Looks like chicken prices will be going up.

Any of you anit-illegals care to try chicken plucking? Don't pay well. work stinks, literally. You must process so many chickens per hour. guarateed to get arthiritis in your hands.

"Any of you anit-illegals care to try chicken plucking? "

I'll answer the same way I do for all the illegals/jobs questions:

For how much? See, I may not like it, but for $1,000 an hour, where do I sign up? That's too much? Let's negotiate.

I'm always stunned when folks believe there are jobs "Americans won't do". Raise the pay high enough and they will.

Southern Ohio, aka West Virginia North, was a big Bush area in 2004. Wanna bet how much money the owners of this plant donated to the GOP? Probably a lot more than the fine will be.
They'll be demanding their money back.

We may have to pay as much as ten cents a pound more now. Oh no.

When they ship all of them back across the border, that should make another small dent in the number in poverty here in the US.

If they can pluck 100 birds per hour and it cost us another $2 an hour for the pluckers that would raise the price of each chicken $0.02 or one cent a pound. Holly bird pluckers batman, that's a bundle of money. I'll bet the rise in corn prices have done more than that to the cost.

They need to deport these ILLEGAL immigrants and heavily fine the employers. This is the first step. We also need to return to the original intent of the 14th amendment this would get rid of anchor babies.

Next month instead of sending out welfare checks, the government should send out 200 notices to report to the chicken plant problem solved.

That's actually not a bad idea.

Deport the hirers, and watch the problem dry up overnight.

Wait, wait: the headline says "Raid Nets 200 at chicken plant".

I guess that's 200 less illegal chickens we have to deal with.

Now watch the company cry "Fowl!"

I want to hear down the road what happens to the managers and owners of the plant. I feel sorry for the immigrants, they are just poor people stuck in a bad situation. I'd like to know how much they were being paid and other details about their jobs at the chicken plant.

Okay, that's enough of the whole "but prices will go up" bullshit. You know what? If that's what it takes to stem the tide of illegal immigrants and crack down on those who hire them, so be it. Americans can do with a little thriftiness, wouldn't you agree? You think people in this country are so fucking fat because they will starve if they have to pay 13 cents more per pound for chicken? Middle-class Americans especially could learn how to do a little belt-tightening (myself included, and I'm in the upper 95 percentile, according to another thread...). In the last four neighborhoods in which I've lived, just about every one of my neighbors had landscapers, pool service, maid service, and nannies. And the wives didn't work.

People in the country need a little lesson in economics and, perhaps, a bit of self-sacrifice.

If we throw every "undocumented worker" out on their ear tomorrow, the money we save in social programs will easily make up the increased cost of chickens, fruit, ect. Plus, the money the new workers make will stay in this country as opposed to being sent back to Mexico...

Any other economic brain busters Furio?

I want to hear down the road what happens to the managers and owners of the plant. I feel sorry for the immigrants, they are just poor people stuck in a bad situation. I'd like to know how much they were being paid and other details about their jobs at the chicken plant.

Posted by danni

I want to here down the road that these wetbacks and the people that hired them are still in deep shit. I don't feel sorry for anyone that breaks the law which includes the immigrants that got forged IDs so they could work here in the US. What would happen to me if I got picked up with a forges SS card and drivers license? Would ou feel sorry for me dan? Hell, I just wanted some more money.

By the way dan, they arn't immigrants. They are illegals. Calling them immigrants is implying they are here legaly.

The reason I wanted to know how much they are paid is to determine what advantage in wages the employer was realizing by hiring illegal labor.
Also, if you or I were in their shoes living in Mexico I suspect we would do exactly what they have done and so I just don't feel hatred towards them. I feel it for the Mexican wealthy and their corrupt government. We should be charging them for every cent we need to spend on health care, etc. for illegal aliens. We should make it too expensive for the Mexican elite to condone and even encourage illegal immigration into the US.

"If we throw every "undocumented worker" out on their ear tomorrow, the money we save in social programs will easily make up the increased cost of chickens, fruit, ect. Plus, the money the new workers make will stay in this country as opposed to being sent back to Mexico..."


Uh yeah. All these illegal workers are contributing to the economy. Much more than they consume from the government.

Resurrecting and maintaining a wall with Mexico ain't going to be too cheap either.

Illegals are and always have been an integral part of the Amercian economy.

do a little math or learn to put up with chicken shit.

Math jackass? Fair enough. Go ahead and show your work.
Then show me your greencard.

Newshour did a story on the influx of Hispanics into New Orleans. They earn $6-12/hour and form the bulk of the rebuilding manpower and reshape local demography. Many of the illegals are never paid by Contractors who threaten to turn them in to the police if they complain. But the Newshour never mentioned that these people displaced Union Carpenters and Electricians that typically earned $20/hour plus benefits. Unions have had ties to organized crime for decades, loaning pension money and fixing bids. But unlike "legal" executive pension fund raiders, the mafia always paid the Unions back.

What does it say about a country that has legalized the pilfering of wages, pensions, health insurance and other benefits. How far could these "legal" crooks get, without an immigrant population and crooked politicians to negotiate with. Democrats and Republicans and especially the Courts are in bed with their "legal crook donors".

Uh yeah. All these illegal workers are contributing to the economy. Much more than they consume from the government.

Posted by furio

What dream world do you wake up in every morning? What do they do for our economy? What do they do for you?

I lived in a 50,000 person city in ID for a few years and the indigent health care payed by the county to the local hospital was over 1 million every year. I don't even know what the other welfare costs were. It would scare you to death. They did contribute to the local crime quite a bit also. 25%+ inmates in CA are illegals. Where do you live that you don't see the damage?

Furio, consider your bullshit status confirmed.

Its good that organizations such as ICE are cracking down but the fines that get levied on the companies that hire illegals need to be such that anyone would refuse to hire them in the future. Also maybe we need to impose a law that states if you are caught twice you lose your business, provided you knew that the employees were illegal.. Either way the sponges need to go back to MEXICO and get their government to pay for them..

Good point Army. How's about they fix their broke ass country instead of coming here to break ours too.

round em up. rope em and haul them out

FULLY AGREE, I am all for legal immigration... Bring me your tired, your poor... We are the land of opportunity.

ONLY THING I ASK IS DO IT LEGALLY!!!!!

HOLY SMOKE Georgeisadrunk finally got it right!!!!!

"Next month instead of sending out welfare checks, the government should send out 200 notices to report to the chicken plant problem solved."
--MFDVR

Best post on this thread flag!

Local and federal authorities said they would pursue criminal charges against company officials if they find evidence of fraud, falsification of documents or other crimes.

"We're going to look wherever the evidence takes us," said Brian Moskowitz, special agent in charge of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement for Ohio and Michigan. "No one gets a free pass."

Considering how many legal aliens of Hispanic origin are in this country it is nearly impossible for employers to know if they are hiring legal or illegal labor, or at least that is the excuse I have heard. That brings up a point that I believe we will have to deal with at some point, that is a national identity card. Would you support such a card if it were, somehow, not possible to make forgeries?
Without one I think it will be nearly impossible to ever really get a grip on employers hiring illegal aliens.

People really...If the government can eavesdrop on any conversation they want. Read license plates from satelites. Build aircraft carriers and the planes that fly off of them. Have extremely harsh penalties for Americans who have more than $10,000 in an overseas bank account and do not annually file the account numbers. Just for not filing not tax avoidance.

Do you think. Possibly. Just possibly. That the reason why the government has turned a blind eye to illegals and only gave slap on the wrists to offending employers is that the illegals are needed for the economy and that there are many jobs that they fill that Americans would never do?

Use some common sense, please.

there are many jobs that they fill that Americans would never do?

For what salary?

Sorry, Furio...that should have been in quotes instead of a question mark at the end. My apologies.

Furio, there is another explanation besides "we need them here." It's the Republicans running this country listen to lobby groups like The Chambers of Commerce of the USA who actively support non-enforcement of immigration laws specifically to lower labor costs in the US. It absolutely is nothing except an attempt to drive down labor costs and unfortunately it is working. It is part of a class war going on in this country.

Take these 200 people and convict them. Once convicted, sell them back to the plant as slaves.

Now, its even cheaper labor since you don't have to pay a slave. Just give em room and board equivalent to the US military's. That's not inhumane.

The gov't sells them and that means gov't profits. That money can be spent on finding more slaves for sale.

Problem solved. Jobs filled, money in the coffers, and illegal immigrants fleeing the block.

""and that there are many jobs that they fill that Americans would never do?""

Some perhaps, but illegals are filling many jobs Americans do right now. Thousands of jobs right here locally in S. Florida have had Americans fired and replaced with illegal aliens. That is not a theory, I have first hand knowledge of that and it is happening every god damned day while people like you chant the lines supplied to them by Bushco..."they're doing jobs Americans won't do." they're doing jobs Americans won't do." they're doing jobs Americans won't do."
Utter bull shit. As an American with grown children I resent the hell out of it.

Danni,


I hate to break it to you, but the Democratic party turns an even blinder eye toward illegal immigration than does the Republican party.

Jeff, I hate to admit it, but I do realize that.
I must admit, I am in a quandry about it.
They better get a clue pretty soon or some of us old time Dems will be looking for a new party.
I'm beginning to agree with the many who say there isn't much difference between the two parties.

Jeff, I think that both parties should realize that illegal immigration will be one of the most important issues in 08, ESPECIALLY if we head into a recession with rising unemployment.

"for what salary?"

Of course but then we get into inflation. Care to see what happens to mortgage rates during inflationary periods?

Due to current economic problems Americans want to conserve. Money, jobs, etc. This is the last thing to do at this point. This is why the US gov is pumping cash into the economy and lending to troubled institutions.

You need cash for growth. You need laborers (legal, and illegal) for growth.

Look up Keynesian economics.

Every single facet of the American economy and lifestyle is built upon the expectation of economic growth. This will not happen if you take or even try to take 10 million illegal workers out of the economy. You think your home value is dropping now? Wait until a recession hits because too many jobs cannot be filled.

And yes it is brutal in a growth economy for those on the bottom rungs. They lose jobs easily and must retrain constantly. If you don't like a growth economy then don't live in the US move to France.

It sucks, doesn't it Danni?


It is clear to me that neither party is going to do dick about illegal immigration, and all of the problems that come with it.

Both parties are too afraid of 'insulting' the hispanic voting bloc. Basically, they are a bunch of cowards who tacitly endorse illegal immigration because both parties believe that they benefit from illegal immigration, for any number of reasons.


PS - I appreciate your honesty on this one.

Do you think. Possibly. Just possibly. That the reason why the government has turned a blind eye to illegals and only gave slap on the wrists to offending employers is that the illegals are needed for the economy and that there are many jobs that they fill that Americans would never do?

Use some common sense, please.

Posted by furio

And what jobs won't you do?

Do you ever watch "dirty jobs" on TV How many of them are done by illegals? You don't mind paying $100 extra in taxes to save 1 penny a pound on chicken because you never see the accounting for the $100.

Have legal employees do the work for a fair wage and the price of the product will not rise very much and you tax burden should go down. What part of that is hard to understand except for taxes going down?

Danni,

In case you haven't noticed the Republican party is split on those who want to create an easy worker program and to grant amnesty to current illegals and those who want to get rid of illegals.

I think that both parties should realize that illegal immigration will be one of the most important issues in 08, ESPECIALLY if we head into a recession with rising unemployment.


I agree.


Both parties will pay some degree of lip service to the issue, in measured tones so they don't 'insult' the hispanic voting bloc they are both trying to woo.

However, once the elections are over it will be more of the same.

Hey Sniper,

"And what jobs won't you do?"

I started my work history at the age of 10 cleaning, emptying trash and locking up after school at my own grade school for $20 a week working roughly 20 hours a week in Philly. The Catholic Church turned a blind eye to child labor laws and illegal employment. I was quite happy to put the money into CDs in the early 80's as the rates were like 10% at the time. It helped pay for my college.

I don't do shit work anymore I moved up the ladder.

How about you?

What do you know about shit work?

Furio I am well aware of the split in the Republican party. I think illegal immigration is a perfect examply of why we should start thinking about direct democracy. We have the technology. As it is we elect representatives who have a wide variety of issues and positions. We have to compromise on some issues to elect someone to represent our wishes on others. With direct democracy we could vote for national health care without also voting for amnesty for illegal aliens.
We could vote against funding the war without voting for national health care, if that was our choice. We could vote against tax cuts for the rich but still vote for stronger border controls.

fur, I worked in heavy construction all my life, moving from town to town chasing the work. I have worked in some real shit holes but the pay was good. I have lived in more trailers than you can count and worked in some real dirty places.

Danni,

As flawed as our system is, a Democratic Republic is still superior to a direct Democracy IMO.

Furio,

You just don't get it. The reason illegals want to move here in mass is Corporate America has destroyed their lives back home. The same Corporations that bribe the White House, Congress, Schools and all their bureacracies to flaunt existing laws. The 1987 law was passed to placate the domestic population. Then unwritten policies were implemented to favor foriegners in college enrollments and jobs. These policies feed Corporate profits while undermining future middle class prosperity. Even though individual spending power is reduced Corporate profits are not compromised as long as they keep growing the population. These fuckers want another 100 million people competing for jobs, clogging our freeways and markets, polluting the environment and eroding the QUALITY of our lives. The same fuckers want to force you to wait 45 minutes to pay a 50 cent toll on privatized roads. Wake up people, you are being fucked in the ass one dollar at a time. Since its only a dollar for you and $20 million for them, ther is no way to fight back within the legal construct BushCo is building.

Nutcase,


You are a bright guy, but you've swallowed the far-left's extremist views so completely that I find myself almost chuckling at some of your posts.


I don't even know where to begin with your last post.

Just another fowl day for some folks.

Freakin Chicken Pluckers destroying our Amerikan way of life I tell ya!

Thank God George Bush is in the case! Yeah that'll teach those no good Chicken Pluckers stealing our good jobs and suckin off the tit of the Amerikan taxpayer!

Yup, it sure is a good thing that our mighty President is taking care of that pesky immigration problem.

Now lets see we got 200 of them sneaky varmits. Now we only have about 11 million to go!

So I figure in about a thousand years we can rid this country of those evil doers!

Yup good job lil Bush.

Though NUTCASE's choice of words might be different than mine I pretty much agree with everything he said. It definitely is corporate power that has prevented enforcement of immigration laws. NAFTA did destroy many family farms in Mexico from where many of these immigrants are coming. There is talk of privatizing highways where corporations will charge tolls and have not competition and so there will be no need to offer good service. Yes, I don't find too much to disagree with.

If they want to raid another food processing plant there's one in Beardstown,Illinois.... they advertise daily for help and I think the starting wage they advertise is 11.20 an hour. They've been advertising for help for several years now.

They can't seem to find enough help even paying 80 percent above the present state minimum wage. Indeed, minimum wage is a non issue.

My guess is that many of the workers there have bogus papers too.

How did they get into Camp David while Bushling et al were vacationing there?

""they advertise daily for help and I think the starting wage they advertise is 11.20 an hour""

So, what's stopping them from paying $15.00???
Supply and demand is what we are told when prices on oil go up. Same thing is true with labor. Just because the price rises higher than the employer WANTS to pay doesn't make ignoring our immigration laws less illegal or less immoral.
Thing is workers want wages to rise....for the first time in six years BTW!

Looks like chicken prices will be going up.

Posted by furio



No, the profits of the producer will go down. Unless their competition also increases their prices, these guys will go out of business if their prices go up. Its called the free market.
The notion that paying employees a living wage raises inflation is a canard often used by cheap labor conservatives to justify underpaying their employees (hence the use of illegals) to increase their profits.

Danni,

Supply and Demand IS the major problem when it comes to illegal immigration. Fact is, a huge pool of people exist who are willing to work for less than the prevailing wage negotiated by American workers. With more workers to choose from, wages go down. It's sad, but it's an economic reality.

Darthcheney,

In this case you are right. Brazil is a global exporter of chicken. If the prices go too high in the US then we will import from Brazil. Real simple. We'll lose illegal and legal jobs then. Most likely permanently.

The notion that paying employees a living wage raises inflation is a canard often used by cheap labor conservatives to justify underpaying their employees (hence the use of illegals) to increase their profits.

Posted by DARTHCHENEY


Actually, it's not a canard at all.

A mandated living wage would result in massive unemployment and a huge economic downturn.

Jeff, I know there is an abundance of cheap labor, our president made sure of it by not enforcing the law for six years and Clinton helped by hardly enforcing the law too. Personally, I am sick to death of it. I want it enforced to shrink the pool of cheap labor.

""A mandated living wage would result in massive unemployment and a huge economic downturn.""

But medical expenses can continue to rise unchecked. The AMA prevents their labor pool from growing too large by limiting who can become a doctor in the US. Qualified physicians from other countries can't practice here but illegal alien electricians can wire your house so you could burn up while you sleep. It is nothing but a class war. The sooner all American workers realize it and demand action the sooner it will happen.

In this case you are right. Brazil is a global exporter of chicken. If the prices go too high in the US then we will import from Brazil. Real simple. We'll lose illegal and legal jobs then. Most likely permanently.

Posted by furio


So what are you saying? Illegal immigrants are keeping jobs in America? What stops these producers from just buying up chicken processing plants in Brazil?
Seems to me what you are calling for is a revision of trade agreements.



Actually, it's not a canard at all.

A mandated living wage would result in massive unemployment and a huge economic downturn.

Posted by JeffJ


I appreciate your sarcasm.

Seems to me what you are calling for is a revision of trade agreements.

Sounds good to me. I don't want Brazillian chicken anyway.

Danni,


The AMA prevents their labor pool from growing too large by limiting who can become a doctor in the US.


That's the dirty little secret of the medical industry. I find it utterly amazing that so few are aware of the monopoly the AMA has on its labor pool.

I always try to elicit a laugh, Darth.

Hmmm Brazillian chicken sells for $1.99/lb.
American sells for $3.39/lb.

(imaginary prices)

Which would you buy. BTW, the American chicken is more so that they can pay workers a living wage.

And....what if the American producer was permitted to put a symbol on his package indicating that he does pay a living wage. Would you go along with that???

The American chicken should have been $2.39/lb.

Hmmm Brazillian chicken sells for $1.99/lb.
American sells for $3.39/lb.

(imaginary prices)

Which would you buy. BTW, the American chicken is more so that they can pay workers a living wage.

Posted by danni


What would chinese chicken cost Danni? Would it come with leaded/unleaded branding?

Danni,

You want to try and blame this all on Republicans (not a big supprise coming from you. Take a look and see who runs all these sanctuary cities. They arent Republicans.

Danni asks:

And....what if the American producer was permitted to put a symbol on his package indicating that he does pay a living wage. Would you go along with that???


I don't know if that question was directed at me, but I'll answer anyways:


Sure, I'd go along with that.

That's an interesting advertising angle:

"Buy our chicken because we exclusively employ American citizens and pay them a higher wage than our competition."

As long as the advertisement is truthful, I am all for it. In fact, I think such an advertisement would generate success. Corporate America underestimates the loyalty and sense of patriotism that much of our populace possesses.

Sickoflibs,


I enjoy calling out Danni as much as anyone. However, let's be fair about this:

Danni,


I hate to break it to you, but the Democratic party turns an even blinder eye toward illegal immigration than does the Republican party.

Posted by JeffJ at 2007-08-29 12:36 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e


Jeff, I hate to admit it, but I do realize that.
I must admit, I am in a quandry about it.
They better get a clue pretty soon or some of us old time Dems will be looking for a new party.
I'm beginning to agree with the many who say there isn't much difference between the two parties.

Posted by danni at 2007-08-29 12:41 PM

And....what if the American producer was permitted to put a symbol on his package indicating that he does pay a living wage. Would you go along with that???

I like the idea but you understand that would never work. Everybody claims to be abidng by the law whether or not they do. Furthermore, it could cause resentment among many here who support the presence of illegals.

Again, I agree with the principle and would support it but there are a lot of negatives attached.

I didnt read further down the posts before posting myself, so I didnt see the post from Jeff. I will say the both parties are equally involved in screwing this up. Bush wants to keep them here (why I have no idea). Neither side seems to be able to make a decision.

there are many jobs that they fill that Americans would never do?

For what salary?

As President Bush has proudly pointed out,illegal immigration keeps the wage rate low.
So, no pun intended, its a chicken and egg deal. Illegal immigrant workers push the wage rates down to the point where average Americans can't live on them, so we need illegal immigrants to do the job. Which, in turn, prevents the wage rates from going up, cause its easy to replace illegals if they bitch about wages or conditions.

No problemo, Sick - I figured you hadn't scrolled up far enough to see her response.


Danni's had good stuff today.

From rightwinger Rich Lowry:
At least Bush wants to attempt to depress the wages of higher-skilled workers, too. He is proposing to expand the number of H-1B work visas for higher-skilled foreign workers, who tend to get paid less than their native-born counterparts. Alan Greenspan recently conducted a thought experiment. "Our skilled wages," he said, "are higher than anywhere in the world. If we open a significant window for (foreign) skilled workers, that would suppress the skilled-wage level and end the concentration of income."

""Furthermore, it could cause resentment among many here who support the presence of illegals.""

No one would be forced to by a package with the symbol on it. What happened to a free market???
And false advertising is a crime that can be prosecuted so anyone falsely labeling their packages would risk law suits and prosecution.

"And....what if the American producer was permitted to put a symbol on his package indicating that he does pay a living wage. Would you go along with that???"
--DANNI

I think a sticker stating the chicken was prepared in a clean American facility by Americans doing the job, subject to American laws regarding cleanliness and safety, might be more effective.

I'd pay more for that.

Danni,


What happened to a free market???


(In case Eberly is gone for the day)


I didn't construe that he was saying it should be illegal. He was saying it wouldn't be an effective strategy, and he laid out his reasons as to why.


Correct me if I'm wrong, Eb.

And....what if the American producer was permitted to put a symbol on his package indicating that he does pay a living wage. Would you go along with that???

I actually think it's a great idea, something in the line of being UL or ISO 9000 listed. I'm surprised that there isn't any certification organization or company that does just that.

It would be nice to know if products (made both domestically and imported) were made in factors with a minimum pay-level, benefits, and environmental impact.

LIVEORDIE, you wouldn't expect that a product produced by an employee earning a living wage wouldn't be more likely to be higher quality, or cleaner or whatever criteria because the employee would care about his/her job. I agree about the sticker saying American factory/standards, etc. but I think pay is an important issue too. Plus, if it became the norm all wages would rise.
Labor in this country needs to come up with more ideas to force employers to raise wages, a sticker could be one. I will guarantee you though that corporations would fight this idea like crazy, and they would frame their opposition in a way to make it a matter of fairness to the consumer.

No one would be forced to by a package with the symbol on it. What happened to a free market???
And false advertising is a crime that can be prosecuted so anyone falsely labeling their packages would risk law suits and prosecution.

Danni, you are trying to invoke one ineffective law to trump another innefective law......just to make a point.

sure, they can do it.....it is a free market. However, ALL of them will do it. Including Cargill, Conagra, Tyson, etc......the top 10 food producers in the country would all do it and you would be here screaming mad about it.

do you really understand what "false advertising" is about?

Oh, and BTW Danni, don't scream about the "free market" unless you really want it.......and I know you don't.


thanks Jeff!! You are correct.

Labor in this country needs to come up with more ideas to force employers to raise wages, a sticker could be one. I will guarantee you though that corporations would fight this idea like crazy, and they would frame their opposition in a way to make it a matter of fairness to the consumer.

Posted by danni at 2007-08-29 03:14 PM | Reply | F


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this an issue a couple of years ago with either dairy or poultry when a company labeled its products as containing no hormones or antibiotics? I seem to recall a whole series of lawsuits against them from companies that did use hormones and antibiotics, claiming the advertising implied their products were unsafe.

Does anyone remember the details?

Eberly, just because the lobbyists have, so far, been able to hobble any attempt to label food fairly does not prove it can't be done. This is just one more issue that show us the evil of allowing lobbyists to reward legislators with campaign donations, etc....and Hillary should quit lying and admit that lobbyists are an evil we need to eliminate. On that issue she is just plain dishonest.
God, I like her less and less every day.

Yeah! hehhehheh hehheh hehhehhehhehheh heh hehheh heh heh hehhehheh heh heh heh hehhehheh hehheh hehhehhehhehheh heh hehheh heh heh hehhehheh heh heh heh

Katie,

Recently a similar issue arose regarding beef.


A small producder wanted to advertise that 100% of their beef is inspected for mad cow disease. The stink came regarding the underlying message:

Their beef is safer because it's 100% inspected.

Cracking down on this plant will choke the chicken industry.

Posted by OohRah at 2007-08-29 11:31 AM

huh huhhuh huh huhhuhhuhhuh huh huh huh huhhuhhuh huh huhhuh huh huhhuhhuhhuh huh huh huh huhhuhhuh huh huhhuh huh huhhuhhuhhuh huh huh huh huhhuhhuh

He said "choke the chicken"

huh huhhuh huh huhhuhhuhhuh huh huh huh huhhuhhuh huh huhhuh huh huhhuhhuhhuh huh huh huh huhhuhhuh huh huhhuh huh huhhuhhuhhuh huh huh huh huhhuhhuh

"LIVEORDIE, you wouldn't expect that a product produced by an employee earning a living wage wouldn't be more likely to be higher quality, or cleaner or whatever criteria because the employee would care about his/her job. I agree about the sticker saying American factory/standards, etc. but I think pay is an important issue too. Plus, if it became the norm all wages would rise.
Labor in this country needs to come up with more ideas to force employers to raise wages, a sticker could be one. I will guarantee you though that corporations would fight this idea like crazy, and they would frame their opposition in a way to make it a matter of fairness to the consumer."
--DANNI

You're right, I'm not arguing with you. It might be a big sticker, but putting both points on there would be a double sell for me at least. They're higher paid because they're higher quality workers, in higher quality facilities.

"I actually think it's a great idea, something in the line of being UL or ISO 9000 listed. I'm surprised that there isn't any certification organization or company that does just that."
--KATIEBERRY

That would be the ticket right there. You guys are on to something.

""Oh, and BTW Danni, don't scream about the "free market" unless you really want it.......and I know you don't.""

On that you are correct sir. I want regulated capitalism not laissez faire.

Danni,


Hillary should quit lying and admit that lobbyists are an evil we need to eliminate.


Lobbyists do pose some problems, but they are also invaluable. Without lobbyists we'd likely have ludicrous CAFE standards - just one example.

""Their beef is safer because it's 100% inspected.""

Exactly. And it is bull shit because as consumers we should have the right to know if our meat is 100% inspected as Japan does for it's citizens.
Somehow, we aren't as good as Japanese people.

""Lobbyists do pose some problems, but they are also invaluable. Without lobbyists we'd likely have ludicrous CAFE standards - just one example.""

Yeah, we wouldn't need ANY oil from the middle east...that would be a bad thing.
Oh, and our auto manufacturers would be building fuel efficient vehicles that could actually sell overseas.
Oh dear, that would be horrible.

Lobbyists are cancer on America.
They are LITERALLY RUINING THIS COUNTRY.

"A small producder wanted to advertise that 100% of their beef is inspected for mad cow disease. The stink came regarding the underlying message:

Their beef is safer because it's 100% inspected."
--JEFFJ

I don't recall the sticker saying the competition was unsafe.

Government regulation is a double edged sword. It can keep false advertising in check, but also gives government the power to pull crap like that, where smaller producers are screwed and can't compete with the big ones because the government steps in and "regulates" them.

Was a decision ever made in that case?

Exactly. And it is bull shit because as consumers we should have the right to know if our meat is 100% inspected as Japan does for it's citizens.
Somehow, we aren't as good as Japanese people.


You are mistaken, Danni.


100% inspections for Mad Cow is a colossal waste.

Mad Cow manifests itself at a certain age and US cows are slaughtered before reaching that age - the occurrences of Mad Cow in cows below that age (I think it's 18 months) is next to nil. In addition, the mad cow prions are only present in certain tissues - brain and spinal column being the primary tissues. Essentially, even if a mad cow was slaughtered, the chances of passing the disease to humans (in the US) is next to nil given that the parts of the animal that are sold for consumption don't have the mad cow prions present, even though the animal it came from was a mad cow.


Seriously, can you EVER recall mad cow tainted meat being an issue in the US?


It is possible for government to over-regulate and gain nothing positive in the process.

Danni,

""Lobbyists do pose some problems, but they are also invaluable. Without lobbyists we'd likely have ludicrous CAFE standards - just one example.""

Yeah, we wouldn't need ANY oil from the middle east...that would be a bad thing.
Oh, and our auto manufacturers would be building fuel efficient vehicles that could actually sell overseas.
Oh dear, that would be horrible.

""It is possible for government to over-regulate and gain nothing positive in the process.""

But we aren't taling about government regulation here. This is a private company wanting to have their own meat tested and then label their meat accordingly. That should be their right.
Thing is, that is just an example anyway, we were discussing the idea of producers labeling packages regarding the employees who packaged that meat.
I personally think that if a producer labeled his products indicating a living wage, American factory, etc. I would pay extra to buy that package. And I think that should be a decision that the producer should be allowed to make regardless if his competition likes it or not and the criteria for the label could be spelled out clearly and enforcement could be paid for by an industry group paid by those who do such labeling to protect their "brand."

""You've been having a good day, but what I just re-produced is pathetic.""


Unless you review the fuel economy standards instituted under CArter and eliminated by REagan.
Those standards, many claim, would have required efficiency that would have resulted in zero imports from the ME.

Oh, and the wars associated with said oil.

Unless you review the fuel economy standards instituted under CArter and eliminated by REagan.
Those standards, many claim, would have required efficiency that would have resulted in zero imports from the ME.


You're taking far too narrow of a view on this.

It is back-asswards to, through government, force automakers to produce products that their consumers don't want.

It's a recipe for disaster.

What your source DOESN'T take into account (among other things) are the economics involved. The more fuel efficient the vehicle, the cheaper the cost of fuel to its owner. The cheaper the gas, the MORE the auto-owner is going to drive, which results in an actual increase in consumption.


IMO, the only effective way for the government to steer conservation is to increase taxes on fuel itself - increase the cost of gas and then let market forces drive the demand for more fuel-efficient vehicles. They'd also need to lower emmission standards so that diesel engines could be made readily available on passenger cars.

""The cheaper the gas, the MORE the auto-owner is going to drive, which results in an actual increase in consumption.""

That is not a good assumption. It is the same distance to work regardless of what I drive.
Fact is oil imports did get smaller, that is just a fact.
Increasing tax on fuel could work too, but I doubt that many conservatives would favor that approach either.
Personally, I wish Reagan hadn't eliminated the requirements, we'd be far ahead of the game today.

On this topic everyone is dragging their ass. Dems and Repubs, because both want the hispanic vote. We should put a Brigade of troops (if we can find them) along that border to supplement the border patrol, start kicking the illegals out as fast as we can, and build the wall faster. Eventually there will be less coming in than going out.

I frankly don't care about the economic ramifications. Once actual Americans start doing the same jobs, then they can organize, push for better wages, then they'll have more money to put into the economy, and things should get better.

"We should put a Brigade of troops (if we can find them) along that border to supplement the border patrol, start kicking the illegals out as fast as we can, and build the wall faster. Eventually there will be less coming in than going out."

if someone is willing to donate a barrett 82A1/M107 and a mossberg 12 ga. pump, i'll buy the ammo and take 1st watch. not that i plan on killing anyone. those are just the two most intimidating guns i could think of and actually hold by myself.

Considering how many legal aliens of Hispanic origin are in this country it is nearly impossible for employers to know if they are hiring legal or illegal labor, or at least that is the excuse I have heard. That brings up a point that I believe we will have to deal with at some point, that is a national identity card. Would you support such a card if it were, somehow, not possible to make forgeries?
Without one I think it will be nearly impossible to ever really get a grip on employers hiring illegal aliens.

Posted by danni

NICS can do a check on citizens that want to buy a gun, without a ntional identy card. Why can't the same be done with a social security number. If Jaun shows up with Betty's number, its back to the border.

This thread has been the funniest shit ever.

We have hard core republicans calling for a soialist government to protect workers and force high wages which would smother business. Let alone kill businesses by enforcing ridiculous fines for doing the job of the federal government.

On the other hand we have democrats who want to have the US miltary defend them against people who just want to cut their lawns at a cheap price.

Beautiful

I want every one you cry-baby libs to sponsor 1 family of illegal immigrants for life. That is, their rent, food, health care, education (for them, their children (in the dozens I suppose) and their mothers, fathers, sisters, brother, aunts, etc.)

(Oh, you want me and my fellow Americans to shoulder this burden? But I thought you were compassionate! Surely this you can afford?)

When you have 1 family of illegals in your basement that you sponsor for life, let me know!

After reading just the first few comments, I felt compelled to squeeze this in.

Chickens are plucked entirely by machine far more quickly than anyone. Alien or domestic.

In most plants, the only hand work is the first either live bird or fresh dead onto the processor.

In a modern poultry plant very little handling is done of raw meat by people.

Few if any forklift drivers and product mover ever touch product.

The crappy pay is for cleaners of floors to equipment.

"Unless you review the fuel economy standards instituted under Carter and eliminated by Reagan.

Those standards, many claim, would have required efficiency that would have resulted in zero imports from the ME.

www.sfgate.com

Posted by danni"

Now, why'd you have to raise that inconvenient truth?

Oh, and in 1980, when Reagan was elected President, the average wage for a meat processing employee was $19 an hour with benefits - and they were profitable nonetheless.

Now? Average $9 an hour - no benefits.

Americanunity--the reason is illegal immigrants--right?

There has to be fines to the employers to pay--heavily so they will be deterred in hiring illegals and good Americans can have better paying jobs--maybe not the jobs they would like--but better paying.

Furio--

If Corporate America was the problem with "chasing out" the natives from their own country--why would they come here if that is what they were running from??

Answer that ----Furio


Fine the shit out of the employers and allow the SSA to share the offenders of using false SSN with the DHS and ICE--and we would see some improvement!

And allow all the employees--no matter their status to sue the employer if the employer pays less than minimum wage. And I would even have the law changed to allow those illegals to get a green card and get in line with the rest to be permanent Americans..,.,

Murphy

Murphy:

Illegal immigration is a larger threat to our way of life than terrorists could dream of, the INS is poorly underfunded and is not in the business of enforcing existing immigration laws that address every issue we face in light of the present circumstances, something stinks.

When police get no response from the INS after arresting an illegal, and employers are slapped on the wrist instead of being knocked over the pocketbook til it hurts, INS - a division of 'Homeland Security' - is not doing it's job. The pitiful inaction of the INS against employers is the single largest cause of illegal immigration. They come here to work. Well, I know a lot of Americans who used to make a living wage who'd like the same opportunity again. Corporations used to make profits before this got out of hand. Now, they just make more at the expense of many for the benefit of a few.

By hiring thousands of new INS employees to be on the street enforcing already on-the-books laws, buying millions of one way plane tickets good for an immediate trip back to Mexico and other countries, and having a president who wishes to turn this around instead of turning the other way - we might stand a chance.

That's my take.

In this case you are right. Brazil is a global exporter of chicken. If the prices go too high in the US then we will import from Brazil. Real simple. We'll lose illegal and legal jobs then. Most likely permanently.

That is why the other thing that must be done to protect American jobs is INCREASED TARIFFS on imported goods that compete with goods manufactured in the US. The tariff should be levied at such a level so as to make the street price of the imported goods competive with the street price of domestically manufactured goods.

"I feel sorry for the immigrants, they are just poor people stuck in a bad situation. "

They put themselves into that situation by breaking the law when they entered this country. Would you feel sorry for a burglar who cut himself on glass climbing through a broken window in you house to rob you?

We should be charging them for every cent we need to spend on health care, etc. for illegal aliens. We should make it too expensive for the Mexican elite to condone and even encourage illegal immigration into the US.

Right, Danni. Send 'em a bill.

"That is why the other thing that must be done to protect American jobs is INCREASED TARIFFS on imported goods that compete with goods manufactured in the US. The tariff should be levied at such a level so as to make the street price of the imported goods competive with the street price of domestically manufactured goods. "

INFLATION

REDUCED COMPETITION

HIGHER COST TO CONSUMERS

ECONOMIC STAGNATION

Haven't you people ever taken an economics class?

Unless tarriffs are used to protect a fledgling industry or against foreign dumping for example they are always bad for the economy.

Simple, simple, simple economics

Furio,

Frankly, I don't care whether someone is just looking for a better life, or if they can cut my lawn cheaper (which is BS because the foremen or owners of these companies are white, and keep the profits anyway).

These people are here ILLEGALLY! Why is this fact so lost on most people? They're not "undocumented immigrants", or any other hokey name someone can come up with to avoid recognizing that these people broke the law! They broke the LAW! Send them back to wherever they came from and give the job to a citizen of this country who actually needs it. I doubt any homeless person who's white would turn down a job that pays 9$ an hour, and atleast it would be a CITIZEN who gets the job.

And yes, the National Guard is here to defend our NATION. They shouldn't be in Iraq right now, but that's where alot of them are. They should be here, defending our border from an influx of illegal aliens who want a job that could be feeding someone in your family.

If they're willing to line up at the border, take some classes and learn our laws, language, and history, then I'm sure everyone on this board would welcome them with open arms. Until then, kick their asses out.

The mental midgets on the right constantly get caught up on the word "liberal", which has been subjected to saturation bombing by "Corporate Broadcasting". This helps to create a false sense of differences and Democracy. I don't see that at all. Both parties are controlled by the same interests. There are small differences but they are hardly evident in the matter of immigration. On this topic there are more differences within each party, while the majority of both parties in co-operation with entrenched bureaucracies consistently implement policies completely contrary to our written laws.

We need top control our borders and enforce existing immigration laws simply to enhance the quality of our lives. We cannot afford to raise the standard of living of 5 billion people in the third world. Yet subscribing to this notion is a prerequisite to getting a pHD in economics (We shouldn't let our Corporations destroy their lives either through covert and overt military actions).

We do not need to further congest our roads and job market. But any politician who would discuss these issues from a middle class perspective is immediately attacked and marginalized in the media. Democrat and Republican, Liberal and Conservative, are just a smokescreen for Government of, by and for the Corporation.

The clearest, succinct criticism of BushCo policies are delivered by "True Conservatives". People who think Bush is a Conservative are fools.
The "So-called Liberals" (Clintons are excellent examples) have implemented Conservative,
Corporate friendly policies.

Immigration is an issue which should bring Conservatives and Liberals together. Instead politicians through the concentrated media use it as just another wedge issue. This will continue as long as ALL our media outlets remained privatized.

Nutcase has a point. Both parties are slaves to the same interests, it's just a matter of how the elites in each party attempt to portray the other side.

Republicans, specifically Rove, have trained the Conservative Right to believe that Liberal and Democrat are bad words, meant to describe the enemy, just as Democrats have chosen to portray Republicans as ultra-religious, or even anti-minority. This image plays into the hands of people like Rove, who then accuse ALL Democrats of hating religion. Of course the ultra-religious then use this to make up lies that lead people to believe that Christians are persecuted in this country, which is a definitely not true since they hold all the power.

In the long run, we're left fighting amongst each other on sites such as this (and it is entertaining) while the political and corporate elite pass tax cuts for themselves and tell us it's good for the economy, all the while illegal aliens are streaming into our country and being employed by the people who donate to both parties. Repubs want businesses to thrive because they think it helps the economy, while Dems want people to have jobs because they think is helps the people.

Unless someone is elected into power who will go against the status quo and demand some change, then nothing will ever change for the better. Alot of people thought they were getting that when they voted for George Bush in 2000, and we can now see almost all of those promises were empty.

""INFLATION

REDUCED COMPETITION

HIGHER COST TO CONSUMERS

ECONOMIC STAGNATION""

Tell that to the countries that levy tariffs on imported goods from the US.
Many nations exporting to the US have been accused of "dumping" goods here in the US specifically to drive our manufacturers out of business. We should be aggressively enforcing our trade agreements and making sure that we do not allow other countries to harm our manufacturing capacity, even if we have to resort to protectionist strategies because it is not in our national security interests to allow our capacity to be reduced. We must eliminate the power that international corporations have gained over our legislators through lobbyists. Federally funded election campaigns would be a great first step in that direction.

Mexican trucks begin to roll across America on Labor Day. Yay Bush voters. Thanks for selling out American workers. Yay for blue collar workers who voted for Bush...don't you feel stupid??? Yay for any workers who vote Republican...you are stupid.

You want your blood to boil???
See Teamsters Sue to Stop Mexican Trucks on Back page. Bush has managed to get his "test program" that will allow 500 Mexican trucking companies to deliver goods anywhere in the US....the sell out of American truckers starts on Labor Day.

I have to say it....I expect and I hope that American truckers VIOLENTLY STOP THIS BULL SHIT!!!
A blockade of roads would definitely be in order and some "education" for Mexican truckers who drive into the US would be in order.

If our governmetn won't protect our borders then maybe our people will have to do the job ourselves.

It's important to remember this will impact more than just truckers. It wont be long until we stop importing all this stuff from China through our West Coast ports.

Pretty soon, they'll bypass all of the expensive union labor and government regulations in Seattle and San Fran, and Chinese goods will be exported to Mexico, and then transported to the US via Mexican freight. It'll be a lose-lose situation for all of us.

INFLATION

REDUCED COMPETITION

HIGHER COST TO CONSUMERS

ECONOMIC STAGNATION