Not winning hearts and minds, but exposing them to daylight!

Same strategy we used in Vietnam with such breath taking success. You would think that with all that money the Pentagon would be able to find someone who knows something about people and other cultures. But no, they didn't seem to know what a tough enemy the Vietnamese can be even though they kicked France out of their country and held China a bay for 200 years.

Oh, I almost forgot. The real reason we lost in Vietnam was that we curtailed our forces and didn't give them the support they needed. Well, this time old boys, the Swift boat excuse no longer flies.

No, I'm afraid the 'greatest military in the history of the world' is suffering from inbred idiocy and cronyism.

Same strategy we used in Vietnam with such breath taking success. You would think that with all that money the Pentagon would be able to find someone who knows something about people and other cultures. But no, they didn't seem to know what a tough enemy the Vietnamese can be even though they kicked France out of their country and held China at bay for 200 years
Well said
That sums up the VietNam War

And the Brits are leaving Basra in Chaos and controlled by Iran, SO good bye and good riddance,

Why do the Brits hate America so much?

And the Brits are leaving Basra in Chaos and controlled by Iran, SO good bye and good riddance,
Posted by HillBillyJihad at 2007-08-09 02:06 PM


YEAH!

Says the "Coalition of the Willing"!

But I must add for histories sake that as recently as February, Basra was hailed by Vice President Dick Cheney and every bushie wingding (including hillbill) as a part of Iraq "where things are going pretty well."

Oops!

Not winning hearts and minds, but exposing them to daylight!

No, I'm afraid the 'greatest military in the history of the world' is suffering from inbred idiocy and cronyism.

Same strategy we used in Vietnam with such breath taking success.

And you wonder why the Right gets so much traction by claiming that the Left is all about "Blame America First" and doesn't support the troops...

Let's see some other really supportive comments from the DR Left.

How come the people who make the loudest claims about supporting the President and the occupation of Iraq aren't in iraq?

And you wonder why the Right gets so much traction by claiming that the Left is all about "Blame America First" and doesn't support the troops...

Let's see some other really supportive comments from the DR Left.

Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-08-09 02:23 PM


YEAH!

As recent as February, Basra was hailed by Vice President Dick Cheney and every bushie wingding (including righto) as a part of Iraq "where things are going pretty well."

Care to elaborate?

And while you're at it, you may want to revise those assertions that a majority of Iraq is safe and prosperous outside of Bagdad!

I anxiously await clarification!

""And you wonder why the Right gets so much traction by claiming that the Left is all about "Blame America First" and doesn't support the troops...""

And...of course our military's denial is so believable considering the revelations about their credibility lately.
Let's as Mrs. Tillman for her opinion.

The Brits love making these claims. They can claim moral superiority all they want, but their history paints a very different picture.

The Middle East conflict as well as the India/Pakistan conflict can be traced back to the Brits and their tactic of divide and conquer.

How come the people who make the loudest claims about supporting the President and the occupation of Iraq aren't in Iraq?
Posted by rawbird at 2007-08-09 02:30 PM


YEAH!

And equally confusing is their assertion that we are "in a fight for civilization", where "our way of life" is under threat and the "fate of the free world" depends on victory in Iraq --- while at the same time indicating that personal sacrifice, service and rationing of resources to meet those ends is unnecessary?!

YEAH!

The beauty of having this as a signature tag line before the substance of the post is that I know that I can skip the ignorant drivel that follows it.

And...of course our military's denial is so believable considering the revelations about their credibility lately.

Keep it comin...

"How come the people who make the loudest claims about supporting the President and the occupation of Iraq aren't in Iraq?"

A lot of them are too old, a lot of them have conditions that don't allow them to, a lot of them have better paying jobs -- the reasons are many.

How come the biggest consumers of hamburgers don't work in McDonalds?

As recent as February, Basra was hailed by Vice President Dick Cheney and every bushie wingding (including righto) as a part of Iraq "where things are going pretty well."

Care to elaborate?

And while you're at it, you may want to revise those assertions that a majority of Iraq is safe and prosperous outside of Bagdad!

I anxiously await clarification!


There! Now you can address the question!

YEAH!

""a lot of them have better paying jobs""

You hit the nail on the head.
$50,000 signing bonus buys many a poor boy.

If we had a draft and we shared the risk and the sacrifice fairly across all income levels we would not be in Iraq, we probably would be in Afghanistan though.
BTW, Mitt Romney's reason for his sons not being in the military really should have been because they were all doing well financially and they don't need the signing bonus.
I don't mind at all giving the bonus to people willing to sign but I do have a problem with running an unnecessary war without asking for a sharing of the sacrifice accross all levels of income.

"a lot of them have better paying jobs"
Posted by goatman at 2007-08-09 02:49 PM


YEAH!

As if that's more important than saving the world from Islamofascist!


What good it that money when "our way of Life" is destroyed by the horde of "Islamofascists" that according to you is poised just beyond the horizon??

Once again your urgency in ACTING betrays the urgency of your rhetoric!

Why do y'all really think it is necessary to be actively involved in something you believe in or else you are a hypocrite? Do you depend on your sewage system? Then why aren't you down there maintaining it? Do you eat chicken or eggs? Then why aren't you in the chicken houses shoveling shit? Do you wear cotton clothes? Then why aren't you out there picking cotton?

It's a poor argument to suggest that if you believe in a cause you have to be right in the middle of it.

"I don't mind at all giving the bonus to people willing to sign but I do have a problem with running an unnecessary war without asking for a sharing of the sacrifice accross all levels of income."

Then go out there and do your fair share, Danni, if it makes you feel better.

"How come the people who make the loudest claims about supporting the President and the occupation of Iraq aren't in iraq?

Posted by rawbird at 2007-08-09 02:30 PM"

Cause they're pussies?

""Then go out there and do your fair share, Danni, if it makes you feel better.""

I would reinstitute the draft, thereby share the risk accross economic classes, eliminate the tax cut for the rich to help pay for the war.
If we need to fight a war then all classes should get to bare the burden, not just poor kids in need of the bonus bucks which are paid out of funds that we don't even really have.

BTW, that way Mitt's boys would probably either be serving or Mitt wouldn't be supporting this war.

"I don't mind at all giving the bonus to people willing to sign but I do have a problem with running an unnecessary war without asking for a sharing of the sacrifice accross all levels of income."

But if we did that these $50k bonuses (I think it's actually $20k, but I hope you are right and it is $50k) would disappear. Why do you want to take that money from a poor person who would otherwise have a difficult time obtaining it?

We should remember who brought us the "Volunteer Army."... Richard Nixon.
We should NEVER have an all volunteer Army.
We should have an army made up of citizens from all walks of life. We would be in fewer wars.

There! Now you can address the question!

YEAH!

Posted by Redneckville at 2007-08-09 02:58 PM

"Cleverly" moving your tagline doesn't reduce the ignorance contained therein. However, since you made the effort, I will attempt to address your inanities:

As recent as February, Basra was hailed by Vice President Dick Cheney and every bushie wingding (including righto) as a part of Iraq "where things are going pretty well."

Care to elaborate?

Well, things seemed to be going okay in Basra until the Brits pulled out, and even the nutjobs at Kos were pointing to Basra as evidence that the Brits could handle their region while "the inbred idiocy and cronyism" and "denial" of the US military couldn't handle Baghdad. Remember how the US military has been warning that all of Iraq would denegrate into chaos if we pulled out? The Brits made their point.

And while you're at it, you may want to revise those assertions that a majority of Iraq is safe and prosperous outside of Bagdad!

I anxiously await clarification!

I have never made that assertion, and for clarification, see above.

""Why do you want to take that money from a poor person who would otherwise have a difficult time obtaining it?""

I don't want to be in a war that would create the need to pay them $50K. If we weren't wasting billions in that war we could probably educate them so they could earn their $50K....and as a bonus...they wouldn't come home in a coffin....and 650,000 Iraqis wouldn't be dead too.

The Brits pull-out from Basra is just the effect of their facing the truth...whenever we pull out the inevitable chaos will result. Five years from now it will still be the same. Thus, what is the point in sacrificing hundreds of more Americans to achieve the same result??

How do you ask a man to be the last one to die for a lost cause?

Sad but true. Bush's invasion/occupation was initiated without considering the consequences.

"If we weren't wasting billions in that war we could probably educate them so they could earn their $50K....and as a bonus...they wouldn't come home in a coffin"

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, Danni. Some don't want to be educated. My son was one of them. He wanted to join the Army. He didn't come home in a coffin, either.

"and 650,000 Iraqis wouldn't be dead too."

Not by Coalition forces, anyway. Maybe it would've been better if the Iraqis were gassed like the kurds or summarily executed by Saddam's henchmen and dumped into mass graves.

"Well, things seemed to be going okay in Basra until the Brits pulled out"
Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-08-09 03:21 PM

YEAH!

See Below:


"For the past four years, the administration's narrative of the Iraq war has centered on Al Qaeda, Iran and the sectarian violence they have promoted. But in the homogenous south -- where there are virtually no US troops or Al Qaeda fighters, few Sunnis and by most accounts limited influence by Iran -- Shi'ite militias fight each other as well as British troops. A British strategy launched last fall to reclaim Basra neighborhoods from violent actors -- similar to the current US strategy in Baghdad -- brought no lasting success."

"The British have basically been defeated in the south," a senior US intelligence official said recently in Baghdad. They are abandoning their former headquarters at Basra Palace, where a recent official visitor from London described them as "surrounded like cowboys and Indians" by militia fighters."


"As recent as February, Basra was hailed by Vice President Dick Cheney and every bushie wingding (including righto) as a part of Iraq "where things are going pretty well."


Still doest jive with past statements, past articles and past claims by the administration and its supporters (that's you) righto!

"Bush's invasion/occupation was initiated without considering the consequences."

THis is true. So what do we do now? Sit around and play the blame game forever? Or do we seek a solution?

We recognize the inevitable truth like the Brits did. Prolonging the agony won't change anything.

"Remember how the US military has been warning that all of Iraq would denegrate into chaos if we pulled out? The Brits made their point."
Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-08-09 03:21 PM

YEAH!

Except the denigration into chaos happened before they left according to all sources!

"For the past four years, the administration's narrative of the Iraq war has centered on Al Qaeda, Iran and the sectarian violence they have promoted. But in the homogenous south -- where there are virtually no US troops or Al Qaeda fighters, few Sunnis and by most accounts limited influence by Iran -- Shi'ite militias fight each other as well as British troops. A British strategy launched last fall to reclaim Basra neighborhoods from violent actors -- similar to the current US strategy in Baghdad -- brought no lasting success."

See, the above in no way bolsters the militaries report, (aka a Bush's mole report) it in fact poignantly illustrates its inaccuracy!

"Remember how the US military has been warning that all of Iraq would denegrate into chaos if we pulled out? The Brits made their point."

650,000 dead.
The degeneration has been going on with us there.

"Why don't we just pay them enough to support their families without food stamps, to begin with?"

Good idea.

"Bush's invasion/occupation was initiated without considering the consequences."

THis is true. So what do we do now? Sit around and play the blame game forever? Or do we seek a solution?
Posted by goatman at 2007-08-09 03:33 PM | Reply

YEAH!

Says the "Personal Responsibility" Champion!

Yup, let's not waste time holding anyone accountable for the things they did, the lies they told and the consequences of such!

God the way you people shit all over your own talking points is incredible!

Great idea.

""Yup, let's not waste time holding anyone accountable for the things they did, the lies they told and the consequences of such!""

That is an issue I wish the Dems would start discussing at these debates. I want to know if any of them are willing to state that they will investigate and bring charges for crimes committed by the Bush Administration. I dont' think any will except perhaps Kucinich.

""Yup, let's not waste time holding anyone accountable for the things they did, the lies they told and the consequences of such!""

That is an issue I wish the Dems would start discussing at these debates. I want to know if any of them are willing to state that they will investigate and bring charges for crimes committed by the Bush Administration. I dont' think any will except perhaps Kucinich.

I asked:

"So what do we do now? Sit around and play the blame game forever? Or do we seek a solution?"

And though the following quote isn't in response to this question, it is clear what at least one contributor to the DR thinks:

"I want to know if any of them are willing to state that they will investigate and bring charges for crimes committed by the Bush Administration."

If major crimes were committed should we just forget about it???

What would you tell the 650,000 people's relatives??

Do we want a disaster like this to be repeated by some other nitwit who gets elected president??

I don't think that is playing the blame game, it is achieving a society that operates under the rule of law. How can we expect Iraq to respect the rule of law if our leaders don't?

"Yup, let's not waste time holding anyone accountable for the things they did, the lies they told and the consequences of such!"

Exactly. Let's fix the problem, then start the crucifixion march. Or would you rather do it the other way around, Redneck, so that we lose even more lives? Is it really more important to you that Bush is brought to task than to seek a solution to this dirty little problem?

See? This is a perfect example of how raw hatred and extreme politics blind people and keep them from making the right choices.

Priority #1 -- end this mess and stop the killing
Priority #2 -- hang the ones responsible

(unless you're redneckville, of course)

The Middle East conflict as well as the India/Pakistan conflict can be traced back to the Brits and their tactic of divide and conquer.

Posted by Sully at 2007-08-09 02:37 PM | Reply

Wait, I thought it was the Liberals fault! Yes, the ME turmoil can be traced back to British Imperialism. Yes, Blair says he was a co-equal in the decision to invade Iraq. Great, it isn't our fault anymore!

"If major crimes were committed should we just forget about it???"

No, Danni. See above retort to redneckville.

"Priority #1 -- end this mess and stop the killing
Priority #2 -- hang the ones responsible"

But, what if, according to the constitution, the one that has control of #1 is the one that needs to be held responsible...and until responsible you can't effectively do #1?

Priority #1 -- end this mess and stop the killing
Priority #2 -- hang the ones responsible

Problem there Goatman is that ya gotta do priority #2 to even begin priority #1.

Is it really more important to you that Bush is brought to task than to seek a solution to this dirty little problem?

Again witht the either/ or logic.

Either bring Bush to task or seek a solution.

Ya hafta do both.

Also, if the idea of the US regaining even a shred of credibility in the eyes of the rest of the world means anything to ya, ya might wanna seriously look at holding all of BushCo accountable for their lies.

It's yer choice.

Choose well.

Be Well.

""Exactly. Let's fix the problem, then start the crucifixion march. Or would you rather do it the other way around,""

No, your way is fine.

You are so blinded by your "get bush, get bush, get bush" at all costs mentality that you are forgetting what the real issue is, Danni and redneckville. Do y'all understand that? Don't y'all see how your blind hatred of one man is clouding your judgement and risking the lives of many others? Is the wise choice at this jjuncture to spend all our energy hating one man or is it a wiser decision to spend that energy seeking a solution to the war?

There'll be plenty of time for hating and crucifying later. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

Actually I think Goatman is right and my original post where I wanted the Dem presidential candidates to state their position was wrong. They should not warn the present administration now because we don't know what they would do, quite likely they would do something to allow themselves to declare martial law as Bush's new directive describes. No, let's let them think they got away with their crimes and hope they step down when their terms are up.

"and 650,000 Iraqis wouldn't be dead too."

Not by Coalition forces, anyway. Maybe it would've been better if the Iraqis were gassed like the kurds or summarily executed by Saddam's henchmen and dumped into mass graves.

Posted by goatman at 2007-08-09 03:31 PM |

Hey Asshat, we didn't go to war because of this. We were sold the war based on the certainty that WMD's were in Iraq and that Saddam would give them to Terrorists. We were told by the administration that we shouldn't wait until an American city disappeared under a mushroom cloud.

We went to war because the administration decided that they were an imminent threat and we needed to take preemptive action.

The administration didn't give a rat's ass about humanitarian reasons until we found out that the administration was full of shit.

So, don't pull that crap about Saddam treating his people bad as the reason for war.

Goatman, I'm agreeing with you. And I don't usually disagree with Redneck.

spend that energy seeking a solution to the war?

There'll be plenty of time for hating and crucifying later. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

Posted by goatman at 2007-08-09 04:08 PM | Reply

Again, if Bush was serious about finding a solution...instead of escalating and holding on until he could transfer the blame to someone else...I would agree with you.

There are many problems facing the U.S. Unfortunately, not a one will get dealt with until Bush is gone.

"Ya hafta do both."

Exactly, Spud. But to do one you need to have the cooperation of congress and the executive branch. Do you think the president is going to cooperate fully with a congress who is trying to hang him?

That's why this has to be done in a serial, not parallel manner. See priority #1 and #2 above.

If, they would just hand over that oil, we wouldn't have to hurt them.

If, they would just hand over that oil, we wouldn't have to hurt them.

"Goatman, I'm agreeing with you."

Didnd't mean to include your name in the second post. Got crossed in cyberspace. See time stamps. Sorry.

Don't y'all see how your blind hatred of one man is clouding your judgement and risking the lives of many others?

One man?

Have you been paying attention at all?

Cheney is the senior co-president here.

Cheney is the Chief War Criminal and architect.
Chimpy is his folksy and luffable meat puppet who serves pulled ham sandwiches and the like.

BushCo are like the A-Team. Dumbya is Face. Cheney is Hannibal. Richard Perle is Mr T and Karl Rove is the crazy pilot guy. There are many, many others behind the scenes.

They are a cabal.

It's not just one guy.

Learn that.

Be Well.

"Or would you rather do it the other way around, Redneck, so that we lose even more lives"

YEAH!

Its startling how deeply you are concerned about loosing life ----- but only when it's in defense of something Bush?!
Do you think it's not obvious?

""If, they would just hand over that oil, we wouldn't have to hurt them.""

So, basicly what their terrorists say is right. We are just greedy for their oil.

Perhaps if we didn't steal their oil they wouldn't crash planes into our buildings.

""They are a cabal.""

Everyone who signed PNAC is a criminal.

(that way we get Jeb...hahahahaha!!!)

"But, what if, according to the constitution, the one that has control of #1 is the one that needs to be held responsible...and until responsible you can't effectively do #1?"

You have to be realistic, Eric. Impeachment and removal from office won't work. You'll never get the 66% senate majority required. It just ain't gonna happen as much as we all wish it would. That being the case, why waste the time? Why not use the time constructively and work with the president instead of a vain attempt to remove him from office?

Or you could go the unrealistic route and spend the next year trying to remove him from office while our lads continue to die in the desert.

"Don't y'all see how your blind hatred of one man is clouding your judgement and risking the lives of many others?"

"One man?"

OK, Redneck. The hatred of two men. Does that make it better? geez

"Its startling how deeply you are concerned about loosing life ----- but only when it's in defense of something Bush?!
Do you think it's not obvious?"

No, it's not obvious. I am in defense of the soldiers in Iraq. What is obvious are your priorities.

"loosing"

BTW, though it is more commonly misspelled than spelled correctly, the correct spelling is with one "o"

the request was made by obama osama bin boo boo , the commander of the alqueda cheer leader squad .

"OK, Redneck. The hatred of two men"

OOps -- wrong leftie.

Redneck = spud

That's what I get trying to respond faster than retorts are coming in.

You have to be realistic, Eric. Impeachment and removal from office won't work. You'll never get the 66% senate majority required. It just ain't gonna happen as much as we all wish it would. That being the case, why waste the time? Why not use the time constructively and work with the president instead of a vain attempt to remove him from office?

Or you could go the unrealistic route and spend the next year trying to remove him from office while our lads continue to die in the desert.

Posted by goatman at 2007-08-09 04:23 PM

So long as we are talking about being realistic, let's examine the political climate: too many people on the left are blinded by their dislike for Bush, Cheney, et al., just as the right was frothing at the mouth over Clinton in the last two years of his Presidency. As a result, both sides spent waaaay too much time and effort trying to bring down the object of their revulsion and too little trying to run the country. Both Democrats and Republicans are guilty of it, so we all need to deal with the fact that the political circus is going to continue until the elections.

I think that once you get past the blame game most people agree that 1) Iraq is a mess, and 2) we have to help resolve it. Of course, some people can't look past their pathological hatred of all things Bushco (Larry, Danni, Redneck etc.,) but given the administration's attutude of late I can't say I blame them.

The Brits love making these claims. They can claim moral superiority all they want, but their history paints a very different picture.

Quite right, we were every bit the empire-building genocidal maniacs that the US has become.
Difference is, we didn't have depleted uranium shells to scatter their micron-sized, 4.5 billion year half-life, insoluble ceramic spheres of goodness around the globe. We didn't have White phosphorous, or cluster bombs, or bunker-buster nukes.

Secondly, 200-300yrs ago slavery was legal - the idea of "taming" the unchristian "savages" was widespread; the working-class got no education and to a large extent swallowed the elitist line.

What's your excuse?

""The Brits love making these claims.""

I seriously doubt that, you seem to forget that really the only sizable support in the war in Iraq came from the Brits. I don't think we can fault them now just because they recognize the negative impact of tactics Americans are using in Afghanistan. They aren't deserting us there, they just want our efforts to eventually pay off.
Don't make the mistake of thinking their exit from Iraq means they are deserting us in the real war on Al Quaeda in Afghanistan.

""The Brits love making these claims.""

I seriously doubt that, you seem to forget that really the only sizable support in the war in Iraq came from the Brits. I don't think we can fault them now just because they recognize the negative impact of tactics Americans are using in Afghanistan. They aren't deserting us there, they just want our efforts to eventually pay off.
Don't make the mistake of thinking their exit from Iraq means they are deserting us in the real war on Al Quaeda in Afghanistan.

Goatman stay offline you ARE TO fUC*IN STUPID TO BE USING ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES THAT YOU BE PLUGED TO ELECTRICITY.

""The Brits love making these claims.""

The Spanish were our allies in Iraq too. Till they got a new Prime Minster who figured out what a no-win situation it was and made a few similar claims. Calling the Iraq occupation a fiasco and saying that you don't fight terrorism with bombs and Tomahawk missiles just like this British commander. The rightnuts went ballistic calling the Spaniards cowards with Rumsfeld joining in muttering about "old Europe".

"Goatman stay offline you ARE TO fUC*IN STUPID TO BE USING ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES THAT YOU BE PLUGED TO ELECTRICITY."

Yes, I am indeed. That's why I own a kerosene powered PC. Bought it from an Amish family.

"Goatman stay offline you ARE TO fUC*IN STUPID TO BE USING ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES THAT YOU BE PLUGED TO ELECTRICITY."

But I am smart enough to locate the cap locks key on my keyboard on this primitive thing.

"Goatman stay offline you ARE TO fUC*IN STUPID TO BE USING ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES THAT YOU BE PLUGED TO ELECTRICITY."

This free speech thing getting under your skin, celisary?

And you wonder why the Right gets so much traction by claiming that the Left is all about "Blame America First" and doesn't support the troops...

Let's see some other really supportive comments from the DR Left.

Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-08-09 02:23 PM | Reply |


LOL your only getting traction among the choir. Meanwhile whats truly getting traction is the fact you dont have a clue. The right continues to get it patently wrong, and you can't even get it right about the beliefs of your opposistion. You effectively, don't know what it is, where its going, or where it even came from.

You can't even mount a proper debate to prior posts, best you can do is "play the rape victim".

But I am smart enough to locate the cap locks key on my keyboard on this primitive thing.

Posted by goatman at 2007-08-09 07:34 PM


FF!!

Also, if you are going to call someone stupid, you should probably use spell check first. I know I don't pluge in to electricity, do you?

What's your excuse?

Posted by BetterRed at 2007-08-09 05:21 PM

Ouch, that one hurts.

But I must add for histories sake that as recently as February, Basra was hailed by Vice President Dick Cheney and every bushie wingding (including hillbill) as a part of Iraq "where things are going pretty well."

Oops!

Posted by Redneckville at 2007-08-09 02:23



this is correct and proof of what we have been saying for some time......


THEY LEFT TOO EARLY...........and think about this exploding all over the region if we were to leave too early .......AS THE BRITS DID IN BASRA........

and remember we are taling about special forces here and they arent there to kiss babies.......and of course I would like some info on how many of these deaths ars actually caused by the enemy and their use of women and children as shields and political footballs.

and again here.........we will be issueing suicide watchs on several of or liberals bros here.

yesterday there were TWO positive bits of news from this war in the houston chronicle....

one said that sunni fighters were boosting aid to us in baqouba...........
"we decided to to cooperate with american forces and kick out alqaida out and have our own country" said a tough talking 21 year old giving only his nom de guerre, abu lwat.
and to the right of that is one about 32 being killed in a raid that was a militant network bringing in bombs and money FROM IRAN........


this kind of news has to make many of you nervous.

"Sunni Arab tribal militias outside the control of the elected Iraqi authorities."

And how does this build a strong Iraqi government that can take care of itself?