As of late last night, Bush's handlers were calling the media to explain he meant to say something else entirely. What a kidder.

Would someone out there please like me?-GWB

Headline should read:

Bush Floats... Flush Time!

According to most of the military leaders we don't have the troops to continue the surge past April so troop reductions would be necessary.

and here it starts......

as we have said for a long time..

when bush calls for some cuts, the left will attack him

when bush calls for troops staying longer, they will attack him


when he called for more, they attacked him even though they at first attacked him for NOT ENOUGH

its an old and now boring story from the left....

so just like I said about this book out now where he supposedly ignored votes to can rummy and other issues like that.

he doesnt go by the prevailing winds and worry about what the socialists scream about.......
he knows what he wants and then he goes after it and doesnt give up easily..........

more of you should have those traits.

he knows what he wants and then he goes after it and doesnt give up easily

We weren't talking about stallion milking here.

So the nasty little piece of doo is throwing out a bone...

When bush calls for some cuts, the left will attack him
When bush calls for troops staying longer, they will attack him

Yes, and for good reason BL2. Because it's all just Stay the Course bullshit.

Bush doesn't have the balls to call for a draft to put enough troops into Iraq to secure the country.
And without a draft or extending the tours of existing troops, the Surge is ending no matter what.

So what does the glorious leader do? With troop numbers comming down anyway, he trots out to announce troop level reductions, like it was his idea all along.

The surge is ending, what little was accomplished will be undone and the whole thing was pointless.
Bush never had a plan for Iraq, and he still doesn't have a plan.

Some of us have this little problem with throwing away the lives of soldiers for nothing.

Some of y'all care more about Herr Leader than about soldier's lives.

Some of us care about wasting hundreds of billions of dollars to destroy a country and make Iran more powerful.

And some of y'all just care about Bush's popularity.

declare victory and come home

and norm......

its so bad that we should just leave and do it now

I have read that over and over and now you say he doesnt have the balls to reinstate the draft,..

well the democrat congress could have ended it a long time ago by cutting off the money......whatsamatter......n
o balls.....


danni.

herr leader.....nice reference and yet you dont like it when I make the stalinist reference.....now I know that stalin may have killed more people but over 6 million jews is nothing to ignore......


and his popularity has nothing to do with it no matter how cute it sounds coming from your side.
thats just silly

When is the last time you spent 3 days with one of our troops Danni? One that is now heading back for a third tour. One that survived a direct hit with a rifle to the front of his chest hitting his shielding (a hit that resulted in two broken ribs)? One that has been rolled in a Hummer from an IED explosive? One that has spent a lot of time with Iraqi citizens? When did you do that Danni? Plus, your stupid hate and idiotic perceptions are coming through.

its so bad that we should just leave and do it now

There's no point in leaving troops in Iraq at current levels, they aren't enough to do anything.
It's allways been go hard or go home.

A draft of 500,000 to a million troops could at least secure the country, stop the slaughter while we figure out how to split Iraq in 3 to get a permanent solution.

Absent a draft, the only thing else to do is bring the troops home and let the Iraqis figure out things themselves. And yes, the Democrats have no balls in this regard. They know the Right will start screaming 'traitor, coward, surrender'. And so they chickened out and gave the funding.

according to report yesterday you may be right about the splitting..

did you read the article yesterday in the times talking about kurdistan......how they are thriving and even had comments from people there THANKING bush for getting rid of sadaam and there is an AMERICAN UNIVERSITY opening there this week.....
along with women walking streets without anything on thier heads and other things significant.
why cant the rest of them try the same thing?

religious factions?
greed?
my grandfather didnt like him so I dont either?????

I wonder if they're floating on all those tears Bush cries on God's shoulder when he's in bed at night?

"and there is an AMERICAN UNIVERSITY opening there this week"

Will you be applying for the bandmaster's position?

why cant the rest of them try the same thing?

Because they're nutjob religious fanatics and Bush had no business handing them a theocracy.

When is the last time you spent 3 days with one of our troops Danni? One that is now heading back for a third tour. One that survived a direct hit with a rifle to the front of his chest hitting his shielding (a hit that resulted in two broken ribs)? One that has been rolled in a Hummer from an IED explosive? One that has spent a lot of time with Iraqi citizens? When did you do that Danni? Plus, your stupid hate and idiotic perceptions are coming through.

Posted by ride_on


Somehow I get the feeling that Danni would have avoided this by not sending the kids there in the first place. That would be even better for them, wouldn't you agree?

BLT: That would be the kurdistan that sponsors terrorist attacks on Turkey? The one that spent the last 4 years ethnically cleansing itself of non-kurds? The one where we busted up a dozen or so secret prisons full of said non-kurds?

Sounds like paradise.

Util the Turks level it....

""When is the last time you spent 3 days with one of our troops Danni?""

One of my sons in law served in the Persian Gulf War and he hates Bush more than I do and thinks this war is even crazier than I do.
Spending three days with a troop, being a troop, doesn't give you the right to speak for all the troops. I have read many accounts lately of our troops being very opposed to this war.

Damnnnnn I didn't know Danni was THAT old. That is a surprise.

Larry

Good Danni, just so you know you don't talk for every one of our troops. YOU DEFINITELY DON'T and neither does your son (perhaps your son just doesn't want to see you piss and moan and he knows what pleases mommy)!

Ride On must not have read Danni's response. It is Her SON IN LAW not Son.

Larry

YOU DEFINITELY DON'T and neither does RIDEON, the difference being I don't pretend I do.
Where in my post did I say I did????
Huh???
Huh Rideon??
Huh???

In fairness I should say I also have another son in law who doesn't now support Bush and the war but who did initially. He never served though.

She treats him like a son Larry....expecting him to bow down to her (you know....don't make mom piss and moan). Danni, are you singing that favorite song of mine.....under your skin........hehehe!

Bush FLOATS?????

That needs to be corrected right away.
Tie a few cinder blocks to it-that'll help with the "buoyancy" problem....;'P

Please, please no one could be that desperate........

FU.

Posted by danni at 2007-09-04 03:15 PM

LOL, maybe you are right CIO...she must be ready to blow....er something else......

Ride on...you spend more time on Danni's ass than her panties. Get a fucking life, troll.

Some people are so stupid alex, that they finally get called on it.........you next?

Just tired of seeing you nesting in danni's asshole on every single thread, and adding nothing of substance in the process.

Send her your love letter via email, and if she turns you down find someone else. Quit being a WOB.

LOL, I'll comment on what I feel is appropriate (whenever, however, wherever)...go cry somewhere else Alex.

Alex,

It's known as the RideOn Runs (TM).

When you cry and cry Alex, you can call it whatever you want to call it.....

And Danforth, when you lose an argument, it's easy to see that you have nothing left......so cry on danforth. Guess you didn't like having your ass handed to you the other day.

"Guess you didn't like having your ass handed to you the other day."

By a coward who wouldn't even answer my question, and turned tail & ran not once but twice? Dream on.

Guess you didn't like having your ass handed to you the other day.

Delusional.

If we all went to a Drudge Party, do any of you think there would be a physical confrontation?

We all seem to get annoyed with each other pretty quick.

Personally, I'd just drink beer and laugh at a bunch of the Drudgies, but I get the feeling some people wouldn't be so casual about it.

OK fuck it, I'd fight Rcade.

"Delusional" starts with Bush

- "19 kids flew an airplane into buildings and killed 3000 STUDENTS" came out of his mouth just last week.

If we all went to a Drudge Party, do any of you think there would be a physical confrontation?

One can hope.

If we all went to a Drudge Party, do any of you think there would be a physical confrontation?

We all seem to get annoyed with each other pretty quick.

Personally, I'd just drink beer and laugh at a bunch of the Drudgies, but I get the feeling some people wouldn't be so casual about it.

OK fuck it, I'd fight Rcade.

Posted by 101Chairborne at 2007-09-04 04:58 PM | Reply | Fla

We'd beat you to a pulp, 101 sweetie.

Bush always dangles the thought of troops cuts just enough to gain more time for his illegal war in Iraq until the Neocon thug is out of office and he can hand his mess over to the next President.

-a physical confrontation?


I can see 101 and Ride in a long-lasting liplock.

Ouch! My eyes!!

We'd beat you to a pulp, 101 sweetie.



Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-04 05:02 PM | Reply


That's a given, I was wondering if anyone else would fight!

We'd beat you to a pulp, 101 sweetie.



Posted by CalifChris

"We'd"?? to imply it would take more than 1?

"and there is an AMERICAN UNIVERSITY opening there this week"

Will you be applying for the bandmaster's position?

Posted by Doc_Sarvis at


nah....I get tired enough of the pentatonic scale from just movies about the middle east.

but thanks for asking...

although there was a piece in the paper about how people are going over there to eliminate debt....

We'd beat you to a pulp, 101 sweetie.



Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-04 05:02 PM


well maybe not....because I would have his back..

of course I would be busy trying to keep lisa's hands off of me..........

"of course I would be busy trying to keep lisa's hands off of me."

Oh good God...you're so delusional!

Honey, the only hands you're getting off on, are your own!

maybe but dont you just love the attention....

tee hee

Rove to Bush while leaving the White House:

"Hey George, look...Announce you're cutting troops levels, he he .. back to the pre-surge levels. America will think you're REALLY cutting them. It worked on our poverty numbers. People fell for the 'fact' they're lower, ha ha, well than 2005's sitting at 12.7%, and never noticed that it's actually higher than the 11% it was when Clinton left office. You know how gullible the American public is. Just say anything in comparison and they'll believe you. You'll look like a hero....he he he. It's worked like a charm so many times before."

"Oh, and George. By all means DON'T mention that we've merely made up the difference from the 'multinational force' cuts by other countries."

"Just say anything in comparison and they'll believe you. "

Like "we've cut the deficit in half", as if they could only be prouder if they'd run up even bigger deficits, so they could claim they'd cut it by two-thirds.

BLT,

Bush's next hairbrained scheme is a surge which doesn't work any better than everything else he's done.

So then the dirty socialist leftists are wrong because Bush has seen the light after killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of innocent people while driving millions from their homeland for naught. He never even secured any Iraqi oil, but did succeed in doubling the price? And that's what it was all about, the taking of someone elses oil.

We could have bought their ten year supply for what the failed war has cost and never lifted a finger. But, it wouldn't have made Defense Contractors very happy and that's what really matters, not lives or working class prosperity.

Yeah I see what you mean, its the fucking socialist pigs again, not Bush.

Schools and roads are socialism, just like social security. Do you not want any of these things? Are you so brainwashed by Monopolistic Media Giants that the "L" word has completely engulfed your brain, trumping all facts, logic and ethics?

so maybe we should have home schooling for everyone.......

and go back to dirt roads and buggies...

hey would that bring back the whip industry or does hollywood already have that one cornered....

Bush is babbling on again today about troop cuts, one sees. Maybe he'll start describinbg hairey spiders next. Anyone note reports he may have been drunk the day before Katrina?

Honey, the only hands you're getting off on, are your own!

Ha! Like BLT even needs both hands fer that tiny task.

He doesn't even need two fingers nuch less hands. In fact, Spud heard he uses a special pair of felt-lined zircon encrusted tweezers that he bought over the internets.

Of course, that could just be one of them silly rumours you sometimes hear in blogworld too.

Ya never know.

Be Well.

On Topic?

Bush held out the prospect that consultations on troop reductions could begin in weeks, if not days.

"The first moment that there will be any discussions about troop levels will be after General (David) Petraeus and Ambassador (Ryan) Crocker come back to Washington," Bush said, referring to their much-anticipated testimony before Congress next Tuesday to give their assessment of the situation in Iraq.

"Any announcement one way or another will be after these folks come back to report," he added

Wow,he goes to where the troops(who hate being there)are and says the one thing they most want to hear.
And the apologists lap it up.

Amazing.

Late word is Petraeous will publically acknowledge what has been known since November of 2006 and state troop cuts should start in March of next year, to avoid strain on our military.

So, whatever gains can be made in Iraq, Bush has about seven months to make them. Or, if you prefer, he has seven months to lock in whatever he may have gotten so far.

ZED-
Who is writing Petraeus' report?

No idea, Cooper. But my suspicious mind notes that our straight-shooting C-in-C has been on both sides of this troop reduction issue for the last week.

My prediction: he finds the one solution to Iraq that pisses Right and Left off equally.

When I saw the title to this thread I told myself that I would go into it and most of the first posts would be from the people decrying the war and wanting the troops out. They would be cynical and looking at ulterior motives.

I was right. How predictible. It just proves what has been pointed out before. Some people just love the troops there dying so that they can hate Bush more. How sad they didn't rejoice in the proposed troop cuts.

I for one welcome the troop cuts even if:

Would someone out there please like me?-GWB
Bush Floats... Flush Time!
So the nasty little piece of doo is throwing out a bone...

What blood loving hypocrites you guys are!

"Proposed troop cuts...?"

So far there are no proposed cuts. So far we're being teased with cuts in a rather pornographic manner.

ZED-
It's the WH report.

But, I admit to cynicism. My idea is that Bush goes for whatever "solution" in Iraq that makes him look the best. Kind of like a photo op, but with other people's blood and money.

How sad they didn't rejoice in the proposed troop cuts.

How sad that you, at this point, believe anything that that man says. How sad that I should have to point that out. How sad that you would be so gullible, and so eager to cast phrases such as "What blood loving hypocrites you guys are!" as if they were confetti at a parade.

Goatman

Wasn't Bush the one who stated catagorically in 2000 that he would never commit U.S. forces without a clear exit strategy?

The guy who believed in a 'humble foreign policy' who didn't believe the roll of U.S. forces should be 'nation building'?

Correct me if I'm wrong......If not, what's the point in anyone defending a man who went back on everything he promised the electorate in 2000? 9/11 shouldn't have changed his core principles. You either commit U.S. forces with an exit strategy or you don't, his foreign policy has hardly been 'humble', and the latest excuse for invading Iraq is 'nation building'.

In other words, Bush deserves all the bashing he gets for being a disingenuous person and leading us into a quagmire - the one Cheney knew we'd be in but didn't care about enough to keep the focus on Osama and Al Qaeda instead of cyincally turning 9/11 into an excuse to invade Iraq against even his own better judgement.

To make things worse he had the nerve to say that those that listen to the American people won't determine what happens in Iraq. Democracy is an inconvenience, it is to be ignored. He teases with a withdrawl but his plan to hang this war on the next President by keeping our Soldiers in Iraq.

When I hear news about something good may be happening, I look for the good that can come out of it, not the bad. I guess I'm just fucked up that way. Sorry to rain on your parade. Maybe more accurately, sorry to shine some sun on your rain.

Goatman-
Gosh darnit, I'm gonna wipe my memory, experience, judgment, and just plain old gosh-darn common sense clean and turn my frown upside-down, you "blood loving hypocrite" !

Gosh darnit, I'm gonna wipe my memory, experience, judgment, and just plain old gosh-darn common sense clean and turn my frown upside-down, you "blood loving hypocrite" !

You'll probably feel better. My experience in life (for what it's worth) is that I feel a lot better when I'm filled with hope than when I'm consumed with hate.

Your milage may vary.

Hate?

Hmmm. So, I guess my choices are either having a mind and a memory, and a somewhat functioning bullshit detector, or being "consumed with hate".

I like your theory of gov't, though, goatman: Believe whatever your party outgasses, and dream of ponies and rainbows.

Was that Jefferson?

"I want to tell you this about the decision, about my decision about troop levels. Those decisions will be based on a calm assessment by our military commanders on the conditions on the ground, not a nervous reaction by Washington politicians to poll results in the media."

One must compliment Mr. Bush's writer. That, perhaps, was the mostly perfectly-crafted phrase of his presidency. For depraved indifference to democracy, for the craven projection of political motives onto those trying to save lives and save a nation, for a dismissal of the value of the polls and the importance of the media, for a summary of all he does not hold dear about this nation or its people nothing could top that.

Same link as above.

If I claim that I don't like the idea that the President claims he can arbitrarily and indefinitely detain a citizen without charges, I'm "consumed with hate", and not "a moderate".

If I state that I don't like the idea that the President can spy on citizens without a warrant, I'm "consumed with hate", and not "a moderate".

If I find it beyond frightening that anyone treats this present administration with any degree of credulity, I'm "consumed with hate", and not "a moderate".

If I think that this administration has done more damage to this nation in seven years than any in recent history, and that nothing out of this administration should be treated with the 'pony and rainbow' degree of scrutiny (that is, none), then I'm "consumed with hate", and definitely not "a moderate".

'night.

I just got my black-light unicorn poster up, so I'm gonna veg. for the rest of the evening, thinking happy thoughts and dreaming of ponies and my bestest girlfriends, and how Bush will show us the way, god bless him. (I think he's cute!)

Bios are from the linked article and from Wikipedia (Addington).

G'night Cooper.

How sad they didn't rejoice in the proposed troop cuts.

I for one welcome the troop cuts....,

So would most of the people here if it wasn't just another Bush con game to bide him more time in Iraq until he finishes his term in office and marches off into the sunset with 95% of our U.S. Treasury in his personal bank account.

How many excuses do you need to hear from that clown to realize he's never bringing our troops home. So far Bush has promised peace in Iraq and the possibility of our troops coming home --

when Baghdad is secure
when Saddam is executed
when his son's are executed
when Iraq has a government
when the Iraqis have their first election
when the Iraqis have their second election
when the Iraqis draw up their Constitution
when we capture al-Qaeda-connected insurgents
after the battle of Fallujah
after the Iraqis form their own police force
after the Iraqis form their own army
after the surge
after ____________
after ____________
after ____________

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

Sweet dreams, Cooper

Goatman

Here's my record since we invaded - which I didn't agree was the right move to begin with.

2003 - hope for the best/late 2003 start to have doubts as violence begins
2004 - hope for the best/violence spirals upwards as we round corner after corner
2005 - hope for the best/feel Bush doesn't know what the f he's doing in Iraq
2006 - hope for the best/prepare for the worst
2006 - questions/doubt/I don't believe a word Bush says about Iraq

Anbar Province may be attacking Al Qaeda, but they haven't backed the Iraqi government

Baghdad may have less violence because of walls, barriers, et al, but they still don't have running water or electricity, and just because we've separated Sunni from Shia, they'll fight as soon as we're gone. Remember they lived with each other in peace until we invaded

Northern Iraq has experienced a spike in violence that more than makes up for the violence quelled to some degree in Baghdad

Southern Iraq has decended into Shia on Shia violence and the British have just left Basra.

Hope? Where do you get yours these days man? Expecially hope that we can get the f out of there anytime in the next decade.

Oh, and

2007 - lose all hope that a good overall outcome can come out of this. We're stuck

Some people just love the troops there dying so that they can hate Bush more.

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-04 09:34 PM |

This particular piece of flaulent garbage has been disproved so many times it's actually pathetic that they still try and drag it out.

All:

Berate the optimism if you want. I'm still going to hope for the best. As I said, your milage may vary.

I firmly believe that Iraq is a central location for the war on terror. Al Qaeda has even admitted it.

Yussuf al-Ayyeri, one of Osama bin Laden's closest associates since the early 1990s wrote a book titled "The Future of Iraq and The Arabian Peninsula After The Fall of Baghdad". In it he states "It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, in fact its very survival, is American democracy. Islamic absolutism, cannot exist inside a society where the people think they can pass their own laws and make their own rules."

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi wrote in a memo to Al-Qaeda summarized by the NY Times "extremists are failing to enlist support inside the country, and have been unable to scare the Americans into leaving. It even laments Iraq's lack of mountains in which to take refuge. ... [The writer] claims to be impressed by the Americans' resolve. After significant losses, he writes, "America, however, has no intention of leaving, no matter how many wounded nor how bloody it becomes."

I just want what is best for the United States. Mistakes were made and as I said above, I am critical of how things were handled early on. However, I know we cannot lose this war. Al Qaeda leaders admit themselves that Iraq is critical for their survival and I think it is important for people to realize the consequences of an unstable Iraq.

As someone in the military, I don't think many of you are commenting with any knowledge regarding what has been going on in Iraq. I will admit that the beginning was poorly planned, debathification was a bad idea. However, we changed who was in charge of military operations in Iraq, Gen Petraeus, who wrote the strategy to defeat an insurgency and implemented the troop surge to provide security so that political progress can be gained. The idea of putting 500,000 people on the ground is a bad idea because it creates the impression that the US never wants to pull-out. The way to defeat an insurgency is to win the hearts and minds of the local populace so that the insurgents won't get a stronghold and local officials can take care of it. You are correct in that surging cannot take place forever, however, I do not think that soldiers will leave before it is time and later have to surge again.

CChris - the smile's a nice touch of optimism!

G'night all.

LOVE2FLY

You are correct in that surging cannot take place forever, however, I do not think that soldiers will leave before it is time and later have to surge again.

Face reality. We are building 6 PERMANENT bases over in Iraq and the third largest U.S. Embassy in the world -- bigger than the Vatican. Only an idiot would think we would be doing that and leaving at least 75,000 troops to man those bases and protect those oil fields.

correction --

...and not leaving at least 75,000 troops...

Love2-
In it he states "It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, in fact its very survival, is American democracy. Islamic absolutism, cannot exist inside a society where the people think they can pass their own laws and make their own rules."

I'd like to have a link to that, if that's OK.

CChris - the smile's a nice touch of optimism!

Posted by YAV at 2007-09-04 11:36 PM |

Yeah, YAV, who says we're not optimistic and all Little Miss Sunshine around here, hahahahaha

"I think it is important for people to realize the consequences of an unstable Iraq."

Too bad nobody said that 5 years ago.

Love2Fly-
Seriously, in the interest of whatever honesty you feel you can come up with, I'd like a link to this:

"It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, in fact its very survival, is American democracy. Islamic absolutism, cannot exist inside a society where the people think they can pass their own laws and make their own rules."

We are building bases there. However, builkding bases is nothing new to the US after major conflicts (Korea 7, Germany 25, Japan 10) all have numerous US bases in those countries as well. I know there is nothing I can say that will convince you that it is not about oil. I just take solice in the fact that I feel like we are making a difference in making the world a safer place and giving hope and freedom to 27.5 million people.

Love2fly-
I just sorta asked for your link to this:

Yussuf al-Ayyeri, one of Osama bin Laden's closest associates since the early 1990s wrote a book titled "The Future of Iraq and The Arabian Peninsula After The Fall of Baghdad". In it he states "It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, in fact its very survival, is American democracy. Islamic absolutism, cannot exist inside a society where the people think they can pass their own laws and make their own rules."

Berate the optimism if you want. I'm still going to hope for the best. As I said, your milage may vary.

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-04 11:31 PM | Repl

One must ask himself at what point does continual optimism in spite of four years of proof to the contrary finally cross the line and become pure naivete and stupidty instead.

...I know there is nothing I can say that will convince you that it is not about oil....

That's right, you can't.
And I do hope a large part of it is about the oil supply so that our country at least gets something out of this God awful war Bush has dragged us into.

Boyd. I gave you the book where it came from "The Future of Iraq and The Arabian Peninsula After The Fall of Baghdad" by Yussuf al-Ayyeri. I prefer to get my information first hand. We study this all the time at the Air University and have PhDs come in and talk about terrorism, Al Qaeda, guerilla warfare throughout the years from Sun Tsu to the preesent.

Love2-
Great. Quote it with a link.

Posted by Love2Fly

My Dad did too -- F4U-1 Corsairs and helicopters when in the USMC (Korean War), test pilot for CalTech at one time, and flew Boeing 737's as a civilian when he was a captain flying for an airline. So what do you fly? We have a few flyboys on this website.

Do you have a more reliable source than al-Ayyeri's own book and PhDs whose dissertation was on the insurgency in Iraq? As a military officer, I want to learn everything I can about my enemy. Like Patten said "Rommel I read your book" I take great interest in reading what my enemy says about fighting and the insurgence.

Love2fly-
Do you have a link?

Here Boyd --

take your pick of links --

Like I said before, it's in a book. Go out and look for the book. I like scholarly works and first hand accounts. I don't see many scholarly works quoting websites. In fact, we weren't allowed to use websites for many of my papers during my undergrad.

Boyd,

The author is Yussuf al-Ayyeri, also known as Abu Muhammad, who was killed during a gun battle with Saudi security forces earlier this year. As quoted by Amir Taheri, al-Ayyeri argues that secular democracy is far more dangerous to Islam than any previous manifestation of modernity. The danger of democracy's "seductive capacities" is that they persuade Muslims that they are in charge of their own destinies and can, accordingly, shape policies and pass laws in violation of the sharia.

PS to Boyd - All I did was copy the title of the book and author from Love's original post and plugged it into Google.


Being the generous soul that I am, I linked 2 sources for you and reproduced their quotes.


Does this satisfy your request?

Love2fly-
That's grand, it's in a book. If you would provide a link (to the book,etc.) I would be better able to determine if you were full of shit or not.

I fly the Diamond Katana, Cessna 172, T-6 Texan II, T-1, and eventually the C-17 Globemaster III

That's grand, it's in a book. If you would provide a link (to the book,etc.)


Not all books have their content available, for free, on-line. That kinda takes the whole profit motive out of publishing a book in the first place.

And this is "one of Usama Bin Laden's closest associates" ?

Don't get me wrong, I agree that democracy, science, and reason are antithetical to autocratic and theocratic rule, but I find it difficult to believe that "one of Usama Bin Laden's closest associates" is (or was) stating precisely what you wish to hear, when you wished to hear it.

Also, I've provided 2 sources for you (on Love's behalf) that quoted the exact same thing he quoted.

CChris provided links as well.

How much more do you need?

Love2-
You can dispense with the preening and the insulting tone. It's unbecoming.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that democracy, science, and reason are antithetical to autocratic and theocratic rule, but I find it difficult to believe that "one of Usama Bin Laden's closest associates" is (or was) stating precisely what you wish to hear, when you wished to hear it.


Why does that surprise you?


These guys are very frank about their short-term and long-term aspirations and are communicate these aspirations openly.

I fly the Diamond Katana, Cessna 172, T-6 Texan II, T-1, and eventually the C-17 Globemaster III

Posted by Love2Fly at 2007-09-05 12:16 AM | Reply | Flag

Okay, thanks for the info. You should meet a guy on here named ZATOICHI sometime. He loves to fly also.

I don't understand what you are trying to say Boyd. It was written in 2003 so it's not like it magically appeared in 2007. I am also in an academic environment now studying how an insurgency works and how do defeat an insurgency which is how I heard of this book. You don't believe me that this book exists and yet google has 72,000 hits with that title and author.

JeffJ-
Forgive me if I don't take the National Review and the WH as independent sources, and forgive me if I think this is a line of bullshit while even agreeing with the obvious point that sharia law is barbaric, undemocratic, and indefensible.

What troubles me is the ability of you and others to swallow propaganda without the least ability, or even desire, to look at information critically when it conforms to what you wish to hear, and - moreover - when it conforms to what your gov't wishes to highlight.

I wasn't trying to be insulting. I was just tired of you asking for a link when I said it is in a book which probably isn't easily accessed on the web coming from an Al Qaeda operative.

I never said the book didn't exist. Ever.

I was just tired of you asking for a link when I said it is in a book which probably isn't easily accessed on the web coming from an Al Qaeda operative.

Thanks for protecting me from the hush-hush intel biz.

Night all.

I would agree that the National Review and the white house may not be independent sources. However, they are quoting exerpts from the book. That is the benefit of going directly to the source because things can be taken out of context. However, those quotes are taken directly from the source and from what was quoted, it is hard to imagine a context that it could be unfairly taken out of.

Forgive me if I don't take the National Review and the WH as independent sources, and forgive me if I think this is a line of bullshit while even agreeing with the obvious point that sharia law is barbaric, undemocratic, and indefensible.


I can provide plenty of other links if you wish - fact is both of the sources I provided quoted directly from the book. If you want more context, you'll probably have to acquire the book yourself.


What troubles me is the ability of you and others to swallow propaganda without the least ability, or even desire, to look at information critically when it conforms to what you wish to hear, and - moreover - when it conforms to what your gov't wishes to highlight.


What makes you think that is what I/we are doing?

Believe it or not, Boyd, some of us do a fair amount of reading. Some of us even go so far as to search out opposing viewpoints in an attempt to get as close to the truth as possible.

The fact that you seem think that people with whom you disagree merely swallow propaganda in an unthinking manner belies an intellectual arrogance on your part that is quite unbecoming.

Night all.

Posted by Boyd


I presume Cooper will be returning shortly?

It's not hush-hush. I gave you the source I got it from, I gavee you direct quotes from it. You can go seek out the book if you want and decide for yourself.

Hush-hush is "according to a source close to the war who refuses to be identified..."

I was trying to be as open as possible. I posted all the information I had.

One must ask himself at what point does continual optimism in spite of four years of proof to the contrary finally cross the line and become pure naivete and stupidty instead.

Yes, continual optimism would be stupid. That's why I'm not continually optimistic nor have been. However, this is the first time I've heard a suggestion of troop cuts. This makes me optimisic

Boyd

I understand now where you're coming from. Looking further it says that book was published by al Qaeda. I didn't know they were in the book publishing business. I did come across a different reference not related to this called the "Al Qaeda Reader" (by Doubleday) that would contain writings of bin Ladin and some of his command. I can see where you wanted to know just where this book was located. It's not in Barnes and Noble, that's for sure.

Boyd,

I find it ironic that you levy this criticism toward Love2:

Love2-
You can dispense with the preening and the insulting tone. It's unbecoming.

Posted by Boyd at 2007-09-05 12:19 AM

Love2fly-
That's grand, it's in a book. If you would provide a link (to the book,etc.) I would be better able to determine if you were full of shit or not.

Posted by Boyd at 2007-09-05 12:13 AM

I was just tired of you asking for a link when I said it is in a book which probably isn't easily accessed on the web coming from an Al Qaeda operative.

Thanks for protecting me from the hush-hush intel biz.


Posted by Boyd at 2007-09-05 12:31 AM

...I know there is nothing I can say that will convince you that it is not about oil....

It is about oil. But in spite of what people say, it's not about taking it. If it was, we'd have tankers lined up between the GoM and the Persian Gulf. It's about protecting it. It is America's best interest to see that the world has its share of oil as well.

However, this is the first time I've heard a suggestion of troop cuts. This makes me optimisic.

I recall when 37 year USMC veteran Congressman Murtha first called for troop cuts a couple years ago (not full cut but draw down of troops to start within 6 months (of the date he first mentioned it) and to relocate our troops outside of Iraq but in the surrounding area (Kuwait, etc.) in case they were needed to go back in.

I also recall how the Bush slime machine went into overdrive at any mention of lessening the number of troops in Iraq and they lambasted and tried to destroy this USMC veteran by screaming "cut and run" and disgracefully questioned Murtha's loyalty to his country.

Murtha's 37 year USMC service and loyalty questioned by a bunch of cowardly, warprofiteering Neocon chickenhawks that make up the Bush Administration.
And you wonder why we hate Bush and Cheney's guts?

Boyd says:

What troubles me is the ability of you and others to swallow propaganda without the least ability, or even desire, to look at information critically when it conforms to what you wish to hear, and - moreover - when it conforms to what your gov't wishes to highlight.


When I clicked CChris's google search link, this was what showed up on the screen:

American Democracy Threatens Islam "It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, in fact its very survival, ...
atheism.about.com/b/a/
025782.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar pages

Crisis Magazine ... after the Fall of Baghdad: "It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, ...
www.crisismagazine.com/
april2007/letters.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

Middle-East-Info.org - Jihad (Holy War), Arab and Iranian ... ... New York Post, Sep 3, 2003): "'It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, ...
www.middle-east-info.org/
gateway/jihadterr/index.htm - 110k - Cached - Similar pages

Chicago Tribune | Blog | Voice of the People It is not the American war machine that should be of utmost concern. What threatens the future is American democracy. To allow Iraq to build a democracy ...
newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/
news_opinion_letters/2006/08/
leave_iraq_us.html - 34k - Cached - Similar pages

Winds of Change.NET: October 2006 Archives In it Ayyeri wrote, "It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, ...
www.windsofchange.net/
archives/2006_10.php - 210k - Cached - Similar pages

Take That Liberals - Proving Liberals Wrong Made Easy! It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, in fact its very survival, ...
www.takethatliberals.com/ - 52k - Cached - Similar pages

PhotoDude.Com: QuoteLog: Terrorism "It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, in fact its very survival, ...
photodude.com/quotelog/
terrorism.shtml - 122k - Cached - Similar pages

Watch - Archived news and commentary: August 15 - 21, 2005 Al-Ayyeri wrote: "It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, its very survival, ...
watch.windsofchange.net/2005/
05_0815_0821.htm - 152k - Cached - Similar pages

Watch - Archived news and commentary: September 1 - 7, 2003 "'It is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, in fact its very survival, ...
watch.windsofchange.net/
03_0901_0907.htm - 198k - Cached - Similar pages

Sean LaFreniere September 4, 2003 -- 'IT is not the American war machine that should be of the utmost concern to Muslims. What threatens the future of Islam, ...
seanlafreniere.blogspot.com/
2003_09_01_archive.html - 159k - Cached - Similar pages

And you wonder why we hate Bush and Cheney's guts?

I am not a fan, either. And I don't wonder why people hate their guts. But I do wonder why some people allow themselves to become so consumed with their hatred of these men that it seems to be a major controlling factor in their lives. I'll be damned if I let any one person or thing turn my emotional state into one of raw hatred.

Again, that's just me. Some people can live with it. I can't. Life's too short to be consumed with negativity every day.

But I do wonder why some people allow themselves to become so consumed with their hatred of these men that it seems to be a major controlling factor in their lives....

I'm quite sure most all have lives outside of DR. However, this is a place to let out your frustrations and those two corrupt clowns Bush and Cheney -- while not the 'controlling factor" -- are definitely A FACTOR in many aspects of life for all Americans.

Whether it's because your dog Fido rolled over and died because of tainted pet food due to Bush's greedy free trade deals with China or your kid dies from lead poisoning because Bush cut back by $3 BILLION the money to go to the FDA for inspections of imported food and products from 3rd world countries, or your job has gone south of the border or overseas, or because they have encouraged corporations to downsize and increase productivity by downsizing (i.e. firing) American workers causing them to lose their health insurance and/or pensions or your kid just came home in a pine box from Iraq ... need I go on?

Considering the subject matter -- Bush/Cheney -- this is as good as time as any to take my trash out to the front curb. Tomorrow's trash pick-up day.

I'm quite sure most all have lives outside of DR. However, this is a place to let out your frustrations and those two corrupt clowns Bush and Cheney -- while not the 'controlling factor" -- are definitely A FACTOR in many aspects of life for all Americans.

I'm not necessarily referring to people on the DR, though I am sure there are some here who fit that category. I know some in person. I have an aunt (the NEA president I spoke of yesterday) and uncle e.g. who are literally consumed with hate for him. I am not exagerrating when I say that 30 minutes cannot go by without them saying something negative about Bush. That's what I mean about being consumed (maybe obsessed is a better word) with him. All that negativism can't be healthy.

Goatman wants to sing us a song - *grin*


Shiny Happy People

Shiny happy people laughing
Meet me in the crowd
People people
Throw your love around
Love me love me
Take it into town
Happy happy
Put it in the ground
Where the flowers grow
Gold and silver shine

Shiny happy people holding hands
Shiny happy people laughing

Everyone around love them, love them
Put it in your hands
Take it take it
There's no time to cry
Happy happy
Put it in your heart
Where tomorrow shines
Gold and silver shine

Shiny happy people holding hands
Shiny happy people laughing

-- R.E.M.

Okay, Goatman -- I won't pick on you anymore. I'll be nice.

I prefer:

I love you
You love me
We're a happy family
With a great big hug
And a kiss from me to you
Won't you say you love me too?

I love you
You love me
We're best friends
Like friends should be
With a great big hug
And a kiss from me to you
Won't you say you love me too?

I won't pick on you anymore. I'll be nice.

Posted by CalifChris at 2007-09-05

That lasted 15 minutes.

One more comment -- just because you're happy that everything is fine for you personally at the moment -- where is your concern about your country with all Bush has done - and plans on doing such as dismantling this country to form the NAU? Where is your anger about Bush's intentional destruction of our sovereignty? or the fact we're on the verge of firing nukes into Iran? Or his intentional selling off and privatizing everything this country owns? Is that the kind of world you want for your kid and future grandchildren? Yes, Bush and Cheney's actions do affect you and yours -- whether or not you see it now.

Where is the outrage?

Goatman

Forget the 1:45 am post. I'm sick of discussing Bush tonight.

One more comment -- just because you're happy that everything is fine for you personally at the moment

Not everything is fine. I'm human with my own issues.

-- where is your concern about your country with all Bush has done - and plans on doing such as dismantling this country to form the NAU?

I try to deal with facts. When this issue moves from the conspiracy sites to the main stream I'll look at the facts and form an opinion then.

Where is your anger about Bush's intentional destruction of our sovereignty?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'm not aware that we have lost our sovereignty

or the fact we're on the verge of firing nukes into Iran?

Again, I deal with facts. I haven't heard that we are about to fire nukes at Iran. I believe an airstrike may be immenint, but I don't think we are "on the verge of firing nukes". Therefore, i have no opinion about that


Or his intentional selling off and privatizing everything this country owns?

Chris, when you ask questions in the extreme or superlative it is impossible to answer. You know as well as I do he hasn't "sold off and privatized everything this country owns." I'm willing to engage in an honest debate, but I won't touch this kind of question. Deal in specifics and realities, please.

Is that the kind of world you want for your kid and future grandchildren?

What kind of world is that? You've laid out a lot of things that haven't happened or are greatly exagerated versions of current realities.

Quite frankly, these questions look like something Boyd would have put out.

Forget the 1:45 am post. I'm sick of discussing Bush tonight.

Too late. Actually, I think you reread it, came to your senses, and realized the absurdity of some of the questions. *grin* You seem smarter than to think I would bite a baited hook which most of those questions are.

If you either call everything a conspiracy theory or have to wait until it's a fait accompli before forming an opinion it's a little late.

30,000,000 illegals here in this country and you are not aware of any sovereignty loss.

Bush meets in Canada for the SPP (informally known as the NAU), they are building the NAFTA superhighway starting in your state, Mexican trucks are now allowed (Bush fought in court to enforce it) on all our highways throughout the USA, 200 Mexican consultates are on U.S. soil thoughout the U.S. and Bush is building a Mexican customs office (normally done only at borders) in KANSAS CITY -- yet the the NAU is only a conspiracy and you want to wait for more proof.

Bush would have, if we had not stopped him, sold off U.S. port security to the Arabs in Dubai, he has sold the rights for the NAFTA superhighway to a SPANISH consortium to own, run and operate and collect tolls from U.S. citizens yet you want more proof that Bush is privatizing/selling off everything under the sun<

and on and on and onbr />

sigh

none are so blind as those who will not see

What kind of world is that? You've laid out a lot of things that haven't happened or are greatly exagerated versions of current realities.

Wow! You admit that these things are happening but they are exagerated. Funny dat!


Specifics and realities????? Do you actually know any specifics because it appears you think it is happening but just exagerated.

Main stream sites??? What might those sites be that are worthy of your honest intention?

Sounds to me like you know about everything but just keep those horse blinders on purposely so you don't have to actually modify your feelings and actions to your party of choice.

Too late. Actually, I think you reread it, came to your senses, and realized the absurdity of some of the questions. *grin* You seem smarter than to think I would bite a baited hook which most of those questions are.

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-05 02:21

Too late. I was already typing my post when yours had already posted. I actually did mean what I said where I was sick of discussing him tonight though but then saw your 2:17am response and couldn't help myself. Okay, this time is for real.

re: NAU

You are doing a Buffalo Bob. Lowering trade barriers =/= NAU.

none are so blind as those who will not see

None are so conspirital as those who won't reason.

I was told the same thing many years ago when Detroit started turning all their factories into robots. I was told that there would be massive unemployment, the downfall of the american worker, etc. I heard the exact phrase "none are so blind as those who will not see".

It is just as unhealthy to see the bogey man around every corner and behind every tree.

Wow! You admit that these things are happening but they are exagerated. Funny dat!

I did? I guess you aren't familiar with the usage of the word "or" in the English language. Either that or you missed it in my post.

OK tell me where you get your data about our firing nukes into Iran. I missed that

Tell me where we have sold or privatized "all" our assets. I missed that too.

Sorry, Chris, but if these statements are true, I missed 'em big time. Give me a link to a story that confirms them, please.

BTW -- MSM = MSNBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, AP, UPI, Reuters to name a few.

re: NAU

You are doing a Buffalo Bob.
Lowering trade barriers =/= NAU.]


If you call the NAU merely the "lowering of trade barriers"...there is no hope

Buffalo Bob -- come out of hiding and have a round here.

got some mud pit tank sensors to calibrate. Sounds like fun, huh? will be in and out.

and cooling off on the high seaes while

correction -- "high seas" - I told you it was hot all day and I'm mentally sluggish right now

cooling off on the high seaes

Dude, I'm near the equator and 90% humidity. That ain't cool by any stretch of th imagination!

Anyone else out there who want to jump in here and show Goatman where he is wrong --

Dogpile, huh? *grin* That's OK. I can handle it. Just not now. But just a quick glance, I see I've proven you wrong. It's not "all" of America's assets as you claim. Unless you have more links whose sum will equal "all"

I just came in for 15/16 socket. Don't have time to line item this time. Next time in.

Don't have time to line item this time.

And you won't because I'm not giving you the line item veto.


Dogpile, huh? *grin* That's OK. I can handle it.

Actually it's more like "buffalo pile' as I put out a call for BBob to defend his name:

You are doing a Buffalo Bob. Lowering trade barriers =/= NAU.

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-05 02:40 AM | Reply

"got some mud pit tank sensors to calibrate. Sounds like fun, huh?

Goatman"

And I thought I was having fun! LOL

CC

LOL !!

I needed a good laugh. My mom's having a very rough night tonight. She got pneumonia. Coupled with the Parkinson's it's not a good time for her.

AU

Sorry to hear that. Is she at home or at the hospital? Pneumonia is always frightening with older people. Is she on an antibiotic?

She lives with my wife and I. She's on a plethora of drugs including antibiotics. It's not too serious yet. The Parkinson's makes it tougher for her to cough though. So, I rap her back gently and turn her over every little while.

She just got out of the hospital on Monday. Prognosis for the pneumonia looks OK. I just have to make sure she's getting her meds on schedule, and making sure she's comfortable - turning her, etc.

The doc had her admitted on Sunday as a precaution when it turned out to be more than a cold.

AU

Are you now giving her pills right out of the individual bottles? I ask because it will drive you crazy and it's so easy to forget if you gave them or not. Awhile back when my Mom got out of the hospital they just dumped like 12 different prescriptions on me to give to her at various times and between that and taking care of everything else you can go nuts.

It's not too serious yet. The Parkinson's makes it tougher for her to cough though. So, I rap her back gently and turn her over every little while.


Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2007-09-05 03:41 AM | Reply

plus, when they are very elderly they can't really give a good cough -- it's kind of weak sort of "ahem, ahem" -- no real hard cough and you don't want to pound her on the back. I'll tell her try and cough hard but it's still 'ahem ahem. "

I've found if I stand my Mom up (I have to hold her up around the waist or she'd drop like a rock 'cause she can't stand on her own) but I notice if I hold her up and sort of move her slightly up and down she will cough good from the excertion of just having to stand and move up and down and that helps the lungs to expand the air.

We have a dispenser. Without it I think we'd go nuts. Thanks for the suggestion though. I appreciate it. LOL

Home health nurses won't come in the middle of the night. We really haven't needed too much help. My daughter watches her when my wife or I aren't here. We're pretty lucky compared to some.

Thanks again for the suggestion. If we didn't know about it it'd really help out.

Well, I'd better try to get some sleep again. Have a good one, man

AU

Well, I'll say a prayer your Mom does fine and is feeling better real soon. If you need the names of any online medical supply places, etc. let me know. They have a lot of stuff to help you out at home to make it easier. One good thing is you have your wife to help you out -- an extra pair of hands really helps.

"...you don't want to pound her on the back"

I treat her as gently as a baby. The gentle pats on the back, then turning her over seems to be working out. Her weak coughs have been getting loose, so I think she's pretty close to getting around the bend. Thank goodness there was a Walk-In Clinic open nearby Sunday and her doctor returned my call. I think we caught the pneumonia before it really took hold.

Thanks again for another tip. I appreciate it. :-)

"Well, I'll say a prayer your Mom does fine and is feeling better real soon"

Thanks :-)

That link's not coming up Chris.

Boob would just be a distraction and discredit you. I'd spend too much time pointing out that there reaally aren't mind controlled 3 YO sex slaves being butt fucked in the White House.

That link's not coming up Chris.

It's a photo of a guy up to his neck in swirling yellow mud -- hardly XXX-rated but with your on-board nun -- I mean screener -- Bluewhatever -- nothing seems to get thru.

Thanks again for another tip. I appreciate it. :-)

Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2007-09-05 04:05 AM

AU

One final one tip -- they probably gave you one of those plastic upright cylinder tubes with the ball inside that they have patients breathe into in the hospital to measure their breathing ability?

If you don't have one you can buy it online or do like I did for my Mom's breathing exercises -- buy her a harmonica. It lets YOU hear the strength of her lungs when she is both breathing in and breathing out and you can tell if her breathing is weaker or not by listening to the sounds the harmonica makes. It won't sound anything like when we blow into it but at least its a good "home style" way of gauging the strength of the air moving in and out if you're not sure if her breath is getting weaker or not. just a tip i thought i'd pass on.

Boob would just be a distraction and discredit you....

BUFFALO-B

Are you going to let GoatBallsForBrains get away with that????

Whoops -- forgot to put *grin* after GoatBallsForBrains

don't want anyone's feelings hurt :[

GOATMAN

There are two documents you should read before you can begin to understand the genesis of our opinion of George Bush . . . the one you refer to as "hate."

At this stage of the game both of these documents are important for their historical significance. Most of us had already digested the information long before you joined this site.

I can't link from my present location but if you'd care to Google:

BAGHDAD YEAR ZERO - Harpers 2004

THE FINAL WAR FOR RESOURCES Online Investors News - March 2005

You might find that it isn't so much "hate" that consumes us. I'd call it "fear" . . . fear that our country is under the control of people with intentions that stagger the imagination.

So if we speak out with venom in our words, it's only because we're thoroughly disgusted with the cabal whose private agenda took (and is still taking) place behind the lies we've been fed from the beginning.

Maybe you can see the same thing we do . . . or maybe not. That's up to you. But the rest of us prefer to act, by word or deed, to rid our country of these malignants before they get any more changes to metastasis.

That link's not coming up Chris.

Not that link. I got the mud link. The news link before that.

TWINPAC

Excellent post! I had forgotten about "Baghdad Year Zero" -- 14 pages long and I read it 3 times and if there ever was a more concise blueprint of the real Bush agenda in Iraq than that I don't know what is.

Whoops -- forgot to put *grin* after GoatBallsForBrains

I've got thicker skin than that. If I didn't, I wouldn't survive out here on the rig. *grin* Thin skinners don't last long here.

I'll read it, but if its a theses against the Iraq war -- it'd be preaching to the choir. I've always maintained my position of being against that war. I'm consistent; I can't figure out why people misconstrue my political ideals except that they can't imagine being for one left wing value and not another.

But that's OK -- I've the same issue with the right wing sites. Y'all aren't alone.

Got all but 5 of the mud pit tank sensors calibrated. Gotta troubleshoot those 5. They weren't reading valid values. But I think I'll do that tomorrow. Got a couple of piddly shit things I've got to finish before 5:30

I can't figure out why people misconstrue my political ideals except that they can't imagine being for one left wing value and not another...,

Oh bull. You are definitely more one sided than the other and lean toward giving Bush the benefit of the doubt all the time.

It came up this time. I'm reading it now.

Got a couple of piddly shit things I've got to finish before 5:30

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-05 05:06 AM | Reply

Well, nighty nite -- and print out that article and take it with you for "enlightenment" -- you need it.

Oh bull. You are definitely more one sided than the other and lean toward giving Bush the benefit of the doubt all the time.

Not true. When Bush or anyone is unfairly bashed, (like comparing bush to hitler, which is absurd) I'll call a person on it. That doesn't mean I like Bush. It means I dislike lies. Again -- I'm consistent on that. Go over my past posts and tell me if I've ever defended Bush's actions or if I'm defending lies against him.

You are like everyone else. You read into my posts what you want to read. You see me defending him against outrageous claims like he had mind controlled sex slaves and you think that means I like him. No. It means I like the truth. There's a difference.

and print out that article and take it with you for "enlightenment" -- you need it.

I'm suspicious when people say things like that. It's going to be harder to keep my mind open when I read it now. You make it sound like the article is unabridgedely correct and goat-in-the-dark is in dire need of its knowledge.

I'll keep an open mind nonetheless

BTW -- though Harpers is clearly a left leaning rag, I read it fairly regularly. I trust its content in general. It is one of the sources of my left wing viewpoints. Planetprison isn't.

You see me defending him against outrageous claims like he had mind controlled sex slaves and you think that means I like him. No. It means I like the truth. There's a difference.

Pleeeeeze, you pick that one odd ball claim that no one believes and use that as your example for justifying defending Bush hahahahahahahahaha

Pleeeeeze, you pick that one odd ball claim that no one believes and use that as your example for justifying defending Bush hahahahahahahahaha


Cite one time that I've defended his wartime actions or behaviours.

GOATMAN

I'll keep an open mind nonetheless

I can't speak for the others, but it's the least I expect from anyone.

Neither of the articles I recommended is Bush-bashing. They're the informed opinions of the authors.

If you have time, please read THE FINAL WAR FOR RESOURCES. It clearly spells out in detail (and with names) the plan Bush and Cheney had in mind to use Iraqi oil (and perhaps now even Iranian oil) to crush OPEC's control over prices and supply.

It's an interesting read about Paul Bremmer's mission in Iraq and the reason's why the plan failed . . . at least in it's original form.

I presume you've also read a little treaties called Project For A New American Century (PNAC) which is more telling even yet.

It clearly spells out in detail (and with names) the plan Bush and Cheney had in mind to use Iraqi oil (and perhaps now even Iranian oil) to crush OPEC's control over prices and supply.

I'll keep an open mind, but I must admit, I am getting more fear from reading that article than CC's statement gave me. Your statement is personally less insulting, at least.

I remember after Bush was elected, but prior to the war, OPEC cut production, driving prices up. The left wing cry was that Bush was allowing this to happen because he wanted his Texas buddies to make more money from their own oil. This was a popular theme on the newgroups (predecessors to the blogs, as I'm sure you'll remember)

But now Harper's now says that the administration wants to crush OPEC ostensibly (I'm reading into it now, I'll freely admit) to keep prices down?

Yes, I'll keep an open mind as I read the article, but you have to understand why one would be skeptical when they see either political side change tunes yet use the same lyrics.

GOATMAN:

"But now Harper's now says that the administration wants to crush OPEC ostensibly (I'm reading into it now, I'll freely admit) to keep prices down?

Only temporarily in order to crush OPEC's stringent control over the world's most important resource.

OFF TOPIC:

I was channel surfing the other day and stopped dead when I saw a domumentary (I think that's what it was) about an oil rig that was getting into deep trouble in heavy seas. They were frantically trying to hoist 12 twenty ton anchors aboard under the worst of conditions.

I mentally pictured you under these circumstances and remembered you saying something about "the worst job in the world."

After what I saw I concluded that you are the master of understatement.

I was just watching David Walker, Comptroller of the Government Accountability Office testify to Congress.

He testified that there were 4500, let me repeat, 4500 Iraqi troops trained that can function independent of U.S. Forces. This in a country of 27,000,000 that used to have the largest military in the Middle East. Does that trouble anyone?

Further, Al Anbar Province has only 15% of the population of Iraq, and the shift to tribal leaders fighting Al Qaeda doesn't mean that they will support the Iraqi government.

The Iraqi middle class is no longer in Iraq, brain flight and capital flight has taken the heart out of Iraq. De-Baathification has resulted in the Iraqis competent to run the government in most cases no longer even in the country and left Iraq with few who are even capable of running a functioning Iraqi government.

What does the far right here think we'll accomplish with American troops to in light of all those indisputable facts?

The number of Iraqi forces capable of operating independently has actually dropped by almost 60% in the last year. We're going backwards every month.

Gee, AMERICANUNITY

I wonder what happened to the 130,000 Iraqi troops and police, all trained, outfitted with "I Love Bush" t-shirts and ready to jump the shark on Bush's command?

They probably read Cheney's bio and decided they had "better things to do."

Ya think?

I'm "consumed with hate", and not "a moderate".

Cooper, you definitely seemed consumed with hate of our President.

In fact, I suspect that you cringe at the term "Our President" because you hate him so much that you don't think of him as your president or even the President at all.

As for the term "moderate"- there's not enough informatin to determine whether you are or not.

I don't think a person's political bent can be determined by a single issue. For example, some of the most far -left liberals and far-right conservatives have always been against the war and think we need to withdraw ASAP.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH OMFG HAHAHAHAHAHHA HEEHEHEHEHEHEHE Oh My Lokisfur is at it again I see. trying desperately to defend the indefensable. bwhahahahahahha oh God how fucking Hilarious.

Larry

"Consumed with hatred for our president...."

If he'd stop lying and manipulating for one freaking minute, Bowa, pehaps we might learn to like him.

In everyday life, one learns to avoid people that lie and take advantage of you. However, in Bush's case, he makes sure he stays in your face.

I recall having earnest debates with Bushites who insisted Bush NEVER lied.

Now you don't see those arguments any more. What you do see are Bushites that earnestly argue Bush is OUR president, after all, and has the best interests of OUR country at heart.

To which I reply---nonsense. Whatever it is Bush really cares about---And you may not want to really know that---It isn't the United States of America or the people that live there.

I recall having earnest debates with Bushites who insisted Bush NEVER lied, Now you don't see those arguments any more. What you do see are Bushites that earnestly argue Bush is OUR president, after all, and has the best interests of OUR country at heart.

I think that's because the Democrats lost the argument. I think, They just get tuned out now by most people when they say "bush Lied", At least that's the way I see it.

I wouldn't mistake the "bushites" failure to constantly respond to the charges "Bush Lied" directly as proof that they now believe "Bush Lied".

It's more likely that it just means that "bushites" believe the Democrats making the accusations have had a chance to "put up of shut up" on the issue -- and since they won't put up, and won't shut up, then they, and their accusation, should be ignored.

Once they got the majority,The Dems had an obligation to either prove or disprove their favorite bumper sticker accusation "BUSH LIED" by investigating the President about how intel was disseminated to and from the exectuive branch.

They have started investigations into everything else it seems -- but not into this one area that could produce an irrefuteable criminal and impeachable offense OR afford the President the opportunity to clear his name.

Instead, the Dems would rather continue to make the accusations and score political points without ever having to prove them in the more objective environment of a bi-partisan investigation.

And Democrats just trying to score political points by making accusation they cannot prove or refuse to prove in an atmosphere of "due process" is really not worth responding to.

BTW: I think you will also find that "bushites" have been saying all along that Bush is our President, and has always done what he believed was best for this country based on the best information available at the time.

Bush is a liar. Period. It's not even debatable. The reason you don't hear much about it is because everyone with a modicum of sense knows it already.

It's old news. For most anyway... LMAO!

"Guess you didn't like having your ass handed to you the other day."

By a coward who wouldn't even answer my question, and turned tail & ran not once but twice? Dream on.

Posted by Danforth at 2007-09-04 04:53 PM

You used to do better than this....I answered your question numerous times. Just more evidence of how badly your ass was handed to you, so you've become delusional. Bye bye loser.

"I answered your question numerous times"

Bwahahahaha! Still lying? Typical Republican. I'll ask again, just in case you'll actually answer instead of turning tail and running again.

If you don't like lies, as you've stated, why aren't you at the front of the line demanding the truth from your own government, who's Department of Justice currently has three lies to the American people on the table?

AGAIN....you're answer which was posted numerous times is below.......

By the way Danforth....some time ago in a related Gonzo thread I said the he had to go. It was when he was doing his disengenuous back pedaling and not recalling. Go spend your time and find it if you want....I don't spend my time doing that....I'm not DATA. BTW, where has he been?

Posted by ride_on at 2007-08-28 12:14 PM | Reply


Reservist Senator Serves Two Weeks in Iraq


It's you who hasn't answered: why are these three lies okay to you?

Posted by Danforth at 2007-08-27 11:16 AM

Lies aren't ok to me and I never said they were.

Posted by ride_on at 2007-08-27 11:19 AM | Reply


Gonzales Resigns

Look above Danforth Dumbass. I answered your question. You attempted to put words in my mouth in your question (I never supported unfettered lies by the government). I answered you....."Lies aren't ok to me and I never said they were." Now admit you are a liar, or don't admit it....doesn't matter to me.

Posted by ride_on at 2007-08-28 12:10 PM | Reply

And my question, Einstein, the one you still haven't answered, is if you really believe what you claim, why are you giving your government a pass on the lies? You say you're not okay with the lies, but why aren't you on the front lines demanding the truth?

i>I'll keep an open mind, but I must admit, I am getting more fear from reading that article than CC's statement gave me. Your statement is personally less insulting, at least.

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-05 06:10 AM | Reply.

Oh, please, you'll survive I'm sure.

why aren't you on the front lines demanding the truth?

Posted by Danforth at 2007-09-05 01:16 PM | Reply

My answer is: when you book your flight to sit in Congress to make your demands....give me a call. If my schedule permits I'll be right there with you demanding the truth. Uh, unless you have some reason to believe that if we piss and moan on the DR that it will get the truth out...........

and his popularity has nothing to do with it no matter how cute it sounds coming from your side.
thats just silly

Posted by bushlovertwo at 2007-09-04 10:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

EITHER way, the one you profess to love is already seen by many on both sides as a complete failure as a president.

That has such a nice ring to it....and it's all because of shit he brought on himself. The dems didn't even have to trump up blowjob or anything.

Oh, please, you'll survive I'm sure.

Of course I will. But being thick skinned doesn't exempt me from stating my mind, does it?


I guess even after 35 years my HS speech class the debate team stuff still has a stronghold on my brain, even the "don't throw insults" thingy.

"HS speech class the debate team stuff "

Aha!
A US News & World Distort reader!
I knew it!

I> guess even after 35 years my HS speech class the debate team stuff still has a stronghold on my brain, even the "don't throw insults" thingy.

Posted by goatman at 2007-09-05 07:13 PM |

Had I been aware of your sensitivity level I would have debated you with kid gloves.

(errr, hope that doesn't get too close to your "goat" thing *grin*)

Aha!
A US News & World Distort (sic) reader!
I knew it!

That's one publication I read as well as Harper's when I get my hands on it, yes.

. . .with kid gloves.

Nazi! Making clothing out of kids!

Nazi! Making clothing out of kids!

"kid" is skin from a baby goat -- hence the "goat thing" comment -- but somehow I'm sure you already knew that

hence the "goat thing" comment -- but somehow I'm sure you already knew that

Of course.

wink

CC: I want to get back to that Harper's article, but I have to finish reading it. It has been hell here and I am persona non grata on the rig. I was up until 10:00 this morning. I was told to change the key to the wireless since it was being abused. I did and I was about crucified by the crew. Then we got out of the footprint of the DT 101 W satellite and lost our television. I acquired the DT 95 W satellite, but it is in Spanish. Even though I am merely the messenger, I'm not well liked on the rig right now.

Even though I am merely the messenger, I'm not well liked on the rig right now....,

You can't please everyone -- so you may as well please yourself and your boss 'cause the other guys aren't the ones coming up with your paycheck.

No rush on the Harper's article. It prints out to about 14 pages long and you'll get much more out of reading it if you just sit back and absorb it when you have a chance to relax.

errr, what's a wireless? a radio? why is it under lock and key?

errr, what's a wireless? a radio? why is it under lock and key?

Wireless internet. You know, like the Linksys routers everyone is putting in their homes these days. That's how we provide Internet service through out the rig.

'cause the other guys aren't the ones coming up with your paycheck.

That's almost verbatim what my boss told me about an hour ago. *grin*

So, when Bush promised to keep Rummy before the election, but unceremoniously dumped him after, what was that?

What's funny is Bush himself accepted he was lying about keeping Rummy when asked about it later.

He even advanced his reason for lying: it was personally convenient because it gave him a temporary political advantage.

If you want to be known as honest, you behave in an honest way. If you want to be a cynical politico, you behave that way.