Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, July 10, 2007

Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

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What a fool!

I wonder what the protestant "fake christians" (according to the Pope) will have to say about this.

"Benedict, who attended Vatican II as a young theologian, has long complained about what he considers the erroneous interpretation of the council by liberals, saying it was not a break from the past but rather a renewal of church tradition."

Church TRADITION. In other words, something created and perpetuated by Man, not ordained by God.

This Pope continues to make regulations and pronouncements that will ultimately render the Papacy irrelevant. American Catholics by-and-large go their own way already and give only token lip-service to Rome.

I wonder what the protestant "fake christians" (according to the Pope) will have to say about this.

Posted by taxman

I think all this is just a PR stunt for the Catholics - trying to make sure their base knows what they believe. Since Protestants don't believe the Pope to be the "mouthpiece of God" or whatever anyways, why should they care that he says they're fake? They're Protestants because they protest what the Pope says!

"why should they care that he says they're fake?"

Because the goal of Christians should be to find common ground, not to put up walls and proclaim "my way or the highway".

So, basicly he is saying that an awful lot of folks who considered themselves Christians are in fact burning in hell.
Oh well.

So, basicly he is saying that an awful lot of folks who considered themselves Christians are in fact burning in hell.
Oh well.



Where does he say that? He says:


"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession -- the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles.


What horror! You mean the head of the Church actually believes his church is true in the sense that it represents God's plan for faith.

My God, a man who is the head of a church actually believes that truth exists! How immoral.
Doesn't he realize that people who might not agree with him him might be offended? The Church shouldn't promote what it believes are fundamental truths. It's goal should be never to make anyone feel uncomfortable about anything.

By the way since when does someone disagreeing with you automatically become an offense?

In addition, I am always amazed at people who are indignant that they are not included in some organization that they detest.


Cheers

Danni said: "So, basicly he is saying that an awful lot of folks who considered themselves Christians are in fact burning in hell. Oh well."

Then Grendel said: "Where does he say that?

Did you deliberately ignore the rest of the paragraph you cited?

"...therefore did not have the "means of salvation."

Keep in mind that the "truth" he believes in is mostly made up of rules and regulations created by the men of the early church and are not based in Biblical precedent.

For example, celibacy of the priesthood, that Mary was also conceived immaculately, transubstantiation, to name a few.

How do Protestant biblical literalists get past the whole "upon this rock I will build my church" thingy?

It was John the Baptist, Goddammit, not John the Makelsnapper!

""In addition, I am always amazed at people who are indignant that they are not included in some organization that they detest.""

Indignant???
Hardly. I found the Pope's comments amusing. BTW, I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic schools and was very devout most of my young life.
Then I just decided I didn't believe.
Sorry if I offended you Grendel, I know you are a believer and I don't really want to insult that.
I could probably do without religiously inspired threads.

Great! So while the Shia and Sunni are blowing each other up on the other side of the planet, the Pope is trying to ignite a civil war within Christianity.
Yep, that's going to help world stability all right.

"How do Protestant biblical literalists get past the whole "upon this rock I will build my church" thingy?"

Well I'm certainly not a Biblical literalist, but my opinion is that by the time the 3rd-4th century A.D. rolled around the "Church" bore no resemblance to what Christ and the Apostles envisioned.

With events such as the Council of Nicea and other purely political struggles for control of Christianity and its doctrine (not to mention its wealth) ,it pretty much became a man-made thing existing to create even more wealth and power.

Other Churches: The Pope is a Crossdressing Flamer.

I wonder what the protestant "fake Christians" (according to the Pope) will have to say about this.
Posted by taxman at 2007-07-10 12:04 PM


YEAH!

Jerry Falwell used to say the exact same thing --- except it was the Catholics that were not real "Christians"!
Jerry stated on many occasions that if you weren't "born again" and a tithing member of Thomas Road you were sure to burn in hell!

It made him a fortune not to mention ten feet wide!

How do Protestant biblical literalists get past the whole "upon this rock I will build my church" thingy?

Posted by BobSF_94117 at 2007-07-10 04:05 PM


some believe Peter was the rock he was refering to, not an actual rock.

How do Protestant biblical literalists get past the whole "upon this rock I will build my church" thingy?

Posted by BobSF_94117 at 2007-07-10 04:05 PM

BobSF, Most Protestants believe that 2000 years ago, Jesus said this to mean that Peter would be the next church leader. However, after centuries of what some would call uninspired leadership, Protestants don't feel that the Pope is "the rock" that Jesus's church is built upon anymore. Peter was the rock; not the current day Pope. I don't see any contradiction or problem.

Actually, the Mormons say that the "rock" is revelation which is referred to in the previous verse. So, it is neither Peter nor the Church.

Whoever has revelation is built upon the rock.

KILL DE POPE MON

"I wonder what the protestant "fake christians" (according to the Pope) will have to say about this."

The same shit they always say: That Catholics aren't real Christians.

You think this shit goes one way or something? Buy a clue.

Plenty of Protestants believe it is their obligation to inform any Catholic they meet of the evils of Catholicism. Try moving to the bible belt and telling the locals you're a Catholic.

The Pope's comments were very tame by comparison to what others say about Catholics.

the vast majority of "christians" are either hypocrits or dont understand their own religon

There is pretty good evidence that Jesus was married, and probably had children. Jesus was a Rabbi, and it was the duty of Rabbis to marry and have children. Chances are the church covered up the marriage and importance of Jesus' wife Mary in forming the new belief.

That makes the Catholic church a false religion, but then they are all false religions.

Poor little humans can't live without a fictional Father figure. Extinction cures all mental illnesses. That's evolution---that's progress. Maybe the next "intelligent" species can live with reality.

Let me just repeat:

The goal of all Christians should be to find common ground, not to put up walls and proclaim "my way or the highway".

There are good, moral people of faith in all denominations and all religions. There are also good, moral and spiritual people who subscribe to no organized religion. And there are fakes, charlatans, and opportunists on all sides.

Most people I encounter don't even know the meaning of "catholic." ...Or "protestant" for that matter. Most Christian faiths believe that their particular faith is the one "true" path. At least they haven't declared any jihads yet.

most christians dont understand the basic premise of their religon or its traditions.

eat the lamb baby.

"At least they haven't declared any jihads yet."

If you believe that you've missed out on a great deal of Christian history, up to and including the late 20th Century.

they do know they are right though, just ask em.

"The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession -- the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles -- and therefore their priestly ordinations are not valid, it said."


OOOOHHHH LIKE THIS BISHOP:

www.bishop-accountability.org

We are distraught over Bishop William Lori's decision to keep an admitted molester in active ministry,


well the child he molested WAS at least a girl so we can keep him.

"At least they haven't declared any jihads yet."


google Eric Rudolph, or Christian Militia's

"If you believe that you've missed out on a great deal of Christian history, up to and including the late 20th Century."

Yawwwn...I know about the crusades, inquisition etc. It appears they have evolved some since then. Now if you want to compare any Christian activity in any RECENT century to a f---ing jihad, you'll have to convince me. I haven't seen any Methodist "suicide" bombers, Presbyterians flying planes into buildings or Catholics blowing up trains, have you? The IRA troubles weren't about spreading Catholicism all over the world or killing "infidels." I don't think that the IRA was on a jihad. Whassa matter...some Christian kick your butt or something. Maybe YOU are on a jihad???

The IRA was a nationalist movement. People who claim it has anything to do with religion have no idea what they are babbling.

Just more of the 'patients running the asylum'......or Nazi pedophile running the church.

"google Eric Rudolph, or Christian Militia's"

Eric Rudolph??? A one man "jihad?" LOL...you and your little friends crack me up. Now HERE'S some "jihad." If you find some Baptists doing comparable things, get back to me.

www.matthiaskuentzel.de

www.faithfreedom.org

www.youtube.com

lordoftheflies.org

"Yawwwn"

Ah, the standard reply of the intellectually lazy and uncurious apologist.

In the more or less modern period there were some brief periods where it looked like papal leadership just might be moving out of its medieval deadend: The papacy of John XXIII, the shortlived papacy of John Paul I, and the very early days of John Paul II. Otherwise, irrelevant loser leadership.

Religion = superstition.

The pope is an idiot in a funny hat.

"The IRA was a nationalist movement."

Partially true, but it also had its roots in the centuries old Catholic/Protestant struggle that began with Henry VIII.

It is certainly also true that modern terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda are not about religion at all. Religion is just a guise for political motives.

"The IRA was a nationalist movement. People who claim it has anything to do with religion have no idea what they are babbling"

Right. Religion was involved only from the fact that England passed some very restrictive laws against Catholics back when. They need to go back to Mary Queen of Scotts, read about William of Orange (King Billy.) I bet they don't know why they call protestants "orangemen" in Ireland. They want to compare the "troubles" to a jihad. It just isn't valid.

Christian militia massacres Muslims in Nigeria town

Lagos, Nigeria, May. 5, 2004 (CWNews.com) - About 300 Muslims were killed last Sunday by a Christian militia in Nigeria's central Plateau state, according to Muslim leaders and local authorities. The killings are part of escalating interreligious violence that has taken the lives of at 700 people over the last three months.

www.cwnews.com

Evidence that military figures were involved in the formation of Christian militias in Poso.

www.indonesiamatters.com

"According to authorities in Phenix City, Alabama, a militia group identifying itself as the Christian Retribution Organization of the World (CROW) announced that they had kidnapped a Muslim individual off the streets of Phenix City and were holding him in an undisclosed location pending his forced conversion to Christianity. According to CROW's demands, they wanted all Muslims living in Alabama to profess their loyalty to America by eating pork, and to demonstrate their allegiance to Western Christian culture by singing a chorus of "Onward Christian Soldiers."

againstred.blogspot.com

Jest: I'm glad you find Xian terrorism so funny. At least we know where you're coming from.

"Ah, the standard reply of the intellectually lazy and uncurious apologist."

Wrong on both accounts, buzzard breath. It's BOREDOM. When some fool wants to try to compare the ocassional acts of a lone Christian or some gang like the Klan to a "jihad," I become extremly bored and unimpressed with THAT person's intelligence. Hence the yawwwn.

Partially true, but it also had its roots in the centuries old Catholic/Protestant struggle that began with Henry VIII. It is certainly also true that modern terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda are not about religion at all. Religion is just a guise for political motives.

Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2007-07-10 04:56 PM

That's correct, SARogue, to a point. However, the IRA never blew people up to "convert" them to catholicism and never instituted "Catholic Law" in areas of Ireland they controlled. They didn't hide behind their religion like Al Qaeda does (i.e. "We're doing this because God commanded us...").

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WORLD WAR III ------------------------------
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-------------------- Posted: July 23, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern "We're going to have something in the way of a major nuclear event in this country," Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest man in the world, told stockholders of Berkshire Hathaway Inc. just 11 weeks ago. "It will happen. Whether it will happen in 10 years or 10 minutes, or 50 years ... it's virtually a certainty." What does Warren Buffett, whose major business is insurance, know that you don't know? He probably knows a great deal more than I know. But, because of my position, I'm blessed with intelligence sources. I'm also cursed with them. I don't like to be an alarmist, but withholding information is not in my nature as a newsman. People turn to me for my analysis and my insight into current events. Based on what I know, I believe the next 12 months will be life-changing for many of us. I believe we will see dramatic developments and experience horrors that will make Sept. 11 pale by comparison. You've read and heard a great deal about a likely U.S. attack on Iraq. It is coming. I am not giving away any state secrets here. Saddam Hussein knows it is coming, and he is preparing for it. Shortly, some time in the next year, the U.S. will launch an all-out attack on

Iraq designed to finish the war we should have finished a decade ago. The objective will be to hunt down Saddam Hussein and his inner circle and kill them all, while simultaneously locating and destroying his growing stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. Iraq has nuclear weapons and will be in a position to mass produce them within a year. Iraq has enormous stockpiles of biological weapons, most hidden beneath mosques and palaces. Iraq has chemical weapons. Iraq has delivery systems with a 650-kilometer range and, within two years, will be producing its own inter-continental ballistic missiles with a range of 3,000 kilometers. Iraq has terrorists prepared to bring weapons of mass destruction into major cities in the United States and throughout the West. According to my intelligence sources, Baghdad is waiting for the inevitable U.S. attack to launch its suicide bombers and missiles. When the U.S. attacks, a new fiendish, apocalyptic wave of mass destruction and terrorism will begin. The longer the U.S. waits, the more the threat and Iraq's capabilities increase. The attack on Iraq, when it comes, will be severe. It will involve hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops. It will make Afghanistan look like a tea party by comparison. It will make the Persian Gulf War look like a dress rehearsal. There will be heavy casualties. Iraq will be hit hard. Casualties will be heavy including civilians. There's no way around it. This war will not just involve Iraq and the United States. Iran will be involved. Syria will be involved. Other Muslim states are likely to be involved. International terrorists will be unleashed from all corners of the earth. And this war will also come home, my intelligence sources say. Suicide bombers are already here just waiting for their orders to deploy hand-carried weapons of mass destruction in the United States. Israel and Europe will also be hit hard. Yes, what I am describing sounds like World War III. That's what it will be. Sound like Armageddon? It may well be. As I said, I'm not giving away any state secrets here. The U.S. government is making the necessary plans to fight this war with one exception. It is not preparing to protect Americans from the destructive wrath of the coming attacks. Therefore, it's up to Americans themselves to be as prepared as they can possibly be for the coming holocaust. We're on our own. The government is making plans for the continuity of government. It's up to us to ensure that there is a continuity of America, a continuity of our families, a continuity of life. There are obvious reasons the government is not telling you what I am telling you. It would be devastating to the economy. People might panic. And, as I said, the government can't protect you or won't. Could I be wrong? Could my sources be wrong? I surely hope so. I sincerely and fervently pray they are wrong. But the threat is real. Things could get very ugly real fast..........................
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become extremly bored and unimpressed with THAT person's intelligence. Hence the yawwwn.

Posted by jestgettinalong at 2007-07-10 05:02 PM


you should see what we think of your intelligence......

Whassa matter...some Christian kick your butt or something. Maybe YOU are on a jihad???

In other words: "you have backed me into a corner intellectually and I cannot find a way out so I will simply insult you and call you a terrorist."

Pathetic.

"Peter was the rock; not the current day Pope. I don't see any contradiction or problem."

I guess this makes sense. Afterall, it's not like Jesus could see the future or anything...

(Sorry, can't help but tease.)

It's all silliness, on ALL sides.

According to authorities in Phenix City, Alabama, a militia group identifying itself as the Christian Retribution "Organization of the World (CROW) announced that they had kidnapped a Muslim individual off the streets of Phenix City and were holding him in an undisclosed location pending his forced conversion to Christianity. According to CROW's demands, they wanted all Muslims living in Alabama to profess their loyalty to America by eating pork, and to demonstrate their allegiance to Western Christian culture by singing a chorus of "Onward Christian Soldiers."

How many THOUSANDS of these nuts captured this ONE Muslim??? "Jihad???" I don't think so. Let me know if they behead him, will you?

"you should see what we think of your intelligence......"

You should spend some time trying to figure out how much I give a sh1t what you think about ANYTHING.

You can always phone the Pakistan Army to empty this madressa called "The Vatican".

Satisfaction guaranteed.

"Yawwwn..."

If you had typed: "At least they don't declare any jihads ANYMORE.", you might have a point.

Catholicism, the post-jihadi world religion. Has a certain ring to it.

The Religion Report: 16 January??2002? - Christian Jihad

Since their return to the US, Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer have admitted that they were, in fact, spreading Christianity among their Afghani hosts, and it appears that their efforts were part of a concerted push by American evangelical groups to wage "spiritual warfare" against the unconverted followers of Mohammed - a campaign that has acquired a whole new set of meanings since September 11th.

Deborah Caldwell is the Senior Religion Producer at Belief.net, and she's been documenting this phenomenon for some time. She calls this military-style campaign a "Christian jihad", and from New York she's speaking with David Rutledge.

Deborah Caldwell: I think these groups are all in touch with each other in some way or another, I think the Internet has absolutely accelerated that. There are discussion groups that they can get on to - I mean, I ran across one website in which one man was basically acting like a broker, to help people smuggle The Jesus Film into Muslim countries, and he had set up some kind of network in which to do that, and he was connected with all of these various Christian groups. So, is there some kind of "Command Central"? No, but do they all know each other? Absolutely, yes.

David Rutledge: And Shelter Now estimate that they've distributed Christian material to some 334 million Muslims. Do you credit that claim?

Deborah Caldwell: To be honest with you, the guy I interviewed who gave me that figure was somewhat disappointed that they didn't have more missionaries overseas in Muslims countries, and that they hadn't evangelised more. So I actually think that the figure is probably pretty accurate. When they say "evangelise", the thing to keep in mind is that it's the "carpet-bombing" approach to evangelism. Because they count when they've given out a tract, when they've shared the Jesus story, when they've shown The Jesus Film - and they're relentless about this, so I think it's possible that if they can trek it into somebody's house somewhere out in the middle of nowhere and get a group of villagers to watch it, then they can tally that up as part of their total.

David Rutledge: They're also saying that the number of missionaries in Muslims countries has quadrupled since 1990.

Deborah Caldwell: Exactly. And that's because of a concerted effort; it actually has a millenarian streak to it, aiming at the year 2000. In 1989, a group of people got together and decided that they were going to try to spread the Good News by the year 2000, and they gave themselves this 10-year window in which to do it. And the Southern Baptist Convention got involved in this - that's the largest Protestant group in the United States, with 15 million members - they completely reconfigured their international mission in service of this goal. But I think that towards the end of the 1990s, it got more intense toward Islam and Muslims, because they began to see them more as a political threat.

David Rutledge: I've heard that there are seminary programs in the US devoted to training specifically for ministry to Muslims, is that right?

Deborah Caldwell: That's exactly right; there's a seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, that has such a program. And they try to do two things: they are (they say) training evangelical Christians to "understand" their Muslim neighbours, and in the United States, the number of Muslims is estimated as between 3 million and 8 million. It's definitely a growing group of people, and before September

"Pathetic."

No...I don't think you're pathetic. Pitiful is more befitting. Probably having to study "Heather Has Two Mommies" so much in school has influenced you too much. Shoulda concentrated on history a little more.

"If you had typed: "At least they don't declare any jihads ANYMORE.", you might have a point."

OK...at least they don't declare any jihads anymore.

Jest: another fine example of the teachings of Jesus embodied in the upstanding body of a compassionate conservative.

You should spend some time trying to figure out how much I give a sh1t what you think about ANYTHING.

Posted by jestgettinalong at 2007-07-10 05:06 PM


you must, you keep coming here and trying to convince others of your insane beliefs, either that or you have a serious mental problem.

I love how people who make arguements that clearly don't jive with reality - such as Christianity being used as a justification for terrorism in the present on anywhere near the same level of Islam - claim intellectual superiority. As if believing that fairy tale is any less stupid than the most bizarre religious belief one can find.

Bible thumpers are annoying, passive aggressive busy bodies and if a fraction of what they believe is true, I'm in very deep doo-doo in the afterlife. But that's about as far as it goes. To pretend otherwise is assinine.

The difference between the "Christian Jihad" Briwo posted and the "Muslim Jihad" being discussed is that none of those Christians blew themselves up, killed anyone, chopped off any heads, etc. Yeah, they passed out a bunch of material and talked to a lot of Muslims. If the Muslim Jihad consisted of this, they could knock on my door and pass out pamphlets all day! Unfortunately the current Muslim Jihad deals with forced conversion on a large scale and death to all non believers.

Did you deliberately ignore the rest of the paragraph you cited?

"...therefore did not have the "means of salvation."


I ignore it when the writer of the article merely gives his or her understanding without looking at the real meaning.

The following is from "DOMINUS IESUS" written by Card. Ratzinger.




Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".

For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, "salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit";81 it has a relationship with the Church, which "according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit"


That other Church's do not have the "fullness of salvation" that Catholics may believe is found in Catholicism does not mean that non-Catholics and even non-Christians are necessarily deprived of salvation.


Sorry if I offended you Grendel,

No offense at all. I am not offended when people disagree with me.

No need to apologize. PAX


Cheers

"Pope: Other Christians Not True Churches"

We need another crusade to kill off all the heretics. Burn them! Burn them!

well the child he molested WAS at least a girl so we can keep him.

Posted by truthhurts

salvation at last!



Christian militia massacres Muslims in Nigeria town

Lagos, Nigeria, May. 5, 2004 (CWNews.com) - About 300 Muslims were killed last Sunday by a Christian militia in Nigeria's central Plateau state, according to Muslim leaders and local authorities. The killings are part of escalating interreligious violence that has taken the lives of at 700 people over the last three months.

www.cwnews.com

Evidence that military figures were involved in the formation of Christian militias in Poso.

www.indonesiamatters.com

"According to authorities in Phenix City, Alabama, a militia group identifying itself as the Christian Retribution Organization of the World (CROW) announced that they had kidnapped a Muslim individual off the streets of Phenix City and were holding him in an undisclosed location pending his forced conversion to Christianity. According to CROW's demands, they wanted all Muslims living in Alabama to profess their loyalty to America by eating pork, and to demonstrate their allegiance to Western Christian culture by singing a chorus of "Onward Christian Soldiers."

againstred.blogspot.com


Posted by Zatoichi at 2007-07-10 04:58 PM |


but they can be all be saved by JC if they repent by deathtime...amen:>)

It's amazing to me all the interest in the Pope last couple months. Hey, I met this pope. Meeting this pope was a real thrill. It was just terrific. But right now I'm a little down-- I have what my psychiatrist calls "post-papal depression."

Meeting him was such a high, you know-- though the only thing I didn't like about the tour was all the merchandising. They had, like, Pope T-shirts, Pope buttons, Pope posters, Pope banners, anything you can think of. You know, you can call me anti-materialistic if you want to but I just don't think it's right for somebody to make a T-shirt, put a person's picture on it, and then not to give that person part of the percentage of the profits. If you buy T-shirt like the one with the picture of the Pope on it, it's not just for the T-shirt that you buy it -- it's because the Pope is on it. If you just want a T-shirt, you can go to J. C. Penney's instead of going through all the traffic and security and crowds. But the Pope, from this T-shirt, I'll tell you what he got. He gets absolutely zero $$. It's a real rip-off.

What he njeeds to do is put out an album-- A lot of the Popes have made albums but none of 'em sold very well. Pope Paul VI, he had three albums out. The best seller -- but it was not hardly good seller at all, I don't think it even made the charts -- But my favorite Pope Paul VI album was his second album. Was called "The Second Collection." My favorite Pope album of all, though, was made in 1955 by Pius XII. You know, Pius XII has gotten a lot of bad press. They say he was aristocratic. He thought he was better than everybody else. But, say what you want about him, the man made a very, very good album.

It's amazing to me all the interest in the Pope last couple weeks. People are buyin' these posters that show all of the Popes and people want to know what their names are, what their real names are, when they was livin', when they died, all that stuff.

Now, going along with this Papal mania, I've kind of designed a contest about the Popes. It's called "Find the Popes in the Pizza"... All two hundred and fifty-six Popes, they're in here and and all you gotta do is get a pencil and draw a circle around every place you see a picture of a Pope. so get out your pencils...

The jr. nazi might be the best thing to happen to religion in a long time: his backwards approach flies in the face of jp's conciliatory approach and more liberal interpretation of the scriptures.

These repeated stunts will just make his snake oil even less palatable to the majority and the already empty churches will eventually become architectural oddities.

After reading a number of comments, the best conclusion I came up with.

So what? A true Christian attitude.

These repeated stunts will just make his snake oil even less palatable to the majority and the already empty churches will eventually become architectural oddities

What are you talking about? He'll recruit followers in droves! David Koresh, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Georges-Antoine Kurtz (!) -- its the nutjobs that recruit so well.

He should sign a papal decree to paint all catholic churches in camouflage and start wearing sunglasses and preaching from an elevated chaise lounge. Yippee!!! Eucharistic Kool-Ade for all!!!!

What he needs to do is put out an album--"

Sure, when the last Pope got together with Ringo Starr and George Harrison the resulting "Pope John Paul II, George and Ringo" album not only made him a more popular Pope (Spud's talking papal groupies au go go here) but it also made him a coupla extra bucks to boot.

Win/win sez Spud.

Nice postage, KGB!

Talk about yer Papal Bull, eh?

Be Well.

Most religions promotes intolerance and why i don't like religion. Buddhism is one of the few religions that honestly and truthfully promotes peace and love.

same with the dudes in pennsylvania (name escapes me at the moment), subjected to that attack on the school last year.

Religon is the hubrism of mankind.

It is the epitome of arrogance to think one knows what god wants or intends.

Your brain is not structured to conceive of the construct of the universe.

Seriously, having been through the burn-those-other-people stage more than once, Christianity -- Catholic and otherwise -- could do the world a favor and admit that:

1) No religion is True (or at least any more True than any other) and they're all saddled with a lot of useless and dangerous cultural baggage

2) No religion is worth dying for

3) Anyone calling on their followers to lay down their lives for the faith is a fraud (and that includes many, many preceding popes, bishops, preachers, mullahs, and a even a rabbi or two)

4) Taking any theological texts as literally true is absurd. They can be learned from, but they're no more holy than your car's repair manual

Our only hope as a planet is secular democracy.

Charles Carl Roberts IV

Larry

Okay, I think I get this now. The Catholic who molests children, kills his Great Aunt, and spits on the graves of fallen soldiers will go to heaven so long as he repents and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior, while the Buddhist who quietly goes about doing good for other people ansd never causing anyone any harm is going to Hell? Got it.

The Pope is not a heretic for sure.

And the Pope is not the Bible either.

So why worry about what the Pope says.

Protestant North America and Catholic South America. Now even the South in some areas is getting evangelical and abandoning Roman Catholicism because the latter has religious form but lacks dynamism.

We have heard the Catholic claims for centuries and history has shown that millions of Christians thrive well without Roman Catholicism.

They were preaching that line 60 years ago when i was in grade school. Thought they might have grown up a little since then. The stupid old bastard.

At least they haven't declared any jihads yet.

Better check the KKK's position on RCs, not to mention jews and muslims.

Not too sure being Protestant in Derry or Catholic in Ulster would have been a blessing either.

Your brain is not structured to conceive of the construct of the universe.

Posted by truthhurts at 2007-07-10 06:30 PM


actually I don't believe that is true...

we are children of the universe stardust as it were. Our brains are evolving to deal with the Universe as it exists.

Just don't try and understand the universe all at once! yer head will explode.

What the pope (lower case) is saying sounds vaguely familiar...hmmm let me see...oh yes here it is.

There is No God but God. And I am the way and the truth and the light and no man cometh unto the father but by me.


So you see we silly humans are too stupid so only the pope can hook you up...what utter bullshit

Pancho nailed it...

SNAKE OIL!

What is truth? Let's assume there is one god, though we could assume there are an infinite number of gods too. Imagine 10 billion personal names on a dartboard too far away to read the print. Only one of the them is God's name. Then throw a dart and try to figure out the personality of the person where the dart landed. That's how nutty religion is. It's as if 400 years of accumulated scientific knowledge is for nothing.


Where does he say that? He says:


Actually, that's pretty much what it means. There is a guy, until now he was on the fringes, who professes that anyone who does not observe catholocism will receive God's retribution. I can't remember his name, but he sounds pretty much like what the Pope is saying.


There is pretty good evidence that Jesus was married, and probably had children. Jesus was a Rabbi, and it was the duty of Rabbis to marry and have children. Chances are the church covered up the marriage and importance of Jesus' wife Mary in forming the new belief.


I enjoyed "The DaVinci Code" as well.

It's as if 400 years of accumulated scientific knowledge is for nothing.

Posted by Ray

Especially since Plato wrote of Atlantis sinking 9000 years ago...2500 year ago:>)

The difference between the "Christian Jihad" Briwo posted and the "Muslim Jihad" being discussed is that none of those Christians blew themselves up, killed anyone, chopped off any heads, etc.

I can think of a christian jihad that killed about 6,000,000 non-christians, but it was a state run thing, so maybe it doesn't count.

"Our brains are evolving to deal with the universe as it exists....."

A notice of the more impotant modifications will arrive at your home via registered mail

Tradition states that I have to jump in here and defend the honor of the South.

I grew up in the deep South and I had a good friend who was Roman Catholic and a Yankee to boot.

All the other Protestant guys and I thought he was really cool.

Not because he was a Catholic Yankee, but because he stole the blue light off the top of a police car and made it into a light fixture in his bedroom.

The Pope is defective

All churches are defective

The whole crap is defective

Big deal

Nazi pedophile....obviously you are not able to carry on a real conversation. What accusations have been leveled against the Holy Father with regards to sexual impropriety? I would suggest if you can't formulate a credible argument, that you might want to refrain from spewing such sewage form your pie whole

What a sad little person you are.

"Your brain is not structured to conceive of the construct of the universe...."

Makes one wonder why there's science, doesn't it?

Like Samuel Clemmons once said..

"You go to heaven for the climate and Hell for the company"

Allow me to take exception with your posting...the goal of Christianity is NOT to find common ground but to spread what Christianity regards as "the Objective Truth". Maybe you should attempt to understand that with which you disagree before you attempt to formulate such an poorly informed opinion....that way you won't look so silly.

You have "expanded" your mind so much that you have lost your ability to reason. YOU are the one believing a fiction author over God Himself....THAT'S PATHETIC.

Well, within the same twenty-four hours I've been told religion is useless because we can discover all there is to know about the universe and useless because that's something quite impossible to do.

Eventually, some overweight, hard-drinking, superficially read media personality will write a best-selling book sarcastically debunking science for it's contradictions.

When the Catholic Church BANS Priests from molesting children-and SEVERELY punishes them for doing so-I'll take some of their "beliefs" a little more seriously.
Until they do-I'll consider them as I always have.
A guy in a funny hat-tryin' ta molest my kid-telling me how to live my life-with his hand in my wallet-demanding full unfettered access to my bank account.

It ain't gonna happen. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday-it's been a few years now.

I just gotta ask: Where did the "Nazi pedophile" bit come from?

The "Nazis" bit seems derived from the fact that the current Pope, when a young German schoolboy, was required like everyone else his age to spend half of each day manning local anti-aircraft defenses during the war.

Zed-
Sorry. I get the allusions to both Nazis and pedophiles. I was wondering who on this thread first used the phrase. My bad...it was a poorly worded comment.

BB usually goes with that theme...


this 9 minute video sent here today by someone in another retort elsewhere is pretty interesting, too...but it is not about this particular Pope:>(


MySpaceTV: Bush-Nazi Crime Family History (9 mins) by Black Krishna

vids.myspace.com

Pope is an idiot in a funny hat.

Just filling in for, and agreeing with, Zatoichi.

His Holiness better pipe down with this nonsense or else he is going to end up tasting the treads of the tires on his Popemobile.

Signed,
Laura Bush

When is everybody going to realize that religion is man made? The creator of the universe if one exists shouldn't have to pit one side against the other in order to achieve his aims. Believing doesn't make something true no matter what those in authority claim and telling people what they should believe doesn't make it true either.

"why should they care that he says they're fake?"

Because the goal of Christians should be to find common ground, not to put up walls and proclaim "my way or the highway".

Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2007-07-10 12:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

Actually, the goal of Christians is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

Proclaim the Gospel and, as the adage states, "let the chips fall where they may."

The Church shouldn't promote what it believes are fundamental truths. It's goal should be never to make anyone feel uncomfortable about anything.

By the way since when does someone disagreeing with you automatically become an offense?

In addition, I am always amazed at people who are indignant that they are not included in some organization that they detest.

There is no such thing as certainty or absolute truth to the post modernist. Why do you think there is such a push for multi-cultural diversity and political correctness in our time?

Cheers

Posted by Grendel at 2007-07-10 01:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Actually, the goal of Christians is to glorify God..."

And you believe that declaring your beliefs to be the only correct ones, and finding ways to exclude others from the grace of God somehow glorifies God?

"Beleiving doesn't make something true...."

Entirely right. When you understand Christians don't do this any more than materialists everyone will get along a lot better.

Special thanks to Chris Hitchens and "God Is Not Great", which is such a load of crap it may itself deliver a blow from which atheism will not recover.

"Your brain is not structured to conceive of the construct of the universe...."

Makes one wonder why there's science, doesn't it?

Posted by Zed



science explains how the universe functions, it does not explain the reason for the universe, that is beyond man's ability to comprehend or are you saying that some speicies on a small rock on the edge of a small galaxy amoungst the INFINITY that is the universe is actually the center of the universe.

You have "expanded" your mind so much that you have lost your ability to reason. YOU are the one believing a fiction author over God Himself....THAT'S PATHETIC.

Posted by cis290


God himself, as written by man, thanks for the clarification.

"Actually, the goal of Christians is to glorify God..."

And you believe that declaring your beliefs to be the only correct ones, and finding ways to exclude others from the grace of God somehow glorifies God?

Posted by SanAntonioRogue



yes because god created us in his image and put us in a place with all sorts of temptations and if we dont recognize the one true way and eat only the right foods on the right days and speak only the proper words and not indulge in those nasty desires that somehow got into us we will burn for eternity in a pit of fire and brimstone.

and remember, god loves us.

thanks, god, for creating me.

wait dont you know everything?> so you know if I am to burn in hell?

so you created me anyway to burn in hell for eternity?

man you are asadistic son of a bitch!

No, we're not the center of the universe. But we're also taught by very best authority we're far from contemptible.

Quite correct science doesn't explain the reason for the universe, nor could it.

But some have concluded there are no reasons, negating both the need for science and religion.

"Proclaim the Gospel and, as the adage states, 'let the chips fall where they may.'"

Of course its always interesting to read up a bit on the early church, and particularly the Nicene Council to learn about the political infighting, the power struggles, and the back-room deals that decided just what Gospel should be proclaimed.

as soon as the left wing socialists democratic liberals get on a site and blast away at muslims for believeing allah is the only true God and others are not true whatevers, then we can talk.
but we cant do anything to insult them though, can we......ah but the pope and the christian church.......well.....fire away boys.

oops...meant to add......and thats okay. if our belief is so shallow that it would be hurt by comments from some people here, then our faith wasnt that strong to begin with...........so again...fire away boys.

No, we're not the center of the universe.

TH: that is what religon says, that man is different special, unique. given the infinitely smallness of our know world compared to the universe, that seems disingenous.

But we're also taught by very best authority we're far from contemptible.

TH:we are animals no more no less, we have developed a more sophisticated concisousness. and some of us are quite contemptible, I give you Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Rob the Ahole as examples.

Quite correct science doesn't explain the reason for the universe, nor could it.

But some have concluded there are no reasons, negating both the need for science and religion.

TH: again reasons are beyond our comprehension because we are partof the design. we cannot exclude ourselves from the evaluation, wecannot become objective nor can we observe from outside, nor can we begin to fathom the limits of the construct. To think we have some capacity to understand beyond that is hubris. To think that 2000 years ago god came to life is, well, honestly childish.

If it were some universal truth it would actually be consistent with the measurable universe wouldnt you agree? or at least be internally consistent.

as soon as the left wing socialists democratic liberals get on a site and blast away at muslims for believeing allah is the only true God and others are not true whatevers, then we can talk.
but we cant do anything to insult them though, can we......ah but the pope and the christian church.......well.....fire away boys.


Posted by bushlovertwo a



try and keep up bullshitlover 29%. We are on a POPE blog. And most of us have commented that ALL religon is bunk.

Church TRADITION

1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying,

2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

4 For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and your mother';[a] and, He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'[b]

5 But you say, Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--

6 then he need not honor his father or mother.'[c] Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition.

7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 These people draw near to Me with their mouth,

And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'


"Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition"

The literal is: "You make void the Word of God with your traditions."

People tend will prefer their more comfortable rationalized traditions to the original teachings, no matter the subject.

"People will tend to"

My dear Truth---"Religion" teaches Man is the center of the universe? Funny that never comes up in my church.

Sure we're animals. We're also told we're special enough to be worthy of love. I guess that's an idea you either accept or do not.

I think you just made an argument objectivity is impossible in human terms. Therefore, if there is Truth, only God is in a position to know or express it.

As for the rest of your argument, if "measurement" itself is open to doubt, which is what you argue, then why would it be important for anything to agree with it all the time?

Your position is inconsistent. Either state you can come to some existential conclusion about reality or just leave the subject of God alone.

My dear Truth---"Religion" teaches Man is the center of the universe? Funny that never comes up in my church.

TH: you need to read between the lines. Something to do with the whole soul thing.

Sure we're animals. We're also told we're special enough to be worthy of love. I guess that's an idea you either accept or do not.


TH: fair enough, of course what is love, but that is a discussion for another time.

I think you just made an argument objectivity is impossible in human terms. Therefore, if there is Truth, only God is in a position to know or express it.


TH: Correct. Now answer then how mankind could understand god's truth? and please refrain from refering to man's decidedly incorrect expressions like the bible the talmud the koran, etc.

At least the Pope gets a funny hat.

I'm afraid I've lost you. I think we both have souls. That makes us valuable, for sure. Are you arguing against worth?

Love is the complement of thought. Without love, there is no value, rendering the exercise of thought pointless.

I actually agree with you: Man cannot really understand God or the Universe---In this life. The next one may be entirely different.

As for the rest of your argument, if "measurement" itself is open to doubt, which is what you argue, then why would it be important for anything to agree with it all the time?

TH:because each person must examine life and "truth" for themselves, not take the lazy route and unthinkingly follow the words of man as truth, ie following the bible literally.


Your position is inconsistent. Either state you can come to some existential conclusion about reality or just leave the subject of God alone


TH:Because I believe the concept of god etc. is a manifestation of tribal identity that divides the world and creates and causes both micro problems ranging from genital mutilation to suicide bombers to macro problems of wars and genocide. mankind should evolve past the need for religon, to use measurable moral values as the basis for cultural mores, (ie abusing children is wrong, killing is wrong) and live by those. Not use 2000 year old text to justify insanity. As a result you have Aids rampant in Africa and the argument that somehow condoms are worse than AIDS.

"Each person must examine life and truth for themselves...."

And never expect or accept any help.

I'm afraid I've lost you. I think we both have souls. That makes us valuable, for sure. Are you arguing against worth?


TH: souls is open to debate. what is a soul? If it is self awareness, well yes. If it is something beyond that, that lives on, well bad news for you. I am not arguing against worth, just the notion that there is something beyond this world. This world is infinte, therefore nothing beyond it.

Love is the complement of thought. Without love, there is no value, rendering the exercise of thought pointless.

TH: what is love but a chemical reaction in one's body? An attraction or a bonding to something beyond oneself, yes. but nothing more than the chemicals within our body. complex, yes, but nothing more.

I actually agree with you: Man cannot really understand God or the Universe---In this life. The next one may be entirely different.

TH: there is no next life. you die, that is it.

Posted by Zed at

"Killing is wrong...."

You already lost your Brave New World. The guy next to you, just as intelligent, educated, and rational, thinks killing is OK by him.

He'll be glad explain it to you.

"Each person must examine life and truth for themselves...."

And never expect or accept any help.

Posted by Zed



help is fine, wonderful, should be encouraged, one of the great things in life is communicating and feeling the fleeting connections with others.

To think that 2000 year old text written by man is some kind of truth, is well childish, perhaps some of the lessons therein are useful and appropriate, (treat others as one would like to be treated, etc), however, god did not come to life in human form.

TH: there is no next life. you die, that is it.

that's a bold statement. do you have any proof?

"Killing is wrong...."

You already lost your Brave New World. The guy next to you, just as intelligent, educated, and rational, thinks killing is OK by him.

He'll be glad explain it to you.

Posted by Zed


I am not an anarchist (or the antichrist! :O)). I do believe in collective mores, I just dont think religon is the beginning or end to them and in many ways gets in the way of establishing true national morals.

It is immoral for children's genitals to be mutilated but is done on a regular basis for religous reasons.

TH: there is no next life. you die, that is it.

that's a bold statement. do you have any proof?

Posted by handsome_rob



do you have any proof otherwise? if not we have to accept the measurable.

the universe is infinite, are you stating that you believe our consciousness moves from here on earth to the flaflaflooey galaxy?

when you die that is.

do you have any proof otherwise? if not we have to accept the measurable.

the onus isn't on me. i didn't make a statement one way or the other.

well then I will rely on the facts, you die, you no longer have consciousness, would you concur with that? My theory is that nothing remains. The factual basis is that consciousness is a function of chemical/electrical processes within the body of the individual. Once those processes cease the consciousness ceases. Those chemicals/electrical processes do not "magically" go somewhere else. to do that would require extra terrestial(for lack of the proper word)processes. SInce the universe is infinite, those processes could not exist outside of that universe and therefor by definition cannot be extra terrestial.

In other words something cannot exist without being within the existing world and therefore consistent with the processes of the universe.

and I would say that the onus is in those who believe in life after death, because no evidence nor rational perception makes it even feasible.

Fantastic claims demand fantastic evidence. As to needing religion for a moral compass just doesn't hold water. Hammurabis code which existed a thousand years before Jesus is echoed in much of the bible. As a matter of fact outside of the bible there is no evidence that Jesus actually existed. Look at a Brittanica and see if you can find any "first hand" evidence of Jesus existing outside of Biblical reference. "First hand" means evidence at the time in question. If you want to read about real people like Jesus who actually lived try these two:
www.infidels.org

www.themystica.com

forget about the universe for a second. if the universe is infinite, then every possibility is 100% probable. therefore the possibility of the universe being finite is 100% probable, therefore the universe is not infinite. we could go round and round with this. it's circular logic and will get us nowhere.

i agree, there's no evidence of life after death (or at least no scientific evidence). but we may never really know, will we? i believe with all my heart that the sun will come up tomorrow, because all the evidence points towards the likelihood of the sun coming up tomorrow. but i don't really know if it will come up, and i won't know until it does.

The country was created by those who sought to leave the tyrany of Catholic Pope. His word has no power here except on the uneducated and ignorant. His religion has killed more people in the name of his go than another other religion in recorded history.

"As a matter of fact outside of the bible there is no evidence that Jesus actually existed."

Actually the Jewish historian Josephus did refer to Jesus in his "Antiquities of the Jews" in 93 A.D.

There is some dispute over what he actually said and it appears that some translations were "Christianized" to support Jesus' divinity. The following is a translation from an Arabic source that many believe to be a more accurate translation.

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders"

Although scholars disagree on exactly what Josephus said, they all agree he did refer to Jesus.

"The country was created by those who sought to leave the tyrany of Catholic Pope."

WOW... If you ever sat through Western Civilization 101, you surely failed it. The original pilgrims came here to escape Puritanism, not Catholicism. In fact some of the Catholic pilgrims named a colony after the last Catholic Queen. Look it up, learn something. I guess now you want to tell us that all the Catholic Italians and Irish came here to escape the pope? LOL...all those teachers' salaries wasted on you, tsk,tsk.

"His religion has killed more people in the name of his go than another other religion in recorded history."

Wrong again, buzzard breath. Here's a little REAL history for ya.' I'm not promoting Cathilicism, just attempting to correct some of your convoluted history. Read up and then come back.

www.barkati.net

"His word has no power here except on the uneducated and ignorant"

Again, no Catholic apologist here, but there are about 70,000,000+ Catholics in the U.S., about 25-26% of the population. So his word has SOME power here.

"The original pilgrims came here to escape Puritanism, not Catholicism."

Oops...shoulda said the original pilgims came hear to PRACTICE Puritanism and escape the Church of England which was the "national" church.

Again, no Catholic apologist here, but there are about 70,000,000+ Catholics in the U.S., about 25-26% of the population. So his word has SOME power here.

To many Catholics the Pope is more of a crazy uncle that from time to time comes down the stairs from his second floor padded bedroom donning his Teddy Roosevelt San Juan Hill uniform-- amusing to see and hear evey now and then, but still, a loon.


CHAAAARRRGGGE!!!!!!!!

"Again, no Catholic apologist here, but there are about 70,000,000+ Catholics in the U.S., about 25-26% of the population. So his word has SOME power here."

Now you'll have him shaking in his boots. I wonder if he knows the religion followed by those 12-20 million Hispanic illegal immigrants in the country???

"To many Catholics the Pope is more of a crazy uncle"

FF for KG. I love that image.

You're right, American Catholics are more independent from Rome than a lot of others. However, for Harrier to claim that the Pope has 0 power or influence here, or that all of those 70,000,000 people are ignorant or uneducated is ludicrous.

Again, no Catholic apologist here, but there are about 70,000,000+ Catholics in the U.S., about 25-26% of the population. So his word has SOME power here.

To many Catholics the Pope is more of a crazy uncle that from time to time comes down the stairs from his second floor padded bedroom donning his Teddy Roosevelt San Juan Hill uniform-- amusing to see and hear evey now and then, but still, a loon.


CHAAAARRRGGGE!!!!!!!!

Posted by k_g_beekeeper at

ok, so american catholics arent really catholic.

"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. "

they are required to say it every sunday.

so either they lie or are hypocrits.

you dont get to pick and choose what you will follow.

ok, so american catholics arent really catholic.
"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. "
they are required to say it every sunday.
so either they lie or are hypocrits.
you dont get to pick and choose what you will follow.


Ah, the ol' profession of faith-- yeah, and all the Catholics who say "Dear lord I's sorry for my sins and choosing to sin and failing to do good-- I have sinned against you's and your church-- I firmly intend with the help of yer son (the long-haired guy) to axe forgiveness fer my sins and to love as I should." mean it too. Yup. Uh-huh.

And PS they aren't required to say it if they don't go to church in the first place-- or they only go to sup on tasteless styrofoam bread-discs and watered down Ernest-&-Julio.

Aw, shucks...Pope Benny is just pining for the good old days when the church made oodles of lucre selling you get-out-of-hell-free certificates, you know...before Luther came along and ruined everything.

the one true religion is the one you believe in, that has always been true ever since man invented religion to avoid the ultimate death. I don't want to die, I can live forever if I follow the _________ (put Lord, Jesus, whatever)

you dont get to pick and choose what you will follow.

Hell yes we do! Why do you think there are no longer catholic families with 19 kids?

Have you ever heard the term "Cafeteria Catholics"? It wasn't created because the meals after mass were to die for....

well that would mean they arent practicing catholicism now wouldnt it.

pope benny is der leader, if you a catholic that is. If you choose not to follow what he says you are either a. not a catholic or b. a hypocrite/sinner.

you dont get to pick and choose what you will follow.

Hell yes we do! Why do you think there are no longer catholic families with 19 kids?


Of course you do. It is called free will. The question is whether you recognize yourself as outside of Church teaching on the subject. By the way only in a few instances does being outside of the church teaching automatically invokes a kind of excommunication. Even then, it requires a person to confess their sin in order to return.

The Church is not a college of saints but a school for sinners.

Saint Augstine

(By the way the above quote also applies to the ecclesia.)

Cheers

Hell yes we do! Why do you think there are no longer catholic families with 19 kids?



many many many people are sinning, but lets not let a little hypocrisy get in the way, they do go to church and act saintly for an hour or so, well except for the pedophile priests eyeing up the alter boys and the lustful men checkig out the hot chicks in their sunday best.

well that would mean they arent practicing catholicism now wouldnt it.

Emphasis should be on the word "practice" and all that the word implies--the desire to improve an action not the achievement of its perfection.


Cheers

free will, yet I am born with sin,

consistency man consistency.

Emphasis should be on the word "practice" and all that the word implies--the desire to improve an action not the achievement of its perfection.


Cheers

Posted by Grendel





soooooo one can still BE a catholic even though one does not believe in the basic tenets of said religon.

must be nice.

Crazy Uncle Benny dressed up as Teddy Roosevelt?

CHAAAARGE!

That visual completely works fer Spud.

Thanx KG Beekeper.

BLT sed...

"as soon as the left wing socialists democratic liberals get on a site and blast away at muslims for believeing allah is the only true God and others are not true whatevers, then we can talk."

Any religion that claims to hold the patent on eternity is to be looked upon with suspicion.

Islam and RC Christianity are both exclusionary philosophies and both have long and sordid histories of violence.

This idea that liberals are more intolerant of Christianity's intolerance than that found in the Muslim world is laughable.

In fact, Spud finds in the RT mentality a similar typa thinking. The GOPhers have for so long considered themselves the One True Party of God in the US they kinda remind Spud of Benny here.

The typa thinking Benny has used here is the same type the Church has used to justify forced conversions in the past. This non-ecumenical approach is unneccessarily divisive.

All that sed, there still exists in modern Islam, the notion that forced conversion is an acceptable tactic to employ, amongst the most extremist radicalised clergy.

Both approaches are wrong, it's just a matter of degree.

Be Well.

PS: This is a great thread.

Islam is roughly 1300 years old, give or take. When the RC Church was the same age, it's philosophy was fairly close to where Islam is now. Religions love to frighten and oppress.

and this is how The Empire Strikes Back...

This is funny.

Growing up in evangelical Christianity I heard over and over again that Catholics were all going to hell.

Islam is roughly 1300 years old, give or take. When the RC Church was the same age, it's philosophy was fairly close to where Islam is now. Religions love to frighten and oppress.

Posted by Lee_Atwater



Fair enough, to a point.

A couple of things to consider though:


1.Society as a whole has progressed in terms of human value since the point in our history when Catholicism was only 1300 years old. Catholicism was 1300 years old during a completely different era, so I don't think it's unrealistic to expect Islam to be further along than the RC was given that we are now living in the information age.


2. According to Islam, the Koran IS the word of Allah, written through Muhammed. This means that it's to be interpretted in a very strict, literal sense. The Catholic bible was inspired by God, but written by man. Thus, plenty of room is allowed for interpretation of scripture. Islam has a much more difficulty modernizing due to this fundamental difference.





2. According to Islam, the Koran IS the word of Allah, written through Muhammed. This means that it's to be interpretted in a very strict, literal sense. The Catholic bible was inspired by God, but written by man. Thus, plenty of room is allowed for interpretation of scripture. Islam has a much more difficulty modernizing due to this fundamental difference.


Posted by JeffJ at 2007-07-11 02:36 PM | Reply

This is incorrect. The Catholic Church believes the Bible to be the actual word of the Lord Himself. Why does the Priest Declare during mass that after He reads a Passage in the Bible He states The Word of The Lord And the Parishoners State afterwards Praise be to You oh Lord.

Larry

Larry,

I believe you are mistaken.


I went to a Catholic High School and was taught that the Bible CAN'T be interpretted literally. Numerous reasons were cited, among them being that it was written by men, who incorporate their own writing style, story-telling, etc. In fact, that was one of the primary reasons for the importance of the Church as an institution - if the Bible were the literal word of God, we wouldn't have much need for the actual church - just read the bible.

I am a bit rusty on this stuff though. Maybe we'll get lucky and Grendel will see these posts and expound for us.

I think the Catholic Church pretty much views the Bible as the literal Word of God without much wiggle room...

"In encouraging us not to neglect reading the Old Testament as well as the New, Vatican Council states that 'God, the inspirer and author of both testaments, wisely arranged that the New Testament be hidden in the Old, and the Old be made manifest (clear) in the New...The books of the Old Testament ..show their full meaning in the New Testament .. and shed light on it and explain it.'" Decree on Divine Revelation, Section 16

"The books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching firmly, faithfully, and without error, that truth which God wanted put into the sacred writings for the sake of our salvation." Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Section 11

Key phrase is "God the inspirer and author" and "without error".

"and without error"

Well, they'd better settle the issues about bats being birds, hares chewing their cud, and the moon being a light first.

when christians are asked "what job will you have in heaven", they become confused, don't know what to answer.

when you ask a muslim he says "I get to satisfy 72 virgins?". when you tell him the soul has no peepee, he goes berserk

"Well, they'd better settle the issues about bats being birds, hares chewing their cud, and the moon being a light first."

Those pesky parts about slavery, multiple wives, stoning wayward children to death, not to mention 2 different versions of the creation story, are a bit problematic too.

the biggest laugh i get is which version of the bible is the correct one.

ahhh to be a scholar of rhethoric,

The biblical books were chosen from among many such texts at Nicea by a vote of men.
There was some editing later, also by men.
Deal with it.

And Hitchens is absolutely right when he asserts that the Koran is Borrowed from the Bible. Mohammad was illiterate. He told his stories (Hallucinations? Bullshit like Constantine's? Whatever, it worked.) to people schooled in the Bible, and little else.

"The biblical books were chosen from among many such texts at Nicea by a vote of men."

If you read up a bit on the Nicene Council you'll find it was a whole lot more than a "vote of men". It was a knock down, drag out battle for supremacy in the early Church. Back room deals, threats, lobbying, bribery... not that much different than today.

And not likely sanctioned by God, either.

just another example of the hogwash that is religon.

trust yourself

just another example of the hogwash that is religon.

trust yourself

"If you read up a bit on the Nicene Council you'll find it was a whole lot more than a "vote of men"."

Well duh.

And the later changes were a bit more than "editing", too.

Then we have the Medici Popes.

I've been getting my PBS watching in lately.

www.pbs.org

www.pbs.org

Truth-

If the universe is infinite then each of us can actually be in the center! Hence, the feeling that we are the center of our universe is valid for each of us. In an infinite Universe you are in the center no matter where you are...

In fact, WE are of the universe. We have been created by the universe and we are unique in that we seek to understand ourselves and the Universe that created us. Hence the feeling that we were created in God's image. Of course, much hinges upon the definition of God! And so the battle is joined. Who will get to define God and thus control mens minds.


If your brain cannot comprehend the vastness of space and time it is because you have constrained it by shackling it with Religion.

Wake up the Matrix has you!

In other words if you continue to believe that the only explanation is that God did it then that is all your brain can comprehend.

good luck with that!

But if you open your mind and train it (hmm read study and learn) you can come to understand the beauty of the Universe and your place in it.

Or you can puss out and submit to your Overlord the Pope who claims to have the only truth and say...

God did it and it is good...

Welcome to Earth, young man. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, Joe, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of: Goddamn it, Joe, you've got to be kind!

Kurt Vonnegut

We have been created by the universe and we are unique in that we seek to understand ourselves and the Universe that created us.


we are not so unique.

"If you read up a bit on the Nicene Council you'll find it was a whole lot more than a 'vote of men'."

Didn't mean that as a slam Zat. Just pointing out that what some now call "God's unerring Word" is the product of who had the best lobbying effort back then.

I think some people would like to think that these great theologists and holy men gathered in a room and prayed quietly until God revealed which texts were His special books.

Then we have the Medici Popes

Yup, they're a giggle.

Bless PBS and a pox on the House of Fox!

And let's not fergit Spud's second favorite Pope

en.wikipedia.org

The First Pregnant Pope.

Spud still hasn't figured out why Hollywood comedy writer haven't come up with a good script fer this.

Seems a natural.

Be Well.

PS: Council of Nicea?

Still wasn't as messy as the Council of Niceville, wherein Nicey cut up several bibles with an exacto knife and pasted them on every square inch of wall on his house in wot he referred to as "the proper order". Took three days in total and a coupla gallons of Mad Dog 20/20 before Nicey finally croaked "It is done" and passed out.

Kinda sad really.

Wot started as a simple Paste addiction as a child has become an all consuming madness by now.

"a simple Paste addiction as a child"

Sheer literary (something) flag

ROFL MAO

revistes.upc.es

Didn't mean that as a slam Zat.

I know.
My point was that much detail spoiled my carefully crafted understatement.

"Nicey cut up several bibles with an exacto knife and pasted them on every square inch of wall on his house in wot he referred to as 'the proper order'"

Wouldn't have taken so long, but he was penciling in corrections to the text as he went along.

"My point was that much detail spoiled my carefully crafted understatement."

Now you know that subtlety doesn't work with the great unwashed of the DR, Zat.

ROFL MAO

Ta fer that.

Sometimes, these days, Spud is refer to Pinch "to grow an Inch" Mao as "LMao" cos it's just that hard to take him seriously, these days.

carefully crafted understatement

Spud sometimes thinks it's funnier when not everybody gets the joke.

Spud's odd.

Wouldn't have taken so long, but he was penciling in corrections to the text as he went along.

Plus his sybillesque personalities were continually fighting amongst themselves.

Spud has never met anyone else with that many personalities, nor has Spud ever met an individual with less personality.

That's our Nicey.

A walkin', talkin', bible belting contradiction..

Be Well.

we are not so unique.

Posted by truthhurts at 2007-07-11 04:08 PM



We are unique in that there is no other life form (that we know of) that can contemplate its own death.

No other life form (that we know of)can begin to contemplate its place in the Universe.

We are unique in that no other life form has the need or even desire to invent a god to explain the Universe.

In the scheme of things we have developed a brain that appears to be unique.

What would be nice is for us to learn how to use this unique brain.

you nailed it, Once the council at Nicea settled on a definition of "christian" beliefs all was lost, hence the catholics hiding the scriptures from the public for hundreds of years, moving farther away from its origin and it's purpose. the reformers even stated that there was no authority left to be passed down and they created their faiths to abide the time until the restoration would take place, restoring the apostles and priesthood. Their followers, however, forgot about all that and are almost as lost as their mother religion.

exactly Ewedels!

There may have been some truth to the bible and Jesus but The Truth has been lost and subverted to the will of men for the purposes of controlling other men.

Any Catholics or Other Christians care to explain why a Gospel such as

The Gospel of Thomas

www.gnosis.org

is less qualified to be in the Bible and why it was hidden from man for thousands of years?

or do you care?


If people would only invite those nice Mormon missionaries into their homes and listen to their message, any confusion about the relationship of the catholic church, the orthodox churches, and the protestant churches to the authority to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel would be clarified. Simply stated, none of them hold that authority nor can claim it no matter how sincere their desires.

As foretold in the Bible, there was an apostasy (falling away) from the apostolic succession and only the conferring of the priesthood authority- the authoiry given to man to act in God's name- upon modern prophets and apostles could restore the authority to perform the ordinanaces of salvation. That was done through Joseph Smith in 1830 and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints holds that authority today. Read about it at "lds.org."

Given the terms of Christian history, either the catholic church has retained apostolic succession, or it hasn't. If the catholic church hasn't retained it, the protestant churches don't have it either. Hence, the need for a restoration.

So? That ain't gonna stop them...there's too much money to be made......

Any Catholics or Other Christians care to explain why a Gospel such as

The Gospel of Thomas

is less qualified to be in the Bible and why it was hidden from man for thousands of years?


Doubtful.

Be Well.

PS: And where's the story of Lilith?

In am reminded of an old joke. In my cirlcles the but of the joke were the Baptists, but for this purpose we will use Catholic.

St. Peter is showing some new arivals around heaven. As they pass this one section he asks them to be very quiet. After they move on, one person asks St. Peter why they needed to be quiet. His response... That is where the Catholics are at and they think they are the only ones here...

We have fellows here, who truly do seem like smart and nice guys, who sincerely think love is nothing more than a chemcial reaction.

This is practice for dealing with aliens, if they ever come, because anyone that conceptualizes love in that way has less in common with me than a Martian.

We are unique in that there is no other life form (that we know of) that can contemplate its own death.


TH: you sure of that?

No other life form (that we know of)can begin to contemplate its place in the Universe.

TH: you know what a tree contemplates? you place value on its contemplation. Just because it interacts with its surroundings differently than yourself you feel superior dont you.

We are unique in that no other life form has the need or even desire to invent a god to explain the Universe.

TH: I have no desire to invent a god to explain the universe. Tis just is. Likely similar to the way the trees and the animals explain their universe.

In the scheme of things we have developed a brain that appears to be unique.

TH: unique amoungst all the cosmos? knowing that we know infintely little about our universe that is a pretty strong statement.

What would be nice is for us to learn how to use this unique brain.

We have fellows here, who truly do seem like smart and nice guys, who sincerely think love is nothing more than a chemcial reaction.



all we are is a chemical reaction, well until you can prove otherwise, it is fact.

it is amazing how the feeling of love can be induced through drugs, aint it.

BTW this thing you call love is real, I dont deny that. I just dont equate it with some supernatural power.

"We are unique in that there is no other life form (that we know of) that can contemplate its own death. "

What you mean "we", retard?.

Buy a clue, they're two-for one at Sears this week.

"Until you can prove otherwise...."

Unfortunately, you don't seem to equate it with much of anything.

I'm sure drugs can induce feelings, but that one that creates meaning has yet to be created.

And, since you like research, science suggests that the experience of love requires both feeling and meaning.

In a meaningless universe, there is no love. No point.

meaning is well a meaningless word.

an entity or object outside oneself?

humans experience the world through their senses including fear, attraction, lust, love, etc. It is the belief that there is something beyond this, something supernatural that is just not so.

I didnt say there was no love, I am saying it is a physical reaction, not some supernatural device. It is a biological reactionwithin our body.

Only you can be meaningless.

"Though aware that there is nothing in the universe that suggests any purpose for humanity, one way that we can find a purpose is to study the universe by the methods of science, without consoling ourselves with fairy tales about its future, or about our own."


-- Steven Weinberg, in an article in the New York Review of Books, quoted in Dennis Overbye, "The Universe Might Last Forever, Astronomers Say, but Life Might Not" (January 1, 2002), The New York Times

"Meaning is a meaningless word...."

As I stated in another thread, your general position is we are all just slightly less dead than rocks. No there, there. At least Toklas could do somehting with brownies.

I have seen things none of you have seen.

Done a hundred things in my youth you have not dreamed of; Except a few, most of whom I know, or knew:
www.virtualwall.org

I have seen things none of you have seen.

Done a hundred things in my youth you have not dreamed of; Except a few, most of whom I know, or knew: www.virtualwall.org


Posted by Zatoichi at 2007-07-11 09:17 PM | Reply


Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnn I am sure in Your Psuedo Self Important mind You have but We all know better. You know if You have done half the shit You brag about doing You wouldn't have a need to "Brag" about it. The Jig is up bud. Not too many are buying it anymore.

Larry

As I stated in another thread, your general position is we are all just slightly less dead than rocks. No there, there. At least Toklas could do somehting with brownies.

Posted by Zed



no far more alive then rocks, but I do not believe we are that much mroe than the animals of the woods, well except in the ability to delude ourselves that we are special. The universe does not surround us. we do not own this world we are part of it. do we have the same value as rocks or trees or animals, no. Do we have much in common with them, yes.

"slightly less dead than rocks"

That's why computers are made of silicon.

It's about the consciousness, not the ego; Or the ugly bags of mostly water.

But then I'm an AI kinda shell script.

www.utexas.edu

Man in his extreme is a bag of shit.

I've done something Zat hasn't done, and he prolly will never do.

Ever hear of raising the kundulini?

Thought not.

And I can spell it.

Thought not.

Posted by coyote










thought knot

If the Catholic Church hiarchy would start selling 'indlugences' as Pope Leo did in Martin Luther's time, the Catholic church would make a KILLING.

No more classes and counseling to earn forgiveness for one's sexual sins or get a preacher like Haggart playing for ONE team only, or our newest conservative hypocrite Senator from Louisana, for instance.

Slam dunk. TAKE THE MONEY !!!

Man in his extreme is a bag of shit.

That's not what I see when I look in the mirror.


Cheers

"That's not what I see when I look in the mirror."

Yeah

In your case a bag of shit would be a great improvement.

Ouch...jesus, zat. Who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?

What you mean "we", retard?.

Buy a clue, they're two-for one at Sears this week.

Posted by Zatoichi at 2007-07-11 08:57 PM |

I am sorry Zat it is true I WAS assuming you had a brain.

Go see the Wizard of Oz... he will issue you one.

to Zat-


I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain

I'd unravel any riddle
For any individ'le
In trouble or in pain


With the thoughts you'd be thinkin'
You could be another Lincoln
If you only had a brain

amen

So what you are saying is, don't ask a girl to marry you when you are high as a kite? I'd say that is sound advise. But on the contrary to your other remark, only those who have spent time on their knees in prayer can know the impact and existence of true and pure love. Give it a try. What's the worst that could happen?

smoking a joint gives your the same feeling Ewendel

Which feeling is "true"?

"That's not what I see when I look in the mirror."

Yeah

In your case a bag of shit would be a great improvement.


You claim you know what I look like? Very interesting. I am flattered that somehow you have taken the time and energy to find out what I look like.

Of course, beauty or ugliness doesn't exist in any real way because it can't be measured by science. I am sure you would agree.

Cheers

"Actually, the goal of Christians is to glorify God..."

And you believe that declaring your beliefs to be the only correct ones, and finding ways to exclude others from the grace of God somehow glorifies God?

Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2007-07-11 08:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

I do not believe declaring one's beliefs to be the only correct ones glorifies God. I do not recall ever stating that; so, I'll just spit out the words you arrogantly attempt to ascribe to me.

Question: What mortal has any power to exclude anyone from the sovereign grace of God? It is entirely up to God.

"14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." Romans 9

"I do not believe declaring one's beliefs to be the only correct ones glorifies God. I do not recall ever stating that;"

Perhaps I misinterpreted your posting Biblical quotations such as:

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

If so, then you have my apology.

A love for cheetos is a bit different, although its tasty, crunchy goodness does fill that void.

If the Catholic Church hiarchy would start selling 'indlugences' as Pope Leo did in Martin Luther's time, the Catholic church would make a KILLING.

Posted by AllAmerican at 2007-07-12 01:24 AM | Reply

I *just* read "Catholicism for dummies" (hopefully I'm just a dummy when it comes to Roman Catholicism) which said that indulgences were still for today, then proceeded to tell how Martin Luther was a crappy monk, and tried to justify much of the Crusades. I knew I'd learn something from that book, but I had no idea...

may God bless all out there reading this, including any Roman Catholics

Yes Kirk and may we all be touched by the wonderfully moist and most Holy Noodle of the Great and all powerful Flying Spaghetti Monster.

"I do not believe declaring one's beliefs to be the only correct ones glorifies God. I do not recall ever stating that;"

Perhaps I misinterpreted your posting Biblical quotations such as:

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

If so, then you have my apology.

Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2007-07-12 03:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

Perhaps we are circling the track in opposite directions. My quoting that Scripture was intended to present a Biblical truth claim. The fact that I believe it is not what makes it true. If I did not believe it, that would not make it go away.

If I did not believe it, that would not make it go away.

Posted by MACV1972 at 2007-07-12 09:34


interesting but completely wrong.

God exists only in the mind of men and women (humans).

Show me where he is other than that Mac.

"God exists only in the minds of men...."

Is solely an article of faith. How funny.

God is a meme that is fighting fiercely for it's own survival.

It evolves and adjusts just like your genes.

There is only one cure.

Education.

"Education...."

Everyone I know is educated. Some of them are hyper-educated. And, as educated people, our considered opinion is that there is nothing the least bit arrogant about you.

"that would not make it go away"


The other day
Upon the stair

I saw a man

Who wasn't there

He wasn't there again today.
I wish that he would go away.

To say that God doesn't exist is for that person to understand the universe and it's purpose. To say one believes there is no God makes him honest.

"Smart-assed skeptic, monkey man will MAKE you believe"

-Penn and Teller

To say that God doesn't exist is for that person to understand the universe and it's purpose. To say one believes there is no God makes him honest.

Posted by ewendels at 2007-07-12 10:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

But, an honest fool.

"1 The fool has said in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.

2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one." Psalm 14

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