Them damn socialists!

Don't worry, Herr Bush will veto the bill because we can't afford health care for kids because we need to invade countries that never attacked us.
I can hardly wait to hear the Rethuglicans running for reelection explain why they didn't assist Dems in overriding the veto.

Don't worry, Herr Bush will veto the bill

Don't worry, bipartisan support of the bill will override his veto crayon.

I am so damn tired of this "every child deserves a chance unless it involves raising taxes" mentality.

I hope you are right Pville.

I really don't see anyway around this issue. Companies don't want to provide healthcare bennefits anymore. And if you don't do preventive care, you only pay more at the ER level.

It's cheaper in the long run to pay for kids to get their vacinations and checkups, to avoid paying for hospitalizations.

This is a burden off corporations. They don't have to insure kids, which they didn't want to do anyway (or else they would have done it and we wouldn't have an issue) and can focus on their business.

And the government will take care of preventive care to save costs long term.

How does the bill define "children" ? Are people upto 25 years old "children" ? If so, are we sending children to fight in Iraq?

Why does President Bush hate children?

I like the House version better.

This is pretty much the only type of socialized health care I can get behind. This and for the handicapped. IMO adults should have to take care of themselves, but children should be covered. Once you turn 18 its sink or swim, but until then every child should have access to healthcare.

Rob, you don't really need to post. Just put your name and everyone already knows you are against anything that will help anyone.

Sorry to be a lazy bum.

Could someone post links to the two bills?

Eighteen if fine. Dems are trying to expand health care coveage to 25-year-olds and some Dems also want 55-year-olds to get it.

I was thinking about this whole health care thing. Where does it end? Suppose we get socialize "free" healthcare, what's next for Dems? Is it free college, free housing, what? Where does this end? After all, both college and housing are very expensive and you can't get a decent job, for the most part, without college, and housing is certainly on a par with health care right? How long until we hear arguments about real estate should not be profit driven?

And how are they paying for it?

Higher cigarette taxes. Sooner or later they'll have to find a new group of people to shit on every time they need a few billion.

Member-

The bill is aimed at helping children of the working poor who cannot afford healthcare. Do you have a problem with helping those people? The only thing you need to do to avoid helping them is not buy a pack of cigarettes.

The amount spent on wasteful things like foreign aid, the war in Iraq, and everything else that does nothing for America surpasses this by billions if not trillions on an annual basis. Keeping children healthy is good for America - it ensures a healthy workforce later on. Think of it as an investment.

Joe, I agree with Rob, once people reach 18, they are not children, but rather consenting adults that can go off and fight wars if they want, although they can't have a beer at a bar when they return from war, but that's a different story.

""I was thinking about this whole health care thing. Where does it end? Suppose we get socialize "free" healthcare, what's next for Dems? Is it free college, free housing, what?""

More imaginary fears from the conservatives.
When they can't come up with an intelligent argument against national health care they just make up problems that don't even exist and have not been even suggested.

Free housing....yeah...tell us who is pushing for that
Free college....give me the names of some Congressmen pushing for that.

""I was thinking about this whole health care thing. Where does it end? Suppose we get socialize "free" healthcare, what's next for Dems? Is it free college, free housing, what?""

More imaginary fears from the conservatives.
When they can't come up with an intelligent argument against national health care they just make up problems that don't even exist and have not been even suggested.

Free housing....yeah...tell us who is pushing for that
Free college....give me the names of some Congressmen pushing for that.

Member - I wasn't arguing for healthcare for people 18 and up either. But you seem to be making a "slippery slope" argument against this particular bill, which is not for 25 year olds.

How is just 18 fine? I was in college until I was almost 22. If I hadn't been covered by my father's insurance, I would have had to rely on the ER.

So the poor kid trying to get out of the ghetto and working his way through college now loses his healthcare and has to rely on the ER??
If he gets sick, he's now bankrupt and has to drop out and will be a drain on government rather than a contributor to it.

How is that efficient? How does that help build a stronger future?


If every 18 year old could go out and get a good paying factory job with bennefits, I might agree with you Member.
But as we all know, those jobs don't much exist anymore, having moved to China.
To get a good paying job now means being in school until 21 at the minimum, until 25, 26 if you want to be a lawyer or PhD.

How about a compromise then? Free healthcare for all "children" still in college who aren't covered by their parents?

Joe, I think the House version is the one with the cigarette tax. As a smoker, I don't mind paying the tax if it is going to provide health insurance to a kid.

The problem with slippery slope arguments is that anyone can make one about anything. And since its all speculation, everyone is valid in their own minds.

"Healthcare for children will lead to free college" = "Gay marriage will lead to societal acceptance of goatfucking" = "If we cut taxes now that will lead to no taxes and no police and no firemen and lots of anarchy" = "Government money for faith based groups will lead to theocracy."

Bullshit x4. Everyone does it. I do it. I'm trying not to.

How about ending all the nonsense and do what all of our economic competitors do...have national health care....it is ridiculous to expect American companies who pay for health care for employees to compete with companies overseas who don't have the same burden. It becomes a matter of national competitiveness.

Rob, you don't really need to post. Just put your name and everyone already knows you are against anything that will help anyone.

Posted by danni


Hey douchebag... this thread is about the senate passing a child health bill, and my only post on the subject says I think all children should be covered and have access to healthcare...

Read what the post next time before commenting and looking like an ass.

I think 18 should be the child/adult cutoff.

NPR misinformed me this morning. My apologies Joe.

This bill pays for children and sometimes their parents, getting coverage if their income is less than $80,000. How many people making $80k need help from the gov?

They need help, but its in pullin' their head out if they cant afford shots for their kids making that much! Quit buying cocaine and crack and take care of your kids!

Who needs Hillary care when this thing keeps growing every two years! Buy the time she gets in power this thing will morph into Medicare for everyone below $200k! and 100% tax for everyone else!

Rob, this will most likely be yet another "danni moment," where she never returns to the thread.

Rob, I read your post but I still think your attitude concerning health care for adults is an indication of your own self-congratulatory attitude because apparently you are health, fairly intelligent and received an education which is not the case for many Americans through no fault of their own.
There are millions of people who aren't intelligent, they work hard but will never earn very much....so they don't deserve some sort of health care???
There are millions who became ill while unemployed and thus don't have insurance...so they should lose everything they worked for in their entire life????
There are millions, such as myself, who couldn't get an education when I was young because I was caring for five younger brothers and sisters and a sick mother. I later did go back and finish school but my first couple of decades of working were in low pay jobs without health insurance. It sucked and my kids suffered for it.
You glibly talk about things you've never had to deal with yourself as if you could have done so much better in other folk's shoes, til you take a walk in their shoes you ought to STFU.

"This is pretty much the only type of socialized health care I can get behind"

YEAH!

Now if only you could manage to get the definition of what "socialized" is you might start making some sense every now and then!

You do know that your current HMO is by definition "socialized" medicine?!

Didn't think so. Fool!

"This is pretty much the only type of socialized health care I can get behind"

YEAH!

Now if only you could manage to get the definition of what "socialized" is you might start making some sense every now and then

You do know that your current HMO is by definition "socialized" medicine?! Didn't think so. Fool!


DANNI, this will most likely be yet another "wobbie moment" where she and her girlfriend Joe never returns to the thread.

REDNECK
have you seen Montel Williams and the PPA motorhome that travels the nation spreading the generosity of Big Pharma to the masses???
I am always so touched.
The one lady always starts the commercial with....
"I lost my job and my healthcare....."

Folks like Wobbie think they will never deal with such a problem but I've seen disaster hit many folks who thought they were immune too but things happen and they got hurt financially and physically. Physically they eventually healed, financially they were wiped out.

Rob, I read your post but I still think your attitude concerning health care for adults is an indication of your own self-congratulatory attitude because apparently you are health, fairly intelligent and received an education which is not the case for many Americans through no fault of their own....

And may I add my own comment -- he probably has his health care all nicely covered by his employer with a cheap co-pay for everything. Let's see ol' Rob pay full price out of his own wallet and see what he thinks then.

"Gay marriage will lead to societal acceptance of goatfucking"

Posted by Pleasantville

Actually, the two are pretty similar in terms of bizzare sexual behavior. If one is deemed acceptable, the other can't be far behind.

How about ending all the nonsense and do what all of our economic competitors do...have national health care....it is ridiculous to expect American companies who pay for health care for employees to compete with companies overseas who don't have the same burden. It becomes a matter of national competitiveness.

Posted by danni

Many of our economic competitors also have LOWER COPORATE TAX RATES. And also, many other countries don't make companies pay taxes for foreign profits, Put that in your pipe in smoke it!

"How is just 18 fine? I was in college until I was almost 22. If I hadn't been covered by my father's insurance, I would have had to rely on the ER."

posted by Norm

Well in that case leave the "children" portion for people 18 and under and then require "young adults" to attend college at least halft time or whatever, be in good standing to get health care. But you can not seriously put people 18-25 in a "children's " health program because they are not children.

NPR misinformed me this morning. My apologies Joe.


Posted by taxman

What?! Did Murdoch buy NPR too :(

""Many of our economic competitors also have LOWER COPORATE TAX RATES."

And that proves what???
That our corporations have a double burden???
Healthcare for employess + taxes???
Seems that removing one would help them, would it not???

What it proves it that you only cite our competitors when it suits you but apparently you would only fix one of the burdens, not both. How convenient for you.

In other words, if you really were in interested in making American companies compettive you would be arguing for both, national health care and lower corporate tax rates. The fact that you only want to fix one problem suggest thay you are only spiling crocodile tears for corporate America.

Generally I like this bill. A few things I would change: Max age to be considered a child should be the age at which a child becomes an adult; Instead of family income being the determinant of whether or not a child qualifies, it should be per capita family income. This way large, high income families with a low per capita family income could still qualify;

I like that this is a block grant to states which will then administer the program based on the poverty level in their state e.g. it is more expensive to live in the North East than just about anywhere else in the USA.

Why is it that no child left behind is ok for education but not for health care?

What it proves it that you only cite our competitors when it suits you but apparently you would only fix one of the burdens, not both. How convenient for you.
Posted by member2586 at 2007-08-03 02:26 PM


YEAH!

Is that like how you compare the tax burden on corporations in other countries as an equal comparison to us, but then fail to mention that those countries have no roads, no infrastructure and their populations live in feces?!

Do you mean "convenient" like that?

This just might be a beginning. Civilized nations have not only free health care, but free education and all manner of social safety nets for those who need a jump start. Free housing, no, but decent accommodations for most. Yes, they pay higher taxes, and are glad to do it. They get something for their money. All we get is invasions of countries that did nothing to us so our leader can land on carrier decks and trumpet that he has personally accomplished another mission. herm

""In other words, if you really were in interested in making American companies compettive you would be arguing for both, national health care and lower corporate tax rates.""

Bull shit. If our major corporations were all going bankrupt then maybe I'd think about it but fact is they are making plenty.
No,it's the employers of Americans that I concern myself with and yes health care is a burden for them.

Why would I reduce taxes on a company outsourcing jobs?????
Ridiculous people with ridiculous arguments.

"Is that like how you compare the tax burden on corporations in other countries as an equal comparison to us, but then fail to mention that those countries have no roads, no infrastructure and their populations live in feces?!

Gee, I didn't realize Ireland and Norway did not have roads and their populations lived in feces.

"Bull shit. If our major corporations were all going bankrupt then maybe I'd think about it but fact is they are making plenty. "

They are making plenty? But are they competitive? You implied that our corporations are not competitive. Are you saying they should be making more? I don't get it. You complain about our companies not being competitive and then you complain they make plenty.

"Why would I reduce taxes on a company outsourcing jobs?????
Ridiculous people with ridiculous arguments."

What about reducing taxes if they sell abroad and then want to repatriate profits to invest here domestically to create more jobs.

Company after company if now reporting that they are making more money outside the U.S. than inside because the global economy is growing more ehtan the U.S. economy. Letting then repatriate their profits is a smart thing, believe me.

""What about reducing taxes if they sell abroad and then want to repatriate profits to invest here domestically to create more jobs.""

Letting them repatriate profits here is fine with me but I doubt they will be doing much of that because they want factories where labor is cheap.
When they have dragged down wages here far enough then they might consider investing here.

This just might be a beginning. Civilized nations have not only free health care, but free education and all manner of social safety nets for those who need a jump start. Free housing, no, but decent accommodations for most. Yes, they pay higher taxes, and are glad to do it. They get something for their money. All we get is invasions of countries that did nothing to us so our leader can land on carrier decks and trumpet that he has personally accomplished another mission. herm

Posted by herm

Well, I'll agree with you that our taxes are being wasted away on wars of agression when our infrastructure is crumblimg. And then they'll have the nerve to ask for more taxes to fix the roads. Hell no! Not until you stop wasting money on the Military Industrial Complex.

""You implied that our corporations are not competitive. Are you saying they should be making more?""

I realize I was unclear there, I meant those corporations, or companies that employ Americans.
The corporations that primarily hire foreign workers for lower wages I couldn't care less about them and health care costs are really a consideration for them. If by removing the burden of health care from employers resulted in a return of jobs to America then that would be great, wouldn't it???

""Not until you stop wasting money on the Military Industrial Complex.""

Basicly that really is the bottom line.
Guns or butter.

I'm tired of Liberals always tryign to force their Morals and Values on the rest of us.

Get over it.. we don't all have the same Value system and the minute you realize that and stop trying to turn your moral code into the law of the land the better off we all will be.

It doesn't appear as if anyone read the article before posting. The House version will be paid for by raising cigarette taxes, and by slashing medical aid to the elderly and to seniors. The Senate version will be paid for--says them--by increased taxes on cigarettes.

Quick question: why do you assume that the same number of cigarettes will be sold, if they will cost $1 more per pack? Still, if this is what the Dems mean by "revenue neutral", it's hard to complain. I have four minor children, though we're solidly middle-class--if the Dems want to create a program by which American middle-class children get free medical care by cutting benefits paid to the elderly, that's something I'm surprised the AARP would sit still for.

"we don't all have the same Value system and the minute you realize that and stop trying to turn your moral code into the law of the land the better off we all will be."

So the score is Guns one, Butter zero. Anyone else want to put wiping out Iraqi children ahead of treating American children ? herm

So the score is Guns one, Butter zero. Anyone else want to put wiping out Iraqi children ahead of treating American children ? herm

Posted by herm at 2007-08-03 07:21 PM |

Actually Guns 0 Butter 0.

I think this administration will go down in history as shameful, as well as this war.

I'm more of a zero-sum player :)

"Gay marriage will lead to societal acceptance of goatfucking"

Posted by Pleasantville

Actually, the two are pretty similar in terms of bizzare sexual behavior. If one is deemed acceptable, the other can't be far behind.

Posted by ChickenInOven at 2007-08-03 02:11 PM

Chickenfukersayswhat?

"I think this administration will go down"

But will it swallow?

Rob, I read your post but I still think your attitude concerning health care for adults

This is a thread about healthcare for children... of which I fully support.

So when you said:


Rob, you don't really need to post. Just put your name and everyone already knows you are against anything that will help anyone.

Posted by danni


So either you don't think kids are people, or you're talking out your ass.

I have something to say and it will take me two posts to do it.


I hope Bush does veto this bill.

From a commentary citing an editorial from the July 30, 2007 Washington Times:

Washington Times "Unsatisfied with thwarting a Republican effort to authorize $3 billion for a border fence, congressional Democrats are trying to enhance the incentive for illegal aliens to enter the United States by removing the citizenship requirement from the popular State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)."

We've talked about their attempts to update and revise this program. It comes up for renewal. This is the program that uses existing tobacco taxes to pay for health care for kids. Health insurance for kids, nine million of them or something, and they want to expand the number of people who are eligible. ...[T]his is also where they categorize a child as anybody 25 years of age or under. So a 24-year-old father with a 22-year-old mother and maybe two babies or one, can qualify for health care.

They do it [expand the program to include illegal aliens] in a stealth fashion, and they put it under the guise, ..."It's for the little children. We cannot deny the children health care. There's so many of them without insurance." ...

Now, a little history here. "The Republican Congress in 1996 passed legislation blocking people who are in the country illegally from claiming benefits from the federal government, and when SCHIP was created in 1997, states were required to verify citizenship.

(continued explanation from above post)

Why giving SCHIP to illegal aliens and taking money away from Medicare to pay for it affects me and why I am totally against it.

Medicare payments to doctors and the hospitals -- for the last few years [under Bush] -- have been being cut more and more -- and the doctors and hospitals have been fighting to have these cuts in their payments stopped and the payments reinstituted back to their original levels.

To now have the HUGE expansion of SCHIP to now include ALL illegal aliens up to age 25 will pull even more money away from Medicare in order to pay for SCHIFA and just about guarantee that the doctors' and hospitals Medicare cuts in payments will continue and may get worse. Cuts in payments to the doctors and hospitals are expected to be as high as 40%.

My elderly mother's long time physician no longer accepts any NEW Medicare patients precisely because of these cuts to the Medicare payments made to the doctors and hosptials (which payments were never much to begin with.)

Her physician also said that it is coming down to the hard reality that doctors are deciding that if these Medicare cuts go through -- scheduled to be up to 40% cuts in Medicare payments -- then he and most other physicians in general practice (regular private doctors, not HMO doctors) will be forced out of practicing medicine and may be forced to retire. He said about the only other alternative -- if the Medicare cuts continue to rise and become permanent -- will be to charge their own current Medicare patients additional money to come out of their patients' own pockets (often from elderly patients on fixed incomes) -- something the physicians do not want to do.

CAN ANYONE ON HERE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY -- elderly U.S citizens -- many on fixed incomes -- will have to incur more costs out of pocket (or face losing their physician) and why U.S. doctors and hospitals are being drastically cut back on Medicare payments made to them but it's okay to give those health care monies instead to expand SCHIP all in order to give provide health care to ALL illegal aliens under age 25?

She has paid taxes in this country her whole life and has always been a LAW ABIDING American citizen. Her family has fought for this country and her brother gave his life in WW II. When she needs her doctors the most and help from Medicare she and millions of other seniors in the "greatest generation" are to be shoved aside, put at risk of losing her long time physician, and all in order to pay for the millions of children of illegal aliens all the way up to age 25?

Did you know that Mexico (the source of the majority of illegal aliens in this country) is the RICHEST COUNTRY IN SOUTH AMERICA? They are not "poor Mexico" who can't afford health care for their poor. Mexico has huge riches in oil and natural resources. It's just that Mexico's elite and politicians want to keep the riches for themselves .

Mexico has more millionaires than Switzerland. Yet Mexico's elite doesn't want to pay for their poor (although they sure want the billions their poor who are here illegally send back to Mexico).

I think I will have to hold my nose and vote Republican in 2008 for President (please, God, don't let it be another GWB-type) because the Democrats seem hell bent on bringing in the entire third world in here for freebies at the heavy expense of law abiding Americans -- including some of our most vulnerable -- our senior citizens. Is this how we pay back our own senior citizens? Cut back on Medicare payments until their doctors until the doctors can no longer afford to care for them but find plenty of money to pay for illegal alien health care?

"Gee, I didn't realize Ireland and Norway did not have roads and their populations lived in feces."
Posted by member2586 at 2007-08-03


YEAH!

You are right about Norway ---- Ireland not so much!

Higher cigarette taxes. Sooner or later they'll have to find a new group of people to shit on every time they need a few billion.

Posted by JOE at 2007-08-03 12:04 PM |


We could tax beer at a higher level. Of course then we'd have to increase food assistance to offset the increased taxes on beer. Is it doable?

Actually I'd like to see womens shoes taxed twice what they are today. That should more than cover the cost.

Rob, you don't really need to post. Just put your name and everyone already knows you are against anything that will help anyone.

Posted by danni

Why should I have to pay for maintanence on your childern? Pay your own f*****g medical bills and I'll pay mine. They have set the age at 25. That's some child.

Legalize MArijuana.

Tax it.

Save money on the drug war and the justice system and the penal system.

Gain money from taxes.

Provide healthcare for kids :)

Actually I'd like to see womens shoes taxed twice what they are today. That should more than cover the cost.

Posted by Incubus_Con

Outstanding, simply outstanding. That would cover the cost of the 1.6 trillion needed to fix our infrastructure and there would be still lott of money left over.

Member-
I think Incubus is just looking out for his investments. Once he's "cured", he's going to have to do something with all those (formerly) sexy shoes.

This is a Very bad Idea taxing Women's shoes twice. Think of how pissed off a Woman would be paying MORE for shoes. Think about when that pissed off Woman gets Home. She will scream at Her Husband about WHY THE FUCK DO I HAVE TO PAY SO MUCH FOR SHOES. Then She will be so pissed off the Husband will not be getting ANY nookie for that night. You REALLY need to think this one through first.

Larry

Incubator for Repubtardation - Please don't say you are one of the last Bush lickers left?

You MUST have your Nurse plug-in your "thinking tubes" soon that Lush unplugged to suck on Years ago.

Anyone who thinks those Fakes are "Christ"ian is more delusional than the knocked-out by a pretzel, bourbon soused "Cowboy" writhing in a daze on the Floor!

WTF is Confusing?? CHRIST would want Medicine and Help for Kids and the Poor and NOT 100s of thousands of murdered Women and Kids in IRAQ!!

AMAZING to watch RepubTards BITCH in Congress about $9 Billion to help AMERICANS when they SPILLED MORE than that in IRAQ!!

Over $9 Billion "missing" in IRAQ within the first 3 months, and also 190,00 GUNS, with ZERO INVESTIGATION or any slight concern from "Conservative Christians"

Simply stunning that anyone could even remotely approach defending any RepubTard these Days

- You Bushies an OJ sucker and defender after THAT mountain of evidence too, suppose!

Maybe they will both take you Golfin' at the Country Club sometime to look for the "Killers" and "Terrorists" there....

Hey Larry, come on, it's for the children !!!

Besides, I don't care, I am not married and don't intend to be.

Besides, I don't care, I am not married and don't intend to be.

Posted by member2586 at 2007-08-03 11:24 PM | Reply

I am looking out for those whom are Married cause if I ain't getting nookie at least SOMEONE should be getting it in My place.

Larry

""They have set the age at 25.""

I agree with you there but since I favor national health care for everyone it doesn't bother me. To me it is just a step in the right direction.

i favor a national vote and all those who vote for this idiotic shit get they taxes raised those who vot no dont..

I favor the Congress passing laws and the rest of us obeying them and if we don't like them then we elect a different Congress. Until we do though we're stuck with the one we got which happens to have a Democratic majority. Don't worry though Cheka, the pres is going to veto it and I doubt that the Republicans will override him even if it will kill them in 08. We'll see, at some point they will stop going along but it will have to be closer to the election.

""They have set the age at 25.""

I agree with you there but since I favor national health care for everyone it doesn't bother me. To me it is just a step in the right direction.

Posted by danni at 2007-08-04 11:04 AM | Reply |

But why should my elderly mother have to face losing her long time physician (or have to make up out of pocket the cuts made to Medicare payments) so that $200 MILLION can be diverted from Medicare payments and put into insuring ILLEGAL ALIENS UP TO AGE 25? She hasn't been paying for Medicare and out of her pocket for a costly Medicare Supplemental insurance policy to end up giving up her personal private doctor of many years only to sit in some HMO waiting room crowded with illegal aliens and their anchor babies all getting free care on our dime.

Which is it -- do you want to insure MILLIONS and MILLIONS of illegal aliens here at a huge cost to taxpayers -- many of them senior citizens who face the very real possibility of having to make up the cost difference out of pocket as Medicare monies are from payments to doctors to instead funding programs to give illegal aliens free health care?

You can't have it both ways.

screw that.

favor the Congress passing laws and the rest of us obeying them and if we don't like them then we elect a different Congress....

Does it matter who we elect? The Democrats yesterday illegally SWITCHED THE VOTE RESULTS so that illegal aliens can all receive welfare, etc. benefits! It had officially been voted NO and the Democrats gaveled the vote to a close and CHANGED THE RESULTS!!

I'm thru with the Democrat party. The Dems are hell bent on flooding this nation with billions of illegal aliens until we end up looking and being just like the same third world nations these illegal aliens came from. The Dems apparently don't have an ounce of loyality to this nation's sovereignty or to the welfare of it's LEGAL citizens in their body.

This is a train wreck