs, mostly in India, recieve huge paychecks, equal to about $80k a year in the US. There is enormous demand for these jobs.

As for unskilled labor vs. Skilled labor: If it can't be easily duplicated in a short amount ot time, it is unskilled labor. If it doesn't require a building block approach, it is unskilled labor. I may not know how to work a lathe or drive a backhoe, but I suspect I could learn it in a very short period of time. I fly bombers for the Air Force. The prerequisite was four yeard of college, plus 2.5 years of flight training, plus continuing OJT. To me, that's skilled labor. Doctors and accountants and lawyers are skilled labor. Yet even as a skilled laborer, I fully retain my qualification as an unskilled laborer. That's why wages for unskilled labor are so cheap. Anyone can do it.

"A good rule of thumb is to plan better ahead! Oh! The arrogance of your education is clearly shown, it to be even Bush like, but even your smarts wouldn't make it on the production line this much is clear."

The lack of education on your part is equally apparent. Of course, being the kind heart that I am, I'm always willing to help bring light to those that haven't already seen it.

If you want to get into a discussion about forecasting, I'm game. It's actually one of my favorite subjects, and something I'd like to puruse once I get bored bombing the godless heathen commies of the planet. Fair warning though, it's kind of a skill...it requires a pretty solid background in statistics and calculus. Not something your average factory floor worker could grasp without a few years of college.

"Well, most have not. Microsoft does a great job of paying well above the standard..."

Microsft has profit margins of nearly 40%. They can afford to pay "above average"...way above average.

When does one lose sight that these people are not just 'union workers'? These people are Americans.
These people are Americans who are faced with the same cold reality as all other Americans, whether belonging to the UAW or not...
Given the opportunity Corporate America has proven time and time again that they would take an ant farm overseas just to increase their profit margins and will not so much as take their next breath before forgetting about the American worker they left behind.

>>>Globalists do not care for ANY country, as they have proven time after time.

Every trade policy that harms the American worker should be repealed at once, and manufacturing brought back to the US.

Nice to meet you MadBomber, Be carefull, that vehicle your in was probably made by me and I can surely tell you that if you're a desk jocky, you would have a difficult time on the floor.

As far as computing numbers, everyone on the floor building that fair piece of flying machine deals in thousandths even on every single hole.

For every worker on the floor it takes 3 to 5 of you office grunts to keep the forecast going but I wouldn't know about such things.

Notice how GM couldn't manage to make a deal after weeks of negotiation but 2 days into a strike and they make a deal. Those negotiating managers much be great at their job!

These GM workers are "Americans," who want more money from "Other Americans" so that they can maintain their own standard of living at the expense of the "Other Americans."

Got it.

The negotiating managers got rid of the monkey of health care for workers and retirees, since the health care trust fund was transferred to the Union for adminstration.

I don't know how binding the contractual agreements governing the pension funds are, but the GM pensioners are receiving pensions based on extortionate union practices rather than what was the going rate for semi-skilled laborers, which is what the majority of the GM assemblers were and are. And these exorbitant pensions now burden the company. The wage costs (and pension costs if vulenrable) need to be lowered, or the goose that lays the golden egg will no longer be able to provide any benefits as it will cease to exist.

In the face of competition, there is no way that these wages can continue to be paid and the companies survive. When there was no competition, the wages could be predicated on anticipated profits, but now the expected profits are greatly reduced, and the cost of a vehicle must make it viable for sale in the marketplace.

Again. Remember the passenger pigeon. Remember the steel workers.

Danni says, "So it was fine for you to accept the union wages that previous employees fought for but for you to have to contribute to the union that forced the company to pay such high wages is extortion."

Well, as I mentioned, we were part time employees, and weren't entitled to vote, and were hired as 'management trainees', in order to satisfy union rules about 'scab' managers doing labor's job. However, we still had to fork over union dues ... an extortion.

Why am I not surprised at that from Tadowe???
TAdowe....what we used to call a ""one way S.O.B.""

When the union foreman handed me the second humongous check in a row for over production, I told him I would wait for the him and the boys in the parking lot ... the foreman didn't even try to leave the main building until I left 20 minutes later ...

Mike says, "Just like TAdowe decided to accept the job, paid premium wages and owed union dues. And imagine, that union job help pay his way through school just so he can now bite his hand to spit his face!"

I worked there for two months. The first paycheck of the last month was the first bonus check for over production. The next check for overproduction, I had quit -- I didn't want to be associated with that union, even on the side of management!

I wasn't given the status of full time, and couldn't vote for union officers or contracts! Still, the union demanded I pay dues for full time because I was a scab ... Indeed! My pay was less than the standard full time employee union rate!

When the union foreman handed me the second humongous check in a row for over production, I told him I would wait for the him and the boys in the parking lot ... the foreman didn't even try to leave the main building until I left 20 minutes later ...

Here's where Tadowe accuses Ted of being slow and stupid, but what are you trying to say above?
Were you going to have beer with them? Were you going to kick their asses?

I kinda hope it's the latter. The thought of the foreman and boys quivering in fear while Tadowe waits for them is just too seinfeldian.