Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Thursday, July 26, 2007

Documents indicate eight congressional leaders were briefed about the Bush administration's terrorist surveillance program on the eve of its expiration in 2004, contradicting sworn Senate testimony this week by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. "It seemed clear to just about everyone on the committee that the attorney general was deceiving us when he said the dissent was about other intelligence activities," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y.

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A republican lied? That's like saying fish swim.

Species8472 It's getting common place with regards to Republicans Lying. I swear we should all start a lying fund. Every time a Politician lies they have to shell out say 10 grand and put it towards a worthy cause say Housing for the Homeless. Bet that would go over big in Washington....................
. NOT.

Larry

LARRY:

A lying member of the Bush administration isn't news . . .

It's called a foregone conclusion these days.

Yeppers TwinPac. Sad to say but that's Dubya's method of Operation. ALways has been ALways will be. I am sure He never watched Mr Rogers or Sesame Street growing up. That is for DAMNED sure.

Larry

"contradicting SWORN Senate testimony"
Isn't that what's called "perjury."
Just a word.
Ask Scooter.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA
Sincerely,
Big Dick Cheney

YEAH! But at least he didn't lie about sex like Bubba!

Sincerely

The Right.

"A Gonzales spokesman maintained Wednesday that the attorney general stands by his testimony."

From what I hear, witnesses are given the chance to review and correct their testimony. This guy won't even do that? Is he that dumb? He could just say that he was mistaken or something (or that he can't keep track of so many lies at once and slipped up).

From what I hear, witnesses are given the chance to review and correct their testimony. This guy won't even do that? Is he that dumb?

Why would he bother changing his testimony with Captain Commutation sitting in the Oval Office?

The Scooter Libby case demonstrated that perjury is not a crime in the US any longer according to the Republican Party.

We anxiously await righies posts here but we are patient because we know you guys must wait for your talking points.
My prediction is that Gonzalez is going to pull some kind of national security excuse.

Which one of Bush's chorus of polyps will lob the first Clinton/Sandy Berger deflection grenade, do you suppose?

Let me get it started.
Hillary murdered 1,000,000 people when Bill was Governor of ARkansas....all women Bill had sex with.

She missed a few.

Let me get it started.
Hillary murdered 1,000,000 people when Bill was Governor of ARkansas....all women Bill had sex with.

Posted by danni

depends on what ur definition of is is

Technical question: is he allowed to amend and that's it? Or will he have to explain those changes to the committee, under oath?

Cheka,

Or perjury. You ran away the other day when several folks asked you to prove your claim 'Clinton pleaded guilty to perjury', so I'm glad you're back. Could you either prove that statement, or retract it?

ok once again for the posters here

the us attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president can be fired at any time for any reason


what a bunch of crap about nothing

All Libby had to do was change his testimony, like Rove did, and the case would have been dropped by Fitzgerald. But Libby was protecting his co-conspirators and proceeded to trial with an "understanding" that he would be taken care of in the end. Just like the Mafia, Loyalty before Truth, or premature death. Take your choice. For the rich and powerful, special rules apply, the Constitution that is. But for the average schmuck, only the patriot act applies.

""what a bunch of crap about nothing""

Thank you Cheka.
However, lying to Congress is a crime no matter why he chose to lie.
My bet is there are crimes that they are covering up, the firing of the attorneys is the tip of the ice berg.

Otherwise, please explain why Gonzalez obviously lied.

"the us attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president can be fired at any time for any reason"

So then it follows that the Attorney General can perjure himself during Congressional hearings without fear of repercussions?

Who you gonna believe, your lying eyes or one of God's New Apostles?

The Right

Wouldn't it be fun if, for just this once, regardless of political persuasion, we could all just agree that this guy is an incompetent lackey who has no business whatsoever leading an organization as important as DOJ?

I'll vote that way, but do Independents count?

I mean, we're the only party with our own National Holiday....

FF for Danforth!

the us attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president can be fired at any time for any reason

I don't know how many times I've read or heard this, but it is patently untrue.

As with ANY job (even in an "at will state" or "at the pleasure" or whoever), a person CANNOT be fired legally for, say, refusing to commit a crime on the orders of their superior. Or for being, say, Jewish or Black.

Serving "at the pleasure of the President" is NOT to say that they can be fired for any reason at all.

And if they were fired because they refused to persue cases which lacked any merit (as is the allegation) or for actually persuing cases where there was merit, but the case was against Republicans (the other allegation), then they were fired for NOT COMMITTING A CRIME they were ordered to by a superior.

Hence, the firings were ILLEGAL, regardless of the "pleasure of the PResident" crap that continually get spewed.

So then it follows that the Attorney General can perjure himself during Congressional hearings without fear of repercussions?

For as long as Bush is President. Yep, pretty much.
Not a single word from any White House official can be taken as the truth.

And I wonder how the Religious Right feels knowing that Bush's Atourney General put his hand on a Bible, swore to God to tell the truth, and then lied because Bush told him to?

We swear to God to hold us to a higher acountability than our fellow men do. Gonzales chose Bush over God. Interesting...

Let's make this fun. Everytime a politician lies, we have to take a drink.

No one would make it to lunch.

Pee-Cheka-Choo,

This is about Gonzo's testimony as to the details of his and Card's visit to get a sedated and incompetent Ashcroft to sign off on the presiden't TSP and that Commey testified that exactly what Gonzo-Card did, while Gonzo said it wasn't. There is also a four-page memo describing TSP briefings that Gonzo said never occured.

My favorite moment was when he was asked what he went to see Ashcroft for and then was asked what was in his hand.....so obviously lying than everyone could plainly see...

"Um, oh shit..."

The Right

"Everytime a politician lies, we have to take a drink."

Posted by visitor_


Oh my liver.

I think Gonzo doesn't serve at the pleasure of the President, her just serves the President. Now that Jeffie is gone, Dubya has needs just like any other repressed homosexual.

Just in... Committee members write to Solicitor General requesting Special Prosecutor to investigate Gonzales...

"It has become apparent that the attorney general has provided at a minimum half-truths and misleading statements," four members of the Senate Judiciary Committee wrote in a letter to Solicitor General Paul Clement.

They dispatched the letter shortly before Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., announced the subpoena of Rove, the president's top political strategist.

"We have now reached a point where the accumulated evidence shows that political considerations factored into the unprecedented firing of at least nine United States Attorneys last year," said Leahy, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

I am Dead Serious Here People. Everyone we should Flood the American Bar Association, with emails calling for the disbarment of this man.
askaba@abanet.org

Please if you care about this country Demand this. Call up your states Rep demanding him to face perjury charges

Dana Millbank said the other night that there are so many scandals in the DOJ under Gonzales that Democrats are having a hard time focusing on just one target. Under Bush's lawyer, things are so bad that fucked up is SOP. It seems like the MSM and Faux Noise can't get their little brains around such an incredibly large and important story! Maybe if sex was involved we'd see more coverage!

To think there was talk of Gonzales going to the Supreme Court, what a joke! But then maybe he could have been impeached from the court for getting his law degree out of Cracker Jack box and the next Democratic President could have swung the court back to a moderate stance from this far right anti-American, anti-constitution, pro-corporate, legislating from the bench group of wack jobs we see there now!

Technical question: is he allowed to amend and that's it? Or will he have to explain those changes to the committee, under oath?

Posted by Danforth at 2007-07-26 11:19 AM


He is allowed to correct his transcript, but like in a deposition, any substantive change (yes to a no) can bring additional questioning by the Committee. Not a smart thing to do in most cases, so Gonzo sticking by his testimony is probably the best of a whole lot of shitty options.

As for the referral, the Dems are finally doing something right: if that SG appoints an independant counsel to investigate and he/she recommends a grand jury is convened, then any subpoena issued by the now special prosecutor falls under Nixon and EP can not be used as a shield.

Unfortunately, the Gang That Can't Shoot Straight that we elected in '06 will probably figure out a way to fuck this up as well.

Sigh.

LCL,

How can we lure most of them into a circle?

"And I wonder how the Religious Right feels knowing that Bush's Atourney General put his hand on a Bible, swore to God to tell the truth, and then lied because Bush told him to?"

probably used the same rationale as when the 9-11 highjackers were out boozing. When you're on a mission from God, you get special dispensation.


LCL,

How can we lure most of them into a circle?

Posted by Danforth at 2007-07-26 01:27 PM


Tell them that a rich campaign donor is in the middle of it.

I agree with Lefty that getting a Special Prosecutor to issue subpoenas is the surest way to circumvent Executive Privilege, but that could be a long road, which is why the legal staff for the Judiciary Committee is in a quandry...after all, it took Starr almost two years to get to the point where he could issue criminal subpoenas in the Paula Jones and Monica Lewinsky investigations.

"When you're on a mission from God, you get special dispensation."

Posted by northguy3

Now I have to go get a Blues Brothers DVD.

""it took Starr almost two years to get to the point where he could issue criminal subpoenas in the Paula Jones and Monica Lewinsky investigations.""

But that was a fishing expedition which just got lucky with Lewinsky. This time the prosecutor knows what crimes he is investigating. It will still take time but not two years, I hope, but if the investigation goes after the administration is out of office, criminal charges can still be brought.
The good thing is that if it does Bush can't pardon Gonzalez and, sorry but, he deserves punishment. Remember this is the guy who loves torture so much.


Unkle Karl Supenaed....

www.drudge.com

Righto - getting beyond the "lefty/righty" thing for a minute, and whether or not the USA's coulda/shoulda been dismissed, and whether or not you like the reason he was called before Congress, do you believe:

1. That Gonzales has been honest and forthcoming in his sworn testimony before Congress.

2. Has been an effective, competent leader of the DOJ.

Alberto Gonzalez lied? Oh my God. I really just never saw this one coming. Wow.

whack, whack, whack .....

when will those courageous Democrats who control Congress initiate impeachment?

Vernon, you still don't get it? We will just keep shoving one Republican scandal after another into the public's face until next election day. We will make it so that only the most hardcore partisan will even consider voting GOP. Personally, I am expecting a significant number of Republicans to either not vote at all, or vote for some Independent. Either way, you guys are being neutralized. And we aint gonna stop.

All in good time Vermin, you have to eat your veggies before you can have desert

The fact is, "[US Attorneys can be fired] any time for any reason

A partisan ignorantly replies, "I don't know how many times I've read or heard this, but it is patently untrue."

28 U.S.C ; 54 (c)

(a) The President shall appoint, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, a United States attorney for each judicial district.
(b) Each United States attorney shall be appointed for a term of four years. On the expiration of his term, a United States attorney shall continue to perform the duties of his office until his successor is appointed and qualifies.
(c) Each United States attorney is subject to removal by the President.


There is no restriction in the law on removal of these attorneys. Indeed, it doesn't matter what accusation is made by those fired, their lawyers, their congressmen, or anyone else. They are out because no claim against the firing is presented in the law -- no distraint is applied in this.

Also, these attorneys, being political appointments, are not subject to redress under civil service rules, because they aren't employess, per se.

This is a sham, and an attempt to use the color of law to revile and defame, not seek justice ... and which anyone with average intelligence knows. Others will find out that this is merely a waste of time by congress and that the legislative responsibilities they have are being ignored in a search for partisan vengeance.

More efforts to ruin the reputation of the USA, by proxy, in vilifying our commander in chief -- more subversion which aids and abets our enemies -- more displays of vicious, hateful efforts to gain votes by lying and attempting to cause failure for all the USA in your zeal to advance your party, alone.

when will those courageous Democrats who control Congress initiate impeachment?


Yawn. You need some new material.

"More efforts to ruin the reputation of the USA, by proxy, in vilifying our commander in chief"....yes, I agree, Ken Starr should never have been appointed, much less allowed to carry on a fishing expedition for two years at a cost of $70 million dollars. BTW, the rest of the world laughed their asses off at the US for that but they aren't laughing now at the current investigations.

Take your entire post and apply it to the Republican Congress that hounded Clinton. Then after your face isn't red any more come back with a serious thought.

-vilifying our commander in chief

He did that to himself.

The mixing of partisan political goals into federal law enforcement is highly improper and actionable.

Hide and watch.

More efforts to ruin the reputation of the USA, by proxy, in vilifying our commander in chief -- more subversion which aids and abets our enemies -- more displays of vicious, hateful efforts to gain votes by lying and attempting to cause failure for all the USA in your zeal to advance your party, alone.


Posted by tadowe


Why don't you give us a taste of the support tyou gave to Clinton while he was President?

Corky says, "The mixing of partisan political goals into federal law enforcement is highly improper and actionable."

I posted the law, the United States Code, and the applicable section.

If this congress, with your collective support, are really interested in making law enforcement seperate from politics, then change the U.S Code, and not attempt to fool the people by pretending that the law has somehow been broken!

That's the Big Lie being spread by Big Brother and the slavish minions of that gang of PT Barnum specialists!

"Hide and watch."

You're the one, and all of you, because you have your heads-in-the-sand about what is the real facts of the matter, and attempting to use the color of the law, just a pretend/imagined/dreamed situation you would like it to be, in order to convince the weak minded that Bush is evil.

What kind people you are, and all of you! You applaud the partisan witchhunters inventing crimes and failing to do the business of the nation, and revile our president who is IS doing his job and fighting the enemies of our country, and answering all your lies and muckraking, on top of that.

All of these investigations are invented, made-up or exaggerated all out of proportion to anything resembling reality. You don't seem capable of understanding the appearance you all present: nasty, loud-mouthed (even screaming) and revengful partisans, willing to suborn the law and justice to use it for revenge and the effort to destroy fellow American's reputations. Not for justice and the law, but to gain political advantage for your gang, alone.

You are pandering to fear to lose a war in order to gain a political profit, and the news is not good for losing -- it seems we might even win a security where the Iraqis can take control. So, you have to emphasize Conzales, and all the other petty, inane gripes the "leadership" can invent.

Then have their stooges post it on the blogs where the collective can emote and groan over -- thereby justifying their ends-justify-the-means philosophy of government . . .

Oooh! Like finding a nest of snakes under the piece of firewood your collecting!!!

Even old Reaganites see what dishonor this villainous CinC has brought to their beloved country.

www.drudge.com

-the Big Lie being spread by Big Brother

Translation: Anything that passes GW's lips.

The ranting GOP toadie, er Taddy, strikes again.


Tad, when you've finished wiping the spittle from your screen, note that this is about Gonzales' testimony regarding his and Card's bedside visit to Ashcroft in Commey's presence regarding the renewal of the president's TSP program. It's also about his denial of the fact that there were Congressional briefings on said policy prior to its expiration, an assertion disproven in a four-page DOJ memo. But hey, don't let that derail your patent It's-all-the-liberals-fault-
its-political-theater-commie-
pinko-traitor-witchhunt rant de jour.

Looks like someone forgot his medication again, and his thesaurus is nowhere in sight.

Looks like someone forgot his medication again...

LOL

That's a pretty good one!

Hadn't heard that before.

"Forgot to take his medication..."

*hee hee*

You guys are great! :)

So, you have to emphasize Conzales, and all the other petty, inane gripes the "leadership" can invent.

Is that a typo, or are you being pun-ny?

Hey, don't be a hater 'cause yer old and have heard it all before!

But in Tad's case, it's not humor but actual concern.

Eva misdirects (go figure), "Tad ... note that this is about Gonzales' testimony regarding his and Card's bedside visit to Ashcroft in Commey's presence regarding the renewal of the president's TSP program."

No it isn't, it is about the effort to invent some crime to lay at the feet of Bush. Well, really as we see today, it is about Rove and seeing if he can be made to contradict himself, in documents and, or testimony.

However, none of that can be acquired, legally, by congress and since they are executive documents concerning executive responsibilities outside the investigative rights of congress to get.

I posted the law, and nothing can be read into it -- there is no distraint to removing those attorneys.

As for Gonzales' testimony, it is the same sort of effort to use the color of law to seek political revenge, as was accomplished in pillorying Libby. It will backfire because Middle America, the everyday American can see what vicious, vengefull partisans you are. That the Leftist/Democratics are exactly the type that will establish camps to send those who disagee to stay for re-education, and stand over the victims, arms akimbo and sneering down their noses ...

...and a ***ZZZZZINGGG*** from the hot little Irish chick!!

Outta nowhere!

Ya'll are on fire today!

I notice Tad does not even mention the fishing expedition during the Clinton administration. His concern for the office of CinC seems rather selective.
Regardless of all of the deflections, claims that the president can fire attorneys at will, whatever, perjury still remains a crime. Whining about the Dems investigation won't change the fact that Gonzo brought this upon himself, whether he did it attempting to cover up real crimes (my bet) or just out of stupidity is irrelevant to the charge of perjury. He was given an opportunity to correct his testimony and turned it down so he is willingly putting himself at risk, similar to a certain Scooter. I have to begin believing that high officials would not do that for no reason. I believe there are crimes and this attempted coverup is a surprising indication of that view.

""It will backfire because Middle America, the everyday American can see what vicious, vengefull partisans you are.""

Uh-huh as indicated by the percentage of people already in favor of impeachment.


Righto - getting beyond the "lefty/righty" thing for a minute, and whether or not the USA's coulda/shoulda been dismissed, and whether or not you like the reason he was called before Congress, do you believe:

1. That Gonzales has been honest and forthcoming in his sworn testimony before Congress.

2. Has been an effective, competent leader of the DOJ.


Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2007-07-26 01:53 PM


1. Probably not, but what politician (yes, that is what Gonzo is) is truly "honest and forthcoming", even when under oath?

2. I know about 30 AUSA's, both current and former, here in CA and at DOJ main, and most of them say that the DOJ has never run better (mostly because the people that actually run the Department are lifers and ignore the politicos).

One senior AUSA at DOJ Main told me recently that while they think that terminating the USA's for "political reasons" by the Admin sucks, the prevailing view is that Congress and these investigations are doing more to "politicize" the DOJ then any amount of firings could possibly do.

Most of these people are just attorneys trying to do their jobs, and tend to ignore the political maelstrom whenever possible.

How is this news? Gonzales himself contradicted his own sworn testimony... lol

Yeppers TwinPac. Sad to say but that's Dubya's method of Operation. ALways has been ALways will be. I am sure He never watched Mr Rogers or Sesame Street growing up. That is for DAMNED sure.

Larry

Posted by LarryMohr at 2007-07-26 07:31 AM | Reply |

Just WTH does mr rogers or sesame street have to do with this? Please explain, there has gotta be a good laugh in that.

BILL MOYERS: You're also angry in here about the Justice Department under Gonzalez and boys, why?

VICTOR GOLD: I think it's a corrupted justice department. When I say "corrupted," I don't mean dollars and cents. I mean corrupted in terms of the values of our con-- our constitutional values. And I think you've heard some of the prosecuting attorneys who were fired speak out and the-- some of the investigation-- the investigations bringing out exactly what's going on up there. And when you corrupt the justice system, the Justice Department, that's the most important department of government in terms of protecting our constitutional values. One of the reasons I wanted the Democrats to win was because I knew the yo-yo Republicans on the Hill were not going to investigate even those they-- we-- we claim we are the constitutionalists. We are the ones concerned about the Constitution. We want strict constructionist judges. We don't want to over-- over-- overreaching-- overreaching federal government. The fact is the-- I knew there would be investigations. And I-- I-- I want these investigations to go on 'cause they weren't going on when the Republicans were in control of Congress.


www.pbs.org

Gold is a long time Republican strategist, the guy who invented the phrase "nattering nabobs of negativism" and recent author of the book "The Party Snatchers: How the Holy Rollers and the Neocons Destroyed the GOP."

No right... Gonzales is not by any means a "politician".... he has a "real" job, and is not elected to that job.

Gonzales is not by any means a "politician".... he has a "real" job, and is not elected to that job.

Posted by KnightHawk at 2007-07-26 03:49 PM


Either you are young, incredibly naive or truly don't understand how things work inside the Beltway: all political appointees (which is what Gonzo and all of the USA's are) are by definition politicians. You don't have to be elected to an office to qualify.

"FBI director contradicts Gonzales

WASHINGTON - FBI Director Robert S. Mueller said Thursday the government's terrorist surveillance program was the topic of a 2004 hospital room dispute between top Bush administration officials, contradicting Attorney General Alberto Gonzales' sworn Senate testimony."

news.yahoo.com

"On Tuesday, Gonzales repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the terrorist surveillance program."

Time for the "I don't recall" defense.

"Time for the "I don't recall" defense."

Danni - I don't think saying "I don't recall repeatedly and emphatically denying that just a few hours ago" is going to cut it this time!

No right... Gonzales is not by any means a "politician".... he has a "real" job, and is not elected to that job.

Posted by KnightHawk at 2007-07-26 03:49 PM | Reply

I beg to differ. Isn't that what the SENATE does when the President chooses someone for a Job?? They either deside to elect Him or not by Voting Aye or Ney. During the confirmation hearings and subsequent full Senate vote if He makes it past the commitie.

Larry

Danni says, "I notice Tad does not even mention the fishing expedition during the Clinton administration. His concern for the office of CinC seems rather selective."

If I mention Clinton, of course the propaganda parrots of the Left sneer that down. If I don't bring-up the name of Clinton, the Left sneers that down, too.

What "fishing expeditions"? There is hardly any Leftist/Democrat alive who doesn't know all the criminals which started to fall like dominoes from the beginning of Hillary's Rose Law firm, Whitewater days (where she just didn't recall), and Bill's trouble with his sexual harassment problems -- neither of which were invented or "witch hunts". As much as you would like the situations to be equivalent, they are not in any way the same.

Indeed! Just trying to mix that fruit salad indicates the urge for revenge, to get-even the Leftist/Democrats have and that they are the ones who are inventing excuses to do so, to say what you have just written.

"Regardless of all of the deflections, claims that the president can fire attorneys at will, whatever, perjury still remains a crime."

See? Whatever mistakes someone makes in an "investigation" of no crime by congress, the Leftist/Democratic congress and their teeth-knashing minions will attempt to use it for the personal destruction of an individual, in order to get Bush, and thereby smash those who did it to their ex-gangleader ...

... the one with the wet Cohiba, stuck somewhere moist ...

Now, they want a man ruined, his life destroyed to get even. How proud you all must be!?! Subverting a war, destroying fellow Americans, embarrassing the entire United States so that you can gain power and rule the judiciary, the congress and the presidency ...

... The punishments you can levy then! True power and true revenge for those you hate and revile, here, daily!

You must be creaming your pants in expectation, eh? Got your riding crop ready?

Just WTH does mr rogers or sesame street have to do with this? Please explain, there has gotta be a good laugh in that.

Posted by KnightHawk at 2007-07-26 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Didn't both shows Teach the Youngsters not to Lie?? Didnm't they teach the Kiddies that Honesty was the best policy?? Welp Dubya sure didn't watch those Programs now did He.

Larry

Any possibility of getting a "Bloviator" flag added to the menu?

Didn't both shows Teach the Youngsters not to Lie?? Didnm't they teach the Kiddies that Honesty was the best policy?? Welp Dubya sure didn't watch those Programs now did He.

Larry

Posted by LarryMohr at 2007-07-26 04:08 PM | Reply |

Damn... no laughs... :(


At this point in my life remembering back that far is getting harder, but honestly I don't remember much about honesty from those shows.... although I'm sure they didn't exactly preach dishonesty.

No right... Gonzales is not by any means a "politician".... he has a "real" job, and is not elected to that job.

Posted by KnightHawk at 2007-07-26 03:49 PM | Reply

I beg to differ. Isn't that what the SENATE does when the President chooses someone for a Job?? They either deside to elect Him or not by Voting Aye or Ney. During the confirmation hearings and subsequent full Senate vote if He makes it past the commitie.

Larry

Posted by LarryMohr at 2007-07-26 04:05 PM | Reply |


And this is why larry kicks ass all over Rightocenter an many others....

A proper fuckin retort right here... I stand corrected.

""Now, they want a man ruined, his life destroyed to get even.""

I doubt anyone wants to ruin Gonzo, he was even given a chance to change his testimony. I won't argue though that they won't go after him as a means to an end....that is Bush who they have plenty of good reasons to go after....namely an unnecessary war, subversion of the constitution, cronyism costing billions in corrupt deals, etc. etc. etc.

You love these guys Tad, that's your problem, the majority of the country wants their heads.

Re: The fact is, "[US Attorneys can be fired] any time for any reason

A partisan ignorantly replies, "I don't know how many times I've read or heard this, but it is patently untrue."

28 U.S.C ; 54 (c)

(a) The President shall appoint, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, a United States attorney for each judicial district.
(b) Each United States attorney shall be appointed for a term of four years. On the expiration of his term, a United States attorney shall continue to perform the duties of his office until his successor is appointed and qualifies.
(c) Each United States attorney is subject to removal by the President. END REFERENCE

Response: You need to get your head around the fact that it is legal for the president to fire any and all attorneys, and yet the REASON for the firing is still of vital interest to Congress and to Americans in general. And hence the investigation is perfectly proper.

To make it simple, let's take an analogy: Supposing a president asked the IRS to audit the tax statements of a group of people. Would he have the right to do it? Sure, if they were members of organized crime or suspected terrorists. But what if they were merely members of the opposition party?

Yes, he would probably still have the legal right to make that request, but if it was done in order to hurt his (or these days I should say "or her") opponents, it is morally wrong, and that is the kind of thing we should hear about in a democracy.

In fact, sadly, there has been a very recent case of this in New York State, where some aides to the Democratic governor asked the head of the state police to do some special investigations of a top Republican, and the results were subsequently leaked to harm that politician. When the news of the special investigation of the Republican came out, it caused a stink, harming not the Republican, but the Democrat.

In the current issue of the attorneys, the issue is not that some were fired. As you point out, the president has the right to fire some or all attorneys, and, has been frequently noted, Clinton fired all of them at one time. And, the issue also isn't whether Republican attorneys were fired or Democrat attorneys. Democratic presidents often fire Republican AGs, and vice versa. In this case, all the attorneys had been appointed by Bush earlier.

The issue is whether certain attorneys were fired because they either failed to prosecute Democrats or did prosecute Republicans before the election. When a politician has been announced to be "under investigation" that tends to harm that person's chances of election.

What if aides a top leader of one party asked that in a period of time shortly before the election that attorneys should tend to prosecute politicians from the other party as much as possible and to prosecute politicians from the same party as little as possible? What if just asking was not successful, so to put a little pressure on the attorneys, they created a list of attorneys to be fired who had failed to carry out the guidelines of prosecuting politicians from party A and not prosecuting those of party B?

Doing this would be perfectly legal; the president, as you say, has the right to fire any US attorney. But we have the right to know if indeed this alleged reason for the firings indeed was the case.
< A common response might be, "but there has been no evidence that any pressure was brought on the attorneys to investigate or not investigate." This may be true, but the investigation is far from over, and if it doesn't get the evidence it requires, we will never know.

Danni says, "I doubt anyone wants to ruin Gonzo ..."

Just too funny! You continue to perform the deconstruction of him by mocking his name, while you deny any real desire to destroy him.

The Leftist/Democratics are being represented by your prolific efforts to dehumanize every Republican, every conservative you can. Today your propaganda masters have Gonzales in the foreground, tomorrow some other calumny you minions can use to vilify your opponents. Daily subversion of the war and all for party revenge and to become the supreme political power in the USA.

-- Your gang uber alles --

Here's someone that "wants to ruin Gonzo"....

the director of the FBI.....

FBI director contradicts Gonzales

"In his own sworn testimony Thursday, Mueller contradicted his boss, saying under questioning that the terrorist surveillance program (TSP) was the topic of the hospital room dispute between top Bush administration officials."

news.yahoo.com

Just another traitorous scum Libral vilifying Tad's Deity in Chief, lol.


Congratulations, Danni, you know represent the Leftist/Democrat(ics) movement! Who knew you were even running.

Give it up, Tadlington, despite your best efforts just about everything you post here can be boiled down to these words: it is all the Democrats' and liberals' fault.

Corky, but according to Tadowe the TSP has nothing to do with this "withhunt" and "political theater."

So, Gonzo is obviously lying, but Tad sees it as nothing about which to be concerned. Wonder what he thought during the Clinton scandal.

Tad-slow down dude! Kick back-and wash some of that sand outta yer panties-(that's gotta be uncomfortable)-you can make all the claims about the Clintons you want-but-since there were no prosecutions to speak of-your spewing ancient talking points that weren't relevent even when bubba was still in office-is hollow at best.
"The Leftist/Democratics are being represented by your prolific efforts to dehumanize every Republican, every conservative you can. Today your propaganda masters have Gonzales in the foreground, tomorrow some other calumny you minions can use to vilify your opponents"

Will you please untwist your panties?

Those asswipes are getting what they deserve-whether you agree or not-the majority of Americans DO agree-yer outvoted-AGAIN-so give it up.....
WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!! WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

Ah-crap on a cracker!taddies at it again! Sombody call the Conservative waaaaaahhhhhmbulance for him....

Gee Knighthawk, I think Larry was actually agreeing with me, when I said a political appointee is a politician. But if your bruised feelings tell you otherwise, that's okay.

Larry, I know you and I agreeing on something doesn't happen very often, but I have never accused you of not knowing how politics works.

:^)

The shorter Tadowe-
It's OK for the AG to lie to congress.

"The shorter Tadowe-
It's OK for the AG to lie to congress.

Posted by Boyd"

ie - Tad the Bloviator, sans bloviation

Perjury after perjury after perjury by the nation's top justice official. Are we in opposite world or what?

Bush and his political appointees. The gift that keeps on giving. To Tad who composes intricate defenses of the indefensible and to their political opponents who get to celebrate Christmas every week.

This is all political theater--

And I dont like Gonzo--he appears incompetent--I wish Bush would have him leave. And its because of the Sandy Burglar caper--he should have been jailed for stuffing and stealing papers before Clinton testified before the 9/11 Commission.

But this nonsense about what went on in the hospital room--was SUPPOSED to be TOP SECRET! Like National Defense stuff.

Did anyone see Mueller when he testified? He looked like he was sitting on flaming hemorroids answering that question. Frankly, I am not sure what he was trying to say. Really!

I'll bet dollars to donuts that Mueller "clarifies" his testimony.

How can the Congress be asking in open forum questions about Top Security programs for the country? That is supposed to be for the New York Times to print for our enemies to read. That Pinche Cabron Schultzer.

This has been going on for what? 7 months plus, over 10,000 dcouments have been turned over. About 4000 hours or more of time and testimony in front of cameras and behind closed doors. The administration has offered to have Rove and Meirs talk with the committee--without the cameras--the Dems won't go there!--Why not?

Because the theater would be empty.

Murphy

Because the theater would be empty.

Murphy


Not just that - the theater would be empty because nobody was allowed in. Private testimony not under oath is worthless, which ever side you are on.

Gonzales has now clearly lied under oath. The chips have got to start falling. Soon.

the investigation is perfectly proper.

You are right. The investigation is perfectly proper -- Congress has the right to investigate anything it wants, for any reason whatsoever. In this case, their investigation is running headlong into a "separation of powers" issue that can only be resolved by the SCOTUS if either the Congress or the Executive branch decide to bring it to them.


(c) Each United States attorney is subject to removal by the President.

You'll notice that there are no restrictions on the power of the President to remove a US Attorney, his political appointees. He can get rid of them for any reason or no reason at all if he wants.

Ultimately what Bush is doing is challenging the authority of Congress to even issue a subpoena in order to question the "executive Branch" about this issue -- an issue they clearly have no jurisdiction over -- the firing of political appointees that serve at the pleasure of the President and can be fired at any time for any reason (or no reason) for that matter.

In that same vein, The Bush administration is also making the argument that Congress cannot force the U.S. Attorney, to pursue contempt charges against another "executive branch" subordinate who is being charged for following the President's directives. To do so, would be to give Congress the power to take the resources of the Executive branch and use them to undermine the authority of the head of the executive branch -- the President -- and that would be a a violation of the "separation of powers" and infringe on the power of the Executive branch.

Bowa-
Great. Then why are they lying about it?

Bowa-
And how would Congress bring this issue before the SC?

Great. Then why are they lying about it?

There is no "they" -- There is only Alberto Gonzalez - and Gonzo is a buffoon. As I said yesterday, I think when he doesn't know something -- rather then just say "I don't know" he makes it up or fudge. frankly, I think the Congress should charge him with perjury and hold him in contempt.

But none of Gonzo's dissembling over attorney firings could ever result in opening the door to the inner workings of the WH since the Congresas doesn't have any jurisdiction over the executive branch when it comes to the hiring and firing of political appointees.

And how would Congress bring this issue before the SC?

Congress has the the power to petition the SCOTUS to intervene.

The Presidnet also has the power to bring it before the court -- and I suspect if Congress uses it's "inherent contempt" power to arrest harriet Meirs, it will be the President who petitions the SCOTUS to intervene.

"And I wonder how the Religious Right feels knowing that Bush's Attorney General put his hand on a Bible, swore to God to tell the truth, and then lied because Bush told him to?"

Given their media preferences they'd hardly be aware of it.

Bowa-
re: There is no "they" -- There is only Alberto Gonzalez - and Gonzo is a buffoon. As I said yesterday, I think when he doesn't know something -- rather then just say "I don't know" he makes it up or fudge. frankly, I think the Congress should charge him with perjury and hold him in contempt.

Given that Bush has repeatedly expressed full confidence in Gonzales, and that the President has announced that contempt charges will not be pursued by HIS Department of Justice, then I have to wonder. If Gonzales is the problem, and is as you have said recently "incompetent" and a "dissembler" (ie, a liar) then why hasn't Bush asked him to step down?

Here are a couple of choices:

1. Bush is so unfit to lead that he can't ask his former personal lawyer to resign.

2. Gonzales is serving the president, by lying.

The Presidnet also has the power to bring it before the court -

LOL.

Bowa-
BTW, in case you haven't read the news today:

www.washingtonpost.com

Bowa-
re: Congress has the the power to petition the SCOTUS to intervene.

That's awfully nice. So the Congress has the "power" to ASK the SC to intervene...


But, according to you, the WH is just salivating at a judicial review, even though they have avoided one at all costs both in this matter and in the matter of the TSP, and in the matter of torture, and in their desire to hold ANYONE indefinitely without charges.

You have an interesting view of this democracy, dude.

Here are a couple of choices:

1. Bush is so unfit to lead that he can't ask his former personal lawyer to resign.

2. Gonzales is serving the president, by lying.


The 3rd choice, and the one I believe is the reason he hasn't asked him to step down yet is because the nomination process for a new AG in this hostile climate would be even more politically damaging then keeping Gonzo around.

I am hoping that Bush cans Gonzo in August during the Congressional recess -- and then Bush can do a recess appointment of a new AG and circumvent a Congressional hearing on the nomination.

But that might not happen either.

Bush very well could believe that it's not even about Gonzo anymore -- that it is such a highly politicized "separation of powers" issue, that he wants to force a constitutional crisis and have the SCOTUS decide it.

Or choice #4, maybe your Hero is just a brainless buffoon who has no clue what is going on around him. (I still remember he thought Brownie was doing a helluva job.)

But, according to you, the WH is just salivating at a judicial review, even though they have avoided one at all costs

That's not really true. The Executive branch is avoiding being forced by Congress to use the Executive branch to take action against itself.

I think that's a "sep of powers" issue that can only be resolved by the SCOTUS

Bowa-
re: The 3rd choice, and the one I believe is the reason he hasn't asked him to step down yet is because the nomination process for a new AG in this hostile climate would be even more politically damaging then keeping Gonzo around.

So, the reason that Bush has "full confidence" in an incompetent liar is that the next guy might not be, and that might be "politically" damaging to Bush personally, unless he can possibly cram through another toady during recess.

Thanks, Bowa.

Moder and Boyd, I bet neither of you thought about the recess appointment power of the president....how would you react if Gonzo stepped down and Bush immediately appointed a new AG during the recess without needing the 'advise and consent" of Congress?

Bush very well could believe that it's not even about Gonzo anymore -- that it is such a highly politicized "separation of powers" issue, that he wants to force a constitutional crisis and have the SCOTUS decide it.

Posted by Bowa at 2007-07-27 01:30 AM |


Good guess,
given the 5-4 disposition of the SCOTUS...

So, the reason that Bush has "full confidence" in an incompetent liar is that the next guy might not be, and that might be "politically" damaging to Bush personally, unless he can possibly cram through another toady during recess.

I wouldn't characterize it that way.

I would just say that in a confrontational partsan atmosphere where the Democrats are doing everything they can, using accusations and investigations etc., to attack the Administrtion and undermine the ability of the Executive Branch to function - then it makes political sense to keep Gonzo in place e until that time a change can be made which would deny the democrats the abilty to challenge it in any way.

Bowa-
re: That's not really true. The Executive branch is avoiding being forced by Congress to use the Executive branch to take action against itself.

As you seem comfortable with the fact that the most direct avenue to a court ruling has been blocked by the President, I really have no respect for your claim that a court -any court - would rule in the executive's favor.

But I'm sure it sounds convincing in whatever forum you got it from.

But I'm sure it sounds convincing in whatever forum you got it from.

I didn't get it from any forum. I have been reading up on the issue in numerous sources.

I have yet to see how Congress meets the burden of proving they have jurisdiction over the President's political appointees.

That would seem to be the main source of the authority which gave the president the power to direct his subordinates to ignore the subpoena.

And if Bush, is claiming the authority, to ignore the subpoena then he is also claiming the authority to ignore any contempt charge resulting from ignoring the subpoena.

maybe the Congress should file contempt charges against the US attorney for following the directives of their boss as well.

Any way you slice it, you end up with a constitutional crisis in which the President is claiming that the Congress is attempting to infringe on the powers of the executive branch.

...it makes political sense to keep Gonzo in place e until that time a change can be made which would deny the democrats the abilty to challenge it in any way.

But that's the only sense it, or you, makes.

But that seems to be your primary consideration. Your main allegiance is to a party and a man, and constitutional or even legal considerations are secondary.

I have to say that you seem like a nice fellow, but you are really fucked up.

'night.


www.crooksandliars.com

BOWA-
re: I have yet to see how Congress meets the burden of proving they have jurisdiction over the President's political appointees.

Read the article, and the topic of the thread.

I'm sorry if your ranting is not reflective of reality, but then I really didn't have anything to do with that. The AG is a liar, and you wish for him to stay on until Bush can replace him with another toady.

Think about that.

Later.

Your main allegiance is to a party and a man, and constitutional or even legal considerations are secondary.

That is just not true.

I have watched for years now the attempt by democrats in Congress to criminalize the political maneuvers of Republicans and especially the President.

I admit, and I think most republicans would probably admit that Gonzalez needs to go-- but not at the cost of the balance of the separation of powers.

There is an attack on the powers of the Presidency going on, in part because the Congress believes that Bush attacked the powers of Congress and expanded his authority beyond his Constitutional mandate.

however, Bush, as a "wartime Presidnet" has not done anything unique or extraoridinary with the expanded powers a wartime President has historically enjoyed.

The constitutionality of what both the Presidnet and Congress is doing is debateable which is why, at some point, the SCOTUS will have to get involved.

Goodnight

I guess any president can start a war to be a 'war president', with all the rights and privileges afforded him, like suspending Constitutional rights, habeas corpus, and whatever else he thinks is OK, then stonewall and hide behind the curtain of Executive Privilege to prevent inquiries as to whether or not he's abusing those extraordinary powers granted a 'war president'.

I remember the smirk on Bush's face when he announced to all the world he's a 'war president'. What a loser.

Forget the legal and constitutional implications of politicizing justice. The admin's media and political hacks can obfuscate that to death. What they can't do is disguise the fact that Gonzo rushed to Ashcroft's bedside as he was recovering from illness in order to pressure him to sign off on presidential wrongdoing. Doing it in front of witnesses too. You don't need a constitutional scholar to figure that one out.

While this admin expends so much effort covering up their wrongdoing, Gonzo brings it into the open by repeating stupid lies over and over again. Thank God for Gonzo, he personalizes the otherwise anonymous amorality of this White House.

""however, Bush, as a "wartime Presidnet" has not done anything unique or extraoridinary with the expanded powers a wartime President has historically enjoyed.""

You do not know that. Since they make it secret you can't have any idea what they have done. Bush admitted himself that earlier in his presidency they were eavesdropping on phone conversations without FISA warrants and then even after agreeing to get FISA warrants they refused to divulge who they had eavesdropped on previously. From hints from the WH, they are still doing it without warrants. This is the most secretive administration in history and the terrorism excuse just doesn't justify most of it. My bet is that were the truth known even most of the right would object to the things they have been doing.

Re: (c) Each United States attorney is subject to removal by the President.

And: You'll notice that there are no restrictions on the power of the President to remove a US Attorney, his political appointees. He can get rid of them for any reason or no reason at all if he wants.

Reply: Yes. He has the power to get rid of them for any reason or no reason, as you say. But is that a good thing? Yes, that is the current law, but maybe it should be changed.

I know it is fashionable these days to wring our hands and say, "well, that seems unworkable and maybe it should be changed" and then conclude "but nothing can be done." But if we always act like that, then nothing will be done for sure.

It is true that US attorneys have always been appointed and can be dismissed by the president. But maybe they should be brought under the civil service Hatch Act. After all, look at their powers. If they merely say that a Republican or a Democrat who is up for election is "under investigation," then that person would have great difficulty in winning the next election. (It can happen, as in the case of the New Jersey senator, but it is difficult.)

Yet it is easy to launch an investigation even if you do not think there is much evidence. There's no penalty if you investigate and then announce, "sorry, no evidence." And this can be done by both sides: Republicans investigating Democrats or vice versa.

In this case we have the allegation that top staff at the White House had a plan to encourage the US attorneys to investigate Democrat candidates and not investigate Republican candidates before the last election. This is not illegal. Then they, or some senators and other middle men perhaps, called the attorneys asking them to investigate specific Democrats and not investigate specific Republicans. This is not illegal either.

Then some attorneys apparently did not do what they were requested to do, and then they were fired. This is not illegal either. But if the cause of the firings was to penalize them for not obeying this order and/or to warn the other attorneys to do what they are told on the political fronts, then we Americans ought to know about it.

For sure, if this was indeed done, then you can expect that a Democratic president will do it too.

Personally, I do not think that these allegations were actually true. I prefer to think of the White House staff as highly moral and truly democratic (small d) and would never use their powers in such an unfair way. But you never can tell. Remember Watergate?

To be sure, Watergate was illegal, and this, if true, is merely unfair. But it's the kind of unfair that we Americans really need to know about. We need to expect that our US attorneys will be fair to both parties, even if appointed by a president of the other party. Or, if we cannot expect that, perhaps we should bring the US attorneys under civil service and the rules that apply to bar political activities by civil servants (the Hatch Act.)

"Today liberals hate President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. I'm not too crazy about those two birds either, but there's a difference: they are exactly the bogus "conservatives" the liberals deserve and ought to be grateful for, or at least accept as a penance. So why are liberals rejecting their own?

Since the days of Franklin D. Roosevelt, liberals have worshipped the executive branch of government, celebrating those presidents who have usurped most power, just as they have shown enthusiasm for foreign "leaders" (their euphemism for dictators) who have ruled most, er, progressively. They'd like us to forget how they used to coo over Stalin, Mao, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, and even, briefly, Pol Pot, who was, in the words of a New York Times columnist, "building a new society" in Cambodia.

Roosevelt, avatar of centralized power and one-man rule, not only befriended "Uncle Joe" Stalin but modeled his New Deal on Mussolini's Fascism. Why he disliked Hitler is anyone's guess, but I think we can safely say it wasn't humanitarian principle.

Principle? The word should never be mentioned in the same breath with Roosevelt. When the U.S. Supreme Court struck down his Fascist-inspired National Recovery Act as unconstitutional, his response was to try to turn the judiciary into a tool of the executive branch. This was too much even for his own party, and he failed -- though he later got his way by filling the Court with his compliant cronies.

Liberals supported Roosevelt's efforts to transform the very nature of the Court, and after that they also applauded the Court's own usurpations of power. All this is good to bear in mind as they rail against both executive and judicial abuses of authority today."
www.sobran.com

Golly gee whiz, Bowow......

couldn't you find any politically hysterically fringe, historically revisionist loony toon Reich-wingers to quote?

couldn't you find any politically hysterically fringe, historically revisionist loony toon Reich-wingers to quote?



Posted by Corky at 2007-07-27 10:11 AM |


I raise you a "Churchill"

Do you quote him? Do I?

Case closed.

Couldn't you find any politically hysterically fringe, historically revisionist loony toon Reich-wingers to quote?

LOL

Corky, I don't agree with Sobrans characterization of FDR or Bush/Cheney -- or the comparison of them to some of the world's most heinous dicators. That's just wrong.

As you know, I am a supporter of the expanded powers of the "war time President" and the concept of the unitary executive in general.

I posted the Sobran quote because it highlights the hypocrisy of the left on this issue in a very emphatic way.

I do believe that most of the hatred and distrust of Bush is about the (R) next to his name and not anything he has done with wartime powers of the "executive branch" which relative to other President's in similar situations has not been out of line at all.


No Bowa,

Most of the hatred and distrust of Bush is due his propagation of the policies of his admitted constituency, the "have and have more's".

Ultra-secretive, big spending, rights denying, intelligence cherry-picking, incompetent preemptive war, loyalty before competency, Katrina bungling mismanagement of the Public Trust are just some of the quite rational reasons that the American people, not just Dems, hate and mistrust Bush.

This is why we hate Dubya. THIS IS WHY LOKISFUR.

www.msnbc.msn.com

Larry

""I do believe that most of the hatred and distrust of Bush is about the (R) next to his name and not anything he has done with wartime powers of the "executive branch" which relative to other President's in similar situations has not been out of line at all.""

Yeah, our opposition to the Iraq war is just based on which party the president is a member of. Yeah, just like Lyndon Johnson was immune from criticism of his war because he was a Democrat.
It is amazing that anyone would even make such a nonsensical post.
It's the Iraq war stupid.

Now I have to go get a Blues Brothers DVD.

Posted by Zatoichi at 2007-07-26 01:44 PM | Reply

One of my fav's.

Right up there with Slapshot and Caddyshack.

could someone tell BOWA that the favorite animal of the right is the Hippopotamus as it is closest to Hypocrite, their friend. The funny part is, he doesn't know that.

Re: Principle? The word should never be mentioned in the same breath with Roosevelt.

This seems irrelevant to this discussion.
Still, though Roosevelt had many flaws, his achievements include:

Social Security
Federal Deposit Insurance
The SEC
The FCC

This guy has to go!!!

Yawn. You need some new material.

Posted by midiman at 2007-07-26 02:52 PM | Reply

Nahh. For six years I read the same old shit. IMPEACH! Give us a Dem majority and we will IMPEACH!

The problem is that your gang of turds got new material as soon as they were elected. The new theme: RE-ELECT US!

It ain't over till its over Vermin...

Let the Checks and Balances Begin!(tm)

dunnderboy: it's not going to happen and you know it as well as I do. All those noble and heroic Dems care about is getting re-elected.

Take a reality pill.

I finally caught the clip that matthews was spitting about shoing Gonzo "lying".

Schumer has a hard on for sure--I think the table was rising!

Not sure why since the answer Gonzo gave was so vague--probably because they are talking about Top Secret programs--Somthing like, "Yes we were talking about natinoal security programs".

Schumer kept wanting specifics--"Was it the TSP program?"

Gonzo would not answer specific to the TSP program--just that they talked about national security programs.

Someone want to explain how that is lying?

And Mueller with his hemmoroid answer agreed with Shirley that the conversatin was regarding national security programs--but again he would not specify if it was the TSP or the NSA wiretapping--which was the quesiton by the good congresswoman.

So they all have one thing in common--the conversation was about national security reasons--and no specifics because the stuff is top secret.

WOW! This will go far!

Murphy

Murphy-
It's clear now that not only was Bush and the NSA warrantlessly wiretapping in the program "described by the President", but prior to 2004 they were doing something much more egregious.

But you don't care.

Murphy-
Allow me to spell it out for you, in case you haven't caught on:

Gonzales and the Bush admin. are playing a semantic game. They claim that what they did prior to 2005 was not "TSP", but "other intelligence programs" - the ones that Ashcroft, Comey, Mueller, etc. were prepared to resign over if they were continued. And we have no idea what those "programs" were.

Do you get it yet?

Murphy-
This is why Gonzales, et al, have tried to shift their comments to "the program the president spoke of", or some other such nonsense. It's because the TSP program changed in 2004/2005 due to the willingness of much of the hierarchy of the FBI and the DoJ to resign in protest if whatever the Administration was doing was continued. This event coincided with Gonzales visit to Ashcroft's hospital room.

My question to you, Murphy, now that I have notified you of this thread, is:

Do you care?

Sorry for the delay--but I have an 11 year old with a loose tooth--no doubt!

The fact still remains that you're more likely to die in a car accident, of cancer or on the golf course than you are to die in a Terrorist attack on American soil

You are praying for that scenario--but what about the thousands of other Americans who get killed by their activity? You are so great to hand their lives over..

The admin was following the Fort Dix thing for 18 months AFTER the VIDEO was discovered--so much for that--

People can not see when they are blind!

The "bogeyman" is real--and I cannot phathom that you realistic--critical thingking folks dont see that.

Murphy

And the programs were overseen by Dems and Repubs--Yes--in secret--but good golly--it is for the American People.

We can disagree with that statement--but you cannot disagree with the FACT that we have not been hit since 9/11.

Let's pray it stays that way!

Murphy

Murphy-
re: And the programs were overseen by Dems and Repubs

Bullshit

Murphy-
re: We can disagree with that statement--but you cannot disagree with the FACT that we have not been hit since 9/11.

Let's pray it stays that way!


Might as well, as the Iraq war has drawn from a possible success in Afghanistan to create a lose/lose scenario in both arenas, has bolstered the appeal of Al Qaeda, and has generally been a strategic disaster for the US and the world at large.

Murphy-
re: "the programs"

What programs?

You are so great to hand their lives over..


C'mon Murphy, if you're going to call me a murderer, just come right out and say so.

However, I think you have me confused with George W Bush and his pals from the PNAC.

What a shitty arguement there and I was being nice too.

So, happily I say unto thee, screw you babe.

Trees--that is the problem with posting--

I NEVER called you a murderer.

That is the liberal side of your supposed argument coming thru.

And both you folks refuse to see that maybe--just maybe the Surge is working--lat reports is that the Surge is working--now if we could get the polictical process in gear--but it wont be before the September Report--as the assholes in Iraq are out for the summer heat.

Only it took 10 years for our Democracy to unfold. No mind to that.

But that would mean Bush was right and you are wrong--and you need to have a lose / lose situation.

God forbid Bush was right and we could win!!!

Winning would be losing for you critical thinkers. No vision.

Not that I agree with the way this war was handled--it has been absurd!!

And go ahead and twist that word around--but you know what I mean.

Murphy

"latest" report should be the post

Murphy

Bye

Murphy

Murphy-
Yeah, I know what you mean.

re: But that would mean Bush was right and you are wrong--and you need to have a lose / lose situation.

You just accused me and sixty-plus percent of the US population of being traitors for being able to see the obvious reality.

I've heard it before.

Unfortunately, Murphy, it seems that you place Bush "being right" above everything else, even reality, the constitution, the law, and the future of the US.

God forbid Bush was right and we could win!!!


Murphy


Who's we these days? The 700,000 plus Iraqi people who happen to be human ~ like most of us here ~ who have died for Oil?

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