Democrats appear to be worried that if they block such legislation, the White House will depict them as being weak on terrorism.

LOL

I love it, the Democrats will sell their soul because they are afraid of what a White House press release might say.

Unless of course, they know that all their attacks on Bush over FISA have been unfounded -- and all the actions the President took to safeguard this country, were indeed to safeguard this country and not spy on innocent americans.

Either way you cut it, this NY Times (surprise!) story reveals an unprincipled Democratic party.

all their attacks on Bush over FISA have been unfounded

Sorry, it's still illegal what has been done. You can claim "war powers" all you like, but unless the law is actually changed, it has been violated, and Bush and Co. have admitted as much.

BTW- thanks for the "moderate" view once more, Bowa.

Sorry, it's still illegal what has been done. You can claim "war powers" all you like, but unless the law is actually changed, it has been violated, and Bush and Co. have admitted as much.

LOL

Nobody ever said that Bush didn't violate the "letter" of the law. What I and others have always maintained was that Bush, as a wartime President, had every right to ignore the directives of a 25 year old FISA act if he believed it was harming his ability to defend and protect the nation in the ongoing war.

And not only have the Democrats never prosecuted Bush for this so-called "violation" but now they are on the verge of capitulating to him and changing FISA to suit the necessities of war in the 21st century.

Obvioulsy, for all their public complaints, the democrats know damn well that FISA was obsolete and the president acted first and did what was in the best interest of the country rather then wait for the legislation to try and catch up to the realities of war and risk putting hundred, maybe millions of american lives in danger.

Too funny.

I can't wait until Hillary becomes president... her insatiable appetite for power and control over america will be delighted with these new evesdropping "rules"

isnt there someone who can drag up some post from boyd or danni or anyone who said something right after the last election about how the democrat congress was going to 'clean this mess up' and see to it that bush was impeached right after all spying and shit like that was done away with.
surely one of us can find something like that....
you know not that I would EVER want to throw anything back at any of them.......NOOOOOOOOOOOOO not me.........hee hee........


but here is something else.......why shouldnt we on the right appauld them.....isnt this what we have been talking about? NAW NEVERMIND......giving the business the the retort left is much to fun to not do that................hee hee heeeeeeeeeeee

uh audrey.....or should I say dorothy....please click your heels and head on back to kansas.......cause 'you dreamin'

Good for the dems----keep the necessary oversight(FISA Court) to allow a necessary program to continue.

I can't believe anyone on the left or right could argue against this.

Note to Rcade;

From "Dems Caving to Bush on FISA" to "Dems, Bush Work on Easier Eavesdropping"

Come on. You are usually pretty fair but that's sort of ridiculous given the tone and context of the story.

The dems and president aren't working together, all touchy-feely, on "easier eavesdropping" , the Dems are "scrambling" to give Bush more "power" on 'electronic wiretapping" because "if they block such legislation", they fear, " the White House will depict them as being weak on terrorism."

Given how contentious this issue is, that's CAVING!

"We hope our Republican counterparts will work together with us to fix the problem, rather than try again to gain partisan political advantage at the expense of our national security," Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the majority leader, said in a statement Monday night.

So much for that hope, Harry.

The Bowa's of the world cannot help themselves.

Bowa--you can't be that disingenous. Back when this all first went down, the issue was that (a) FISA was violated and (b) bush COULD have modified FISA to conform with modern needs and (c) there needed to be SOME form of oversight (i.e. FISA court).


This is doing nothing more than implementing these policies. Dems never said they didn't think the program was important (it was teh REPUBLICANS who said the dems didn't want to protect the US). The Dems were concerned with overreaching by this and future administrations and the lack of oversight by a different branch of the government.

This is NOT caving. Nice spin though...

sure corky and this from the man in the senate who informed the enemy that we have lost and they have won giving them more and more hope that all they had to do was keep waiting us out.....

sure lets quote that motherfucker some more........

and of course the real irony is that he says this for what reason............politics of course.....so is this coming from both sides of his mouth or from his mouth and ass?

and when did it become okay to spy on all of us and to be in our bedroom and to monitor all of our calls that the left said was going on?
or could they have been...............wrong...... ..

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH surely not.

The Bowa's of the world cannot help themselves.


Posted by Corky at 2007-08-02 09


and one more thing......its the bowas of the world who will eventually save your fat ass.

It is the Bowas of the world that will continue to keep HIS fat ass and our fat asses in trouble. If I've noticed one thing about the right wing meatheads is that they have this overwhelming NEED to hate and fear something. For a long while it was Communism. Communism self-destructed (no, RR did not single-handedly destroy communism) and they were lost for awhile. Now they have discovered MUSLIMS and the Muslim menace. The fact that the vast majority of these scarey MUSLIMS are moderate folk will mean that, if sanity prevails, in a few years they won't have MUSLIMS fear and hate. Then they will have to come up with something new. Of course they will always hate and fear blacks, liberals, scientists, intellectuals and so forth but those don't have the political impact of COMMUNISTS and MUSLIMS.

BL2,

Save us from what? The mafia that BushCo wants to reinstate in Cuba and already has Wall Street in its pocket (just like it did FBI Director Hoover)? Or Al Qaida, that grows stronger and stronger every day thanks to BushCo shortsighted, greed driven policies that have become a selffulfilling prophecy of Government incompetence rooted in corrupt practices which mimick third world traditions? Or Kim Jung Yong that Shrub has decided he better not invade, or Akmanajan, that he can't wait to lose to? The moron that cannot stablize Afghanistan or Iraq has no chance of getting anywhere with the far more powerful Iran. We are in dire need of better leadership.

its the bowas of the world who will eventually save your fat ass.

Posted by bushlovertwo


Tough as it may be for you, try and keep your mind off my ass, 'K?

BLT

And since nuance is a four-letter word to you, perhaps you might better understand Harry's view from some months ago as it was just yesterday stated by Bush's choice to head the Joint CoS....

"Adm. Michael G. Mullen, President Bush's nominee to head the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told a Senate panel yesterday......

"There is no purely military solution in Iraq," said Adm. Michael Mullen, tapped to lead Joint Chiefs of Staff."

"Unless the Iraqi government takes advantage of the "breathing space" that U.S. forces are providing, Mullen said, "no amount of troops in no amount of time will make much of a difference."

"... the war in Iraq is taking a heavy toll on the U.S. military, warning that American forces are "not unbreakable" and stressing the need to "plan for an eventual drawdown" of troops."

www.washingtonpost.com

They musta run plumb outta Loyalty Oathers.

Posted by Corky at 2007-08-01 12:28 PM"

NO BLT It is Lokisfur's of the world that would sell Our fundamental rights down the shitter for some power. No BLT the Lokisfur's of the world are what is wrong with the world. For You see those whom give up freedoms for supposed safety deserve neither and will lose both. You dig??

Larry

I don't get IT! You libs are saying it's not legal to spy on people from other countries. King Clinton decided we couldn't use people to spy on other countries and now you say we can't use electronics either. Nore can we question the prisoners we capture on the battle field. What is left, just make the shit up? That would be good information! WTF over.

h audrey.....or should I say dorothy....please click your heels and head on back to kansas.......cause 'you dreamin'

Posted by bushlovertwo

as he ignores that Hillary Clinton is beating Guiliani in most major polls...

Whatever happened to demanding the Laws be followed Sniper. Whatever happened to treating people Humanely. I guess in Sniper/Lokisfur's world their party can do no wrong.

Larry

Ad hoc War powers are corrosive to the Constitution and the wisdom granted by our forefathers.

This is a blatant power grab motivated by the politics of fear that has been the cornerstone of abuses for the Bush Administration.

This country is no longer a beacon of freedom and justice. Sad. Sad that there are supporters of this injustice and planned deconstruction of the United States as a soverign and proud nation.

Sad we've watched it all happen in such a short time. Shame on the sheep who have been supporters of George Bush.

"Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin.

I can not believe there are still fuckers who continue to support Dubya and His Illegal ways. What is even more disheartening is people like RIR don't give a shit about the laws in this Country. I expect it out of Lokisfur AKA Bowa. Come on Bushites Dubya broke the fucking law again and You don't give a shit. No wonder people have so much contempt for You.

Larry

"I can not believe there are still fuckers who continue to support Dubya and His Illegal ways."


I know. The Dems in Congress are such assholes.

But, but, but.... congress was given a mandate in 06.... lmao

Once again the DEMOCRATIC PARTY shows why they are the DO NOTHING party.

Just a party in lock step with Bush, they just don't want the voters to know.

its the bowas of the world who will eventually save your fat ass.

Posted by bushlovertwo at 2007-08-02 09:42 AM


Nope--its the Bowas of the world who will sit at home and watch others bleed on TV while he talks all bad ass. This country was founded by liberals and defended by liberals in every war. Take a look at the government in place now. Most of the leaders are candy assed punk conservatives who did everything they could to stay safe at home---the ones who went to war and got wounded are liberals.

The problem has been the country has been led by BOWA like morons and cowards for far too long.

These comments are hilarious, essentially saying look you Democrats really are just as big of fuck ups as us Republicans.

Sorta.. not quite as horrible as you.

thats ok though, if it makes ya feel better about being fuckups in the first place..

Wow, all the illegal wiretap talk from Ried/Pelosi/Billary and the gracious left, and then they get in power and look what they do. Hypocritical? just a tad, just a tad.....

nothing new here.....

I thought they were gonna fight 'big oil' as well, since we are 'paying Haliburton prices'.

Hilarious....

Regardless of what is said or isn't said, the safeguards of the American people can be still be intact without having to initiate easier eavesdropping laws. We have secured America for over 200 years. Why now do we need more protection? I think we should hand Bush and his buddies over the Sunnis and Shiites and let him studder his way out of that. The excuse "to protect America" is crap. Bush has used that one too many times and it doesn't work anymore. We should be more afraid of what our leaders are doing versus what other countries think of doing. If we didn't invade every country that had a differing opinion, then we would have so many enemies. I challenge one person in here to give me the main reason we invaded Iraq and stopped looking for Osama? You won't find one because there isn't one. I think we need to remember Pearl Harbor. The government knew Japan was coming but knew the American people would not go to war again. So they let it happen and the people had misdirected hatred and it was a rally of "patriotism" for America to go to war. I see a common thread.

MY party, right or wrong!!! When I'm plotting the overthrow of the Republican dictatorship, I shall make sure not to use the phone or e-mail, but to sit on a park bench after I make sure it hasn't been bugged. Go Hill, go Barack. herm

Go Hill, go Barack. herm

Posted by herm at 2007-08-02 05:28 PM |


Funny stuff. When did the asylum get grants for patient computers?

"When did the asylum get grants for patient computers?
Posted by Incubus_Con"

There's a surprise waiting for you in your room, as soon as you return from your colonic irrigation session.

Bowa- Nobody ever said that Bush didn't violate the "letter" of the law. What I and others have always maintained was that Bush, as a wartime President, had every right to ignore the directives of a 25 year old FISA act if he believed it was harming his ability to defend and protect the nation in the ongoing war.


And then in another thread:

I believe that the "separation of powers" was specifically conceived by the founders to make the branches of government antagonistic with each other and prevent one branch from usurping power from any other.

Partisan liar.

IN, how does those two posts make me out to be a liar.

They are completely consistent.

In the first, essentially, I made the point that the powers of a President expand during wartime and the commander in chief is given greater latitude in the way he interprets and prioritizes his constitutional duties.

In the 2nd, I describe that the separation of powers" was specifically conceived by the founders to make the branches of government antagonistic with each other and prevent one branch from usurping power from any other.

And certianly we are seeing that antagonism play out now -- as the President lays claim to his wartime powers, and the Congress threatens to challenge him.

And certianly we are seeing that antagonism play out now -- as the President lays claim to his wartime powers, and the Congress threatens to challenge him.

Posted by Bowa at 2007-08-02 08:06 PM | Reply


Bwhahahahahah You are a complete Fraud Lokisfur. First of all We do not have a declaration of War. Secondly the United States Constitution MUST be followed as long as it is in affect. Dubya is duty bound by the Oath of Office to support and defend the US Constitution. When He goes against the US Constitution He is not supporting and defending it but pissing all over the document. You know this I Know this so why do You deflect and keep spouting the same BULLSHIT Lokisfur Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Larry

Larry is exactly right.

No official declaration of war. No war time president, no war time powers.

You lose.

Of course they will always hate and fear blacks, liberals, scientists, intellectuals and so forth but those don't have the political impact of COMMUNISTS and MUSLIMS.

Posted by Oldfart at 2007-08-02 10:07 AM | Reply

No, Fart, Conservatives do not hate anybody. Though we do try to constrain the sort of narrow-minded bigotry you spew.

I believe that the "separation of powers" was specifically conceived by the founders to make the branches of government antagonistic with each other and prevent one branch from usurping power from any other.

Partisan liar.

Posted by I_N_Cognito at 2007-08-02 07:54 PM | Reply

What an idiot! INC, do you know anything about American history, besides what Chris Matthews tells you?

Our government was designed to be inefficient, messy and full of conflict. You want efficieny from bureaucrats, you get Nazi Germany, you clown.

Go find something written by Alexander Hamilton. Do some homework.

Our government was designed to perform for the will of the people....period.

Some how that has been removed and the government thinks the people perform for them.

The people are supposed to rule, not the government.

Chris Matthews sucks.

I haven't liked him since he said bush might be on mount rushmoore. Or how about when he gushed about Fred Thompsons smell?

Vern- every time bush (ab)uses executive privilege I will laugh at what you wrote, btw.

PS- I can see why vernon got confused...

I didnt call Bowa a liar for speaking about checks and balance.

I called him a liar because it didn't gel with the 800 examples he's produced of W the "war time president" being able to shit on said checks and balances.

I called Bowa a liar because he tries to have it both ways, depending on what suits his bias for the moment, which his second quote in the same post is the example of.

Get it now vernon? You can apologize anytime.

But I won't be holding my breath for that apology, old man.

Since terrorism is declared at least officially as a Crime it is a Law Enforcement matter. True many terrorist organizations are co sponsored by Nation States that does not mean an Army has Attacked a Country therefore NO State of War can be declared. While it is true Dubya is using the Military for the eradication of this terrorism. The responsibility rests with that Country's Law Enforcement body. Since it is not considered a Declaration of War from any one Country Dubya can not a State of War exsists So no TRUE Declaration of War Time President can be made. Since We attacked another Country(Iraq) We have violated the Geneva Conventions as well as the UN Charter Article 2 Clause 7. So Lokisfur You can scream shout LIE all day long You can not declare TRULY Dubya is a War Time President Nor can You declare He has "Wartime" powers. Nice try once again.

Larry

Let me spell it out for anyone that missed it:

Bowa's 1st post on one thread:

Nobody ever said that Bush didn't violate the "letter" of the law. What I and others have always maintained was that Bush, as a wartime President, had every right to ignore the directives of a 25 year old FISA act if he believed it was harming his ability to defend and protect the nation in the ongoing war.


Bowa's 2nd post in another thread:

I believe that the "separation of powers" was specifically conceived by the founders to make the branches of government antagonistic with each other and prevent one branch from usurping power from any other.


This is why I called him a liar. One does not fit with the other, however I am not denying that the 2nd post is factually accurate. It's Bowa's ball licking of W that makes him a partisan hack, and proves vernons lack of reading comprehension.

Let me correct one Small thing.

Dubya can not declare a State of War exsists.

That used to be congress' job.

If Bush is a war time president, then kiss my ring, cuz I'm the pope.

"That used to be congress' job."

Don't look now, but...it still is.


But hey, look over here...A shiny object!

Must be that dot Mao is always referring to.

Shiny Object must be RIR's bald head.

Larry

You're not going to make any friends that way larry.

Alexandrites seniority is 8. IN Cog is 915. RCADE is 1.

I guess it's an age thing.

Nah the Seniority is how long a poster has been here. Gal Tuesday is a Seniority number 2 Just an FYI

Larry

Yeah, an age thing.

Ho ho ho.

This is why I called him a liar. One does not fit with the other ..........

Posted by I_N_Cognito at 2007-08-03 12:54 AM | Reply

Anyone who truly understands history and politics will know that 'checks and balances' is not a precise process. Presidents and Congress have always fought with each other over ultimate power.

Nixon nearly made himself a king, and congress destroyed him. This is what is supposed to happen.

Now INC, the feeble minded might like to have a cookbook government, where every job is outlined in excruciating and painful detail. But the Founders, in a wisdom you cannot grasp, realized that government is not McDonald's: there cannot be exact recipes.

Instead, there is a non-stop struggle over power and decisions. It is part of the plan.

Now go have a Big Mac. My treat. It's shit for food but you always know that going in.

At some point Nixon realized that the constant stonewalling of investigations just dragged them out, and hurt the country.

Bush will never realize this. And he has an army of about 20% of the voter population that will drink the Jonestown punch for the next 18 months.

You can still find the occasional nimrod that thinks Nixon was railroaded as well.

Hey ALex LTNS hows it hanging??

Larry

There's a difference between checks and balances, and just calling executive privilege at every turn.

Can anyone explain to me why Bush needed to evoke executive privilege in the Pat Tillman case? Or is this just his force of habit when life gets uncomfortable?

Alexandrite....

Welcome back, #8!

#9 got the electrified chair for failing S.P.E.C.T.R.E.(Special Executor for Counter-Intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion.)

ah....reading through answers to my charge from yesterday was pretty funny stuff......
and late last night someone evoked the memory of nixon........but they forget all about other historical facts in this issue's environment...


there were illegal wiretaps placed on the phone on a person who became a hero and icon of an entire race and eventually the entire country.........
attorney general robert kennedy had wiretaps placed on martin luther king.........so did I miss those hearings and outcry or have I just forgotten them over the years........he must have deemed it worth the price of losing that 'freedom'...........
but no...the left cant remember anything like that and robert kennedy probably would have been elected if not for the tragedy. but as we all know...he was a democrat and a liberal darling who was a son of the bootlegger dynasty known as the kennedys......so he couldnt have been 'scolded' anyway.......

Anyone who can't see that the Democrats have for the most part supported Bush every step of the way for his entire presidency is blind.

Not that surprising.. The 2 mafia families working together on a project.. 2 sides of the same coin..