Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Thursday, August 23, 2007

On his return from a trip to Iraq, a top Republican senator called on President Bush to take the "first step" in a withdrawal from Iraq start bringing US troops homes before Christmas.

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If you listen to him closely it seems to me he's essentially giving Bush one last chance... make the decision now, or ultimately have it made for you.

"On his return from a trip to Iraq, a top Republican senator called on President Bush to take the "first step" in a withdrawal from Iraq start bringing US troops homes before Christmas."

YEAH!

Fucking Liberal Commie Pansy Emboldening the Enemy!

Sincerely

The Bushiets

YEAH!

You have to remember that Warner is of the old style (pre Rove) where political opponents always allowed one the opportunity to save face (as most real men do).

Bush however is too much of a Buoy Head to comprehend such manors and is ignorant to all honorable protocols (because mentally he is a child).

YEAH!

I will miss Warner ------- if only for the fact that Warner got a stinky pinky from Elizabeth Taylor, which earns much admiration in my book!

...Senator [Warner] called on President Bush to take the "first step" in a withdrawal from Iraq start bringing US troops homes before Christmas....

Four years later -- longer than it took us to complete the job in WW II fighting in two major theaters of war. Little late to join in on a welcome home party for our troops, isn't it, Senator? You should have been saying this almost 2 years ago.

The Republicans don't want troops in combat in Iraq after the summer of 2008. They'll pull the plug, blaming maliki, if Bush doesn't.

Elizabeth Taylor

You got that right.

Damn librul defeatocrats.

This is a significant event. The Old Guard of the Republican party are finally coming out against the Bush/Cheney Iraq policy.

Reminiscxent of the end of the Nixon presidency, one can only hope.

FUCK CHENEY AND BUSH...They are treasonous traitors who don't give a damn about Republicans, Democrats and America...

5,000 is the magic number.

Senator John Warner, the Armed Service Committee's senior Republican, had just spent two days in Iraq with Democratic committee chairman Senator Carl Levin.



Ooh nooooo! Levin got to him! He's been brainwashed by a lefty!

Fire up the swiftboat, it's time to take Warner waterboar....er..I mean waterskiing.

FF WHATSLEFT

Ooh nooooo! Levin got to him!

He's talking about reducing troops levels by 5,000 in time fer Xmas as a symbolic act.

The surge is largely a fiction made up of over lapping extended tours so it's unsupportable in the long term anyway.

Spud does see this as a step in the right direction but notes that it looks more likes politics than a substantial policy change.

Levin thinks it's time fer Malaki to go but Warner is still stick up fer him here.

Spud don't particularily like Malaki but can't see anyone who'd make a better replacement.

Be Well.

PS: Elizabeth Taylor had the most extra-ordinary eyes.

I guess we should rid ourselves of the antiquated idea of a commander in chief, and instead, get a whole big group of commanders in chief, so they could all get together and figure out what to do by majority rule and cloture and filibuster and all that stuff.

Meanwhile our enemies will destroy us completely.

Which is not a nice thing for our troops.

We should rid ourselves of the antiquated idea of a commander in chief that cannot be replaced simply because we are at war. Bush doesn't have what it takes.

I know it. You know it. His dog Barney knows it.

I think we should get a commander in chief who doesn't think winning a war consists of telling the Army to attack and then just sitting back and wondering why a full-blown Western democracy didn't just spring out of the ground. Dumbshit.

Congress - including Democrats - gave him EVERYTHING he wanted for four years. Blank check. He couldn't get the job done. If you think Congress actually wants to get involved, you haven't followed politics very long. The very fact that legislators are being forced by their constituents to act is proof of Bush's profound failure as a leader.

. . ."get a whole big group of commanders in chief," . . .

For the balance of Bush's term in office, at least. But I don't think there's anything in the Constitution that would allow that.

As for a permanent solution, I'm reminded of something I once read:

A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

All you Limbobots need to learn how to read and understand one thing. Warner is a longtime republican and conservative. You guys would keep whacking your head against a wall if someone told you it could be knocked over. Why don't you do a search on how Bush's analogy on Vietnam is all wrong?

REZ

Why don't you do a search on how Bush's analogy on Vietnam is all wrong?

Because it was instantly relegated to the "stupid column" the second the words came out of his mouth.

No search needed. But a laugh track after his speach was certainly in order.

Twin says, "Because it was instantly relegated to the "stupid column" the second the words came out of his mouth. No search needed. But a laugh track after his speach was certainly in order."

So, you can't control yourself long enough to contradict someone you think is a dummy? What kind of intellectual Georgie Porgy runaway are you? Need some help from Mommy?

TADOWE

>So, you can't control yourself long enough to contradict someone you think is a dummy?"

Actually, no. I'm quite content to let George Bush did his own holes.

It's always so much fun. The truth is I love George Bush. He's a walking, talking billboard for the Democratic Party.

Far be it from me to try to put an end to that kind of free advertising.

"hy don't you do a search on how Bush's analogy on Vietnam is all wrong?"

I posted a thread called "Bush's Twisted History DeBunked" on the Back Page that does just that.

Some partisanly blinded idiot says, "I posted a thread called "Bush's Twisted History DeBunked" on the Back Page that does just that."

No it doesn't! It merely denies it! For example:

"Hathaway said that despite the eight-year US military involvement and its heavy casualties in Vietnam, Washington was still unable to create popular support in the south for a government that was widely considered to be corrupt and unpopular."

That in no way refutes the contention that pulling out caused the deaths that occured IN REALITY.

"South Vietnam collapsed in 1975 not because American forces had withdrawn, but because the South Vietnamese and their army simply did not care enough about their government to fight in its defense, he said."

The South DID NOT COLLAPSE when US forces were withdrawn, but only later WHEN DEMOCRATS MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO FIGHT BY WITHDRAWING ALL FUNDS FOR THEIR DEFENSE!!!

And, again, this had no effect on the murders, near genocide, that took place at the hands of communist aggression in SEA, after the cowardly Democratics consciously abandoned a SEATO ally and allowed communist fascism a victory over democracy!!!

"So one of the lessons, at least for me, is the American tragedy in Vietnam is that military force by an outside power -- a power that many people in Vietnam viewed as an occupying force -- blah blah blah ..."

This does NOT CONTRADICT or disprove Bush's opinion and statements in his comparison, but you illogical, emotionally driven parrots of progressive nonsense hear what you want to hear and only see what you want to see ...

Defeat and loss in Iraq, so that the Democratic party can profit from subverting the success of this war against terrorism ... all for votes!

You real-life traitors, you scummy subversive anti-patriotic trash!

Some partisanly blinded idiot says,


FF

Exquisite FF for Tad the bloviator.

But, I'm sure his bonafides are much more impressive than those of the folks cited in the article.

Thar' she bloves!

Ted misdirects, "FF"

There it is, Ted! Right up there for you to read and analyze. So, reason why those statements (or any in the referenced article) disproves Bush's contention: that abandoning South Vietnam to communist aggression caused the death of untold thousands of civilians.

Really, though, I expect you to run away like all the other Leftist/Democratic intellectual Georgie Porgys. . .

So, I'll wait for you to sneer from the safety of your front window, as you stick your leftist tongue out at the boys with whom you cannot play...

Someone says, "But, I'm sure his bonafides are much more impressive than those of the folks cited in the article."

Wow! Now, I'm the subject, huh? Cool!

See? Any one of you could reason the excuses presented by the article's "experts" but you don't!?! Why is that?

Because their is no proof in anything said to contradict Bush's opinion that withdrawing caused hundreds of thousands, even millions, of deaths from communist revenge and suppression of democracy!

You are all lying to yourselves, and even more than to the public -- some of whom can see past your stupid claims of "proof"!

Please come back and continue to make me the subject, though. I love the fact that none of you has any ability to do anything more than repeat the propaganda distributed for you to squawk like good parrots.

Tad...National Geographic conducted a survey several years back and found that 80% of recent high school graduates didn't know whether we fought on the side of the North or the South Vietnamese. I think you may be trying to have some kind of civil debate with some of those graduates here.

Just says, "... I think you may be trying to have some kind of civil debate with some of those graduates here."

Civil? The cretins don't deserve anything "civil". They are puling cowards and rank seditionists (but only republican government) ...

They are so abysmally stupid, that they think they are capable of leading this nation into socialistic utopia . . . give me, give me, give me crowd who hate the rich for not giving them a luxurious life ... so they'll take it by vote!

Same sick crowd attitude that destroyed Athens Greece and plunged the world into a dark age that lasted nearly 2,000 years ...

Same sick crowd attitude that destroyed Athens Greece and plunged the world into a dark age that lasted nearly 2,000 years ...

Posted by tadowe


you need to take a history class.

dark ages resulted from the collapse of the Roman empire, and only lasted around 4 or 5 hundred years iirc.

and ironically enough the causes of the fall of the Roman Empire are similar to the condition the US finds itself in today, disappearing industrial base, empire wars on the peripheries, power limited to the few wealthy, etc.

They are puling cowards and rank seditionists (but only republican government) ...

Truth responds with some quibbling, "dark ages resulted from the collapse of the Roman empire, and only lasted around 4 or 5 hundred years iirc."

Oh? Then Athens, Greece wasn't destroyed by unfettered democracy? I'm sure the founding fathers would be amazed at that!

Of course, and according to PBS' documentary on Islam, they contend that it was Islam that relious state which maintained the knowledge and culture resulting in the Renaissance -- not Rome.

Indeed, most historians credit the Roman empire's rise as due to the support and culture of Greece, and that at the decline of Athens, it heralded the decline of the Roman empire, as its foundation in Grecian culture was destroyed.

What specificaly do you credit the Romans for achieving in enlightened government, society, education and longevity which did not reflect Grecian culture? How about militarily?

"... and ironically enough the causes of the fall of the Roman Empire are similar to the condition the US finds itself in today, disappearing industrial base, empire wars on the peripheries, power limited to the few wealthy, etc."

Total misdirection, but a good example of the spin that Leftist/Democrats can apply to revile anyone for anything at all ...

Total misdirection, but a good example of the spin that Leftist/Democrats can apply to revile anyone for anything at all ...

Posted by tadowe


actually tad, the only thing i truly revile are ignoramus's like yourself that start and/or support wars based on lies and half truths and then ineptly enact their wars of agression.


athens did not fall because of democracy but due to slavery.

Truth can't quite get there, "actually tad, the only thing i truly revile are ignoramus's like yourself that start and/or support wars based on lies and half truths and then ineptly enact their wars of agression."

Thanks for making me the subject -- a bit overdone on this site, but still a pleasure. I'm sure that you were a loyal and patriotic American during the Clinton wars, weren't you?

You get partial points, but fail in faithfulness ...

No surprise from the Leftist/Democratic war profiteers, though. I hope you all find uses for those 32 votes you gained in holding party above nation and while our soldiers are fighting to end terrorism, this very minute ...

"Subversion" is the byword for the Leftist/Democratics; unless a Democratic president is ending genocide in a war to protect Muslims, that is (not some republican liar who only claims to end genocide against Muslims ...)

You are only fooling yourselves in these responses making me the subject ... everyone else can see just how obsessively stupid and vicious you all are -- like a pack of hyenas or jackals fighting over scraps ...


Talk about total misdirection!

Tadly can rant ad nauseum on this thread without mentioning John Warner(Big R) or the significance of his support for practical reality over Bush fantasy.

How funny.



"So, you can't control yourself long enough to contradict someone you think is a dummy? What kind of intellectual Georgie Porgy runaway are you? Need some help from Mommy?

Posted by tadowe"

"Thanks for making me the subject "

Too funny for words.

Hi Corky, who says, "Tadly can rant ad nauseum[sic] on this thread without mentioning John Warner(Big R) or the significance of his support for practical reality over Bush fantasy."

None of that which was directed at me was in reference to the subject of the thread. So, why hold me exclusively responsible for replying to those who make me the subject?

I know! Why don't you, Corky the individual, state some opinion in regards to the subject of this thread, direct the comment for my response, and see if you we can hold a reasonable discussion; a give-and-take?

(Don't worry, Corky! I know you won't do that, so don't get frightened, okay?)

Thanks for making me the subject -- a bit overdone on this site, but still a pleasure. I'm sure that you were a loyal and patriotic American during the Clinton wars, weren't you?

TH: Actually I was as I am now, what is your point?

You get partial points, but fail in faithfulness ..

TH:your grading means less than nothing to me.

No surprise from the Leftist/Democratic war profiteers, though. I hope you all find uses for those 32 votes you gained in holding party above nation and while our soldiers are fighting to end terrorism, this very minute ...

TH: they are? then how come we are arming them? Or have you missed that news? You are aware Petreaus was shaking hands with and handing out guns to Sunni neighborhood watch groups or were they called local emergency reaction squads? or was it locally raised security formations? I cant remember the exact rhethoric, but I do know he was shaking the hands of sunni's with blood on their hands.

But since terrorists means whatever you say it means today, I guess that is ok.

"Subversion" is the byword for the Leftist/Democratics; unless a Democratic president is ending genocide in a war to protect Muslims, that is (not some republican liar who only claims to end genocide against Muslims ...

TH:smart wars, but that is irrelevant. what is relevant is that bush is a failure and a lying failure at that. Compare Iraq to Bosnia, Compare Iraq to the former Yugoslavia.

You are only fooling yourselves in these responses making me the subject ... everyone else can see just how obsessively stupid and vicious you all are -- like a pack of hyenas or jackals fighting over scraps ...


TH: really? you represent the failure that is the neocon administration, your blind mean spirited partisanship which is tearing apart our nation. Your ignorant hubris represents the stupidity of invading a soveriegn nation based on lies.

Tadly, STILL not having addressed the subject of the thread, presumably because having to read John Warner's capitulation is painful for him, should sit down and take two aspirin before he reads the following:


"WASHINGTON -- The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is expected to advise President Bush to reduce the U.S. force in Iraq next year by almost half, potentially creating a rift with top White House officials and other military commanders over the course of the war."

www.latimes.com


Where reality sets in, Tadly is loathe to follow.



taddly waddly wants ontopic discussion-despite his initial post which attacked someone for not arguing his way.

from the article: On his return from a trip to Iraq, a top Republican senator called on President Bush to take the "first step" in a withdrawal from Iraq start bringing US troops homes before Christmas.

TH:First step, HA, we have NO CHOICE, we have not the troops to continue surge. Warner is playing politics, flipity flopity on Iraq war.
IF IRAQ IS SO DAMNED IMPORTANT INCREASE THE MILITARY DRAFT THE REQUISITE NUMBER OF SOLDIERS< TRAIN AND EQUIP THEM AND SEND EM OVER.

from the article: I say to the president, respectfully. Pick any number you wish," Warner said. "You do not want to lose the momentum, but certainly in 160,000 plus (troops in Iraq), say 5,000 could begin to redeploy and be home to their families and loved ones no later than Christmas of this year. That's the first step."

TH: THis statement is filled with cognitive dissonance. either the troops are needed or they are not.

from the article: Let the president establish the timetable of withdrawal, not the Congress," Warner said.

TH: actually physics and mathematics will dictate. troops can either be there or not (physics) and we dont have the numbers to prolong (mathematics). universal laws dictate timetable. This can only be impacted by mankind by increasing numbers of troops or increasing their timeframe

it only took the deaths of 400 americans for the republicans to come around to the democrat's position of 6 months ago, Iraq is unsustainable.

The truth hurts this one, "TH: Actually I was as I am now, what is your point?"

That you support wars started by Democratics, but defame those started by Republicans, and although the reasons stated for both wars, are essentially the same. That is an obvious hypocrisy.

"... then how come we are arming them? Or have you missed that news? You are aware Petreaus was shaking hands with and handing out guns to Sunni neighborhood ..."

Whoa! Are you saying Sunnis are terrorists? Do you hate Islam? Is that your motivation?

"But since terrorists means whatever you say it means today, I guess that is ok."

I don't understand this? What definition of terrorist have I provided? None! A terrorist is a terrorist, and a terrorist organization is a terrorist organization! Sunni, Shi'ite, Wahabi are sects of a religion, and not terms that identify terrorists!

"... smart wars, but that is irrelevant. what is relevant is that bush is a failure and a lying failure at that. Compare Iraq to Bosnia, Compare Iraq to the former Yugoslavia."

You say that Clinton's war to protect Muslims from genocide was "smart", but turn around and claim that Bush's war to protect Muslims from genocide is not? Are you daft?

I'll leave the personal attacks and obsessive vilifications off, for brevity ...

And now we hear Pace wants Troop levels cut 50% by next year.

""You say that Clinton's war to protect Muslims from genocide was "smart", but turn around and claim that Bush's war to protect Muslims from genocide is not? Are you daft?""

How many Americans died in "Clinton'" (NATO'S) war????
Or is that not a significant statistic???
How many hundred billions did "Clinton's" war cost???
What was the outcome of "Clinton's" war?
Was it a bigger civil war predicted by many who understood the situation????


That you support wars started by Democratics, but defame those started by Republicans, and although the reasons stated for both wars, are essentially the same. That is an obvious hypocrisy.

TH: nope, iraq is a war of agression, I dont support that, they are not essentially the same.



Whoa! Are you saying Sunnis are terrorists? Do you hate Islam? Is that your motivation?

TH:I am saying no such thing, bush is the one who cant define what a terrorist is other than the person we are fighting today, not necessarily applicable tommorow. Please see the fact that we were fighting and killing these sunnis a short time ago now are embracing them.


I don't understand this? What definition of terrorist have I provided? None! A terrorist is a terrorist, and a terrorist organization is a terrorist organization! Sunni, Shi'ite, Wahabi are sects of a religion, and not terms that identify terrorists!

TH: of course you dont understand. Let me make it clear. a very short time ago we were fighting sunni insurgents in iraq right, terrorists. Now we are embracing them, arming and shaking their hands. get it? Everybody hates the bad guys. I do to. But bush and you cannot define them other than they are what they are.


You say that Clinton's war to protect Muslims from genocide was "smart", but turn around and claim that Bush's war to protect Muslims from genocide is not? Are you daft?

TH:Iraq was and is not about protecting muslims from genocide, it was and is (supposedly) about protecting america,you know wmd, fight em over there so we dont have to fight em over here, etc.


I'll leave the personal attacks and obsessive vilifications off, for brevity ...

TH: Like this?


So, you can't control yourself long enough to contradict someone you think is a dummy? What kind of intellectual Georgie Porgy runaway are you? Need some help from Mommy?

Posted by tadowe

TH: or this?

You real-life traitors, you scummy subversive anti-patriotic trash!

Posted by tadowe


TH: or this?

Please come back and continue to make me the subject, though. I love the fact that none of you has any ability to do anything more than repeat the propaganda distributed for you to squawk like good parrots.

Posted by tadowe



For Truth -- I make my insulting comments, on point, and about the point. Unless, I am the target of discussion, and then I reply in-kind, as I have stated I would do, and accomplish when it happens.

I like to contrast that with the inability of you Leftist/Democratics to do the same -- discuss the subject and however insultingly you do so!

You are all masters of personal attack, but fail miserably in any effective rebuttal to contradictions of your propaganda lies ... and that is pretty pitiful ...

For Truth -- I make my insulting comments, on point, and about the point. Unless, I am the target of discussion, and then I reply in-kind, as I have stated I would do, and accomplish when it happens.

I like to contrast that with the inability of you Leftist/Democratics to do the same -- discuss the subject and however insultingly you do so!

You are all masters of personal attack, but fail miserably in any effective rebuttal to contradictions of your propaganda lies ... and that is pretty pitiful ...


Posted by tadowe


blahblahblahblahblahblah

contradictions? you are so full of partisan hate everything is a contradiction to your mind.

"Bush's war to protect Muslims from genocide..."

Tadowe - maybe somebody should have told them that's what it is....

I guess that's what we were doing in Vietnam too?

Protecting simple yellow people from Communist genocide?

Because their is no proof in anything said to contradict Bush's opinion that withdrawing caused hundreds of thousands, even millions, of deaths from communist revenge and suppression of democracy!


Posted by tadowe

except...it was Bushwhack that told us a few years ago that there was no comparison between Vietnam and Iraq...I guess that was when Saddam had WMDs and the Iraqis were going to welcome us with flowers and chocolates. Man you are truly delusional.

You real-life traitors, you scummy subversive anti-patriotic trash!

Posted by tadowe at 2007-08-24 07:09 AM


Tadowe attempts to defend Bush's contention that Vietnam is a good example of why we should stay in Vietnam for ten years and until we lose 50,000 American lives before we leave. Tadowe contends that if we leave there will a collapse and trememdous loss of life and basically the end of the world as we know it...

Then blows any validity to any argument he might have had by calling anyone that disagrees with him a traitor.

While none of us really know what will happen if when we leave... What happened in Vietnam was not total collapse and the dominoes did not fall and we all know that we were lied to and mislead into going to Iraq in the first place.

We also know that Americans were lied to about Vietnam just as we have been lied to about Iraq. Iraq will end badly just like Vietnam did...the question now is how bad will it be?

And we all know that this Administration has used Terror and Fear and Patriotism to control, divide and intimidate Americans into giving up liberties and rights instead of Uniting and strengthening America.

We also know that the true Patriot is the one that can stand up to a Radical Regime and voice dissent in time of Conflict.

The Appeasers are the one that blindly follow a tyrant intothe abyss like sheep to slaughter.

Tadowe you are more of a shrill appeaser than a Patriot.

Try placing your country over President and Party and see how it feels for a change. Try shedding some of that hate...perhaps you would be able to see more clearly...


Re: Vietnam and "No it doesn't! It merely denies it!:" and "The South DID NOT COLLAPSE when US forces were withdrawn, but only later WHEN DEMOCRATS MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO FIGHT BY WITHDRAWING ALL FUNDS FOR THEIR DEFENSE!!!"

The myth of liberals losing Vietnam is constantly used by the right. If believed, in the long run it might have the same impact on the US electorate as the myth that Jews, socialists and the democratic parties in Germany caused Germany to lose WWI. That led to the Nazi era and to WWII. (I just reread a history of WWI, and the Germans really lost it because the Allies were stronger, but for some reason in the 20s and 30s many Germans refused to believe that fact. It was easier to believe the myth.)

First. Vietnam was never a member of SEATO, whose members were: France, Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan, Philippines, Thailand, United Kingdom and the United States, but it was considered a protected area under Article IV of the treaty, which refers to (exact quote follows): "the States of Cambodia and Laos and the free territory under the jurisdiction of the State of Vietnam."

Notice that it does not refer to South Vietnam but to the part of the total of Vietnam that was considered "free." It is useful to remember that SEATO recognized that Vietnam was one country, and that it was involved in a civil war.

Second. The US Congress never stopped all military aid to South Vietnam. From the period 1972 to the fall of Saigon, Vietnam was one of the largest recipients of military and humanitarian aid, and in particular we made South Vietnam's air force into the strongest by far in Southeast Asia. (You may remember that that air force was hardly used when the North Vietnamese invaded in 1975. This is particularly odd, since the NVA were using tanks extensively, and we all remember from WWII how effective fighters and bombers are against tanks.) A simple explanation is that the SVA army and air force were extensively infiltrated by the Viet Cong.

What happened, and from it the right wing claims that the congress cut off aid, was that President Ford asked for an INCREASE in aid for Vietnam only a few weeks before the fall of Saigon. The Congress turned that request down not because they were opposed to more aid for Vietnam, but simply because they thought it was too late.

Now the myth of the liberals losing Vietnam. Remember, please, that Richard Nixon (a Republican) withdrew all US troops from Vietnam, and Henry Kissinger, his secretary of state and a Republican, negotiated the terms of the US withdrawal with the North Vietnamese. Those terms were considered a sell-out by the South Vietnamese, and so the USA had to force the South Vietnamese government to accept the deal, by threatening to cut off aid.

Once the war was officially over, the US Congress refused to start it again. You could say that they had a hand in the fall of Saigon, by not authorizing new military action. Or, you could say that the first war having taken so long and achieved so little for the USA, they were reluctant to try fighting it again.

Subsequently to the fall of Saigon, the Khmer Rouge started the massive genocide in Cambodia. However, you cannot tie this to the fall of Vietnam. In fact, virtually all of Cambodia had fallen to the Khmer Rouge long before Vietnam. I was in Pnom Penh in 1973, and already we could hear the Khmer Rouge artillery in the distance. Laos had fallen to the communists quite a few years before Vietnam, so Vietnam did not touch off a spate of falling dominoes.

The USA leaving Vietnam had nothing to do with the genocide in Cambodia. Instead, many historians argue that the USA bombing and invading Cambodia temporarily led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge. They were effectively in control of all Cambodia except for the capital city, Phnom Penh, in early 1973 or even 1972. With that control, they COULD have started the genocide much earlier. And then, guess who stopped the genocide? Not the USA, not the UN; it was Vietnam that invaded Cambodia and defeated the Khmer Rouge.

Moreover, the obvious, Thailand did not fall; nor did Malaysia or Indonesia. And today, there is an Intel Corp. integrated circuit factory in Vietnam worth several billions of dollars and the USA doesn't have a habit of allowing such vital technical infrastructure in countries we think could become enemies.

Getting back to those who were responsible for the fall of Vietnam, some of Henry Kissinger's talks with the Chinese were recently declassified, and in one of them you can read him telling Chou En-lai (written Zhou Enlai these days)""and, while we cannot bring a communist government to power, if, as a result of historical conditions, it should happen over a period of time, if we can live with a communist government in China, we ought to be able to accept it in Indochina."

(The URL is
www.gwu.edu).

Repezat URL (It's not printing) :(http://www.gwu.edu/ ~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB193/ HAK%206-20-72.pdf).

I should note that this is an Adobe file. You will see the section on Vietnam starting on page 28 and running through the conclusion on page 35.

And regarding: "Defeat and loss in Iraq, so that the Democratic party can profit from subverting the success of this war against terrorism ... all for votes!"

This from a history of Vietnam:

October 8, 1972 - The long-standing diplomatic stalemate between Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho finally ends as both sides agree to major concessions. The U.S. will allow North Vietnamese troops already in South Vietnam to remain there, while North Vietnam drops its demand for the removal of South Vietnam's President Thieu and the dissolution of his government.

Although Kissinger's staff members privately express concerns over allowing NVA troops to remain in the South, Kissinger rebuffs them, saying, "I want to end this war before the election." (www.historyplace.com/
unitedstates/vietnam/index-
1969.html)

"I want to end this war before the election." now why do you suppose he wanted that???

Why does Warner hate the USA? (Asked by Lynne Cheney to the VP)

I saw this on another site and thought it would be relevant to the discussion of Vietnam:

daveb99 wrote:
Unlike George W. Bush and 5-deferments Dick Cheney, I served in Vietnam (1966-67). I was there when 500,000 troops were in and around the combat zone. What do you do when you can't get the job done with a half million troops? Send in another half million? President Johnson had all the forces he needed to weed out the VC and expel NVA troops. Until the Tet offensive in 1968, the American people were behind Johnson, too. We threw everything we had into the Vietnam War. Contrary to Republican mythology, no one knifed us in the back.

One of our problems then was the weak and corrupt South Vietnam government and its army, also weak and corrupt. Another problem was our embrace of the so-called domino theory. The domino theory ignored over 1,000 years of tensions between the Chinese and the indigenous peoples of Southeast Asia. We assumed, incorrectly, that the Vietnamese would gladly accept Red Chinese domination. It wasn't until the early 1980s that we realized how wrong we were about the domino theory. Now we are trading partners with Vietnam. Is Bush saying that is not a good outcome?

Today, in Iraq, we have another weak government. Today, in our own country, we have a bunch of theorists--the neoconservatives--who have tried to impose their seriously flawed ideological view of the world onto American foreign policy. In that sense, the Vietnam War and the Iraq War are similar.

If we learned anything from our experience in Vietnam, we should begin an orderly redeployment so the Iraqis can get on with their lives. It is their country, not ours. It is their oil, not ours. If we are smart and work hard at it, we might even have a good relationship with the Iraqis for many years to come.

We are not living in a Rambo movie. I don't know who is advising Bush to use the Vietnam War as a wedge to get his way in Iraq, but it is not going to fly. Bush's invocation of the Vietnam War is a loser's argument.

"We assumed, incorrectly"

And we're still at it.
Bush didn't even know what the Sunni/Shia rift was.

Bush's stupidity in this matter is tantamout to treason. He didn't think the matter through , refused to listen to live people and instead listened to his invisible eye in the sky which apparantly duped him into acting erroneously. He is desparately trying to save face and his legacy by trying to link Vietnam with the present situation which doesn't wash. The conservatives on this board are claiming cowardice by admitting the obvious not only by those who know better but by the examples of history that have taught us and that Vietnam is no way an analogy for what is going on now. The conservatives that advocate throwing more troops and money at the problem are no different than dear old Jeff Davis and those lone hold outs during the civil war that still wanted to make a go of it even though the writing was still on the wall.

Why is it when a Democrat proposes doing something for humanitarian reasons (Kosovo, for example), Republicans shout that it's not in our national interest, it's not our problem, it's a harsh world, people die, too bad, etc. and imply Dems are bleeding heart losers, but when a REPUBLICAN proposes something that MIGHT by some stretch have a humanitarian component, Republicans suddenly get all weepy and outraged at the Genocidal Left?

Seriously, where was all the Republican Outrage when Pol Pot was actually killing millions of people? I don't remember any. NOW, of course, they cry crocodile tears at the thought of the poor yellow people the Demon Democrats betrayed, and the idea of all the Iraqis that MAY be killed if we leave, indignant at the mention of the civilians we may have killed ("collateral damage, we don't count them").

How can you hold completely contradictory positions in your head at the same time and both make sense to you? I think there's a particular type of mental illness at work here.

Bush didn't even know what the Sunni/Shia rift was.

Posted by Zatoichi at 2007-08-24 05:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

He still doesn't. Nor does he recognize his asshole from a hole in the ground, or from his elbow.

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