Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, July 10, 2007

Pakistani security forces killed on Tuesday rebel cleric Abdul Rashid Ghazi during an assault on his mosque complex, an interior ministry official told Reuters.

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If enough of the rebel leaders die, so will the movement

"He was killed in the last stage of fighting."

Certainly the last stages for him anyway.

'Bout Bloody Time.

At least we now know why they call it the "Red" Mosque.

Be Well.

One can only imagine how the world would react had this been the Israeli Army that stormed the Mosque and killed 40 Jihadis .... flags would be burning, demonstrations in the streets, Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter would be out and about but this is Muslims killing Muslims and the world never really cares.

Mushariff will have to face a bloody blacklash from the other fanatical nutjobs who wave RPG's and AK's all over Pakistan, but he did what needed to be done when these scumbags attempted to create by force their own little Islamic Republic in the middle of Islamabad.

The Brits and other Europeans ought to take a good hard look at this since its probably what they will soon be facing and for anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating I suggest you read this

www.smh.com.au

And for those who'd actually like to read more of this story instead of the single paragraph from Reuters ... here's the International Herald Tribune

www.iht.com

And perhaps the truth behind the Red Mosque party:

The current Red Mosque crisis in Islamabad is unlikely to improve his image, both in Pakistan and abroad. Musharraf tolerated the Islamic radicals for weeks before deciding to move against them. Whatever the final outcome of the crisis, the Pakistani President will have to answer three major questions: How could such a crisis occur in the middle of the capital, about half a mile from the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) headquarters? Why did it occur right after the judiciary crisis? Why did it take so long for the regime to react? Whatever the answers, Musharraf is likely to appear at best incompetent and at worst complicit of attempting to divert public opinion from the real political issue of the moment.

Washington and most other Western capitals fret about the prospect of losing what they consider their best ally in the war on terror and a rampart against the supposedly inherent extremist tendencies of the Pakistani society. However, the crisis actually shows the relative weakness of extremists, and the dubious quality of Pakistan's cooperation in the war on terror and against the Taliban.

The current crisis has not been triggered by anti-Western radical clerics but by a revolt against the constant violation of the rule of law and the constitution. The protestors are lawyers and other representatives of modern civil society who have been frustrated by Musharraf's eight years of quasi-dictatorial rule.

At the same time, the truth is emerging about Pakistan's mixed commitment to combating terrorists. Islamabad has undoubtedly handed over a number of al-Qaeda militants, but the military-dominated state has been more reluctant to cooperate against the Taliban. Former Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) General James L. Jones and other U.S. military officials have recently given examples of Pakistan's refusal to cooperate in this regard. Moreover, Pakistan has not respected a number of its commitments in the war on terror. Terrorists training camps have not been dismantled, and Musharraf has occasionally threatened to stop anti-terrorism cooperation when he was bothered by Western criticism of repression of political opponents, in Balochistan and elsewhere

One can only imagine how the world would react had this been the Israeli Army that stormed the Mosque and killed 40 Jihadis

(Aww, the poor Israelis, even when they're not within a 1000 miles of an event, GZ has to play the pity card. God, I hope AIPAC pays you enough.)

But how would they react if the IDF stormed a synagogue and killed 40 zionist settlers who refuse to leave a settlement? (Not that the IDF would ever hurt a jew).
Isn't that a little closer to reality than your "feel sorry for Israel even when it has nothing to do with them"?
Oh right, the IDF is the Lord's Pure Force and only kills the bad guys with its heavenly directed bullets.

I wonder if the militia nuts in this country sympathize with this cult as much as they do the Waco wackjobs.

hmmm who are the bad guys? the radical muslims in their mosque (antigovernment types) or the dictator and his supporters.


oooops I forget some islamic cleric with a funny name was killed who until this article we have never heard of before!!! Therefore, we win!!!!!!!!!!


yeee haaaa

I wonder if the militia nuts in this country sympathize with this cult as much as they do the Waco wackjobs.

Probably. Most fundamentalist Christians would rather live next door to a devout muslim than an atheist or a gay, according to a Pew report. They'd have a lot more in common.

hmmm who are the bad guys? the radical muslims in their mosque (antigovernment types) or the dictator and his supporters.

Not really a difference. Mushareef has been coddling the islamacists for years. This guy just got allowed to get a little out of hand, so Mushareef could whack him and show he's "tough on terrorism" and the west should forget waziristan and the whole democracy thing.
It did give GZ a woodie, though.

"hmmm who are the bad guys? the radical muslims in their mosque (antigovernment types) or the dictator and his supporters."

Sometimes bad guys fight each other. Like the Republicans and Democrats.

----Most fundamentalist Christians would rather live next door to a devout muslim than an atheist or a gay, according to a Pew report.-----



Are you serious???

NG3 -- You wrote, "Most fundamentalist Christians would rather live next door to a devout muslim than an atheist ..."

Your right. A few days ago, an influential woman and I were having a conversation about her work exploring the motives of "islamic extremist". She comes at the issue from a "born-again" perspective, and couched this as something that will be resolved from up on high. When I suggested she read Hitchen's latest book ("God Is Not Great!"), she got really upset!

If our own agencies are staffed by theocrats, shouldn't they be able to understand the irrationality of all of this jihad crap?

Now maybe Musharraf will send his troops in to rescue all the millions of poor kids suffocating intellectually from the madrassahs' evil clutches?

----Now maybe Musharraf will send his troops in to rescue all the millions of poor kids suffocating intellectually from the madrassahs' evil clutches?----


That is exactly what has been going on... slowly... for some time. You won't read about it.

What happened today was part of that process. The process will keep going on for years and years, even after Mushi has long gone.

Are you serious???

Posted by Tosser


As someone who was raised atheist ~ I'm not surprise by the poll's result...so I went to a Billy Graham accredited High School in my junior year back then to do drugs with some new friends who were inmates there.

Had a blast my last 2 years there & they even let me do a talk during chapel on Bertrand Russell's "Why I'm Not A Christian" in my senior year(but to only the seniors, though, of 30 or more of them went on to become ministers & missionaries:>)

Hey Tosser ... since you're there I presume, what's the story with those in the Red Mosque. Were they "lawyers" as North seems to think or were they a bit more then "lawyers" ... ?

From what I've read which probably isn't the usual Leftie bullshit that North believes, this group began to push the envelope to force the politics to move to the Right kidnapping people etc.

Can you shed some light on it?

Tosser:
pewresearch.org

Despite their relatively liberal political orientation, Muslims by no means take liberal positions on all issues. On social issues, they are more similar to white evangelicals. About 60% of Muslim Americans, for instance, say that homosexuality should be discouraged, a figure close to that recorded among white evangelicals, and substantially higher than among other groups.

On the question of whether government should be involved in protecting morality, Muslim Americans are even more supportive of government action than evangelicals (or any other group). Roughly six-in-10 Muslims (59%) believe that government should do more to protect morality, compared with only 29% who say they worry that the government is getting too involved in the issue of morality. Among all other major religious groups, fewer than half share the view that government should do more to protect morality.

Half of Muslim Americans (50%) view the Koran as the word of God to be taken literally, word for word. Majorities of both white evangelicals (66%) and black Protestants (68%) hold a similar view of the Bible. Among Catholics and white mainline Protestants, by contrast, far fewer than half (25% and 22%, respectively) take a literal view of the Scriptures.

When asked about how they think of their personal identity, only about a quarter (28%) of all Muslim Americans say they identify themselves first as an American rather than as a Muslim. This number is strikingly similar to the percentage of white evangelicals (28%) and black Protestants (33%) who say they think of themselves first as American and only secondarily as Christian. In fact, a higher percentage of evangelicals (62%) and black Protestants (55%) identify themselves first by their faith than do Muslims (47%). (About one-fifth of Muslim Americans 18% say they think of themselves as both American and Muslim.)

Muslim Americans most closely resemble white evangelicals and black Protestants. Within all three groups, large majorities (72% of Muslim Americans, 80% of white evangelicals and 87% of black Protestants) say religion is "very important" in their own lives. Those notably high percentages set all three groups apart from Catholics (49%) and white mainline Protestants (36%).

"One can only imagine how the world would react had this been the Israeli Army that stormed the Mosque and killed 40 Jihadis "

Well NORTH ... I presume your deflection comes from you agreeing with me that although Lebanon's Army can blast away at Palestinian refugee camps to kill miltants killing scores, and the Pakistanis can kill 40 militants, the fact remains that if Israel did it people just like YOU North, you know, idiot Leftie neocomms would be all up in arms because here';s the simple truth

YOU North, don't give a flying fuck about Arabs or Muslims and whether they live or die, nor do any of the usual Jew bashers here like Byrd, Red, Ray and the list gets longer and longer as they each begin to show themselves.
They don't give a rats ass if every fucking Muslim died tomorrow. But let a Jew pick up a gun and defend himself and all hell breaks loose. Deny it NORTH?

Then explain why not a peep was uttered when the Lebanese blew away scores of Palestinians to kill Fatah al Islam?
Huh?

Of Pakistan's 175 million people, more than half -- roughly 90 million of them -- are under the age of 25 years old. 60 million of them are age 15 or younger!!

Think about it -- This is a very impressionable piopulation. These are very impressionable kids. They have no "Western" ideals to look up to. They only have the ulema -- the muslim clerics -- to tell them right from wrong, and to offer them hope in this life and in anything to come after this life. Is it any wonder they can easily become radicalized?

And down at the madrassah, there are such nice clerics, old, devout men with flowing beards and finely knit skullcaps, who will take young children from desititue parents, provide them with a warm bed, food and water to eat and drink, and lessons in Quran to enrich their minds and souls. Millions and millions of young souls are being cared for this way.

(I wonder if Cheny or Dubya ever thought about the effect they are having on these children and on how our national actions will affect how the children of Pakistan will regard the USA when they are old enough to have children of their own.)

another one bites the dust
another one bites the dust
hey, hey
another one bites the dust
antherr one bites the dust
well hey ey ey ey yeah yeah

---Were they "lawyers" as North seems to think or were they a bit more then "lawyers" ... ?----


He is confusing two completely different issues.

There are a whole bunch of lawyers who are really pissed at poor Mushi.

And then there were these guys.

They have nothing in common.


----this group began to push the envelope to force the politics to move to the Right kidnapping people etc.----


More or less...

But I will tell you the real reason.

Only 10 years ago, Pakistan had 2, 3 Govt. controlled TV channels, no FM radio, Govt. controlled radio, shitty internet, etc.

Since Mushi, we have broadband internet everywhere, hundreds of TV channels, freedom of information, and anyone can set up a FM radio station. Everyone has mobile phones.

Fanatics felt very comfortable 10 years ago when it was easy to control info. They did run the country in 1980s... that is when all these illegal madressas were built.

But NOW... whenever you have information tech... hundreds of TV channels, no Govt. control... the Fanatic can not survive.

So they reacted by targeting DVD shops, sending good squads into the bazaars to stop folk buying DVDs. This was the first thing they did... target info-tech.

By it's very nature.. TV and internet and mobile phones kill off mullah and Taliban-types.

Also, Pakistan has used these guys as "tools" in the past. They made the mistake of thinking they were the "hand". Big mistake.

Lets take a look NORTH, at England's Muslims many of whom are Pakistani

"While car bombs were being prepared in London and Glasgow, I was visiting the land of the niqab, communities that are in England but not of England, where I was usually the only white person on the street, where the veil and the beard are the norm, and where sharia law holds greater authority than English common law. I was in East London, Bradford, Dewsbury, all bastions of the niqab.

The niqab is the veil which covers the entire face of a woman, except for a slit for the eyes. It has become the symbol of revolt in Pakistan, a tinderbox of Islamic fundamentalism and political instability, where hundreds of young women in black niqabs in the capital, Islamabad, have been challenging the authority of the military Government all year. What they really want is an Islamic state in Pakistan.

I've just been sharing streets and markets with scores of women hidden behind black niqabs, quite a powerful social statement, but these women were in Tower Hamlets in London, Manningham in Bradford, Savile Town in Dewsbury, and in shopping centres in Luton and Leeds.

Manningham and Savile Town and East London are places where the centre of community life is the mosque, where most of the children in the primary schools come from Muslim families. These are self-contained, self-assured functioning communities, not ghettos, not deprived and not excluded. They are self-excluding. These communities are growing in size, number and confidence. The majority of families originated in Pakistan and are alive to the tensions there.

In Whitechapel, within sight of the City of London, the financial centre of Europe, women in niqabs are common at the market. They retrieve their children from the Osmani Primary School then disappear into the rows of council houses nearby. London's large Muslim population is concentrated in several areas, such as Tower Hamlets, but the centre of gravity of Muslim life in Britain is much further north, in gritty Yorkshire.

In Bradford, I visited Manningham, the inner-city suburb where the first Asian race riots in Britain took place in June, 1995. It started outside the Lawcroft House police centre, which sits like a fortress next to Manningham, after a rumour went round that police had manhandled a Muslim family. A crowd gathered, bottles were thrown, police responded, a melee became a riot, cars were attacked, businesses firebombed. The violence spread to other cities in northern England with large South Asian communities. They were called the "Asian" riots. We now know better. They were Britain's first Muslim riots.

In Leeds, I went to Beeston, the suburb where three of the four London suicide bombers of 2005 grew up. The entire suburb is the colour of rust, bleak, but a functioning working-class suburb with two mosques. I had lunch at the fish and chip shop operated by the family of one of the London bombers. Excellent chips. The question in Beeston remains as to why three of its young men turned to mass murder while the rest of the community got on with life.

In nearby Dewsbury the niqab is commonplace, as befits the town regarded as the centre of Islamic fundamentalism in Britain. It was in Dewsbury that a young woman, Aishah Azmi, went to court after she lost her job as a teaching assistant because she refused to open her niqab while teaching.

She lost her case. Muslim life in Dewsbury is concentrated in Savile Town, a completely Muslim district dominated by one of the largest mosques in Britain, the Markazi Masjid mosque.

In Keighley, a grim industrial town near Bradford, the only impressive large building is the new mosque, just opened and filling a city block. Its green domes and golden crescents provide the only drama on the drab Keithley skyline. Over the entrance to this mosque is a sign: "There is no god but Allah."

It is not a subtle message. The mutual suspicions and insularity which separate these Muslim communities from the rest of Britain can only grow in the wake of the Glasgow and London car bombs, which have merely added to the long list of murders and attempted murders that have afflicted Britain in the name of Allah during the past decade. The riots of 1995 were merely a hint of the trouble to come.

It will not matter that no one from Manningham, or Savile Town, or East London or Beeston have been implicated in the latest attempts at mass-murder. Those who wear the niqab, or the hijab, or the beard and Muslim cap, will feel the undertow of suspicion as the wedge grows between the moderate majority in the Muslim community and the rest of society.

It is the tragedy of modern Britain. What truly complicates this picture is the issue of reciprocity: when a society, such as Britain and every society in the developed West, provides freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom from oppression by the state, plus social security benefits and medical care, the implicit social contract is that there is a reciprocity between the community and civil society.

In Islamic communities, however, reciprocity is a problem. Because there is but one God, Allah, and his teachings dictate every aspect of life and social organisation. This is a schism.

In Britain, the problem with reconciling two different ways of thought and social organisation has been compounded by a decade of mush from the government of Tony Blair, which managed to achieve the worst of both worlds: it took Britain to war in the heart of the Islamic world, and it went to water on the issues of illegal immigration, social cohesion and hate speech. The result is that Britain has become the centre of Islamic terrorism in Europe and a Petri dish of Muslim insularity.

www.smh.com.au

ah gzekiel,

Spreading the idea of love, equality and justice again.

You're a true humanitarian. You should give little kids lessons in life about tolerance, understanding and the ability to view an issue from different perspectives.

----Millions and millions of young souls are being cared for this way.----


1.9 million only. LOL

There was a school program for little girls... if a girl goes to school, she gets to take home a big tin of cooking oil or milk.

This was *very* successful.

But then the Govt. changed and everyone forgot about it.

Just provide the kids with a freebie and that is where they will go. No problem.

Another solution is to upgrade the madressas with computers and stuff to bring them up to high-school level.

It works. But many resist, suspecting a "trick".

---It has become the symbol of revolt in Pakistan, a tinderbox of Islamic fundamentalism and political instability, where hundreds of young women in black niqabs in the capital, Islamabad, have been challenging the authority of the military Government all year. What they really want is an Islamic state in Pakistan.----


THAT went to Hell today.

hahahahahahaha

No, seriously... these very same women have either been killed, sent to jail, or given back to their parents who will make sure they never see the inside of a madressa again.

The burqa, an ugly symbol of islamic politics, is now buried under tons of dirt. People are treating such folk as lepers.

1.9 MM only? If you say so, I assume that is in ALL of Pakistan? Sounds a bit low ball to me, because of the youth of the population, but going with the data you choose, who "licenses" these facilities? Are the clerics allowed to beat or force the "students" to do child labor? What limits exist on the administrator? Who enforces these limits? And can the Pakistani government close down a privately funnded (charity funded) madrassah? Is a military takeover the only realistic means to close one?

Further to previous -- The idea of PCs in the classrooms of madrassah's sounds good. But then, the techie jihadists would love to teach another 1.9 million techie jihadis. The jihadi propagandists would love to rattle the cages of the weak in spirit, and to torment the kafir. Would cyber-warfare be on the curriculum at the madrassahs?

Again, the Pakistani government needs to get control of the faculty at the madrassahs if they can. I surmise that the situation in pakistan is quite dire. How do you see it?

----The result is that Britain has become the centre of Islamic terrorism in Europe and a Petri dish of Muslim insularity.----



I couldn't agree more.

Pak-Brit women still wear fashions we abandoned in Pakistan 30 years ago. They are not only cut off from British society, but cut off in many ways from modern Pakistan as well (most of them went to UK from tiny little villages).

Something is wrong with British society itself. If it produces dysfunctional muslims, it also produces Yobs and football hooligans.

Pakistanis are the largest immigrant group in Norway.

No Yobs, no dysfunctional muslims, no football hooligans, and no 30 year old fashions.

Norway is a better society I guess.

Tosser -- "The burqa, an ugly symbol of islamic politics, is now buried under tons of dirt. People are treating such folk as lepers."

Many hope you are right. It never existed in Mohammed's life. I have never ehard any reference that any of his wives ever wore a burqa. So how did the burqa come into being? (I suppose that Muslim radicals felt trying to be western meant becoming weaker and inferior. No one really understands mass psychology.)

One would hope that in Pakistan, they could learn respect and tolerance for non-Muslims, and for each other, and for other ways of living around the world.

--- If you say so, I assume that is in ALL of Pakistan?---


Yes, all of Pakistan. You can look it up.


---who "licenses" these facilities?---


Govt. is trying to get them to agree to Govt. licensing.. which would mean eventual upgrade to high-school level.

Some have agreed. Many still refuse. They say don't need anyone's license.


---Are the clerics allowed to beat or force the "students" to do child labor?---


No.

But you do understand... like when Catholic priests rape little boys... same has been known.. on rare occasions... to happen in such places.

Priest is a priest, muslim or christian.



---And can the Pakistani government close down a privately funnded (charity funded) madrassah?---


Technically, yes.


---Is a military takeover the only realistic means to close one?---


If they happen to have as much arms and ammo as these guys had... LOL

We said it would all be over in 30 minutes. It took more than 12 hours. Boy, did we underestimate them...


---But then, the techie jihadists would love to teach another 1.9 million techie jihadis.----


Pakistan is full of computers anyway. You got a cybercafe on every street corner.

The ones who want such skills can easily get them anyway.


---I surmise that the situation in pakistan is quite dire. How do you see it?---


It is not dire at all.

These guys were at their peak during the 1980s. They have been losing ground since then.

Whenever Pakistan has had free elections, they have NEVER got more than 13% of the vote.

Incidents happen now and then whihc make people think that such people are winning... but seen in a broader context... Islamists can not survive in an information-rich and communication-rich environment.

The only reason, Amreeka isn't puritan is because you always had a free press.

Same will happen here.

It works.

Incidents happen now and then whihc make people think that such people are winning... but seen in a broader context... Islamists can not survive in an information-rich and communication-rich environment.



Not true, saudi arabia, iran, iraq, eygpt all are information-rich and communication rich environments.

---It never existed in Mohammed's life. I have never ehard any reference that any of his wives ever wore a burqa. So how did the burqa come into being?---



From what I know of Islamic History, it came to Muslim traders 300 years after Mohammed, from the Greek traders. (Greek Orthodox Church).

The modern tomfoolery of the burqa, hijab, niqab, whatever, being a symbol of resistance or islamic politics, was started in the 1970s by the damn Iranians.

The burqa or hijab (headscarf only) is not part of Islam itself and is not mentioned in the Koran.

---Not true, saudi arabia, iran, iraq, eygpt all are information-rich and communication rich environments.---


No, they are not. Not when compared to Pakistan or USA.

Only one mobile phone company is allowed to operate in the UAE, for God's sake (Eitisalat).. and it is owned by their royal family. etc. etc.

Iran put a lid on internet speeds... nobody can go faster than 128kb. You call THAT broadband? etc etc.

The places you mentioned, do glitter.. but it is only glitter.

Pakistan has the second highest growth in mobile communications in the world.. after China. India is third.

Internet growth is also one of the highest in the world.

THIS is what it takes.

Iran, UAE, Saudi, etc. don't have what it takes.

Norway is a better society I guess.

Posted by Tosser


Well, they have that state owned oil & some weird churchs that still show off pieces of ancient Saints as bragging material!...They call them "relics".

I tried to track down a HS classmate who had return home (she had sent a nude photo of herself:>) when I was there a few years back in Oslo ~ Still have a news magazine showing Clinton groping a Norwegian Blond babe on its cover for he was there at the same time:>)LOL

---I tried to track down a HS classmate who had return home (she had sent a nude photo of herself----


Well, of course you tried to track her down! I would've done the same.

I can't resist blonds (never having seen a real one).

All Norwegians are blond down there!:>)

---All Norwegians are blond down there!----


Damn... this I gotta see for meself.

Except them "relics"...after awhile:>)


www.catholic.com

All Norwegians are blond down there!:>)

As opposed to all Brazilian girls.

Which is to say...

When you go down there
There's no "down" there.

Be Well.

still looking for blond "relics"


en.wikipedia.org

Muslim relics...LOL

en.wikipedia.org

GZ: You should be careful about bitching about Muslim terrorists. They may become, like Yasser Arafat and Marwan Bugwhatever, Heroes of the State of Israel.

And as far as schisms in islam, seems to me the Pope just said Protestants aren't real Christians. I'm pretty sure the Orthodox jewish draft dodgers feel the same way about other jews too.

This action is another reminder why it is important that we continue to support our ally, President Musharraf. He is a dictator. But he understands the threat posed by militant Islam and has no hesitancy to strike it where viable.

----But he understands the threat posed by militant Islam and has no hesitancy to strike it where viable.-----


It wasn't Mushi alone. It was all of us who were screaming at him to do something about these people.

For the last few months the press was full of demands we fix them. Mushi.. finally... only did what the people wanted him to do. And he was slow about it.

---And as far as schisms in islam, seems to me the Pope just said Protestants aren't real Christians. ----


I repeat what I said on the other thread...

Call the Pakistan Army.. we will fix this Vatican Madressa.

February 15, 2007

"Are You a Christian?"
"Do I Look Like the Pope?"
An Exchange Between Lenni Brenner & Gilad Atzmon



www.counterpunch.org:80

Tosser -- you do have a sense of humor!
"Call the Pakistan Army.. we will fix this Vatican Madressa." Good one!

(Actually, since 1648 among Westerners, the differences between papists and non-papists usually remains a difference in opinion, not life or death dispute.)

---the differences between papists and non-papists usually remains a difference in opinion, not life or death dispute----



Of course not. Nobody fights for religion. They fight for their politics and for power. Christians do it all the time, as do Muslims.

Even Iraqis killing each other is a turf war. It might be dressed up as something religious, but it is simply street gang warfare run by Iran.

The Mulla we killed yesterday.. that wasn't about religion at all either. It was about him grabbing more land to extend his madressa... taking over a children's library by force... all for a madressa that was built on illegally grabbed land in the first place. LOL

Religion is only used as a later justification for the history books or for saying things like "the enemy is violent and it is useless negotiating with religious nuts".

Even O'Binbin wants you dead not because you are non-Muslim... he doesn't give a fart if you convert to Islam or not (I am pretty sure of it). He did what he did because without the US, the Saudi Royal family will fall overnight. The Bin Ladins will become no.1 in Saudi. They have the money and the power to make it happen.

"Something is wrong with British society itself. If it produces dysfunctional muslims, it also produces Yobs and football hooligans."

'The Satanic Verses' spends more much time describing the alienation of dark skinned immigrant populations on the part of the Brits than it does criticizing Mohammed (although it does go after him pretty good). Pretty funny that they knighted Rushdie for it.

"Even O'Binbin wants you dead not because you are non-Muslim... he doesn't give a fart if you convert to Islam or not (I am pretty sure of it). He did what he did because without the US, the Saudi Royal family will fall overnight. The Bin Ladins will become no.1 in Saudi. They have the money and the power to make it happen."

This may be true about the leaders but the followers are true believers. And they are the ones that do the actual damage. Can't really argue that a suicide bomber has any consideration other than the afterlife.

"Since Mushi, we have broadband internet everywhere, hundreds of TV channels, freedom of information, and anyone can set up a FM radio station. Everyone has mobile phones."

As it happens, I am working on a project for Pakistan (work in Venture Capital) to deploy wireless broadband. Your stats are slightly off:

Mobile phone penetration is ~10% of the population
Broadband Internet = .4% of population in top 20 cities and basically 0% outside of that. Broadband in Pakistan is defined as any connection above 64kbps.
The entire country of 164M has about 6M computers in total.

Yes, they have a lot of internet cafes, but information technology is far from available and lagging well behind Saudi, etc.

Your numbers are old. Specially as to the number of computers in the country. As most stuff is smuggled (we tend not to pay taxes if we can help it), whatever the numbers are, the real numbers are anything from 3 to 10 times higher.

And I am talking about the rate of growth. It is among the highest in the world.

For example, there are 60 million mobile phone users in the country. A few years ago, there weren't even a million.

Cheap and affordable Broadband started only a year ago and is accelerating faster than anyone in the region, including China.

Saudi, etc. can't compare.

---Yes, they have a lot of internet cafes, but information technology is far from available and lagging well behind Saudi, etc.---


How many people has Saudi got? About as many as a quarter of the population of our small towns? LOL

And Saudi internet is controlled. You can't walk into a public computer and look at porn without being executed or something. Over here? Look at all the porn you want.

Point was...if you were following the conversation... if someone wants to pick up hacker skills.. they can.

en.wikipedia.org

So we can see, either your numbers are very old... or you are badly in error.
--------------------------

Cellphone market has exploded twelvefold since 2000 to reach a subscriber base of over 50 million in 2007.
----------------------
With a rapid increase in the number of internet users and ISPs, and a large English-speaking population, Pakistani society has seen major changes.

* Pakistan has more than 20 million internet users as of 2005. The country is said to have a potential to absorb up to 50 million mobile phone Internet users in the next 5 years thus a potential of nearly 1 million connections per month.
* Almost all of the main government departments, organizations and institutions have their own websites.
* The use of search engines and instant messaging services is also booming. Pakistanis are some of the most ardent chatters on the Internet, communicating with users all over the world. Recent years have seen a huge increase in the use of online marriage services, for example, leading to a major re-alignment of the tradition of arranged marriages.
* As of 2005 there were 6 cell phone companies operating in the country with nearly 28 million mobile phone users in the country.
* Wireless local loop and the landline telephony sector has also been liberalized and private sector has entered thus increasing the teledensity rate from less than 3% to more than 10% in span of two years.
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Like I said... Saudis.. or anyone else... can't match this rate of growth.

Give it ten more years. Then see again.

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