Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Wednesday, July 04, 2007

The American Civil Liberties Union sued the city of Slidell on Tuesday for displaying a painting of Jesus in a courthouse lobby, saying it violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

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From the article: "The suit was filed on behalf of an unidentified person who complained to the ACLU about the picture".. and... "The painting has been on display at the courthouse for nearly a decade and hadn't provoked any complaints prior to the ACLU's recent objections..."

If it supposedly forces a religion on us, only one person in ten years rejected it. The pews in Slidell ought to be full!

If you are willing to put a painting of some other religious figure next to it, maybe Satan for example, than I am all for it. After all some people do worship Satan.

"...Lamz consulted Douglas Laycock, a professor at the University of Michigan Law School who has argued before the Supreme Court."

Great...the University of Michigan has recently installed foot baths for Muslims to use before they pray....at TAXPAYER expense. We really need their professors deciding THIS issue.

Politically I agree with the ACLU. PERSONALLY I could care less. I do My utmost to stay away from Court Houses if at ALL Possible. I know how to turn My head if it offends Me.

Larry

Seems kinda petty to me. But then again, the ACLU has to stay in the news. It's good for their fundraising.

If it supposedly forces a religion on us,

Please with the false argument, it doesn't force anything. Religious propaganda has no place on government property. What would Christians think if the courthouse had paintings of Marx, Stalin, Mao and Nietzsche?

Seems kinda petty to me. But then again, the ACLU has to stay in the news. It's good for their fundraising.

So are religious images.

SCH-
From the article, ""To Know Peace, Obey These Laws." The ACLU says the portrait -- an image of Jesus presenting the New Testament..."

It's not simply a painting of Christ on the Cross or of Him performing a miracle. That's part of the issue... when Biblical references are used in historical context. EX: The Ten Commandments. Our building are replete with references to God/Christ's directives. The painting isn't saying if you aren't Christian you won't get a fair shake. Rather, it's acknowledging the source of our laws... the source of everything, for that matter. If you don't believe, you aren't harmed.

I saw a photo the painting -- how would anyone know that it is Jesus or cme to believe that the book he is holding is the new testament.

Jesus' name appears nowhere on the painting, and the message in the book written in Russian Cyrillic, "judge not according to appearance but judge with righteous judgement" is not religious at all. Neither is the the message below the painting "To Know Peace, Obey These Laws."

I don't think the ACLU has a case.


If you don't believe, you aren't harmed.

Another false argument. Harm isn't an issue.

I don't think the ACLU has a case.

I disagree.

Great...the University of Michigan has recently installed foot baths for Muslims to use before they pray....

Posted by jestgettinalong


Actually, the foot baths are for anyone to use who wants clean feet.

is not religious at all. Neither is the the message below the painting "To Know Peace, Obey These Laws."

Posted by Bowa


Considering he's refering to a religious text, it is a very religious message. It seems they (the city) are saying: "Don't trust man's laws in this court, put your faith in the bible", a very religious, anti-civic statement.

Rather, it's acknowledging the source of our laws...

Posted by OohRah


So non-Christian societies don't have laws against killing and stealing? Do we have laws against adultery or eating seafood?

Our laws are based on Judeo-Christian principles, no?

I disagree.

On what basis. What "religion" is the state promoting with the painting -- there are no crosses or other identifying icons -- and the message in the book, written in Russian Cyrillic, "judge not according to appearance but judge with righteous judgement" is not religious at all. Neither is the the message below the painting "To Know Peace, Obey These Laws."

In fact, the only connection to any religion is in the paintings provenance (it's from a russian orthodox church) not in it's appearence or message.

"Actually, the foot baths are for anyone to use who wants clean feet."

Right...for all the students who get their feet dirty tramping through all that snow and slush. Right...hell, I believe that.

What do you think our little Muslim friends would do if I wanted to wash my rubber boots off in it?

Considering he's refering to a religious text, it is a very religious message

How do you know the book in the painting is religious -- the passage isn't and the book doesn't say "Bible" or "koran". And as I said before, nowhere is the figure in the painting identified as "Jesus" at all.

Ummmm Nope OohRah sorry.

Larry

Our Country is a Secular Country. The Treaty of Tripoli.

Larry

What do you think our little Muslim friends would do if I wanted to wash my rubber boots off in it?


I do believe Muslims consider infidels unclean so they wouldn't be able to use the footbaths the moment a non-muslim used them.

Bowa
The picture is shown in the article. It is immediately recognizable as Christian art. Period! The ACLU has a legitimate case.

"I do believe Muslims consider infidels unclean so they wouldn't be able to use the footbaths the moment a non-muslim used them."

Just quit using them?? No protest?? No jihad??

The picture is shown in the article. It is immediately recognizable as Christian art. Period! The ACLU has a legitimate case.

Looks like it could be Muslim Art or jewish art as well. But mostly it looks like 16th century art.

Bowa
As usual, you are kidding nobody.

Would a small sign below the painting saying, "This painting in no way endorses any specific religion and ought not be construed to imply as such," work?

Or would that discriminate against the illiterate?

What do you think our little Muslim friends would do if I wanted to wash my rubber boots off in it?

Posted by jestgettinalong


Probably the same thing you would do if you saw me washing my underwear in the sink, be disgusted.

Our laws are based on Judeo-Christian principles, no?

Posted by OohRah


No they're not. J-Cs did not invent the concept that killing and stealing is bad. And if our laws are based on J-C principles, why aren't adultery and eating seafood illegal?

Actually, I would imagine if our laws were based on Christian principles then taxes would be much higher to pay for feeding the hungry, healing the sick etc.

Hey look, I found a 16th century painting of the Virgin Mary:

www.smh.com.au

LOL

"What do you think our little Muslim friends would do if I wanted to wash my rubber boots off in it?

Posted by jestgettinalong"

(Probably the same thing you would do if you saw me washing my underwear in the sink, be disgusted.) Posted by TFDNIHILIST

As disgusted as they were with the cartoon in Denmark, do ya' think?

I was in Slidell yesterday. Had to take a friend of mine to pick up a car, just before being subjected to a hellacious thunderstorm.

If I were told I had to either live in Lousiana or leave the country, I would be on the first Luftansa flight. Not even a close call. What a squalid place. I say, let them have their Jesus picture. They don't have much else to look at.

As disgusted as they were with the cartoon in Denmark, do ya' think?

Posted by jestgettinalong


Why, what did Muslims at the University of Michigan do in that case?

What a squalid place. I say, let them have their Jesus picture. They don't have much else to look at.

Don't go into law RR.

"If I were told I had to either live in Lousiana or leave the country, I would be on the first Luftansa flight. Not even a close call. What a squalid place. I say, let them have their Jesus picture. They don't have much else to look at."

You can't really judge the entire state of LA by New Orleans and environs. Just like you can't judge the whole state of New York by NYC.


I'm out. Have a great day.

It is immediately recognizable as Christian art.

If that's the ACLU's best argument then they will lose.

Just because something looks "Christian" to some people doesn't mean that it has violated the 1st amendment....at least not yet.

Maybe the ACLU will challenge the law.

It's like one Supreme Court justice famously said about pornography. "I'll know it when I see it."

You can't really judge the entire state of LA by New Orleans and environs. Just like you can't judge the whole state of New York by NYC.


Posted by jestgettinalong
* * *

I don't. I'm all over Louisiana all the time. From miserable Venice, down by the port of S. Louisiana, up to Shreveport, and everything in between. Smells bad, sticky, humid, bugs the size of volkswagens.
I like that show on Discovery called "Oil, Sweat, and Rigs"--check it out sometime--anyway, whenever a Louisiana cajun is on, they have to put English subtitles on the bottom of the screen. The crews spend a lot of time with Eskimos, with Russians, with Arabs--all speak better English than the bastardized Franco-Pidgin-dialect spoken in the Plaquemines. In fact, more people speak better English in almost any European town, than in almost any S. Louisana town.
Hmmm. Choice between Lousiana, or the Austrian Alps. Hmmm. That's a toughie!

If the Christians can hang a picture of Christ in the courthouse, can I hang a picture of Darwin in their church?

Can I hang a picture of my GOD, Pee Wee Herman, in the courthouse? How about Ramtha? Or L. Ron Hubbard? Or David Koresh? This could get cool.

Mosques all over Dearborn, Michigan -- ACLU says that's fine. Calls to prayer blaring out of the mosques across the city many times a day -- that's fine. Muslim footbaths in schools and at public airports to accomodate their religion and all paid for by the American taxpayer -- not a peep from the ACLU.

But a picture of Christ in a courthouse lobby and the tiny cross pictured on the right side of THIS SEAL respresenting the County of Los Angeles were considered as "too religious" and "representing Christianity in a public place" end up in lawsuits by the very anti-AmericanCLU.

The tiny cross lost to the ACLU and a new crossless seal was put in its place. The tiny cross was "whited out" off of every single Los Angeles County seal/decal -- on the side of county trucks, off of every county building, every piece of county I.D. -- every seal had to have the cross wiped out.

The ACLU should change the meaning of it's letters to "Anti-Christian Liberties Union"

This country is daily losing its tradition, its culture, its history, its foundations, and its sanity.

"Mosques all over Dearborn, Michigan -- ACLU says that's fine. "

Not many Muslims or Hispanics in North Dakota, Chris. You'll fit right in.

Damn, while the ACLU is at it, they should get rid of the huge statue of Zeus in the Minneapolis Courthouse!

"Mosques all over Dearborn, Michigan -- ACLU says that's fine."

Just like the ACLU is all for church & temples.

"Calls to prayer blaring out of the mosques across the city many times a day -- that's fine."

I grew up near a Catholic Church. Bells for Daily Mass, bells for the Angelus, and Sunday bells for 6,7,8,9,10:30 & 12 Mass. The bells ringing constitute a call to prayer. Do you think the ACLU is okay with that?

Posted by BILL O_REILLY at 2007-07-04 10:33 PM | Reply

An easy test to see if this is predicial is simple. Ask a christian if they would be fine with removing all Christian references with references to statistically more peaceful religions like buddism or Islam.

If you don't have a problem with it, you are not prejustice. If you do, than you are prejustice and it must come down because people of another religion would logically feel the same way if they saw Christian references.

With respect to history, I've heard this crap all the time from hard core Christians and never heard an argument from a true historian that was not Christian. The only group "Fighting to keep it on are Christians-nobody else.

I personally do not want to tax dollars paying for anything to do with favoring one religion over another.

Our current system of laws were based on ancient Roman laws and have nothing to do with Christianity. They were based on the first laws compiled by Roman Emperor Justinian.

For some unknown reason Christians seem to feel the need to try to re-write these known and accepted facts in history. These falacies can be traced back to the Christian extremist who invented this BS in the 1960's

In my view since Christianity has no roots in our laws, no tax payer monies should be allowed to pay for it. It would be more appropriate certainly from historical purposes to reference the Roman Emporer Justinian

"Since Christianity has no roots in our laws...."

Sort of like one of those alternate earths on Star Trek?

The Romans liked to do things like dress small chilrdren up in lamb skin and send them into the arena with lions. I wonder where the concept "unfair" in relation to that practice came from?

Here we go yet again.
My work is obviously never done...

Yet more proof of what I've always said...

The Christian Right will not be satisfied
until they alter the very charter that this country was founded on. Separation of Church and State was one of the central tennents that this country was founded on. It is there, believe it or not, to ensure Religious Freedom. So that the state could not impose one religion upon it's people. Obviously the
Christian Right chooses to ignore this
little factual snippet, because they insist that this country should only be home to Bible beating Christians and no one else.

-Hey, you want to be Christian fine.
-You want to stay at church all day on Sunday, fine.
-You want to go 3 times a week, and pray to Jesus. Great. More power to you.

I've got no problem with that. I don't interfere when you go to church, and tell you, you can only go at this time, or on that day, or to this church or that.

So WHY, WHY do you INSIST on trying to make the rest of us see the WORLD as you do...because, believe it or not, some of us just DONT WANT TO...

Some of us actually came to America for that little thing called INDEPENDANCE...
(happy 4th of July)

end rant...

So that the state could not impose one religion upon it's people. Obviously the
Christian Right chooses to ignore this...


Can you tell me how a painting of Jesus in a courthouse 99% of the American population will never go to is imposing a religion on any American Citizen?

Earth-
Conversely, is that painting (or Christians in general) telling you "when you go to church, and tell you, you can only go at this time, or on that day, or to this church or that?"

Therein lies a good bit of the issue. The founders never intended for God to be removed from the public square. To the contrary. Where they drew the line was in context to how the Church of England influenced their lives overseas. They were opposed to paying taxes to the church or to tying citizenship status/voting privileges to one's membership within a specific (or any church at all) church.

This isn't discussed much so I'll bring it up. It seems that typically when trying to see whether a law is valid/necessary or not is whether anyone is harmed or burdened in any meaningful way... whether it's an individual or the collective "state" that's being harmed. Is it possible to show harm being inflicted in this case?

You mean, I have the power to make you see things as I do? My goodness, why aren't I rich?

I and we have no power over you until such time as you stop substituting comedy routines from people such as Bill Maher and Chris Hitchens as serious thought in regards to the nature of religion.

Don't get me wrong. I actually paid to see Maher last year. However, his concept of what makes a "nice" person didn't come from the irreligous.

The people that really embrace his ideas are waiting in the alley to steal his wallet after beating him up. Smiling, by the way.

Rob,

It's the Principle of the thing.
Allowing it in one Courthouse
sets a precedent, as you well know,
for allowing it in any other courthouse.

This was just tried a couple of years ago
with that judge in the south publically
displaying the Ten Commandments in
the front hall of the courthouse, in clear violation not allowing such a thing
on Federal premesis. The Supreme Court,
in its wisdom, told the Judge that the
Commandments would have to go, and that they could not be publically displayed in a Federal Courthouse, for that would show
a favor in religion by the State, and would be deemed discriminatory.

See (Mercer County display of Ten Commandments ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court)April 25, 2006...

Now many in the south would like to ignore this ruling...as they probably would many other court rulings...but just the same, the ruling was made, and stands as the law of the land.

Just reverse your argument for an answer.
If you were Christian (as I assume you are), and in every courthouse in America,
you walked into had a portrait of Muhammed, and a copy of the Koran in the courthouse roundelay, would you feel sort of discriminated against...perhaps, a 2nd class citizen?

Sorry...Mohammed or Muhammad...the older I get, the more my spelling sucks...

Earth-
I think (with very rare exceptions) religious references have been to God, or a Creator, or Divine Being, etc. It hasn't singled out Christ or Mohammed or others like that. Your thoughts?

So what your saying OOHRAH is that you
feel threatened by other religions?

If not, then what do you mind if other
religions are practiced in this country?

If you don't mind other religions being
practiced in this country, then why the
insistence that one and only one religion
get to show off their deity in a Federal
Courthouse?

Once again, to reitterate, the law is there to Protect the People. That's why people left Europe and came to America in the first place, something about the "lack of religious freedom" in Europe.
That's why such protections were placed--wisely, I may add--into our own Constitution, so that this sort of thing would not happen again on American soil.

And now you want to tell me, that those Founding Fathers were wrong? That it would be better to go back to the ways of
the European continent that our Forefather's left?

Read your History, then get back to me...

I have a question for all the liberals here (well for everyone I guess). How do you feel about depections of Lady Justice in our public courthouses? You know she's a Roman Goddess right? And in just about every courthouse in the country. Should the ACLU be sueing to remove those as well?


I have a question for all the liberals here (well for everyone I guess). How do you feel about depections of Lady Justice in our public courthouses? You know she's a Roman Goddess right? And in just about every courthouse in the country. Should the ACLU be sueing to remove those as well?

Posted by bluefacetwp at 2007-07-05 09:34 AM | Reply

Hey as long as She gives up the Nookie that's all I care about. She is supposed to be Blind so that will help Me out greatly.

Larry

Earth-
You haven't addressed my points. Take a look back... I'd be interested in your perspective.

845AM post: church taxes, voting/citizenshp status determined by church affiliation.

856AM post: demonstrable burden or harm?

9:30AM post: Most all references are to a God, a Creator... and not to specifics like Christ or Mohammed.

Bottles?

I remember Ashcroft's curtain.

fstdt.com

It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the ACLU filling its pockets with taxpayer money. Some ACLU judge will find in favor to the ACLU and award them a couple of million! It is legal robbery.

Should the ACLU be sueing to remove those as well?

Posted by bluefacetwp


If its not Christian its okay...

Evangelical Christians cost the Democrats the last presidential election, so they are now Liberal Enemy #1.

Liberals will say its about keeping religion and state seperately but when have you ever seen a democrat or liberal bash Islam with the same furvor and nastiness that they attack Christianity? Ho

"...Lamz consulted Douglas Laycock, a professor at the University of Michigan Law School who has argued before the Supreme Court."

Great...the University of Michigan has recently installed foot baths for Muslims to use before they pray....at TAXPAYER expense. We really need their professors deciding THIS issue.

Posted by jestgettinalong




Uhhh, the guy from the U of Michigan is arguing in favor of the painting; learn how to read.

It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the ACLU filling its pockets with taxpayer money. Some ACLU judge will find in favor to the ACLU and award them a couple of million! It is legal robbery.

Posted by Burt


The ACLU is suing to have the painting removed. Where are they getting millions of dollars? Are you really this dumb?

FF for Larry, and the image of him dry-humping (I hope) a statue on the courthouse steps.


FF for Larry, and the image of him dry-humping (I hope) a statue on the courthouse steps.

Posted by rightisright at 2007-07-05 10:08 AM | Reply

It would be Dry Humping cause if You used ANY kind of Lube You would slide off and fall flat on Your face.

Larry

INDEPENDANCE...

Posted by earthmuse at 2007-07-05 08:33 AM | Reply

Is that at all like the Macarena?

Earthmuse: Your comment "Mercer County display of Ten Commandments ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court) April 25, 2006." is 100% factually untrue.

In fact, the Mercer County display was ruled to be constitutional and the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals refused to rehear the case and verdict upheld.
jurist.law.pitt.edu

The SCOTUS has never ruled on the Mercer case.

In the decision which ruled the Mercer Ten Commandments constitutional, "(Judge) Suhrheinrich pointedly wrote about what he described as the ACLU's flawed arguments.

He called "the separation of church and state," which the ACLU referred to repeatedly, an "extra-constitutional construct [that] has grown tiresome. The First Amendment does not demand a wall of separation between church and state. ... Our nation's history is replete with governmental acknowledgment and[,] in some cases, accommodation of religion ... . Thus, state recognition of religion that falls short of endorsement is constitutionally permissible."

"If the reasonable observer perceived all government references to the Deity as endorsements, then many of our nation's cherished traditions would be unconstitutional, including the Declaration of Independence and the national motto ["In God we trust"]," Suhrheinrich wrote.

The ACLU "does not embody the reasonable person," he said."


erlc.com

All you need to do is start a religion that has kissing males as a tenet of the faith.

Then, you cry separation of Church and State and you resolve the whole issue.

Do the same with abortion - make it a rite of passage in the religion and a major teaching of the faith - whammo, Church and State.

This may sound sacriligious but instead of wafers, hand out condoms. Now, when the school does it, they are promoting the religion.

We place Bill Clinton's picture up as our patron saint of BJs.

We'll place Bush's picture up as our patron saint of 'it's just a piece of paper'.

Just mentioning his name in a public place will violate church and state.

Then, ACLU can argue Clinton/Bush promotes my religion.

This is soooo easy.

The Separation of Church and State should really reflect a true attempt to influence. If a lousy picture is all it takes, we should have pictures of people dying from illegal drugs everywhere, a picture of people paying their tax timely, a picture of loving parents and obedient kids -

All it takes is a picture.

I simply don't see the point in putting a picture like that up in a public building - you're just inviting litigation. Why do you need a picture of Jesus in the courhouse? What purpose does that serve? What does the picture do other than make people who aren't Christians feel like outsiders?

I simply don't see the point in putting a picture like that up in a public building

Joe, You mean you don't see the point in putting up 16th Century Byzantine art that expresses universal (non-religious) ideals about the law and justice in a courthouse?

Not my cup of tea, way too stodgy -- but certainly reasonable and legal to put up.


Just mentioning his name in a public place will violate church and state.
Then, ACLU can argue Clinton/Bush promotes my religion. This is soooo easy.



petrous, thanks for your ingeniuous and funny post which exemplifies the comment the judge made in the mercer county case in which he "pointedly wrote about what he described as the ACLU's flawed arguments.

He called "the separation of church and state," which the ACLU referred to repeatedly, an "extra-constitutional construct [that] has grown tiresome. The First Amendment does not demand a wall of separation between church and state. ... Our nation's history is replete with governmental acknowledgment and[,] in some cases, accommodation of religion ... . Thus, state recognition of religion that falls short of endorsement is constitutionally permissible."

"If the reasonable observer perceived all government references to the Deity as endorsements, then many of our nation's cherished traditions would be unconstitutional, including the Declaration of Independence and the national motto ["In God we trust"]," Suhrheinrich wrote.

The ACLU "does not embody the reasonable person," he said."

let's just ban symbolism and art altogether. after all, we wouldn't want anyone to "feel like outsiders" now would we?

Why do you need a picture of Jesus in the courhouse?

Who does it honestly hurt to have it up?

The bill of rights says: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

So, how does a picture of Jesus, or Moses, or Mohammed (oh wait, don't do that, the religion of peace will cut your head off) equate to making a law that respects or prohibits a religion?


let's just ban symbolism and art altogether.

Posted by handsome_rob


Good point, why can't a picture of Jesus just be a work of art? Why does it have to mean, "Everyone be a Christian?"

"You mean you don't see the point in putting up 16th Century Byzantine art that expresses universal (non-religious) ideals about the law and justice in a courthouse?"

Why do you strain to characterize the painting as something other than it is? Admit that it's a picture of Jesus and we can move on from there. Pretending it's a non-denominational piece of artwork like a picture of a tree is just stupid, so give it up.

certainly reasonable and legal to put up

What makes you so "certain?" The law in this area is anything but concrete, there's no certainty that this will be upheld.

"universal (non-religious) ideals "

You've hit on the real problem: there are those who actually view a picture of a halo-ed Jesus holding the New Testament as "universal" and "non-religious".

The people that really embrace his ideas are waiting in the alley to steal his wallet after beating him up. Smiling, by the way.


Posted by Zed


I suppose you didn't know Mahler is Jewish?

"Who does it honestly hurt to have it up?"

Those who pay their tax dollars, yet don't believe that way. A mirror version of the type of folks who are pissed about Mosques in Dearborn.

Would you want your tax dollars spent on footbaths everywhere for Muslims?

Rob-

"Who does it honestly hurt to have it up?"

That doesn't answer my question. I asked what the purpose of putting up a picture of Jesus is. There are millions of pictures you could choose to put up, and out of all of them, someone decided to put one up of Jesus - why? What is the purpose?

"how does a picture of Jesus, or Moses, or Mohammed equate to making a law that respects or prohibits a religion?"

It doesn't equate to that, but that hasn't stopped our courts from using Establishment Clause jurisprudence to rule on challenges to anything that is seen as a governmental endorsement of religion. If you weren't aware of that then you have some reading to do.

I'm still waiting for an answer as to what the purpose of putting a picture of Jesus up in the courthouse is.

Evangelical Christians cost the Democrats the last presidential election, so they are now Liberal Enemy #1.


Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

err...rove via:


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Scientific Report Finds 'Serious Security Vulnerability' Similar to 'Princeton Diebold Virus Hack' in Widely Used iVotronic System, Allowing a Single Person to Change Election Results Across Entire County Without Detection
Posted Apr 18, 2007 10:28 PM PST
Category: VOTE FRAUD
www.bradblog.com



from now defunct yahoo chat room

Experts See New Diebold Flaw...
by: Bani 05/12/06 06:54 pm
Msg: 28773 of 28773

www.baltimoresun.com tory?coll=bal-local-headlines
Experts see new Diebold flaw
The new problem is being described as an intentional hole left in the system to allow elections workers to update voting software easily. Instead of using pass codes or other security protocols, anyone with access to a voting machine could install new software that could easily disable a precinct full of machines, Rubin said.
Posted May 12, 2006 08:15 AM PST
Category: VOTE FRAUD

... or change the results.
This is the "Interpreter" built into the system, a piece of software with no legitimate use in the voting process, but which makes it easy to sneak new software into an already certified voting machine by placing a file of code onto the memory cards used to collect votes


www.teambio.org
Eyeballing Voter Fraud In Ohio
Forget the hanging chad syndrome, how about thousands of ballots submitted that only voted for Bush or had no identifiable markings on them that indicated what precinct the ballot originated from. This would have allowed votes to be shuffled from precinct to precinct depending on where the Bush votes were needed to beat Kerry.
Posted Apr 26, 2006 11:16 AM PST
Category: VOTE FRAUD

www.rawstory.com
77 TV stations aired 'fake news reports'
A study by a group that monitors the media reveals that, over a ten month span, 77 television stations from all across the nation aired video news releases without informing their viewers even once that the reports were actually sponsored content, RAW STORY has found.
Posted Apr 6, 2006 09:23 AM PST
Category: MAINSTREAM MEDIA


And remember: these were only the 77 statiions which got caught for this practice. There are no FCC laws stating that what the talking heads on television or radio are obliged to tell you the truth.

more...

Caught in the middle of the drama were more than 175,000 voters whose ballots were rejected -- a huge number considering that Bush was eventually certified a winner by 537 votes.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

I'm still waiting for an answer as to what the purpose of putting a picture of Jesus up in the courthouse is.

Posted by JOE


Maybe it is just a beautiful painting, a nice work of art, not intended to endorse any religion, but just to make a hallway look nicer.

There are millions of pictures you could choose to put up, and out of all of them, someone decided to put one up of Jesus - why? What is the purpose?


Maybe, because the vast majority of this country is Christian? maybe because it was a nice picture, and the person putting it up didn't think people would piss themselves over a small picture in a courthouse 99% of this country will never see in their entire lives.

"Maybe it is just a beautiful painting, a nice work of art, not intended to endorse any religion, but just to make a hallway look nicer."

Right Rob. Of all the millions of pictures they could have chosen, they happened to land on one that just happens to be religious in nature. Weird, huh?

"Maybe, because the vast majority of this country is Christian?"

That has never been a valid defense to governmental endorsements of religion. Who cares if the majority of Americans are Christians? There are still millions that aren't, who shouldn't have to buy your courthouse a Jesus painting.

Maybe, because the vast majority of this country is Christian? maybe because it was a nice picture, and the person putting it up didn't think people would piss themselves over a small picture in a courthouse 99% of this country will never see in their entire lives.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

maybe because everyday Jesus saves Robby from his daily disinformation tactics?:>)


MOCKINGBIRD - The Subversion Of The Free Press By The CIA

In the 1950s, outlays for global propaganda climbed to a full third of
the CIA's covert operations budget. Some 3, 000 salaried and contract
CIA employees were eventually engaged in propaganda efforts. The cost
of disinforming the world cost American taxpayers an estimated $265
million a year by 1978, a budget larger than the combined expenditures
of Reuters, UPI and the AP news syndicates.

In 1977, the Copely News Service admitted that it worked closely with
the intelligence services - in fact, 23 employees were full-time
employees of the Agency.

www.whatreallyhappened.com

my religion believes that the bear is a sacred animal. i'm offended by the california state flag. it makes me feel like an "outsider". i pay taxes. california should change their flag.

"99% of this country will never see in their entire lives."

That's a pretty stupid argument. Just because most people aren't affected by a Constitutional violation doesn't mean that it is not a Constitutional violation. If one person is affected by it, then they can and should bring suit.

Who does it honestly hurt to have it up?

The bill of rights says: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

So, how does a picture of Jesus, or Moses, or Mohammed (oh wait, don't do that, the religion of peace will cut your head off) equate to making a law that respects or prohibits a religion?

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2007-07-05 10:57 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Would You want Your tax dollars to pay for a naked Statue of Me and put it in a Courthouse??

Larry

That has never been a valid defense to governmental endorsements of religion.

Anyone that believes a small picture of Jesus, in a small courthouse in a small state is a governmental endorsement of religion is just being silly.

Would You want Your tax dollars to pay for a naked Statue of Me and put it in a Courthouse??

Larry


Is that you Zeus in the Minneapolis Courthouse?

That's a pretty stupid argument. Just because most people aren't affected by a Constitutional violation doesn't mean that it is not a Constitutional violation. If one person is affected by it, then they can and should bring suit.

Posted by JOE


I wish I lived in a time when this country wasn't full of pussies who felt the need to run off to Jim "The Hammer" Shapiro everytime they were offended by the slightest thing.

A picture of Jesus doesn't offend anyone... it doesn't endorse religion... and it sure as shit is not a drain on your tax dollars. Its just a picture...

If one person is affected by it, then they can and should bring suit.

god forbid someone should be affected.

oh, my apologies, i didn't mean to use the word "god." i hope no one was offended! pleeeease forgive me!

Here's adorable photographic proof that man and dinosaurs walked the Earth together.

www.boingboing.net

"it doesn't endorse religion"

Says who? What does it endorse? What does it mean when governmental officials choose from millions of paintings one of Jesus? Is there no meaning to that selection?

Does Jesus have some legal significance that I'm not aware of? Was he a lawgiver like Moses? Is there anything about Jesus that represents something secular?

Bani no I am the White Fat Buddha.

Larry

Says who? What does it endorse?

Nothing!!! Its a fucking picture!

Was he a lawgiver like Moses?

Turn the other cheek, do unto others, love thy neighbor, he who has not sinned cast the first stone...

oh, my apologies, i didn't mean to use the word "god." i hope no one was offended!

You didn't capitalize the "g" in God. I am highly offended. By doing so you endorsed a polytheism... I've crapped myself with rage... calling the ACLU now.

"Anyone that believes a small picture of Jesus, in a small courthouse in a small state is a governmental endorsement of religion is just being silly."

Why all the references to the courthouse and town being small? Nobody has ever said that the entire US Government had to be endorsing religion before something could be considered an endorsement. The Establishment Clause applies to states (no matter how small), cities, villages, municipalities of 100 people, etc.

Turn the other cheek, do unto others, love thy neighbor, he who has not sinned cast the first stone...

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

Then keep sinning for Jesus will save you anyway:>)



Republican presidential candidate Gary Bauer criticized Gov. George W. Bush Tuesday for making fun of an executed Texas woman in an interview Bush gave to Talk magazine.
"I think it is nothing short of unbelievable that the governor of a major state running for president thought it was acceptable to mock a woman he decided to put to death," Bauer said of Bush.

Bush is portrayed in Talk as ridiculing pickax killer Karla Faye Tucker of Houston for an interview she did with CNN broadcaster Larry King shortly before she was executed last year. Just before her execution date, Tucker appealed for clemency on the grounds that she had become a born-again Christian.

" `Please,' Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, `don't kill me,' "

www.google.com:80

What does it mean when governmental officials choose from millions of paintings one of Jesus?

It means some secratary probably put it up one day because she is spriritual, and nobody took it down, because they aren't pussies... then one day, someone who's mother didn't hug him enough, or hugged him too much, saw the picture and decided to make a federal case out of it, because he is desperately strarved for attention and he will take it in any way he can.

"Nothing!!! Its a fucking picture!"

Okay Rob. If you're willing to believe that when a governmental entity has the ability to put up one of millions of pictures, and they happen to choose one of Jesus over all others, that this is merely a coincidence and does not mean anything, then I think you're being naive. You're entitled to play dumb if it makes you feel better about having a picture of Jesus in the courthouse.

I'd like to add that I don't see a picture of Jesus as a big deal, because when I don't like something I just choose not to look at it. However, just because I don't think it's a big deal doesn't mean it is in compliance with the law.

Seems like a picture of Jesus hurts Liberals as much as two homosexuals marrying hurts conservatives.

"It means some secratary probably put it up one day because she is spriritual"

Should our tax dollars be funding someone's spirituality? Don't give me any crap about how the picture probably didn't cost that much, etc - I don't care. If it costs a dollar to fund someone else's spirituality I want no part of it.

Why all the references to the courthouse and town being small?

You forgot the picture being small too...

Because it doesn't hurt, effect or offend anyone. It really doesn't, there is not one person in America, who is honestly offended by this picture. I state with 100% certainty that it is impossible for any human being to be offended or truly upset by this.

Its a desperate cry for attention from some loser. that's all.

you are right about all the establishment clauses and shit, but this to me, and to any reasonable person should be treated like those old laws on the books like in main you have to bring a rifle to church to ward off Indian attacks...

Hey, you will love this Bowa:>)


How a 'gay rights' leader became straight

------------------------------
------------------------------
--------------------
Posted: July 3, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Editor's note: See the news story about Michael Glatze in today's WND, titled "'Gay'-rights leader quits homosexuality."

www.worldnetdaily.com


"I was repulsive for quite some time; I am still dealing with all of my guilt.

As a leader in the "gay rights" movement, I was given the opportunity to address the public many times. If I could take back some of the things I said, I would. Now I know that homosexuality is lust and pornography wrapped into one. I'll never let anybody try to convince me otherwise, no matter how slick their tongues or how sad their story. I have seen it. I know the truth.

God gave us truth for a reason. It exists so we could be ourselves. It exists so we could share that perfect self with the world, to make the perfect world. These are not fanciful schemes or strange ideals these are the Truth.

Healing from the sins of the world will not happen in an instant; but, it will happen if we don't pridefully block it. God wins in the end, in case you didn't know. "

If it costs a dollar to fund someone else's spirituality I want no part of it.


Do you call the cops to shut down a loud party going on next door to you, that you weren't invited to?

"Turn the other cheek..."

Not a law

"...do unto others..."

Not a law

"...love thy neighbor..."

Not a law

"...he who has not sinned cast the first stone..."

Not a law.

So, by posting "To Know Peace, Obey These Laws", it's a clear and direct violation.

"I state with 100% certainty that it is impossible for any human being to be offended or truly upset by this."

But the purpose of the Establishment Clause isn't to make sure people aren't offended. It's to make sure the government doesn't become entangled with any religion. While a picture of Jesus isn't as much of an entanglement as mandatory prayer at public schools, I still don't see a need for even the most minor religious references in government buildings. If the only answer you have to the question of what the purpose of this picture is is that it "doesn't offend anyone," that isn't really such a great reason for taking any action at all.

The ACLU sued after the Slidell City Court refused to voluntarily remove the picture and a message below it that reads: "To Know Peace, Obey These Laws."

See Joe, the picture has a statement on it about obeying the law. That's probably why it was put up...

Zeus was my religion in a past life...


Reincarnation history in Christiantiy

www.near-death.com

"I state with 100% certainty that it is impossible for any human being to be offended or truly upset by this."

Rob clocks in with his usual accuracy.

"the picture has a statement on it about obeying the law."

No it doesn't. The article says "the picture and a message below it." The picture itself is just Jesus facing you and holding an open Bible. Read the article before you spout lies.

It's to make sure the government doesn't become entangled with any religion.

In all 100% honesty, swearing on whatever you hold dear to you, you can say that this 1 picture, in this 1 courthouse will get the Federal government entangled with a religion?

If the only answer you have to the question of what the purpose of this picture is

Southern states are very open and up front about their Christianity, and this particular picture had a caption about obeying the law. If it were a predominately Jewish town and they wanted quotes from the Torah everywhere I wouldn't have a problem with that.

I would be if you polled the people of this town they would be overwhelmingly in favor of the picture being allowed to stay...

What makes you so "certain?"

Because there is nothing in the painting that specifically says the figure is "Jesus" or promoting Christianity -- ( a cross for example, or the words "New Testament" on the book the figure is holding. There is also no mention of the provenance of the artwork either on the painting or anywhere near it.

Neither the passage in the book written in Russian Cyrillic, "judge not according to appearance but judge with righteous judgement" or the message on the wall below the painting "To Know Peace, Obey These Laws." is religious in nature and expresses universal ideals.

That the painting may appear religious to some people (because of the halo, or the Byzantine look) certianly does not not constitute the "establishment" of a specific religion by "the state" and there fore does not conflict with the 1st amendement.

That's why the ACLU will lose if they bring the case to court.

What makes you so "certain?"

Because there is nothing in the painting that specifically says the figure is "Jesus" or promoting Christianity -- ( a cross for example, or the words "New Testament" on the book the figure is holding. There is also no mention of the provenance of the artwork either on the painting or anywhere near it.

Neither the passage in the book written in Russian Cyrillic, "judge not according to appearance but judge with righteous judgement" or the message on the wall below the painting "To Know Peace, Obey These Laws." is religious in nature and in fact expresses universal ideals.

That the painting may appear religious to some people (because of the halo, or the Byzantine look) certianly does not not constitute the "establishment" of a specific religion by "the state" and there fore does not conflict with the 1st amendement.

That's why the ACLU will lose if they bring the case to court.

Read the article before you spout lies.

Posted by JOE


The way I read it, it seemed like the caption was on the painting, especially since there is nothing beneath the picture in the story.

the picture and message below it were obviously intended to be taken as one.

if one dollar of my tax money is spent in defending a suit like this, i want no part in it.

The painting has been on display at the courthouse for nearly a decade and hadn't provoked any complaints prior to the ACLU's recent objections

Why now Joe? its been ten fucking years, and it hasn't upset anyone...

My guess is that some scumbag piece of shit lawyer is just trying to make a name for himself, but I still wouldn't be surprised if it were just some lonely douchebag looking for attention.

The picture itself is just Jesus facing you and holding an open Bible. Read the article before you spout lies.

You are assuming it is a bible Joe. It does not say Bible or "new Testament" and the the passage in the book is non-religious and written in Russian Cyrillic. It says, "judge not according to appearance but judge with righteous judgement"
www.wwltv.com

I would be if you polled the people of this town they would be overwhelmingly in favor of the picture being allowed to stay...

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

and majority rules!


"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
-- Hermann Goering, Nuremberg

What the fuck does Hermann Goering and his quote about starting wars have to do with a picture of Jesus in a Louisiana courthouse?

That is the strangest violation of Godwin's Law I have ever seen...

It says, "judge not according to appearance but judge with righteous judgement" www.wwltv.com

Posted by Bowa


Thanks for that Bowa... I was curious what was written on the pages...

Seems like a decent thing to have in a courthouse right Joe?

"can say that this 1 picture, in this 1 courthouse will get the Federal government entangled with a religion?"

Once again, it does not have to be "the federal government." The Constitution applies to local and state governmental entities - if the village of bumblefuck is involved in any entanglement with religion, it is a violation of the Constitution. And like I said before, I don't see this as a heavy entanglement, but it's more of an entanglement with religion than not putting up the picture would be.

"I would be if you polled the people of this town they would be overwhelmingly in favor of the picture being allowed to stay..."

Who cares? Are they a village full of Constitutional scholars? Do they know what is and is not a violation of the Establishment Clause? Why should a poll of a bunch of people unfamiliar with the law have any bearing on how the law should be applied?

I notice that Joe is carefully ignoring my argument as to why the ACLU will lose in Court.

Bowa-

"there is nothing in the painting that specifically says the figure is "Jesus"

That doesn't matter. The fact is that it IS a picture of Jesus. Just because he doesn't have a t-shirt on in the painting that says "I am Jesus!" doesn't make it any less of a painting of Jesus. The fact that you would stoop to such an intellectual low to support your argument shows how retarded your point really is.

Nobody, even the defendants, is denying that the painting is a picture of Jesus. Only you are idiotically denying that it is religious in nature.

Why should a poll of a bunch of people unfamiliar with the law have any bearing on how the law should be applied?

Posted by JOE


Its their town, its their lives... why should San Fransisco Liberals tell them how to live, in regards to one stupid picture in a courthouse none of them will ever be in? Its been there for 10 years without a complaint, that proves it hasn't hurt or offended anyone. Someone is just trying to make a name for themselves by bringing this up.

"I state with 100% certainty that it is impossible for any human being to be offended or truly upset by this."

Are you saying Atheists and Liberals aren't human beings Rob?

LOL

Bowa - I responded to you three minutes after responding to Rob, and Rob posted first. There's no need to pretend like I would have a need to run away from your lame argument.


What the fuck does Hermann Goering and his quote about starting wars have to do with a picture of Jesus in a Louisiana courthouse?


That is the strangest violation of Godwin's Law I have ever seen...

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

Democracy rules...see "12 Angry Men"?


en.wikipedia.org

Nobody, even the defendants, is denying that the painting is a picture of Jesus.

What about what the book says about issuing judgements, combined with the writing below about following the law? Taking that into account couldn't the painting be seen as an endorsement of law and not an endorsement of religion?

Seems like a picture of Jesus hurts Liberals as much as two homosexuals marrying hurts conservatives.

Posted by Bowa


Jesus was a 'liberal' if you want to place labels.

Come on, you're capable of posting more thoughtful posts than that ridiculous and inflammatory statement.

Are you saying Atheists and Liberals aren't human beings Rob?

LOL

Posted by Bowa


Even if they are... the jury is still out... there is no way they are offended or in any way, shape of form effected by this picture.

"Its their town, its their lives"

I see. And if anyone in a town full of people comfortable violating the Constitution feels like living by our founding document, well that's just too bad - the majority of people in this town are fine with it. If the majority of people in a town want segregated schools, should we allow that? Why let San Francisco liberals tell them that black kids and white kids should grow up together? If a town is comfortable violating the Constitution, who are we to tell them otherwise?

"Someone is just trying to make a name for themselves by bringing this up."

That's your opinion. Maybe the "someone" you speak of has a desire to uphold our Constitution, he could be the biggest patriot around.

"It says, "judge not according to appearance but judge with righteous judgement"
posted by Bowwa

From The Bible.

John 7:24

That's about as universal and non-religious as one can get, eh?

"my argument as to why the ACLU will lose in Court"

You've offered no argument that pertains to the standards our courts use to rule on these challenges. The only thing you've done is denied that the picture is religious in nature, an argument that most likely won't even be offered by the people in the real case.

Just because he doesn't have a t-shirt on in the painting that says "I am Jesus!" doesn't make it any less of a painting of Jesus.

The Court would disagree Joe. The court wouldn't need a "t-shirt" to make the Jesus connection but it would have to include a readily apparent icon or image such as a "cross" or "manger" scene or the words "new testament" on the book for there to even be a chance for the ACLU to get a favorable ruling on a 1st amendemnt violation.

The fact that you would stoop to such an intellectual low to support your argument shows how retarded your point really is.

Actually, my point and the reasoning for it has been upheld in court challenges all across this nation -- including in the Mercer decison I mentioned before

If a town is comfortable violating the Constitution, who are we to tell them otherwise?


Comparing putting up a small picture of Jesus with words about obeying the law, and racial inequality is just stupid.

This picture has been up for 10 years. Nobody has cared about it until now, it wasn't hurting anyone, it wasn't offending anyone, it was doing anything but hanging on a wall. Acting like this is such a constitutional crises is just that... an act.

"Actually, the foot baths are for anyone to use who wants clean feet."
--TFDNIHILIST


Figures that this dipshit would make excuses and defend Muslims having their religion promoted by our government but cries like a baby over a painting of someone resembling Jesus in a federal building.

At least be consistent. If all references to "religion" should be banned from the public square then ban all of them, not just the Christian ones.


Thanks for the reference, Herr Saint Robby:>)

"Godwin's Law"

en.wikipedia.org's_law

"The reason we are all suffering is because of how voting is handled in the US.

ACLU many years ago filed suit to change the way elections were done.

In the early days, the Founding Fathers were determined to allow their creator to choose among them who should be their representatives.

So, in the original draft of the Constitution, they were going to draw lots to see who would be President, VP, Senators and Reps, etc.

All offices would be determined by lot.
ACLU heard of the effort and filed suit against the Founding Fathers claiming the violation of Church and State doctrine -lots were used to choose the apostles and this was a direct correlation to the Bible.

Therefore, the Founding Fathers found it necessary to allow for the people to vote using ballots - which was the way the Romans chose to elect members, which was handed down through the Temple of Athena.

So, in the US, we vote according to the Theology of Athena, Roman Goddess, instead of by lot which pre-dated even the Apostles.

That is also why there are Roman/Greek gods and goddesses abounding in the US and its courts. The Illuminati knew their gods would be worshipped if you gave ACLU enough of a carrot to pursue."
- Senor I. Mintiendo

You've offered no argument that pertains to the standards our courts use to rule on these challenges.

I have.

And I have also told you what the standard is for these challenges -- there must be some readily apparent image or words that link the 'art" to a specific religion.

That's not present in this case.

Even if the figure is Jesus -- that is not readily apparent from the image itself -- and it cannot be deciphered from anything in the painting or immediately around it.

Can't it just be a piece of art? Many works commonly called masterpieces are of religious characters. I don't know how the ACLU asks people to fork over donations when they waste time and money on trivial bullshit like this.

First knowledge: There have been other lawyers who have requested that the picture be removed but requests were obviously denied. This has been brewing for a while now.

Rumor is the city is going to cave as officials realize it is a constitutional violation.

Very busy, back to work. Just thought I would give you the local news regarding this.

Bowa,

The quote is from John, in the New Testament. Chapter 7, Verse 24.

Please admit you were incorrect, and the book is INDEED The Bible.

Or minimally the NT

"The court wouldn't need a "t-shirt" to make the Jesus connection but it would have to include a readily apparent icon or image such as a "cross" or "manger" scene or the words "new testament" on the book for there to even be a chance for the ACLU to get a favorable ruling on a 1st amendemnt violation."

Says who? Is there case law that supports that position? I've thoroughly read up on Establishment Clause jurisprudence and have never heard of anyone using that standard.

Do we know the title of the painting? And once again, does anyone plan on denying that the picture itself is religious in nature?

Can't it just be a piece of art?

Apparently not... Seems its only meaning is, "You must convert to Christianity to be an American citizen."

Rob-

"Comparing putting up a small picture of Jesus with words about obeying the law, and racial inequality is just stupid."

The idea is the same - you feel as though as long as a town is comfortable violating the Constitution that they should be allowed to do so. Does that principle extend to all Constitutional violations or only this one?

And once again, does anyone plan on denying that the picture itself is religious in nature?

It is a picture of Jesus, and therefore is based in religion, but it speaks of judgements and the words underneath speak of obeying the law. It was put up, not to say you must convert to Catholicism, but simply as a message about the law. If it were put up as a message about Christianity, it would have had a passage about accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior will grant you eternal life.

Apparently not... Seems its only meaning is, "You must convert to Christianity to be an American citizen."


Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

unless you are from Israel, then you can have a double citizenship...What a deal!:>)

"It was put up, not to say you must convert to Catholicism, but simply as a message about the law"

Those are two extremes, and the picture falls somewhere in between. Nobody's saying that the picture makes you feel like you need to convert, and that isn't the standard for when something becomes a violation of the Constitution. At the same time, a "message about the law" by no means needs to have Jesus in it. If you or the city of Slidell believes otherwise then you are both confused.

"I don't know how the ACLU asks people to fork over donations when they waste time and money on trivial bullshit like this."

It's because they have to have a reason to exist. They have to seek out "trivial bullshit" in order to justify it. Things must not be TOO bad with civil liberties if they have to jump on this stuff.

A local priest Friday identified the image as a 16th century Russian Orthodox icon called "Christ the Savior," most likely a reprint and not an original. In the picture, Jesus is shown holding open a book to display two pages, each with a biblical quotation about judging correctly and wisely. The quotations are written in Russian.

A Web search shows that the image also is known as "Christ the Ruler" or "Christ Almighty" and derives from one of the oldest known portraits of Christ.
blog.nola.com



Sorry, Bowa, just because some people might not know it is a picture of Jesus does not make it not a picture of Jesus.

you feel as though as long as a town is comfortable violating the Constitution that they should be allowed to do so.

You see it as this massive violation of the Constitution.

To me and I'm betting a large percentage of the country, the Amendment saying "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is not violated by a picture in a courthouse...

Now if the Federal gov't or a state or a city or even a school district, tried to pass a law saying the official religion of this [insert whatever here] is now and forever Roman Catholicism, I would be right there with you screaming for it to be stricken from the record and the people who passed it removed from power... but come on!!! This is just a picture... it does not establish an official religion, it is not a slippery slope (considering its been there for 10 fucking years)... its just a picture. I highly doubt a small picture of Jesus is what the founders were worried about when they wrote the first amendment.

Lokisfur must have forgot about Judge Roy Moore being ordered to remove the 10 commandments in that Alabama Courthouse. or that other one in Texas I do believe. You could have the 10 commandments on the OUTSIDE of the CourtHouse on the grounds but You could not have the 10 commandments INSIDE of the CourtHouse. ACLU Will Win when this goes to Court. Mark My words.

Larry

Sorry, Bowa, just because some people might not know it is a picture of Jesus does not make it not a picture of Jesus.


Thanks for proving my point Joe. You needed to provide secondary sources to show that the painting is of Jesus. You could not do it by looking at the painting itself.

And if people cannot tell it is Jesus just by looking at it, then it doesn't violate the 1st amendment.

Which is why the ACLU will lose in court.


"The reason we are all suffering is because of how voting is handled in the US.

ACLU many years ago filed suit to change the way elections were done.

In the early days, the Founding Fathers were determined to allow their creator to choose among them who should be their representatives.

So, in the original draft of the Constitution, they were going to draw lots to see who would be President, VP, Senators and Reps, etc.

All offices would be determined by lot.
ACLU heard of the effort and filed suit against the Founding Fathers claiming the violation of Church and State doctrine -lots were used to choose the apostles and this was a direct correlation to the Bible.

Therefore, the Founding Fathers found it necessary to allow for the people to vote using ballots - which was the way the Romans chose to elect members, which was handed down through the Temple of Athena.

So, in the US, we vote according to the Theology of Athena, Roman Goddess, instead of by lot which pre-dated even the Apostles.

That is also why there are Roman/Greek gods and goddesses abounding in the US and its courts. The Illuminati knew their gods would be worshipped if you gave ACLU enough of a carrot to pursue."
- Senor I. Mintiendo

Posted by Petrous




ummm....does this have anything to do with this, too?:>)


Illuminati Cash 'Slush Fund'
Estimated At $65 Trillion
Illegal Federal Reserve At Heart Of Problem
As Minnesota Judge Allegedly Poisened In
1969 After Ruling Against Corrupt Banksters

By Greg Szymanski
3-23-6

www.rense.com

or this ~ today?

Italease blow-up stokes derivatives fears

While the debacle poses no systemic risk to the Italian banking system, it sheds light on the murky world of credit derivatives -- viewed by regulators as the most risky and untested of the $410 trillion derivatives market (seven times global GDP).

www.telegraph.co.uk


or maybe this?

Greenspan in jail!? Latest in Leo Wanta's $4.5 trillion saga

worldreports.org

""I would be if you polled the people of this town they would be overwhelmingly in favor of the picture being allowed to stay..."'

Which is specifically why the Constitution isn't changed with a simple majority vote. Duh!!!

Rob-

Nobody cares what you and many other people think is or is not a violation of the Constitution. The majority of people at one point thought that prohibiting interracial marriages was a good idea. They were wrong, it was a violation of the Constitution. I am not telling you that these two violations are comparable. I am telling you that the will of the majority is not necessarily in comport with the Constitution, and providing an example.

ACLU Will Win when this goes to Court. Mark My words.

Larry

Posted by LarryMohr


Probably... if they do one thing for certain is there will be celebrations from coast to coast, that this decade long tyranny will have finally ended and we can finally breathe the free air when that small picture of Jesus is taken down in Slidell Louisiana. I know here in Cherry Hill, NJ we've felt the crushing weight of oppression this picture has forced on all of us... oh how we yearn for the day that this picture of Jesus is gone from the courthouse in Slidell, Louisiana... We hold out hope that it will be within our lifetimes, if not our's then maybe our children's.

"You see it as this massive violation of the Constitution.

To me and I'm betting a large percentage of the country, the Amendment saying "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is not violated by a picture in a courthouse...

Now if the Federal gov't or a state or a city or even a school district, tried to pass a law saying the official religion of this [insert whatever here] is now and forever Roman Catholicism, I would be right there with you screaming for it to be stricken from the record and the people who passed it removed from power... but come on!!! This is just a picture... it does not establish an official religion, it is not a slippery slope (considering its been there for 10 fucking years)... its just a picture. I highly doubt a small picture of Jesus is what the founders were worried about when they wrote the first amendment."
--ROB_THE_A_HOLE


Good point. How is this in any way, shape, or form making a law establishing a religion?

Also, the posters on this site will readily reject the slippery slope argument when it suits their opinions, but have no problem applying it here.

"You needed to provide secondary sources to show that the painting is of Jesus. You could not do it by looking at the painting itself."

Well, not being an idiot, I could tell immediately from looking at the picture that it was a picture of Jesus. The fact that you continuously denied that it is one is what led me to provide secondary sources. BTW, giving you the name of the painting itself is not really a "secondary source" if you think about it hard enough.

I'm also still waiting for you to provide any sort of legal precedent backing up your claim that as long as a picture called "Christ the Savior" doesn't have a cross on it, that is will not be considered religious in nature by a court. I have a feeling I'll be waiting a long time for that.

The majority of people at one point thought that prohibiting interracial marriages was a good idea.

Again, comparing racial inequities of the past and a meaningless fucking picture is retarded.

I am not telling you that these two violations are comparable

Because you are missing a chromosome?

Its a fucking picture... its not tellingn Black men and women to get to the back of the bus, its not stopping women from voting, its not anything but a picture.

Thanks for proving my point Joe. You needed to provide secondary sources to show that the painting is of Jesus. You could not do it by looking at the painting itself.

And if people cannot tell it is Jesus just by looking at it, then it doesn't violate the 1st amendment.

Which is why the ACLU will lose in court.


Posted by Bowa at 2007-07-05 12:20 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
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ANYONE with a shred of Intellectual Honesty can figure out that is Jesus. It's not rocket science. LOKISFUR.

Larry

Cia Security Services


1155 Marlkress Rd # 100
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003

(856) 310-9463


maps.google.com

Also, the posters on this site will readily reject the slippery slope argument when it suits their opinions, but have no problem applying it here.

Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE


Its been 10 years... can anyone explain to me, why now?

"This Court looks for the meaning to an observer of indeterminate religious affiliation who knows all the facts and circumstances surrounding a challenged display."
Capitol Square Review and Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753

Read my post again Rob. I said "I am not telling you that these two violations are comparable." If the only response you have is to a point I never made, then go argue with someone else.

Joe, recent findings by the SCOTUS turn on the term "impermissible proselytizing" the standards for which are that it is OK to acknowledge a religious text (or piece of art as in this case) but it can't cross the line into advancing a specific religion.

The nebules nature of the art, as well as the non-religious text on the painting and immediately below it strongly suggest that the line over "impermissible proselytizing" has not been crossed.

"I am not telling you that these two violations are comparable. I am telling you that the will of the majority is not necessarily in comport with the Constitution, and providing an example."

To Rob, this means I think a Jesus picture and racial inequality are the same.

Joe--i don't have the time, but please quickly explain for everyone the Lemon Test and how this painting clearly violates it.

Whether or not the painting is easily determined to be Jesus or not has no impact on the tests outlined in the Lemon case.

Bowa- are you now abandoning the argument that the fact that the picture is supposedly not "readily identifiable" as religious makes it not a violation? If so, say so.

I said "I am not telling you that these two violations are comparable." If the only response you have is to a point I never made, then go argue with someone else.

Posted by JOE


I missed the not... doesn't matter, by putting them together you are making the comparison.

Racial inequality and a picture don't even belong on the same thread, let alone the same post.

""ANYONE with a shred of Intellectual Honesty can figure out that is Jesus. It's not rocket science.""

In all liklihood, if you were able to actually show this picture to Mary, the mother of Jesus, she would not recognize this as a picture of her son. I doubt that any of the apostles would recognize him either.

BOWA--whether something is "impermissible proselytizing" is a test from the Lynch case (i believe) that deals with situations where the free exercise clause conflicts with the establishment clause.

In other words, it doesn't apply here.

_B_,

The SC has recently criticized the Lemon test and declined to use it in some cases, but I will mention it briefly anyways.

The SC formed a test where if any of the following three prongs are violated, the action is unconstitutional:

1. The government's action must have a legitimate secular purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.


1. is the hardest test for government officials to meet. I have a hard time believing that there was any secular purpose in putting a picture called "Christ our Savior" in which he's shoving the Bible into your face, but I'd be willing to listen.

2. It's difficult to determine what the "primary effect" of the picture is, but I suppose aesthetics would give religiousity a run for its money in this case. Still, it wouldn't be difficult for a court to determine that the primary effect of putting up a picture called "Christ our Savior" in which he's shoving the Bible into your face is that of promoting religion, just as putting the picture up with a big red circle and slash through it would have the primary effect of inhibiting religion.

3. I don't think the third prong is violated, but you only need to violate one of them. An excessive government entanglement usually results from situations which would involve working with religious groups or monitoring activities (like school prayer) to ensure that they do not cross the line.


As I said before, this test is not necessarily favored anymore but has not been struck down. There are numerous other factors courts look at, such as the history of our country and the history behind the actual display.

"doesn't matter, by putting them together you are making the comparison."

No I'm not. I am telling you that the will of the majority is not necessarily in comport with the Constitution, and providing an example. Get it through your skull.

The nebules nature of the art, as well as the non-religious text on the painting and immediately below it strongly suggest that the line over "impermissible proselytizing" has not been crossed.

Posted by Bowa at 2007-07-05 12:31 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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WRONG please do so ever try yet again for it displays a bible verse when is Impermissible Proselytizing. Do try yet again LOKISFUR.

Larry

Joe--can you point me to a few cases where they've marginalized Lemon?

B-
Did you ever see my reply to your comment about my sick humor from the other day? Talking about raping and killing & being an excitable boy?

If not, it was a joke pulled from the lyrics of a Warren Zevon song. The song is typical Top-40 pap, but the lyrics are twisted:
www.moron.nl

"This Court looks for the meaning to an observer of indeterminate religious affiliation who knows all the facts and circumstances surrounding a challenged display."
Capitol Square Review and Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753


I guess you missed the more recent ruling by the SCOTUS which allowed the ten commandments to remain on the grounds of the State capitol of Texas.
en.wikipedia.org

It is interesting to note that in his concurrence, Stephen Bryer wrote, "If these factors provide a strong, but not conclusive, indication that the Commandments' text on this monument conveys a predominantly secular message, a further factor is determinative here. As far as I can tell, 40 years passed in which the presence of this monument, legally speaking, went unchallenged (until the single legal objection raised by petitioner). And I am not aware of any evidence suggesting that this was due to a climate of intimidation. Hence, those 40 years suggest more strongly than can any set of formulaic tests that few individuals, whatever their system of beliefs, are likely to have understood the monument as amounting, in any significantly detrimental way, to a government effort to favor a particular religious sect, primarily to promote religion over nonreligion, to "engage in" any "religious practic[e]," to "compel" any "religious practic[e]," or to "work deterrence" of any "religious belief." Schempp, 374 U. S., at 305 (Goldberg, J., concurring). Those 40 years suggest that the public visiting the capitol grounds has considered the religious aspect of the tablets' message as part of what is a broader moral and historical message reflective of a cultural heritage."

"shoving the Bible into your face"
--JOE


Shoving a Bible into your face? Do you have some sort of insecurity? When you go to a hotel and see a Bible on the nightstand do you feel like its being shoved in your face?

_B_:

In Van Orden v. Perry, 545 U.S. 677 (2005), the SC stated the following:

"Over the last 25 years, we have sometimes pointed to Lemon v. Kurtzman as providing the governing test in Establishment Clause challenges. Yet, just two years after Lemon was decided, we noted that the factors identified in Lemon serve as "no more than helpful signposts." Hunt v. McNair, 413 U.S. 734. Many of our recent cases simply have not applied the Lemon test. See, e.g., Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, 536 U.S. 639, 122 S.Ct. 2460, 153 L.Ed.2d 604 (2002); Good News Club v. Milford Central School, 533 U.S. 98, 121 S.Ct. 2093, 150 L.Ed.2d 151 (2001). Others have applied it only after concluding that the challenged practice was invalid under a different Establishment Clause test.

Whatever may be the fate of the Lemon test in the larger scheme of Establishment Clause jurisprudence, we think it not useful in dealing with the sort of passive monument that Texas has erected on its Capitol grounds. Instead, our analysis is driven both by the nature of the monument and by our Nation's history.

Live Or Die:

"When you go to a hotel and see a Bible on the nightstand do you feel like its being shoved in your face?"

No, but if you look at the picture, it's clearly being held out toward you. While that might be a little different from shoving it in your face, my wording was more accurate than your comparison to a Bible sitting on the nightstand.

"as well as the non-religious text on the painting..."
posted by Bowa

When you wonder why people call you a "liar", think of times like these. Numberous posts after it has been shown to be a passage from the Bible, you're still claiming it's a "non-religious text".

John 7:24

NASB: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (NASB 1995)
GWT: Stop judging by outward appearance! Instead, judge correctly."(GOD'S WORD)
KJV: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
ASV: Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
BBE: Let not your decisions be based on what you see, but on righteousness.
DBY: Judge not according to sight, but judge righteous judgment.
ERV: Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
WEY: Do not form superficial judgements, but form the judgements that are just."
WBS: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
WEB: Don't judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
YLT: judge not according to appearance, but the righteous judgment judge.'

Now...tell us all again how this is a "non-religious" text.

No i didn't oohrah---but that quote makes the post all the better. Just like sick humor--i love it when artists write poppy upbeat songs with really dark lyrics. Sorta like Steely Dan writing songs about an attraction between cousins.

I've decided to add a new tenet to my religion's faith I'm working on.

Bare walls. Bare walls signify the soul and the path of life. Provided by the Supreme Profit, I mean Prophet, that, to be a member of the True Faith, your walls must be bare. One must bare themselves to the truth by shedding all images from the walls.

Now, after I implement my tenet to the faithful, I will allow ACLU to continue with the propagation of my faith.

Praise to ACLU.

_B_,

I personally find Scalia's assault of the Lemon test in the following dissent to be even more enjoyable:

"As to the Court's invocation of the Lemon test: Like some ghoul in a late night horror movie that repeatedly sits up in its grave and shuffles abroad, after being repeatedly killed and buried, Lemon stalks our Establishment Clause jurisprudence once again, frightening thelittle children and school attorneys of Center Moriches Union Free School District. Its most recent burial, only last Term, was, to be sure, not fully six feet under: our decision in Lee v. Weisman, 505 U. S. ----, ---- (1992) (slip op., at 7), conspicuously avoided using the supposed "test" but also declined the invitation to repudiate it. Over the years, however, no fewer than five of the currently sitting Justices have, in their own opinions, personally driven pencils through the creature's heart (the author of today's opinion repeatedly), and a sixth has joined an opinion doing so. See, e. g., Weisman, supra, at ---- (slip op., at 14) (Scalia, J., joined by, inter alios, Thomas, J., dissenting); Allegheny County v. American Civil Liberties Union, Greater Pittsburgh Chapter, 492 U.S. 573, 655-657 (1989) (Kennedy, J., concurring in judgment in part and dissenting in part); Corporation of Presiding Bishop of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints v. Amos, 483 U.S. 327, 346-349 (1987) (O'Connor, J., concurring); Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 107-113 (1985) (Rehnquist, J., dissenting); id., at 90-91 (White, J., dissenting); School Dist. of Grand Rapids v. Ball, 473 U.S. 373, 400 (1985) (White, J., dissenting); Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U.S. 263, 282 (1981) (White, J., dissenting); New York v. Cathedral Academy, 434 U.S. 125, 134-135 (1977) (White, J., dissenting); Roemer v. Maryland Bd. of Public Works, 426 U.S. 736, 768 (1976) (White, J., concurring in judgment); Committee for Public Education & Religious Liberty v. Nyquist, 413 U.S. 756, 820 (1973) (White, J., dissenting).

The secret of the Lemon test's survival, I think, is that it is so easy to kill. It is there to scare us (and our audience) when we wish it to do so, but we can command it to return to the tomb at will. See, e. g., Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668, 679 (1984) (noting instances in which Court has not applied Lemon test). When we wish to strike down a practice it forbids, we invoke it, see, e. g., Aguilar v. Felton, 473 U.S. 402 (1985) (striking downstate remedial education program administered in part in parochial schools); when we wish to uphold a practice it forbids, we ignore it entirely, see Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783 (1983) (upholding state legislative chaplains). Sometimes, we take a middle course, calling its three prongs "no more than helpful signposts," Hunt v. McNair, 413 U.S. 734, 741 (1973). Such a docile and useful monster is worth keeping around, at least in a somnolent state; one never knows when one might need him."
Lamb's Chapel v. Ctr. Moriches Union Free Sch. Dist. (91-2024), 508 U.S. 384 (1993).

Sorry Oorah...been busy doing that little thing called WORKING...some of us have to you know. Anyways, when I'm not working for all you people in the private sector
(I exist somewhere in the Fed. Government)
I entertain myself from time to time on this posting site...

ok...lets see...gotta scroll way way up...
gonna be a bit...

(all this scrolling up and down makes my head hurt)...

ok. Point 1.), weren't we originally talking about a picture of Jesus in the Courthouse? Isn't that what this post was originally refering to? That is not some general reference to God, but indeed, a very specific reference to one
version of God (and hense, discrimination)

Point 2.), someone else, I forget who above, stated something to the effect of
"Why do you need a picture of Jesus in the courthouse?", to which I would add,
"Yeah, why in a courthouse?"

What is the incessant need of evangelicals and fundamentalists in having Jesus posted everywhere? And is that infringing on my rights? Upon a muslim or a Taoists rights?

I mean personally, it doesn't so much affect me, I just walk on by, but, that doesn't mean it does not affect someone else a bit less thick skinned.

Aren't we supposed to all try to tollerate each other's views, at least somewhat?

My basic point is, there is a place for
religious icons and figureheads. It is in the church. Always has been, always will be. I shouldn't have to look at another religious figure in this country that isn't on church/synagogue/mosque grounds. It simply, in my opinion, doesn't belong elsewhere.

8:56--As to harm: yes, I think to some, there is mesurable harm to some who find it offensive. Is that me? I find it repugnant (off of church/holy place settings) that's all.

9:30--non-specific God. Being a Universalist myself, I prefer to refer to
God or a Creator in the non-specific (because God to me, is larger than any one concept or name), but that doesn't mean I step on anyone else's rights to call God whatever they want to, nor do I think it right to force atheists to have to conform, even though I realize it will probably be done so anyways.

8:45--I would be against any sort of lumping or categorizing people by faith, or saying that they would have any less
in the way of rights that others have, if that is what you meant. Sorry, could not find the original post...

*sigh*...well, back to working for the people...





Genesis 42:26

"they loaded their grain on their donkeys and left."

Its in the Bible so by Danni's logic it better not appear on any government paintings.

I guess you missed the more recent ruling by the SCOTUS which allowed the ten commandments to remain on the grounds of the State capitol of Texas. en.wikipedia.org

It is interesting to note that in his concurrence, Stephen Bryer wrote, "If these factors provide a strong, but not conclusive, indication that the Commandments' text on this monument conveys a predominantly secular message, a further factor is determinative here. As far as I can tell, 40 years passed in which the presence of this monument, legally speaking, went unchallenged (until the single legal objection raised by petitioner). And I am not aware of any evidence suggesting that this was due to a climate of intimidation. Hence, those 40 years suggest more strongly than can any set of formulaic tests that few individuals, whatever their system of beliefs, are likely to have understood the monument as amounting, in any significantly detrimental way, to a government effort to favor a particular religious sect, primarily to promote religion over nonreligion, to "engage in" any "religious practic[e]," to "compel" any "religious practic[e]," or to "work deterrence" of any "religious belief." Schempp, 374 U. S., at 305 (Goldberg, J., concurring). Those 40 years suggest that the public visiting the capitol grounds has considered the religious aspect of the tablets' message as part of what is a broader moral and historical message reflective of a cultural heritage."




Posted by Bowa at 2007-07-05 12:45 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
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Why don't You try some intellectual Honesty the SAME COURT Declared that You could NOT have the 10 commandments inside of the CourtHouse. Please do try again. Oh and You also conveiniantly forget about Judge Roy Moore being ordered to remove the 10 commandments from His CourtHouse. The one that ultimately got Him FIRED.

Larry

Now...tell us all again how this is a "non-religious" text.

For those few people who can actually read "russian Cyrillic" it is non-religious because it expresses universal ideals.

An example of a religious passage such as John3:16 would be a violation of the 1st amendemnt if it was hung in a courthouse.

NASB: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (NASB 1995)
GWT: Stop judging by outward appearance! Instead, judge correctly."(GOD'S WORD)
KJV: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
ASV: Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
BBE: Let not your decisions be based on what you see, but on righteousness.
DBY: Judge not according to sight, but judge righteous judgment.
ERV: Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
WEY: Do not form superficial judgements, but form the judgements that are just."
WBS: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
WEB: Don't judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
YLT: judge not according to appearance, but the righteous judgment judge.'


Now...tell us all again how this is a "non-religious" text.

Posted by Danforth


The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002.

Don't judge a book by its cover


Don't judge the value of a thing simply by its appearance. 1


The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Edited by E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett, and James Trefil. Copyright 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

You Can't Judge A Book By Its Cover
Lyrics: Willie Dixon
Music: Willie Dixon

Performed once by Jerry Garcia and Howard Wales on 26 January 1972. That version seems to start with a "Bo Diddley" verse - it was Bo Diddley who originally had a hit with "You Can't Judge A Book". Also covered by the New Riders of the Purple Sage.

Bo Diddley, Bo Diddley, where you been
Been down the river and I'm going again
[Hanna, Hanna,] have you heard
[?] word

You can't judge a book (note 1)
By looking at a tree
You can't judge honey
By looking at a bee
You can't judge one
By looking at the other
And you can't judge a book
By looking at the cover


humanities.byu.edu

Wasn't it Atticus Finch who said "Don't judge a book by its cover?" Such an over-used clich

"No, but if you look at the picture, it's clearly being held out toward you. While that might be a little different from shoving it in your face, my wording was more accurate than your comparison to a Bible sitting on the nightstand."
--JOE


Still, if that threatens you I'm gonna have to say you have some pretty thin skin.

For those few people who can actually read "russian Cyrillic" it is non-religious because it expresses universal ideals.

An example of a religious passage such as John3:16 would be a violation of the 1st amendemnt if it was hung in a courthouse.

Posted by Bowa at 2007-07-05 12:55 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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IT'S A GOD DAMNED BIBLE VERSE NO DIFFERENT THAN JOHN 3:16 for pete sake. LOKISFUR!!!!!!

Larry

"if that threatens you I'm gonna have to say you have some pretty thin skin"

When did I ever say I was threatened by anything? Looks like you're making assumptions.

Bowa-

"I guess you missed the more recent ruling by the SCOTUS which allowed the ten commandments to remain on the grounds of the State capitol of Texas"

No, in fact, I've cited to it already in this thread. Notably, that case says nothing that would contradict what you quoted me saying.

Excerpt from the All About History site:

# Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."

# The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

# God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings.

# As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries.

# Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.

# The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.

# Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.

# Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.

# Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."

# Our national anthem mentions God.

# The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.

# The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God.

# Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.

# Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times.

And there of many other examples in which "God" has a tacit endorsement in many public institutions.

A portrait of Jesus though is indicative of a tacit, governmental endorsement of a specific religion, that being Christianity, though broad-based and represented by a multitude of sects. And therein lies the rub.

The mention of "God" in and of itself is not an endorsement of a specific religion, as all religions recognize the existence of a supreme being. The recognition of God is not in conflict with the 1st Amendment.

It remains most interesting to me that Christmas remains a federally mandated national holiday, being that it is in essence the acknowledgment of the Birth of Christ, the Son of God, and is subsequently funded by the Federal Government in many forms.

Why don't You try some intellectual Honesty the SAME COURT Declared that You could NOT have the 10 commandments inside of the CourtHouse

A byzantine painting that doesn't mention God or religion at all doesn't come close to meeting the standard for ""impermissible proselytizing"" which putting the ten commandments (with 4 of the 10 commandements specifically referring to God and or a specific religion) in a courtroom.

Face it, you, Joe, the ACLU and others don't have a legal leg to stand on -- especially with the SCOTUS we have now.

"It is a picture of Jesus, and therefore is based in religion, but it speaks of judgements and the words underneath speak of obeying the law."
Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

But a different set of laws, wouldn't you agree? I mean, just using the "laws" you yourself posted as an example.

You are Intellectually Dishonest and a LIAR LOKSIFUR. That is a Proven Fact.

Larry

Why are paintings like this even necesssary? If it is not to show someone that the area is governed by some sort of Christian, belief, what is it?


And Joe--reading supreme court opinions like that drive me insane. It really looks like they want to move away from the test for the sole reason that they disagree with its outcome. And then, in its place, they make a bunch of shit up instead of creating a better form of the test. Without a test people can rely on, no one will have an understanding of what they can and cannot do. All that does is create controversy like this. And there's nothing more frustrating than making Christians feel like they're being attacked.

Bowa- the italicized quote you put up was not mine, and the standard of "impermissible proselytizing" is but one of many standards used apparently arbitrarily depending on what kind of day a judge happens to be having. To pretend that the standard you've mentioned is the only one out there is foolish, and to act as though this is an open and shut case isn't much better. I'm not saying it's open and shut in my direction either, but if the court decided to use the Lemon test I don't see how they'd meet the first or second prong.

It remains most interesting to me that Christmas remains a federally mandated national holiday, being that it is in essence the acknowledgment of the Birth of Christ, the Son of God, and is subsequently funded by the Federal Government in many forms.

Posted by ZOT

yet we all know that xmas is an ancient pagan holiday chosen by the powers back that be in some AD Emperor time period to signify JC's birthday for the "modern" world to celebrate:>)

Ceremonial Deism: Using a general deity/god in a public governmental action, such as "In God We Trust" on currency, or saying "God Bless This Court" at the opening of the U.S. Supreme Court. It is theorized that certain common religious references do not offend the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution.




Petrousology is a new religion I'm working on. Bare walls are a necessity in one's life: one of my tenets for the faithful. You must seek to bare the walls of your court buildings to be a fit member.

Go, ACLU, go. Preach the faith, brother!

_B_, I agree with your sentiment regarding the lack of a concrete test in these cases. At the very least they should fully repudiate the Lemon Test instead of invoking it at random.

For a verse from the Bible or Koran or any book for that matter to be viewed as "religious" it must be apparently so.

Those passages which present univeral ideas that are nonreligious in nature are not penalized in our law just because of their provenance.

To pretend that the standard you've mentioned is the only one out there is foolish, and to act as though this is an open and shut case isn't much better. I'm not saying it's open and shut in my direction either

I will give you that. Courts, just like Blogs, are notoriusly contentious.

And I don't think ""impermissible proselytizing" is the only standard.-- there are others, for example the amount of time that has passed without a complaint as Breyer menioned in his concurrence on the Texas case is another one.



The quote says "obey these laws" while the christ is holding up a book of different laws than the court. In ways it's a smack in the face to secular law.

The quote says "obey these laws" while the christ is holding up a book of different laws than the court. In ways it's a smack in the face to secular law.

Well Danforth, I have to hand it to you -- that's the best argument yet for the ACLU to use.

If they can convince a judge that people coming into the court will look at the picture and believe that it is telling them to follow the laws of Christianity instead of the secular laws of the United States then that certainly would meet the standard for "impermissible proselytizing" that the SCOTUS recently set.

Hard case to make though.

But a different set of laws, wouldn't you agree? I mean, just using the "laws" you yourself posted as an example.

Posted by Danforth


No, the painting nor the inscription below makes any reference to the laws contained within the Bible. It is very general and vague, just obey the law, and be fair in judgements (summed up by me). People see the picture of Jesus and think Christianity, and that's understandable, but there is nothing about this picture and the words associated with it, that is an endorsement of Religion or encouraging people to convert to that religion.

What religion is it endorsing btw? Christianity? The obvious choice, but the Jews view Christ as a Rabbi, the Muslims view him as a prophet. Since the inscriptions do not speak of anything specific to Christianity it is impossible to call this just an endorsement of Christianity.


ZEUS

Zeus, the youngest son of Cronus and Rhea, he was the supreme ruler of Mount Olympus and of the Pantheon of gods who resided there. Being the supreme ruler he upheld law, justice and morals, and this made him the spiritual leader of both gods and men. Zeus was a celestial god, and originally worshiped as a weather god by the Greek tribes. These people came southward from the Balkans circa 2100 BCE. He has always been associated as being a weather god, as his main attribute is the thunderbolt, he controlled thunder, lightning and rain. Theocritus wrote circa 265 BCE: "sometimes Zeus is clear, sometimes he rains". He is also known to have caused thunderstorms. In Homer's epic poem the Iliad he sent thunderstorms against his enemies. The name Zeus is related to the Greek word dios, meaning "bright". His other attributes as well as lightning were the scepter, the eagle and his aegis (this was the goat-skin of Amaltheia).

Before the abolition of monarchies, Zeus was protector of the king and his family. Once the age of Greek kings faded into democracy he became chief judge and peacemaker, but most importantly civic god. He brought peace in place of violence and Hesiod (circa 700 BCE) describes Zeus as "the lord of justice". Zeus was also known as "Kosmetas" (orderer), "Soter" (savior), "Polieos" (overseer of the polis, city) and "Eleutherios" (guarantor of political freedoms).

Zeus had many offspring; his wife Hera bore him Ares, Hephaestus, Hebe and Eileithyia, but Zeus had numerous liaisons with both goddesses and mortals. He either raped them, or used devious means to seduce the unsuspecting maidens. His union with Leto (meaning the hidden one) brought forth the twins Apollo and Artemis. Once again Hera showed her jealousy by forcing Leto to roam the earth in search of a place to give birth, as Hera had stopped her from gaining shelter on terra-firma or at sea. The only place she could go was to the isle of Delos in the middle of the Aegean, the reason being that Delos was, as legend states, a floating island.
~~~~
Zeus had many Temples and festivals in his honor, the most famous of his sanctuaries being Olympia, the magnificent "Temple of Zeus", which held the gold and ivory statue of the enthroned Zeus, sculpted by Phidias and hailed as one of the "Seven Wonders of the Ancient World". Also the Olympic Games were held in his honor. The Nemean Games, which were held every two years, were to honor Zeus. There were numerous festivals throughout Greece: in Athens they celebrated the marriage of Zeus and Hera with the Theogamia (or Gamelia). The celebrations were many: in all, Zeus had more than 150 epithets, each one being celebrated in his honor.

In art, Zeus was usually portrayed as bearded, middle aged but with a youthful figure. He would look very regal and imposing. Artists always tried to reproduce the power of Zeus in their work, usually by giving him a pose as he is about to throw his bolt of lightening. There are many statues of Zeus, but without doubt the Artemisium Zeus is the most magnificent. It was previously thought to be Poseidon, and can be seen in the Athens National Archaeological Museum.


href="http://www.pantheon.org/ articles/z/zeus.html">www.pantheon.org

JC is a son of God just like Zeus!:>)

Larry,

Although I'm not a liberial, I will try to address your question and some others as a more academic reply.

Regarding your Roman Goddess reference. If the depiction is one that promotes one religion over another and is one being practiced, it should be removed.

However, just because a particular piece of artwork on government property has character that is in a particular religion isn't enough. A good example that I believe specifically relates to the question you pose would be prior precedence established relating to the Friezes in the Supreme Court as it relates to Moses and the 10 commandments and various freizes that have religion characters.

Most of the artistic embellishment in the building involves symbolic and allegorical representations of such legal themes as justice, authority, fairness and the like. Most of these representations involve human figures representing the civilizations of Greece and Rome (the building itself was designed to invoke the feeling of the classical Greek temple). If quantity is the measure of importance, the architecture of the Supreme Court favors the classical over the Mosaic tradition of law. Moreover, where Moses and the 10 Commandments are depicted, they are never given positions of exclusive prominence, as we would expect if the intention of the architecture was to establish a connection between the Bible and American law. Rather, the architecture depicts Moses as one of many important lawgivers, and the 10 Commandments as one of many important events in legal history. It is for that reason the artwork was legally allowed to remain.

The purpose of separation of church and state is not to blow away all religious symbols of religion.

To others who request damages listed, the arguement would be frrdom to practice their own religion and the possible government establishment of a national religion. Favoring one religion over others maybe viewed as moving in that direction.

Hope that helps.

"there are others, for example the amount of time that has passed without a complaint as Breyer menioned in his concurrence on the Texas case is another one."

That's not a standard anyone has used before Breyer talked about it in his concurring opinion. I'd say the Lemon test would be considered more authoritative than that borderline dicta.


The quote says "obey these laws" while the christ is holding up a book of different laws than the court. In ways it's a smack in the face to secular law.

Posted by Danforth


If they wanted it to be religious they would have said, "Obey God's law..." they didn't, they said "Obey these laws," and given that its inside a courthouse it can easily be inferred that they mean the laws of this land.

Zeus is a son of Gods, too!

www.pantheon.org


"it is impossible to call this just an endorsement of Christianity."

Nobody ever said it only had to endorse one specific religion to be an impermissible endorsement - it could endorse all of them and still make atheists feel like outsiders.

Communism, Secularism, Humanism, Democratism, Republicanism, Mormonism, Protestantism, Abortionism, Homosexualism, Mohammadism, etc are all belief systems. The Supreme Court many years ago defined religion in a case TORCASO v. WATKINS. Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others, are defined as Christianity, religions.

There is a distinct difference between a church, a belief system and a religion. Please get it right before you show your stupidity by making statements of fact which hold no water. Opinions mean precious little but facts mean a whole lot.

The picture is just that, a picture. Get over it and discuss something intelligent and something that has real meaning instead, such as ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION instead of something that has no bearing whatsoever on the future of this nation.

it could endorse all of them and still make atheists feel like outsiders.

Posted by JOE


What is with this not letting people feel like outsiders nonsense... where is that right in the constitution?

if somebody is that insecure they should be deported...

"What is with this not letting people feel like outsiders nonsense"

It's a principle embodied in case law. When school prayer was made mandatory, those that did not believe in God or prayer were made to feel like outsiders by the government's endorsement of one particular belief system. One purpose of the Establishment Clause is to ensure that all citizens feel equal to one another, and that none of them will be treated differently by our government based on their beliefs. These principles are exacerbated when violations of the Establishment Clause occur in a courtroom, because that is the forum in which laws are applied to individual citizens.

"given that its inside a courthouse it can easily be inferred that they mean the laws of this land."

I'd say another reasonable inference would be that they meant the laws of the Bible, given that the text appears directly below a picture of Jesus holding the Bible out towards you.

I'd say the Lemon test would be considered more authoritative than that borderline dicta.

And I'd say you would be wrong since the SCOTUS hasn't even used the Lemon test since 2000.

"Lemon's future is somewhat uncertain. Sustained criticism by conservative Justices such as Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, lack of a clear reaffirmation of the central tenets of Lemon over the years since the 1980s, and inconsistent application in major Establishment Clause cases has led some legal commentators and lower court judges to believe that Lemon's days are numbered, and that the Court has implicitly left the decision of whether to apply the test in a specific case up to lower courts. This has resulted in a patchwork pattern of enforcement in circuit courts across the nation; while some courts apply Lemon in all or most cases, others apply it in few or none. The Supreme Court itself has applied the Lemon test as recently as Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000)."
en.wikipedia.org

One purpose of the Establishment Clause is to ensure that all citizens feel equal to one another, and that none of them will be treated differently by our government based on their beliefs

Just out of curiosity how what steps would need to be taken to get rid of the Establishment Clause?

I ask because that seems to be the cause of a lot of what's wrong with America... I don't give a flying fuck how other people feel. I care that everyone is treated equally and that's it... If we cater to peoples feelings, we're always going to be reducing ourselves to the whiny pussies of the country because they're going to be the ones crying about how they feel, which means they are then given preferential treatment and then we are not equal.

I'd say another reasonable inference would be that they meant the laws of the Bible, given that the text appears directly below a picture of Jesus holding the Bible out towards you.

Posted by JOE


They've already got a picture of Jesus up there, if they wanted it to be an endorsement of religion, they would have had no problems flipping that page in the bible to something speaking specifically of God and God's laws. They didn't do that did they? No, they stuck to a very general, very nonspecific to Christianity verse about judging people fairly, and then added another phrase about obeying these laws, again specifically not God's laws...

They already had Jesus' picture up... thre is no reason to be vague with the words, unless they specifically were not trying to be religious.

So what, Bowa? How many times has the Supreme Court cited Breyer's concurring opinion in Van Orden v. Perry as valid precedent? Zero. How many times have they used the Lemon Test? Probably dozens of times.

The picture is just that, a picture. Get over it and discuss something intelligent and something that has real meaning instead, such as ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION instead of something that has no bearing whatsoever on the future of this nation.

Posted by farmerjohn


Like this?:>)

ireland.com - Breaking News - 'Free' energy technology goes on display

www.ireland.com


or this?


Mexico denies official complicity in drug suspect's $150 million cash hoard
http://www.iht.com/bin/ print.php?id=6482102

"If they wanted it to be religious they would have said, "Obey God's law..." they didn't, they said "Obey these laws," and given that its inside a courthouse it can easily be inferred that they mean the laws of this land."

Not when he's holding out a Bible.

Why coudn't it be inferred the operative word in the phrase is these?

"They've already got a picture of Jesus up there, if they wanted it to be an endorsement of religion, they would have had no problems flipping that page in the bible to something speaking specifically of God and God's laws"

Perhaps they thought their ambiguity would get them off the hook. We'll have to wait and see.

And instead of endorsing getting rid of the Establishment Clause altogether, how about we endorse getting rid of any public displays of religion? Seems to me that you wouldn't have to hear people whining if the government would stop putting pictures of Jesus up in their public buildings.

Not when he's holding out a Bible.

Why coudn't it be inferred the operative word in the phrase is these?

Posted by Danforth


But the Bible in this picture is not turned to a verse that is a ringing endorsement of Christianity... it is about fair judgement... can you think of a better place for a phrase about judging people fairly then in a courthouse?

I am inferring the operative word in the phrase is these, but not these in regards to the Bible, these in regards to the laws of the court, of the state of Louisiana, and the United States of America.

"May God bless this Honorable Court."

"The Supreme Court is now in session."

"Today we will hear from an athiest and their lawsuit against the US."

Athiest, "Did you just say God bless this honorable court?" "God help me."

"oops"

And instead of endorsing getting rid of the Establishment Clause altogether, how about we endorse getting rid of any public displays of religion?

Because putting up pictures of religious figures or putting "In God We Trust" on our money, does not hurt a single person and does not damage this country in the slighest...

Giving every whiny little pussy his day to tell the Supreme Court what's bothering him at this particular moment is severely hurting this nation...

Joe trying to connect "school prayer" to this painting in the courtroom is not valid.

School prayer is inherently prosyletizing and requires students who don't believe in God to engage in an action that is against their belief system. They are not only made to feel like outiders but they are being asked to compromise their prionciples by a governemnt entity - the school.

The painting is passive. It does not resquire any action on the part of the observer, it makes no demands on the observer at all. It certainly does not require the compromising of ones prinsiples or even any admonition or derision that comes from non-participation with the rest of the group as the painting requires no participation at all.

And Unlike the "ten Commandments" The text below it is non -religious, and obvious for a courtroom --"Obey these Laws".

Given all the above, the court wuld be hard pressed to find that the mere presence of the paining in the court violates the first amendment.

"But the Bible in this picture is not turned to a verse that is a ringing endorsement of Christianity"

So what? He's not holding out a blank notebook. He's holding a fucking Bible. The Bible itself is only used in particular religions, and when pictured in a painting of Jesus, I think anyone with a brain can infer that there is at least some level of religiosity to the painting. Stop trying to pretend that because he doesn't have the Bible turned to a page that says "Christianity Rocks!" that somehow the Bible becomes a secular object.

"it makes no demands on the observer at all"

That's funny - it says "obey these laws." Sounds like a demand to me. If you think the term "obey these laws" is referring to those of Louisiana, then why isn't that text placed below a photo of the Louisiana statutes?

I agree that the picture is passive, but that doesn't always invalidate an Establishment Clause challenge. See McCreary County v. ACLU for an example. The point is that you need to look at the purpose for the religious display - is it a secular one? I have a hard time seeing how that is possible.

Stop trying to pretend that because he doesn't have the Bible turned to a page that says "Christianity Rocks!" that somehow the Bible becomes a secular object.


That's not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that a concerted effort has been made here to not endorse a particular religion, but just make a statement about judging people fairly and obeying the laws of the United States... and yet even though that effort was made, whiney sloppy pussies still come crying and need it taken down.

It doesn't hurt you, it doesn't offend you, it does nothing to you and you absolutely need for this to be taken down. That picture hurts nobody, but probably brings a little joy to people and you have to tear it down.

The point is that you need to look at the purpose for the religious display - is it a secular one?

Yes.

"When did I ever say I was threatened by anything? Looks like you're making assumptions."
--JOE


Yes, an assumption. But then you go on to compare this ambiguous painting to madated prayer (forcing someone to pray) and talk about it making people feel like outsiders. If this painting makes you "feel" anything you have thin skin. My goodness, if I saw a statue of Buddha in a courthouse with an inscription of "Rub my tummy for good luck!" I'd look at it once and never think about it again. My assumption is that you'd feel opressed, like an outsider.


"May God bless this Honorable Court."

"The Supreme Court is now in session."

"Today we will hear from an athiest and their lawsuit against the US."

Athiest, "Did you just say God bless this honorable court?" "God help me."

"oops"

Posted by Petrous

By Zeus! FF

Rob-

Saying one word doesn't convince anyone of anything.

LiveOrDie-

I never said I felt like an outsider. You're conflating my advocacy for those that might feel like outsiders with my own feelings. I couldn't care less if there was a picture of Jesus on the wall, but I'd still think it was a violation of the law. That there might be people who feel more strongly about it than I do doesn't mean I am one of those people. I simply use them as an example of the type of person that would bring this lawsuit.

I don't compare this to mandated prayer, I specifically said that while this may be a similar violation it is nowhere nearly as egregious as that one was. I bring up old cases to use as examples, just like judges do when making rulings. Don't like it? Tough. A judge will talk all about cases that aren't exactly like this one when he rules on this case. Are you going to cry to him and say he should only have used principles from cases where there were pictures of Jesus on the wall?


Cleric in Burqa Caught at Mosque

"Of course, the brothers moved on to other things and discovered that founding a cult is the best business of all (see Scientology). LOL

Anyway, it isn't over yet."

Posted by Tosser

www.drudge.com

Why not a picture of Ron in a Government Building?:>)

"That picture hurts nobody"

I'm glad to see that Rob speaks for everyone. Yes, if anyone is actually hurt by a picture, they are a pussy. That doesn't make it any less of a violation of the Constitution.

I'm glad to see that Rob speaks for everyone

Nobody can say they are hurt by this picture, if they say this picture is hurting them in any way they are lying...

Want to know how I know for sure? this picture has been there for 10 years, and nobody has said a fucking word.

Saying one word doesn't convince anyone of anything.


It is secular, because there are hundreds of lines in the bible about obeying God's law, if they wanted it to be about religion they pretty much could have picked any random verse in the bible and gone with that and it would have been religious.

They deliberately chose a picture with words that have no mention of God, or Christianity or any religion, they added a phrase that makes no mention of God or religion, it doesn't even look like the picture is labled either. The picture is of Jesus, but the lack of any labeling, the wording use and the picture chosen was done so deliberately to keep the display secular.

"if they wanted it to be about religion they pretty much could have picked any random verse in the bible and gone with that and it would have been religious."

Says who? Maybe they thought it was religious enough as it is. You don't know what their motives were. A picture of Jesus holding a Bible out toward you is religious no matter what it says on the page. Compare that painting to a painting of a tree. Which is more religious? Are they the same? Stop pretending.

"the wording use and the picture chosen was done so deliberately to keep the display secular."

You don't know what was deliberate and what wasn't. The display is far from secular. How is a picture of Jesus holding a Bible secular? Do you know what secular means?

"I never said I felt like an outsider. You're conflating my advocacy for those that might feel like outsiders with my own feelings. I couldn't care less if there was a picture of Jesus on the wall, but I'd still think it was a violation of the law. That there might be people who feel more strongly about it than I do doesn't mean I am one of those people. I simply use them as an example of the type of person that would bring this lawsuit."
--JOE


Fine. You're not a sissy.

"I don't compare this to mandated prayer, I specifically said that while this may be a similar violation it is nowhere nearly as egregious as that one was. I bring up old cases to use as examples, just like judges do when making rulings. Don't like it? Tough. A judge will talk all about cases that aren't exactly like this one when he rules on this case. Are you going to cry to him and say he should only have used principles from cases where there were pictures of Jesus on the wall?"
--JOE

Yet you did compare it to mandated prayer by bringing it up. If there's no comparison then what the hell does it have to do with this thread? You say you don't compare the two but then you talk about using it as an example when discussing the topic of this thread. Self contradiction anyone?

That being said, bring it up all you want, but my argument and the argument of others on this thread is that mandated prayer is NOT similar to this, in that the painting makes no requirement of anyone to do anything. Its just a work of art. Don't like me saying your comparison to mandated prayer is bullshit? Tough.

"Yet you did compare it to mandated prayer by bringing it up. If there's no comparison then what the hell does it have to do with this thread?"

The cases involve similar principles of law. That doesn't mean the fact patterns need to be identical, or that I think they are.

Does Jesus have some legal significance that I'm not aware of? Was he a lawgiver like Moses? Is there anything about Jesus that represents something secular?

Posted by JOE at 2007-07-05 11:24 AM | Reply |


errrrr, I think GOD was the one who WROTE THE LAWS -- at least He laid out the basic foundation upon which many of our U.S. laws dealing with today's society and its principles and ethics (civil and criminal) are based.

Thou shalt not kill...
Thou shalt not steal...


Ever heard of the TEN COMMANDMENTS???

Just get rid of the Jesus picture and the whole thing goes away. Its not needed, it adds nothing, get rid of it and stop wasting court time with such a non-issue. Everyone in Louisianna knows its Jesus..stop arguing that its not.

Also-no more stupid foot-baths in goverment funded location...like public colleges. No Jesus picture and no foot baths. End of story. I dont know why this is such an issue. If its religious...keep it at home or in the Church.

The picture does not hurt anyone nor do the footbaths but if you dont want one you cant have the other. It either a religious free for all or a complete seperation....Ill take seperate

"That doesn't mean the fact patterns need to be identical"
--JOE


They are nowhere near identical. The only similarities are that both involve religion in some way, and that the prosecutors are trying to use the same clause to stop them. But they're not even close to being the same. One is forcing someone to engage in a religious practice, while the other is an ambiguous work of art. One is wrong, the other isn't.

"if anyone is actually hurt by a picture, they are a pussy."
--JOE


I agree with you there.

"One is forcing someone to engage in a religious practice, while the other is an ambiguous work of art. One is wrong, the other isn't."

Well, I disagree on the art being ambiguous, but you are correct in that one is far more passive than the other. However, passivity alone doesn't mean a lack of endorsement or religiosity. What is the purpose of putting up a picture of Jesus holding the Bible out toward you, other than saying "we like this one?" Even if that isn't the purpose, can you see how some people might see it that way? If it's capable of being seen that way, then why do it? Is any mild level of enjoyment you may get out of a Jesus picture worth potentially violating the Constitution?

Well, here's a case where Jesus must have inspired Joseph Smith....

Egyptian Artifacts in the Grand Canyon
The Phoenix Gazette - April 5, 1909

"Among the other finds are vases or urns and cups of copper and gold, made very artistic in design. The pottery work includes enameled ware and glazed vessels. Another passageway leads to granaries such as are found in the oriental temples. They contain seeds of various kinds. One very large storehouse has not yet been entered, as it is twelve feet high and can be reached only from above. Two copper hooks extend on the edge, which indicates that some sort of ladder was attached. These grannies are rounded, as the materials of which they are constructed, I think is a very hard cement. A Gray metal is also found in this cavern, which puzzles the scientists, for its identity has not been established. It resembles platinum."

"Strewn promiscuously over the floor everywhere are what people call 'cats eyes,' a yellow stone of no great value. Each one is engraved with the head of the Malay type."

THE HIEROGLYPHICS

"On all the urns, or walls over doorways, and tablets of stone which were found by the image are the mysterious hieroglyphics, the key to which the Smithsonian Institute hopes yet to discover. The engraving on the tablets probably has something to do with the religion of the people. Similar hieroglyphics have been found in southern Arizona. Among the pictorial writings, only two animals are found. One is of prehistoric type."

THE CRYPT

"The tomb or crypt in which the mummies were found is one of the largest of the chambers, the walls slanting back at an angle of about 35 degrees. On these are tiers of mummies, each one occupying a separate hewn shelf. At the bead of each is a small bench, on which is found copper cups and pieces of broken swords. Some of the mummies are covered with clay, and all are wrapped in a bark fabric. The urns or cups on the lower tiers are crude, while as the higher shelves are reached, the urns are finer in design, showing a later stage of civilization."

"It is worthy of note that all the mummies examined so far have proved to be male, no children or females being buried here. This leads to the belief that this exterior section was the warriors' barracks. Among the discoveries, no bones of animals have been found, no skins, no clothing, no bedding. Many of the rooms are bare but for water vessels. One room, about 40 by 700 feet, was probably the main dining hall, for cooking utensils are found here."

"What these people lived on is a problem, though it is presumed that they came south in the winter and farmed in the valleys, going back north in the summer. Upwards of 50,000 people could have lived in the caverns comfortably. One theory is that the present Indian tribes found in Arizona are descendants of the serfs or slaves of the people, which inhabited the cave. Undoubtedly a good many thousand of years before the Christian era a people lived here which reached a high stage of civilization. The chronology of human history is full of gaps."

Professor Jordan much enthused over the discoveries and believes that the find will prove of incalculable value in archaeological work.


www.xpeditionsmagazine.com

"Well, I disagree on the art being ambiguous, but you are correct in that one is far more passive than the other. However, passivity alone doesn't mean a lack of endorsement or religiosity. What is the purpose of putting up a picture of Jesus holding the Bible out toward you, other than saying "we like this one?" Even if that isn't the purpose, can you see how some people might see it that way? If it's capable of being seen that way, then why do it? Is any mild level of enjoyment you may get out of a Jesus picture worth potentially violating the Constitution?"
--JOE


I don't care if the picture is there or not. I usually don't care much for pictures of Christ because they're always of a white guy who doesn't look very Jewish. Whatever.

You ask what the purpose is; there is none, and that's why it shouldn't be a big deal. If the purpose was to convert people to Christ I'd think you'd have more of an argument. But it isn't. Its just invoking an image of Christ to portray sound judgement. Same thing to using the blind justice lady in government buildings to portray fair justice.

What I see here though is another chance to stick it to the Christians, and that the same slippery slope argument used for saying this might somehow lead to state endorsement of a relgion could be used to say that removing it might lead to the state trying to remove any semblance of relgion from the public square, to the point of someday me not being able to wear a Christian tee shirt on public property for fear of offending someone.

if somebody is that insecure they should be deported...

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

i'd give an LOL but i don't think you're joking

"You ask what the purpose is; there is none"

Well that's what you think. Who knows who decided to put up that picture, and why they decided to do so? Maybe it was donated to them by a priest who wanted people to see that picture when they entered the courtroom. Would that be okay? The court will look at all the relevant facts before making a decision, and personally I hope they make them take it down just because I'm sick of there being no standards for what is and is not a violation of the Establishment Clause. If you disallow anything religious in a government building we won't have to deal with garbage like this, and as you said, there's no purpose for putting up the picture so why do it in the first place.

Keep Jesus and other demons out of public buildings. WTF is so hard to understand about that? If people want to see pictures of Jesus or other demons, they can buy them and staple them to their ass for all I care, but keep that evil shit away from public buildings and as many children as possible.

to the point of someday me not being able to wear a Christian tee shirt on public property for fear of offending someone.

Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

interesting... personally i wouldn't think twice because, having grown up here, i'm used to seeing pictures of jesus placed everywhere. in a person's home, noone could be offended by that. but there is a point to leaving that pic out of gov't buildings, there isn't much room for interpretation. just because you, or me, or a majority of people don't have a strong opinion about something doesn't make it right or wrong, constitutional or not, legal or not... i think Joe pretty much made a nice case on it

"Well that's what you think. Who knows who decided to put up that picture, and why they decided to do so? Maybe it was donated to them by a priest who wanted people to see that picture when they entered the courtroom. Would that be okay? The court will look at all the relevant facts before making a decision, and personally I hope they make them take it down just because I'm sick of there being no standards for what is and is not a violation of the Establishment Clause. If you disallow anything religious in a government building we won't have to deal with garbage like this, and as you said, there's no purpose for putting up the picture so why do it in the first place."
--JOE


So we're going to base a decision on, "What if their possible motive was possibly to proselytize?" And then where does it stop? Ban cross necklaces on public property or officials because the purpose for wearing the necklace might be to proselytize? Ban pocket Bibles? Red dots on your forhead? After all, they might all be trying to proselytize on public property.

BUFFALO_BOB is a person who'd actually be hurt by seeing this picture.

See comments above.

I like Zeus in the Minneapolis courthouse...good friends of mine them son of gods & all them myths:>)

"So we're going to base a decision on, "What if their possible motive was possibly to proselytize?"

Not at all. The full facts will be revealed, people will testify as to where the picture came from and what the reasons for putting it up were, and a decision will be made from there. Personally I'd prefer it wasn't there regardless of motive since it's obviously capable of being interpreted as an endorsement.

"Ban cross necklaces on public property or officials because the purpose for wearing the necklace might be to proselytize? Ban pocket Bibles? Red dots on your forhead? After all, they might all be trying to proselytize on public property."

Having a bible in your pocket or a dot on your forehead is protected by the Constitution. A citizen using public property who happens to have some sort of religious object on his person is entirely different from a government building displaying a particular religious picture or message. If you don't see the difference between actions taken by a citizen and actions taken by a governmental entity, then there's no point in talking about this.

"If you don't see the difference between actions taken by a citizen and actions taken by a governmental entity, then there's no point in talking about this."
--JOE


Joe, I see the difference. It was in regards to my own slippery slope argument. See my post at 3:10pm.

A citizen using public property who happens to have some sort of religious object on his person is entirely different from a government building displaying a particular religious picture or message. If you don't see the difference between actions taken by a citizen and actions taken by a governmental entity, then there's no point in talking about this.

I think most people do see the difference Joe -- but I also think that most people believe that the intent of the 1st amendment was never to be so hostile to religion that even the most benign images would be viewed as state establishment of a particular religion.

I think for a long time the pendulum may have been swinging that way, but thankfully after close to 8 years of Republican rule, the pendulum has begun to swing back towards a more moderate and reasonable position and some recent decisions bear this out.

I think Danforth made a valid point when he suggested that a religious picture hanging above the statement "Obey these Laws" could be inferred by some as meaning "Obey God's Laws". I have no doubt that will be the primary argument the ACLU uses to argue that the paining is in violation of the first amendment.

But it is a tough case to make. And it is more reasonable to expect that the court would uphold the right of the Sliddel courthouse to keep the picture on their wall.

Keep Jesus and other demons

Ahhh another example of the meanspirited hateful intolerant retorts of Buffalo Bob.

But can anything less be expected from a person who says that Martin Luther King Jr. suffered from a "flawed" way of thinking

LOL

I don't think that the "slippery slope" of disallowing governmental establishment of religion is even on the same "mountain" as regulating the conduct of private citizens. Just my opinion.

And Bowa, I don't agree with your interpretation of this case, but if it actually makes it to the Supreme Court I could see them ruling in favor of Slidell given the fact that judges can pick and choose which analyses they feel like using in this area of law.

"I am inferring the operative word in the phrase is these, but not these in regards to the Bible, these in regards to the laws of the court, of the state of Louisiana, and the United States of America."
Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

This, despite the figure in the painting clearly offering the book to the viewer. It could just as easily be inferred "Obey these (the book's) laws" versus the laws in this particular building.

I am personally sick to death of the Christofacists attempting to shove Christ down the publics throat at every single opportunity.

Bowa, I read your comments at the beginning of the thread...and you're an idiot!

nowhere is the figure in the painting identified as "Jesus" at all.


news.yahoo.com

Look again. He looks like jesus and he has a HALO. You're a schmuck.

Bowa

I'm just supporting freedom---something you are against, so I understand your point of view.

"disallowing governmental establishment of religion"
--JOE


And see that is where we part ways. You think that this harmless picture is somehow an establishment of religion. How "shall make no laws establishing" gets translated into "display no paintings of figures of" is beyond me.

Just as long as there are no Black Stones in the government buildings ~ Only son's of gods allowed!:>)


Black Stone
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Black Stone, surrounded by its silver frame and the black cloth kiswa on the Kaaba in MeccaThis article is about the Islamic holy relic. For the ancient Roman shrine, see Lapis Niger. For the city in Rif Dimashq, Syria, see Al-Hajar al-Aswad.
The Black Stone (called al-Hajar-ul-Aswad in Arabic) is a Muslim object of reverence, said by some to date back to the time of Adam and Eve. It is the eastern cornerstone of the Kaaba, the ancient stone building towards which all Muslims pray, in the center of Masjid al-Haram, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.[1] The Stone is roughly 30 cm (12 in.) in diameter, and 1.5 meters above the ground.[2]

When pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the Tawaf ritual of the Hajj, many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that it received from Muhammad.[3] If they cannot reach it, they are to point to it on each of their seven circuits around the Kaaba.[4]

The Stone is in pieces, from damage which was inflicted during the Middle Ages. It is now held together by a silver frame, which is fastened by silver nails to the Stone.

en.wikipedia.org

like the Mormon's original story on why Cain is black & his sons & daughters have his sin...?:>)


Black Stone

There are varying opinions as to the Stone's history and nature.

Many Muslims believe that the Stone fell from Heaven during the time of Adam and Eve, and that it was once a pure and dazzling white, but has turned black because of the sins it has absorbed over the


en.wikipedia.org

im all for pictures of jesus in a courtroom, as long as we paste the constitution to every jesus on a cross in every church of american.

And Bowa, I don't agree with your interpretation of this case, but if it actually makes it to the Supreme Court I could see them ruling in favor of Slidell given the fact that judges can pick and choose which analyses they feel like using in this area of law

It definitely is one area of the law which lends itself more then most to interpretation.

When you consider that so much of the precedent established in this area doesn't even come directly from the Constitution but from a letter Thomas jefferson wrote in which he used the term "Separation of Church and State",makes it easy to understand why this is such a contentious issue.

For those bible thumpers who have never read the bible:

Second Commandment

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments."


Of course who cares what God says--Christians know better.

He looks like jesus and he has a HALO

You mean he looks just like every self-righteous, atheistic, PC-loving liberal college student on campuses these days.

LOL

How about this pic in a courthouse?

en.wikipedia.org

How about we stop putting religious symbols in the courtroom and focus our attention on LAW? Nah...

Bowa---Jesus is not in the Constution.

The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.
George Washington

www.brainyquote.com

"...he looks just like every self-righteous, atheistic, PC-loving liberal college student on campuses these days."

Oh, god...is it 1967?

If so, that was some gooooooood shit.

Bowa- going to admit the pic is jesus or continue lying?

Your choice, douchebag.

"Of course who cares what God says--Christians know better."
--BUFFALO_BOB


But I was told by liberals not to use the Old Testament? I guess you'll have to take it up when them. You know better.

I'm just supporting freedom-

LOL

Hate to break it to you Bob but calling the large majority of your fellow citizens "UnAmerican" for disagreeing with your view on "gay marriage" and "partial birth abortion" is not "supporting freedom".

"...a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me..."

I'm sure there's a sect out there which believes the "thousands" reference means there will be 1,999,999 or less inhabitants of heaven, since any more and the big guy would have said "millions".

I noticed the framework was done by someone who was secular.

Therefore, there is balance. A secular frame around a religious body.

I like secular frames that way,too.

The Damn ACLU only supports liberals and what is in the liberals best interest.

The ACLU and Rush

The American Civil Liberties Union said state law enforcement officers violated Rush Limbaugh's privacy rights by seizing the conservative radio talk show host's medical records as part of a criminal investigation involving alleged "doctor-shopping."

The ACLU and Oliver North

On May 4, 1989, Oliver North was initially convicted of: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents. He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines, and 1,200 hours community service. However, on July 20, 1990, with the help of the ACLU North's convictions were vacated, after the appeals court found that witnesses in his trial might have been impermissibly affected by his immunized congressional testimony.


The ACLU and Jerry Falwell
A federal judge has struck down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating, in a challenge filed by the Rev. Jerry Falwell and joined by the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, the group announced today. The ACLU joined the lawsuit as a "friend of the court" last fall, challenging the ban on the grounds that it violates the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of free exercise of religion.

The ACLU and Religious Symbols
Facing an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit and outcry from both Jewish and Christian leaders, a Mississippi school board last night rescinded a policy that barred a Jewish student from wearing his Star of David pendant. The reversal comes two working days after the ACLU of Mississippi filed suit in federal district court, seeking protection of 11th grader Ryan Green's First Amendment right to religious liberty. The ACLU said that the Star of David, a cross and other religious symbols are constitutionally protected forms of religious speech and that Ryan and other students at Harrison Central High School should not have to sacrifice their First Amendment rights under threat of school punishment.

"The ACLU's real client is the Bill of Rights and they will continue to safeguard the values of equality, fairness and privacy for everyone, regardless of race, economic status or political point of view."

Bowa- going to admit the pic is jesus or continue lying

I haven't lied. Nor did I ever say it wasn't Jesus. In fact, I know the provenence of the picture and have argued all over this thread that it is irrelevant.

Whether it is Jesus or or not cannot be deciphered from just looking at the image -- or from any text in the immediate area -- there is no cross, no manger, no other iconic scene taken from the New testament, nor any text saying "new testament" on the book the figure is holding.

It is a piece of 16th Century Byzantine Art that one would have look to a secondary source to find out it is Jesus.

Given that, I don't believe a court would find that this painting in this courthouse has crossed over the the line into "impermissible proselytizing" that the SCOTUS recently set.

Live or Die

"But I was told by liberals not to use the Old Testament? I guess you'll have to take it up when them. You know better.

Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2007-07-05 04:23 PM | "


What liberals ever told you that? Liberals are LIBERAL--they say use what you like. It is only religious flip-floppers like yourself who say the OT is not valid when questioned about all the baby killing and murder in the OT---then you say it doesn't count. Until the Ten Commandments come up, then yuu want them in courtrooms---but you don't actually want to read them or follow them. Reading the bible is not really necessary to the righteous, as you know.

Bowa-

I have no doubt that the Supreme court will allow this painting to remain.

The vote will be 5-4.

Does that make it right? No. The Supremes have been tainted by the appointments of George Bush...like everything else he has touched in his Presidency.

You know as well as I that the Founding Fathers intentions were clear. We will not have a State sponsored religion in America.

No How! No Way!

Is it a government Building?

Is it a religiously oriented painting?

Is it State Sponsored?

Then take it down.

This is not a "Christian" Nation it is a nation of ALL religions. I might consider it ok if it were in a row of paintings depicting the evolution of law through the ages.

It is not even that and it is misleading to think that all law originates from the bible.

We don't want to distort the truth do now do we BOWA...or do we?




"It is a piece of 16th Century Byzantine Art that one would have look to a secondary source to find out it is Jesus."

What bullshit. To be expected from Bowas twisted mind. I suppose if you put a guy nailed to a cross in a courthouse, you could say---Many people were crucified---this is not JESUS, this is just art depicting the evils of man in days gone by. That would be bullshit too.

But if it were just art, then they shouldn't mind taking it down since it offends part of the public, and CAN be confused with promoting a particular religion.

"The ACLU's real client is the Bill of Rights and they will continue to safeguard the values of equality, fairness and privacy for everyone, regardless of race, economic status or political point of view."

Posted by kiska

Well, that should settle THAT!:>)


The Secret History of Jerry Falwell
At the same time the Rev. Jerry Falwell was accusing pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays, lesbians, the ACLU and People For the American Way of sharing responsibility for the 9/11 attack the televangelist owed over one million dollars in unpaid loans to the owner of the terror flight school in Florida which trained Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi, the MadCowMorningNews has learned.

href="http:// www.madcowprod.com/ 05182007.html">www.madcowprod.com


The ACLU and Jerry Falwell
A federal judge has struck down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating, in a challenge filed by the Rev. Jerry Falwell and joined by the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, the group announced today. The ACLU joined the lawsuit as a "friend of the court" last fall, challenging the ban on the grounds that it violates the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of free exercise of religion.

www.madcowprod.com

"What liberals ever told you that?"
--BUFFALO_BOOB


AllAmerican and LarryMohr to name a couple.

"Liberals are LIBERAL--they say use what you like."

Talk to the posters on this site about that.

"It is only religious flip-floppers like yourself who say the OT is not valid when questioned about all the baby killing and murder in the OT---then you say it doesn't count. Until the Ten Commandments come up, then yuu want them in courtrooms---but you don't actually want to read them or follow them. Reading the bible is not really necessary to the righteous, as you know."

I think the OT is valid, and don't think I don't question it myself. The same objections you have to it don't sit well with me either. That being said, you who advocate sucking a baby's brains out while its head is still in its mother's vagina hardly have room to complain about baby killings.

As usual you're not really being taken seriously though.

I suppose if you put a guy nailed to a cross in a courthouse, you could say---Many people were crucified---this is not JESUS,

No Bob, and if you read my posts I said that there are iconic images a cross, a manger, etc. that when placed in a courthouse would be in violation of the first amendement.

An image of Christ on a cross is an iconic representation of Jesus that inherently proselytizes Christianity.

The benign figure in the painting does not..

Is it a government Building?

Is it a religiously oriented painting?

Is it State Sponsored?

Then take it down.


That's a very weak argument Donner Boy.

Religious art (or text) does not automatically violate the first amendment and the establishment clause. The context and content must be taken into account and measured as to whther the image or text reflects the state establishment of a specific religion.

The non-religious text in the painting and around it, as well as the lack of any identification of the figure in the painting suggests that it doesn't come close to violating the first amendment.

But I hope the ACLU takes it to court -- it's the type of case that would help the SCOTUS further reduce the overall hostility towards religion that previous courts found in the 1st amendment.

I promise anyone, as an attorney with some establishment clause experience, that there isn't a chance in hell a picture of Christ in the courthouse is going to stay. It is a blatent violation of the establishment clause. The ten commandments placed alongside a number of other "sources" of law without any religious context barely passed constitutional muster on a very conservative court. No way in hell a picture of Jesus on its own stays.

In fact, not only will the district court rule in favor of the ACLU, the fascist 5th Circuit will uphold the decision, and if defendants even bother, there isn't a chance the High Court grant cert. This case will not see the Supreme Court after it is decided in favor of the ACLU. I'd be surprised if they appealed the lower court decision.

"To know peace, obey these laws" with a depiction of Jesus handing over the New Testament is "non-religious text"? Have you gone mad?

"there isn't a chance the High Court grant cert"

What makes you think that? They've regularly taken cases of this nature and might welcome the opportunity to add some clarity to the currently jumbled area of Establishment Clause jurisprudence.

Because it's a picture of JESUS without any other secular context, and they just redrew the line. Not even the 5th Cir. could find a way to justify a picture of jesus in the courthouse. Current establishment clause jurisprudence is not that jumbled to those who study it. No one in their right mind could construe this picture as part of some secular historical display. It is a picture of JESUS. The humerous attempts on this board at grounding a picture of Jesus in some kind of secular historical context is pretty funny though.



I promise anyone, as an attorney with some establishment clause experience....No way in hell a picture of Jesus on its own stays

So this legal eagle thinks a benign picture of a byzantine figure with a halo hung above some non-religious text for a decade in a courthouse violates the establishment clause.

Ok, we shall see.

I highly doubt it. But the way the Lower Courts are, one never knows which way they will rule. Of course, if it gets to the SCOTUS that's a different story. The Roberts Court would definitely allow the picture to stay.

"The non-religious text in the painting and around it, as well as the lack of any identification of the figure in the painting"

Never took Art History 101, did'ya? The figure is quite clearly Christ, it was immediately recognized as Christ by it's painter, and, if you didn't get it from the halo, the look, the pose, and the position of the fingers, the artist spells it out for you---literally, on the pages of the book. It's not a passage from the Torah, it's not from The Book of Morman, hell, it's not even from The Tao of Pooh. It's from the Bible. In art language, there are only two possible figures who could be holding the New Testament---open to this passage---while sporting a halo: Jesus, or the author of the passage, John...and it clearly isn't John, who's iconography always includes writing materials as a nod to his Epistles.

You couldn't identify him as Jesus any clearer if he had a "Hi, my name is..." sticker on his lapel.

Because it's a picture of JESUS without any other secular context, and they just redrew the line. Not even the 5th Cir. could find a way to justify a picture of jesus in the courthouse.

Mclazerlou, the Texas ten commandments case is extremely relevant in a very important way -- the argument that for any text or image to be installed on public land "the motives must be clearly secular, and did not cross the line into impermissible proselytizing."

What made the 10 commandements in Texas "clearly secular" though 4 out of the 10 commandements clearly are not secular and mention God was that the monument was part of a "historical display".

But the "historical display" aspect of the case just served to nullify the obvious religiosity of this specific decalogue display. The ruling didn't mean that all religious images had to be part of a historical display in order to be considered ""clearly secular" that wasn't the real finding.

The real finding in the case is that the SCOTUS set a standard for defining "clearly secular" against "impermissible proselytizing". This allows for the Texas precedent to be worked all sorts of ways.

For example, with the Slidell picture, there are numerous secular aspects to the painting which I have mentioned many times on this thread -- all those put together add up to enough reasons to nullify any obvious religiosity in the picture in the same way that the historical grouping the Decalogue was part of at the Texas Capitol served to nullify the obvious religiosity of the Ten Commandments.

That's whythe Court would find in favor of the Slidell courthouse and allow the picture to stay.

You couldn't identify him as Jesus any clearer if he had a "Hi, my name is..." sticker on his lapel.

Except that he didn;t have his name anywhere near the painting.

BOWA,

I'll bet you a lot of money that not only would the Roberts Court not allow this picture of Jesus to stay, they won't even grant the case certiorari. Your better bet is on the 5th cir. And I'll bet you they don't allow it. Moreover I'll bet you a lot of money that the Defense is not so retarded as you are as to claim the picture is not jesus. That argument might work for right wing retards with their heads in the sand, but not in a court of law.

Religion belongs is a house of worship and that is it. Sorry but I don't want to see or here about your bogus religious beliefs.

BOWA. One more time. It's a picture of JESUS. Jesus is important to one religion and one religion only. The picture is not part of a secular display on the history of American law. It stands alone. And it is a picture of JESUS.

I promise you as someone who apparently understands a lot more about fact finding in a legal setting, if a ten commandments display, which at least is relevant to more than one religion and has something to do with laws directly, cannot be constured as a secular display on its own, a picture of jesus will not either.

Just remeber how dumb you are in a few months when you are proven wrong. Unreasonable arguments like yours (not jesus!?! Jesus.) don't go far when there are rational people evaluating them. And please, never ever go to law school, not that you'e ever be let into one.

I'll bet you a lot of money that the Defense is not so retarded as you are as to claim the picture is not jesus. That argument might work for right wing retards with their heads in the sand, but not in a court of law.

LOL

I'm not claiming it is not Jesus. I'm claiming that the image is benign enough so that any religiosity that would cause it to be seen as crossing the line into "impermissible proselytizing." is nullified by it's many secular qualities icluding that whether it is Jesus or not cannot be deciphered from just looking at the image or from any text in the immediate area -and must come from a secondary source --- there is no cross, no manger, no other iconic scene taken from the New testament, nor any text saying "new testament" on the book the figure is holding. The text in the book and below the painting are not religious and, in sharp contrast to the 10 commandemnts, do not mention God in any way.

I will grant that a figure with a halo, and an open book, above the words "Obey these laws" may help the ACLU convince a judge that people coming into the Slidell courthouse will look at the picture and believe that it is telling them to follow the laws of Christianity instead of the secular laws of the United States then that certainly would meet the standard for "impermissible proselytizing" that the SCOTUS recently set.

Hard case to make though.

Especially with Bryers concurrence on the Texas case which said, "If these factors provide a strong, but not conclusive, indication that the Commandments' text on this monument conveys a predominantly secular message, a further factor is determinative here. As far as I can tell, 40 years passed in which the presence of this monument, legally speaking, went unchallenged (until the single legal objection raised by petitioner). And I am not aware of any evidence suggesting that this was due to a climate of intimidation. Hence, those 40 years suggest more strongly than can any set of formulaic tests that few individuals, whatever their system of beliefs, are likely to have understood the monument as amounting, in any significantly detrimental way, to a government effort to favor a particular religious sect, primarily to promote religion over nonreligion, to "engage in" any "religious practic[e]," to "compel" any "religious practic[e]," or to "work deterrence" of any "religious belief." Schempp, 374 U. S., at 305 (Goldberg, J., concurring).

The painting has been up for a decade unchallenged.

Are you implying that a picture of JESUS with no other context but provides a "strong but not conclusive" secular message? Are you insane? Please don't even go to lawschool. And please flog yourself when you are proven an legal idiot.

Just remeber how dumb you are in a few months when you are proven wrong.

So people who are "proven wrong" are dumb?

Mclazerlou, What a strange and ridiculous comment for a lawyer to make considering the whole structure of our legal system is based on confrontation in which one side wins and one side loses -- so does that mean when you lose you are dumb, and when you win you are smart?

Does that make all the liberlas on the SCOTUS mostly dumb , and all the Conservatives mostly smart?

is that what you are saying?

If the ACLU wins, then they win -- it doesn't make my argument any less legally valid or reasonable -- it means that whoever presided did not accept my argument over the opposing one. It certianly doesn't make me "dumb" because a third party didn't agree with me. Nor would it make me "smart" if a third party agreed with me -- to suggest it does is a ridiculous construct.

America has always had God in its traditions. I believe in separation of church and state -- AND separation of mosque and state too (which means no taxpayer funded Muslim footbaths).

Christian beliefs (not the radical Fundamentalists which I think have tried to take over other regular Christian-based religions) have been in American tradition and heritage since the Pilgrims set foot on this land to escape religious persecution.

So far the U.S. dollar does not state "In Allah we Trust" (but just give it time) and ,like it or not, Christmas and Easter and Christmas caroles and Nativity sets and all the rest of it is here to stay -- like it or not.

I think this earlier post sums it up best:

Also-no more stupid foot-baths in goverment funded location...like public colleges. No Jesus picture and no foot baths. End of story. I dont know why this is such an issue. If its religious...keep it at home or in the Church.

The picture does not hurt anyone nor do the footbaths but if you don't want one you can't have the other. It either a religious free for all or a complete separation....Ill take separate

Posted by captainOface at 2007-07-05 02:44 PM | Re


No dumb is someone who admits the picture is of Jesus but who argues:

"it's many secular qualities icluding that whether it is Jesus or not cannot be deciphered from just looking at the image or from any text in the immediate area -and must come from a secondary source --- there is no cross, no manger, no other iconic scene taken from the New testament, nor any text saying "new testament" on the book the figure is holding. The text in the book and below the painting are not religious and, in sharp contrast to the 10 commandemnts, do not mention God in any way."

That is dumb and contradictory. You can;t admit the picture is jesus and then rely on the fact that it might not be jesus for fact finding purposes. That is not only stupid it is confused.

And yes, while there are close calls in law that could save one from being considered "dumb" by taking the losing side, this is certainly not one of these cases. There is plenty of room for idiocy in the law, as you show. "I'm not claiming it's not jesus, but it doesn't say it's jesus anywhere" is a DUMB argument that would be laughed out of court.

If this case gets to the High Court, and it won't, the case will be decided 8-1 or 7-2. Maybe even 9-0. Do us all a favor and go watch Hannity and stop thinking Bowa.

Are you implying that a picture of JESUS with no other context but provides a "strong but not conclusive" secular message? Are you insane? Please don't even go to lawschool. And please flog yourself when you are proven an legal idiot.

Oh, Mclazerlou, Why do I get the feeling you said the same thing to anyone who said the SCOTUS would have allowed the Decalogue on grounds of the Texas capitol. I mean how can "Thou shall have No other Gods before me" ever be considered part of a a "strong but not conclusive" secular message. But it was.

LOL

The times they are a changin'.

For the better. At least at the SCOTUS level.

There is a simple enough way to settle this. If there is to be a religious image on the courthouse wall then it should be the image that represents the official religion of the United States.

No, it wasn't. The religious content of the 10 commandments was rendered moot because that content, religious or not, was being dispalyed for its historical value alongside other historical sources of laws, both secular and religious. The whole display was secular and had a secular educational purpose as a part of history. A Picture of jesus with the new testament with a sign that says "obey these laws" underneath cannot be construed by anyone anywhere as having a secular context. The picture of jesus and its religious connotations stands on its own here and is not part of some larger display that has an ostensible secular purpose (religious content notwithstanding).

BOWA, you don't think well if you cite the fact that the 10 commandments are religious as support of your failure of an argument. Indeed a display of the 10 commandments on its own, God refereneces and all, has repeatedly been held unconstitutional precisely becasue of those God references.

So by your own reasoning your argument fails, unles syou can point out the secualr context in which this religious picture is being displayed. And we know you can't do that.

Perhaps you should turn on Fox News and stop trying to think. Otherwise you continue to make yourself look dumber than a box of rocks.

You can;t admit the picture is jesus and then rely on the fact that it might not be jesus for fact finding purposes.

I never said that. What kind of lawyer are you. Not too swift on the reading comprehension.

I said, that unless someone found out from a secondary source that the painting is of Jesus there is no way to tell for sure by just glancing at it -- the figure in the painting is not marked, it is benign -- there are no crosses or other iconic identifiers (such as stigmata) that inherently "proselytize' Christianity. The book doesn't even say "New Testament" on it.

So by your own reasoning your argument fails, unles syou can point out the secualr context in which this religious picture is being displayed. And we know you can't do that.

I've already explained my argument in my 6:12 and 6:30 posts.

To summarize, The mere hanging of a religious looking picture without any other identifers is not automatically in violation of the first amendment especially when it is hung above a piece of obvioulsy secular text and has been there a decade without challenge.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Perhaps you should turn on Fox News and stop trying to think. Otherwise you continue to make yourself look dumber than a box of rocks.

In my experience, it is people who are dismissive of others, disrespectful quick to namecall, and rude who are both ignorant and intolerant.

Give it up Bowa. It's Freaking Jesus. Fairytales belong in home and houses of worship not in a public building. Taxpayers have the right to be free from anothers beliefs.

Bani, as I recall, Bill Maher describes himself as being half-Jewish. So he sees it as a racial thing, I suppose.

But in regards to there actually being Yahweh, he doesn't accept that at all.

There is nothing to disagree about. You are a totally confused or disingenuous. Take your pick.

You claim that this picture of jesus is merely "religious looking without any identifiers." You say you are "not claiming the picture isn't jesus," just that it might not be? Is that your argument? really is it? Can it be?

You are an idiot. QED

But let's assume for the sake of argument that as a matter of fact, a court finds that this is indeed a picture of jesus holding the new testament (which, uncontroversally, it is). This would render the "secular" message beneath it not so seacualr right? Would you still have the audacity to contend this picture and the messaeg beneath it has a secular purpose and wouldn't violate establishment clause jurisprudence in its current form? Do you?

I would LOVE to have a case against you. There is a reason that the Fox News set is the least well-informed group of news consumers in the country, behind readers of USA Today. They can hardly think straight.

Sorry Bowa-

It IS a picture of Jesus and it IS religious in nature and even worse it gives the impression that our laws are based on the bible and Jesus's sayings which they most certainly are NOT.

Our laws and Christian teachings do coincide in many ways. But, our laws do NOT come FROM the bible.

Government buildings are no place for religious paintings or icons of any sort.

Either allow ALL of them (not feasible) or allow NONE of them...(more reasonable).

For this reason it should be taken down.

Having said that... it is a good test case and I fear if it does go to the Supremes it will go 5-4 in favor of the painting be allowed.

But, that is because I have lost all my faith in the Supremes lately. They have been tainted by BushCo.

Bowa would be the first in line to complain if he walked in court and another religious deity was on display. Typical conservative who thinks Christianity should be rammed down everyones throat.

Oh I'm intolerant of fools who make such stellar arguments that a painting of jesus is secular because it doesn't explicitly identify the subject is jesus. Granted.

As for ignorance, you have that market cornered.

The real issue here is are they denying other pictures, for example Mohammad, to be hung in the public buildings.

If so the picture needs to be removed.

Actually, no, Moneywar. that isn't the real issue. This isn't an equal protection case or a free exercise case. They could be allowing all religions equal time on the wall along with jesus, and it still would be a establishment clause violation. The promotion of religion itself, any religion, is a violation of the establishment clause equal time paid to each ghost story or not.

Yes, those crazy old laws, that choose to "coincide" with Christianity. What an amazing non-significant event.

That being said, you who advocate sucking a baby's brains out while its head is still in its mother's vagina hardly have room to complain about baby killings.

As usual you're not really being taken seriously though.

Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2007-07-05 04:47 PM


It is you who are fighting against this procedure so that instead of the brains being sucked out in the Birth canal, the brains are sucked out while still in the womb, and then the whole body is dismembered in the womb and removed. I doubt you knew that will be the result of a ban on so-called Partial Birth Abortions.

Fortunately, the procedure is often performed on DEAD fetuses that were WANTED by the woman. I doubt you knew that too.

In the other instances that so-called Partial-Birth abortions are performed, they are performed only to save the mother life. Not that you actually care about a human life. Fetal life is all that concerns you.

No other circumstances are legal.

But since you hate freedom and think you should be able to tell everyone else how to live while waving a flag, I doubt that any of this makes any difference to you. Now tell everyone how much you love America and Freedom. See how many believe your lies.

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

The ACLU is a Communist-leaning organization, its founder leaned Communistic and this organization is decidedly ANTI-American.

They are continually trying to destroy everything about this country.

ACLU -- ANTI-AMERICAN THUGS

This picture is insignificant. Fine to keep out of the courthouse, even given that's true.

What interests me far more is this weird attempt by some to distance themselves from ambient cultural forces.

As far as I can tell, a good atheist would strive to act like a good Christian. You might ask youselves if they arrived at that place all by their rational lonesomes.

To summarize, The mere hanging of a religious looking guy on a cross without any other identifers is not automatically in violation of the first amendment especially when it is hung above a piece of obvioulsy secular text and has been there a decade without challenge.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Bowa

" the figure in the painting is not marked, "

Bullshit. The figure in the painting is CLEARLY marked, to anyone who's ever studied the subject. The pose, the book, the halo, and the position of the fingers are all givaways. You may not understand the iconographic language of the time, but anyone who's taken any Art History will tell you with no uncertainty, name on the painting or not, that is Jesus.

Or are you claiming it's John? If so, where's his iconography?

Califchris


People like you are destroying this country. Get the fuck out you freedom hating zombie. I'd rather have a hundred illegals than a POS like you for a neighbor.

The ACLU is the only organization between us a total anarchy. Congress is gone. The Presidency is gone. The only thing left is vultures like you picking over the bones.

Yes, it's Bob and the ACLU against flocks of zombie avian scavangers. When the DVD comes out, I'll rent it.

Are those the fast-moving vulture zombies or the slow-moving ones?

QUESTION FOR ANYBODY --

A serious question so anybody who can answer it is fine.

I'm Catholic, raised in Catholic schools the whole bit. When I was growing up -- mostly out West -- I don't recall everybody being referred to only as "Christians" People back then were Catholics or Protestants or Episcoplians or Jewish or Lutherans, etc.

Now it seems like there is no inbetween. I don't fit in with the more radical fundamentalist Falwell-type groups but whenever someone talks about "Christians" they lump everyone who believes in Christ in with them. How come? It isn't only atheists or Christian fundementalists who get a say. Where do I fit in as a Catholic? I believe in Christ but that doesn't put me in the radical fundementalist camp.

I share your confusion, Chris. I don't know any Christian radicals.

"They are continually trying to destroy everything about this country.

ACLU -- ANTI-AMERICAN THUGS"

You're getting nuttier everyday Chris. Maybe you ought to join the John Birch Society. You'd fit right in. Plus, it's all white people!

Cali,

It puts you in the POP fundemental camp.





Protectors of Pedophiles.

"People like you are destroying this country. Get the fuck out you freedom hating zombie. I'd rather have a hundred illegals than a POS like you for a neighbor."

Well said, Bob. If not out of this country, at least Chris could move to lily white North Dakota so we wouldn't have to listen to his constant whining about brown people in California.

BuffaloBILE --

I just now saw your idiotic 7:46 p.m. post.

I forgotten to add to the title of my 7:53 p.m. "QUESTION FOR ANYBODY" post the following "...EXCEPT for BuffaloBile, Bill-O'Reilly, and other assorted turds".

GOD left a message for you that He wrote in the clouds.

MESSAGE FOR BUFFALOBRAINS FROM GOD

All christians are radically mentally ill. However, the same disease affects the majority of mankind in some form or another from the disease of christianity or the disease of any other religion, it all comes down to a delusional mental illness. Just because the majority have this illness, doesn't mean it isn't a disease.

The disease isn't a belief in a god. The disease is the statement of a belief in a god while acting like a son of satan.

The biblical god is easily proven false since its stories can be traced to older discarded religions. However, the delusional persist in their delusions. That is mental illness.

Being consciously mean and insulting a symptom of anything, do you think?

"To Know Peace, Obey These Laws."?

Could be interpreted as a threat.

ie. If you aint a Christian you will not "know peace" in this court.

Ridiculous?

Almost as ridiculous as Bowa's specious claims that this isn't neccessarily Jesus, and that it may actually be the latest copy of FHM JC's carrying, not the New Testament.

This is a clear cut seperation of church and state issue at a time when the wall between them is crumbling.

Take it down or find some kinda solution that pleases everybody.

Here's one.

The thing's been up over ten years w/o a complaint?

Great! Jesus' turn is over, now let some other God have a chance to play.

Next up? Yahweh, 10 years of a Jewish Deity.

Then ya gotta follow Him up with Mohammed fer another decade, followed by the Buddha and Confucious and Julius Caeser and The Flying Spagetti Monster and Odin and Ra and Eric Clapton etc etc.

That's fair, eh?

The Caption beneath the FSM should read.

"To Know Noodles, Obey the Sauce"

Be Well.

How come? Becasue the Christian right has successfully infiltrated the governemnt with the hope of turning back the clock on our constitutional freedoms. See e.g. Monica Goodling. It is only very recently that they have been successful. They want to roll back civil rights that have been established in the last 60 years. They want to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us and admit so unapologetically. Our civil rights have been rolled back for the first time in a long time with this High Court, and that should scare you shitless as an American.

I mean if you believe that God impregnates women miraculously and sacrifices the offspring for our sin original or not, the indepedence of your mind is called into question right there. However, If you believe that the earth is 6000 years old, you probably can't distinguish between what is religious faith and what is an ethical argument that can be universally accepted by all as law.

That being said, JFK and Kerry were both catholics able to distinguish what tehir faith says from what the law should be. Are you one of those? Doubtful if you think the American Civil Liberties Union is anti-american.

"..EXCEPT for BuffaloBile, Bill-O'Reilly, and other assorted turds".

One word for you Chris: Idaho.

BILLY O'BIGOT


Well said, Bob. If not out of this country, at least Chris could move to lily white North Dakota so we wouldn't have to listen to his constant whining about brown people in California.

You're full of crap. HOW COME I NEVER ONCE saw you stick up on any war thread in defense of innocent Iraqi citizens -- some of the "brown people" you love to describe, you closeted bigot -- NOT ONCE have you ever spoken up on their behalf.

You must be anti-Muslim and anti-brown people, O'Reilly. I have done a thousand posts against Bush's illegal war in Iraq and spoken a zillion times on behalf of the innocent Iraqi civilians (aka "brown people" to you) who were killed.

BUT NOT ONE SINGLE POST BY O'REILLY against the Iraq war or against Bush killing hundreds of thousands of "brown people." I have continually bashed Bush for what he did to those people and their country.

WHERE IS ONE SINGLE ANTI-WAR IN IRAQ POST FROM YOU, O'REILLY???? ONE????? Guess you must hate brown Iraqi people then because I don't recall you ever sticking up for all the innocent people there who have been killed in Iraq with Bush's NEOCON agenda.

Please, Billly O'Racist, don't hate the brown people of Iraq.

Idaho, Chris. The Aryan Nation is up there. They'd welcome you with open arms. Go Northwest young man!

That being said, JFK and Kerry were both catholics able to distinguish what tehir faith says from what the law should be. Are you one of those? Doubtful if you think the American Civil Liberties Union is anti-american.


Posted by mclazerlou at 2007-07-05 08:10 PM | Reply


Yes, I am, and thank you for a very insightful post. I know the far Christian right is the more extreme end. My initial question, though, was how come it seems the media, etc., lump ALL Christian faiths in together with the far right Christians?

Idaho, Chris. The Aryan Nation is up there. They'd welcome you with open arms. Go Northwest young man!

Posted by Bill_OReilly at 2007-07-05 08:16 P


Again, Billy O'Bigot skirts around the question why he has never defended innocent civilian brown-skinned Iraqis being killed by the hundreds of thousands due to Bush's illegal war over there.

Certainly, with ALL the Iraq war threads on DR there must be at least ONE post where you have commented about your outrage on hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians -- innocent brown people -- dying in Bush's 'pre-emptive war" based on lies? Surely, there must be ONE post somewhere posted by O'Bigot. I have hundreds of posts on here defending innocent Iraqis and expressing outrage at Bush's illegal war. Billy O'Bigot apparently has NONE. Is it because they are Muslims and their skin is brown, Billy O'Bigotboy?

Bowa would be the first in line to complain if he walked in court and another religious deity was on display.

That's not true. if it was as benign as the painting in Slidell I would have no problem with it --for example a painting of Confucius with his books emphasizing moral government, or a Hindu deity that stands for Justice.

Well I don't think the media is to blame. Quite honestly the blame lies with teh Christian right itself and the republican party who thanks to Karl Rove ascended to power by appealing to/ exploiting the christian right. The Bush administration has a black and white attitude about policy and the world at large. Indeed it was shown in a study that Republicans think in stark contrasts and lack intellectual nuance moreso than liberals.

And with teh war on terror, Bush has needed an US v. Them attitude. "us" being christians and "them" being muslims.

So blame the right wing. They organized religious people poltically by appealing to an us v them mentality and by appealing to divisive wedge issues like abortion and gay marriage. Part of their success has been the effect about which you complain: lumping not only all christians together, but all religious people (other than muslims of course) together in hopes of advancing the agenda of the rich by piggybacking conservatibve social issues on their platform that appeal to the lowermiddle class religious folks in those fly-over states that have small state political welfare in the senate and in the electoral college.

I would LOVE to have a case against you.

Mclazerlou, Given your poor reading comprehension, arrogance, elitism, intolerance and quick temper -- I would love to have a case against you as well.

If merely stating my opinion gets you so unnerved that you immediately resort to derision and namecalling, I can only imagine how poor you must be in a courtroom.

It would take me about a half a second to push your buttons enough to make you lose your cool and get you off your game -- and it doesn't seem you have much of one anyway.

err, yeah right ~ james bowie...

Box of rocks.

"Again, Billy O'Bigot skirts around the question why he has never defended innocent civilian brown-skinned Iraqis being killed by the hundreds of thousands due to Bush's illegal war over there. "

That's right, Chris. Everybody knows I'm a big supporter of Bush and his imperialist war in Iraq. Moron.

Oh how you pushed my buttons! Seriously though Mr. Box of Rocks, assume for the sake of argument that a court finds as a matter of fact that the painting is of jesus holding the new testament. In your expert legal opinion, do we still have a permissable display?

Just answer that and prove your intellectual worth(lessness).

Only another 150 or so posts to go till we hit the magic 500 level and I win a blender. Whoop whoop!

Mclazerlou, it is obvious that you are upset because the courts have begun to show less hostility to religion in the public square.

In reality however, it's only been the last few decades that people with your intolerant mindset have tried to remove all religious images and text from it make a draconian separation of church and state that goes far beyond what the founding fathers intended.

Consider that for well over 75 years the McGuffey reader, filled with bible passages, was the primary textbook throughout the US which was used to teach children to read.

Given that, how can you possibly deny the historical relevence of religious thought, text, views and images in relation to secular objectives.


I'm not saying we should return to the McGuffey reader (though a lot of conservatives do), but over the past few decades the pendulum swung way too far in the other direction, demonizing anything religious -- now we are seeing it begin to swing back. That is a very good thing.

I don't know if the Slidell painting will prove to be the test case for further reducing the hostility the courts have had towards religion in recent times -- but it certainly seems like a good one to use.

Well, here's one for OOHRAH's future blender:>)


The Supremely Disappointing Court



Posted on Jul 5, 2007
By Ellen Goodman

BOSTON--Let me wish the Supreme Court justices a fond farewell as they set out on their summer vacation. We can all rest assured now that they won't do any more damage until the first week in October.

And a special shout-out to Clarence Thomas, who may embark on his annual road trip in his 40-foot motor home knowing that he's accomplished one life goal. The justice is now talked about even less in terms of race--less as the profligate successor to Thurgood Marshall than as a certified member of the court's right wing. Color him conservative.

One of the last things the court did on its way out the door was to strike down the voluntary integration plans in the public schools of Seattle and Louisville. The plurality had the gall to invoke the famous desegregation decision, Brown v. Board of Education, to justify rolling back integration.

www.truthdig.com

Clarence Rocks & most likely would support Bowy:>)

assume for the sake of argument that a court finds as a matter of fact that the painting is of jesus holding the new testament. In your expert legal opinion, do we still have a permissable display?

If the court finds that it would be reasonable to assume that people without prior knowledge of the painting's provenance would look at it and think that it is a picture of Jesus holding up the new testament above words on the wall which say "Obey these laws" -- then no I do not think the display would be permissable.

Alternately, if the court finds as a matter of fact that the image is benign for those many reasons I have laid out in previous posts then it will be deemed permissable.

The whole case turns on whether or not an unnamed 16th century byzantine figure with a halo holding an unmarked book is immediately recognizable as Jesus and the new testament.

"Religion belongs is a house of worship and that is it. Sorry but I don't want to see or here about your bogus religious beliefs."
--BYRDMAN


Sorry, but I will not stop expressing my Christianity in public just because thin skinned people like you are insecure in their own beliefs and can't stand seeing opposing views.

One more for OORAH's blender...

"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

-President George H. W. Bush (the First), during an August 27, 1987 interview by Rob Sherman

How many people who would view this painting and not know who it is? 3% of the population at best.

Not a leg to stand on, again, I suspect the issue is far bigger. Another symbol had to be denied so it was moved into the courts.

I would be mad as hell at my local officials for even letting it get this far, wasting tax dollars trying to defend such.

Remove the dam thing and stop wasting public money.

Further, if I had a time sensitive case and it was delayed in anyway because of this I would be takin the local officials to court for the waste and cost.

"It is you who are fighting against this procedure so that instead of the brains being sucked out in the Birth canal, the brains are sucked out while still in the womb, and then the whole body is dismembered in the womb and removed. I doubt you knew that will be the result of a ban on so-called Partial Birth Abortions."
--BUFFALO_BOOB


I'm against the sucking of brains from any viable baby whether in the womb or out. Anything that stops people from sucking baby's brains out of their heads is good in my opinion, and if there is a loophole that allows it to continue, then it should be closed.

"Fortunately, the procedure is often performed on DEAD fetuses that were WANTED by the woman. I doubt you knew that too.

In the other instances that so-called Partial-Birth abortions are performed, they are performed only to save the mother life. Not that you actually care about a human life. Fetal life is all that concerns you.

No other circumstances are legal."


So you're pro-choice only in the cases where the mother's life is at risk? Because if so we might have some things we actually agree on. Also, it would help your credibility if you had links to back that stuff up. Not saying they aren't out there, but just that it would help you not look like a boob. I asked this of another poster and they gave me that, "well... where's YOUR proof!" crap. Doesn't fly; you made the claim, you back it up.

"But since you hate freedom and think you should be able to tell everyone else how to live while waving a flag, I doubt that any of this makes any difference to you. Now tell everyone how much you love America and Freedom. See how many believe your lies."
--BUFFALO_BOB


Now you're just being cranky. Time for your nap so you can get back to watching that dot.

"MESSAGE FOR BUFFALOBRAINS FROM GOD"
--CALIFCHRIS


Nice.

"The whole case turns on whether or not an unnamed 16th century byzantine figure with a halo holding an unmarked book is immediately recognizable as Jesus and the new testament."

AWESOME. Glad this is what the whole case turns on. A non-issue. You see why you are dumber than a box of rocks?

I'll tell you what. I'll donate a $1000 to the RNC if the defendants advance this argument. "No sir, we didn't think it was jesus. We thought it was an unnamed 16th century figure." I'll donate another grand if the court actually considers it.

You think defendants will argue the picture isn't of jesus? Do you really? Do you think a court would actually consider this claim? Seriously.

You should apologize to any children you may have had for your genes.

"Becasue the Christian right has successfully infiltrated the governemnt"
--MCLAZERLOU


Democracy sucks don't it?

make the check go to Dr. Ron Paul...at least he's sanier than the rest of the Republican nominees:>)


Unbelieveable Censorship of Ron Paul at a Marlins Game

A Ron Paul meetup group went to a Florida Marlins baseball game and were actually told by security that since their signs read "Ron Paul 2008" they could not show them!!

www.calgary911truth.org

Apparently the complaint came from the FOX network.

Are you a hate filled anti-Christian liberal? Or a hate file-filled evangelical member of the Christian right?

Be honest now.

If you saw this photo in a courthouse:

upload.wikimedia.org

Would you believe that "Confucianism" was being forced upon you as a state sponsored religion? Or would you believe that the image reflected primarily a historical embodiment of justice?

If you saw this photo in a courthouse:

upload.wikimedia.org

Would you believe that "Hinduism" was being forced upon you as a state sponsored religion? Or would you believe that the image reflected primarily a historical embodiment of justice?

If you saw this photo in a courthouse:

www.wdsu.com

Would you believe that "Christianity" was being forced upon you as a state sponsored religion? Or would you believe that the image reflected primarily a historical embodiment of justice?

Yes democracy can suck big time. It may not be the answer or the ideal form of government when the masses are uneducated and overly religious, quite clearly. Ask the people in the Gaza strip who were so ignorant, religious and uneducated they voted for Hamas. Democracy really sucked for them. Allah will make my toilet work!

I like Zeus in Minneapolis Courthouse & was raised thinking that was/is really cool, so the JC picture is a tad weird to me in a Government Building to be honest...


But GW is a Christian, too...only 700,000 Iraqi's murdered so far since he began to share his compassion ~ like JC's to the world...


In his final major speech at the Ohio State University just over a year ago, Vonnegut offered further insights on the Bush presidency, clarifying the fact that "The only difference between Bush and Hitler is that Hitler was elected."

www.prisonplanet.com

You think defendants will argue the picture isn't of jesus? Do you really? Do you think a court would actually consider this claim? Seriously.

Mclazerlou, Your reading comprehension is pretty bad. Hard to believe you are a lawyer. Nowhere have I ever denied that the picture is of Jesus. What I have argued is that because it requires the observer to discover it is Jesus from a secondary source helps to nullify the overall religiosity of the painting.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

I think the Slidell lawyers will advance a number of arguments -- one of which is that since the figure is not named, and not of a readily identified presentation of Jesus as say "Jesus on the Cross", Jesus in a manger", Jesus at Gethsemene" etc. would be that the overall image is left open to interpretation and does not cross the line into "impermissable prosyletizing" that was a standard established by the Texas 10 commandments case.

looks like JC absolutely for sure...but maybe down south they might get confuse after Katrina:>)

Again, how many people looking at the picture would not depict it as Jesus?

BOWA seems to miss this point for his hopeful wishing.

The fact there could be a misconception of justice being served in a religious connotation suggests this should be removed.

The fact that BOWA knows this and yet advocates for its retention is telling as to his entire concept of religion and state.

Buff Bob was quite correct on another thread about the likes of BOWA. The are Americans who lack the ability to be American.

Again Bowa, the establishment clause is violated if the state is promoting "religion" in general, not just some specific religion. And it certainly does not have to rise to level of "state sponsorship" of one particular religion for it to violate the establishment clause.

Why is it so important to you to maintain religious images and messages in public places? I think people who long for state recognition of religion do so because they know in their hearts their beliefs are full of shit and want to see some authorty embrace it.

only 127 worthy posts to get OOPRAH's blender:>)

Why is it so important to you to maintain religious images and messages in public places?

Because I believe that when the 1st amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" it was put there to prevent this nation from having an official state sponsored religion similar to the "Church of England" and was never meant to keep religious text or iconography out of the public domain. That the Left has perverted the intent of the founders is one of the tragic developments of the 1960's.

I have always believed this by the way, even when I was younger and considered myself an agnostic. I have become a Christian in recent years -- though I am not evangelical by any means.

BOWA. So you admit the picture is of Jesus, and you admit that if it is of Jesus, it would violate the establishment clause. Thanks for clearing that up. Want to play again?


So your brilliant analysis is that it's not you who thinks the pic isn't of Jesus, it's just that a court might? Is that what you are arguing? That defendants can get up before a court of law and argue with a striaght face the picture is of an unnamed 16th century figure becasue it doesn't explcitly say it's jesus?

It's like arguing that someone who holds up a liquor store might argue the gun is a sculpture. "No sir, I wasn't holding a gun. It was a piece of fine art."

Wow.You take yourself seriously?

Again Bowa, the establishment clause is violated if the state is promoting "religion" in general, not just some specific religion.

Hopefully, this won't last much longer. And with the SCOTUS we have now I am optimistic that in the next few years the Establishment Clause will be redefined to be more in line with the Founders original intent again.

There are many reasons to vote republican in 2008, and keeping the SCOTUS moving to the right is in the top three.

QED

-- though I am not evangelical by any means.

Posted by Bowa

cough...OK Bowa if you say so:>)

So you admit the picture is of Jesus, and you admit that if it is of Jesus, it would violate the establishment clause. Thanks for clearing that up. Want to play again?

Dont put words in my mouth. I gave you my answer with certain qualifications that I don't believe will be met.

It's like arguing that someone who holds up a liquor store might argue the gun is a sculpture. "No sir, I wasn't holding a gun. It was a piece of fine art.

That's a dumb analogy. Are you sure you are a lawyer.

So your brilliant analysis is that it's not you who thinks the pic isn't of Jesus, it's just that a court might? Is that what you are arguing?

That's not what I am arguing. I already told you what I am arguing. here I will cut-n-past froma previous post. Read slower this time so maybe you wiull understand it.

What I have argued is that because the painting is not labelled, or the figure specifically named it requires the observer to discover it is Jesus from a secondary source which helps to nullify the overall religiosity of the painting.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

I think the Slidell lawyers will advance a number of arguments -- one of which is that since the figure is not named, and not of a readily identified presentation of Jesus as say "Jesus on the Cross", Jesus in a manger", Jesus at Gethsemene" etc. would mean that the overall image is left open to interpretation and does not cross the line into "impermissable prosyletizing" that was a standard established by the recent Texas 10 commandments case.

A historical presentation of Jesus which does not make any attempt to identify Him, but puts his image instead in the context of universal ideals regarding law and justice, does not violate the establishment clause -- neither would a unnamed presentation of Confucius or of Varuna, the ancient hindu God of Justice -- all are legitimate historical representations that embody, wisdom, fairness, justice and law.

BVut we shall see what happens. The courthouse has till Monday to take down the painting, I hope they don't -- this wil make for an interesting case as it winds itself through the courts.

It's like arguing that someone who holds up a liquor store might argue the gun is a sculpture. "No sir, I wasn't holding a gun. It was a piece of fine art.

M

FF

picture of JC is like a loaded gun...WOW!

Muslims feel that way, though...I bet elsewhere in the world:>)

Okay, I failed to read 2/3 of the posts so please forgive if I'm treading upon old path.

I have a question for all the liberals here (well for everyone I guess). How do you feel about depections of Lady Justice in our public courthouses? You know she's a Roman Goddess right? And in just about every courthouse in the country. Should the ACLU be sueing to remove those as well?
Posted by bluefacetwp at 2007-07-05 09:34 AM


I am all the liberals, and the answer is juxtapose images and icons with modern concepts of justice, fairness and legality.

In other words - any and all art will still represent the concepts, some come with more baggage like images of Jesus.

While Christians may prefer to not allow their deity to be iconified, many do, going so far as to recreate the "stations of the cross" and symbolically cannibalize Christ every Saturday or Sunday. Distasteful as these practice might seem on the surface they actually belie transmutation of the same respect for protocol and tradition as is relied upon by the etiquette of the court system. When being sworn-in we even place our honor upon the Bible, regardless it's purposeful religious meanings, vowing to be truthful upon it's "good nature as our own", not necessarily the language or content of it's making. Regardless the continual marriage of religion and law (pun, if you will), like the peace pipe or the black robes and gavel - symbology holds meaning strictly by our particular association with them.

Imo, no religious art is without inherent duplicity, but honestly this image of Christ is appropriate, although it does come with unintended context. Besides which, it's actually an interesting piece providing more richness to the locale.

"What I have argued is that because the painting is not labelled, or the figure specifically named it requires the observer to discover it is Jesus from a secondary source which helps to nullify the overall religiosity of the painting.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?"


BECAUSE IT MAY BE THE DUMBEST THING I'VE READ IN A LONG LONG TIME.

Like I said, teh RNC will get money if the defendant makes this argument.

Well you admitted that you think the picture is of jesus, and you admitted that if a court found the picture is of jesus, it would be an establishment clause violation. So your argument boils down to "a court might not think the pic is of jesus because it is not labeled as such, and thus this shouldn't be an establishment clause violation.


Why not be intellectually honest and admit your initial argument is total Bullshit - not even YOU believe your own argument for God's sake. Why not be honest and just say what it is you are arguing. This is an establishment clause violation without a doubt, you just wish in your fearful little heart that it wasn't because you have an ignorant notion of the intent of the Founding Fathers.

Here's a clue: Franklin, Hamilton and Jefferson thought people likeyou were idiotic sheep blindly submissive to dogma. Idiots like you are why they put the establishment clause in there.
And with that I bid you adieu! good luck rocks. You'll need it.

I haven't lied. Nor did I ever say it wasn't Jesus.

Posted by Bowa at 2007-07-05 04:36 PM | Reply | Flag:


I saw a photo the painting -- how would anyone know that it is Jesus or cme to believe that the book he is holding is the new testament.

Jesus' name appears nowhere on the painting, and the message in the book written in Russian Cyrillic, "judge not according to appearance but judge with righteous judgement" is not religious at all. Neither is the the message below the painting "To Know Peace, Obey These Laws."

I don't think the ACLU has a case.





Posted by Bowa at 2007-07-04 09:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

Liar.

What I have argued is that because it requires the observer to discover it is Jesus from a secondary source

Yeah, your second eye. This picture is jesus to anyone that has a fucking brain in their skull, propogandist.

113 posts to go for OOHRAH's blender...


from an old now defunct yahoo chat line posts/article:>)

atheists arguing about god
by: liberumveto1 03/29/06 05:02 pm
Msg: 41596 of 41614
1 recommendation

The last person to be executed by Christians for being an atheist was Thomas Aikenhead, in Edinburgh in 1697. That's not all thet long ago. Despite constant persicution it is the fastest growing world view in well educated and prosperouse societies. In fact the rize of a rational, materialistic science based world view is the reason for the success of Western Civilisation. Democracy, capitalizm, scientific methode are not religiouse ideas - they will distroy the faith based world because they are so much more real.

Lest we forget the real issue: whether the state employee who hung the picture knew it was Jesus. What do you think the clerk or judge who hung the picture will say as to their intent in a deposition?!!!

"I hung a picture of a random 16th century man with a halo! And I put this slogan under it because those scribbles look like laws. I didn't know it was jesus!"

FUCKING RETARDED

Bowa is our Bill O'reilly "moderate" propogandist, Mclazerlou. Don't feel any elation at catching him lying or being stupid...it's a daily occurance on drudge.

Here is a picture of Christ that was funded by your tax dollars.

en.wikipedia.org


I wonder if the ACLU would object if the above image was put up in a government building.


Cheers

"What I have argued is that because it requires the observer to discover it is Jesus from a secondary source helps to nullify the overall religiosity of the painting."

Not to the knowledgeable person. Anyone with a rudimentary familiarity with art history or iconography would immediately identify this person as Jesus. The figure is, in fact, Jesus. The law assumes the viewer will have knowledge, not, as your suggestion hopes, ignorance. Do you understand this distinction or not?

The ACLU would, if they had the chance. Likely the people who put it up would be hanging by the nearest tree.

Funny that you would compare the NEA which fund religious and non religious art, to the court system that ONLY ever puts up CHRISTIAN religious symbols.

Good logic.

"I wonder if the ACLU would object if the above image was put up in a government building."

Yes, they would.

Grendel,

Interesting that you would bring this up as something that shouldn't be objected to because of its art and freedom of expression.

Funny, but I don't think the intent of this "piss christ" reflects the same intent that the court house wants as the intent of its christly art.

I am also sure the actual people who want the picture on the court house wall would not want anything to do with the piss christ.

Danforth- dont forget that ignorance of the law does not exempt one from it, no matter how much bowa wants to lie.

And for the record- The ACLU defended the number one radio guy who spent a lot of his time trashing their organization to millions of listeners.

Rush Limbaugh took their help too. And they won.

"What I have argued is that because it requires the observer to discover it is Jesus from a secondary source helps to nullify the overall religiosity of the painting.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?"

Only the ignorant observer. To anyone else, it's clearly and immediately Jesus. In artspeak, the artist left no doubt when the haloed figure proffered a bible.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

In C-

He's proven his ignorance on Civics 101 already. He's trying to add an "F" in Art History 101 to his collection.

Have you notice his arguments morph from "it's non-religious" to "you can't tell it's Jesus" to "I can, but others probably wouldn't be able to"?

I come here for the comedy.

Bowa is here to help, danforth. Laugh away.

If laughter is as good a medicine as they say (ditto with red wine), I'll live to be a hundred.

If it is wrong to use public money or place to promote a religion, is it not wrong to use public money or place to demote a religion?



Isn't the real problem here that we have somehow equated the freedom of religion with a belief that we have some kind of freedom not to be offended or a freedom from not being reminded that we are outside of a particular group?


"Harrison Bergeron" here we come.

The year was 2081, and everyone was finally equal. . .

notice = noticed

"is it not wrong to use public money or place to demote a religion? "

Better to ask the larger, principled questions: If it was wrong to begin with, despite the lapse of time to discover, should we right it or not? And should we right that wrong even if it costs us money?

Public money isn't the issue.

The National Endowment of the Arts promotes and demotes religion with public money.

We're talking about the mixing of govt/law here.

"Interesting that you would bring this up as something that shouldn't be objected to because of its art and freedom of expression.

Funny, but I don't think the intent of this "piss christ" reflects the same intent that the court house wants as the intent of its christly art.

I am also sure the actual people who want the picture on the court house wall would not want anything to do with the piss christ."
--MONEYWAR


Figures that you only object to Christian art but have no problem with the government endorsing pissing on Christian religious symbols. Why does it not surprise me? Because you're a spineless fucktard without a single objective bone in your body, with only the intent on satisfying your own insecurities by removing any opinion that challenges your own from the public square.

CAPTAINOFACE said it well at 2:44PM. If you don't want one you can't have the other. If you don't want flattering pictures of Christ you can't have ones of him floating in piss funded by out tax dollars either.

I don't object to any religious art funded by the NEA, as long as they are fair about it.

But I dont want to see it in a courtroom.

If it is wrong to use public money or place to promote a religion, is it not wrong to use public money or place to demote a religion?
Isn't the real problem here that we have somehow equated the freedom of religion with a belief that we have some kind of freedom not to be offended or a freedom from not being reminded that we are outside of a particular group?
"Harrison Bergeron" here we come.
The year was 2081, and everyone was finally equal. . .
Posted by Grendel at 2007-07-06 12:34 AM

I missed where the anti-Christ paintings were in question adorning any court of law.. unless you conclude that no icons of any sort is tatamount to demoting religion? Grendel, keeping the spirit of Southern justice alight.

This depiction of "Christ expressing law" is a matter of taste and context. Unfortunately, there isn't much room in legal direction to permit aesthetics when it comes to separation of church and state.

"The National Endowment of the Arts promotes and demotes religion with public money."

The National Endowment for the Arts is a misnomer. It does not have, and has never had, an endowment from the nation. And all the pissing and moaning about what is "given" (read:invested) is trivial: it amounts to about two postage stamps per person.

Didn't have time to read everyones posts, but this should have been a picture of the FSM. No one would challenge it then! :-P

NEA: some reading

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com

The law assumes the viewer will have knowledge, not, as your suggestion hopes, ignorance. Do you understand this distinction or not?

And I am saying that the law will not assume that knowledge at all and will find that the lack of an overt identification that the painting is Jesus helps to prove that the intent of the artwork was not to "prosyletize" Christianity -- and the court, if it chooses, will be able to use points made in the Texas ten commandments cases to nullify the overall religiosity of the painting.

But I'm tired of going around in circles on this -- obvioulsy most people here disagree wtih me--and as usual since I am dealing with Liberals and democrats the disagreement comes in the form of namecalling, accusations that I am a "liar" and other unprovoked nasty, and denigrating comments which are just tiresome...though they do prove that I have a hit a nerve -- and many people fear that more people then they care to admit (including those on the SCOTUS) see this issue my way. Calling us stupid, liars, or worse when we obviously are not, just reflects the kind of dismissive elitist attitude that arguably cost the democrats the last two presidential elections.

We will know soon enough who is right on this issue. The ACLU has demanded the Courthouse remove the painting by Monday.

It appears that the Courthouse has many legal forces ready to go to bat for them and use this case as another opportunity to lessen the hostility of Governemnt towards religion that began with the Texas case decision rendered by a more liberal court.

The goverment should not fund the Arts, but that is a seperate issue all together.

Is there a cultural argument to be made here? Seems to me one of the biggest problems people have with this "endorsement" of religion is that it would make people not of said faith feel like "Second class citizens".

Seems the logical followup to that is that you feel that way because your not part of the regions established religious culture. I would probably feel slighty estranged by a picture of Joseph Smith hung in a Utah Court.

Then again I'd realize I'm in a court, in Utah, and Joseph Smith is a huge part of that regions local culture. And then I'd realize i'm still in an American Court, Being judged by an American Judge with an American Lawyer and I'd have all the legal recourse I wanted/needed despite whose picture hung on the wall.

Then I'd prolly go buy a newspaper and wait for my court time, never giving it a second thought....

Bowa-

"What I have argued is that because it requires the observer to discover it is Jesus from a secondary source helps to nullify the overall religiosity of the painting"

And that argument has already been shown to be stupid. You're running in circles at this point. First of all, "This Court looks for the meaning to an observer of indeterminate religious affiliation who knows all the facts and circumstances surrounding a challenged display."
Capitol Square Review and Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753.

Second of all, even if the court did explore the issue from the standpoint of an observer who required more effort to discover that the painting is Jesus, that would not "nullify the religiosity of the painting." The painting's religiosity would remain regardless of what you happen to see at first glance. Just because you don't know something is religious doesn't make it any less religious. If you had never seen a church before, is a church a less religious place when you walk in because you don't know what it is? No, the church is what it is, just like this painting is what it is.

Regardless of whether you agree with that, the court doesn't look at this issue from the standpoint of a dumbshit anyways, so you can quit using that line of argument.

"And I am saying that the law will not assume that knowledge at all"

I'll file that alongside your statements you know better than the CIA regarding Plame's undercover status, this painting is non-religious, and the Democrats have the votes to defund the war.

""This Court looks for the meaning to an observer of indeterminate religious affiliation who knows all the facts and circumstances surrounding a challenged display." Capitol Square Review and Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753"
Posted by JOE

Now...tell us again how you know more than the judge in this court decision, how you're sure the law assumes whatever level of ignorance suits your argument.

"The goverment should not fund the Arts"
Posted by captainOface

They don't. They support the arts, if a couple of postage stamps can be considered "support". The government is much more in the business of funding oil companies, pharmceutical companies, and war.

Danforth - not going to get an argument out of me. The only purpose of government is to protect our rights and not to "fund" anything.

,i>Now...tell us again how you know more than the judge in this court decision, how you're sure the law assumes whatever level of ignorance suits your argument.

Danforth, I suggest you read the passage you posted before making your dismissive pronouncements -- BTW that quote from Clarence Thomas comes from (Van Orden V Perry Not Capitol Square Review and Advisory Bd. v. Pinette)

Joe "cherry picked" the quote and it does not refelct the true nature or meaning of Thomas's concurrence.

The full quote, when you read it reveals that the Court may look "for the meaning to an observer of indeterminate religious affiliation who knows all the facts and circumstances surrounding a challenged display" but that in no way means that it is is reasonable or fair -- Thomas argues that this view needs to be needs to be reassessed. In fact Thomas just a few paragraphs later says in the same concurrence "Much, if not all, of this would be avoided if the Court would return to the views of the Framers and adopt coercion as the touchstone for our Establishment Clause inquiry. Every acknowledgment of religion would not give rise to an Establishment Clause claim."

Obviously, a passive picture in a courthouse is not coercive and therefore would not be found in violation of the Establishment Clause by Thomas.

Oh God Lokisfur still trying to get his Tits out of the Proverbial Wringer ?? Bwhahahahahahahahha I just love it. bwhahahahahahahhahahaha hehehehehe

Larry

That doesn't change the fact that that is the prevailing view. Show me a court case where the judges took the position of a dumbass who didn't know what the display at issue was. Only then will your argument make sense.

You also did not address my point that even if they did take that position that the religiosity of the painting would still remain.

I'll file that alongside your statements you know better than the CIA regarding Plame's undercover status, this painting is non-religious, and the Democrats have the votes to defund the war.

LOL

You mean my statements that Fitzgerald knew Plames status in relation to the law better then the CIA in finding that she was not protected by the statute, that this painting's overall religiosity is nullified, among other things, by the secular context in which it is displayed; and the Democrats did not try to cut off funding for the war because they couldn't get "cloture' ---just the opposite, they didn't try because the GOP would give them cloture and the responsibilty (and consequences) for the withdrawl and surrender would be squarely on the shoulders of the Democrats.

I mean, if the democrats were scared they wouldn't get cloture they wouldn;'t have tried to get it on the immigration issue nowing full well their chances were nil.

With the democrats attempting top cut off funding for the war outright and circumvent the President entirely, many many memebrs of the GOP would vote to give them cloture -- and hand the democrats all the responsibility and the consequences for withdrawl, defeat and surrender.

Show me a court case where the judges took the position of a dumbass who didn't know what the display at issue was. Only then will your argument make sense.


Exactly. Ignorance of the law is a weak defense.

You are an intellectualy Dishonest Person LOKISFUR. WHy do You continue to lie about the facts of the matter??

Larry

That doesn't change the fact that that is the prevailing view.

Not for long. Van Orden V Perry was the first shot across the bow of the liberal viewpoint onthe establishment clause. We now have an even more conservative court then the one that made that decision.

Thomas's showed one way, originalists will return the establishment clause to the original intent of the founders -- coercion -- that is the main point of Thomas concurrence -- not your "cherry picked' comment in a parapgraph where all he does is outline the varrious problems in dealing with the establishment clause as he ruminates on the need to change the precedents.

LOL

So maybe it will be this Slidel Courthouse case that moves the establishment clause back towards the original intent, or maybe it willbe another case -- but either way -- the SCOTUS is moving in the right direction and will be for some time.

You know it's funny. The right wants the rulings to be what Conservatives believe in but they forget that the US COnstitution is a Very Liberal Document so how would a Conservative understand it is beyond Me. Funny Dat Be.

Larry

And so you know, public money can be spent on sectarian uses, like busing kids to catholic school or subsidizing sports programs.

And the NEA money didn't go to the artisit to make the piss jesus. It went to a competition and display that merely included that guy's art.

Moreover, the intent of the state and state actor matters. Sponsoring art forums open to anyone with anything to say is a far cry from hanaging a portrait of jesus in the court house. And it is quite possible that if some clerk or judge hung piss jesus on the courthouse wall with a sign under it saying "religion and law don't mix" I would bet you the ACLU would go after them in a novel case of promoting the establishment of atheism over religiosity (which to my knowledge has yet to occur - usually he other way around. But insofar as the free exercise of atheism is guranteed, a state promoting it would likely run afoul of the establishment clause too, I would think).

Where in the hell is RevDarko on this one? Religion....the ACLU...a public display...this is his area to shine.

Ohhhhhhh Reverend, where art thou?

"That doesn't change the fact that that is the prevailing view."

"Not for long"


I see. So your position isn't really grounded in any precedent or prevailing legal theory, but rather in a psychic prediction you have on a court overturning centuries of Establishment Clause jurisprudence. Once again, if you think my quote was "cherry picked," then show me a case where the Supreme Court analyzed religious content from the standpoint of an observer who didn't know what he was looking at. It shouldn't be difficult considering that that's what you think the court will do here.

I see. So your position isn't really grounded in any precedent or prevailing legal theory, but rather in a psychic prediction you have on a court overturning centuries of Establishment Clause jurisprudence

Not at all. In fact, if there is a truly prevailing view with regards to the quote you cited,it's that such an assesment is so subjective as to be rendered almost moot. Recent cases have looked to other sources and tests, "coercion" for example as better determinents of the Law.

As Thomas said in that Concurrence you "Cherry Picked":

"In looking to the view of this unusually informed observer, this Court inquires whether the sign or display "sends the ancillary message to ... nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community.' " Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290, 309--310 (2000) (quoting Lynch, supra, at 688 (O'Connor, J., concurring)).

This analysis is not fully satisfying to either nonadherents or adherents. For the nonadherent, who may well be more sensitive than the hypothetical "reasonable observer," or who may not know all the facts, this test fails to capture completely the honest and deeply felt offense he takes from the government conduct. For the adherent, this analysis takes no account of the message sent by removal of the sign or display, which may well appear to him to be an act hostile to his religious faith. The Court's foray into religious meaning either gives insufficient weight to the views of nonadherents and adherents alike, or it provides no principled way to choose between those views. In sum, this Court's effort to assess religious meaning is fraught with futility."

In short, Thomas was telling all the lower court judges that there are better, less subjective ways, ways to assess the Establishment Clause. And he, like his fellow judges in the majority, were giving them the green light to do just that.

If you were correct, and the apparent view is that they don't take into account what a random person would observe, then why do you keep emphasizing that the average person wouldn't know this was Jesus? Your harping on Thomas' de-emphasis of the average observer works both ways, you know.

Joe- You keep this up and you'll get arrested for manslaughter...lol!

"For the adherent, this analysis takes no account of the message sent by removal of the sign or display, which may well appear to him to be an act hostile to his religious faith."

So it shouldn't be taken down because it's religious?

Oh, it's just Clarence Thomas. Never mind.

Clarence thomas just said the scotus are not "social engineers" in the brown vs board of education redux.

Keep that in mind next time he keeps a cancer patient from smoking a joint.

Sweet spleen of Judas, this thread is huge!

Okay, I didn't read even a quarter of it, but I'm going to weigh in.

The public display of a religious icon in a building dedicated to the fair and impartial judgment of citizens is wrong. When there is a quotation from a religious text associated with said image, it is even moreso.

The implication is that fair judgement will only be handed down to those who obey the laws written within the religious text. That is a clear violation of the first amendment.

As with the Roy Moore monstrocity from a few years back: if it's in a private area of the courthouse, there's no problem. In the public areas, it promotes a religion.

And dealing with the following quote from WAAAAY up in the thread:

Damn, while the ACLU is at it, they should get rid of the huge statue of Zeus in the Minneapolis Courthouse!

You're right, they should. Bring it up to your local chapter.

Obviously, a passive picture in a courthouse is not coercive and therefore would not be found in violation of the Establishment Clause by Thomas.

why is this so obvious?

If I was to go into that southern courtroom and declare that I cannot in good conscious swear an oath on the bible as it is full of crap and that I would rather swear on a biology textbook do you really believe I would be getting a fair trail after that?

Second the montion, REVDARKO! Here here!

How about swearing on a copy of the constitution? Seemed to work in the old days.

If in court, I would refuse to 'swear on the bible' as I consider it a piece of foul rubbish not worthy of the paper it is printed on.

Find me in contempt? Then you have your answer about religion and the law...

And dealing with the following quote from WAAAAY up in the thread:

"Damn, while the ACLU is at it, they should get rid of the huge statue of Zeus in the Minneapolis Courthouse!"

You're right, they should. Bring it up to your local chapter.

Posted by revdarko at 2007-07-06 02:32 PM | Reply

I've heard of SEVERAL Christians who've called local ACLU chapters with such issues (including reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and similar stuff) who've been told that they won't take such cases. I've heard at least half a dozen people mention this, from half a dozen different locations, one of whom mentioned that the local ACLU lady who answered the phone saying, "we only take cases that involve Christianity."

Ever heard the like, RevDarko?

As a Christian, I can agree with many anti-religious types here that many Christians are too thin-skinned on this topic, but I thought I'd interject it into this discussion nonetheless.

You've heard, you've heard, you've heard. Ever call them yourself, or just rely on what you've heard?

I've heard of SEVERAL Christians who've called local ACLU chapters with such issues (including reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and similar stuff) who've been told that they won't take such cases. I've heard at least half a dozen people mention this, from half a dozen different locations, one of whom mentioned that the local ACLU lady who answered the phone saying, "we only take cases that involve Christianity."

Ever heard the like, RevDarko?


Honestly, no I haven't. I will look into it. I would be surprised (and more than a little ticked) if that's the case.

Joe,

No, I haven't called myself. Calling the ACLU to complain is not my style. If the teacher was reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead to my child in the local public school, the first thing I'd do....is ask myself why I was sending my kid to a public school if I didn't want them learning crap like that.

I don't agree that a picture, or ten commandments monument (and the like) would be a government-sanction of a religion, and I think the Supreme Court has agreed; but I like a good discussion.

Shoot, look at where churches meet in this country; there are churches that meet at elementary schools, junior high schools, public high schools, bowling alleys, bars, movie theatres, even public parks. I don't see any meeting (or needing to) at 10 commandments displays/murals of Jesus and the like.

I don't find many people meditating on how to have trust and faith in God when they look at our coinage. I think Pat Robertson would be quick to mention it if there were such happenings. Ha!

I think the reason many Christians are so whiny is their particular worldview (within Christianity). Most Christians think the world is getting worse and worse, more and more sinful, and that these are signs that Jesus is coming back soon. It's a very pessimistic worldview, and it seems to anticipate persecution, rejection of Christ and Christians. And I don't buy it at all.

Wanna see THE most disturbing example of this:
www.raptureready.com

It's a great example of modern, American, self-centered Christianity; I think the early church would either laugh hysterically (like I do) or vomit upon reading such.

I don't find many people meditating on how to have trust and faith in God when they look at our coinage. I think Pat Robertson would be quick to mention it if there were such happenings. Ha!

Posted by kirk at 2007-07-06 04:27 PM


Wrong! Many people are aware of the contradiction and history of the phrase.

The original motto of the United States was secular. "E Pluribus Unum" is Latin for "One from many" or "One from many parts." It refers to the welding of a single federal state from a group of individual political units -- originally colonies and now states.

The replacement motto: "In God We Trust:"

The war of 1812 was an unusual conflict. Both sides claimed victory. The winner depends upon which history books or which country's schools you attended. Also, the war lasted well beyond 1812.

During 1814, Francis Scott Key (a.k.a. Frank) had an eventful September. "Traveling under a white flag, Key met with both an enemy general and admiral, recovered a war prisoner, became a war prisoner, watched a historical bombardment, lost a night's sleep, and wrote" what eventually became the American national anthem: The Star Spangled Banner.

The final stanza reads:

"And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'
And the Star Spangled Banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave."

In 1864, the words were shortened to "In God We Trust" and applied to a newly designed two-cent coin....

In 1956, the nation was suffering through the height of the cold war, and the McCarthy communist witch hunt. Partly in reaction to these factors, the 84th Congress passed a joint resolution to replace the existing motto with "In God we Trust." The president signed the resolution into law on 1956-JUL-30. The change was partly motivated by a desire to differentiate between communism, which promotes Atheism, and Western capitalistic democracies, which were at least nominally Christian. The phrase "Atheistic Communists" has been repeated so many times that the public has linked Atheism with communism; the two are often considered synonymous. Many consider Atheism as unpatriotic and un-American as is communism. The new motto was first used on paper money in 1957, when it was added to the one-dollar silver certificate. By 1966, "In God we Trust" was added to all paper money, from $1 to $100 denominations.


www.religioustolerance.org

I prefer the original

The implication is that fair judgement will only be handed down to those who obey the laws written within the religious text. That is a clear violation of the first amendment.

Rev, after spending so much time reading up on the Establishment Clause and the historical legal issues surrounding it, including this brilliant article on the "coercion test" which I urge all to read:
lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu I believe a decision in this case is not a "slam dunk' for either side. And this is coming from someone who initially thought the ACLU had no case at all believing that the law had moved much further right then it has.

But it still has moved right. Significantly so.

A decade ago, it would be a foregone conclusion that any religious art hanging in a courthouse would be in violation of the establishment clause. Not so anymore

Now the Court is redefining the Establishment Clause to replace the Lemon test with a set of standards that seeks to bring the clause mor in line with the original intent of the founding fathers which was to prevent a specific state sponsored religion like the "Church of England".

I've mentioned some of these standards, tests, and measures throughout this thread -- the bottom line is that all of them take a far less hostile view of religion in the public domain then we have seen in many years.

"In God We Trust" has no place on our coins. I consider it a violation of church and state. If it said---In Allah we Trust---or in Zeus we trust---or in Apollo we trust---fine---because everyone knows those gods are bullshit---they just need to added one more "God" to the list.

Here's the link to a brilliant article on the "Coercion test" for the Establishment Clause. I urge everyone here to read it if they have the time (it's 48 pages!):

lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu


Sorry the other link didn't work.

hey buff
allah is the same as God That Christians worship

I knew my post would draw out folks like BuffaloBob and Donnerboy...

the point being, "In God we Trust" is not exactly inspiring worship of an established religion.

Or feel free to provide a picture, link, news article, whatever, of someone praying inspired by our modern coinage.

Salamandagator,

You are clearly, demonstratably wrong. Ask a Muslim and a Christian
OR
study a Quran and a Bible
OR
do try again

" someone praying inspired by our modern coinage"

no but to the almighty dollar maybe

OR
provide some evidence

I know some of you like floating this crap every other week on similar posts


hey buff
allah is the same as God That Christians worship

Posted by salamandagator



You are absolutely correct---and Allah is bullshit too.


The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.
George Washington


As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.
George Washington



Seems the United States was founded by Liberals and Liberal thought. Freedom of Speech---a liberal concept. Freedom of the Press---a liberal concept. Freedom of assembly---a liberal concept. Right to bear arms---a liberal concept. Every Freedom we enjoy today is based on liberal concepts, not conservative concepts. Conservatives are by definition, anti-American. An American stands for Freedom and Just for All, and that is not a conservative concept.

true that, Salamanda

"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."
-George Washington

Kirk

The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.
George Washington

Washington didn't force his faith on others--he used it to guide himself. Bush uses his faith to force others to his views. Can you see the difference?