His Darwin Award will be awarded posthumously. Remember kids: ya can't snort Drano or shoot up Windex.

Heroin is a big hole in the sky.

The drug is mass produced in Mexico and smuggled across the border in increasing quantities.

Smuggled across our WIDE OPEN BORDERS -- thanks to Presidente Jorge "I can't help the Mexican drug cartels enough" Bush.

Dutch stole my thunder. My retort was going to simply be:

Evolution in action

Heroin is bad shit.

Problem with that crap is once you try it you can't stop until your dead. Nothing should be that adictive.

Just say No, Just say Hell No, Just never never never touch that shit.

Perhaps we should say this is ggod as it gets rid of the weakest in our society. Kinda like selective breeding. A large majority of the assholes go away.

If it was up to me we would have government subsidised drug houses. You want drugs? Turn over all your assets and enter the house. The government gives you anything you want and as much as you want. The catch? You can't leave the house. Eventually you leave in a body bag. Drug dealers are screwed out of profits and we keep the hop heads off the street. The crime rate gets lowered. China used to do that many years ago, they were called opium dens.......

Perhaps we should say this is ggod as it gets rid of the weakest in our society. Kinda like selective breeding. A large majority of the assholes go away.

Not all, it seems.

Teens experiment with drugs. For better or worse it is part of growing up in this country. That teens are dying due to bad heroin is not something to take pleasure in.

Moder8-
At least one asshole(kenoosh) does seem to find pleasure in it.

Moder8-
Oh. Correction, at least two. I unfortunately must add Goatman to the list of those who find humor and/or justice in the death of adolescents.

It's a cheap speedball, and incredibly addictive.

Perhaps Goatman, Dutch, and Kenoosh would like to honor the parents of the dead kids with a Darwin Award. I'm sure you could find their names in the phone book and send them a letter explaining how comical you thought the whole bit was, as it is evolution in action (in your letter, Goatman, you should explain that dutch thought of that funny bit first).

If the parents of these desperate hipsters had spent one quality second infusing their kids with one iota of common sense, perhaps Junior wouldn't have found it all that attractive to stick a fucking needle in his arm to show the world how cool he was. They knew the risk. They all crossed the rubicon of whether to do the drug or not. Willingly repeating that kind of destructive behavior will eventually screw your pooch.

And I won't speak for the intent of others, but my statement was not an idle post meant for some kind of mean spirited snark. Drugs are just one of this society's unintentionally effective ways of culling the weak. Deal with it. I have. I've gone to the funerals of way too many friends over the past 40 years who thought they could control their habits. Some people got smart, but a sizeable number wound up on the coroner's table like these kids.

I have no sympathy for junkies or clowns who do methamphetamine. None. So please save your pollyanna sanctimonious emotional blackmail for somebody that might buy into it.

Dutch-
re: perhaps Junior wouldn't have found it all that attractive to stick a fucking needle in his arm to show the world how cool he was.

You didn't even read the article.

But why don't you go spit on the parents in person?

re: Drugs are just one of this society's unintentionally effective ways of culling the weak. Deal with it. I have.

And how do we rid ourselves of know-it-all assholes such as yourself? I assume that you are "the strong", eh? So I'm sure you can take the criticism.

They knew the risk. They all crossed the rubicon of whether to do the drug or not. Willingly repeating that kind of destructive behavior will eventually screw your pooch....

I'm glad when I was in high school drugs were nowhere near as prevalent as they are now. Peer pressure can be intense and it takes some people a lot longer to mature and grow up than others. In the meantime you can end up dead.

They were children, Dutch.

No, they were "weak" and to be culled from the herd and destroyed, cooper.

How dare you attempt to put a human face on Dutch's soulless darwinism.

I've gone to the funerals of way too many friends over the past 40 years who thought they could control their habits. Some people got smart, but a sizeable number wound up on the coroner's table like these kids.

Well, if they were 'friends' with you that was one strike against them already, dutch.

Alexandrite-
I know that is what I hope from my "friends":

"Well, he was weak. Have a thigh..."

I would take the time to explain what a living hell drug addiction is to you fluffy neophytes, but you guy's reek of co-dependency and enablers like you are part of the problem that keeps kids like these unfortunate souls dropping like flies. I can't cry for them. I'm all cried out.

If you are doing narcotics, stop. If you love your families and your friends, you will find a way to stop.

If you know someone who is doing narcotics, if you love them, truly love them, you will MAKE them stop because once they are gone, it will haunt you for the rest of your life that you could have prevented their meaningless deaths.

I can tell you two gentlemen have not had the experience of watching someone you love disappear in front of you one fix at a time. Again, save it for the choir.

dutch-
Yes, you cry for them:

His Darwin Award will be awarded posthumously.

Drugs are just one of this society's unintentionally effective ways of culling the weak. Deal with it.

Dutch-
re: I can tell you two gentlemen have not had the experience of watching someone you love disappear in front of you one fix at a time. Again, save it for the choir.

What you "can tell" is that neither of us have had the last bit of humanity and compassion and empathy stamped out of us to the extent that we would regard the overdose deaths of teenagers as an appropriate "culling of the weak".

I don't want to give the farm away, but my revulsion to that drug in particular comes from first-hand experience. It took someone else dying to bring me back from the abyss, and there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about her.

So again, because you didn't seem to catch it first time I said it, heroin is a big giant hole in the sky. Until you have done the drug and flirted with the blissful pull of it's event horizon, you will have no idea how uninformed and hysterical your huffy retorts to me were. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried, but it's probably just a matter of who has the closest perspective.

I was tempted to just let this de-evolve into the usual name calling and sexual orientation speculation that so popular around here, but you guys got all lathered up to play your "shocked liberal" cards, so I understand. The liberal in me sincerely hopes you never have to experience what I have.

Dutch -
Maybe you should be less concerned with assumptions about people you've never met, and more curious about your declaration that kids dying from overdoses is nature's way of "culling the weak".

What I get from you, Dutch, is that you've done dope and of course no one here has. You've lost friends, and of course no one here has.

What would make you say such a thing except a self-absorption and ego that would also allow you to not only rain contempt upon children who made a mistake (much like your mistakes), but also on their parents. "Culling the weak", indeed.

An apology, not an NA pity/hard life rant is what's required.

Apologize? Not a fucking chance. I shared something really personal with you that I swore I'd never put here and you pissed on it.

I will, however, watch what I post up here very carefully to keep in mind that there are some really uninformed, foolish feel-good pollyannas running around here that are equally full of shit as the howling poop throwers on the other side. Lord knows I wouldn't want to piss anybody off.

I have no tolerance for junkies, tweekers and crack heads. Don't like it? Blow me.

Heard a Meth lab near Colton in Lubbock got busted.

Coincidence?

"It is fact that the Taliban had almost completely irradicated the poppy production in Afghanistan before the invasion."

We know, Jeff. The Taliban was wonderful for Afghans. Not only did they eradicate poppy production, they eradicated booze, women in school, ancient art, womens' exposed faces, mens' hairless faces, other religions, and just freedom in general. Great bunch of people, that Taliban. I bet you're upset that we don't have a Taliban candidate running for president in the U.S., aren't you?

Being a Darwinist myself....

However, since these are minors, I will not blame the dead themselves, no. I blame the parents for not educating the dead on the dangers.

Also, being a Libertarian (there's another dirty word, I know), I think this stuff should be decriminalized. Yes, all of it. People will die because of their own stupidity as a result. Again, the minors (who know no better) who would die as a result are, again, not to be blamed, but the parents.

Now, those over 18 who would expire as a result of their own stupidity... sorry, not my problem. Personal responsibility means a great deal to me.

Oh yes, before Cooper goes off about this post, let me advise him that I'm one of the working poor, and that's due to my own brand of stupidity (credit cards... yes I am a moron when it comes to that sort of thing, I will admit readily). But, since I am a Darwinist, I cannot ask for help, as that would go against my own personal philosophy. So I feel quite comfortable berating other morons for their own stupidity, since I berate myself for the same damn thing all the time.

DUTCH

I applaud your getting yourself clean. Not an easy thing to do.

Sorry about your friend's death.

JESTGETTINALONG

That was quite a leap there. To me it appeared that Jeff's post was merely pointing out that the 'war on drugs' was going about as well as the 'war on terror'

"That was quite a leap there. To me it appeared that Jeff's post was merely pointing out that the 'war on drugs' was going about as well as the 'war on terror'"

It may have appeared that way to you, AU, but the sentence below was his next statement. Seems to me he was kinda saying, "The Taliban is better than Bush." Which, by the way, is in keeping with MOST of his posts.

"It is fact that poppy production in Afghanistan is as high as its ever been.
Yep definately Bush's fault!" Posted by JEFFNDENMARK

LetUsReason,

For the most part I agree with you but somewhat like Dutch I have personal fealings on this one that are hard to get past.

The effects of Heroin are fealt by more than just the user. The fact that I am raising a kid who is not mine is a testament to that. I don't know if there is anything the government can do but when it comes to heroin if there is any part they can do to explain to kids just how fucking bad this shit is I'll gladly pay my taxes for it.

Dutch thanks for sharing some insights with us.

"I don't know if there is anything the government can do..."

There isn't, really. You know, back in the forties and fifties there was no big government education plan regarding the evils of cigarettes, but nobody over the age of ten DIDN'T know the hazards of smoking. Remember the "coffin nails" nickname? EVERYBODY knew nicotine was addictive regardless of what the producers said. These teens in Texas KNOW the hazards of heroin and I guarantee that they know THIS stuff is especially hazardous but they'll continue to use it. They think they are immortal and SOME will ignore the hazards and die as a result. Just like SOME kids will jump off a roof with a dishtowel cloak to fly like Superman. It's tragic, but it's a fact of life.

I don't want to give the farm away, but my revulsion to that drug in particular comes from first-hand experience. It took someone else dying to bring me back from the abyss, and there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about her.

Sorry about your friend, Dutch.

JestGettinAlong

If we, the mightiest military in the world, can't quell opium poppy production that funds terrorists, why aren't we? We've spent countless billions helping Columbia squash narco terrorism, and the FARC (drug funded rebel army in Columbia) isn't attacking us on our soil or in the battlefields of Afghanistan, but the Taliban is.

I mean, there are large areas in Afghanistan we STILL haven't gained control of in the south, with the populous afraid to take sides lest the Taliban regain total control, and in the north the poppy fields experiencing record productivity fund Taliban activities all over Afghanistan aimed at us and Afghani citizens in direct opposition to our goal of restoring peace and rooting out the Taliban - which we still haven't done successfully nearly 6 years since invading.

So, I guess my question again is why haven't we put a stop to the poppy production when it's very existence is funding those directly detrimental to our efforts in Afghanistan?

ANYONE IS BETTER THAN BUSH!
Haven't you figured out that the Bush family are a bunch of mobsters. Orginized crime family number 1..
The Taliban are Sunday school boys compared to the war criminal Bush/Cheney cartel.
And since when is it the USA's business to be the world police?
And if you say since 911 you will just be showing your ignorance.
You brainwashed sheeple need to snap out of this Bush=patriotism mindset. You're being suckers.


Ron Paul and the CONSTITUTION all the way baby!

Since when has the Taliban attacked the US on American soil?

All of the so called 911 terrorists were Saudis.
It is funny thought that none of the so called terrorists were on any of the fight lists. I wonder how 14 muslims snuck past security and on to the airplanes without being caught. And then somehow fooled NORAD for an hour so they didn't launch jets in time to stop them. Oh, That's right! Dick Cheney was in charge of Norad that day and he was running mass terrorist drills of planes flying into the twin towers at the time of the attacks.

Jest,

Your right of course but doesn't mean I have to like it.

AU,

Well we took our forces and split them before the job in Afganistan was done. Not only that but the FARC are fighting for money not religion. The people who are not getting the money are more than happy to help fight. The Taliban gets religious nuts as well as thouse making the loot.

"So, I guess my question again is why haven't we put a stop to the poppy production when it's very existence is funding those directly detrimental to our efforts in Afghanistan?"

How do you propose we do that? I guess we could be really Draconian and kill ANYONE who produces poppies and ANYONE who uses poppy products which would REDUCE production, but anytime there's demand for something, someone will produce it. If it was all legal, perhaps it could be somewhat controlled, but you AIN"T gonna eradicate drugs. Didn't work for booze either, did it? Just look at all the crime Prohibition fostered.

TAO

Of course you're right, but my point was that the opium poppy fields should have been destroyed as they are funding god-knows-who shooting at us in Afghanistan.

The fact that there is a record crop is just plain contrary to our goals in Afghanistan.

I won't even mention the 'war on drugs' (what a joke)

Of note, the marijuana of these days is not what it used to be. I haven't had the stuff in about a decade until an in-law introduced me to his variety. He smokes it on a regular basis because he says it controls his hyperactivity. What harm could it be? Right? Well after about six inhales I started to feel a calm coming up from my legs. When it peaked, I had fluids coming out of every orifice of my body and I blacked out. Never again.

"All of the so called 911 terrorists were Saudis."

Not ALL of them, Jeff.

"I wonder how 14 muslims snuck past security and on to the airplanes without being caught."

Actually, there were 19, Jeff. But you have me confused. Are you now saying this was a Saudi or a Muslim conspiracy? You had me convinced it was a Bush/Cheney/Rove conspiracy before. Damn, I wish you'd make up your mind and quit confusing all of us.

JestGettin

Ever heard of burning the fields? Afghanistan is a rather small country with poppy production limited to the north.

Face it, we're just placating the warlords in the north, and they're selling the opium and heroin. That money goes to ends that are not in sync with our interests in Afghanistan - buying bullets and RPG's and nasty things like that.

The REAL problem is what someone else pointed out - Bush split our efforts in pieces by invading Iraq, and so Afghanistan still suffers from a myriad of problems including terrorism because we did.

Ray

Not only is the pot stronger in THC content, but I've read that motorcycle gangs that grow large quantities under grow lights spike it by sprinkling small quantities of crystal meth on the leaves before bundling it up.

"Ever heard of burning the fields? Afghanistan is a rather small country with poppy production limited to the north."

They'll just plant more. Get serious, you're never gonna COMPLETELY eradicate poppy production. Turkey eventually recognized that.

"Turkey's successful transition from a culture of widespread, unregulated poppy cultivation to a licensed, controlled system of poppy cultivation for the production of medicines provides an interesting model for Afghanistan. Analogous to the current situation in Afghanistan, in the 1960s Turkey was one of the world's main opium producing countries. After several years of tense negotiations, political pragmatism prevailed, resulting in Turkey switching from unregulated crop growing to licensed poppy cultivation for the production of medicines. The Turkish political dynamic was such that poppy farmers' interests were key to the stability of the country. When Turkey deemed total eradication both technically and socially impracticable, the US and the Turkish Governments worked together to implement a poppy licensing system for the production of opium-based medicines, as an alternative means of bringing poppy cultivation under control."

Jest,
Im just stating the facts.
Its not my fault that you are in denial and can't except the facts.

None of the terrorists were on any of the flight lists. Why?
Cheney had taken control of Norad that day. Why
They were running drills of airplanes hitting the twin towers, yet Bushco said that they couldn't imagine airplanes hitting the towers. Why?
Those are all facts. So I guess if a person states the facts they are a conspiracy nut?

I grow my own in my greenhouse. I know exactly what Im smoking. It helps my arthritis.
Finally! After all of these years I finally have a medical reason for smoking it!

JestGettin

Within a year after our invasion of Afghanistan, efforts were made to convince poppy growers to shift to other cash crops. What happened is that the funding for that effort was cut off and shifted to Iraq. ANOTHER case of Iraq draining resources that would have been better used elsewhere.

Turkey is a sovereign nation where we have a limited presence. Do we or do we not control Afghanistan? Do we ever plan to have the country under OUR control? If not, why? Isn't that what the U.S. and many other countries have been trying to do for almost 6 years?

When the poppy production in question is DIRECTLY funding those who are thwarting those efforts, and we have the personnel to do it, WHY shouldn't we make every effort to eliminate those fields? We have the equipment to do it. Many nations have sent troops.

The problem is that we are undermanned in Afghanistan thanks to the war in Iraq.

Another problem is that the poppies are not only killing troops in Afghanistan, but kids in Texas. Know what I mean?

I've read that motorcycle gangs that grow large quantities under grow lights spike it by sprinkling small quantities of crystal meth on the leaves before bundling it up.

Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2007-09-09 09:29 AM

That might explain my reaction. I've had marijuana enough times to know how it feels. This was like another drug. And to think that my in-law's body likes this stuff is beyond my comprehension. Do you know if crystal meth can calm down a hyperactive person?

I know that they give kids ritalin for hyperactivity. And ritalin is an amfetamin.

"Do you know if crystal meth can calm down a hyperactive person?"

RAY

Quite the opposite. I had a roomate who paid me his rent one time in the late 70's with meth. I'd never heard of it before. It didn't calm me down at all, I hated how it made me feel, and I flushed the rest down the toilet.

JEFFINDENMARK

Kids have opposite reactions to many drugs.

"Know what I mean?"

OK, you win.....it's Bush's fault, all of it, the kids dying in Texas too..

Jest

Uh, we were talking about poppies.

But, since you mention it, yes, our invasion of Iraq has cost us terribly in Afghanistan in any number of ways.

If you haven't smoked pot in a long time and if you are a bit over weight, or out of shape you can have a adverse reaction. High blood preasure, rapit heart rate. ad that to the pot effect of slight paranoia, or freaking out. It could give you a bad trip. But foaming at the mouth or other physical disfunctions I have never heard of that.
I had a party a couple of month ago, and one of my Danish non-smoker friends was pretty drunk and he decided he was going to get in the smoker circle with my stoner friends, and he smoked to much and started freaking out, then he passed out on my living room floor. It scared me! I thought he had a heart attack. But one of my friends is a nurse, and she did a pulse check and so on. He was fine. One of my friends and I carried him to the nearest sofa and gave him a blanket and pillow. The next day he was fine. Just embarrassed.

"I had a party a couple of month ago, and one of my Danish non-smoker friends was pretty drunk and he decided he was going to get in the smoker circle with my stoner friends, and he smoked to much and started freaking out,...."

During this party, did you or any of your "stoner friends" come up with the TRUE fate of the passengers of the plane that crashed in PA? Are they being held hostage somewhere? Oh yes...maybe one of you had a vision of the source of the missile that hit the Pentagon?

jestgettinalong,
These are facts....deal with them....

I didn't foam Jeffn. Throwing up and severe diarrhea. My body was trying to get rid the stuff. I blacked out once before in my life from an injury. It was a similar state of shock. Imagine sitting on a picnic bench feeling woozy. Then all of a sudden you're flat on your back on the ground with no memory of the fall. I had none of the effects I've normally gotten from marijuana, like paranoia and giddiness. I have a very healthy body that was telling me this stuff was toxic.

Jeffn you bring to mind that I was doing a lot of drinking that day. It might have been the combination, though I stretch out my drinks. It was over an hour between the last drink and the marijuana and I felt sober.

Ya, If you are not used to smoking and you blend with booze. Bad combo....

I hope your brother in law isnt smoking crank laced weed. That will make him an old man fast.

Ray I did get some weed spiked with PCP once.

That freaked me out pretty badly. Other than that time I have never had a bad experiance with pot and I smoke exclusivly KB, which has about twice the THC content of "schwag".

Regular pot would definatly help a hyper-active person, the only way crystal meth would help a hyper active person is it might allow a focus to the hyperness. Friend of mine used to keep it around for doing chores around the house. Imagine painting your entire living room in about 2 hours. When we bought this place he offered me some to make moving day go a bit faster. I passed on it was a bit afraid, I have an afinity for stimulants and was afraid I would be an instant adict.

Throwing up on Pot though, now that is just plain wierd. You know that one of the medical uses is to calm the stomach of AIDS and Chemo paitents so they can KEEP food down.

It also helps with pain managment for MS.

Ya, If you are not used to smoking and you blend with booze. Bad combo....

I've done it several times in the past with no ill effects. The effects of the alcohol had worn off by the time I had the pot.

I hope your brother in law isnt smoking crank laced weed. That will make him an old man fast.

He claimed that the pot was a very pure grade, whatever that means. Jeffn?

Throwing up on Pot though, now that is just plain wierd.

That's what I thought. In the past I would get very thirsty the next day. This stuff had no after affects.

Tao - I can see why pot interests you. But keep in mind that you are only treating the symptom. Nutrition is the only way you can correct whatever chemical imbalances you have.

Ray,

I know it and I actualy don't smoke much anymore cause it's too damn expensive but when I'm having a bad day it's about the only thing that works. It also makes it easier to stick a friggen 1.25" needle in your leg if your so stoned you don't have to think about sticking a friggen 1.25" needle in your leg.

Since we last spoke on it I have added a stronger B-Complex vitamin to my diet. I have also started taking calcium which helps with the muscle cramping somewhat. I have switched to those high omega-3 eggs and have started eating flax seeds (also good for omega-3's) Since fish oil is out for a vegetarian those seemed my best option to increase omega-3's.

I haven't noticed any particular change other than more relaxed without weed thanks to the calcium and higher energy levels thanks to the B-Complex. However I don't expect to see major overnight changes so I'm still hopefull and worst case Omega-3's are still good for you and so is B and Calcium so even if it's not helping MS it's helping me in general.

Now if they were to legalize medical marijuana and bring that cost down you can belive I would treat the crap out of my symptoms.

Life is tough.... You wanna play, you gotta pay. I don't feel sorry for people who have drug problems. They made the choice to do it so tough beans. Boo hoo, whaa whaa. Blow your damn nose and dry your eyes. Take responsibility for your actions. I don't give a rats ass about you.....

Kenoosh,

Ease up, yes if you play you pay but what about families and friends they didn't choose to play but still pay? Frankly having had to deal closely with heroin adiction I mostly agree with you but there is also no need to be a hard ass dick about it either.

Oh Ray I have also decided that the Natioal MS society is nothing more than a shill organization for doctors.

Anything they say about any alternative treatments is either questionalable or down right negative. I have not found one alternative that they recomend. Even B12 a known neurological enhancement they can not even recomend except for limited use.

here is a quote from them on antioxidants: "The safety of taking antioxidants for people with MS has not been established either. One small, five-week study indicates that antioxidants are safe for people with MS, but the study is too small and short to be conclusive."

I swear the more I read of their stuff the less I would ever suport them.

Sorry tao, I never had a break and I don't give them. My mother was an alcholic and I had to learn to write her off. I learned the hard way. Life and most people in it suck.....

They were children, Dutch.


Who gives a fuck?

I'm supposed to feel sympathy and sadness for some dipshit kid who gives into peer pressure and wants to like all the other fuck ups?

My father snorted cocaine, sold pot and drank like a fucking fish. You know what he does now? He blames everyone else for his problems. He can't seem to put it together that he fucked up his own life.

This kid's death saves the rest of us from A) Having to pay for his incarceration at some later point. B) Keeps him from killing someone while intoxicated or high.

No, I don't feel sympathy for this kid. I kinda doubt his family does either. If your kid is a drug addict, you don't need a fucking manual to figure it out.

AXIOM and KENNOSH

ACOA or Al-Anon? Might help you get rid of some of the damage your parents left you with..... Just a suggestion

Axiom, I know where your comming from......

I discovered all of Al-non's phychology on my own at the age of 12. I'm 62 years old now and my mother's dead. My family and friends think that it's remarkable that knowing my life and what I've been through, I've turned out to be a very decent person. The "damage" goes away when you learn to cope. You learn, on your own, that it's not your fault and you can't make other people be what you want. They have to find it on their own. Just like me......

KENOOSH

Glad you've had a good life.

It was a great moment when I forgave through knowledge and understanding and crossed the line from coping to healing the soul wounds that situation left in my life as a child, and which affected my outlook on life well into adulthood.

My step father was a great man. My father nearly ruined my life. I'm glad I was able to find heartfelt forgiveness for him through finally seeing him as a sick person with a disease rather than a menace who wouldn't quit.

Back in that day and age they didn't know what we know now, nor was help readily available for people suffering from the disease of alcoholsim - and in your case, especially for women.....

Anyway, don't mean to pry....but, I do understand all too well what you went through.

It was unfortunate but my mother could not handle my father's death at 42 from lung cancer. She turned alcoholic because she did not know how to cope with the loss and raise a child. I forgave her when I was a teenager because she didn't know any better and all attempts to help her failed. In the end I had to leave home at 18 and go on my own. A stepfather took care of her but eventually left her on of all days. Christmas Eve. I know it sounds like a soap opera but it's true. She passed away about twelve years ago from the complications of diabetes. The step father was no better as he often beat her and drank heavy himself. Sad sad story. He's gone now as well from a heart attack. I take each person on their own merit and when they have a lot of problems that resist change I move on. I feel I'm OK, life could be worse.......

Thanks for letting me bend your ears.....it's good therapy to talk about it. It shows acceptance......

Throwing up on Pot though, now that is just plain wierd.

That's what I thought. In the past I would get very thirsty the next day. This stuff had no after affects.

Posted by Ray at 2007-09-09 10:57 AM | Reply

Don't forget the munchies.

I>
Thanks for letting me bend your ears.....it's good therapy to talk about it. It shows acceptance......

Posted by Kenoosh at 2007-09-09 02:17 PM |

No problem.

KENOOSH

You're more than welcome. I'm more glad that you understood your mother's situation. Boy, she didn't exactly have a peachy time. You're a good man to understand, forgive, accept, and move on. People like us who've been through a lot of adversity are better off than most I think for not only surviving life's hard lessons, but from learning from them as well how to forgive and love in spite of. We're more grateful for what we DO have too, instead of being caught up in what we DON'T have.

All the best to ya man. You're a winner. You mom and you will have a lot to talk about the next time you see her.......

:-)

Americanunity, I appreciate the positive comments and I hope things have worked out for you as well. We all live and learn.....every day......

The latest victim was 18-year-old Scott Clark, a volunteer for a local animal charity and a fitness fanatic.

"Fitness fanatic"???? & Heroin user?

I guess their definition and mine seem to differ.

Of note, the marijuana of these days is not what it used to be. I haven't had the stuff in about a decade until an in-law introduced me to his variety.

Ray, the marijuana of today is not icrementally more potent than the marijuana of a decade or two ago. There may be more good weed today than there was years ago but the potency of the good weed has changed relatively little.

As far as lacing MJ with coke, crank, H, PCP, etc., that sound utterly ridiculous to me. Why wouldn't a drug dealer just sell the other drugs outright and make a hell of a lot more money?

Potency, contents of product, are talking points from the failed War on Drugs policy.

Also Ray, if you smoke good weed after a ten year absence, you should store yourself in a cool, dry place away from direct sunlight for a couple of hours:) It also lowers your blood sugar level or so I'm told (hence the munchies).

Jay

Thanks for the info. I still can't understand why my body reacted so badly to it. Is there such thing as a concentrated form?

The only time my body has ever had a reaction like that, it was associated with (among other things) excessive heat.

concentrated form?

Hash perhaps? I've never tried it.

JAY

Hydroponic pot has been laced with meth. I'm not talking about pounds, but they sprinkled it on the cured weed. We just had a court case here where that happened. Outlaws motorcycle gang was running a growing operation.

RAY

You mentioned you took 7 hits. Too many in this day and age if it's strong stuff. Ain't your momma's Acapulco Gold anymore.

AU, I'm sure that sort of thing happens on a small scale here and there, but the general rule is: you're not going to go to the expense of obtaining, or to the trouble of manufacturing meth, to waste it on weed.

Hydroponic pot...

"Hydroponic" really does not speak to the quality of the weed. A skilled grower (given the same genetics) will grow just as potent weed in soil as he would in hydro.

JAY

I understand......

I assumed anyone bothering to raise hydroponic pot was going to make sure the genetics of it were strong to begin with.

Caio

AU

That probably explains my bad reaction. Never again! That's exactly what I was saying when I was barfing.

Dutch,

Sorry, I'm a little late to the ball here. I appreciate what you shared and your comments. And I agree.

These Children were profoundly stupid and reckless, they and they alone are responsible for their deaths and now for the suffering and sorrow of their families. They chose, they stuck that needle in their arm and now the people that loved them are the ones really stuck paying the price.

These children, on top of being idiots were also selfish. They are to blame for what happened to them, not their parents, not their schools, not society. If these children had any cognitive reasoning skills then they knew what they were doing was dangerous and they still chose to do it.

To you other folks, jumping shit, viciously so, on those that hold these children responsible for their own selfish stupidity is bad form.

I don't feel sorry for anyone that willingly chooses to piss their life away.

And a final question for you who got so bent about Dutch's response and the responses of others...what if instead of some random teen from Texas the headline had read this way "New Form of Heroin Kills Paris Hilton"?

How would you have responded then?

First of all, from the article everyone read:

"Because it is snorted, teenagers do not realise they are taking such a lethal heroin-based drug."

My objection was to the glee in the announcement of "Darwin Awards" and "evolution" in reaction to the deaths of teenagers. It literally made me sick to my stomach.

New Form of Heroin Kills Paris Hilton"?

How would you have responded then?

One less blond, air-headed, party-girl heiress for Sheriff Baca to have to deal with.

Most drug users start at an early age...and really, how cognitive is a 13 year old? The kids are somewhat responsible, I never said they weren't, but so are the parents. I'm tired of parents having 0% blame when a kid crashes and burns, but 100% credit when they get a scholarship.

And frankly, I view drug addiction as a mental disease, so I'm not as quick blame the victim as some around here...I'm really surprised at your post trees.

How would you have responded then?

Is Nicole Richie next?

"Because it is snorted, teenagers do not realise they are taking such a lethal heroin-based drug."

Drugs are just one of this society's unintentionally effective ways of culling the weak. Deal with it. I have.

screw them

Kid new the risks, kid still played with the fireworks, kid was stupid, kid no longer in gene pool. Darwin award.

I can see that I'm not going to agree with you and dutch.

......if we actually took the time and trouble to control our border.....a lot fewer of our children would be dying.........

..........but............

.........your Decider In Chief would rather kill Iraqis than spend his time saving American children........

Alex,

They killed themselves.

Drugs kill, they knew this and they chose to do Heroin anyway.

I have no sympathy for that.

People beat addictions all the time, it can be done.

These children were victims of their own selfishness, their own choices and their own stupidity.

Even a thirteen year old knows right from wrong.

Do parents play a roll, of course they do. But you can't totally shift the blame to them either. People are responsible for their own choices and giving them a pass on the bad ones will not help them.

Snorting or shooting up heroin is a conscious choice every time... and these children chose to do this.

Neither you or cooper answered my final question though, what if this headline had read Paris Hilton instead of some random teen?

P.S. If I happen to die of Lung Disease, Cancer or Emphysema because I smoke, I don't expect any sympathy. I expect to be held responsible for my actions. I am a Darwin Award waiting to happen myself.

But you can't totally shift the blame to them either.

I didn't. The difference is personal philosophy I suppose. Am I willing to cheer about the death of a child because they made bad decisions in their lives? No.

Paris Hilton wasn't a CHILD, Trees.

I can see that I'm not going to agree with you and dutch.

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-09 08:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Paris Hilton wasn't a CHILD, Trees.

Posted by Alexandrite at 2007-09-09 08:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Trees-
They were CHILDREN!

ACOA or Al-Anon? Might help you get rid of some of the damage your parents left you with..... Just a suggestion


I tried therapy. Mostly it was to deal with my own anger and hatred toward my biological father. What it wound up doing is making me more angry about it.

I grew up without a real father. The closest thing I have to it would be the man my mother married when I was 13. I call him Dad. I call my biological father by his first name.

Not out of disrespect but because, other than donating the sperm, he isn't my father.

It is not that I am a heartless human that I feel no sympathy for this kid. He made poor decisions that cost him his life. I feel more compassion for the parents than I ever will for him.

Trees- I caught myself wishing death on someone I didn't like the other day. Took it back immediately.

I can't be that person. I just can't.

Am I willing to cheer about the death of a child because they made bad decisions in their lives? No.

Paris Hilton wasn't a CHILD, Trees.

Posted by Alexandrite at 2007-09-09 08:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Cooper,

They were teenagers, and damn well old enough to know better!

Just to clarify, I often enjoy reading darwin award stories on their website.

Because they choose stupid ADULTS that really should know better and off themselves anyway...not kids.

Trees- I caught myself wishing death on someone I didn't like the other day. Took it back immediately.

What I don't respect was the shitting all over Dutch after he shared his personal experiences...to me that was beyond the pale.

It's really odd what you find "beyond the pale". If Dutch had died at fourteen as the result of an accidental overdose, would that have been a helpful "culling of the weak"?

From the damn article:

he latest victim was 18-year-old Scott Clark, a volunteer for a local animal charity and a fitness fanatic.

Most teens simply do not have the emotional or cognitive abilities to NOT do stupid spur of the moment things that can destroy your life.

And it only takes one hit of some drugs to be an addict, especially if you are genetically prone to it.

Does that mean they have zero responsibility for their actions? No. It means that as adults WE(you and I) should understand what type of brain these kids are using.

I should probably be dead for some of the things I did as a kid. Most of you too, I'd bet. But it sure is nice to know that an army of curmedgeons would have applauded my demise were I not so lucky.

I found Dutch's attitude revolting. He lived long enough to comprehend that his choices were destructive, and he did something about it. Good on him. These kids didn't get that chance, so he jokes about Darwin Awards and how its all OK because the "weak" were "culled".

It was beyond revolting from one who should presumably know better.

"Is the jailing, un-jailing, and re-jailing of Paris Hilton a harbinger of anything? Has America's Love/Hate-o-meter for wealthy celebrities swung in the negative direction? And does that swing portend something more ominous for our society at large? I've been saying for a while that the time would come when the moiling masses of the un-rich would turn on their pantheon of media-conjured demigods, and that this would be a symptom of mechanical trouble in the giant gas-sucking Hummer limousine that the US economy has become. Are the wheels about to come off?

"Of course, one would have to begin by asking what kind of society would worship clowns like Donald Trump in the first place -- and the answer would be: a society of envious slobs deluded into thinking that they could become the next Trump if only the Baby Jeezus would whack them over the head with a sock-full of silver dollars. This is, after all, a culture currently fueled by two dangerously childish ideas: that it's possible to get something for nothing, and that when you wish upon a star your dreams come true."

Trees- "legally" an adult. But if he was 18, he probably started into drugs before his 18th birthday.

Even if he didn't, at our age that is a child. Sorry, but cognitively, as an average person, an 18 year olds thinking isn't much more advanced than a kids(if at all)

t's really odd what you find "beyond the pale". If Dutch had died at fourteen as the result of an accidental overdose, would that have been a helpful "culling of the weak"?

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-09 08:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

the latest victim was 18-year-old Scott Clark, a volunteer for a local animal charity and a fitness fanatic.

So "screw him", right?

Jesus! "a volunteer for a local animal charity".

Yeah, Darwin Award, screw him, culling of the weak....

Nauseating.

How in the hell did this become about wishing death on them?!?!?!?!?!

Posted by TreesGoneWild at 2007-09-09 08:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not accusing you of that, calm down. Just adding some personal info about myself here. Was intended to clarify my position...it failed.

I would have phrased my feelings differently...

Why?

Alex,

They were all old enough to know better and all responsible for their own actions.

I disagree that these are poor victims...look at how many teenagers assault or even kill each other on spur of the moment impulses. Should they get a pass too?

Cooper,

Because I am not Dutch and don't use the same verbal syntax as he does.

if you are so weak willed that you have to get into something like Heroin, especially because of "peer pressure" you are asking to die.

You assume a lot of things here trees. #1 you assume anyone getting into heroin is 100% sober when they do it. Cuz you know, 14 year olds in this day and age don't drink...

And where the parents? Teenagers fucking suck at hiding things in my experiences with them. Their misdeeds and emotions are fairly transparent.

And kids don't know enough about life to think they are going to die. They think they're invincible. YOU KNOW THAT!

I disagree that these are poor victims...look at how many teenagers assault or even kill each other on spur of the moment impulses. Should they get a pass too?

Posted by TreesGoneWild at 2007-09-09 08:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

I didn't say they were 100% guilt free. But I'll err on the side of not saying "good, fuck these idiots" when KIDS DIE.

But that's just me apparently.

Trees-
Oh, I'm sorry, you would have phrased it like this:

...kid was stupid, kid no longer in gene pool. Darwin award.

Well, I can certainly see the difference.

look at how many teenagers assault or even kill each other on spur of the moment impulses. Should they get a pass too?

Posted by TreesGoneWild at 2007-09-09 08:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

And who said anything about a pass? Any kid doing serious drugs on a regular basis needs to be in a program. Period. They need HELP, not condemnation after the fact.

I know it's frustrating to see intelligent people do and believe stupid things, and hurt and surround themselves with negativity in the process, trees...

I'm watching you do it right now.

the latest victim was 18-year-old Scott Clark, a volunteer for a local animal charity and a fitness fanatic.

So "screw him", right?

Jesus! "a volunteer for a local animal charity".

Yeah, Darwin Award, screw him, culling of the weak....

Nauseating.

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-09 08:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Alex,

I've been respectful here.

Personal accountability is not stupid. Holding young adults responsible for their own actions is not stupid.

I've not argued against the fact that these kids need help, but in effect they also must choose to accept that help, they must choose to help themselves.

These kids have not...who is ultimately responsible for that?

The parents? The system?

No, the kids.

If they don't before they die then it is a stupid, pointless waste. It didn't have to happen and they should have known better.

And kids don't know enough about life to think they are going to die. They think they're invincible. YOU KNOW THAT!

Posted by Alexandrite at 2007-09-09 08:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Because Kurt Cobain willingly and knowingly wasted his life with drugs and then threw all his potential away when he put that shot gun to his head and pulled the trigger. He chose that.

I have followed this thread and I waited until now to jump in. I can't quite figure out why trees is responding they way he is.

trees, is your real beef about money and advantages of certain youth?? You choose Kurt Cobain as an examle.....it is a damn poor one at that unless your real issue is with the fact that Kurt had everything and he wasted it.

Are you making that assumption about these kids??

These kids chose to throw their lives away.

The vast majority of heroin users started out on something else. And that something else was a method to block out their pain from an unhappy childhood. Instead of trying to find out what happened to these people, and fix the societal problems(parents working 2 jobs, single parents, drug use at home, physical emotional and sexual abuse) once the drug addict dies...society says "fuck you, dirtbag" and closes the history book.

Nothing is learned, and the process continues with another kid in a similar situation.

Heroin addicts do not come from some alternate dimension, they do not arrive from the ether for no reason. And we are ignoring the reasons...because it is easier to say "fuck you, dirtbag" after being heartbroken by their actions than it is to look at, and change, our sick country.

It's always easier to transfer our collective guilt into rage in order to not look at the gross parts of ourselves.

It didn't have to happen and they should have known better.

But they didn't, 'cause they were kids.

I do agree that it's tragic and a complete waste, but the vehemence and total lack of empathy in some of your statements was jarring. It's just not what I've come to expect from your posts.

Except for the millions of kids who don't think they are invincible, who never pick up the bottle, who never do drugs.

Posted by TreesGoneWild at 2007-09-09 08:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah...in UTAH, maybe. Most people have done alcohol and at least marijuana, trees. Don't kid yourself.

I do agree that it's tragic and a complete waste, but the vehemence and total lack of empathy in some of your statements was jarring. It's just not what I've come to expect from your posts.

Posted by Cooper at 2007-09-09 08:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Bingo. I can only assume that, like me, Trees has lost someone to drugs and those memories of that loved one have turned to poison in her veins. I can understand, if not emulate, that.

But it's the wrong path.

Excuse me.

Do you guys want to know what is setting us a part right now?

I am not assuming ANYTHING about your person or your lives in this debate.

Drop the psycho-analysis because it is getting offensive. Why do you insist on making this personal?

Alex, frankly coming from you, I'm shocked.

I am trying to be respectful of you and you're shitting all over me here.

Thinking that young adults should be held responsible for their own actions is "poison in my veins"? Are you kidding me?

Honestly, I expected better from you.

What I know are a lot of kids who had terrible childhoods, who had nothing and never once touched drugs, committed crimes or became alcoholics. I respect those kids.

Kids who choose to throw their lives away I can't respect.

I'm terribly sorry if that makes me stupid in your eyes or if you think I have "poison in my veins" because of that.

"I tried therapy. Mostly it was to deal with my own anger and hatred toward my biological father. What it wound up doing is making me more angry about it."

AXIOM

Therapy didn't help me, but Al-Anon did. Psychology never did for me what the spriitual tools I found in Al-Alon did. What needed to heal were my heart and soul - to empty them of the bitterness and find true forgiveness so that one day I could forgive him as a sick person. Therapy only got as far as my mind. it never reached deep enough.

God's speed to you man. i hope you find a way to empty out the bitterness than can eat away at one's soul.

Drop the psycho-analysis because it is getting offensive. Why do you insist on making this personal?

Because you are absolutely livid right now regarding this issue.

Drop the psycho-analysis because it is getting offensive. Why do you insist on making this personal?

Because you are absolutely livid right now regarding this issue.

Posted by eberly at 2007-09-09 09:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Drop the psycho-analysis because it is getting offensive. Why do you insist on making this personal?

Because you are absolutely livid right now regarding this issue.

Posted by eberly at 2007-09-09 09:01 PM | Reply | Flag

Wow! The real positive upstanding nice guy. Thought the king of being positive and nice was what you preached. Guess you can't hold up to your standards you expect of others.

Drop the psycho-analysis because it is getting offensive. Why do you insist on making this personal?

Because you are absolutely livid right now regarding this issue.

Posted by eberly at 2007-09-09 09:01 PM | Reply | Flag:


And your point is what, exactly?


Posted by TreesGoneWild

That there is another issue at work here with you. You won't admit it but I think I know what it is.

Oh please do elaborate, Eberly.

I'm dying to know what you think.

They're dead, they got off easy. It's their survivors that pay for their selfishness.


this comment sticks out to me the most Trees.

don't get me wrong........I'm taking issue with you on this issue but you are usually pretty liberal so I am taken back by your comments on this thread.

When is LSD going to make a comeback?

I thought cheese was for stoned wheat thins.

I'm sorry Trees....I meant to say "I'm NOT taking issue with you on this issue....."

Guess you can't hold up to your standards you expect of others.

Posted by moneywar

Who are you talking to?

Eberly,

I don't know why anyone would surprised.

I am very liberal, but that doesn't mean that I walk lock step with what you think all Liberals stand for.

Personal accountability is HUGE for me but so is personal freedom. Contrary to the belief of some, they are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Bad decisions, even made by teenagers, are not always someone else's fault. They are old enough to understand that what they are doing is destructive and potentially fatal. They make the decision to do it anyway, it is a stupid decision. It's a pointless, tragic waste that other people have to "clean up" after.

These children made the conscious choice to engage in behavior that could kill them. They made the choice to removed themselves from the lives of the people that loved them.

I'm sorry, I can't "Aww poor baby" that.

My sympathy lies with the people who are standing at the side of these children's caskets. My sympathy lies with the people who are left behind to grieve.

My experience isn't exactly the kind you think, Eberly. I'm not going into it here, because this has become personal enough.

My experience isn't exactly the kind you think, Eberly. I'm not going into it here, because this has become personal enough.

Posted by TreesGoneWild

Agreed. I lost my brother to alcoholism a year ago. He was 42. Personal responsibilty is a big deal to me.

Bad decisions, even made by teenagers, are not always someone else's fault. They are old enough to understand that what they are doing is destructive and potentially fatal. They make the decision to do it anyway, it is a stupid decision. It's a pointless, tragic waste that other people have to "clean up" after.

Trees, you don't have to address this but I am hijacking this comment to stress something else.

Shouldn't this same logic be applied to teenagers who engage in sex and then experience the same predictable results? pregnancy, abortion, STDs etc.....

Everytime that comes up we just say......"more education....more education...."
I'm surprised nobody ever comments the way you did on this thread and place the blame on the people who actually engage in destructive behavior they KNOW to be dangerous.

Eberly,

Shouldn't this same logic be applied to teenagers who engage in sex and then experience the same predictable results? pregnancy, abortion, STDs etc.....

Trees- i didn't mean to insult, I was sharing my experiences and thinking that yours must be similar because I thought like you once.

While a person I knew was throwing their lives away with drugs, I got angry and sounded very much like you, trees. I don't think you're a bad person at all, but you're livid, very personally involved somehow.

As shocked as you are for my "psycho analyzing" I'm shocked at your anger, but I understand it very well.(I hope Im wrong and you didnt lose anybody to drugs like i did.)

I am trying to be respectful of you and you're shitting all over me here.

No, I'm not. I'm asking you to drop the anger you might feel from your personal life(MIGHT FEEL) when regarding these children. That's all.

What if we'd sprayed the poppy fields in Afghanistan and killed their crop the last few years? What if we'd followed through on the plans to get them to grow replacement crops instead of opium poppies who's profits go to fund the Taliban?

Turkey is now tightly controlling their supply which is going for medical supply. That kind of leaves Afghanistan as the chief source doesn't it?

Didn't I hear we had a few troops there at one time?

Alex,

I can accept that.

I jumped to Dutch's defense because I can understand where he's coming from. He went on to share his experience, and explain why he feels the way he does and he was treated much more poorly than I have been.

I fully respect that we disagree on this topic. I am just, perhaps, a little weary of the hostility first, examination of the argument later scenario.

I am very passionate about this, because yes I can so closely identify with the people who are left behind.

What maybe you do not realize is that, even feeling the way I feel and have felt for a very long time, I have done everything in my power to help and get help for people that suffer from addiction. They also have to be willing to help themselves some of them are, some of them are not and a few of them simply cannot help themselves for other reasons.

If one of these kids was that person who simply didn't have the ability not to make a logical decision, then yes, I feel differently about that kid. But most of them knew, even peripherally, what they were doing was destructive and didn't care.

Trees,

I feel alot of the same way as you and Dutch on this one but I also definatly understand the views of Alex and Coop.

This is an emotionaly charged issue. Like I said before I am raising a kid who's mom died as a result of Heroin. So yeah I'm pretty close to this issue. I am just now having to deal with some of the tough questions from him. He is about to turn 5 and she died when he was 2 and had abandond him when he was 6 months. We all saw it coming we all tried everything we could to get her to kick the habit and none of it worked.

From my view thats where these Kids would have been in 15 years and it was just fate that let her live for 15 years shooting drugs in her veins. The sad part is these kids will never have the chance to learn how stupid they are being and try and quit. This shit sounds even scarier than normal heroin and that is bad enough.

I try and focus my anger on the dealers who cook up this shit. The kids did not know that this shit was SO fatal, yeah they made stupid decisions but damn they were just kids and they were given no chance to learn just how stupid the decision was. We all have to learn from our own mistakes what makes it so bad is the kids never got the chance to learn.

Anyway those are just my views on the issue you can take them how you want I try not to judge people so while I disagree with what seems to be callousness in your post I do respect your opinion.

No, I'm not. I'm asking you to drop the anger you might feel from your personal life(MIGHT FEEL) when regarding these children. That's all.

Posted by Alexandrite at 2007-09-09 10:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Tao,

Heroin by it's nature is extremely dangerous...you know this unless you've been living in a box. I would guess that if you're at the Heroin link in the chain that this is not your first time playing with dangerous substances.

If it was their first time, wow...and yes it is too bad that they didn't have the opportunity to learn from that mistake.

But realistically, they knew, they knew it was dangerous and really didn't care. They had chances to learn that what they were doing was destructive and highly dangerous and they didn't take them.

What about kids that drink and drive and wind up not only killing themselves, but other people. Who in the hell doesn't know that drinking and driving is dangerous?

What about kids that die of alcohol poisoning? Who doesn't know that binge drinking can kill you?

How many opportunities to stop the behavior and learn the lesson do you get before you are actually held responsible for your own actions?

My thoughts on this are as follows. While You can blame the Parents for poor upbringing it is ultimately the Teenagers responsibility and fault for drug use. I was raised by Wonderful Parents and if I had died from experiemental drug use I would not have wanted ANYONE blaming My Parents for it. I was taught better than that so Me Myself made the conscience decision to try the drug and die from it. Just My thoughts on it.

Larry

Trees: When one has already died as a consequence of a poor decision, what then is the point of judging them (e.g. stupid, selfish, irresponsible, etc.) based on that decision after the fact? What solace does it bring anyone to assign blame or fault for such a tragedy?

That you (and others like you) must insist on assigning blame rather than accepting the unfortunateness of this incident in and of itself, speaks to some deeper pain, IMHO. This also includes individuals that must default to blaming border policies and other political realities, perhaps in this case a resentment toward authority (or in many cases, merely a particular authority which is not approved of i.e. Bush).

It is you and folks like Dutch that appear to be personally affected by this (Dutch, for obvious reasons, you... I don't really know). You seem angered by those that take their own lives in seemingly unnecessary ways and not just in the general sense. It seems to resonate with you, as if at some point you were on the receiving end of such an act.

And no, this is not an attack but merely an observation.

BRS,

Any time a young person dies, any time anyone dies it is tragic. I didn't really think that was the debate.

It's that these children, pointlessly and stupidly tossed their lives away for nothing. In making the idiotic decision to snort Heroin for God's sake, they not only ended their lives but irrevocably changed the lives of those around them.

If a child dies because he was hit by a car, you hold the driver of that car responsible, right? He should have been paying attention, he shouldn't have been speeding...or you blame the city, there should be a lower speed limit, there should have been a light at that intersection, etc.

If a child kills themselves, why is it any different? Why is it so unspeakable to point out what a stupid, pointless, tragic waste that is?

Trees-
re: If a child dies because he was hit by a car, you hold the driver of that car responsible, right?

Of course not. It's evolution in action and a "culling of the weak". What was this "child" doing in the street when he/she knew better?

...kid was stupid, kid no longer in gene pool. Darwin award.....screw them

Right?

You seem angered by those that take their own lives in seemingly unnecessary ways and not just in the general sense. It seems to resonate with you, as if at some point you were on the receiving end of such an act.

Why does it appear you seem to be callous and nonchalant about those who needlessly and quite accidentaly take their own lives?

The very idea of drugging oneself to death is a cost to all those internally and externally touched by the individual. Is life so cheap as to sacrifice ones existance for a hour of mindfull dreamin.

Cooper,

I'm not even going to bother. If you can't get over your reactionary, anyone who disagrees with you is evil, bent then I am not going to deal with you.

Here's a little clue to help, kid crossing the street does not equal kid snorting Heroin or playing with home made fireworks.

One of these things has to be done in order to get places...can you guess which one?

Trees-
I'm not even going to bother. If you can't get over your reactionary, anyone who disagrees with you is evil, bent then I am not going to deal with you.

You're simply wrong. I'm really not sure where you came up with the "evil" bit.

Its not "unspeakable", to point out the pointlessness of the fact that the child killed him or her self, but I believe that to say that the child was "irresponsible", deserving of a "darwin award", or "stupid" is in itself wholly unnecessary especially when I can count on no hands the number of people here who have a full account of the situation in which these children took heroin.

How was the drug presented to these people ("hey man, its just a little coke... you've done it before!")? Were they intoxicated to begin with? Were they really in a state in which they could have made a better decision? Hindsight is always 20/20, unless you're the dead kid. I'm sure the children would agree, that the decision they made which resulted in their death was a poor one, but they certainly aren't here now to confirm that or to reflect upon the ramifications of their decision.

Of course, we can sit here all night and point out who to blame, but the reality is that only those now-deceased people knew exactly why they did what they did as well as the circumstances surrounding that decision.

If a child dies because he was hit by a car, you hold the driver of that car responsible, right? He should have been paying attention, he shouldn't have been speeding...or you blame the city, there should be a lower speed limit, there should have been a light at that intersection, etc.

If a child kills themselves, why is it any different?

Simple. The circumstances of the former scenario are knowable (witnesses, forensic data, crash site analysis, etc.) whereas the very nature of suicide, as a personal act usually directed towards others, whether intentional or unintentional, renders the circumstances mostly unknowable and hence (I believe) immune to judgement. Suicide notes may provide insight in some cases, but we really don't have much to go on in this one (an accidental, self-inflicted death).

Finally, let me ask you; if one of these kids had made the same decision to take this drug and it nearly killed them (and they were able to hit "rock bottom"; they received a needed "wake-up call"), the result of which was a long stay in the hospital which led to months of rehab and in the end, a full recovery and the promise of a clean, productive life, would the decision still be as poor as if the person had simply died as a result? (Yes, in this case, fortune does truly favor the foolish, I suppose)

We can assume here that had the person not taken the really bad heroin, they'd no doubt still be on some pretty nasty stuff. I'm not saying that we nor the person in question should necessarily be glad that they took the bad heroin even though the end result was desirable (no ends-justify-the-means nonsense), but the judgement placed on such a decision will be decidedly different given different outcomes to the same decision.

I think we can see that the decision cannot be considered universally poor, but is considered stupid, poor, or senseless only in the event of certain outcomes (a needless, and pointless death). So, I find judgement calls proclaiming the poorness, stupidness, and senselessness of these children's decisions to be misguided and I take them with a very large grain of salt.

Sorry if that was long-winded. I've a tendency...

I have to go, trees, but of all the posters on this blog I have to say that you are among the last ones that I ever thought I'd have such a viscerally memorable and unpleasant reaction to.

You're simply wrong. I'm really not sure where you came up with the "evil" bit.

As I have a small grin with a rumble of a chuckle.

Says who????? You!!!!

So that means YOU are right??????? Says who????? YOU!!!!!!

Should we cowtow to your greatness of such rightness? After all, you seemed to know the correct thoughts.

Why does it appear you seem to be callous and nonchalant about those who needlessly and quite accidentaly take their own lives?

Money: Because, when trying to make a point, I find it more effective to be objective and to put my personal feelings aside. I was trying to point out why I thought it was fallacious to simply blame these children for their own, unfortunate deaths. Showing that I felt bad or sorry about it would not really help make that point.

In case you are curious though, I feel very sorry for these people's families and anyone that cared for them. I also feel bad for the kids since their lives are now over before they ever really began.

Funny you should find my thoughts callous... Read any of the comments further up? I can't be any worse than Mr. Darwin Award up there.

I ever thought I'd have such a viscerally memorable and unpleasant reaction to.

BRS,

Mr. Darwin is a bore.....Yawn!!!!

For those who know so little in life and making decisions of pleasure through drug induced idiocy is a reflection of our society as a whole.

The problem with this whole situation is the society's acceptance of the drug in the first place. Education seems to be lacking in Texas and any other place with high drug problems.

"Because it is snorted, teenagers do not realise they are taking such a lethal heroin-based drug."

Okay so we can make excuse for....say... the first 5 to OD....they " did not realize". But...from then on (23-5=18) I'd go with the Darwin approach.

Teens experiment with drugs. For better or worse it is part of growing up in this country. That teens are dying due to bad heroin is not something to take pleasure in.

Posted by moder8

no shit..I'll bet a 1/3 of these assholes posting this crap are addicted to something whether it be cigs, alcohol or oxycontin the rights drug of choice.

I have lost count of the stupid fuckers (just so happen to be conservatives) that take "pill" variety of drugs thinking they are safer and not as dangerous..needless to say if you do drugs you the stay the fuck away from me. I dont trust druggies, and dont like em.

IDIOTS

Wow, emotional topic.

I'm mostly curious if Cooper ever actually makes a point, or if he is known for trolling?

Seems a lot of good points were made discussing both the ideas of personal responsibility and how its more of a tragedy then anything....but a tragedy where the blame lies directly on the shoulders of the deceased.

In response, Cooper decides to latch onto "Darwin Awards" and berate the evil people for making fun of dead kids, completely dismissing any relevant points actually made.

The nose bleeds must be hell at that altitude.

I told Cooper the truth, zits and all...they just didn't like the way I phrased it. To end all this bickering about nothing, I will just say that perhaps I should have checked with Cooper to find out what the acceptable talking points were before posting. That way I could then be assured I wouldn't put something up the precious snowflake didn't want to hear.

You are an enabler, and that thing slithering around under your skin is denial.

I'm out of here.