The NFL should have forfeited the game to the Jets. Instead, the cheaters will keep the win, and those cheated on will be hung with the loss.

If the Jets miss the playoffs, or home-field advantage because of it, it will only exacerbate this injustice. And home-field for any team is worth a lot more than $750,000.

How's this playing in the NY press?

My view:

Forfeit the game, fine the Patriots, and dock 'em the first round draft pick.

Then see if they try it again.

Here is a better Idear. Ban them for the rest of the season. Maybe THEN they will get the message.

Larry

Playing dirty -- not right.

Playing dirty -- not right.

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-14 02:09 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

Depends CalifChris. Depends on what TYPE of playing You are refering to.

Larry

Remember a few years back, when the Little League pitcher who was so much better than everyone else turned out to be...what, 18?

The team had to forfeit the games due to cheating.

Why do we let adults get away with stuff we wouldn't let our 6th graders skate on?

Because ADULTS are more immature than Kids??

Larry

You know I wonder if there was no REAL Money involved in Sports that the Governorship of these sports would be doing alot more punishing than they do today. It seems to me when You add REAL Money into the mix that the Governing body overlooks alot of Shenanigans.

Larry

As if I needed another reason to hate the Patriots.

Actually, that's exactly what I said when I learned they had signed Randy Moss. Now this. Evil sonsabitches.

okay but lets wait a minute....


people in all sorts of games try and get ahead by stealing signals and getting an edge.
the REALLY STUPID thing is that they did it against a team with a coach who had been a patriot for years and years and had to know they did it....

fine sounds pretty harsh depending on how they finish..


but here is the real point.....

more proof that the only real SPORTS with sportsmen playing it.......athletes in its purest sense.

they call rules on themsleves and thier oppenent and they dont have guaranteed contracts.

and most importantly to ALL OF US.........

they dont get the TAXPAYERS to spend millions and millions to build a golf course so some zillionare can make money off of them............

more proof that GOLFERS and GOLF.


damnit boy.......wake the hell up.

more proof that GOLFERS and GOLF.


damnit boy.......wake the hell up.

the man is amazing and he is the best and could be the best ever,...
but its the media that pisses me off...he can be two holes in front of the leader and he might be 4 or 5 back and there is great golf behind him and all they can talk about is tiger.......

love it when phil or others stare him in the eye and win.......its just not that often that it happens.

I also like it when sabatinni tries to talk smack about him.....
its like even at my place....there is a guy who has a MINUS 1 handicap......he is great, but I still get on the teebox and talk shit to him about kicking his ass.....he knows first of all thats its just smack...and 2nd of all........If I am going to just lay down for him and give in before we start.
why even play?

again......others sports do everything they can to get an edge and will take any rules 'fudging' they can.....golfers wont do that......

OOPS>....one exception...back in the days before the computer line calls in tennis......when someone thought his oppenent got a bad call...sometimes they would just stand there and let the serve go by........which is not the same thing, but close....

The fine is excessive, and taking away a draft pick is absolutely ridiculous. I do not even consider this cheating. It is the Jets responsibility to keep their signs a secret. If the Pats discover the key to their signs during the game, good for them. Every NFL playcaller now covers their lips when sending in the play to the QB. Would the NFL levy a fine, suspend, forfeit, or take away a draft pick for lip-reading?

Like Oohrah mentioned, if a runner is on second it is the catchers duty to switch the signs or hide them from the base-runner.

When players get traded/cut they spill the beans on their former team to their new one. The jOakland Raiders are legendary for their free agent interrogations. Everybody does it. Is it cheating to use that information in a game?

When Tampa Bay won the Super Bowl, their headcoach knew every sign and all the verbiage to his opponents offence because he wrote it. He would play QB at practice and imitate Rich Gannon at the line. His team destroyed jOakland because they failed to change/camouflage their system. Tampa Bay didn't cheat.

IF the Pats actually stole the defencive signals of the Jets. That is the Jets problem. You can hear defencive players call out the play presnap all the time. When a middle linebacker sees a formation or hears a call and yells out, "screen! screen!", is that cheating?

Not only was this not cheating, it didn't even give the Pats an advantage. If it had we would have seen significant offensive production in the second half compared to the first, and that is not the case.

This is just 'playa hatin'. The league is punishing the Pats for being smart and collecting WAY more first-day picks than other teams, and this gives them a way to take at least one back. They are also punishing them for all the 'crimes' they have been recently accused of by Baltimore, NY, Miami and others (i.e. stealing game plans off computers, bugging other teams offices and phones, chatting-up players under contract for other clubs...). The NFL couldn't bust them for those real instances of cheating, so they get 'em for this Micky Mouse crap.

okay r8r......I see your point and agree...mostly.

but what of the commissoner telling us that the pats were told to stop it and they didnt......

it seems that it was the filming that was the main point......

being across the field and all is one thing...or on 2nd base while the batter is there and all that.

but filming?

and could they also be in collusion with some other team during the playoffs perhaps.....maybe sell that tape to other teams.......

again...if they were told NOT to do that from the commiss.......well....they knew what could happen and they did it anyway.......that makes a difference to me.

Forfeit the game, fine the Patriots, and dock 'em the first round draft pick.

Wow. I agree with Danforth.

also I think Belichick should be suspended for 1/2 a season, and banned from the game for life if he's caught doing it again.

but what of the commissoner telling us that the pats were told to stop it and they didnt......

Teams film their games from several angles. "Coaches' tape", filmed from high in each endzone by each teams' camera crew is an invaluable resource for coaching staffs. If the Pats want to film a game they are playing in for whatever purpose, that is reasonable and common.

The Commissioner has no right to tell any coach what he can or can not film during his own game. More so, he doesn't have the power or the ability to know which of the 476 camera men on the sideline is stealing signals. He, like Mangini, Saban, Billick, and the other coaches that have accused the Pats in the past of cheating, is just making a guess as to what was going on. A guess that will cost Robert Kraft (b/ we all know Bill will not be forced to pay this out of his own pocket) $750,000 and a first day pick.

For the next Patriot's home game they should put a camera on the opposing head coach for the whole game and broadcast it on the JumboTron. That wouldn't break a single NFL rule, either.


"Hey! Randy Moss just burned every defencive back on the field on one 60 yard touchdown catch! They are cheating!"
-stupid New Yorkers

The permanent scar on the face of this "dynasty" is more damaging for Belicheat and the Pats than any fine or draft pick will do.

One less draft pick, big deal, thats an extra 20 million to spend on a free agent. If they really wanted to make it stick they would also take out the cap money for an average 1st rounder.

This is worse than Pete Rose, getting close to bonds levels of infamey. No one will ever see this Patriots team the same way again...

Go Peyton!

"The NFL should have forfeited the game to the Jets. Instead, the cheaters will keep the win, and those cheated on will be hung with the loss."

The Jets got their asses kicked and even they said they lost on their own. It wouldn't be fair to every other team in the AFC to give a win to a team that got its butt kicked.

Loss of a 1st rounder or a 2nd and a 3rd would affect the Pats for years to come. I would have suspended Behlichick too as fines are meaningless but the draft picks are a huge penalty.

"The fine is excessive, and taking away a draft pick is absolutely ridiculous. I do not even consider this cheating."

The NFL considers it cheating and warned every team about this before the season. The Pats were specifically warned in the past. And they were still stupid enough to do it against a former employee who knew exactly how they were cheating. So who cares what you think?

" If it had we would have seen significant offensive production in the second half compared to the first, and that is not the case. "

First of all, that is nonsense. Alot of people point to the fact that the Pats are a bad second half team as "proof" that the cheating didn't help. Huh? Maybe they'd of been an even worse second half team without cheating. Maybe being a bad second half team is the reason they were cheating as it helped them cling to leads they would have otherwise given up.

And if it wasn't an advantage and they were warned not to do it, then why did they bother? Obviously they believed it was an advantage and they would know better than you.

In typical liberal fashion, the first few posts of this retort speed to the edges of stupidity without looking back.

fact. there are so many fake signals thrown in with the real signals that the only people who can decifer them without spending hours upon hours watching the signal then the play following are the people the signal was intended for.

Those of you who take professional football so seriously would do well to examine your priorities.

"fact. there are so many fake signals thrown in with the real signals that the only people who can decifer them without spending hours upon hours watching the signal then the play following are the people the signal was intended for."

If they Pats gained no illegal advantage they wouldn't have risked getting caught after being told not to do it. You're talking out your ass.

Go Peyton!

Posted by Repugnant at 2007-09-14 11:59 AM | Reply | Flag:


Ahhhhhh...THERE it is!

You're a Peyton fan.

He's ok. He's no Tom Brady, but he's ok.

OK, so indie finally won a super bowl with that clown. Woop Woop.

Maybe being a bad second half team is the reason they were cheating as it helped them cling to leads they would have otherwise given up.

And if it wasn't an advantage and they were warned not to do it, then why did they bother? Obviously they believed it was an advantage and they would know better than you.

Posted by Sully at 2007-09-14 12:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

???


Many of the Pats most important victories have been when they were down a halftime.

"Many of the Pats most important victories have been when they were down a halftime."

I was addressing a point made by people who are acting as apologists for the Pats' cheating. Their "logic" goes that this cheating could only benefit the Pats in the 2nd half and that they are not a good 2nd half team, therefore they gained no advantage.

My point is that even if they were/are a bad 2nd half team, that doesn't disprove that their cheating gave them an advantage. If they are a bad 2nd half team, pershaps they'd be even worse if they hadn't cheated. If they're a good 2nd half team, perhaps they wouldn't be as good without cheating.

They obviously believed that they were using the information aquired through cheating to some sort of advantage, as it wouldn't be worth the risk otherwise.

If they Pats gained no illegal advantage they wouldn't have risked getting caught

No one knows what that intern's job was with the camera. We can speculate, but unless the Patriots admit to what that camera guy's duty was, we just don't know. Belichick's statement implies that the Pats considered what they were doing to be legal. They didn't try to hind the camera in the stands, coaching booth, or camera boxes. They put him on the sideline, wearing a Patriot's Press Pass for all the world to see. NFL/Jets security allowed him on the field with the camera. And lets not forget; the only reason they got "caught" is because the Jets were "spying" on the Pats' sideline and noticed him! Those nasty cheating Jets, having the nerve to watch the other teams sideline during a game!

Also, had the Pats filmed the Jets' coaches with the endzone cameras they are allowed to control, this would all be moot.

Goodell got pressured by other owners to come down hard, specifically on the Pats, whose sneaky tricks the last few seasons have ruffled many a feather in the NFL. Losing a first round draft pick over a violation that even the Jets admit played no role in the game is insane.

The year my Broncos won their last SuperBowl, they cheated the cap by writing contracts to players that extended long after their playing days. We were still paying some of those guys two years after they retired and counting them as practice squad players. We won 17 games that season with cooked books and the fine was 100K. The Pats lose 750K and the 26th best player in college football for watching the opposition's sideline for less than one quarter in a game they had won before halftime?

Their "logic" goes that this cheating could only benefit the Pats in the 2nd half and that they are not a good 2nd half team, therefore they gained no advantage.

I made no assumption of the Pats second half performances in the past. I just look at the stats. Specifically the offensive stats from this game.

If the Pats were stealing signals from the Jet defence, and stealing these signs gives an great advantage like you believe, you would think there would be some sort of tangible evidence on the field, right?

It isn't there.

where've you been, r8rh8r???

"If the Pats were stealing signals from the Jet defence, and stealing these signs gives an great advantage like you believe, you would think there would be some sort of tangible evidence on the field, right?

It isn't there."

Not necessarily. The quality of play on the part of both teams in each half also affects this. Stats never tell the whole story. It could be that in some games the advantage played a role and in others, it did not matter. The Pats were clearly the better team and I doubt the Jets would have made it much closer if the Pats were not breaking the rules (which makes Behlichick's decision very confusing). That doesn't mean that if the Pats were allowed to cheat against the Chargers this Sunday, it wouldn't play a role in close game.

My main point is that the Pats, by their actions, obviously felt that this gave them some sort of advantage and that it was significant enough to be worth the risk of getting caught. And that risk was pretty big considering they had been warned and that Mangini likely knew exactly what they were doing. The NFL, by making this type of behavior illegal, obviously feels that it gives one team an unfair advantage. These people are all very qualified to know better than you or I.

Bottom line is that they knew not to do it and chose to do it anyway. If you don't punish them for breaking the rules, then how can you punish players for doing things such as taking steriods? Having double standards is the same as having no standards.

The NFL couldn't bust them for those real instances of cheating, so they get 'em for this Micky Mouse crap.

Posted by r8rh8r at 2007-09-14

The problem here is that they were using a vidoe camera on the sideline to do it. By NFL rules that is illegal, so the Pats got caught cheating.

You also mentioned one player going to another team and spilling secrets. In the coorporate world that will get you jail time. That is called Coorporate espienoge (pardon the spelling). Why should that same rule not apply here? When a player does that they are creating an unfair advantage and costing their old team money.

BL2,

they dont get the TAXPAYERS to spend millions and millions to build a golf course so some zillionare can make money off of them............

You're kidding, RIGHT?

There are taxpayer subsidized MUNICIPAL golf courses all over this country, with developers making fortunes building around them.

These municipal courses are significantly subsidized by people who DON'T PLAY GOLF!

You rarely say anything I agree with, but that had to be one of the most ignorant things I've ever seen you say!

damnit boy.......wake the hell up.

Except for spelling ... you got THAT right!

"To make it clear, the Pats should be punished for putting a camera at field level instead of in their coaching booth or stadium box. And unless that camera was supplying bootleg coverage of the NFL to Al Jazeera, losing a first round draft choice is overkill to the nth degree for such an offence."

I think the league made it pretty clear that using cameras in this way would not be tolerated. I understand that you disagree with this opinion and that it is very hard to quantify, but the NFL obviously considers this behavior a geniune competitive balance issue. And competitive balance is very important to the NFL. IMO, the Pats forced the league to bring the hammer down by flagrantly violating the rule despite the warnings. Goodell's policy all along has been to hand down major penalties for violation of league policy, often before all the facts are out, so this is very consistent with everything he's done so far.

"Now, if stealing signals is so far "outside the accepted tactics" of pro football, then why does EVERY coach in the league cover their mouths when they speak? And why the hell doesn't the league do something about it?"

It seems to me that the league makes a huge distinction between using the naked eye or binoculars and using video equipment in this regard and the warning was specific.

forfeit a game? doesn't matter because the lions are headed to the superbowl. 14 win season ahead. Mark my Words.