YEAH!

I think we are about to see the fastest tumble of an "eight point bump" by Bush yet!



"HAR~! HAR~!"

95% of the troops are American, 99% of the casualties are American and 100% of the troops in combat are Americans.

So, all in all a Mission Accomplished in international assistance in Iraq.

His contention that there is a coalition of 37 nations was an obvious attempt to mislead the American people. There may be somewhere near that number of nations with tiny numbers of troops but to pretend that they form a real coalition is completely dishonest.

Ah, the Deciderer has become the Obfuscator-in-Chief.
He may very well yet out-Clinton Clinton for parsing phrases.

completely dishonest.

Whoa! Hold on a sec. That's the President of the United States you're talking about. He's got at least one flag in the Oval Office and pictures of his wife, daughters, and dog on display. What are you, a card-carrying member of Al Qaeda. Traitor! Disgusting!
The Radical Right

The mission against Iraq in 1991 to eject it from Kuwait ended in only partial success, given that Saddam still butchered and stayed in power. Then Iraq II went on with 12 years of no-fly-zones and bombing attacks (5,000 Iraqis claimed killed?) like Operation Desert Fox. Then Iraq III ended with the fall of Saddam and his Baathists. Now we are in Iraq IV, the most ambitious of all the four wars to foster a constitutional replacement for Saddam's genocidal regime. So I'm afraid the war has been going on for 16 years through three administrations.

As far as WMD, the administration erred in privileging that casus belli -- since a majority of Senate Democrats voted for 22 others reasons to go to war in Iraq, from violations of the 1991 accords, to genocide, to sponsoring suicide bombing and harboring terrorists. They saw the same intelligence that the administration did. A review of Clinton-Kerry-Feinstein, etc statements concerning WMD do not differ much from those of Bush-Cheney.

So far a majority of Iraqis prefers Iraq of today to that of Saddam's, and still wish us to stay on to help train them to take over. Gen Petraeus's surge is not intended for perpetual occupation, but to provide a window of opportunity for Iraqis to gain the upper hand against the jihadists. We all wish we had avoided errors and mistakes, but I can't remember a war yet in which there were not lapses, most of which cost far more American lives that we have seen in Iraq.

Unfortunately you know nothing of history and so like most on the Left think that your age, your circumstances, your views are always unique and transcend some 231 years of our America past. Do you know anything about the winter of 1776? Or the summer of 1864, or Spring 1917? Or the Pacific in 1944, or the Bulge, or November 1950? There an "incompetent group of people" did not manage a war that lost 3,000, but almost 100,000 dead and wounded alone in 2 months in the Ardennes, or 50,000 casualties in 6 weeks on Okinawa.

We can imagine your sarcastic letters after the hedgerows, or the 1942 B-17 attacks, or Tarawa, or Choisun, but fortunately until this generation yours was always a minority view. Unfortunately wars do not work like your i-Pod.

It was the same one we had when Clinton sent our troops into Africa.

They saw the same intelligence that the administration did.

Only some of it. There are numerous articles here showing Bush received intel discounting the WMD bullshit but chose to ignore them and sit on them.

And nobody but Bush is responsible (The Buck Stops Here?) for the totally deluded aftermath of the invasion. Bush was cheerfully lead around by the nose by Iranian agents, and his equally deluded Administration. Every fucked-up situation in Iraq since the fall of Baghdad can be linked to a conscious decision made by Bush.

"Misleading", "Dishonest", how about crooked, lying POS.

With little effort most could make the list pages long.

If in fact he acted on "bad information" (not), then he is beyond doubt the dumbest president ever.

The only thing Shrubbie can do to improve his legacy is to resign.

Former: If you want to compare Bush's Excellent Iraqi Adventure with WWII, remember FDR beat both Germany and Japan, two actual powers, in less time than its taken Bush to get to today's bribing of sunni terrorists to leave us alone.
Bush is unable to defeat an opponent with no armor, air force or navy, in either afghanistan or Iraq.

And we never had to pay the SS to leave our troops alone, as Bush is doing in Anbar.

If you want to compare the two wars, tell me, if Bush had been president in 1941, would the Japan/Germany border be the Mississippi, or would Bush's grandpa's business ties with Hitler have helped them negotiate a bigger piece of the pie??

Former: If you want to compare Bush's Excellent Iraqi Adventure with WWII, remember FDR beat both Germany and Japan, two actual powers, in less time than its taken Bush to get to today's bribing of sunni terrorists to leave us alone.

yes we did beat both of these axis powers. But we bombed and killed EVERYBODY in the process. You have to destroy the will of the people to fight. The will of the people to think they have a chance. The will of the people to think their armies have a chance. To do this you carpetbomb cities,like Dresden, you set off icendiary bombs in cities built of wood and let 100,000 civilians die. That's how you win you go in full speed and shoot EVERBODY who won't give up.

Do you think the marines in the Pacific had a Gitmo? Nonsense wounded Japanese were taken care of with a .45 (or several) to the head.

All of you complaining about how long this has gone on need to realize that in order to win in 4 years you must kill everyone and deal with whatever is left.

The bottom line:

Bush is a pig-headed, arrogant,stubborn child who is going to have his way even if it results in the destruction of the Constitution and everything that has made this country what it is for the past 200 years .

How anyone could have watched this Fucking Idiot last night and not felt ashamed is beyond me. This isn't anything more than a little child trying to prove he's a man...and that "I'm a bigger man than my daddy because I attacked Saddam Hussein"

A self professed GOD Fearing Christian who obviously never comprehended a word Jesus Christ said.

Never in my life did I ever believe beyond my wildest dreams that I would ever see anything close to the sorry FUCK who now resides in the White House selling a bag of shit lies even a 4th grader wouldn't buy.

And Republicans Impeached Bill Clinton for a blowjob.

you must kill everyone and deal with whatever is left.

While looking for nonexistent WMD?

Lamest of the lame ducks...ever

Even if 36 other nations had a significant presence in Iraq, does that justify us being there?

If the heads of 36 other nations jumped off a bridge, would Bush jump off too?

If the heads of 36 other nations jumped off a bridge, would Bush jump off too?

Posted by Sully



One can only hope.

The fact that Bush is ridiculous is a surprise only to the hard-core "base", which would support him even if he were a once-AWOL, former coke-sniffing, alchol-abusing former cheerleader and academic C-student.

"The mission against Iraq in 1991 to eject it from Kuwait ended in only partial success, given that Saddam still butchered and stayed in power." - formerlib

FormerLib, I think you're cherry picking facts to suit your arguments. I'm not surprised, you're an American and can only see your country's history from the inside and it will always be filtered through your own political beliefs. What you should do is take a foreigners perspective and you'll get a much better picture on your video i-pod.

I think you have forgotten that the US supported Iraq and supplied many of the weapons used against civilians in Iran and Kuwait. I think you've also forgotten that Iraq has been occupied before since it was granted independence. The British were there during WW2 to support a monarchy that was faithful to Britain. After they left, the monarchy was overthrown and a Republic was formed.

By now you should be able to see a bit of the future. When the American army finally leaves or, more likely, is driven out then the Iraqi's will reform their own government in ways they see fit.

But that's the problem, isn't it. There are no guarantees that the new Iraqi gov't will want anything to do with the US. And that's a big problem. If you want Iraqi oil you'll either have to invade again or be the Iraqi's beatch.

But that's a bit of a digression. Iraq, itself, is an artificial nation created when the Ottoman Empire fell. The area has been in flux ever since. So, realistically, this isn't an extension of Bushdaddy's war to free Kuwait but instead, the last throes of World War One.

Old George can sure still piss a bunch of Liberals off. The Surrendercrats are in full retreat and George will get everything he wants, so much for the lame duck.

Why is it so painful for Liberals to see the United States win in Iraq?

ZULU we've been waiting and waiting for that to happen but it seems it just goes on forever and the "victory" gets farther and farther away. Now it is apparently not going to happen during Bush's presidency. I'm wondering if it will happen in my lifetime.

What's a US win look like, Zulu?

Why is it so painful for Liberals to see the United States win in Iraq?

What's painful is watching the war profiteers continue to rape the United States, on the backs of our soliers. The United States isn't winning anything in Iraq, but I bet a lot more money's been billed out on cost plus contracts since your post.

soliers should be soldiers

That Dumbya, in his last speech, was reduced to referring to ever shrinking "coalition of the billing, bribed and co-erced" as some kind of a justification fer his unholy war despite the reality of the situation, shows either an increased desperation on his part or a feeling by him that the average American is so stOOpid that they'll believe anything he sez even still.

Prolly a bit of both.

Desperate, cynical and stOOpid is no way to go through life, Dumbya.

Be Well.

What's a US win in Iraq look like, Zulu?

"I like giving the people of Iraq that chance....'

I, on the hand, abhor wars of attrition. Like this one. Especially when they hurt my country and my people.

So, let's put it to Zulu another way---At what point do we stop giving the Iraqis "chances"?

Let's bring it down to a concrete level for Zulu---How many times does your dog have to piss on your bedclothes before it becomes a problem for you?

This isn't an extension of Bushdaddy's war to free Kuwait but instead, the failure of Sultan Mahomet II to take Vienna."

Why stop there?

Folk figure the actual geographic location of the Garden of Eden was between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. ie Moden day Iraq.

Obviously, God is still pissed over that whole "apple incident"

I like giving the people of Iraq the chance, and I chaff at politicians in Iraq who are willing to take that chance away for political purposes

Spud also likes the idea of a free and stable Iraq.

That's why Spud thinks the US should rapidly and responsibly re-deploy out of that country.

The Pols in Baghdad are, in the main, BushCo stooges fom the INC.

You know, the guys who made up most of the lies that BushCo conflated into unassailable truths in order to launch this mad venture?

They have no legitimacy in the eyes of the general populace who see them, rightfully, as foreigners and usurpers there to steal the country's resources fer the benefit of the much hated Americans.

They quietly support their side of the civil war in progress while paying lip service to American demands that they stabilise the country into one that luffs America and is willing to let all their oil go to BigOil on terms written with a gun to their heads.

As someone pointed out earlier the battle fer hearts and minds in Iraq was lost practically the instant the invasion began and this situation has only gotten worse since this seemingly, eternal occupation began.

Be Well.

So, let's put it to Zulu another way---At what point do we stop giving the Iraqis "chances"?

Posted by Zed at 2007-09-14 05:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm going to make it very simple to understand Zulu, Zed.
If this was a democrats war he'd be comparing it to Vietnam. But since it's Bush's war he will take whatever W dishes out and smile.

I hate to say it, but it's truly that simple with some of these people.

Alex, I've long had Zulu's number. He belongs to that class of people, and I sincerely think George Bush is one of them, that has no real concern we win anything in Iraq.

This war satisfies very dark personal motivations for them. Because of that, they've threatened us with a forever war in Iraq from day one.

Bush reinforced that notion last night.

That concept of success - that's bothered me from day one. We defined goals for Iraq and we never asked them. We attempted, forcibly, to export Western values and expect them to be understood and embraced.

I can't imagine anything more insulting to an Arab.



ive been saying that for 4 y ears now.

truth hurts

A rational person would assume that if the surge were doing so damned well, Bush would be going to any length to capitalize and expand on that.

You know, help and follow accepted military doctrine for one god-damned minute.

But today Bush teases us with a troop reduction of 60,000 troops (by Christmas, natch) of 2008.

So, is Bush LYING about possible reductions (possible). Is he letting some local and arguably temporary successes go to his head (also possible).

Or, is it all just words from his point of view? Words, wordsd, words.

To me this is most possible at all. The point isn't to bring the bacon home form Iraq, the point is to find whatever combination of words gets him through the next day with his precious ego intact.

Last January after Bush ignored what the Iraq Study Group had recommended and escalated the war it became clear that the only thing that mattered to him was reaching the end of his presidency with the war still going on. That maneuver bought him eight months, now that he needs another extension he trots out the same old bullshit about progress being made towards a success he never defines, using Petraeus as his mouthpiece to do so. He'll get his extension because in our system nothing short of his and Cheney's forced removal can stop him until enough Republicans plus Lieberman accept that every day they allow this tragedy to continue only takes the eventual recovery from it further into the future.

There is no sign of that happening. Nor will there be when he repeats the process next spring or summer which will then get him effectively to the end of his presidency and his own private "Mission Accomplished". The fact that he will have destroyed the GOP and grievously damaged the military seems not to matter to him. More puzzling is why the GOP and to some extent the military is going along with it for at least another 16 months. Especially when many of our coalition partners left long ago with most of those remaining soon to do so.

"He will have destroyed the GOP...."

Paul Krugman's idea is, roughly agreeing with my own, that Bush wishes to extend the war past 2008 in hopes someone other than he can be associated with it's failure.

Hitler, a brighter man than Bush, still had enough ego to wish to see Germany destroyed if he couldn't win.

What's the GOP to Bush? Republicans are, after all, mere people.

Why is it so painful for Liberals to see the United States win in Iraq?

Well, let's see. We were told it would take six months and cost less than $50 billion. Anybody who thought otherwise was ridiculed and marginalized.

Since then, America has given Dub a blank check and supported him with little or no question. His six months have turned into four and a half years, and the cost has ballooned to over $500 billion dollars. Now, we're told that it will continue for at least another year and a half, with no real end in sight.

Only a retard would fail to question this.

I would love for us to win in Iraq. More importantly, I would love for us to HAVE won in Iraq, on anything approaching the timeline given. I just don't see how anything he or Petreaus has said will lead to victory. I want our forces freed up for other threats, our equipment replaced, and our alliances repaired. I really don't care if that hurts the shrub's feelings.

The whole concept of that is laughable.....

The 36/37 nation gambit is similar to the Petraeus gambit: No one with a lick of sense trusts a word that comes out of Bush's mouth, so Bush hides behind "Dave" and the paltry and dwindling "coalition of the willing"

Look, I'm not happy that we have a president that has fucked up so grandly and seems incapable of understanding the situation, but there it is.

I'm still waiting for the definition of "victory" when we have no ground to take, no leader and no government to topple. We have allowed a theist Shia government to be installed which is sympathetic to Iran which is also Shia.More Iraqis have been killed under our "liberation" than would have been killed under Sadam, virtually all the country is without electricity , a functioning economy, well over a million Iraqis have left and a many more are leaving while millions are still homeless with little water or adequate food etc etc etc. After four years Iraq is in worse shape now than before because of our being there and Bush says that success is just around the corner.