What's this got to do with Rudy's marriage to his second cousin?

About as much as his Vietnam War draft deferment. At least he's trying to carry on the tradition of those who advocate for war so long as somone else fights it.

Regards,
etc.

Rudy's gun control problem?

Spud always thought that was code talk fer his struggles with premature ejaculation.

Sommat else besides? Wot?

He actually did sommat to piss off the NRA?

And now he's in their sights?

Pull!

The Gun nuts and the God nuts will hafta hold their noses in order to vote fer Rudy thinks Spud.

Be Well.

Poor ole Rudy all in a pickle
For being such an ass and very fickle.
Will He cry will he find defeat
I can't wait so save Me a seat.
Rudy is going down for there's no doubt
He lacks courage and conviction hell He ain't even stout.
Poor ole Rudy it's time to say Good Night
Can someone please turn off the light.

Larry

North: Why haven't you made another tedious reference to cross dressing?

Flip flop. Republicans remind me of just caught fish flopping all over the boat before they start to stink.

Why haven't you made another tedious reference to cross dressing?

Posted by vernon


Vernon, you do not have to wear your sexuality on your sleeve, so to speak, but it's not necessary to get bitchy abou tit, either. Looosen up. You're not some silly twink, after all. Be all that you can be, Vernon! Hoist it high, high, high! Fly that Rainbow Flag---red, orange, yellow, green, cyan, blue and vilet---with pride!

God bless.

Rudy's face reminds me of a corpse. Particularly around his mouth. He is just very freeky looking.

I'm not voting for another pandering turd. I'm so sick of the US being held hostage by the NRA.

And already this morning another NRA love-in is being reported on one of our college campus. Let's start issuing our incoming freshmen body armor.

March notices, "Rudy's face reminds me of a corpse. Particularly around his mouth. He is just very freeky looking."

Yeah, yeah, and how about Kucinich, eh? Looks like a little rat, doesn't he? And, Hillary looks like some fat German hofbrauhaus frau. Obama looks pretty white, doesn't he? And, those ears!

I loved Priscilla, I wish I could see the musical.

Tad can get you tickets. He's in the chorus line after all.

I know it has been said already, but there is a reason people are targeted at schools. The reason is no one other than law enforcement and criminals have the weapons.

Should the incoming freshmen be issued body armor? Should the campus be set up like other government buildings or complexes where everyone must go through security before entering the student area? Should everyone who has a concealed carry permit be allowed to carry a gun? Maybe all colleges should be via the Internet with live lectures and online testing. That way they wouldn't have the risk of being shot, stabbed, hit by a car, slipping on wet pavement, dying from drinking at a frat party, being rapped going back to their dorm, becoming a victim of a hate crime, and so on.

The right to defend your family and life is GOD given , the right to defend ourselves from a treasonous sellout government is U.S.Constitution given . The fact that the left has total disregard for the law , especially when it comes to civil rights for whites . Case in point Channon Christian/ Christopher Newsom versus Megan Williams , the black KKK ( sharpton , jackson ) squelch the reporting of black on white crime no matter how heinous ,versus white on black crime .
Time for you assclowns on the left to tell the truth , and time to level the playing fielf , you worthless hypocrits .

Going down to Jena, LA later, Rightnut?

They need sorting.

""black KKK ( sharpton , jackson )""

Oh please. Anything even remotely true that you were trying to say was completely overshadowed by the stupidity and vitriole of that comment.
Get real.
The white kids in Jenna weren't exactly little angels. Nooses anyone???
Pull a gun on your attackers??? What do you expect???

"The right to defend your family and life is GOD given"

NO!

-Buffalo Bob

The right to make up shit other people say is GOD given.

YES

-Loonytarian-

Charlton Heston ? Is he still up and about... I'd a guessed that he was pretty far gone with Alzheimer's ?

"The right to defend your family and life is GOD given"

An interesting play on words... i.e if you believe in a nice little WHITE, NRA DEITY !

I have a good friend (in spite of his Republicanism)
The other day I mentioned that I'd heard there were 140 million hand guns in the US... and he replied "that's not enough".

It is such a hilarious ditty about protecting the home/car/whatever and yer womenfolk with a GUN!

Like what are the odds of a bad person and a pious little gun owner converging on the same scene?

That is, opposed to a pissed off wife, playful little kid, etc, etc, killing your dumb ass with that handgun ?

1-1,000 1-10,000 ho ho ho !

That is, opposed to a pissed off wife, playful little kid, etc, etc, killing your dumb ass with that handgun ?

1-1,000 1-10,000 ho ho ho !

Posted by YoMeLIB at 2007-09-21 01:24 PM | Reply


You libs are pathetic, You will bitch all day long about the how bush is destroying the constitution yet you sit here in this thread and call all of us gun loving people loons... The same constitution that you claim bush is destroying is the same one you are spitting on by all the rhetoric of taking guns away.

Hypocrites...

Armyof1

The right to bear arms refers to well-regulated militia formed to prtotect the STATE. There is no right for individuals to bear arms in the Constitution.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."



WELL REGULATED


That doesn't mean a bunch of whackos thinking they have the right to have all the weapons they want.


NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE.


That means the only reason thios sentence exists is to protect the SECURITY OF A FREE STATE.


Of course you Constitutiopn haters see what you want to see.

The NRA is the criminals best friend. The NRA makes sure criminals get all the weapons they need.

Bob, you are wrong again. Criminals, hence the name, will get their weapons anyway possible. Just like druggies get drugs.
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

There is no right for individuals to bear arms in the Constitution. Read that again Bob. Isn't it call the Bill of Rights. For whom are these rights for, the people?

The NRA is the criminals best friend. The NRA makes sure criminals get all the weapons they need.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2007-09-21 01:51 PM | Reply

Thats the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard...

THE NRA supports gun owner rights and preaches the safe use of firearms.

There are laws that are meant to stop criminals from owning guns. they get them through back alley crooked dealers. but i bet thats the gun makers fault right. Not the punks that are doing it.

AGAIN I SAY HYPOCRITES!!!!!

SULLY what a BULLSHIT response. As i said there are laws in place to ensure that felons don't and can't purchase firearms legally. The fact that there are punks selling them in the bak ally or crooked dealers selling them out the back door is not the NRA's fault.

Your logic is completely ignorant...

"THE NRA supports gun owner rights and preaches the safe use of firearms"

For criminals also.

GO NRA--the criminals best friend---when the terrorists do make it over here, they won't have any trouble finding something to shoot you with.

Bob, you are wrong again. Criminals, hence the name, will get their weapons anyway possible. Just like druggies get drugs.
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

They won't get their weapons if there are no weapons to get.





"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Don't take things out of context. It makes you a liar.

Bob you are so full of crap Ill bet your eyes are brown.

Unless you can provide cold hard proof that the NRA is all for criminals rights to guns then STFU!!!!

They do not advocate that. its amazing. Its ok to trample on the 2nd amendment but the 1st and 4th is sacred to lefties.

HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!

Armyof1

You make a mockery of the 2nd amendment and your anti Constitutional ways are anti American. If you don't like the Constitution of the United States of America---find a country more to your liking. I hear Iran supports gun rights for criminals also.

The Good Ol' USA of A does not---except of course the NRA anti-Americans among us.

"SULLY what a BULLSHIT response. As i said there are laws in place to ensure that felons don't and can't purchase firearms legally. The fact that there are punks selling them in the bak ally or crooked dealers selling them out the back door is not the NRA's fault.

Your logic is completely ignorant..."

No, moron, you are making a senseless point that contradicts nothing I said.

Whether or not we have such legislation in place doesn't speak one way or another as to whether certain NRA members deserve to be called loons or not. The article clearly states that such legistlation is in place.

I call certain people nuts because while such sensible precautions were being put in place, they jumped up and down and screeched "This is only the first step before the guvment takes all our guns!". See, that they lost the debate and the laws passed despite them doesn't make them any more sane.

I call certain people gun nuts because they think the ATF "had no right" to enforce federal firearm laws in Waco. They think the crazies who blew up the FBI building in OK City were justified.

That the law disagrees with these lunatics doesn't make them sane. Your arguement is idiotic.

When old Charlie Heston's Alzheimer's kicks in do you think he'll give up his guns? His fingers won't be cold or dead at that point.

When old Charlie Heston's Alzheimer's kicks in do you think he'll give up his guns? His fingers won't be cold or dead at that point.

what the?

Bob, is liar your all time favorite word. The Bill of Rights are rights guaranteed by the gov't for the PEOPLE, not the states. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." People would be me and you and anyone else. I took nothing out of context, you did. Once again, the context is the Bill of Rights. These are individual rights, granted by the gov't.

Oh and Bob, if you get rid of all the guns in the USA, don't you think that the criminals would be able to import them, illegally, from other countries. I guess you want the criminals to have the upper hand and the law abiding citizens to defenseless. Bob, you are pro criminal, not the NRA. Wake up Bob. I have the right to defend myself.

I'm not in the NRA, but the first federal firearms act came after thousand of WWI vets camped out in Wash DC in protest.

The cowardly pigs running the government were afraid of revolution so they banned full auto firearms, and sawed off shotguns.

I don't like the law, but then having fired an M-60 I can tell you that full auto is spray and pray.

People should be more careful with firearms. Mine is locked in a titanium alloy case with a combination lock. Still there are those who will whine and accuse and spew all sorts of bullshit just because I have it.

Fuck 'em.

And fuck the Clintons and all the rest of the anti-gun crowd. They do more damage to this country with the laws they pass, and the judges they appoint.

We need to get back to the letter of the law. Read: The Constitution and Bill of Rights. The rest of it is a combination of cowardice and special interest favors. Just walk into a law library and ask where they keep the US Code. Then find the Code of Federal Regulations. Usually together, they take up a couple hundred foot of shelf space.

But ignorance of the law is no defense.

"Bob, is liar your all time favorite word."

When people lie---yes.



The Bill of Rights are rights guaranteed by the gov't for the PEOPLE, not the states."

That is not what the sentence says---it is only what YOU say it say. The sentence is quite clear---the PEOPLE are only permitted weapons to protect a free state.


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Why are the PEOPLE allowed to keep and bear arms?---To protest the state. It also says WELL-REGULATED. That means CONTROLLED. Understand that part of the English language? Allowing any bozo off the street to have their own tank is not WELL-REGULATED. Again, when you take things out of context, it makes you a LIAR. If you don't like the word---don't LIE.


"People would be me and you and anyone else."

You forgot the WELL-REGULATED part. Taking things out of context still makes you a LIAR.


"I took nothing out of context, you did."

Yes you did take things out of context---you ignored the reason the people were given the right to keep and bear arms---which was to protect the SECURITY OF A FREE STATE, and that they should be WELL-REGULATED.

"Once again, the context is the Bill of Rights. These are individual rights, granted by the gov't."

This particular right says you can keep and bear arms if you are WELL-REGULATED and keep your arms to protect the SECURITY OF A FREE STATE. Other than that, it does not grant the right to anyone who isn't part of a well-regulated militia.

security of a free state--if we are invaded and I have a gun and all my neighbors do as well, would we not be able to help the security of a free state?

WELL-REGULATED--background checks and sold and recorded by stores.

There you go Bob, I think that should answer any of your questions.

I won't call you a liar, but misinformed:)

Rudy would surely reverse his field again if he did happen to win the nomination. GOPers today must say one thing to get nominated, another to get elected.

And folks here seem to be ahead of me in pointing out that the Second Amendment has long been interpreted as having nothing to do with private gun ownership. It allows state militias.

Amazing what righties try to push in their own defense these days. herm

Phin Phan

"Oh and Bob, if you get rid of all the guns in the USA, don't you think that the criminals would be able to import them, illegally,from other countries."

Nope--simple scanning should take care of that. Also if criminals get guns---they get the guns taken away and their asses tossed in jail--no problem.


"I guess you want the criminals to have the upper hand and the law abiding citizens to defenseless."

Criminals have the upperhand anyway. Your gun is no defense. Guns are offensive weapons only. A gun is probably the worst and most inneffective method of self defense on the planet. The people who think a gun will help them defend themselves just haven't thought things thorough. There is only ONE scenario where a gun might help you. That is if a criminal is so stupid as to brak into your house when you are there and he gives you enough time to find and load your weapon. Other than that your gun is a useless tool, and even in the situation I just mentioned---there are much better ways of protecting yourself.

"Bob, you are pro criminal, not the NRA. Wake up Bob. I have the right to defend myself."

The NRA is responsible for every gun in every criminals hands. The NRA is responsible for every crime committed with a gun.

Of course you have the right to defend yourself. But other than the scenario I just mentioned, a gun is useless for self defense, and the scenario I just mentioned is a rare occurance.

"Oh and Bob, if you get rid of all the guns in the USA, don't you think that the criminals would be able to import them, illegally,from other countries."

Nope--simple scanning should take care of that. Also if criminals get guns---they get the guns taken away and their asses tossed in jail--no problem. Bob, you can't be serious. I guess nothing illegal ever comes in to this country.

"security of a free state--if we are invaded and I have a gun and all my neighbors do as well, would we not be able to help the security of a free state?"

Yeah----I can see you out there with your 45 against a tank or aircraft.



"WELL-REGULATED--background checks and sold and recorded by stores."

The NRA has consistently opposed such checks---they are not well-regulated, and the sentence refers to the MILITIA as being well regulated, not the guns.

Read the sentence. Comprehend the sentence. BE the sentence.

"There you go Bob, I think that should answer any of your questions."

I didn't ask any questions.


"I won't call you a liar, but misinformed:)"

I didn't lie. You are still taking things out of context. Try again if you like,

The NRA has consistently opposed such checks---they are not well-regulated, and the sentence refers to the MILITIA as being well regulated, not the guns. The NRA doesn't give me the right own a gun. Well regulated is the gov't job, not mine.

Bob, you can't be serious. I guess nothing illegal ever comes in to this country.

Posted by phinphan at 2007-09-21 03:56 PM


Sure some would still get guns---make the punishment life in prison for having a gun. See how many think owning a gun is worth the price. It would be better than the situation we have now. Gun are no good for self defense as has already beed stated. What scenario do you see your gun protecting you?

"Well regulated is the gov't job, not mine."

Posted by phinphan at 2007-09-21 04:00 PM | Reply

The government has done its job of well-regulating well. It is called the STATE NATIONAL GUARD. That is what the second amendment referred to. A state guard to protect the state from the federal government---it doesn't refer to your little 45.

Gun are no good for self defense as has already beed stated.

Actually, guns are great for self-defense.

Which kinda fucks up the entire premise of this exhibition of sheer fucking stupidity you're providing for us.

I will admit, though----its entertaining.

The "militia" is the people, Bob.

Read the fucking sentence.

There is only ONE scenario where a gun might help you.

LOL.

I can't believe I'm reading this. ;)

Pinche Mao

"Actually, guns are great for self-defense."

How about a few for instances? Show me where the presence of guns was a benefit to self defense?



"Which kinda fucks up the entire premise of this exhibition of sheer fucking stupidity you're providing for us."

How about providing some of your brilliance to show how poor my logic is?

"I will admit, though----its entertaining."

Your turn--entertain me. Show me how a gun can protect you.

James Madison wrote the Second Amendment.

"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained in arms, is the best most natural defense of a free country."
-James Madison

Bring back the draft.

The "militia" is the people, Bob.

Read the fucking sentence.

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2007-09-21 04:08 PM


The MILITIA is well regulated. Do you think the people should be WELL-REGULATED?

Read the fucking sentence.

Show me how a gun can protect you.

By firing a high velocity projectile at at person or thing that intends to do you harm.

The MILITIA is well regulated

The militia is the people, Bob.

There is only ONE scenario where a gun might help you.

LOL.

I can't believe I'm reading this. ;)

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2007-09-21 04:10 PM


I can't believe you can't come up with another scenario after saying that. Let's hear it.

"Show me how a gun can protect you.

By firing a high velocity projectile at at person or thing that intends to do you harm."


Or the threat of said projectile.

How about providing some of your brilliance to show how poor my logic is?

You're not using "logic", Bob.

The MILITIA is well regulated

The militia is the people, Bob.

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2007-09-21 04:15 PM


Answer the question






Do you think the PEOPLE should be well-regulated?

How about providing some of your brilliance to show how poor my logic is?

You're not using "logic", Bob.

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2007-09-21 04:16 PM


and you aren't using anything. Where are those defense scenarios?

I can't believe you can't come up with another scenario after saying that

A "scenario"?

A threat to my life and/or property presents itself.

Said threat is eliminated with a firearm.

I can't simplify it much more than that.

Show me how a gun can protect you.

By firing a high velocity projectile at at person or thing that intends to do you harm."


Or the threat of said projectile.

Posted by salamandagator at 2007-09-21 04:16 PM


Very good---let's hear how this situation arises.

Where are those defense scenarios?

Making up hypotheticals isn't "logic", Bob.

Very good---let's hear how this situation arises.

That's what screenwriters do, Bob.

I hope your just pretending to be this obtuse and stupid.

"There is only ONE scenario where a gun might help you. That is if a criminal is so stupid as to brak into your house when you are there and he gives you enough time to find and load your weapon. Other than that your gun is a useless tool, and even in the situation I just mentioned---there are much better ways of protecting yourself."

What about the old lady who was attacked by two pitbulls owned by some idiot neighbor and stopped them from ripping her throat out by firing a shot at them?

What about thousands of real life examples to the contrary?

Pinche

I would think that those who think guns will protect them have some kind of idea how they will defende themselves and against what threat they are trying to defend themselves. If you have no scenario where you think a gun will protect you---you have no point in this discussion.

Very good---let's hear how this situation arises.

It arises when someone or something presents itself as an immediate threat to my life and/or property.

I employ this thing called a "gun", which allows me to fire a high velocity projectile what threatens me.

What about the old lady who was attacked by two pitbulls owned by some idiot neighbor and stopped them from ripping her throat out by firing a shot at them?

What about thousands of real life examples to the contrary?



Posted by Sully at 2007-09-21 04:23 PM | Reply |


The guy who shot the gun didn't use it in self defense. Could he have gotten to the gun if the pit bulls had attacked him?

Could he have gotten the pit bulls off the woman with a club, chair? lamp? bottle?

Could he have shot the woman accidently or a neighbor with the ricochet?

The gun came in handy, but there were other safer alternatives.

But we are looking for self defense.

I would think that those who think guns will protect them have some kind of idea how they will defende themselves and against what threat they are trying to defend themselves

Well.....

Good point.

Let me take a stab at it.

I would defend my self by aiming the barrel of the firearm towards whatever entity was threatening me. Then I would pull the trigger, which, in turn, would result in firing the projectile from the firearm and into the threat.

It arises when someone or something presents itself as an immediate threat to my life and/or property.

I employ this thing called a "gun", which allows me to fire a high velocity projectile what threatens me.

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2007-09-21 04:26 PM | Reply | Flag


How do you get to your gun?

Yes.

Never use a .38 to stop a pit bull attack when a good lamp is handy.

Good point, Bob.

How do you get to your gun?

That depends on where my gun is, Bob.

Never use a .38 to stop a pit bull attack when a good lamp is handy.

Let's see a lamp vs a pit bull.

LOL

it's your funeral.

Pinche Mao

Your gun is not an effective self defense deterrent---even you can't come up with a scenario other than what I've posted that shows your gun would be a plus.

I would defend my self by aiming the barrel of the firearm towards whatever entity was threatening me. Then I would pull the trigger, which, in turn, would result in firing the projectile from the firearm and into the threat.

I love that. Good one, Pinche. Clear, concise, accurate.

I'm not voting for another pandering turd. I'm so sick of the US being held hostage by the NRA.

And already this morning another NRA love-in is being reported on one of our college campus. Let's start issuing our incoming freshmen body armor.
Please cite examples of the NRA hold anyone hostage? You do realize that it is a organization of over 4 million people right? So are you saying that 4 million people are holding the US hostage? That is a very uninformed opinion, and you are entitled to it. The NRA is the oldest civil rights organization in the country, and so far has done a pretty good job keeping the politicians hands of your right to self defense and the tools need to do it. I bet you wish for a gun free society, well sorry to break the news to you, if you were to take all the guns from all the law abiding citizens do you think that you will reduce gun deaths in this country? Do you really think that it will be a safer place to live and raise your children? If so, go look at Australia and England as examples of what exactly happens when you dis-arm the people, violent crime goes up and more people get killed. Also look at the governments in the last century alone that has dis-armed their populations, mass genocide. When governments do not fear the people very bad things happen. The 2nd Amendment was put into the bill of rights for that very reason; it is a doomsday provision that protects all other rights from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC. But go ahead and piss on it, you might very well regret it in the future.

As far as Rudy, I don't trust that guy one bit. All you have to do is look at his record as mayor of NYC. Almost every time gun control came up he was one of the first to support it, he is no better than the others that constantly vote to abolish the right to bear arms, like Klinton, Schumer, Kennedy, Edwards, Kerry, McCarthy and the list goes on. Any politician who cant trust me with a gun cant be trusted to protect me, since who will protect me from them. Be extremely careful for what you wish for you may get it and you might not like the outcome.

Pinche Mao

Let's see. You are walking to your car after work or you are at the mall. Someone pulls a gun and tells you to give them your wallet. What will you do, what WILL you do.

How about you answer your front door and some guy pulls a gun and tells you to get on your knees. What will you do, what WILL you do.

Thanks to the NRA, your attacker has a gun. What do you have?

I would defend my self by aiming the barrel of the firearm towards whatever entity was threatening me. Then I would pull the trigger, which, in turn, would result in firing the projectile from the firearm and into the threat.

I love that. Good one, Pinche. Clear, concise, accurate.

Posted by Alexandrite at 2007-09-21 04:38 PM | Reply


How do you get your gun, and when did you get it?

"I would defend my self by aiming the barrel of the firearm towards whatever entity was threatening me. Then I would pull the trigger, which, in turn, would result in firing the projectile from the firearm and into the threat."

But what would that accomplish? So a high velocity projectile enters this threat, then what happens? Am I missing something here or are you not making any sense at all? Now you're just being attacked by something that contains a high velocity projectile!

Sincerly,

Buffalo Bob

Your gun is not an effective self defense deterrent

I can't speak for Pinche, but mine is an effective deterrent, Bob

FF Pinche on last retort

There is no right for individuals to bear arms in the Constitution.

Lucky for me the courts disagree with you Bob. Where'd you get your constitutional law degree, anyway?

Your gun is not an effective self defense deterrent--

Oh, I can assure you my gun is a very effective deterrent.

In fact, not a single person who knows I have a gun as ever threatened my life or property.

That's about as close as you can get to a 100% rate, Bob.

The guy who shot the gun didn't use it in self defense. Could he have gotten to the gun if the pit bulls had attacked him?

Could he have gotten the pit bulls off the woman with a club, chair? lamp? bottle?

Could he have shot the woman accidently or a neighbor with the ricochet?

The gun came in handy, but there were other safer alternatives.

But we are looking for self defense.

I could get mine, since it is on my person at all times. How bout this for all the people who dont like guns or feel that "THEY" should not own guns. Thats fine, but dont come for mine. Im not going to say from my cold dead hands, but you know what i am thinking. Please come for them, i would be more than happy to show anyone the defensive uses uses for them, and when I am out of ammo i'll club you with them :).

Bob- Just because you can find situations where someone gets the drop on you, and the gun doesn't come into play...

Does not mean guns are ineffective for self defense the majority of the time.

How do you get your gun

That depends on where your gun is, Bob.

The NRA is the criminals best friend. The NRA makes sure criminals get all the weapons they need.

News flash, Bob. Criminals get whatever they want with or without the NRA.

Alexandrite

I have been asking for scenatios where a gun would come in handy. No one seems to have anything to offer, so I gave some scenarios myself. Let's hear yours.

It makes you a liar.

Bob, in your eyes, everyone is a liar. There's not a thread goes by that you respond to that you don't use that word at least ten times.

Per Mr. Mao: "In fact, not a single person who knows I have a gun as ever threatened my life or property.
That's about as close as you can get to a 100% rate, Bob."

I have never owned a gun nor fired a gun in my life. I am middle middle class (- no gated community, no exclusive neighborhood, no expensive alarm systems, etc.). Not a single person has ever threatened my life or my property. That's a 100%. Possession, or lack of possession of guns have nothing to do with it.

Not that it will happen in my lifetime, but I wonder what the impact would be on life in the United States if ALL gun ownership were prohibited except by the military and the police. Would the number of crime related homicides increase or decrease?

Pinche

"I would defend my self by aiming the barrel of the firearm towards whatever entity was threatening me. Then I would pull the trigger, which, in turn, would result in firing the projectile from the firearm and into the threat."

How do you get your gun

"That depends on where your gun is, Bob."


Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2007-09-21 04:50 PM | Reply



It was your fantasy. How do you get your gun---what was the threat? Let's hear it. Spit it out. You know you have a point. Make it.

What was the threat---how did you get your gun.

Your turn--entertain me. Show me how a gun can protect you.

Break into my house tonight, Bob, and I'll show you how. Hell, you don't even have to break in. For you, I'll leave the door unlocked.

Pinche Mao

Let's see. You are walking to your car after work or you are at the mall. Someone pulls a gun and tells you to give them your wallet. What will you do, what WILL you do.

How about you answer your front door and some guy pulls a gun and tells you to get on your knees. What will you do, what WILL you do.

Thanks to the NRA, your attacker has a gun. What do you have?

Well I am very aware of my surroundings, that is the key to being safe. Most times if a bad guy sees that you are confident they will assume that you will put up a fight and they will move on. And I have a simple solution for the front door scenario, look through the peep hole and ask who it is first.

Umm, I don't remember the NRA ever going out of their way to enable a criminal to have a gun. They have actually been part of some of the harshest laws created to combat gun crimes, i.e. project exile, three strikes and you are out, added jail sentences for gun use in a crime to just name a few. Liberal judges and lazy prosecutors combined with a revolving door justice system have put guns into criminals hands not the NRA. If they were just locked up, they couldn't get guns. If you are going to place blame, place it where it belongs, on the people who write the laws that do nothing to protect American citizens. How does taking away my rights make me safer??? Gun laws only affect people who follow them, not the criminals.

And I have a simple solution for the front door scenario, look through the peep hole and ask who it is first.


Candy gram!!

I have been asking for scenatios where a gun would come in handy

And you've been provided with one.

Several times.

What you want are little fictional novellas whose endings you can change by applying your child-like imagination.

And that's what hyper-obtuse dumbasses do upon realizing they're martyrs to their own, utterly fucking ridiculous position.

You don't look so bad BuffaloBob, here' another!
Sincerely,
Bernardborne

It was your fantasy

It wasn't a "fantasy", Bob.

It was just a really dumbed down explanation of the mechanics of a firearm discharge.

How do you get your gun

That depends on where my gun is in relation to my corporeal entity, Bob.

what was the threat?

What threat?

"Once again, the context is the Bill of Rights. These are individual rights, granted by the gov't."

Actually they are human rights, so the gov't cant grant something you already have. just remember, what the government givith, the government can taketh away.

Pinche

"I have been asking for scenatios where a gun would come in handy

And you've been provided with one.

Several times."


I apologize for not seeing those posts---can you provide the time stamps?

Thanks to the NRA, your attacker has a gun. What do you have?

So there is someone else besides Boob who thinks criminals would be unarmed if not for the NRA. Yeah, we all see how well the war on drugs works. The same strategy will obviously work with guns

Whatever, pollyanna

I am a dumber man for having had this discussion.

Pinche


Got those time stamps? No? Then STFU.

My aunt had some nutjob perv calling her house and making statements that made it clear he was watching her routines - "Going to work are we?" - that sort of shit. He would also call only when her husband was not home. If left to their own devices, these types usually move from just scaring women to eventually attacking one.

Upon being informed that she had a loaded gun, knew had to use it and had no qualms about blowing the asshole's face off, he stopped calling. Probably found another victim who didn't have a gun.

That really happened. Apparently, he wasn't willing to risk that he would be able to overpower my aunt before she could shoot him - regardless of the scenario. It wouldn't be logical for him to face even a 10% chance of getting shot when he could bug someone else. Bob seems to believe that all criminals are secretly suicidal.

I have given the only scenario where a gun can come in as a good weapon for self defense. All you gun lovers can't seem to think of any other way it is good for self defense, and the one way it does come in handy could easily be handled in much better ways than a gun.

Per Mr. Mao: "In fact, not a single person who knows I have a gun as ever threatened my life or property.
That's about as close as you can get to a 100% rate, Bob."

I have never owned a gun nor fired a gun in my life. I am middle middle class (- no gated community, no exclusive neighborhood, no expensive alarm systems, etc.). Not a single person has ever threatened my life or my property. That's a 100%. Possession, or lack of possession of guns have nothing to do with it.

Not that it will happen in my lifetime, but I wonder what the impact would be on life in the United States if ALL gun ownership were prohibited except by the military and the police. Would the number of crime related homicides increase or decrease?

Well there is no reason to speculate, look at Europe, and there is your answer, but violent crime would be the least of your worries. Roughly over 100 million people were exterminated by their benevolent governments in the 20th century alone.

I am a dumber man for having had this discussion.

Even the strongest of us can get pulled into Buffy's tractor beam of ignorance, Pinche.

"I have given the only scenario where a gun can come in as a good weapon for self defense."

I think the character Dwight Shroot from the "The Office" is loosly based on Bob.

Sully

I doubt it was the threat of the gun. But if the guy was a real threat, what would have prevented him from just shooting or clubbing your aunt when she went to the store or work? I don't think the threat that she had a gun would have deterred someone that was really wanting to physically hurt her rather than terrorize her. The bad guy determines when and where, and makes the first move. Big advantages.

A better way to have handled the situation is to call the phone company and have them track the call. Such calls are illegal and people frequently do jail time for making such calls.

Gary Kleck, a criminologist and gun-control critic attributes a drop of 89% in the residential burglary rate to the law.[1] Kennesaw is often cited by advocates of gun ownership as evidence that gun ownership deters crime. (see, for instance, this 2004 sheet of talking points from the Gun Owners Foundation).

Current statistics indicate that Kennesaw's crime rate[4] is definitely lower compared to surrounding cities like Marietta[5], Smyrna[6], Alpharetta[7], or Atlanta[8].

Still don't think guns are a deterrent, Buffy Boob? The people of Kennesaw, gun critics, reporters, and facts disagree. Now STFU

BuffaloBob --

England has strict no gun laws.
If George Harrison were alive today, ask him if he wished he would have had a gun handy in his home on New Year's Eve 1999. The knife-carrying intruder that attacked Harrison and his wife would have been shot dead before he could have done any harm.

In Oxford, England today, members of the jury heard their first accounts of the night of December 30, 1999.

It was late on this evening when former Beatle George Harrison and his wife Olivia were attacked by Michael Abram, a knife-wielding and mentally disturbed intruder who was attempting to kill the former pop icon. George's description of the incident, in which he suffered a punctured lung, was troubling.

Harrison described in detail how "he thought he was going to die as the man pushed a knife into his chest and he felt blood rising toward his mouth." Although Harrison's statements were read to the jury, his wife Olivia appeared in person to recount the event.

"There was blood on the walls, blood on my hands and I realized that we were going to be murdered and this man was succeeding in murdering us and there was absolutely nobody else there to help," she said.

The Harrisons were awakened in the middle of the night by the sound of a downstairs window being smashed and George quickly ran down to investigate. It was at this point that he spotted the raving Abram, who was hysterically screaming and rushing toward Harrison.

In an attempt to confuse and disorient his attacker, Harrison began yelling, "Hare Krishna! Hare Krishna!" This did not have the desired effect, as Abram continued to attack, eventually wounding both George and Olivia before police arrived and arrested the crazed intruder.

Psychiatric evaluations suggest that Abram was convinced that he was possessed by Harrison and that he was sent on a mission from God to kill Harrison. Abram has pleaded innocent by reason of insanity to two counts of attempted murder.

"I doubt it was the threat of the gun. But if the guy was a real threat, what would have prevented him from just shooting or clubbing your aunt when she went to the store or work? I don't think the threat that she had a gun would have deterred someone that was really wanting to physically hurt her rather than terrorize her. The bad guy determines when and where, and makes the first move. Big advantages."

Jesus, Bob. Its a true story. That was the last call he made. It wasn't a coincidence. Regardless of his advantages, he didn't want to risk even the small chance of getting shot. You still change it around to fit in with your ridiculous "point". Amazing.

"A better way to have handled the situation is to call the phone company and have them track the call. Such calls are illegal and people frequently do jail time for making such calls."

This was 25 years ago. It wasn't so easy to track calls then, especially without having the police tap your lines or in your house. I can't remember, but I think she did call the cops and was blown off anyway. She was satisfied with the outcome her own actions brought.

sorry -- meant to stop the bold print at the end of the 5th paragraph of the quote

sorry -- meant to stop the bold print at the end of the 5th paragraph of the quote

You know, of course, we're going to have to shoot you now.

The fact that Giuilani took a cell-phone call from his wife in the middle of this speech to the IRA is very interesting. Did he forget to turn it off, or was it a deliberate distraction?

It sounded totally rehearsed, except for those two "I Love You"s, which I am always hearing people say, as if they have been told they have to at the end of every call. What's wrong with people who are as insecure as that?

I have given the only scenario where a gun can come in as a good weapon for self defense. All you gun lovers can't seem to think of any other way it is good for self defense, and the one way it does come in handy could easily be handled in much better ways than a gun.

I guess I don't know what you are looking for. Well there are a lot of scenario, be more specific. For example someone is trying to break in to my house, I am sure that I will wake, to the sound of glass breaking, or maybe to the alarm going off, and if that does not wake me up then my two dogs barking. Then the bad guy has to navigate his way to my room, and he will find a locked door and me behind it with a Short barreled 9mm Ar15 with several loaded 32 rd mags with some extremely nasty ammo, and if that is not enough I have various other tools at my disposal since one of my gun safes is in my bedroom closet.

Next scenario.

I am walking towards my car in a dark parking lot. Well I am pretty sure that I will see a person or persons in the area, if they look like they might be a problem, my spider senses will tingle. This is where I make a decision to go to my car or go back to my office, shopping mall or what ever. But I will have my daily carry gun on me, a HK USP compact in .40 caliber with several 12 rd mags and some very nasty ammo.

Next scenario.

I am in a local quicky mart. Bad guy comes in to rob the place, he pulls his weapon of choice what ever that may be. He is unaware of my presence (since most likely he is ether hopped up on some drug, or he really hasn't thought out his plan of action) I draw and fire, bang one less scum bag.

Next scenario.

My wife and I are in the park taking a walk or having a picnic. Bad guy confronts both of us, demands what ever he wants (probably to pay for drugs or what ever else, and probably has not thought his robbery through) hopefully I am quick enough or she is quick enough to pull our pistols and deter the crime or fight it out (strength in numbers)

Next scenario.

I am camping with my buddies in Colorado, Utah, Montana, Idaho or where ever. I come across a black bear, angry moose or any other four leg critter. All attempts to scare away the animals have not worked and they are dead set on killing me or my buddies. I will have my .41 mag 6 shot revolver or my 300 Remington Ultra Mag or 375 H.H bolt action rifles. There is also the two legged critters to worry about in the national forests and national parks. Crime is rampant in these areas with backwoods meth labs and other nefarious activities.

Next scenario.

The US government no longer respects your rights and further has decided they don't like people of your ilk (pick your vice or life style or political group) and now they are rounding you up for re-education or something far worse. The government no longer functions as a Republic (we are not a democracy) and becomes a dictatorship and tyranny has set in, the gov't goons are pounding on your door to take what ever it is that they want (This one you may not live through). You decide enough is enough and you fight back. You may think what can one man do against the most powerful army in the world, Well nothing, but if enough of you fight it is a different story. Look at Afghanistan and afghan rebels. They beet one of the most powerful armies in the world with simple WW1 era rifles and capture equipment.

These are the reasons especially the last one why have guns, everything else is trivial at best. Bad people will always have access to them, and you don't want the government to have the sole monopoly on them. We need to keep the balance of power between the people and the state and the criminal element. Hope that's enough scenarios for you.

Savemycountry, I really do respect your position on this issue. But I disagree with you. I personally think that most of the scenarios you suggests are either silly, extremely unlikely, or, in the event they should occur, more likely to result in either yourself or someone you love being shot or killed. I suppose on this issue intelligent minds may differ.

Save my country.

I guess I don't know what you are looking for. Well there are a lot of scenario, be more specific. For example someone is trying to break in to my house, I am sure that I will wake, to the sound of glass breaking, or maybe to the alarm going off, and if that does not wake me up then my two dogs barking. Then the bad guy has to navigate his way to my room, and he will find a locked door and me behind it with a Short barreled 9mm Ar15 with several loaded 32 rd mags with some extremely nasty ammo, and if that is not enough I have various other tools at my disposal since one of my gun safes is in my bedroom closet.


That was my one scenario. A bad guy is breaking into your house when you are there and gives you enough time to get to your gun. Sorry---can't count this one.

Next scenario

"I am walking towards my car in a dark parking lot. Well I am pretty sure that I will see a person or persons in the area, if they look like they might be a problem, my spider senses will tingle. This is where I make a decision to go to my car or go back to my office, shopping mall or what ever. But I will have my daily carry gun on me, a HK USP compact in .40 caliber with several 12 rd mags and some very nasty ammo.

Your gun was not a factor at all in this scenario. You stopped before any confrontation.

Next scenario.

I am in a local quicky mart. Bad guy comes in to rob the place, he pulls his weapon of choice what ever that may be. He is unaware of my presence (since most likely he is ether hopped up on some drug, or he really hasn't thought out his plan of action) I draw and fire, bang one less scum bag.

That is not self defense. You used your gun as an offensive weapons. I have conceded guns are offensive weapons. I'm looking for a scenario where you use the gun to defend yourself from some attacker.

Next scenario.

My wife and I are in the park taking a walk or having a picnic. Bad guy confronts both of us, demands what ever he wants (probably to pay for drugs or what ever else, and probably has not thought his robbery through) hopefully I am quick enough or she is quick enough to pull our pistols and deter the crime or fight it out (strength in numbers)

It works if your attacker has no gun and attacks head on and is alone. There are risks even then. If he is drugged, he may still stab you or your wife before dying, or maybe even both. You could kill an innocent bystander if your bullet goes through him or misses. However, if your attacker has a gun and an accomplice, you have added your weapons to the crime wave currently sweeping your city. From my point of view if he has a knife, I give him the money--the risks aren't worth the loss. If he then attacks with the knife I will defend myself. If he has a gun, your gun wouldn't make any difference would it?

Next scenario.

"I am camping with my buddies in Colorado, Utah, Montana, Idaho or where ever. I come across a black bear, angry moose or any other four leg critter. All attempts to scare away the animals have not worked and they are dead set on killing me or my buddies. I will have my .41 mag 6 shot revolver or my 300 Remington Ultra Mag or 375 H.H bolt action rifles. There is also the two legged critters to worry about in the national forests and national parks. Crime is rampant in these areas with backwoods meth labs and other nefarious activities."

Hunting activities are not the point of discussion, and moose are rarely shot with hand guns. As to your nefarious characters---you failed to describe any scenario where you met them and your gun came to your defense. Chances are if you met those people they would have their guns on you first. Bad guys always make the first move.

Next scenario.

"The US government no longer respects your rights and further has decided they don't like people of your ilk (pick your vice or life style or political group) and now they are rounding you up for re-education or something far worse. The government no longer functions as a Republic (we are not a democracy) and becomes a dictatorship and tyranny has set in, the gov't goons are pounding on your door to take what ever it is that they want (This one you may not live through). You decide enough is enough and you fight back. You may think what can one man do against the most powerful army in the world, Well nothing, but if enough of you fight it is a different story. Look at Afghanistan and afghan rebels. They beet one of the most powerful armies in the world with simple WW1 era rifles and capture equipment.

I don't think your army is going to do much against aircraft carriers. It didn't help at WACO or Ruby Ridge. I don't see any government attacks on the population that could be influenced one way or the other if you had AK-47's or even tanks. Look at the Road to Baghdad after the first Gulf conflict. They had better weapons than you'll ever have. In that scenario it would have been better to have been unarmed and away from that road, than be armed and on that road. Their weapons wern't much of a defense.

The death and dsestruction that guns bring to the country is a reality. The chance of our government attacking as you suggest is slim.

You know, of course, we're going to have to shoot you now.

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-21 05:44 PM |

You can't. BuffaloBob took away everbody's guns.

BuffaloBob -

You little devil, you intentionally didn't answer my "What would George Harrison have done" post

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-21 05:33 PM | Reply

Harrison was all for peace and harmony and hare krishna -- but if he was here today do you not think he would have wanted a gun that night?

QUESTION FOR BUFFALOBOB: Do you think Britain's no gun laws were responsible for George Harrison being unarmed that night and therefore easy prey for the wacko invader who entered his home and stabbed him multiple times in the chest?

Pick your answer: YES or NO

The death and dsestruction that guns bring to the country is a reality. The chance of our government attacking as you suggest is slim.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2007-09-21 07:17 P

Wake up, BuffaloBRAIN -- guys who want guns buy them off the black market or steal them. All you do by penalizing the gun shops is make it harder for honest, law abiding citizens to protect themselves.

You little devil, you intentionally didn't answer my "What would George Harrison have done" post

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-21 05:33 PM | Reply



You forget that I gave one scenario where a gun would be good for self defense. The George Harrison scenario is the one scenario I specified.


An intruder breaks into your house and gives you enough time to get to your gun.

However if Harrison had spent $25 a month on an alarm system he could have saved himself some grief. If he had spent a few bucks on some dogs he could have escaped while the dogs diverted attention. If he had a tazer, he could have made the guy do the funky chicken. If he had a bat by his bed he could have played baseball with the guys head.

However your submission was disqualified for being the one scenario I suggested where a gun could help. You should have read the thread.

Savemycountry, I really do respect your position on this issue. But I disagree with you. I personally think that most of the scenarios you suggests are either silly, extremely unlikely, or, in the event they should occur, more likely to result in either yourself or someone you love being shot or killed. I suppose on this issue intelligent minds may differ.

I was trying to put a little humor behind it, oh well. These are all very possible scenarios, but most people generally thing all this stuff happens to someone else in newspapers or on TV. Most times you don't here of people defending them selves because it simply does not generate news. This is partially because the media is more concerned with making a buck or feel that good guy getting killed makes more sensational headlines. either way bad things happen to good people and guns are a great equalizer. is it better for a 125 lbs. woman to let her self be raped and killed or to have her defend herself and have a chance at life and not be defiled. Most times people get killed by there attacker if they comply, and people have a better chance of surviving a a criminal attack if they simply fight back, even with bare hands. As i posted before criminals prefer unarmed victims because this puts them in a position of power over you, if you have at least an equal footing, the bad guy has a tendency to back off or at least re examine the situation thinking that he might get hurt, arrested or worse killed. Guns in society are not the problem; it is the people who wield them. They are tools and no more, they do not poses power of people or tell them to commit crimes. This is unfortunately a human character flaw and should be dealt with accordingly, long prison sentences, and life for repeat offenders.
Also this goes out to all of the NRA haters on this board. When you make the statement that the NRA puts guns into criminal hands this is just plain absurd, and you should know better if you are truly a reasonable thinking person. To what ends does it benefit the NRA to give guns to criminals? Is there a financial gain? is there a political gain? This would be on the level of a vast conspiracy and all players would be put in prison or worse. Now what is mostly like happening is that Politicians, Celebrities and any other persons who are either nave or sinister (sometimes both) use catch phrases like the NRA is holding America hostage, or the NRA puts guns in to criminal hands. They do this to stir up emotion rather than logic, because it does not take much brain power to figure out that this is preposterous and down right un true. You should always ask your self why is it that politicians want to restrict my rights, is it for my safety or for the safety for my country?


Post continues

I am totally Anti Hunting. I do not believe in it PERSONALLY. That being said I do not have the right to take away another persons Constitutional Protected Right to own a Gun. As a matter of fact it was a REQUIREMENT of every Freeman to own a weapon and to have one at the ready. It was also encouraged to have the Male offspring to be educated in how to fire a gun.

Larry

If you look at all gun laws, they have done nothing to stop any criminal from killing, raping, stealing or any other criminal activity. But look at the over all picture of your rights since FDR. They have dwindled as the central gov't grew. Also look at most gun laws, the first big one being the National Firearms Act of 1934, this law forces everyone to ether register currently owned or newly made machine guns, suppressors, short barreled rifles, short barreled shot guns, destructive devices or AOWs ( pen guns you know like James Bond stuff) this has done nothing to reduce crime what so ever. It was intended to curb organized crime, gee that's work well. The next biggie, was the Gun Control Act of 1968, if you look at the text of the bill next to the 1938 Nazi gun control legislation (the one that said Jews could not own guns, and we all know how that turned out) it is almost verbatim except for a few small things like the mentioning of Jews and others the Nazis thought were undesirable. This bill banned mail orders of firearms, ammunition and the importation of foreign made machine guns. The politicians stated that this would save lives but, guess what it didn't, people are still being killed. Next came the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act. This made any new machine guns illegal for Civilians to own. It also repealed some parts of the 68 gun control act. But not enough to really count. See a pattern here, as our rights dwindle the gov't power grows. It will get to the point where it will no longer matter if you have a right to do anything since it will be legislated out of existence. And we are all to happy to help the powers that be legislate us all in slaves. But hey, some here might like that. Wake up people it isn't left .vs right it is the state against you

Wake up, BuffaloBRAIN -- guys who want guns buy them off the black market or steal them. All you do by penalizing the gun shops is make it harder for honest, law abiding citizens to protect themselves.

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-21 07:36 PM


Sure--now. And the same thing could be said 500 years from now--or ten thousand. However if we get rid of the guns--all the guns--even if it takes 500 years, the guns will be off the streets. We have different views of the future.

I haven't seen anything yet where a gun is a good thing for self defense. Other than the one scenario I mentioned.

Ever wonder why they stopped carrying guns on every hip in the old west?

Ok don't own a gun, just stay away from mine and we will all be ok. But make no mistake, you threaten my life, the lives of the people i care about, break into my home or try to subjugate me because you will be very sorry that you did. There are a lot of people who feel exactly the same way I do. Be warned, your actions may produce results that are harmful to your health!!!

But look at the over all picture of your rights since FDR

Name the rights that have dwindled. America has become a much freer country since FDR.

"The chance of our government attacking as you suggest is slim."

Nobody knows what the future holds. Much can happen in a short period of time. Often things can changeIt is Irresponsible to deny our posterity the means of protection from an overzealous government. Especially to provide minimal protection from the missuse of those means now. Arms are necessary to protect the people from government assertions of power not conceeded.

Sorry, third sentance should have said, "Often things can change very quickly."

"Name how you're rights have dwindled...."

If memory serves, you don't think people have rights.

"Name the rights that have dwindled..."

If memory serves, you don't think people have rights.

Sorry, OC kicking in.

Savemycountry.

You seem to be paranoid. You seem to live in fear. You seem to need a gun to feel safe. You have a name that seems to say you care about America. Yet you think that America will attack you.

"America has become a much freer country since FDR."

How so? I'd like to hear the freedoms I have now that I did not have before FDR.

BuffaloBob

You forget that I gave one scenario where a gun would be good for self defense. The George Harrison scenario is the one scenario I specified.

However your submission was disqualified for being the one scenario I suggested where a gun could help. You should have read the thread.


I'm assuming you meant this quote from one of your earlier posts:

There is only ONE scenario where a gun might help you. That is if a criminal is so stupid as to break into your house when you are there and he gives you enough time to find and load your weapon. Other than that your gun is a useless tool, and even in the situation I just mentioned---there are much better ways of protecting yourself. An intruder breaks into your house and gives you enough time to get to your gun.

However if Harrison had spent $25 a month on an alarm system he could have saved himself some grief. If he had spent a few bucks on some dogs he could have escaped while the dogs diverted attention. If he had a tazer, he could have made the guy do the funky chicken. If he had a bat by his bed he could have played baseball with the guy's head.

BB

You seem to be paranoid. You seem to live in fear. You seem to need a gun to feel safe. ...

Don't mean to pry so don't answer if you'd rather not -- but do you live in a somewhat large city or in a very rural area? (You don't have to say where.) How many people a year are shot and killed in your city?

Well hell here are some stats :

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)

Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)

Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -

Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -

England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)

Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995)

BuffaloBob

One more point --
in your preferred methods of protecting oneself -- house alarms, dogs -- you are leaving it to outside factors other than your own physical self to protect you. You are counting on the dogs not being stopped/killed by the intruder and/or the house alarm system working and not being intentionally disabled by the intruder. You have no control over whether or not that occurs.

When you have a gun there are no outside factors to depend on -- you can depend on yourself (assuming the gun works). Plus, your baseball bat theory doesn't work well at all for women as a guy can usually yank it out of their hands fairly easily. And then what?

Yet you think that America will attack you.


Big and Ugly has worked for me. Few lumps when it didn't, but I'm a camper and photographer and when you're carrying valuable equipment in out of the way places there's a chance that you'll come across some thieves.

Or some boys cookin' meth.

I've done some foolish things, you have no idea, but I do not go traveling without a firearm. Nor do I go without cash.

I haven't ever killed anyone but I have no problem shooting a thief in the ass.

I recall a Youtube video which began with a couple of rednecks chasing a sports car with a couple in it.

The goobers get suckered into following the roadster down a dead-end country road and proceed to exit said pickup truck with one recording the impending fuck up on video and the other with a baseball bat.

Driver of sports car emerges with large auto handgun aimed right at bat boy goober's breadbasket, all dutifully recorded by the sidekick.

Girlfriend retrieves camera and truck keys and both leave.


Last asshole who came into my house and threatened me got his brain blown out the back of his head. So what if it was a rattlesnake?

I call bullshit on this alleged YouTube vid.

Put up a link or STFU.

Guns give you the upper hand. Ever wonder where the gun to a knife fight saying came from? To protect myself or my family i want superiority.
But bob is right they are a weapon witch are offensive by definition. Last time i checked they don't make a good shield for bullets or knives they do however make a great deterrent and can, will, do save lives.


I myself have been mugged. I saw the situation escalating i knew what was going to happen but at the time there was nothing i could do, now by producing my 1911 the situation would not have ended the way it did(not too badly.) but if he want it in a scenario form so here goes.



Three man approaches you in an ally. Produce crack cocaine and tell you to buy it. you say no, he gets pissed. his fat buddy steps toward you and the skinny one to the side. there is no where to run and nothing else to use as a weapon. To make matters worse you have two broken and swollen knuckles. Do you step back, draw and tell them to get the fuck out of there or do you take the impending beating not knowing if they will stop?

And yes bob sometimes you have to walk in alleys.

Go find it yourself.
They left the truck keys in the sewer, try that for a search.
All I have out here right now is dialup.
A cell company cut the fiber, trying to put the local small ISP out of business no doubt.

Apologies to the blind swordsman...

and thanks to the French Fried Tater.


Pretty good vid.

Um Zat.

Spud is find it already.

Not Youtube but Break.

Click link to confirm it's the same one.

Be Well.

Yeah, I've always enjoyed streaming video on dialup. Give it a shot Zat.

GATOR...YOU ARE RIGHT...Awarness is your first line of defense...guns are usuless if you are not aware...like most people...i am unable to get into drawn out fist fights...i refuse to get into any fight with any stranger....so the option for defense for me is mainly a weapon (gun or knife)

"Click link to confirm it's the same one."

Dialup too slow.
But OZ is wrong.
What else is new?

I had a good friend killed in a drive-by in '67 in Waco, Texas, by the way.

An 8th grader with daddy's rifle. They let him back out at 18 and then he killed a cop.

You'd like my knives Judus.

Kabar exstreme D-2 steel and I can shave arm hair with it. My utility is an old Puma General, when they still made them in Germany. I sharpened the clip point while I was at it.

Well the boy was homicidal, no doubt.

Did anyone wonder why?

"Apologies to the blind swordsman..."

Accepted with pleasure.

As for knives, well, ...

I have a Dacor dive knife; Since the 60's.
It's been at Tektite, Hawaii, Coral Sea, Cozumel.

I declared it at Sydney: Customs agent "Now that's a knife."

"Just for diving," says I.
"See to it, and good diving," said she.

Alas the coral was already dead and that was in '96.
Lameshur Bay in 1970 was so much different.
Sad to watch a species commit suicide.

ZAT

Just finished the video you recommended (and thanks Tater for linking it).

Zat, it made the perfect point why a gun is numero uno if you want protection. The redneck guy's baseball bat wasn't worth squat against that gun.

I especially like the line from one of the rednecks when he yells out to the car they're chasing -- "Where do you think you are...TEXAS" hahahaha

When one drops a running coyote at 700 yards on one's ranch with witnesses and a carcass word gets around.

Living next to a National Guard gunnery range doesn't hurt either.

bang bang

"actually flies to Salt Lake City and starts going door to door in the heart of LDS country and preaching athiesm."

WHAT FUN!!

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster buy the next round of margaritas.

News flash, Bob. Criminals get whatever they want with or without the NRA.

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-21 04:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Miracle Whip, it's all cool by me."

Posted by TreesGoneWild

Miracle Whip was the nickname of a girl in the band.
Cool whip is another thing entirely.

Fresh Pompano at Vespaio with The Goddess.

"
I do not, however, own a gun.
"

Funny

I was given my first rifle at five.

I was given my first rifle at five.

Posted by Zatoichi at 2007-09-21 10:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I do not, however, own a gun."=TARGET

Trees

My father was a gunnery instructor at Ft Bliss.

""Where do you think you are...TEXAS" hahahaha"

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-21 09:41 PM | Reply


I had family at San Jacinto; Name's on the monument.
I had family built the damn monument.
I left family who will keep the flame alive, too.



You bet your sweet ass I'm in Texas.

"I do not, however, own a gun."=

Z: Sydney: Customs agent "Now that's a knife."

SG: And yes bob sometimes you have to walk in alleys.

TGW: I do not, however, own a gun.

Reminds Spud...

Hustler talking on the telephone
You better leave my woman alone,
I'm a jealous man, I'd die for Love
If you don't want to meet me in the alley tonight,
Too late for talkin', I'm ready to fight,
Leave her alone, hang up the phone,

You got the knife, I got the gun,
Come on Boy, we gonna have a little fun,
I'm a crazy man, I'd die for Love,

Gotta luff Hoyt Axton. Ya really do.

Also WKRP in Cinninatti.

Be Well.

"
I think my parents saw the wisdom in not letting me anywhere near a fire arm.
"

Too bad.

It's a Zen thing.

My daughter brought back all sorts of awards from Cimmaroncita for her shooting.

OZ...yea my buddy got me into knives as a defense weapon...even though i carry a gun...my first line in defense (beside awarness) is a knife

Zat,

I was a bit prone to accidental mayhem when I was young, and that's putting it mildly.

I never really intended for the mayhem to happen, it just sort of, well you know the law of unintended consequences?

I mean, I had a Chemistry set, but the chemicals that came with it were sissy...and really who knew that Drano would eat right through the carpeting, pading and part of the floor?

After that, I didn't have a chemistry set anymore.

Really, it was totally better that I didn't have access to guns, or a bow and arrow, or even a BB Gun.

Seriously, I almost put my brother's eye out with a plastic bat, accidentally of course.

His retalliation with a tennis racket, not so accidental but we've moved past that.

TREE...my buddy owns a self defense store that caters to women...criminals will never pick the strong to be the victim...its always for the weak...now you have to ask yourself this question....Will the criminal do the right thing and not harm you???.i do not beileve that criminals will do the right thing and i do not trust them to do the right thing

Judas,

My job isn't exactly safe, so I do have ways to defend myself if necessary. I took my first self defense course twenty years ago after becoming a statistic. I've been taking regular courses since then. I've also been in immediate peril twice since then and come out unscathed largely due to being able to defend myself. I've avoided situations as well simply by being acutely aware of my surroundings.

I've often thought about getting a gun, in all seriousness though, I am so prone to accidents that I really am one of those people who should not own a gun.

I don't trust anyone to do the right thing, especially a criminal, I don't count on it either. I don't believe a gun will make me safer, however, I am not opposed to people who believe that owning a gun makes them safer. I fully support the second amendment, just like I fully support freedom of speech and freedom of and from religion. I fully support all the tenents of the Constitution.

If you want a gun, have a gun. I don't want one. You can still have one, I don't care.

TREE...have you looked into alternate means of protection...like pepper sprays and tazers...i would not recommend a knife to any women (because people ususally hesitate to stab)....but reconcider a gun if you think alternate methods of protection are not enough...guns can be useful if practiced often... their are vidoes out there that can help you in practice

BB

You seem to be paranoid. You seem to live in fear. You seem to need a gun to feel safe. ...

Don't mean to pry so don't answer if you'd rather not -- but do you live in a somewhat large city or in a very rural area? (You don't have to say where.) How many people a year are shot and killed in your city?

I currently live near Austin, TX. But I grew up in NY and CA both of which have high murder rates. Am I paranoid? No, I really don't think about it much to tell you the truth, really only when I see boards like this. Does wearing a seatbelt make you paranoid, does wearing a helmet when you drive a motorcycle? No of course not, but I am sure you will be happy you had it when there is an accident!!! As far as my country, I am pretty concerned in the direction it is going (TOO left or TOO right) if you haven't noticed the people who are at the helm for both parties are fucking nuts!!!. So yes I am a little concerned when it comes to my rights, as you should be too. The bill of rights and the constitution is not a catch phrase or something that something that you got tested on in some civics class. It is who we are and what we are about to the core of American society. Regardless if you are a Lefty or a Righty this should be a document you should be able to recite from memory and understand what it truly means. I would fall under the conservative stereo type, but I am not a republican. I believe in God but i am not part of the religious right and I am a gun owning American who believes in the actual written constitution, not some liberally interptited document that does not exist.

lower right corner

Thanx fer that Oz.

The lies of BushCo are legion and in a perfect it woulda led to them all sitting in jail by now.

"some people get away with lying", indeed.

Be Well.

I currently live near Austin, TX.

That's actually a good thing Trees.

No use doing something you wouldn't be good at.

TREE...have you looked into alternate means of protection...like pepper sprays and tazers...i would not recommend a knife to any women (because people ususally hesitate to stab)....but reconcider a gun if you think alternate methods of protection are not enough...guns can be useful if practiced often... their are vidoes out there that can help you in practice

Posted by judas at 2007-09-21 10:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

i was never good at licking pussy first...but with practice i got really good

TREE...as long as you have awarness and a good pair of running shoes you are good to go in my book

"but with practice i got really good"

Posted by judas

Advice from a sane woman helps.
Sane women are willing to help.

"They are so very grateful."
-Ben Franklin

I wouldn't mind getting a gun and learning how to shoot. What's a good one to buy for protection in your home? We've had burglaries lately around here and even entering when people are home. The cops are quick but there's still that time until they can get to your door.

TREE...some advice...buy the gun...if you need it or not does not matter....you can always store it away.....and in time take it out pratice with it once in awhile....put it together and take it apart...get familiar with it....and in time im sure you will be comforatble with it around to were you will not fear the weapon but control the weapon

CC...if you are a beginner i recommed a revolver...a 357 is a good choice because it has the power but if you need to practice you can use 38.special loads...the brand i recommed because of the price and reliablilty is Tarus

CC... the only reason i recommend a revolver because of less confucsion and does not jam...also they do not have safety you have to fiddle with

Judas

38.special loads...the brand i recommed because of the price and reliablilty is Tarus

Thanks. Is there a lot of difference in what you'd need for protection between a 357 and a 38? It's not like I'm going to be using it everyday.

"What's a good one to buy for protection in your home?"


A large fraction of police officers are killed with their own guns.

If you are not comfortable and trained with weapons it's best if you do not introduce them into the equation.

I snuffed that rattler without a thought; instinctive.

Given a Model 19 Smith you might just shoot yourself, or arm your intruder.

Any notion that we can somehow eliminate weapons is just plain stupid.

Judas

I was asking and you were answering both at the same time. got cha'

Well hell here are some stats :

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)

Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)

Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -

Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -

England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)

Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995)

Just putting out stats with out explanation is pretty meaningless. Lets look at our neighbors in Canada, we have ten times there population or look at Switzerland, the militia is issued a sig 556 machinegun (to bring home) Japan has something like 3 or 4 times the suicide rate of the USA, with means other than a firearm, so these stats are pretty meaningless. But if you look at the UK, violent crime has soared since 1997 when parliament instituted an almost complete firearms ban and the same with Australia. So people are going to kill themselves regardless of the tools at hand. But you then might come back well over 30 some thousand people are killed in the USA per year by guns. This would be a very misleading statement. Considering that this includes the following.

Gang shootings
Drug Deals or activities dealing with narcotics trafficking
Police shooting criminals
Citizens shooting criminals
And there are many more examples of violent crime. Now you might also say so many kids are killed by guns every year. Well you might be surprised that most of the children being killed are really not children at all they are in the 18 19 year olds who are in the process of committing felonies or have a lengthy criminal record. In fact more 1 -5 year olds die in five gallon paint buckets than do in firearm violence. Stats can be twisted to say anything the pollster wants. You might say well guns are bad and they kill to many people, ok so are cars and doctors you want to get rid of them?

ZAT

If you are not comfortable and trained with weapons it's best if you do not introduce them into the equation....,

I would think the comfort level would come with being trained. You have to start somewhere.

I am as nothing compared to Bill Jordan.

There truly is no second place winner.

CC.... no you can use both rounds in a 357...but if you own a 38 you can NOT use 357 rounds....the reason i said 357 is because it uses both round and 38 tend to be cheaper (for target pratice ) and 357 rounds (self defense rounds) tend to be expensive

357 tends to have knock down power...38 not so much

357 tends to have knock down power...38 not so much

Posted by judas at 2007-09-21 11:21 PM

So in other words if I shoot him with a 38 he could end up only slightly wounded, now really angry 'cause he's hurting, and keep on coming at me?

38's with lead bullets can foul a .357.

Takes work, though.

Model 19 Smith rules for instinctive shooting.

That pistol will be removed from my cold dead fingers.

And I have some handloads on top of WW296 that will fuck you up.

Also in .41 and .44.

296 rules.

Savemycountry-
re: But you then might come back well over 30 some thousand people are killed in the USA per year by guns.

Ok, just for creepy kicks I'll say that. How many were killed by guns in Canada and Japan. Hell, just for more fun, what are the per-capita incidents of gun deaths in Canada and Japan versus the US? (let me add that I own guns, and will continue to do so, but let's get the numbers right and move on from there)

Chris i would start with a semi due to increased safety and speed of loading. while a rev will have more powerful round available to it but a 40S&W or a .45 auto will still do great. For protection you cant beat federal hydra shok.

You know Chris, a revolver should not be used by someone who didn't start around 16 or younger. With the adrenaline pumping you'll make mistakes.

12 gauge dbl barrel or pump. You barricade first, shoot second. Even if you're just dragging furniture to the door you deny them physical access. Or at least make them crawl over something.

Same defense with knifes.

"What's a good one to buy for protection in your home?"


A large fraction of police officers are killed with their own guns.

If you are not comfortable and trained with weapons it's best if you do not introduce them into the equation.
I snuffed that rattler without a thought; instinctive.
Given a Model 19 Smith you might just shoot yourself, or arm your intruder.
Any notion that we can somehow eliminate weapons is just plain stupid.
Please cite your source for this "A large fraction of police officers are killed with their own guns." Or is this from the Brady campaign website? I do recommend getting training, but it like any other Civil right does not require it, but if it is misused you will pay the piper for your actions. Also most Cops aren't avid shooters, they do their range time once or twice a year and qualify with their service weapons. I am by far better trained and much more experience with firearms than probably 60% of police. I shoot every weekend and go through at least 3 4 thousand rounds a month.

besides it sounds so good to pull that slide back and let it go(not supposed to do that)

So in other words if I shoot him with a 38 he could end up only slightly wounded, now really angry 'cause he's hurting, and keep on coming at me?

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-21 11:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I would think the comfort level would come with being trained. You have to start somewhere."

Posted by CalifChris

Which is why we need a draft and a way to train everybody.

It's been too late for a long time.
Earth is just one ball of shit on a big stage.

or a big ball of shit on a little stage

12 gauge dbl barrel or pump. You barricade first, shoot second. Even if you're just dragging furniture to the door you deny them physical access. Or at least make them crawl over something.

Same defense with knifes.

Posted by OzarkAggie at 2007-09-21 11:29 P

I just need protection for someone entering the house for whatever and I don't want them there. As for barricading the door, maybe if the entire City of Los Angeles was out of control with rioting and dissolving into anarchy but otherwise I don't need to go to that extent.

30 some thousand people are killed in the USA per year by guns.

But you also quoted or said that when guns weren't available people were using other weapons, right?

So by all means let's stick with the efficacious.

Regarding gun control and homicide rates in England, to invoke the immortal Bobcat Goldthwait: "Either gun control works, or you people can't hit the broad side of a frigging BARN!"

Hans

Which is why we need a draft and a way to train everybody.

It's been too late for a long time.
Earth is just one ball of shit on a big stage.

Posted by Zatoichi at 2007-09-21 11:30 PM | R

Geeze, give me a break. I'm not going out and join the Army. How about going along with a few gun lessons at the local shooting range, okay?

30K?

That's nothing compared to cigarettes.

How many by Iraqi terrorists?

What are your thoughts on living on an insane planet?

It beats being an asteroid.

Savemycountry-
re: I shoot every weekend and go through at least 3 4 thousand rounds a month.

Three to four thousand rounds per month, or 34 thousand? Hell, I suppose it's kinda excessive either way. What army are you in?

357 tends to have knock down power...38 not so much

Posted by judas at 2007-09-21 11:21 PM

So in other words if I shoot him with a 38 he could end up only slightly wounded, now really angry 'cause he's hurting, and keep on coming at me?

No, shot placement is the key, shot someone in the brain or other vital organ like heart, lung, liver etc. you will drop them.

Gun control wouldn't work in the US, we'd just find some other way to massacre each other. It's our culture.

Canada has more guns per person than we do, and we beat them out in gun related violence everytime.

"You know Chris, a revolver should not be used by someone who didn't start around 16 or younger. With the adrenaline pumping you'll make mistakes."


or you learn how to handle one and there is no problem.
you dont have to start at 16, there are courses you can take if you want.

re: I shoot every weekend and go through at least 3 4 thousand rounds a month.

Three to four thousand rounds per month, or 34 thousand? Hell, I suppose it's kinda excessive either way. What army are you in?

I sam not in any Army, I reload, saves tons of money. andf it was 3000 to 4000 rds a month. ranging from pistol and rifle (long range) and durring off seasons lots of trap and skeet. Heck when i was in the US ARMY i shot less on the gov't dime. Klinton wasnt so good to us

"No, shot placement is the key, shot someone in the brain or other vital organ like heart, lung, liver etc. you will drop them."



nope, a 38 does not have the penetration necessary to make many fatal shots. in defense bigger is better a slower heavier bullet is the key. i it is a dire situation then you wont be as accurate as at the range you need to stop them now.

"
Geeze, give me a break. I'm not going out and join the Army. How about going along with a few gun lessons at the local shooting range, okay?
"

Posted by CalifChris

gO FOR IT, SCOOTER.


Then please kill whoever invented the caps lock key.

Alexandrite-
re: "Canada has more guns per person than we do, and we beat them out in gun related violence everytime."

Gee, after reading this thread I really can't imagine why that would be so.

I have stupid question for the blog.

Who is "them"?

I mean, who are you firing several thousand rounds a month to protect yourselves from?

I mean, who are you firing several thousand rounds a month to protect yourselves from?

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-21 11:48 PM |

The guy crawling in your window when you're asleep or jiggling the lock on your front door and you know for sure you never gave him a key.

Look, folks. I have several firearms, and I'm pretty good with everything but the pistol, but you some of you seem to make a fetish out of it.

So what fears do you think you're protecting yourselves from?

Nope, a 38 does not have the penetration necessary to make many fatal shots....

I think one fatal shot would be sufficient.

CC-
re: The guy crawling in your window when you're asleep or jiggling the lock on your front door and you know for sure you never gave him a key.

I don't need to obsessively fire assault rifles to protect myself from that.

cooper its just like cars or planes or computers, it a hobby. i for one do not sit around stroking my barrel hoping somebody tries to break in but this hobby had the benefit of protection.

Look, folks. I have several firearms, and I'm pretty good with everything but the pistol, but you some of you seem to make a fetish out of it.

So what fears do you think you're protecting yourselves from?

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-21 11:51 PM |

You've got several guns and I have none but I'm the one with a gun fetish?

"thousand rounds a month"

Not a handloader?

I have sets of rounds from groups I built in the 70's.
"You can shoot the ticks off my deer."

My favorite quote from my old man when I was a kid:
"Son, when your commanding officer orders you to 'Shoot that man's eye out!', the appropriate response is, "Which eye, sir?"

"If he's good, he'll let you pick."

Night.

"I think one fatal shot would be sufficient."

but then again if it were a group of ninjas...

Seriously, CC, anyone who fires several thousand rounds a month is either in the army, or fucked up in some way I don't really care to contemplate.

Alex&rite makes a point...

Canada has more guns per person than we do, and we beat them out in gun related violence everytime.

Is true we have more guns and less violence on the books up here but that's partially a statistical anomoly.

Canadians are every bit as violent and vengeful as Americans and so we do shoot at each other, at about the same rate you'd find in the US. The big difference, of course, up here is all the Rye Whiskey that we drink. Which is to say, despite the fact we all own guns and shoot them at each other all the time the fact that we're all so freakin hammered also means that most of those shots miss and thus don't end up reflected in the final numbers.

The Rye drinking tends to stem ftom the fact that all Canadian boys grow up wanting to make it big in the NHL and once those boyhood dreams are crushed we get all bitter and turn to drink.

Spud is glad he could clear that up fer ya's.

Ha! Spud is unofficial ambassador guy! ^_^

Be Well, eh.

I mean, who are you firing several thousand rounds a month to protect yourselves from?

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-21 11:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Seriously, CC, anyone who fires several thousand rounds a month is either in the army, or fucked up in some way I don't really care to contemplate.

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-21 11:56 PM

You do have a point there, Cooper -- about the several thousand rounds a month.

night

I mean, who are you firing several thousand rounds a month to protect yourselves from?

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-21 11:48 PM | Reply | Flag:


Garden Gnomes.

Posted by TreesGoneWild at 2007-09-21 11:57 PM

You could turn them into sprinklers.

I have stupid question for the blog.

Who is "them"?

I mean, who are you firing several thousand rounds a month to protect yourselves from?

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-21 11:48 PM | Reply | Flag:


When Clinton was president it was the govt the gun nuts feared.

Now? Who knows...marxists?

Doesn't matter anyway. The army took away citizens guns in the aftermath of Katrina and the NRA didn't make a peep.

The NRA do not fear the establishment unless a democrat is in office.

I live next to the Camp Swift gunnery range and I don't even hear several thousand rounds a year.

BB is misguided.

Who does he think the militia was composed of?

The people, who had to supply their own arms.

When the militia was called up, they wanted it well regulated. The militia wasn't a standing army.

Since practically every citizen was armed at the time, "the right of the people"(everybody) meant just that.

Without an armed citizenry, there would be no militia.

Only verbal gymnasts in the 21st century will attempt to obfuscate the intent of the 2nd.

Califchris

"Yes, you agreed with me on a Harrison scenario but you put OTHER methods of protection as your FIRST choices over having a gun."

That should make no difference to the point. That that situation is the only one where a gun could come in handy as self defense.




"The house alarm can be disarmed by guys who know how to do it. Dogs can be poisoned or stabbed (the guy who went after Harrison was armed with a knife) to shut them up."

You ignore that the gun can jam, you may not get it loaded in time, the guy may see your gun and start shooting out of fear--even if you tie you lose. The point is---there are weaknesses in every defense--guns are not the perfect defense---or even the best.




"If some determined nutcase with a knife is going to try and attack me I'd prefer he doesn't get close enough to where I'd have to stop him by using 3 foot long baseball bat. I'd prefer a longer distance between me and his knife than just 3 feet. Besides, a bat can be wrestled away from you in a fight."

If your attacker gets through an alarm(you can't disarm the wireless ones that don't use phone lines), dogs, mace, Tazer and a baseball bat, you have pissed someone off to the max, and probably deserve the attack. Most random attackers would like the easieast target. They would prefer no one be home. They like houses with guns and no one home. How does your gun protect you then? If they see a sign for an alarm system, they'll move on to an easier tartgets--there are lots of them. Chances are if the attacker in your scenario got through all those obstacles, he wouldn't be bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Babuenthal

"Who does he think the militia was composed of?"

The militia was composed of men that were formed into a protecting military organization for the state. Today it is known as the State Militia or Guard.



"The people, who had to supply their own arms."

Did that mean women too?



"When the militia was called up, they wanted it well regulated. The militia wasn't a standing army."

What does well regulated mean to you?




"Since practically every citizen was armed at the time, "the right of the people"(everybody) meant just that."

You take a sentence fragment out of context and treat it as if it is the whole sentence. You twist the meaning.




"Without an armed citizenry, there would be no militia."

We have an armed militia without any help from an armed citizenry. That is reality.



"Only verbal gymnasts in the 21st century will attempt to obfuscate the intent of the 2nd."

How ironic that you would say such a thing after mangling the second amendment.

`"Without an armed citizenry, there would be no militia."

We have an armed militia without any help from an armed citizenry. That is reality.
=========
The militia is under the command of the government of which the founding fathers were very distrustful. The intent was to have the citizenry rise up against a tyrannical govt if one should sprout up.
=============



"Only verbal gymnasts in the 21st century will attempt to obfuscate the intent of the 2nd."

How ironic that you would say such a thing after mangling the second amendment.
=======
The second amendment is not mangled. Look at how it has been understood to read all these years. Look at the intent and quotes of those at the time it was implemented . How could all those who were there at the time misunderstand what was there and not correct it?
===============



Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Hey Marchmadness, what they need to do is ban guns from all schools......... Oh! Wait a minute! They have already done that. I'm tired of giving up my rights for some self justifying idiot that refuses to look at the real problem and refuses to look at the statistics that proove that GUN CONTROLS DO NOT WORK!!!! No matter how hard you try to get all the guns.... you can not! Even if they do get all the guns the felons will find another way to commit their stuppitity. Giuliani is nothing more than a snake. He is no more for gun rights than he was in NY!

The militia is under the command of the government of which the founding fathers were very distrustful. The intent was to have the citizenry rise up against a tyrannical govt if one should sprout up.
=============


The militia is under command of the government, but the government expects the militia to rise up against it if it if the government turns bad. The militia is the State Guard. It isn't you or me. In the sixties when they called out the Militia on rioters, they didn't call up ordinary citizens. They called the well regulated militia.---The Guard.
Did the militia include women? Is it valid today? Are you under command of the government. The militia is well regulated---do you think the PEOPLE should be well regulated. Facts are the militia is different from the general population. If they meant to say the general population should be well regulated, they would have said that. The militia never included women. Maybe women don't have the right to bear arms---they sure didn't have the right to vote.


"The second amendment is not mangled. Look at how it has been understood to read all these years. Look at the intent and quotes of those at the time it was implemented . How could all those who were there at the time misunderstand what was there and not correct it?"
===============

People see what they want to see. However, people who can read and understand the English language can see that the sentence is not about individual gun rights. Thwe only way it does stand for indiovidual gun rights is if you ignore half the sentence. This half:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,"


That is why people can bear arms---to protect the State. That is the reason for the second amendment. You ignore the first part of the sentence and only see the last part.I don't think the founding fathers meant to keep the whole population "well regulated". I don't think "militia" ever included old people, women, or children.

The reason for the second half of the sentence is the first half.

Patriot1

Of course gun controls work. Counties that have gun control laws have much lower death rates from handguns than we do.

You can't get rid of all the guns in a week or a year or ten years, or maybe even a hundred years. But if it takes 500 years it should be done. At least life will be safer 500 years from now.

This thread has shown that guns are no good for defense anyway. There is only one scenario where a gun could be used effectively in self defense.

That one scenario is that you are home and a burglar breaks in and gives you enough time to get to and load your weapon.

Other than that your gun is more likely to attract a break in when you aren't home from those who know you have it.

Even in that one scenario, there are better alternatives to having a gun.

Good mornin', BuffaloBob
I'm off to get my second cup of coffee. Lots to do today.

Calfchris

Me too, but I'll be around. Lots of yard work.

BB

Couldn't tear myself away just yet -- saw your last post

Other than that your gun is more likely to attract a break in when you aren't home from those who know you have it.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2007-09-22 02:39 PM

Then one would be wisest to keep one's mouth shut about owning one, right?

Calfchris

Me too, but I'll be around. Lots of yard work.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2007-09-22 02:41 PM

My computer sits on a table in the kitchen so I post as I run by. Never have much time to just sit non-stop at the screen.

Then one would be wisest to keep one's mouth shut about owning one, right?

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-22 02:42 PM

Absolutely. I would doubt that ones friends would break into the house, but friends often know about your guns because they probably have guns too, and friends talk. They also talk to other friends who talk to other friends. Some of the other friends might not be your friends.

Absolutely. I would doubt that ones friends would break into the house, but friends often know about your guns because they probably have guns too, and friends talk. They also talk to other friends who talk to other friends. Some of the other friends might not be your friends.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2007-09-22 02:48 PM | Rep

p.s. It's all wet outside on the ground. It RAINED here last night. Living in SoCal and not having had more than a drizzle in what seems like two years it's a big deal -- actually headlined our local news last night hahaha

BB
On my 3:01 p.m. post I first wrote the words "Point (responding to what you'd said) before I started babbling about the rain but for some reason those words disappeared when I posted them. all the more validation I need my coffee. later

I first wrote the words "Point (responding to what you'd said) before I ...

geeze, I can't even get two lousy words right. It's suppose to say "point made"

get me out of here - later

BB

You see the first half and ignore the second.

Some things were self evident at the time. If you weren't armed, you didn't eat.

.

Is it relevant today? It doesn't matter unless you want to amend the constituion.

Reading some of the Federalist papers on this subject may enlighten you as to what the founders intent was.

""To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence."


"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (56) James Madison FP 46

" "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787.



"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." --Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785.




"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves in all cases to which they think themselves competent..., or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.

I'd also be curious as to which other parts of the bill of rights are for the state and not individuals in your view.

I read and understand English just fine.

I also understand that if you don't like the intent of an 18th century document, your only constitutional remedy is an amendment.

The militia is the State Guard
Posted by Buffbob
======
Precisely the point. It is under control of the govt. Under the state in peace time and comes under the fed during war. They are not our saviours as you imply.
==========
People see what they want to see. However, people who can read and understand the English language can see that the sentence is not about individual gun rights.
posted by Buff BOb
==========
See what you want but look at how it was practiced. No one until recently questioned the argued point that everyone had the right to maintain and hold weapons based on the second amendment. If we can't agree on the words then surly we can agree on how it was practiced.

The militia is the State Guard
Posted by Buffbob
======
Precisely the point. It is under control of the govt. Under the state in peace time and comes under the fed during war. They are not our saviours as you imply.
==========
People see what they want to see. However, people who can read and understand the English language can see that the sentence is not about individual gun rights.
posted by Buff BOb
==========
See what you want but look at how it was practiced. No one until recently questioned the argued point that everyone had the right to maintain and hold weapons based on the second amendment. If we can't agree on the words then surly we can agree on how it was practiced.

Umm, the 2nd amendment has been held as a individual right buy local, state, federal and the supreme court for over 200 hundred years. As far as the National Guard, are you trying to imply that the 2nd amendment applies to them even though the guard did not exist until the early 20th century? With the ten original amendments to the bill of rights the first nine apply directly to the "people" the tenth applies to the states and the feds. The congress has no rights but powers delegated to them buy the constitution.

Oh and the national guard is an extention of the federal military. think about it they have:

Weapons paid for by the federal government!
Vehicles paid for by the federal government!
Bases built and paid for by the federal government!

Also, the National guard can be activated by the President and thus controlled by the federal government so are they really the militia that is supposed to protect us from the central gov't?