But, but, I thought everything was going peachy in Iraq, deaths are supposed to be down, etc. How is this happening?

Well, fortunately it's now August, so these four "numbers" won't add to the "low" July statistics.

Must of been dehydration.

4 innocents killed in the last 24 hours in east Baltimore.....

but according to our Mayor, everything is going peachy.....

She is a dem......should we pull out of Baltimore?

population of Baltimore last July 631,366

troops in Iraq 150,000

ratio of Balt to Iraq 4.21

4 dead in Iraq equals 16.8

if 16.8 Baltimoreans were dying by explosions and shootings everyday I think americans would be in an uproar.

of course perhaps with a $1,000,000,000,000 we could do something about all that violence in Baltimore.


truth hurts donut.

You're the only one talking about a pullout to date on this thread former. Get a new talking point, this one is soooooo done.

"""She is a dem......should we pull out of Baltimore?"""

No, but your dad should have pulled out of yo momma.

Baltimore, MD-----USA

Baghdad, Iraq-----NOT USA

Get it?



Stupid is not a positive attribute.

Yeah, I guess seeing innocents die everyday where i live, only behind Detroit per population is a bad talking point. try walking down north ave....

sad isnt it, and its NOT A WARZONE...

well truth, considering the REDICULOUS amount of state taxes I pay, i would think it would be secure. oh, and our wonderful dem run gov't is getting ready to hike taxes further up the scales......great!!!! more of my hard earned money...for what????

also two cops were shot on wednesday downtown....can't forget that one....

Pancho, I need a new talking point? HAHAHAHA, I think you all do when it comes to Iraq...

My point is made, and thanks for making it for me....

you all spew out numbers daily....so will i.....

well truth, considering the REDICULOUS amount of state taxes I pay, i would think it would be secure. oh, and our wonderful dem run gov't is getting ready to hike taxes further up the scales......great!!!! more of my hard earned money...for what????



so then you are on board that teh Iraq fiasco is a collossal waste of $, thanks for your support.

Truth,
Thanks for posting....I thought I lived in Iraq...

sad when my home is just as dangerous huh???

THATS MY POINT....You all bitch about the dead in Iraq, when more are murdered on a daily basis right here in the good ol' USA.

hmmm what do Detroit and Baltimore have in common?

hmmm former industrial cities that no longer have industries providing jobs for the locals?


hmmmm wonder what happened to those industries


hmmmm where oh where could they have gone

well I am sure republican politicians are all over that problem.

so then you are on board that teh Iraq fiasco is a collossal waste of $, thanks for your support.


Posted by truthhurts

While my fed taxes have only increased slightly, my state taxes have gone through the roof.

THATS MY POINT....You all bitch about the dead in Iraq, when more are murdered on a daily basis right here in the good ol' USA.

Posted by FormerLib at



of course, if we spent $1,000,000,000,000 on the problem, perhaps we could do something about it, you know, more cops, more prisons for hte righties, more jobs, more education for hte libs. Perhaps we could then lower that violence.

now where can we find that dinero?

and your local taxes wouldnt have gone through the roof because the feds are giving them less? or because of unfunded mandates? or the wonderful economy resulting from republican policies?

nahhhh

have to run

truth,
taxes are going through the roof for NO reason, ohhhhhh, and i like the gas tax they are getting ready to pass......bitch about the Bush and gas prices, and what do the dems do in the state??? raise the gas tax...

gota love it, and yes the truth hurts....

me too, even though i think you are rediculous....

enjoy the weekend.....

The word is swimmingly I think, thngs are going swimmingly. Former these criminals are in their last throes. Soon you will be able to stroll North Ave and have flowers and chocolates thrown at you. Soon there will be a banner that states "Mission Accomplished".

4 innocents killed in the last 24 hours in east Baltimore.....

4 cops were killed? That'd be the equivalence,
cause there'll likely be 50-100 dead baghdadites by tomorrow.

the DEMS want to abandon our allies...not surprising....its a war people die....sacrifices are coming from both our countries....but to abaondon our allies in a time of need is cowardly

North

This is just in Baltimore, not the entire country.

Truth,

population of Baltimore last July 631,366

troops in Iraq 150,000

ratio of Balt to Iraq 4.21

4 dead in Iraq equals 16.8

This is a completely meaningless comparison. It is passive acceptance of opportunistic data manipulation. And it can be spun either way. Let's change the geography for proof.

Population of Smyrna, Delaware last July: 7,837
Troops in Iraq: 150,000
Ratio of Smyrna to Iraq: .052
4 dead in Iraq equals: .208 dead Smyrnans

Someone died in a Smyrna car accident today, which equals 20 dead US Soldiers! ZOMG PANIC PANIC PANIC!

DEMS...think about body counts....but our troops thing about winning or losing

It's times like this I wish you could edit a post. 5. Not 20.

PANIC / 5!

And Judas, drop this alt, it's not working. And to tell you the truth, the troops think about lots of different things. Winning, going home, their dead friend, hot chicks, booze. Stop pretending they're photocopies of the same person.

Pleasant...i guess you do not understand unit cohesion...or brotherhood...you must not have been in the military....but why dont you just go and ask one simple question to any of our military folk seving in the sandbox....what matters to you the most a body count or winning and losing the war in iraq

the only reason we count the bodies is because of the hate toward our president and this war

the only reason we count the bodies is because of the hate toward our president and this war

Posted by judas at 2007-08-03 05:49 PM | Reply | Flag: Offensive, dumb, crass, unthinking, cruel, revolting.

The reason we count American dead is so people like you won't have such an easy time forgeting them.

yea because you know all through out WWI...WWII and korea all we did was keep tabs on the body count...becasue you know after that majic number....we pack up and go home...who cares about winning and losing (besides our troops) when we can count bodies and make political statements

if the normandy battle was fought today...we would have packed it up after 12 hours on the beach (body count war)

Or not count bodies and make political statements. Are you listening to yourself?

but i guess the normandy battle was bigger than a body count because we wanted to win...funny how politics can make war look bad or good

If we'd been stuck twelve hours on the beaches 06/06/44 Eisenhower may have well packed it up. Are you listening to yourself?

ZED...no you just cant read

thats where you are wrong we would not have packed it up....we would just attack in another direction

Twelve hours on the beaches and Rommel would have likely had his Panzers there, as he was waiting to do. I read fine. We just don't live in the same time-space continuum.

Judas-
re: the only reason we count the bodies is because of the hate toward our president and this war

You're a sick one, dude. You think the only reason we count our dead is...

just nevermind. Go put a yellow ribbon on your car or something.

but according to you the thousands lost on the beaches would have been enough dead bodies to stomach....so we would not have finnished the battle muchless continue the war

ZED...rommel was at a party and he did not have the authority to use the panzers that was hitler call...read a history book

Clausewitz stated, to paraphrase: "Don't throw good money after bad". You, sir, are just brave enough with the lives of others to lose a war.

Rommel had his own Panzers, although Hitler insisted on keeping the reserve under his personal authorization.

The fact is, there was a Panzer offensive against Normandy withi a couple of days. If they had gotten it there to the beaches with our men piled up there it would have been slaughter.

Yeah go put a Yellow Ribbon on Your car and screw up Your paint Job.


Larry

ZED...by the time rommel returned to the front the beach was taken ....their war really no way the the panzers could move without being spoted in the air(of which we own control of)...at that point it was a defensive war for rommel

ZED....losing wars is in your mind frame not mine....run along now....im sure you have bodies to count and political statment to make...which i doubt any statment has the word victory in it

when did we declare on iraq?

no comparison

Yeah go put a Yellow Ribbon on Your car and screw up Your paint Job.


Larry

Posted by LarryMohr at 2007-08-03 06:35 PM

Larry go take a LBP Pill and quit taking your stupid pills.

Pleasant...i guess you do not understand unit cohesion...or brotherhood...you must not have been in the military....

Well, I'm not allowed to serve my country. Have you been in the military? Where did you serve?

ZED....losing wars is in your mind frame not mine....run along now....im sure you have bodies to count and political statment to make...which i doubt any statment has the word victory in it

Posted by judas at



dead americans are counted to remind you the cost of what is happening in Iraq. you measure against gains to establish a cost benefit value for what you are doing.

since noone establishes realistic benefits we are left with a ratio of 3656:0 which IIRC In ordinary (real number) arithmetic, the expression has no meaning.

losing wars is in your mind frame not mine


losing is in the realm of reality, you appear to be in the faith based realm of accomplishments

ANYbody who swallows the Bush doctrine that we are "freeing" Iraq as we "freed" Germany and "freed" Japan would have to remind me at what point did Iraq declare war on us, before I would even respond, except to say this.

am I the only one that drives detroit in a armored humvee and wear a flak jacket to the local farmers market?

Yes, audrey you probably are. It's a piece of shit statement you are making. I'll be at the Eastern Market (you'd know the real name and use it which shows you are talking SHIT) this Sunday. My girlfriend goes every other week. It is safe, fun and a thriving environment. To tell people it isn't is disengenuous you POS.

PLESANt...its ok you were not in the military...its not for everybody....but at least it lets me know you have no clue in what you are talking about

Fair enough. Where did you serve, Judas?

Sure the beaches were taken, Judas. But I'm trying to respond to your worldview, which has American forces attacking every which way no matter what. I think you're bright enough to see the limitations of this, really.

Losing wars is far, far away from my mind-frame. I'm not an expert, but I could have told Bush how NOT to lose this one. So could have millions of others. Now we're getting to why Iraq makes us all so angry.

but at least it lets me know you have no clue in what you are talking about -Judas

So I guess that would mean Dick (Other Priorities) Cheney has no clue in what he is talking about.

Oh...

Bush was and is damaged goods. He may well be mentally ill. He was and is like a kid playing with his daddy's guns. The difference is he's never the one that gets hurt by his bad judgment.

ZED...Losing wars is far, far away from my mind-frame. I'm not an expert, but I could have told Bush how NOT to lose this one. So could have millions of others.


you just said this war is lost...tell me the condition of our defeat...i would like to know

"The difference is he's never the one that gets hurt by his bad judgment."

Posted by Zed


Game's not over.

SIT...cheney do not have to know anythindg but how to run a country....he has general that are in charge of that

Judas---Before I say anything else---Tell me in concrete terms what victory in Iraq is for George Bush.

you just said this war is lost...tell me the condition of our defeat...i would like to know

Posted by judas at



there is no victory, there is no defeat.

those are meaningless constructs when applied to iraq.

get used to it.

ZED...the POTUS has told you the terms time and time again along with most of our generals....if your politics bind you so much to where you can not accept their terms of victory...then maybe we should end this conversation now...because you are starting to enter the relm of bullshit politics

YRUTH...im done dancing with you...im tired of your bullshit...goodnight

Judas---I have no freaking idea what Bush thinks victory in Iraq is, and there's not been a single day of my life since March, 2002, when I realized he would invade that country that I have known.

so your definition is the old stable country that can defend itself that is an ally in the war on terror? that recent definition, (funny how I never saw a congressional resolution to that effect).

so your definition is the shiites and sunnis in iraq getting along and not fighting?

kind of like we had under saddam.

it will never happen.

PERIOD.

and even if it somehow did.

how is that beneficial to america?

Iran has a stable govt that can defend itself. if we were in Iran now should we wait until the govt was our ally?

your definition is meaningless.

judas, I suspect you are leaving because you cannot honestly debate the subject

but yes only 2x as many casualties this July as last is a sign of progress.

ZED...if you never looked into the victory condtions set by our government and the conditions for our troops to return home...and you spout off the political bullshit that you do....not only are you a political hack.....but you are an idiot also...goodnight

TRUTH....no i just can not speak idiot...if you want to delfect and waste time...then go bother somebody else with your political bullshit....im sure that you can find alot of poeple on this site that will shake thier heads up and down to your every word

so you cannot repeat it? again I suspect you are at a loss to defend your position.

definition is the old stable country that can defend itself that is an ally in the war on terror


that is bush's definition, I think I made a reasonable argument that that is foooey

sad when my home is just as dangerous huh???

THATS MY POINT....You all bitch about the dead in Iraq, when more are murdered on a daily basis right here in the good ol' USA.

Posted by FormerLib at 2007-08-03 05:01 PM

hmmm were those cops or soldiers under arms there in Baltimore?

hmmm I suggest you get the hell out of Baltimore FormerHuman now!

So, yes, to answer your naive question I suggest You should Pullout now!

And we don't even have crime like that where I live or I would leave too...amazing how that works. And are you suggesting the Terrorist or Al-Qaeda are just plain old criminals?

Your Butt buddy Bush won't be happy to hear you talking like that!

But the poor ole Iraqi's can't just leave tho can they? (the ones that could already left!)

so since we don't belong there maybe we should?

TRUTH...you are so out there...i never made any defintion...you did that yourself...does your politics have you confused...does not surprise me...when you hate something with such a passion...its easy to make things up and turn thing around... to where you do not even know what your argument was or what you will argue next...not surprising

ZED...the POTUS has told you the terms time and time again along with most of our generals....if your politics bind you so much to where you can not accept their terms of victory...then maybe we should end this conversation now...because you are starting to enter the relm of bullshit politics

Posted by judas at


am I wrong in characterizing bush's current definition of victory?

TRUTH...because you do not accept his condtions of victory...does not meant there are no conditions.....but what are your conditions of our defeat...im sure you have some since you beileve with the peanut gallery that the war is lost...im sure you do not even think iraq is our ally

please read what I wront earlier, victory and defeat are meaningless in iraq.

i get it you dont understand that fact.

it is not a matter of accepting or not accepting conditions of victory.

stable country that can defend itself.

whatever, the Soviet Union fulfilled that definition, as did Hitler's Germany

to gain victory all we need is for shiite and sunni to get along.

ok

all we need for victory is the invention of a perpetual motion machine.

all we need for victory is for dogs and cats to lay down together.

so shiites and sunnis get along, they magically put their differences aside and form a goberment.

ummm dont you think that they will hold some lasting bitterness to the country that tore their society apart?

given the fact that only 1 in 3 children attend school and 1 in 2 people hold a job and 1 in 2 people even have sanitary sewers I wouldnt hold my breath.

civil war is healthy for a society that spent 35 years in oppression...i do not blame them..if you think oppression is the answer to peace...maybe you should be on the recieving end of oppression...and come back and talk to me later...America did not become free over night...and neither will this country...so go out eat McDonalds...because you live in a fast pace society and want things over night does not mean every country will work that way...McDonald wars...Mcdonald governments....and Mcdonald life is what you are use to...so shut up and eat your Mcdonalds

Judas-
I thought that it wasn't a civil war.

War isn't "healthy", and civil war is not "victory". Alice, meet Looking Glass.

BOYD....who said its not a civil war????

ZED...war is healthy for those who are oppressed and i never said civil war was victory.....YOU NEED TO LEARN TO READ...HELL at least comprehend

I don't think Zed is the one with the learning deficiency.

NO ALEX...its you that cant learn...go away you are in middle of the conversation...you did not read the thread....you will probably end up cherry picking my post and commenting on them out of context...you are a day late and a dollar short

Judas must not understand anything. First off true the Iraqis under Saddam were scared they had more rights than they do now. Talk about being Oppressed. Now they have ran to Syria for a refuge. Funny that with all Saddam's Faults they weren't leaving the Country in droves like they are today. Oh and the reason why they are in a civil war is because they are fighting for supremacy. THAT is why they are in a civil war it's a power struggle to determin who will be victorious. There was a story here at the Drudge Retort stating as much. You really need to get a clue and oh stop trolling for a fight.

Larry

LARRY...FUCK OFF...i stayed on topic most of the thread....so go eat shit and die...i do not have respect for you or your comments...find somebody else to bother... call names and label

Someone's Tamp On must be in too tight. Try some lube next time.

Larry

LARRY... i would have lube if you did not steal it to fuck animals (SORRY RCADE THIS GUY IS STALKING ME)

Stalking YOU Puhlease. I wouldn't stalk You if You was the LAST person on earth.

Larry

TO ALL IDOIT RETORTS OUT THERE....IF YOU THINK THE ONLY WAY TO SECURE IRAQ IS TO OPPRESS IRAQIS...THEN IM SURE OUR MILITARY WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM IN KILLING AS MANY PEOPLE AS IT TAKES TO CREATE ENOUGH FEAR...IN ORDER TO CREATE A PEACEFUL IRAQ...BUT YOU HAVE TO GO TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN NOW TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN.... MASS GRAVE NO PROBLEM....EXECUTIONS IN THE STREETS NO PROBLEM...TORTURE IN THE JAILS NO PROBLEM...OUR TROOPS CAN OPPRESS AND KILL BETTER THAN SADDAMM COULD EVER DO IT YOU JUST HAVE TO GIVE THEM THE CHANCE

Judas-
I guess I should tell you that you've lost your mind. (and misspelled "idiot", all in caps)

Now can we have a translation of what any of that means or shall we just say good night.

I think Judas supports the Bush/Cheney policy.

So he's both incomprehensible and contemptible.

IDOIT

Wozzit?

Some kinda maladroit idiot or sommat?

Be Well.

Me thinks Judas is in fact Jackass.

Larry

SIT...shut up you contributed nothing to this conversation...so fine goodnight ...BOYD....you have yet to answer my question...which does not surprise me...like i said byod you use to be a cool guy...but to say im losing my mind is like whos calling the keetle black

LARRY... and you are in fact a DUMBASS

SIT...shut up you contributed nothing to this conversation...so fine goodnight - Judas

Sorry you missed a few previous posts subtly pointing out that you are a complete idiot,

But sublety is not your forte, is it?

"Me thinks Judas is in fact Jackass."

Well, one way or the other, he claimed in one thread to be both a marine, and a general in the army.

DAN...you are another person that cherry picks post without reading the thread....you might be able to read... but you sure can not comprehend....goodnight

Judas-
re: like i said byod you use to be a cool guy...but to say im losing my mind is like whos calling the keetle black

Allow me: "...like I said Boyd, you used to be a cool guy...but to say I'm losing my mind is like [the pot] calling the kettle black."

BOYD...OH im sorry you want me to spell everything out for you correctly...i would never really expect the same from you because i do not give a flying fuck about your grammer or spelling...but like i said earlier today...spell checking is the last stance in a losing argument...i guess you have nothing worth saying... goodnight

IN THE END...this will not be the last war where judgment is clouded...war crimes will always live on...emotions run high on the battlefield...which is expected...our troop are killing people...people are killing our troops (who call concider each other brothers)...so one way or another somebody will reach thier breaking point...i think that this is one of the cost of war...and to judge that in a political way...or to use it to grandstand for the antiwar effort is dishonest...our troops do the best that they can... to fight in a difficult war...at least cut them some slack

WHY DO PEOPLE THINK THAT VICTORY IN IRAQ IS A REPUBLICAN IDEA????

Judas-
Nice idea. If Republicans had done something other than turn Iraq into a clusterfuck with no good options, it might be more than a nice idea.

Judas, whatever Bush leaves in Iraq in January of 2009 will be victory. He'll be glad to explain that to you when the time comes.

""WHY DO PEOPLE THINK THAT VICTORY IN IRAQ IS A REPUBLICAN IDEA????""

I don't think victory in Iraq is a Republican idea, I KNOW failure and defeat in Iraq are what the Republicans have achieved. Getting them to admit it is another thing all together. They willingly sacrifice the lives of soldiers in a cause that they know is doomed. Disgusting. Blood on their hands, more every day.

Victory in Iraq is a REPUBLICAN MYTH!

"hmmmm wonder what happened to those industries"

eaten up by union greed

wrong

why do you hate middle class americans? I mean that is who unions are?

guess better for the profits to go to the wealthiest

"eaten up by union greed"
Posted by goatman

*sigh*

Yet another idiot who never considererd the fact there are two sets of signatures on every agreement.

And since management a) signed the contracts, and b) actually ran the business, it's a little disengenuous to blame the hired help who did exactly as they promised.

considererd = considered

First Rule of Blogging: If you're going to call someone an idiot, at least spell it correctly.

My apologies.

The Fall Of Rome:

Arnold J. Toynbee and James Burke
In contrast with the "declining empire" theories, historians such as Arnold J. Toynbee and James Burke argue that the Roman Empire itself was a rotten system from its inception, and that the entire Imperial era was one of steady decay of institutions founded in Republican times. In their view, the Empire could never have lasted without radical reforms. The Romans had no budgetary system and thus wasted whatever resources they had available. The Roman economy was basically Raubwirtschaft, plunder economy, which was based on looting existing resources rather than producing anything new. The Empire relied on booty from conquered territories (this source of revenue ending, of course, with the end of Roman territorial expansion) or on a pattern of tax collection that drove small-scale farmers into destitution (and onto a dole that required even more exactions upon those who could not escape taxation), or into dependency upon a landed lite exempt from taxation.

An economy based upon slave labor precluded a middle class with purchasing power. The Roman Empire produced few exportable goods. Material innovation, whether through entrepreneurialism or technological advancement, all but ended long before the final dissolution of the Empire. Meanwhile the costs of military defense and the pomp of Emperors continued. Financial needs continued to increase, but the means of meeting them steadily eroded. By the late fifth century the barbarian conqueror Odoacer had no use for the formality of an Empire upon deposing Romulus Augustulus and chose neither to assume the title of Emperor himself nor to select a puppet, although legally he kept the lands as a commander of the Eastern Empire and maintained the Roman institutions such as the consulship. The formal end of the Roman Empire corresponds with the time in which the Empire and the title Emperor no longer had value.

In a somewhat similar vein, Joseph Tainter argues that the Empire's collapse was caused by a diminishing marginal return on investment in complexity, a limitation to which most complex societies are eventually subject.


Things That Make You Say Hmmmmm......

-Sarge

same thing happened to the Spanish Empire