Cooper, well that video won't do any damage.

Rudy is "swiftboat proof" on 9/11.

The collective memories of that day, and Rudy's heroism and leadership will never be forgotten. So any attacks on his actions on that day just seem like nasty, bitter hate filled and unfair accusations by a bunch of people who have a grudge, a chip on the shoulder, seeking revenge.

Which candidate on the left is standing hard against illegal immigrants?

Rudy's support for the war is going to cost him. His opinions on illegal immigration will not even be heavily reported on the MSN because corporate interests want it to continue and virtually all of the other major candidates of both parties are beholden to the same corporations.

Which candidate on the left is standing hard against illegal immigrants?

I don't think any are.

Rudy's support for the war is going to cost him.

Not in the primaries, that's for sure. In the general, it depends on what the conditions on the ground are come Summer 2008. For example, When Howard dean was leading the anti-War charge in 2003, the War was still popular enough among Democrats to hand the baton to Kerry who had voted for the "Authorization to use force".

By September 2004, the War had become much more unpopular, and Kerry's "flip flop" on the war was seen as a sign of weakness and hypocrisy. Had Dean won, he could have stood a much stronger shot against Bush as someone who had the integrity and forethought to be anti-war even when no one else was.

Likewise, Rudy's pro-war stance during an unpopular war will pay huge dividends if by Summer 2008, the surge is still going as well as its going now and there a positive political developments in Iraq as well.

His opinions on illegal immigration will not even be heavily reported on the MSN because corporate interests want it to continue and virtually all of the other major candidates of both parties are beholden to the same corporations.

Danni, your comment seems so paranoid and delusional I can't even respond . You definitely have an irrational fear of corporations. Wonder what happened in your life to make you so paranoid private enterprise.

Bowa-
Why did "Rudy" place the command center in a likely terrorist target?

So any attacks on his actions on that day just seem like nasty, bitter hate filled and unfair accusations by a bunch of people who have a grudge, a chip on the shoulder, seeking revenge.

Such as those widows and orphans who wouldn't have lost their dad or husband had "Rudy" not insisted on the placement of the command center in the most likely of targets only then to point the finger of blame at anyone but himself despite ample evidence that he is/was lying about it?

Bowa-
What I find very interesting is that you have no quibble with the facts, but assert that the meme is that "Rudy" is such a media-created trademark that he is coated in teflon, and damn the truth.

What I find very interesting is that you have no quibble with the facts,

Well, I don;t quibble with them because they aren't really facts at all.

The video is bullshit and the "facts" have been refuted elsewhere -- half truths, events out of context, outright distortions.

It is a hit job plain and simple.

you obviously believe it, so I am certainly not going to waste my time tryng to convince you what I already know -- that it is a load of hooey.

That the video exists is not surprising -- Rudy is a very attractive candidate with populist moderate views that is a threat to hard core conservatives on the Right, and hard core Liberals on the left.

But as I have said, any and all attacks seeking to tear down Rudy over 9/11 will fall flat because we all lived through that day, and the heroic performance of America's Mayor went way beyond the call of duty -- it was heroic, larger then life, and noone will ever forget the leadership that Rudy exhibited on that day -- sand know video is going to be able to erase that collective memory of Rudy that so many millions of Americans share.

Rudy thongs and T SHirts must not be selling like HotCakes. That must suck huh.

Larry

The video is bullshit Posted by Bowa at 2007-09-07 07:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

"bullshit"

You caught me trees.

I do usually write "BullSh*t"-- I didn't this time. I guess I must be moving Left with a potty mouth like that.

LOL

I'm a regular larry Craig or Al Gore I guess.

Guess heaven isn't an option for me anymore.

:-)

If that's the best the drudge.com hypocrisy police can come up with against me is that I used the word "bullshit"" once , then I guess I am doing pretty damn good here.

a hissy fit to protect his beloved Rudy?

A hissy fit because I used the word bullshit? Come on Trees. I don"t throw hissy fits you know that -- I leave that for the Liberals like you, or larry.

I'm the one that started this thread pointing out how Rudy's stance on immigration is very problematic.

I was hoping to get a dialogue going on immigration and the different wasy the dem and GOP candiates and parties view it. But alas all I got was yet another posting of that tired old "hit" video on Rudy over his perfomance on 9/11 and a post by the filthy mouthed Trees condemning me for saying "bullshit" instead of "BullSh*t"

But alas all I got was yet another posting of that tired old "hit" video on Rudy

That "tired old "hit" video" is less than 24hrs old.

I guess you haven't seen it.

Bowa -
Did "Rudy" choose that location for the command center, or did he not?

Did "Rudy" choose that location for the command center, or did he not?

he did. It was one of three command centers. Ooops. the video left that out didn't it.

LOL

That "tired old "hit" video" is less than 24hrs old.

it is the same crapola that's in the Internatinal fire unions video.

Bowa-
How can you defend against it when you haven't seen it?

(I suppose the answer is obvious: you can't)

he did

Thank you. Giuliani blames the choice on everyone else.

I just don`t seeRudy standing any chance of becoming president. The fact that so many discontented Repub.icans are touting him is indicative of just how weak the GOP field is.

How can you defend against it when you haven't seen it?

Because the command center accusation is crap and its been going on for months now -- The fact is that there were at least three command centers and as rudy said above, within 1/2 hr, they were able to immediately move their operations to another command center.

The idea that lives would have been saved if one of the command centers wasn't in WTC7 is ludicrous.

But like I said, I am wasting my breath you are going to believe what you want to believe. Just ask yourself this, why do you think the video left at the fact that the mayors office had backup command centers to move to if they weren't trying to just do a "hit" on Rudy?

"We also had backup centers at the police department. In Brooklyn, we had another backup center, and we had a virtual command center.... Within a half hour on Sept. 11 we were able to move immediately to another command center."

Ah, a quote from "Rudy" hissownself.

Exactly what does "virtual command center" mean (I assume it means 'rudy' was on the phone as the main command center was at ground zero)?

Giuliani blames the choice on everyone else.

Well, I am sure that the choice was recommended to him by others -- but he signed off on it so the buck stops with him.

Well, I am sure that the choice was recommended to him by others

Since you are "sure" of it, maybe you'd like to say who?

Virtual command center sounds like what You would see in a set of virtual reality goggles.

Larry

Was it the guy who owned the building and got a twenty year contract and then the next month held a fundraiser on his yacht that netted Giuliani a cool hundred grand?

Or was it his mistress that he liked to take to the "command center" that was in walking distance and had his own private elevator?

Bowa-
And I'm not even a pro, man. But this should give you a hint.

Fun thread, Bowa.

See ya around.

Since you are "sure" of it, maybe you'd like to say who?

Jerry Hauer, who denies it. So you believe Jerry and I believe Rudy. I think Rudy is more believable because choosing a command center location is the exact type of thing a mayor delegates to his team to look into and give him options to choose from.

But ultimtely, it was Rudy who signed off on it and Rudy who picked it. So the buck stops with him.

Not sure why it is such a big deal, before 9/11 nobody could reasonably imagine or prepare for an air attack that would knock down both buildings. And if there was another bombing of WTC like the one in 1993 which caused damage but didn't knock down the building -- then WTC7 would be the perfect place for a command center.

but the whole point is moot anyway since rudy had backup command centers, was on the scene almost immediately and as the entire world saw was very much in charge, heroically rinning things and showing unbelievable poise and leadership from the get-go.

Bowa-
re: Jerry Hauer, who denies it. So you believe Jerry and I believe Rudy.

Hauer is documented to have recommended another location. Even that Foxnews leftist Chris Wallace knows that!

LOL.

But ultimtely, it was Rudy who signed off on it and Rudy who picked it. So the buck stops with him.

According to "heroic Rudy", it doesn't. It's someone elses fault.

Lokisfur it's such a big deal because there had been one other attack at WTC February 26 1993 so it was STUPID to place the command center at a High Valued target such as WTC. This goes to show the average voter Rudy's lack of fore thought. Therefore He would lack the necessary forethought to NOT put Your commend center into a place that had already been attacked once. Like Bill Clinton had the necessary forethought to place FEMA in a cabinet level position when He became President.

Larry

And if there was another bombing of WTC like the one in 1993 which caused damage but didn't knock down the building -- then WTC7 would be the perfect place for a command center.

LOL. Too bad it wasn't "Rudy's" idea then...shill.

gotta go

Cooper been there I cringed

Larry

According to "heroic Rudy", it doesn't. It's someone elses fault.

If the "command center" is that big an issue for you then don't vote for him. What can I tell you. Rudy was succesfully running the 4th largest economy in the US, which is more then any of the dems or other GOP cnadidates have done -- if his team recommends where to put a command center, I doubt he's going to waste much time arguing with them over it -- so to that extent -- Rudy's team (led by Hauer) were responsible for making the choice of WTC7 -- but he signed off on it. So the buck stops with him.

But as I said initially, this issue is a non-starter, it ain't going anywhere -- and I suspect that all of those who raise the issue were not going to vote for rudy anyway for other reasons.

If that's the best the drudge.com hypocrisy police can come up with against me

To be truthful--I personally dont' care for Rudy. He has flaws that I have a hard time getting over. Like his stance on illegal immigration.

My Dad likes Rudy and thinks he will win the nomination and the Presidency. My Dad is Republican and not on the one cause idea of conservative social issues.


I asked about him about Fred and he hadn't even heard of him.

But I won't vote for a Dem--they all suck.

I have to see more of the candidates, and really like Huckabee and Hunter.

Ron Paul is not electable--so it is a matter of time for him to drop out. Brownbeck is awful--he talks in circles. Tancredo is a one issue guy and not going anywhere--except out of the running.

Romney is luke warm and so is Fred--we'll have to see.

Murphy

Rudy says illegal immigration is not a crime = Didn't want the vote to the white house.

"ILLEGAL".....it's now not a crime?

I bet the border patrol must wonder what the hell they're doing then.

Rudy is "swiftboat proof" on 9/11.

The collective memories of that day, and Rudy's heroism and leadership will never be forgotten. So any attacks on his actions on that day just seem like nasty, bitter hate filled and unfair accusations by a bunch of people who have a grudge, a chip on the shoulder, seeking revenge.

Posted by Bowa at 2007-09-07 06:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

Bowa,

How is Rudy "swifboat proof" on 911?

Seriously, the only reason he was walking the streets of New York was because his emergency bunker was at the bottom of the pile.

He had been told when he took office NOT to put it in the WTC because it was obviously a target (the 1st WTC bombings)....but he didn't listen to the experts and had it put there anyway.

You can defend hims all you like, but the facts are just as I stated above. He simply didn't listen to experts on the subject.

Next, Bowa will be celebrating Bush's 7 minutes of cowardice, as he sat surrounded bu schoolchildren after hearing "The nation is under attack".

Bombproof limo wasn't safe enough??

Rudy is a punk and a coward who can't keep his dick in his pants, just like all republicans. The only difference is that Rudy likes women.

Rudy is an asshole.

If he wins, I'm moving to Amsterdam.

Why Did Rudy Not Upgrade The Fucking Radios ?
To Busy Thinking About Broken Windows I Guess, While His Command Center Was Smoldering !!
What An Ass Clown

-Sarge

Excuse me, brilliant lovely treesgonewild, but it is supposed to be "pooh, pooh," not "poo poo" which is different.

This is the first time I have assumed the mantle of grammar nanny, and it may be the last, but that was just too tempting.

But don't get the wrong impression, either, I'm not defending Bowa, even though I'm his third favorite dwarf.

On topic, Rudy is wasting a lot of time and media exposure. He won't get more than a few thousand votes in the South.

Rudy is a punk and a coward who can't keep his dick in his pants, just like all republicans. The only difference is that Rudy likes women.

Agreed, BBob.

Hell, Rudy likes women so much he can often be found dressing up like one.

Be Well.

The video is bullshit and the "facts" have been refuted elsewhere -- half truths, events out of context, outright distortions.

It is a hit job plain and simple.
Bowa


You are really funny. In the video is an INTERVIEW with the guy that Rudy claims told him to put the tower in Bldg 7. the guy says that Rudy is lying, and other interviwees lend further doubt to Rudy's statements and motives.

How could these direct statements be misproven "elsewhere"? Fox news? The interview was ON Fox news.

Easy on the blind faith, there, bud.

How is Rudy "swifboat proof" on 911?

The reason that "swiftboating" worked against Kerry was that given whatever collective memory America had of Kerry, it was certainly not as a "war hero" but as a leading "anti-war demonstrator" -- so any attacks on Kerry's "war hero" status immediately resonated with the American people because it was contradictory to that which defined Kerry's entry into politics and his core "anti-military" ideology.

Likewise, the reason that "swiftboating" will not work against Rudy is that the collective memories of Rudy on 9/11 was as a heroic, competant, leader whose strength and poise offered comfort in the chaos to the entire nation. So any attacks on Rudy's heroism that day will not resonate with the American people because it is contradictory to what they actually experienced of him on 9/11.

Well, he is right on this one. And if you think that all of those people that came over to America from Europe by way of Ellis Island several generations ago were legal when they set foot in the states you are dead wrong.

In addition, I wish more Asians would speak up on this matter cause many of them do not have papers. There are some Eastern Euros here in the same boat, but by all means let us let the Mexicans take all of the immigration heat.

Gimme a break!

My Dad likes Rudy and thinks he will win the nomination and the Presidency.

Your dad is a smart guy Murphy. You should listen to him.

""You definitely have an irrational fear of corporations.""

BOWA, what is so funny about your comment is that you make it the day after the US has opened our highways to Mexican trucks. Irrational????
I will remind you of my irrational thoughts when one of these uninsured, unlicensed, old an in need of repair trucks kills a few people on an American highway.
What is irrational is your refusal to wake the hell up and smell the coffee.

And your most recent post, about Swiftboating Rudy, do you really take yourself seriously???
If Rudy is immune from Swiftboating it is simply because he has TV networks behind him. If the networks had exercised even the slightest ethical standards the Swiftboat Liars could never have been allowed to slander John Kerry. You and your ilk are shameful. John Kerry's one big mistake was not answering people like you forcefully enough. He should have called all of you liars and troop haters for insulting a decorated war veteran.
Our troops in Iraq should know that if they ever disagree with the Republicans they will be slandered and called traitors. Disgusting.

Danni...why do you worry about poor ol' Hanoi John being slandered when YOU are slandering the MUCH decorated 250 some odd Swiftboat Vets, one with a Medal of Honor, ALL of whom spent MUCH more time in country than your idol. Don't you see something kinda incongruent here?

If Rudy is immune from Swiftboating it is simply because he has TV networks behind him

I disagree. The "networks" have increasingly less power then they've had in years past-- and they are no big fan of Rudy's anyway. So your "blame the media" argument is deeply flawed.

The bottom line is that it is very hard to change one's public persona. Kerry built his career on being an 'anti-war hero" and then tries to change himself overnight into a "war hero" -- America wasn't buying.

Rudy came to national prominence and celebrity as "America's Mayor" because of his heroism and leadership on 9/11 -- that's his persona -- and it is the collective memory of Rudy for millions of Americans, it no video by a Democrat supporting Firefighters Union, or one condemning him over the location of his Command Center is going to change what America already believes about Rudy and his actions on that day.

Dear Rudy,

You just tanked your presidential bid. Nice move ass hole.

How does it feel to be your own worst enemy?

If he wins, I'm moving to Amsterdam.



Posted by ness_gadol at 2007-09-08 12:09 AM


Why wait? Oh that's right, they may not have space for you legally for what, 3, 4, 5 years? Maybe never?

Illegal immigration is not a crime? Mr. Rudy should look up the following section of law title 8 USC section 1325(a) read it. Fairly straightforward.

Reference also 8 USC 1326(a) This deals with Arellano

Personally I could give a shit less what planet any alien that comes here originates from. Dump the IRS install a pure consumption tax with percentages equal across the board on all goods and services (excluding food,medical care and housing)and enforce the same laws on everyone.

Does anyone seriously believe Rudy has any chance? (Other than those already emotionally invested into his campaign.) This tin ear on the explosive issue of undocumented immigrants is just one more example of how out of touch he is with the passions of the GOP base.

You just tanked your presidential bid. Nice move ass hole.

I have to admit, Rudy may very well have doomed his bid by affirming his stance on immigration.

I will be shocked if he doesn't lose ground in the polls to Romney and Thompson.

On the other hand, if he doesn't lose ground after saying "illegal immigration is no crime" then he wil be all but unstoppable.

Guess we shall see.

This tin ear on the explosive issue of undocumented immigrants is just one more example of how out of touch he is with the passions of the GOP base

Both Rudy and Hillary are running general election campaigns to win the primaries. It's definitely a strategy -- how good a strategy remains to be seen.

I think Rudy, to his credit, basically looked at his record and said "well I can't just change who I am, so I will just have to explain how my decision making process that led me in certain directions for NYC was and is still based in the core principals of the Republican party.

He's betting that the GOP base will understand that given the federal parameters governing illegal immigration he had no choice in approaching it the way he did. It's a tough case to make -- especiall in 30 second answers in a debate with 7 other people.

I think Rudy has a pretty good plan for a high tech fence, and a few other things...However, like most politicians and some conservative talk show hosts, the idea the more illegals come and stay in the United States the less it can do to protect it's borders...

Sorry Mr O Factor, Bill and the rest who believe in such a weak idea about stopping illegal immigration. While it's true it would be impossible to deport every single illegal immigrant, just like it's impossible to catch every single criminal there is. However, this issue is complex and requires more than one solution to control it's borders...An increase in deportations would help deter and even stop illegal immigration as well as, man power, finishing the fence, adding high tech observations, making companies pay huge fines for hiring illegals, and not only that but pay for their food and housing till the illegals get deported back.

Improve the process of legals coming into this country, reward those who come here legally and make it hard on those who come here illegally. This will discourage massive illegal immigration no matter if there is 12 million or 50 million illegals in this country already...

The US admits more lawful immigrants than any other country in the world!

Why not imprison those who hire illegals?

Seriously. How 'bout some time in stir for the CEO.

How about some prison time for you dad/uncle/aunt etc. who hires an illegal to mow his/her yard.

I am starting to like Mr. Guiliani less and less each time he speaks. Will I vote for him over Hillary Rotten Clinton? Probably.

I am starting to like Mr. Guiliani less and less each time he speaks.

Ruteger, a few questions?

What is he saying that is making you like him less and less?

Were you a Rudy supporter before you started listening to him speaks?

If not, who did/do you support?

Is Rudy Giulani for real?

What's hard for me to understand is how anyone could vote for this poser-American Rudy Giualni.

If it's not a crime why do they say it's illegal?