Nothing quite like making their point for them.

Give O'Reilly a few minutes before he comes on and dominates the thread to justify everything Chavez does. It'll be funny, as usual.

Guess we better start gearing up to invade. We have to save the Venezuelan people from the dictatorship of the 60% majority.

WOW...that Chavez guy is trying to turn Venezuela into a police state like the U.S.! I wonder if Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore approve of this new action?

This guy is scary! He has already knocked out 2 tv stations that criticized him on the news. Bush's wet dream.

Maybe they'll start calling American cheese "Freedom Cheese".

Chavez, Putin, old Castro.... they can't stand criticism and dissent. Putin quietly assassinate them, Chavez openly punish them, and we have a long list of what Fidel Castro did....

Than Swine of Burma and Kim Jong Il of N. Korea.... Sudan... Mugabe.... the world is still filled with problem leaders.

The Dixie Chicks, Michael Moore, Maddona, Cindy Sheehan, Bill Maher, and many others are still free to move about and freely open their mouth as they wish. Freedom indeed. What a blessed land.

LOL

I am sure that when Chavez was critcizing bush they loved him...so now let's see the hypocrites on the left defend these comments.

I wonder how President Bush would react if there was a coup attempt here?
And if it were supported by a nation close by?

"I am sure that when Chavez was critcizing bush they loved him...so now let's see the hypocrites on the left defend these comments."

Nawww...they're all off on some other thread ignoring this stuff. It never ceases to amaze me how they can switch allegiance from one "hero" to another at the flick of a switch.

and if obama were president he says that he would sit and talk to this prick with no pre conditions...in other words obama would give him all the vindication he needed for his actions....
and noice.....danni STILL supports him...
I thought maybe this would be the thing that moved her away from this gathering socialist movement.....I guess it may take a few thousand deaths and imprisonment....and then will THAT be enough for her......

Wow, you'd think Chavez had threatened to confiscate the property of his critics or something, like Bush.

"The Executive Order entitled "Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten Stabilization Efforts in Iraq" provides the President with the authority to confiscate the assets of whoever opposes the US led war.

A presidential Executive Order issued on July 17th, repeals with the stroke of a pen the right to dissent and to oppose the Pentagon's military agenda in Iraq."

danni....people tell us here all the time that we are crazy to believe that muslims will be able to change our whole system and invade us and force us to praise allah at the risk of death....if that is so unplasible, then your coup attempt would seem to be equally implausible....

I also respectfully challenge your note on the amount of people who support chavez and the vote......remembering those votes for sadaam....what were they 99% or so........
and if he is so loved, then he wouldnt HAVE ANY DISSIDENT VOICES to get rid of....or at least he wouldnt have to worry about them.....would he?

Maybe instead of kicking them out he should institute a "Fairness Doctrine". If you say one bad thing about him, then you need to say one nice thing. There would then be balance and the people could stay.

"and they will cum just as much if the same thing happened here with the socalled fairness doctrine......if it does they will all have to buy new jizz rags they will have so many orgasms over this hero of theirs and how we can become just like him..."

Typical classy statement from the moron named Bushlover, who apparently is obsessed with "jizz".

Let the lovefest begin, Danni is partying and O'Crap'O'Meter should be along soon. Whatever you do partiers, do NOT give the students in Venezuala that march for free speech in their country ANY hope. SUPPORT CHAVEZ--THE HERO! Afterall, he gave a UN speech that was near and dear to your heart.

I dont believe that is the purpose of the order and I dont know that you believe that either.........is it just another convienent way to bash bush?

when I say not the purpose I am saying that it is not intended to stiffle debate.
thats the way I see it anyway.

The O'Crap'O'Meter....right on cue.

no orieely.......I just calls um as I sees um........and thats about all we hear about chavez....how great he is and how bad bush is and its all about chavez making an ass of himslef at the un......

and yeah I went a little overboard with it......so what....that should be right at home here......

"I am sure that when Chavez was critcizing bush they loved him...so now let's see the hypocrites on the left defend these comments."

Nothing to defend. If electing morons is good enough for the US it's good enough for Venezuela.

"I am sure that when Chavez was critcizing bush they loved him...so now let's see the hypocrites on the left defend these comments."

Nothing to defend. If electing morons is good enough for the US it's good enough for Venezuela.

and by the way my post of 9:23 was an attempt at a more pleasant debate with you on an issue and I wish I had been more crude with you after reading the moron crack....well go to hell and talk to someone else.

""danni....people tell us here all the time that we are crazy to believe that muslims will be able to change our whole system and invade us and force us to praise allah at the risk of death""

Paranoia strikes deep
into your heart it will creep....
Bushlover...it's ok to come out from under the bed....

America loves democracy unless the voters choose someone we don't like.
Don't they know that democracy means doing things our way???
Do a little research about early U.S. democracy and sedition laws, McCarthyism, etc. and then perhaps look at Venezuela as a developing society.
Funny thing how we deal with Red China as a most favored nation yet they are much less free than Venezuelans.
Selective outrage I'd say....funny how we are usually more outraged by nations that have oil beneath their surface.

tom....I disagree with your post but it was at least had a little levity in it...
HOWEVER...it wasnt funny enough to post twice........yuk yuk

but danni.......isnt china making all sorts of moves as far as capitalism is concerned anyway........and sure china has a ton or human rights things to attack, but there is also no bull about thier leaders being elected freely by the people like you and others do.......



and its always about oil....please...

if it were about oil, then why arent we running the iraqi oil fields and all have 2 dollar gas.........

the next step for this despot will have something to do with the arts since they are famous for giving people hope and hope for freedom......watch for a crackdown on venezlan movies and music and other forms.........
and will the church be far behind?

Coup attempt impossible???
Now with this president. Our military leaders have thought about it I am sure.

""but there is also no bull about thier leaders being elected freely by the people like you and others do.......""

Oh, so now you are claiming Chavez wasn't legitimately elected????

Just make it up as you go along.

China good
Venezuela bad.

In other words....you believe what Fox News tells you to believe.

""the next step for this despot will have something to do with the arts since they are famous for giving people hope and hope for freedom......""

When it happens let me know. Til then it is just more hypothetical nonsense from the right.
What if????
What if????
I hear you guys saying "what if" all the time lately.

DANNI...you might wanna reconsider any thoughts of emigrating to Venezuela. Chavez is already taken up with Cindy, and besides, there are LOTS of Boa Constrictors down there. Big Anacondas too.

Hmm, kicking out dissenting voices! Shutting down television and students (Venezualan citizens) march for free speech. Yet, you express love, love, love for the hero Chavez....interesting. It's just curious to watch the idols you go out of your way to adore.

so danni u are defending these recent actions? yes or no?

' "How long are we going to allow a person -- from any country in the world -- to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?" he said. '


As long as that person follows the laws regarding resident aliens. Unless, of course, everything that person is saying is true. Then you kick him out for speach that is unpopular with the dictatorship.

Read my posts here and find a defense of Chavez. No, I just react to the overreaction of y'all, as if Chavez is synonymous with Stalin or something.
You same righties who worry so much about Chavez defend corporations doing billions of dollars worth of business with China, which is far worse and a dictatorship while, like it or not, Venezuela is a democracy. My take on Venezuela really is the same as the basic philosophy we have towards China, that it is evoving towards a more free and democratic society. Venezuela is in a process of evolution which, if the US doesn't interfere will evolve towards, not away from, a free society like our own. If we, on the other hand, allow our right wing leaders to propagnadize us into intervention or an attempt to isolate Venezuela it will stagnate, as Cuba has, in a less free, less democratic, less economically progressive nation. All I am saying is that we should continue to do business with Venezuela and stop trying to demonize their elected leaders. We can say we don't hate the Venezuelan people but they elected Chavez and it is their decision to choose their leadership not ours.

Well, Danni in that case I have good news for you. The American banks are leaving, and so are the insurance companies. They are following the decisions of the four largest integrated oil companies in the world, who have decided that Chavez is only out to appropriate everything they have. So they're bugging out.

So you should be happy. There will be no legitimate US firms sticking around to interfere in any way with the "evolution" you're celebrating there. And as to the attempt to isolate Venezuela--which you're so concerned about--Chavez seems to be doing pretty well isolating his country, his government, and his people from foreign criticism of any kind. Not to mention foreign capital and investment.

Fortunately, Venezuela has a tiny economy, and not worth much of our time anyhow. And were he not on TV every day telling all the Yanquis to go home, nobody outside Caracas would even know his name.

Question: What does BushCo want to replace Chavez or Castro with?

Answer: With a Crime Syndicate which has branched out into Wall Street using profits from indentured servitude/slavery, gambling, prostitution, illegal drugs, privatized prisons, and wars for the Military Industrial Complex. They depend on religion to maintain Domestic Order. They feign faith while they steal and kill.

Chavez doesn't have to worry RisR, other countries will be happy to take their place. Tiny economy but a huge supply of oil.
Truthfully, don't you really think that the fear Chavez causes is more from the belief that other countries....like Mexico will follow Chavez's lead??
Other countries in S. America are already doing so. We shouldn't worry so much about it, it is a trasitional stage of wealth and property redistribution but then they will reemerge back into the capitalist world if we don't treat them as we did Cuba. What would China be doing right now had Nixon not gone there, had we not begun doing business with them.
Finally, do you think there is more freedom in Venezuela or in China for the average person?

And, just when I thought the thread couldn't get any more silly, Nutcase cometh.

danni, its the other way around. china is moving (slowly) towards democracy through capitalism.

chavez is moving his country away from democracy, through socialism.

chavez is moving his country away from democracy, through socialism.

Posted by Yodar013 at 2007-07-24 10:29 AM | Reply

This is the trouble with the United States. If We don't like how a Country is being ran We somehow think it's Our job to make them more like Ourselves. You know if every swinging dick out there consintrated upon His House instead of worrying about how His Neighbor was doing America wouldn't find Her Proverbial Tit in the wringer. Too much arrogance from the US of A. And then You wonder why we are hated. We can't seem to keep our noses out of other peoples business.

Larry

YODAR, Socialism is an economic system, democracy is a political system.
Bad comparison. Fact is, Venezuela allows election inspectors to verify fairness, etc. I don't believe China even has national elections do they???

""We can't seem to keep our noses out of other peoples business.""

Not true Larry, we can keep out of the business of anyone who lets our corporations make billions on slave labor. WE have a harder time minding our own business when there is oil under the ground.

Not true Larry, we can keep out of the business of anyone who lets our corporations make billions on slave labor. WE have a harder time minding our own business when there is oil under the ground.

Posted by danni at 2007-07-24 10:40 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
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Good Point Danni.

Larry

Oh, and puhleeeeeeeez Righties.....don't EVEN try to pretend that Venezuela's oil doesn't effect our dealings with that nation and the propaganda aimed at Chavez. Please, don't make me laugh at you. Darfur still waits for real assistance but then...no oil.
All over the world there are dictators but no oil..thus no American interest.

Finally, do you think there is more freedom in Venezuela or in China for the average person?

Posted by danni
* * * *

Obviously I wouldn't know. It doesn't seem like there's much of a future for someone in either place who is an outspoken critic of the regime.

That said, I know what direction all the economic signs are pointing to. Even the insular Chinese were able to figure out that economic freedom and openness would generate foreign investment, capital, jobs, and wealth creation. Questions for you, then: as an investor, would you be more willing to invest in China, or in Venezuela? And if you had a young child that you hoped would grow up to enjoy material wealth, health, and prosperity, are your chances for this better in Hong Kong, or in Caracas?

Oh, and puhleeeeeeeez Righties.....don't EVEN try to pretend that Venezuela's oil doesn't effect our dealings with that nation and the propaganda aimed at Chavez.
Posted by danni
* * *

Of course you're right about that. So what? It's not like companies are beating down the doors in Venezuela because they lead the world in engineering. Or banking. Or medicine. Or a thousand other things that would otherwise generate foreign interest.
Venezuela is a player for the same reason Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and other backward nations are: millions of years ago, a whole lot of animals and plants died there. Chavez governs a country with a smaller economy than South Alabama's. Take the oil out of the mix, and his entire country produces less GDP than Palm Beach, Florida--to put it in terms you can relate to.
On the other hand, consider Singapore. Or Japan. Or Israel. Or Monaco. Or countless other places with no natural resources to speak of at all, but with dynamic, liberal Western economies. Where would you rather be?

"YODAR, Socialism is an economic system, democracy is a political system."

Yes, indeed. The political system utilizing socialism is communism. Communism opposes capitalism; while socialism subverts it.

To manage communism has always, historically, required tyranny; e.g., Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Communist Soveit Union, China, N. Korea, Vietnam, Cuba -- none of them democracies, all of them dictatorships.

... and, you will get along if you just follow orders ...

And which on this site is, "Get the hell off our Leftist/Democratic blog, you rightwing war criminals! We support those who hate America!"

Investor: China
Parent: Venezuela

China is developing with economic freedom but not political self-determination. Venezuela is moving towards a socialist system with self-determination through open, transparent elections which China does not have. Point being, if Chavez becomes too oppressive for the people's taste they can elect someone else.
In the US, five corporations control the vast majority of the media and the right sees no problem with that, they can effectively control the message even better than Chavez can in Venezuela. EX...the selling of the invasion of Iraq.
The people who KNEW this would be a disaster were effectively shut out of TV and radio, thus the majority never heard a word they had to say...just as the administration wanted.

thanks tadow... lets try round two of explanations....

danni, russia's transition: first political: communism to democracy, and individual rights(putin is taking it away, but nevertheless, the first transition)
then economical: socialism to capitalism.

china's transition: first economical: socialism to (in a major way) capitalism.
then political (slowly, but inevitably) communism to democracy, and indiviudal rights eventually.

chavez transition- first economical- capitalism to socialism (in a major way)
and now political - democracy to tyranny, and the taking away of individual rights.... which we are now seeing.

entiendes?

Reading the thread, I expected a much more elaborate defense of Chavez from Bill_OReilly. Instead all I saw was a simple "Bush did it too." That's all you've got, O'Reilly? How does pointing out the fact that one of the worst presidents in history, who shits on freedom every chance he gets, has done something similar make Chavez look any better? I expect more from you.

barnett put it best.... china's gov control on their capitalistic expansion (the biggest and fastest ever scene by man) is the equivalent to referees at a basketball game only being able to control the players' language.

when the gov loosens control on the populations economic freedoms, then expansion, growth, competition grow rapidly, and the suppressing of individual freedoms/control becomes much harder to enforce as the market place makes it nearly impossible (read internet etc)

whereas chavez is instilling political control on the people by thwarting any kind of dissent, AFTER having established economic control and brilliantly using that economic control as a means of attaining sainthood (in the eyes of the people.... and people like danni)

capice?

(read internet etc)

Er...China, with the help of Google, is already limiting free access to the internet. Political freedom does not automatically follow economic freedom.
I never cannonized Chavez, and has he cancelled elections or are you just imagining things....more hypothetical...and apparently you didn't read the article....most of the journalists quoted say specifically that Chavez is not shutting down all opposition newspapers, etc. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a nice attack on someone who thinks.

jeeze danni. look at the big picture, not the 3 facts u learned in the subsequent article. put all the facts and big picture transitional qualities together.

political freedom does not automatically follow economic expansion. correct, however the chinese gov is nowhere near able to control every individual citizen. yes google, yahoo is trying to help etc, but it will inevitably fail.... there are countless areas where where chinese gov/political control has failed.

no u didn't cannonize chavez, but you are not critical of his political control because you hold his economic policies in such high regard. did you not see the part where i said they are in a TRANSITION to that stage? so ur two little facts from this one little article aren't exactly the 3 things that are most convincing to me.... again, look at the BIG picture, the transitional qualities.

your attempt at a jab at the end is quite interesting, you claim to 'think' yet you rely on 3 little fact mentioned by one article. Think big picture.

at this one snapshot in time, niether country is a great democracy with the individual freedoms and economic opportunities that we have here. (and don't use that to switch to ur bush bashing please)

what i look at are not the small facts of this one snapshot, but where the countries are headed. where they've gone in the past couple of years, and where we can expect them in the future.

Yodar, I think Venezuela was ripe for a "Chavez" because of decades (centuries) of aristocratic dominance of that country and their ability to retain the vast majority of the wealth while the majority lived in abject poverty. That is a recipe for socialist ideas to become mainstream. Eventually, those ideas do not provide the economic growth desired by the people and reforms come about...especially as long as democracy is retained...which in Venezuela it has.
I grow tired of the ridiculous condemnation of Chavez today after decades of persecution of the average Venezuelan with no protest from America.
To me it definitely seems that much of the outrage against Chavez is the result of propaganda by corporate owned media with a fear of any socialistic agenda taking hold in America. Example...national health care...watch as they spend millions, propagandize unapologetically on TV, etc. to attempt to convince the American people, once again, that they do not want affordable health care.
I just wish people, like you, could reject the propaganda you hear and look at the situation in Venezuela from the perspective of poor Venezuelans instead of rich American corporations. Believe it or not, you have more in common with the poor Venezuelans than you do with rich corporations.

You are following your own particular brand of propaganda Danni. So let's cut to the chase. Real simple do you support the protesting student citizens of Venezuela when they march in the name of free speech? Or, do you support Chavez as he shuts down an opposition television station (that the students march to keep open) and kicks dissenting voices out of the country? Which is it?

By the way, the O'Crap'O'Meter may answer also...but, he won't.

Rideon, your whole post is ridiculous. Why would I take a stand on either thing. I don't live in Venezuela. I take a stand on American demonization of Chavez after decades of ignoring the abuses that created the opportunity for Chavez to come to power. The continued loud opposition coming from the US, including support of a coup against the legally elected government of Venezuela, including calls for the murder of Chavez by a religious leader here strengthens Chavez's control of Venezuela just as it has Castro in Cuba for fifty years.
IMNSHO had we ended the embargo against Cuba thirty years ago Castro would not be in power there today. Nothing reinforces the power of those we dislike more than threats, and demagogery from the US.
I am just tired of the simplistic view of the world that many of y'all prefer over thinking.

danni, not true. i'm rich. but i can guarentee you that in the long run, those socialist ideals will not benefit the people as much as capitalistic ideals with democratic policies. policies such as welfare etc.

do you think the typical russian peasent is beeter off than their american counterpart? we spent decades in a cold war and the result has proven which system works best for the average citizen... i don't know why decades of this proven logic has gone lost on you.

Hey Danni, you don't want to answer. I get it! Just continue to rail on.

danni, ur point with cuba may be valid, however the reason that me and others protest these policies put in place by chavez is because they aren't beneficial for the future of the country... he's thwarting foreign direct investment and discouraging economic growth which will not ever benefit the average citizen.

after those decades of aristocratic dominance, the country needs a leader who will put an emphasis on economic growth and the spreading of wealth through gov programs etc.... not a leader that takes away that economic growth... that kind of agenda will only serve to benefit chavez and his narcacistic control.

YODAR, in the US it is true, in Venezuela and much of S. America, where virtually no middle class existed, they had capitalism for decades with no improvements in living conditions for the average people. They needed a radical change to correct centuries of aristocratic control of resources. With the education of more of the poor, with more money in the pockets of the poor, life will improve and a middle class will develop. Comparing the US to S. America is ridiculous. We were English colonies which made a vast difference in the way our country developed compared to the way S. American countries developed. I have noticed that if you look around the world, wherever Spannish colonies existed, poverty was the norm. Where English colonies existed there was more of a middle class, better educational opportunities, etc.
Sorry, if that sounds socialistic, but really, I don't care, that's what they need in S. America.
I learned a few years back that S. America could be self-sufficient food-wise with land reform because ranching uses so much more land to feed one person than does farming. If the peasants owned farms they could feed the continent but with only the aristocracy owning the vast majority they grow cattle and sell them overseas for cash which does not benefit the vast majority of the population.

""not a leader that takes away that economic growth... that kind of agenda will only serve to benefit chavez and his narcacistic control.""

And the more we threaten, and hate, etc. the harder it will be for the Venezuelan people to realize that.

"""danni, not true. i'm rich. but i can guarentee you that in the long run, those socialist ideals will not benefit the people as much as capitalistic ideals with democratic policies. policies such as welfare etc."""


Yodar,

that only works in a developed country were there are laws and rules, and even that doesn't always protect the lower stratas...just look at your country and how the rich are treated compared to the poor...financially, socially and legally.

In a 3rd world country, capitalism tends to become unbridled and the country which is host to foreign interests hungry for their ressources, get raped. That was the case in Venezuala before Chavez came along and to the great chagrin of the multinationals already there, they now need to deal with the venezualan people on a more equal footing.

I know a person from Venezuela, they keep very little of their money in that country. To them the hand writing is on the wall.... Won't surprise me in the least if they leave in the next 10 years or if possible, even sooner.

incubus,

did s-he support the coup?

INCUBUS here in S. Florida, I know several "exiles" from Venezuela who took their money and left. They know I don't agree with their politics. To me, they illustrate my point, they drain the wealth and deposit it elsewhere where no jobs are created for Venezuelans. That has been going on forever down there and finally someone is doing somehting about it and they, naturally, don't like it but millions of poor Venezuelans do. It's called democracy.
If things ever got that bad here we would do the exact same thing. Do a little research on how popular communism and socialism was getting here in the US before the end of the depression.

""not a leader that takes away that economic growth... that kind of agenda will only serve to benefit chavez and his narcacistic control.""

So, if America really wanted to change things in Venezuela economic opportunities with the US would probably be the fastest and best way to accomplish it.

Much ado about nothing. Every country has the right to deport, expel, or deny entrance to foreigners they don't like. The U.S. has done it on hundreds of occasions. Hasn't anybody here ever heard of "person non grata"?

okay so how about a leader that enfources the rule of law... keeps foreign business but lessons the amount of money going out of the country... continues economic growth through international trade to keep FDI. raise taxes on the rich, creates welfare systems that help bring the classes together etc etc... these things would benefit the country as a whole and eventually the people....

not what chavez is doing.

Yodar, what are you talking about. That is exactly what he is doing.
He is building schools, hospitals, etc. He is exporting oil, using the money to improve the country.

"Every country has the right to deport, expel, or deny entrance to foreigners they don't like"

They certainly do, Bill. The point is that in this case, he's threatening to do so based on criticism of his government. While I agree that he could do a lot worse, you can't deny that it's a restriction on freedom. It also seems like a step toward him demanding the same silence from his own citizens. I'm curious as to how you would feel about that, if it were to happen.

UNITED NATIONS, May 13 -- The United States has ordered the expulsion of 14 Cuban diplomats posted in Washington and at the United Nations on the
grounds they were conducting "activities outside their official capacity," a phrase that is used as diplomatic shorthand for espionage, the Bush administration
announced today...

U.S. officials said the expulsions were based on specific Cuban activities and were not a response to Cuba's opposition to the war against Iraq, [uh huh] or to the arrests of
75 democratic and human rights activists on the island last month.

But there is no question that "Cuba came into the special vision of folks here" after its effort to promote a special U.N. General Assembly session to discuss the Iraq
war, an official said. "The Cubans made a run at a similar effort at the U.N. Commission on Human Rights" last month, the official said. "They were the principal
instigator." Both efforts failed.

"The point is that in this case, he's threatening to do so based on criticism of his government."

So what? Again, the U.S. has actually done that, not just threatened to, numerous times. Emma Goldman was deported for giving speeches the government didn't like.

So what if the US has done that - I wouldn't agree with it then, either. Right now we're talking about Chavez's announcement that he will expel foreigners who criticize his country. Why can't you stay on topic?

Hugo Chavez is seeking to emulate the totalitarian dictatorship of Fidel Castro. He is suppressing all critical speech. He is trying to do away with term limits. He is nationalizing (forcibly renegotiating)major industries. The net result will be economic hardship for the people of Venezuela in the midterm and longterm.
The rightwing assholes on this thread assume that ALL leftwingers support Chavez. We don't. I recognize him for the harmful influence he is. The problem however is that, for now at least, he appears to have the backing of the majority of Venezuelans. I believe that will change IF the ability to protest is not completely stifled before that can can occur. Obviously, that is Chavez' goal.
We should continue to criticize and publicize every totalitarian move this man makes. If not, he will be around for a long time.

And your example of Emma Goldman happened in 1919. Our country is a little different today. If Chavez decided not to let women vote, would you justify that with the America of 1919 as well?

Sure Joe, they'll reach far rather than say one thing negative about their beloved Chavez.

So what? I just gave a much more recent example. Hell, those Cuban diplomats weren't even giving speeches, but just doing their job at the UN. Like I said, this is much ado about nothing. Just an excuse for the hypocritical Right to foam at the mouth. If he was a Rightist threatening to expel a critic there wouldn't be a peep out of them. They've justified a lot worse, including attempted coups.

""We should continue to criticize and publicize every totalitarian move this man makes. If not, he will be around for a long time.""

Sure worked great with Castro.
BTW, what caused more change in China, embargo, criticism, bombastic rhetoric or .... trade???
What was probably the most powerful force that brought down the Soviet Union????
Ronnie Raygun and Star Wars (which still doesn't work)
or Levis, VCRs, Rock n'Roll????

When will you guys ever learn???

Bill, I've asked you questions that you're just ignoring. Please just stop responding at all unless you plan on addressing more than tiny snippets of my posts.

How would you feel if Chavez decided to also punish his own citizens for criticizing their government?

Why do you feel the need to continuously deflect and claim that America practices similar tactics, even though I don't agree with those either, and the only example you can come up with is from almost 100 years ago?

Does one incident from 1919 justify the statement of an apparently over-arching policy by Chavez today?

"If he was a Rightist threatening to expel a critic there wouldn't be a peep out of them."

Do you feel tough when knocking down your big straw Rightists?

Hey RideOn, are you illiterate? Did you read my post? I am as leftwing as anyone on this thread. I, and many other leftists I know, recognize Chavez for the wannabe dictator he is. The fact is however, he was democratically elected. We must continue to criticize and publicize each step this man takes in his attempt to become a tyrant for life. Hopefully the Venezuelan people will catch on and do something about it.
Stop trying to paint all people on the left with the same brush by claiming we all support Chavez. It would be like if I were to say that all Republicans currently approve of the GWB is doing. It is disingenuous.

O'Crap'O'Meter and Danni are so in love with Chavez, don't dare say a negative word about him or his closing of a television station that Venezeluan students protest in support of their free speech or Chavez kicking out critics. NO, NO don't say anything negative about the one they love...CHAVEZ. Forget the student free speech protestors.....gotta love CHAVEZ!

Yodar, I think Venezuela was ripe for a "Chavez" because of decades (centuries) of aristocratic dominance of that country and their ability to retain the vast majority of the wealth while the majority lived in abject poverty. That is a recipe for socialist ideas to become mainstream.

Exactly. The hardcore capitalists need to realize that everytime they push to deregulate an industry, everytime corporations merge or jobs are outsourced, that they push the nation closer to socialism.
Everytime the middle class is squeezed, the nation moves closer to socialism.

As wealth concentrates into fewer and fewer hands, the rich will find themselves outnumbered by the poor. There will be a revolution and a socialist redistribution of wealth. The greed of our CEOs will be their own downfall.

The bottom line is that the multinationals being pushed out of Venezuela have themselves to blame, to a large degree.
If their greed had been less, if they'd paid their workers more, if they'd insisted on investments in Venezuela to build and support the middle class, the country would not have tipped to the socialist Chavez who is now kicking them out.

They had a good run. But they didn't act like farmers, making patient long term investments, cultivating a crop.
They acted like primitive hunters, taking unsustainably.

Danni, the alternatives to criticizing and publicizing the actions of tyrants is either: do nothing or meddle with their internal politics. Which do you advocate? (I already know the answer.)
Oh, and by the way, when Argentina was suffering the most under the dirty war of the Junta in the '70s, citizens throughout that country credited Jimmy Carter for keeping the abuses of that regime in the public eye through ardent public criticism. To this day Jimmy Carter is one of the most respected US presidents in that part of the world, - because he spoke out so forcefully against human rights violations.

""How would you feel if Chavez decided to also punish his own citizens for criticizing their government?""

More hypotheticals.

you guys can pretend I love Chavez all you want but the truth is I just prefer a pragmatic approach to his government instead of the failed policies of the past as in how we dealt with Cuba.
You want to support failure, fine, it obviously does please some voters....as in Cuban exiles....but it hasn't accomplished a thing in what??? 50 years!

""Danni, the alternatives to criticizing and publicizing the actions of tyrants is either: do nothing or meddle with their internal politics.""

That's fair, I pretty much agree but not when our president or other high officials go all the way to demonizing him. Point out the problems but America should also stop being so antagonistic and threatening. Assisting in illegal coups is definitely a counter productive exercise which has the reverse effect from what was desired. If anything, it caused Venezuelans to support him even more. Threats from without almost always have the effect of uniting the people against a common enemy.

NO MODER I don't read your posts. Plus, I never directed any comments to "the left" or anyone else in general. Just to O'Crap'O and Danni, so chill.

RideOn you are such a liar. The majority of your posts are aimed at belittling left wingers and mischaracterizing our positions. The fact that Danni and BillO happen to be your targets on this particular thread do not change the fact. Try not to be so predictable. Give it a rest.

Don't cry too hard MODER8 you may ruin your computer. By the way, I've seen others say they don't read your posts either.....so sorry!

Ride who???

On this thread moder show me where i was addressing anyone other than O'Crap'O and Danni (either by name or immediately after a post of theirs). As Larry would say....do so try again. ROFLMAO

Don't apologize for not reading my posts. Seeing how you seem to misunderstand most everyone's posts on a daily basis, I get the impression you don't read, period. That or your a tool. LOL

Sounds like you are a rabid fan reading my every word. ROFLMAO. Please, don't be obsessed.

Look at all the lefties deflecting to Bush.

""Look at all the lefties deflecting to Bush.""

Look at the person who hasn't read any of the posts on this thread.

Obviously he's read at least some of them.

Joe,

Blow me. You're just a little nitpicking ankle biter. I made my position clear. If you don't like it, tough.

"RideOn you are such a liar. The majority of your posts are aimed at belittling left wingers and mischaracterizing our positions. "

You're absolutely correct, Moder8. Ride_On is just a little troll that couldn't make an actual argument if his life depended on it. Every time Boyd is around he jumps in calling Boyd a Nazi. I just ignore the little prick.

"Blow me. You're just a little nitpicking ankle biter. I made my position clear. If you don't like it, tough."

Translation: I'm incapable of answering your questions without looking foolish, so I'm resorting to obscenities and insults. What a child.

"Ankle biter"?


BillO,

are you channeling Mao?

Fuck off, Mr. Prosecutor. Practice your cross examination "skills" on someone else. I'll respond to whatever post or question that I think is worth responding to. Don't like it, sue me, Mr. LawyerWannabe.

Fuckin' lawyers...

Yeah, Jeff, I'm a little tired of Joe's Perry Mason impression. Answer one question of his, he won't concede the point, but will just find some other thing to nitpick about. This is a blog, not a fuckin' law school classroom.

Got your period today, Billy? Chill the fuck out, pussy.

Oh, you got me Perry Mason. I didn't mean to kill her! I was just so angry...sob...and the knife...it was just sitting there...and...God forgive me!...sob sob sob.

Getting emotional is also a normal part of menstruation, Billy. Just ask one of those 16 year old girls you're so attracted to - they'll tell you all about it.

so I'm resorting to obscenities and insults. What a child.

Posted by JOE at 2007-07-24 02:55 PM |

Yes, you are a child.

Sorry Bill, but Joe gets a FF for his 405 post.

You get what you ask for, Bill. I wanted an honest debate, you gave me nothing but garbage. I'll know better than to waste my time with you in the future.

Good. I'm tired of your ankle biting, dishonest debate style.b

incubus,

did s-he support the coup?

Posted by panchovilla at 2007-07-24 12:28 PM


Nope... they just want to live in peace, and I think they're a giving people who've earned what they have.... Warm climates tend to foster slower paces. The problem being the slow wanting the faster to enable them to slow down even further.

pssst. I don't know where the happy median is any more than anyone else, because we all have varying ideals of "enough", but capitalism seems to sort it out better than any other form I've experienced or read about.

Back to the case in point;

Let's see what Lec W says about Chavez!!!

"LIMA (AP)--The founder of Poland's anti-communist Solidarity movement on Thursday called Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez a demagogue who will eventually have to pay for his populist policies. Lech Walesa, the Nobel Peace Prize laureate and former Polish president, said Chavez is offering Venezuelans things "that don't belong to him." "I consider Chavez a demagogue and a populist, who says one thing and does another," Walesa said at a news conference. Walesa was in Peru to meet with President Alan Garcia and receive an honorary doctorate from the University of Lima.

"There will come a time of truth, and then (Chavez) will have to pay for everything he has done," Walesa said, speaking in Polish through a Spanish translator. Chavez, who has been blessed with high oil prices for most of his eight years in power, insists his socialist policies have improved the lives of poor Venezuelans and typically dismisses his critics as tools of his foes in the U.S. government. The former Polish leader also said Cuba's Fidel Castro must be "forced" to move the country toward greater integration with the world economy. "We all have to force Castro to improve his system ... and that means globalization," he said. In March, Walesa and another former Polish president published an open letter to the people of Cuba encouraging them to persist in seeking democratic change and promising them Polish support. "

Yet still many here campaign for Chavez's "right" to remove free speech. Unbelievable!!!!!!!

It seems many here use Chavez to bash Bush. What do you say about Lech's comments? Cat got your tongues???

Oops, apologies to Shawn Penn for the insult in not listing his name among Bush haters.... well, I might remember more names later.....

Tell me: what's the difference between Bush and Chavez? The only difference I can see is that Chavez was elected.

""Yet still many here campaign for Chavez's "right" to remove free speech. Unbelievable!!!!!!!""

Sure we do. Sure he has.
One thing really true though, in the US, you do have the right to make shit up.

Fuckin' lawyers...

Posted by Bill_OReilly at 2007-07-24 03:23 PM

Easy, I resemble that remark...

Bill, I seem to recall from one of our loooong discussions on the shutdown of the TV stations that your opinion of his actions regarding free speech would be different if he was moving against someone other then "people who supported the coup against him" (or something close to that.)

Since these are foreign critics, how do you feel now?

Also, do you think that Bush should do the same thing for visiting dignitaries from other countries who criticize him?

I've already answered that question, Righto. Every country has a right to deport, expel, or refuse entry to foreigners for any reason. The U.S. has expelled hundreds if not thousands of diplomats and others for purely political reasons. This is much ado about nothing. Furthermore, Chavez has done nothing so far to act upon it. When and if he does, I'll give you my opinion on a case by case basis.

As regards Bush, he has already expelled Cuban diplomats because he was piqued at the Cuban government's opposition to the war in Iraq. They weren't even making public speeches criticizing him, but just doing their jobs at the UN. How come the Right isn't trashing Bush's dictatorial tendencies?

p.s. When I trash lawyers, I'm talking about Joe only. :)

Nice deflection Danni...No answers just make up bullshit heh? You seem especially infatuated with Hugo Danni.

Too funny! Any enemy of Bush is the friend of the Leftist/Democratics!

Well, to be fair, the fringe, all poofed out and swirling like some collective Dervish, spinning constantly in place.

Blatant hypocrites, they have no trouble epitomozing their freedom of speech, while supporting its annihilation by their Leftist/Communist friends. To emphasize that, they wishfully propose scenerios where the freedom of speech would (justifiably in their one mind) present a "coup" sponsored against our nation by Chavez, but cheer at the thought that that freedom would be denied for their Leftist/Communist dictator buddy, they infer is some icon of democracy!

These America haters infest this site! They are gathered by the sites' url, when they originally tried to surf over to the Drudge Report to see the "evil, hateful, neocon, conservative, fascist" news blog. Of course, in ideological agreement with the mockery and vilification this site is created to impart, they stay to spew their hatred and revile anyone who attempts to correct their lies and muckraking calumny!

Right was right again -- so funny, the irony makes you gag ...

Boy Taddy Boy sure worships Dubya and Cheney doesn't He?? I can not believe He thinks 2 men well one Man and One Manchild makes America. Dubya is the WORST Piece of shit to darken the WhiteHouse Yet Taddy Boy supports Him. It is unbelievable to say the very least. Wonder if I became President and I performed as badly as Dubya would He support Me. He would be a damned fool if He did.

Larry

Larry why attack gw? this is a typical deflection, when you have nothing to say about the case in point. I dare you to directly repond to Lech W's comments regarding Hugo Chavez.

it's funny how quickly the dr left can ignore chavez's outrageous behavior, in a rush to bash GW.

Then there's the common thread ie nrom's "
The bottom line is that the multinationals being pushed out of Venezuela have themselves to blame,"

Ahhhh Norm Chavez broke the contract THAT HE PERSONALLY SIGNED, you know the ones in 1999 and 2001 where he said if the was a dispute they'd be settled in a NY court of law. To say exxon and conoco where too greedy is as ignorant as you can get. HE STOLE WHAT WASN'T HIS OR HIS COUNTRIES, which was the oil companies capital investment, oil extraction rigs, and contractual rights

Perhaps you don't care to talk facts but a
I challenge ANY DR LEFT to address lech W's comments.

WHAT'S THE MATTER CAT GOT YOUR TONGUES. F'in American HATERS

"LIMA (AP)--The founder of Poland's anti-communist Solidarity movement on Thursday called Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez a demagogue who will eventually have to pay for his populist policies. Lech Walesa, the Nobel Peace Prize laureate and former Polish president, said Chavez is offering Venezuelans things "that don't belong to him." "I consider Chavez a demagogue and a populist, who says one thing and does another," Walesa said at a news conference. Walesa was in Peru to meet with President Alan Garcia and receive an honorary doctorate from the University of Lima.

"There will come a time of truth, and then (Chavez) will have to pay for everything he has done," Walesa said, speaking in Polish through a Spanish translator. Chavez, who has been blessed with high oil prices for most of his eight years in power, insists his socialist policies have improved the lives of poor Venezuelans and typically dismisses his critics as tools of his foes in the U.S. government. The former Polish leader also said Cuba's Fidel Castro must be "forced" to move the country toward greater integration with the world economy. "We all have to force Castro to improve his system ... and that means globalization," he said. In March, Walesa and another former Polish president published an open letter to the people of Cuba encouraging them to persist in seeking democratic change and promising them Polish support. "

Yet still many here campaign for Chavez's "right" to remove free speech. Unbelievable!!!!!!!

DaveTheWave last time I checked Kansas was in the United States not in Venezuela. I care about the grass in My Backyard I don't worry about someone elses grass in say Wichita or Salina. I take care of My own backYard I expect others to look after theirs. You Dig??

Larry

Dannis lame response

"I wonder how President Bush would react if there was a coup attempt here?
And if it were supported by a nation close by?"


"Do a little research about early U.S. democracy and sedition laws, McCarthyism, etc. and then perhaps look at Venezuela as a developing society."

And here's the best ....", I know several "exiles" from Venezuela who took their money and left. They know I don't agree with their politics."

You say you know better then people from Vz. Classic dr left buffonery. Whenever I cited an example of my friends from Caracas who said Chavez was a THIEF, you all laughed. Now we find Danni doesn't even respect words from her FRIENDS' WHO ACTUALLY KNOW the situation, then you can tell she's reaching WAY BEYOND FACTS, going to her core base of hate for the US

So don't respond Larry, I expected as much...

So don't respond Larry, I expected as much...

Posted by DavetheWave at 2007-07-25 07:10 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Poor guy did You wake up on the wrong side of the bed again?? That must suck. Try drinking some lemonaid it might make You a tad bit sourer. I will pray for You that God might change Your attitudinal problem.

Larry

The Bush administration tried to overthrow Chavez and install a puppet. Everybody knows that. As usual they fucked it up. Everybody knows that too.

Chavez may or may not be a dictatorial tyrant, frankly I don't care that much. That's for the Venezuelan people to sort out not an American administration with an eye on their oil. Do we care what's going on in Paraquay or Uruquay? Of course we don't. They may be as bad as the wingnuts say Chavez is or they may be model democracies. Again that's for Uruquayans and Paraquayans to sort out without any interference.

While we're at it, would someone like to explain the difference between Chavez kicking out foreigners who he thinks will undermine his government and the virtual censorship of Al Jazeera English in the USA? Just asking.

""You say you know better then people from Vz. Classic dr left buffonery.""

I notice that most of the ones I know don't have to work because of the large sums of money they have brought with them from Venezuela. I notice that the majority still in Venezuela elected Chavez and I accept the fact that it is none of America's business. If they don't like the situation down there then they should go try to change it. Instead they come here and whine (just like the Cuban exiles from the sixties) and expect America to go an overthrow Chavez and restore them to their positions of privelege. Can't sympathize with those who so willingly accepted unearned wealth for so long while their fellow Venezuelans remained in poverty. Some of the things they say about the indigenous people of Venezuela convinced me long ago that there is a racist component to this whole situation. The amount of European blood, they think, should determine social status and access to wealth. The same thing holds true in much of Latin America.

"Can't sympathize with those who so willingly accepted unearned wealth for so long while their fellow Venezuelans remained in poverty."

I would have sworn that in another thread, you were accepting an even supportive of providing a small sector of the population with unearned wealth in the form of increased minimum wage. Was I wrong?

"Was I wrong?"

So you begrudge the workers who had their wages increased???
Sad.

His country, his rules.

"So you begrudge the workers who had their wages increased???
Sad."

Their wages didn't increase because they became more valuable to the firm, the increased because the gov forced them to. that's what's sad.

Let me ask you Lefties something: is there anything that Chavez could do, that would require of you to drop your support of him? Shutting down radio stations doesn't do it. Breaking hundreds of contracts with foreign and domestic firms so he can reward his political cronies didn't do it. Giving away free oil to the richest country in the world, while millions of his own citizens are in poverty didn't do it.

Just curious. Your reflexive defense of everything the man does is a little amusing, if not disturbing. Totally unsurprising, though.

""Let me ask you Lefties something: is there anything that Chavez could do, that would require of you to drop your support of him?""

You mistake our unwillingness to demonize him for support for him. We just won't accept simplistic excuses to make him out to be the devil put forth by corporate interests who made billions off of Venezuela's oil. The Venezuelan people elected him, its their country, their oil and the US does not get a say in the matter. Please just don't try to convince us that the fact that both Iraq and Venezuela have oil and both are targets for propaganda is a coincidence.

""that's what's sad.""

I weep.

Questions for you, then: as an investor, would you be more willing to invest in China, or in Venezuela?

Posted by rightisright

Right now both countries offer some excellent investment opportunities. Your rightwing blinders may prevent you from seeing them, but that's not stopping some very smart investors from making a ton of money in both markets.

Oh. Well I'm aware of the opportunities in China, and have invested accordingly. And if anyone outside of the Chavez regime is "making a ton of money" in Venezuela, that fact apparently escapes the folks who run the MCSI.

But I digress. Where are yYOU investing in Venezuela? Or, are you one of the ones that aren't very smart?

You mistake our unwillingness to demonize him for support for him. We just won't accept simplistic excuses to make him out to be the devil

You think that is unfair?? I would be inclined to agree with you Danni except that I have been put in the same position here on the DR about 1,000 times by liberals regarding GWB.

Sucks doesn't it?

Hey Eberly, how many countries has Chavez invaded unnecessarily???
Also, Bush is the president of the United States, I am a citizen of the United States and thus he is my president to criticize. Chavez is president of Venezuela and thus, you can criticize him but we need to be careful not to allow corporate propaganda to convince us he is the "devil" and that Venezuela needs "regime change" which I suspect is the goal of many who demonize him and get so many sheep to follow along.

I have been put in the same position here on the DR about 1,000 times by liberals regarding GWB.

Sucks doesn't it?


People still supporting GWB can only be no longer conservatives but Republican Party partisans driven by an extremist's hatred of people that are identified as communists, socialists, feminazis, traitors etc by those who herd them into flocks. This assumes that they were ever conservatives in the first place and that they once were rational enough to realize that nobody is ever right 100% of the time.

If they support Bush they presumably support his puppetmaster Cheney too. Must be lonely in Fox and Limbaughland these days, they probably compensate by proudly thinking of themselves as 18%ers or some such nonsense.

Reading through the posts on this thread I immediately notice a disconnect. People like RIR, DaveWave and MadBomber all insist that leftwingers on this are supporting Chavez. That is NOT what is being said by people like Danni and BlueInB. They are pointing out that it is up to Venezuelans to determine their form of government and it is appropriate for US to intervene. Rightwingers are purposely misrepresenting (or alternatively are too stupid to understand) the position of leftwing posters on this thread as one of support.
And, for the record, if you look at my 12:55 pm on this thread post you will see that there are hardcore leftwing posters such as myself who have no illusions about Chavez.

* NOT appropriate for US to intervene.

Did you mean to say 38%ers? Or are you just ignorant?

"If they support Bush they presumably support his puppetmaster Cheney too.......they probably compensate by proudly thinking of themselves as 18%ers or some such nonsense."

I thought it was clear that I was talking about Cheney, not his puppet. Last thing I saw was Cheney at 18% but that was some time ago. Got a recent poll on Satan?

Thanks for the Rasmussen link, BTW. I've always thought of them as one of the more valid ones. Frankly, I'm amazed to find Bush at 38%, but there it is. When he first slipped below 40% I just knew that one day he'd slip below 30% too. How could he not? I was less sure he'd ever slip past 20% but a host of recent polls have had him at 28% to 25% so it seemed possible that he might. His sheer bloody awfulness as a President and a human being continues to amaze some of us, though obviously not you.

Hey Eberly, how many countries has Chavez invaded unnecessarily???

Danni, an easier answer would be "yes, it sucks".

Rightwingers are purposely misrepresenting (or alternatively are too stupid to understand) the position of leftwing posters on this thread as one of support.

Sucks doesn't it??

It's his country. Let him throw them out. It's not like he's stoning women to death for showing their face in public like they do in the Saudi Arabia, the place where the Bush's are considered family friends.

I guess the rightists will try to use this as a reason to invade Venezuela.

"We must send more soldiers to die so Exxon/Mobil can have a another record year!!!!" -The right.

You mistake our unwillingness to demonize him for support for him. We just won't accept simplistic excuses to make him out to be the devil

You think that is unfair?? I would be inclined to agree with you Danni except that I have been put in the same position here on the DR about 1,000 times by liberals regarding GWB.

Sucks doesn't it?

Posted by eberly at 2007-07-25 02:25 PM

Blue-

As a protocol officer would tell you, in many Arab countries men will walk hand in hand as a gesture of respect or equality.

That being said, I'm guessing that Bush gave the prince a little extra squeeze before pushing in his stool back at the ranch.

Oh. Well I'm aware of the opportunities in China, and have invested accordingly. And if anyone outside of the Chavez regime is "making a ton of money" in Venezuela, that fact apparently escapes the folks who run the MCSI.

But I digress. Where are yYOU investing in Venezuela? Or, are you one of the ones that aren't very smart?

Posted by rightisright

Gold mines. Check them out. Chavez is making it easy for mining companies to do business there. Smart guy.

". . .but we need to be careful not to allow corporate propaganda to convince us he (Chavez) is the "devil" "

Danni: I have no way of knowing, of course, but knowing your views of Bush and considering your previous postings, it is reasonable to speculate that you cheered Chavez when he called Bush the devil at the UN.

"Smart guy."

Posted by Apocalypto


Gold works so well in fuel cells.

"Gold works so well in fuel cells." Gold works in mysterious ways.

Gold mines. Check them out. Chavez is making it easy for mining companies to do business there. Smart guy.

Posted by Apocalypto
* * *

Gold mines make for lousy investments. But it does serve to illustrate my point. Venezuela is a country dependent upon mineral extraction to survive, and ironically they need Western capital and know-how to even get the stuff out of the ground. And Chavez is scaring all the capital away.

I give him . . . 48 months. 60 max.

I am inclined to agree with Eberly, but Bush makes it easy and so much fun to demonize him.

No question. He makes it very easy.

Gold mines make for lousy investments.
Posted by rightisright

Oh, so you're telling me that doubling your money in 3 months is a bad investment?

In re to Chavez, I'll take your bet. 60 months? He'll still be around in 10 years.

If you mean he's still running the country in 10 years, that would fit his pattern--get elected once or twice, then when popularity fades, suspend further elections. His hero Castro certainly has led the way.

As to your gold mines doubling in 3 months--if it's true, which I doubt, you got lucky. There are only a small handful of companies that mine in Venezuela that trade on the N. American exchanges. Hecla's one--and the only time it ever doubled in 3 months was in early 2002. The other is Crystallex Intl, which never has.

Still, buy your little gold mines. Have fun.