I've got your "long-term endeavor" hanging, Petraeus....

Old news -- Already heard this from the top back in 2004!

exactly. remember "the long war"?
or was it "The Global War on Terror"?
Hell, they've made up so many rah-rah names, i can't keep 'em straight.

I've got it...
"Whip Inflation and the War on Drugs Now!"

Well, hopefully, given the fact that Petraeus is, essentially, saying nothing's changed, Congress will finally grow a pair and actually do something to STOP THIS CRAP THAT'S NEEDLESSLY GETTING PEOPLE ALL DEAD!

Well, let Bush and cronies and the RNC send their war supporters over there to fight. They can also pay for it.

I say let's fight the enemy here so we don't have to fight the enemy over there.

If Patraeus says we can't leave right now, and the Iraqi minister says not yet, why should we believe anything else? I listen to generals, not politicians. We all should.

...off a short term pier.

"I say let's fight the enemy here so we don't have to fight the enemy over there."

Bravo Turn....Frank Luntz would be so proud of your work!

i'm gonna play devils advocate here:

"This comprehensive offensive that we have launched into al-Qaeda sanctuaries and locations where there are al-Qaeda affiliates is in fact showing effect," he said.

"In Baghdad for example, June was the lowest month for sectarian deaths in a year."

By contrast, April, May and June were the deadliest three months for US troops since the invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

-going into iraq was a mistake. the organization that attacked us on 9/11 was not located in iraq.... just an asshole dictator.

-because of our mistake, al qaida has tried to take up permanent safe havens in iraq. as a result of our 'take over' of iraq, we have drawn in our true enemy. IMHO, i believe it would be an even bigger mistake now to run from that fight.

If Patraeus says we can't leave right now, and the Iraqi minister says not yet, why should we believe anything else? I listen to generals, not politicians. We all should

Tell that to the idiots who ignored the generals saying this would need 500,000 troops. Or how about the ones who said this wasn't going to work in the first place?

Sorry, but the idea of listening to the generals NOW is a bit foolish, especially since no general is EVER going to advocate a withdrawl.

the initial argument for NOT going into iraq (and a very valid one btw) was that al qaida is not involved. well, apparently now they are very involved, and the new argument for leaving iraq is because its tole on lives and money.

so, by that logic, the initial argument for not wanting to go into iraq because al qaida isn't there is not flawed. they are there, and if we leave they will have a safe haven. so the only argument for leaving now is because its too tough to fight this enemy....


i have no idea what the best answer is, i have friends and family going there for their 2nd or 3rd time. please don't respond to my posts with worthless insults that solely serve your political drive... but try to be specific and void of emotion.

so, by that logic, the initial argument for not wanting to go into iraq because al qaida isn't there is NOW flawed.

sry

Yodar,

The solution is for us to get the hell out and let Iraq handle Iraq's security. Al Q is there, yes, but once the sectairan thing gets out from the back alleys, they won't be there for long.

Yes, it's going to get bloody when we leave, but it doesn't matter if that's tomorrow or in a couple centuries. It's just going to be bloody.

We kicked a hornet's nest and they will keep attacking until we leave and let them build a new nest.

But Wobbie the Turdhole says we should all stand behind our President and the General's.

but rev don't you worry that if/when the sectarian thing gets very out of hand, it will make the country so weak that Al Q will only have an easier time of creating safe havens? esp since they direct foreign backing?

or will iran have to move in to keep sunni Al Q from taking over? then the Saudis may feel compelled.

but yes, good points.

So much fer a "snapshot" come September.

Petreus didn't spent the better part of two years re-writing the army's "book" on counter insurgency just to say "Let's go home now".

Believe that shit.

Going in, everybody on the left sed "Don't go, there's no AQ there"

Now, the RTs are saying "we can't leave now cos there's AQ there".

** deeeep sigh **

Spud seriously believe that if the US draw down to minimal levels the Iraqis themselves can and will take care of the AQ themselves.

The longer the occupation continues the less likely this is to happen.

Be Well.

Yodar...

AQ in Iraq is not the same as AQ in Afghanistan and Pakistan. As a matter of fact, I just read an article today where media folks are going to stop using the catch-all AQ and start calling Iraq's version AQ in Mesopotamia instead.

AQ in Mesopotamia are strictly Sunnis, the minority within Iraq. If we get out of the way, the Shiites will take care of AQ all by themselves since they want nothing to do with their presence in their nation. Right now, we (US) is arming Sunnis who until very very recently were targeting and killing American soldiers. They too are sick of AQ indiscriminate bombings and murders.

However, there is no guarantee that the Sunnis now fighting AQ won't again turn on us. We're playing with the devil again hoping that he won't turn on us. You know what happens when you play with fire, don't you? I want your family and friends to be brought out of the hell we allowed Iraq to become. We need to have a presence there but it needs to be someplace else other than in the killing streets of this civil war on multiple fronts.

** deeeep sigh **

Spud seriously believe that if the US draw down to minimal levels the Iraqis themselves can and will take care of the AQ themselves.

first off, ur funny as shit. i think that would be the best outcome and possibly our best plan from here on out.

but rev don't you worry that if/when the sectarian thing gets very out of hand, it will make the country so weak that Al Q will only have an easier time of creating safe havens? esp since they direct foreign backing?

Honestly, no.

See, Al Q relies quite heavily on the idea that the population from which they recruit are dangerously disenfranchised with their political structure (believing that extreme violence is the only solution). Their specialty is breeding chaos from an enforced order.

They will be pretty much useless in recruiting people to commit violence when the area is already supremely violent, but with no discernable structure to fight against.

When order is restored, it will most likely be order decided on by the majority of the people, therefore the supreme disenfranchisement will not be an issue, at least not for a while, and by that time, the control mechanisms within the country should be able to handle them.

tony, yea that is interesting stuff. sounds kinda crazy arming our former "enemies" because they don't like the extreme Al Q sunnis. but i remember hearing that the iraqi sunnis don't like the action of Al Q (as you mentioned) nor do they like the religious extremism.

but as far as your first point, (letting the shites deal with Al Q aka sunnis), isn't that kinda advocating/ allowing a genocide? which is what we saw the building up of when we first went in their and overthew the sunni gov?

but rev, wouldn't that 'enforced order' come from al sadr and iran? wiping out sunnis? wouldn't al Q have a great lure to disenfrachised sunnis that are being slaughtered by the shiites? plus al Q could offer some monetary and weapon assistance?

part of me feels that since this is a 10 year process, leaving now/changing course big time would be wasting 4 years.... of that 10 year cycle. even tho we can't really noticeably see progress..

I think ANYONE that wants to Stay past September needs to go to their local recruiter and sign up for Iraq Duty. You have a Hard On for this War You should be willing to sacrifice Your Bodies for it. Oh and if You are too old I am sure they STILL Could use You over there. Lots of "Rebuilding" to do. Get after it.

Sincerely
Larry Mohr

Yodar,

If the the Shia were to slaughter the Sunni, then, yes, they would have a greatg recruitment tool.

However...

Judging from what I've been able to piece together from the sources I've read who are native Iraqis, the majority of the country (those still there, mind you) are secular in nature.

In essence, they don't CARE what version of Muslim you are, or even if you're Muslim at all.

If we were to pull our troops out (not all, but the vast majority), I believe the secular majority would step up to take control and prevent that kind of enforced order.

I admit, I'm going against my general belief in humanities ultra-violent nature by putting forth this hypothesis, but I have reason to believe it's the most likely outcome. Bear in mind, however, I'm fairly certain that it will take at least 50 years for it to play out, but it's going to play out either tomorrow or after "decades" of occupation by us.

rev interesting. and the majority being secular would explain the decrease in the death squads etc.

but again wouldn't al sadr and iran be able to enforce order very easily?

we are all animals at heart right.

but if its 50 years to play out vs a decade and a half with our occupation, then obviously the future of iraq looks much better with the latter.

i dunno.....be back after a quick subway ride...

We need to have a presence there but it needs to be someplace else other than in the killing streets of this civil war on multiple fronts.

Tony Roma.

i think that would be the best outcome and possibly our best plan from here on out.

Yodar.

Spud sez gotta think realpolitik about this too. First off the permanent bases are the perfect fall back position. Secondly, the Taliban are much emboldened in Afghanitan b/c of the reduced troop levels there. Thirdly, support for Iraq globally is lost but defeating the Taliban in Afghanistan is still looked upon as doable, at least worth really trying fer a change. Erog draw done to teh bases after giving the Iraqi government lead time to prepare for the move, send some troops home, sen others to Afghanistan to finish the job there.

Finally, the oil.

Corporate America's investment in infrastructure and the like cannot ever be allowed to be taken over by foreign powers or nationalised by a new Iraqi government hungry for revenge.

The economic consequences to the US would be immense and staggering.

Spud hates lies and unneccessary wars but Spud does see the neccessity of admitting that point.

Fuck the concept of Fortress Baghdad, the Prison City, though, and also... rethink the embassy.

Be Well.

PS: If Big Oil wants and needs the US forces to babysit the oilfields and pipeline projects they should pay for the privilege.

Disband the corporate army NOW!.

Yodar,

My point is that it's going to be about 50 years to play out IN ADDITION to our occupation.

Right on Larry M,

Starting with Dick, George, Laura, Lynne...and lets not forget the twins...and there's also Mary...

9+1+1+2=13 (Fuzzy Math 113)

Gorgie (asking perplexedly): Daddy said not to capture OBL!!! Why do you think he said that dickie?

Dickie (talking as if he were a kindergarten teacher): Because when the Tali take over the Paki, they will have real nukes, thus real enemy, thus real excuse, and that's when the real showdown really begins!!! This preliminary stuff, like not having to tell people how building 7 collapsed and stuff, was just kid's stuff.

Georgie (with wonderment and excitement):
Hey, Dick!!! What does p-r-e-i-l-i-m-i-n-a-r-r-i-i-e-
e mean? Is that why he wanted you to be my vicey?

Dickie (scratching his bald head): You mean cause I'm so smart???

Georgie (like a kid in a candy store): Yeah!!! You really know how to make lots of money an' stuff!!! And now we can afford those seats!!!

Dickie (thinking about his hunting trip the week before): What seats???
Georgie (eyes go big and round): Well, my daddy told me that we were going to see a "limited nuclear theater"!!!

Dickie (holding his crotch like Michael Jackson): Hehehe, right! You sure catch on quick gorgie, and those libies said you was a dummy!!!

Turn to announcer: Get your seats early!!! Tickets are going fast!!! Sorry, front row center tickets are already sold out...you regular folks will have to wait outside in the [purple] rain...

i think spud nailed it on the head....

rev, thats pretty pessimistic, but more often than not, pessimism is more realistic than optimism.

....damn its hot here in NY, that gore must be on to something...

""Corporate America's investment in infrastructure and the like cannot ever be allowed to be taken over by foreign powers or nationalised by a new Iraqi government hungry for revenge.

The economic consequences to the US would be immense and staggering.""

To who?
American "Interests" are really corporate interests. I say, don't disband the private army just make corporate America pay for it. Get our troops out of Iraq and the ME, let corporate America fend for itself in that hostile environment form which they have sucked profits for decades.
Not one American soldier should risk his/her life for corporate interests.
Explain "American interests" to the American people in realistic terms and see what they think about it.

SPUD... "Disband the corporate army NOW!"

If I'm not mistaken you are a Canadian...

And, you make more dense than most Americans...

Go figure...

DANNI... "Explain "American interests" to the American people in realistic terms and see what they think about it"

He's right: it's a war for oil, and we need oil to continue as a nation. If America had invested in alternative enrgy in the 70's, 80's or even the 90's we might not be so dependent on Middle Eastern energy resourses, but this is not the case, unforetunately...

DANNI...

I agree with you that American corporate interests should gaurd their own investments...

Especially since they are going to continue to nail us at the pumps for the oil that our soldiers are dying for. If they want Americans to fight and die for the oil in Iraq it should be a national investment from which every american benefits from, and from which the Corporation makes no profit from...

Correction...

And, you make more "SENSE" than most Americans...

Sorry, my bad...

PS: Or to put that musically...

"We're in a road movie to Berlin
Can't drive out the way we drove in
So sneak out this glass of bourbon
and we'll go"

TMBG.

Be Well.

Ha! More Dense?

There are a few around here who would certainly agree...

More SENSE?

Ha! Is better.

Spud has a sixth sense, ya know.

Eye see Dumb People!

Look there's YKW and Wob!

See? It werks!

Them guys postage reminds Spud of a pair of dead skunks in the middle of the road in the summer heat.

ie they STINK!

Ha! Thanx fer puttin' yer "two scents" in, ya chucklehedz.

Spud is always throwing his two cents in here.

Bloody Canadian change!

Be Well.

Jeeezzz...this is more fixed than pro wrestling. The statement for me just translates as "we have no freakin' clue as to how to get out of this mess, so let's just dump it in the lap of the next administration and blame them. Yeah! That's the ticket!" More of our kids are going to die for nothing, as Petraeus and the rest of micro-managing career desk jockey joint chiefs play Command & Conquer at around $12 billion a month. How you true believers can wrap your flag around this is beyond my comprehension. There ain't no warm & fuzzy ending to this John Wayne movie.

""All that sed, if the choice is between letting the corps have their own armies or letting the army handle the responsibilities and get compensated for it Spud chooses the latter.""

But it isn't an either/or choice. There is also the choice of telling American Corporations that the US government is not going to protect their interests overseas and also not allow them to recruit private armies either.
Conservation is the only possible answer to our energy crisis and allowing the corporations who have bought and paid our politicians to continue to prevent us from instituting real policies that will bring about a real reduction in consumption is the road to destruction.

Conservation is the only possible answer to our energy crisis and allowing the corporations who have bought and paid our politicians to continue to prevent us from instituting real policies that will bring about a real reduction in consumption is the road to destruction.

Posted by danni

close... conservation is the only possible answer to our energy crisis in the future. you are correct about these policies, we should have had more $ for R/D in alternative energy decades ago.... and it should have been the goal for every american after 9/11.

quick example.... in the mid 20th cent., ford, firestone, and i believe GM, bought the public transportation system for LA from the California gov. what did they do? rip it the hell up, it was fast and efficient, but they wanted a future driving city that would guarentee them demand for another century. very sad.

however danni you underestimate the effect of skyrocketing oil prices on the consumers in this country.. EVERYTHING and i mean everything will cost a whole lot more if oil skyrockets. every consumer good has to be transported one way or another, many from the other side of the world.

now i'm not advocating the invasion of the middle east because of this fact, i stated above what i think should (have) happened. i've read some brilliant people who believe the chinese will end up marching into the middle east as their demand for oil doubles by 2050.

oh, and not to mention, the consumers affected the harshest... the poor. that and the markets would be thrown through one hell of a loop.

now i'm not trying to take a jab here, but i believe that if this were to happen to oil prices and the resulting caos..... you would blame corporate america.... when really the only thing to blame would be middle eastern stability.

why do you think we (our gov and our people) tend to turn a blind eye to african stability?

""you would blame corporate america.... when really the only thing to blame would be middle eastern stability.""

God damned right I would. Had we instituted the policies of that much maligned former president, Jimmy Carter, we would not need one single drop of ME oil but the corporations WHO OWN THE FUCKING MEDIA helped convince America that increasing mileage standards etc. would be somehow unAmerican.
Now young men and women die in Iraq because of corporate greed and American's willingness to drive gas guzzlers unnecessarily.
Yes our country will feel an economic pinch when we finally do realize that conservation is our only hope for the future but it will also motivate entrepreneurs to solve the energy problems without the use of ME oil.

first off, there are many entrepreneurs trying to come up with alternative fuels. why are they there looking for these alternative fuels? because there is MAD MONEY in it.... this comes down to greed, corporate greed, that will save our energy crises (something you despise). who do you think has a better chance of delivering an efficient non-fuel derived energy cell? some person like you or me who takes out a loan for 100K to do research because we know that its best for our country? or the billions upon billions of money put into research/development by BP and others?


so is it the corporations that 'control the media' and convinced us all not to implement energy standards etc to blame? or the gov for not pushing harder and taking a cut from the lobbyist? both of course, but i lean a little more towards the latter, while you are hanging on the wall of the former.

danni, your adversity to corporate america is a bit extreme IMHO. you have to be able to see what greatnes corporate america/capitalism/profit has done for our country. one also should see the pitfalls of corporate america, but i believe you have that end of the spectrum covered. in order to better something, you have to see where it is good, not just where it is bad.

your last line is interesting, let us feel the pinch. i forget who, some wealthy ass oil biz guy, who said he believes that gas prices should be taxed and brought above 5 bucks. you see that is where the demand curve starts to kink (ie it is straight up and down, non elastic, below that).

however, if the ME goes into complete caos, and mr. imanutjob in iran keeps pulling his shit, trust me, it won't be a pinch... it'll be more of a crush.

......and GM keeping us from saving a few miles on the highway wouldn't make a difference.....

maybe if the CONSUMER didn't like such god awful SUVs, we'd be better off. u see, the blame goes all around. including us.

"....and GM keeping us from saving a few miles on the highway wouldn't make a difference...."

Quick: what would help us more: a 2mpg rise in the CAFE standards, or drilling in ANWAR?

Decades?

I guess "shock and awe" doesn't take effect until its had some time to settle in.

shock and awe is a technique used when fighting another organized army. it did work, we didn't really see any organized resistance in baghdad.

however this is a nation building military excercise... the first of its kind. we have the best military for it in the world, and yet we still suck at it.

we need 2 types of military, one do to the dirty work-shock and awe- 19year olds with automatic rifles, not well educated. the second to be the nation/peace building force, older people, more educated, multilingual, and not as heavily armed.

we are figuring this out the hard way.