Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Sunday, June 24, 2007

Sen. Barack Obama told a church convention yesterday that some right-wing evangelical leaders have exploited and politicized religious beliefs in an effort to sow division.

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Obama is talking about Falwell, Robertson, Dobson and all the lesser known bible thumpers who use their pulpit on behalf of the GOP so ignoring Jesus's teachings about God, Caesar and Mammon.

The division has occurred because at some point the GOP hierarchy decided to target Christians as a political power base. The Christian churches that are less about Jesus and more about hell and damnation had the leaders who went along with this. If they were right-wingers it was only the type of right-winger whose God is money and they were happy to use party politics to rake in even more. They and their extreme views about their God, politics, abortion and homosexuality have become predominant in American Christianity.

Christianity in America has to take back its church from these people just as the GOP has to take itself back from the people who have used Christianity merely as a tool to take and keep power. The American people will encourage the GOP to do so by wiping them out at the ballot box. The Christians will have to use the Jesus they believe in to do the same.

The division has occurred because at some point the GOP hierarchy decided to target Christians as a political power base

Actually, the "division" occurred because at some point (the late sixties) the postmodern, amoral strain of shit known as left-wing politics hijacked the Democrat party.

It has since been a mish-mash of "power-theory", class & race baiting, nihilism, realtivism, and militant secularism that has served as the basis for proposed public policy promulgated by the Democrat party.

Humanity---and the politics which govern it---is not an abstraction or calculation that can be "tweaked" and adjusted for purposes of engineering desired outcomes.

Contrary to the leftist worldview, neither the State nor the men who run the State are the source of our rights.

Religious people have always been targeted as a "political power base", probably because the vast majority of people in this country are religious.

When you shrilly and self-righteously begin to defend the proposition that murdering unborn children is OK, or that people who have a problem with homosexuality are simply "bigots"---don't be surprised when the religious turn their back on you. And furthermore, don't attribute their lack of enthusiasm for your political agenda to some imaginary "hijacking" by extremists.

They and their extreme views about their God, politics, abortion and homosexuality have become predominant in American Christianity.

Utter bullshit.

The hard-Left's extreme views about God, politics, abortion and homosexuality have become predominant in the Democrat party---and its the Democrat party with a problem...

...not the pieties of a 2,000 year old religion.

Well, Obama just lost my vote. I am not voting for someone for whom a bunch of religious malarkey is very important. He was supposed to be running for president, not delivering lectures on comparative degrees of stupidity.

Nearly all colleges have an available major called political science. A politician should be able to make a science out of studying how to garner the support of religiously oriented voters. The question of who is right or wrong religion-wise should not be a consideration. Obama has just alienated a large bloc of voters, not too smart, but apparently religion is more important for him than votes.

The hard-Left's extreme views about God, politics, abortion and homosexuality have become predominant in the Democrat party---and its the Democrat party with a problem...

Only if you are on the hard right.

A politician should be able to make a science out of studying how to garner the support of religiously oriented voters.

And all the multiple regressions in the world will point to one not being elected when he's perceived to be in the same camp as those who refer to the majority of the voting bloc as "stupid" adherents to religious "malarkey".

Otherwise, I'll let the irony of your post speak for itself.

Only if you are on the hard right.

Being "on the hard right" has nothing to do with the hard-Left's extreme views about God, politics, abortion and homosexuality having become predominant in the Democrat party.

I suspect you're trying to say something.

Gather your thoughts and try again.

It's all relative Pinche. Hard left sounds evil. By using that label, it tells me you are on the hard right, though you might not see yourself that way. That's all.

I suspect you're trying to say something. Gather your thoughts and try again.
Posted by Pinche_Mao


ROTFLMAO

Humanity---and the politics which govern it---is not an abstraction or calculation that can be "tweaked" and adjusted for purposes of engineering desired outcomes.

Posted by Pinche_Mao

i disagree Pinche- much like child psychologists being hired by ad agencies to "tune" their ads, armies of political analysts, statisticians, and others are employed to "tweak" the calculations employed to garner votes. Dem or Rep, they're all playing that game.

P.S.

people who have a problem with homosexuality are simply "bigots"
arent they? :)

hard-Left's extreme views about God, politics, abortion and homosexuality having become predominant in the Democrat party.

Posted by Pinche_Mao

Unfortunately it has been the Repubs that have introduced God and religion into the mix and the new evangelical base started bringing politics onto the pulpit. Notwithstanding what the democrat platform is on these social issues, who exactly is the hippocrite here? The dems who do not bring religion into the mix and advocate for these issues or the repubs who, while claiming the religious high ground, use it to promote war, torture, prosecution of illegal aliens not for crimes but just for being here working, etc. etc. Funny, I was taught that Christians are supposed to love their neighbor, abhor violence and help each other. Think deeply...Is this how the Repub evangelical base is acting?

Considering that there is no such thing as a "Democrat party" in this country...

Considering that a cursory glance of your post history indicates your obsessive/compulsive insecurity regarding the (self-conscious, by the way) application of the adjective "democrat", I'll be sure to keep grinding the organ so that I may watch the earnest little chimps of the Democrat party (like you) dance around for my amusement.

Unfortunately it has been the Repubs that have introduced God and religion into the mix and the new evangelical base started bringing politics onto the pulpit

That's not true.

Gawd and religion have always been an integral part of the American experience, and have therefore always been a large component of appeal to voters.

It is only in the last several decades that the Democrat party has begun to wildly deviate from the basic religious and moral assumptions that most Americans are comfortable with.

This in turn has created a backlash led by people like Falwell and Dobson, who are just as unapologetic and vocal about their beliefs as the "progressives" are about theirs.


Considering that there is no such thing as a "Democrat party" in this country we'll just have to let the irony of that post (along with the all-too-obvious stupidity of its author) speak for itself.


Really? There's no Democrat Party?

Who won the elections last November then?


Is this the Drudge way of saying "I'm interested in you"? Like "a cursory glance" of someone's MySpace?


Since you like to break out the Dipshit Dictionary, here's some help for you.

cursory /k"rs'ri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kur-suh-ree] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
adjective
going rapidly over something, without noticing details; hasty; superficial: a cursory glance at a newspaper article

After my own cursory glance at your history, I can see what he means.

Who won the elections last November then?

The American people.


The Democratic Party. If you're not keeping up with current events, why are you posting here?


You mean the Democrat Party.

mediamatters.org

Didn't you get the memo? It's been changed to a rise out of asshats like you.

banal [buh-nal, -nahl, beyn-l]

adjective

1.) devoid of freshness or originality; hackneyed; trite

2.) Drearily commonplace and often predictable; trite:

Examples:

Considering that there is no such thing as a "Democrat party" in this country

I vote Democratic. Too bad you're too stupid to know the difference.

I vote Democratic. Too bad you're too stupid to know the difference.


The American people.


That's debatable. Considering the Democrats haven't really done anything FOR the American people, but eh...it's only been since January...gotta give them time to settle in and get used to wielding power.

I don't think the American people have won an election since JFK, to be totally honest.

"The division has occurred because at some point the GOP hierarchy decided to target Christians as a political power base."

Karl Rove looked at the left-overs of Pat Robertson's unsuccessful but telling Presidential campaign and found enough votes to get GW elected in Texas.

He used this same coalition of fearful culture war "victims" to advance GW into a Presidency that even GW's parents would never have believed could happen and one which this country shall long regret.

There aren't enough elites to elect themselves into office, so their only venue to enough votes to make legal the power they already hold is to fearmonger culture war issues to enough honest citizens to get their henchmen elected.


Blaming it all on the libral boogeymen who want to take away their Bibles and their guns and make their children marry flag-burning, terrorist-loving, America hating queers is escapist fantasy.


I find it somewhat sweet that you're defending someone. And that you're apparently interested in me as well. How special.


Defending? No.

Pointing out what should be obvious to someone of your 'intelligence'? Spot on.

Is this the Drudge way of saying "I'm interested in you"? Like "a cursory glance" of someone's MySpace?

Nope.

It's simply the Drudge way of confirming the asininity of a fat, bald little IT chump who's too stupid to realize that his incandescent ignorance can't be camouflaged by changing his screen name.

Does that help?

Oh, and thanks for that link: "the word "Democrat" is a noun

I think everybody here pretty much gets that, genius.

I hope the Democrat party has a lot more to offer the world than whining little drones like yourself---too stupid to know when their chain is being jerked.

"Actually, the "division" occurred because at some point (the late sixties) the postmodern, amoral strain of shit known as left-wing politics hijacked the Democrat party.

It has since been a mish-mash of "power-theory", class & race baiting, nihilism, realtivism, and militant secularism that has served as the basis for proposed public policy promulgated by the Democrat party."

You got it...and that was when I stopped voting for democrats. The "do your OWN thing," and "if it feels good, do it" crowd encouraged everyone to "turn on, tune in and drop out." I just dropped out. Now, those fools ARE the Democrat Party.

"I just dropped out."

Apparently taking a nasty blow to the head upon landing.

Now, those fools ARE the Democrat Party.

Nuh-uh.

'Cause there's no such thing as the Democrat party...

Yeah...

So nyyaaaah...

"the word "Democrat" is a noun, arguing that its use as an adjective defies the rules of English grammar".

No "rules of English grammar" are violated by that use. Happens all the time and is considered kosher.

How many posts here have you devoted to me? ROTFLMAO!!!!

Roughly as many as you've devoted to me.

Haa-Haa-Haaa-Hee-Hee-Hee--
ROTFLMAO!!!

haaaaoooooo...

*sigh*

What was your original point again?

That people with extraordinarily small dicks tend to compensate for it by over-using HTML to garnish their posts.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

Obama can shove it.

I can believe what I want and vote for who I want. He just doesn't like it because I won't be voting for him.

Are any of yall posters in the Republic Party?
Morons.

"Apparently taking a nasty blow to the head upon landing."

NOTHING like the blow to the heads of you and your little friends who were "turning on and tuning in." All that REALLY massaged YOUR heads, right? Tell me, are you still turning on..or do you still have flashbacks? I guess all the stuff y'all smoked, snorted and shot up has made you think you should be running the country...LOL.

"I vote Democratic."

I do too, I just don't vote for democrats any more.

All the stuff Dubya drank or snorted made you support him being in charge?

Bob-
re: its use as an adjective defies the rules of English grammar

I find the use of "Democrat Party" as helpful tool in avoiding that reality-averse cultish core of the Republican Party. It also helps one to identify the dittoheads, idiots, and childish twits early in the conversation.

Pinche - I was arguing in favor of finesse . . . but your rigid stance would not allow you to see that. In other words, whatever religious malarkey a politician believes in, he or she should not allow that to become enough of an issue that voters would be alienated. Like when Kennedy won despite being Catholic.

Are any of yall posters in the Republic Party?

Those of us -- y'all y'all, or usuns, or wesuns -- who live in Brazil could be, yes. Why do you ask?

Are y'all a Labourite, as in a member of the Labour Party?

"I guess all the stuff y'all smoked, snorted and shot up has made you think you should be running the country...LOL."

Good description of the current Prez, eh?

Apparently so:

Yes.

Apparently so.

www.drudge.com

No I was always fixen to be a democrat in the DEMOCRATIC party Doc. As for yall or ya'll I am a simple small town boy. We avoid ' and " and sometimes *.

The divorce of spiritual faith from religion began with the cancer of Falwell in the '80s, spread with the hate spewing of Falwell in the '90s, and finally has reached terminal status with GWB and his cynical supporters in the '00s. America: RIP.

So who's Obama like in the 5th? Islam or Christianity?

LOL



"this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile."
-Chimpy

When I saw the headline, I was shocked, encouraged: is it possible that Barrack Hussein Obama finally has something to say about the Islamists? That he is challenging Muslims to reform themselves?

Ah, 'twasn't to be. Just another pol complaining that his leftist politics aren't embraced by more religious whites. How typical. As usual, confronted with the greatest challenge of our age, the Dems go after . . . James Dobson.

And they wonder why they're not taken seriously.

With rare exception I would seriously doubt you'll find an evangelical Christian also an avid Dem.

Serious question: Does any DR poster personally know an evangelical Christian who is also an unabashed Dem? And if they are a Dem, what factors have brought them to that political alliance?

Posted by OohRah
* * * *

I know dozens of them. But they're all black. And they're Democrats because they're . . . well, black.

I know dozens of them. But they're all black. And they're Democrats because they're . . . well, black.

Posted by rightisright



No Seriously Evangelical Christian.
-OohRah


Sorry Just kidding, well mostly..........


ZAP-
You misquoted me. I didn't say that.

Posted by OohRah


Indeed hence the caveat..


Know any white evangelicals who'd be hardcore Dems?

Posted by OohRah


Damn Near!


LOL

"And they're Democrats because they're . . . well, black."

Ken Mehlman disagrees, admittedly.

www.usatoday.com

Yes, Obama, many things divide us. Some, like skin color (and many others) should NOT divide us. Some things SHOULD divide us, like justification of racism, justification of murder (abortion and otherwise).

"Religion" that justifies the murder (legal or not) of innocent children in the womb is worthless (in the eyes of God, in the eyes of men with a lick of sense in them).

In Moses' time, Satan (with willing human accomplices) killed the babies
In Jesus' time, Satan (with willing human accomplices) killed the babies
In our time, Satan (with willing human accomplices) killed and is killing the babies.

BTW, God's chosen servants to set the people free always makes it through and save the day.

"The division has occurred because at some point the GOP hierarchy decided to target Christians as a political power base."

Karl Rove looked at the left-overs of Pat Robertson's unsuccessful but telling Presidential campaign and found enough votes to get GW elected in Texas.

He used this same coalition of fearful culture war "victims" to advance GW into a Presidency that even GW's parents would never have believed could happen and one which this country shall long regret.

There aren't enough elites to elect themselves into office, so their only venue to enough votes to make legal the power they already hold is to fearmonger culture war issues to enough honest citizens to get their henchmen elected.
Blaming it all on the libral boogeymen who want to take away their Bibles and their guns and make their children marry flag-burning, terrorist-loving, America hating queers is escapist fantasy.

Posted by Corky at 2007-06-24 01:33 PM | Reply |

Hearing YOU talk about "libral boogeymen" is hee-larious, when you, a liberal, spend your entire post being afraid of "boogeymen", only on the right.

Know any white evangelicals who'd be hardcore Dems?

Posted by OohRah at 2007-06-24 08:16 PM | Reply

I know several.

"Know any white evangelicals who'd be hardcore Dems?"
Posted by OohRah

"I know several."
Posted by kirk

Let me guess...when they read the bible, they actually read "love thy neighbor as thyself" and "whatsoever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto me"...Oh, and they know most of the beatitudes, they are inspired by the parable of the talents (and therefore believe it's our duty to cure disease), and they know who "the Samaritan" would be if Jesus were alive today and telling the tale of the Good Samaritan.

Which begs the question, to both Kirk & OohRah:

If Jesus were living today, and told the tale of The Good Samaritan, who would the "Samaritan" be?

GW?

Oorah you need to define Evangelical there is no accepted definition of this word in America. It means many things to many people.

During the Reformation, Martin Luther referred to his movement as the evangelische kirche (evangelical church). Later, "Evangelical" became a near-synonym for "Protestant" in Europe. It retains this meaning in Germany today.

It does not mean that in America.

So what is YOUR definition?

Anyone care to try?

not me...



"The secret of a balanced life is to live each moment in the right spiritual frame of mind."

"So what is YOUR definition?"

Of an evangelical?

In a nutshell...someone who believes Jesus is their savior, and who believes in the Rapture, and puts those two factors above all else.

I vote Democrat. I consider myself a Christian

If you read the 'Red Print' i.e. Jesus' actual words , which are supposed to contain the elements of 'Christianity', they are totally at odds with Republican positions.

"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword"
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for there's is the kingdom of God'

Help the poor, give of yourself, treat your neighbor as yourself, and a million other examples.

He taught peace and love. The Republicans teach war and hate. Heck, they even called me a 'terrorist lover' for my opposition to the war in Iraq - which we all now know was a mistake and terribly managed once we did go in.

The "Democrat" or "Democratic" dichotomy was created by shitstain radio celebrities like Rush to muddle political discussions into semantic bullshit as we are experiencing here. To actually argue about such nonsense while your future is being stolen is insanity!

Salvation comes only through faith in Jesus and not good works

Hmmm. I seem to remember a little saying by Jesus:

"Faith without works is dead."

That was a saying by Jesus' supposed brother James (the Just), who was said to have knees like a camel from crawling on them in prayer all of the time.

He seemed more in favor of Christianity as a sect of Judaism than a new theology.

No less than Martin Luther said of James' writing that it was a, "strawy little epistle without a word of Gospel in it".

The next day they went back to Jerusalem and again Jesus went to the temple, but this time he took action. Men were selling the animals for sacrifices right there in the area of the temple! He knew this was not right and he did something about it. He made a whip out of cords, or small ropes and he drove the money changers out along with the sheep, oxen, and doves. He turned the tables over and poured out the money on the floor of the temple.
He said, "Take these things away! My Father's house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a 'den of thieves.'"

Hey Jesus, meet irony.

Christians for monetary profit!!!

We are about out of ideas on this planet......

"I vote Democrat. I consider myself a Christian

If you read the 'Red Print' i.e. Jesus' actual words , which are supposed to contain the elements of 'Christianity', they are totally at odds with Republican positions.

"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword"
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for there's is the kingdom of God'

Help the poor, give of yourself, treat your neighbor as yourself, and a million other examples.

He taught peace and love. The Republicans teach war and hate. Heck, they even called me a 'terrorist lover' for my opposition to the war in Iraq - which we all now know was a mistake and terribly managed once we did go in."
--ALLAMERICAN


Oh I see, so you're saying that the Democrat party is the party of God. Does that mean I'm going to hell?

You talk about helping the poor and giving of yourself. How is that at odds with Republican positions? Is it at odds with individual Republicans? Yes. Can it be also at odds with individual Democrats? Or are they all saints? Because Republicans don't believe in a system that rewards laziness, they're at odds with Christian teachings (read Proverbs)? Because they feel that charity is a better means of helping the poor than government, they're at odds with Christian teachings (just two different ways to accomplish the same goal)?

LIVE OR DIE

It was Bill Clinton who reformed Welfare.

Proverbs is in the OLD Testament. Jesus said he came to bring a new message.

I'm not one who agrees with concentrating on the Old Testament more than the New in Christianity. Verses from the Old Testament have been used to do countless evil things.

LIVE OR DIE

The very wealthy give much more money to arts related fundraisiing than people related charities.

That's a recent finding......

Same here OohRah

We're all good people who mean well.

:-)

"Proverbs is in the OLD Testament. Jesus said he came to bring a new message.

I'm not one who agrees with concentrating on the Old Testament more than the New in Christianity. Verses from the Old Testament have been used to do countless evil things."
--ALLAMERICAN


Jesus also said he did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them (Mat. 5:17). Jesus never told his followers to throw out their old scriptures. He came to fulfill what was written in their old scriptures. So where is the justification for throwing out the OT?

And I never said to concentrate on the OT more than the NT, that is a strawman. Yes, the OT has been misused, but so has the NT. That doesn't mean either of them justified the misuses.

"The very wealthy give much more money to arts related fundraisiing than people related charities."
--ALLAMERICAN


I think they would better spend their money on helping people, but my question to you is, why do you think the government would do any better? As far as I can tell the very wealthy control the government and the government will just help the very wealthy in return.

And then there's guys like me, who aren't wealthy just average, who want to give money to help people, as opposed to just handing it over to the government to piss away on helping the very wealthy people who put them in power to begin with.

How come you don't have a slave, or a stable of slaves, LIVE OR DIE? Huh?

The O.T. is very specific about how your slaves should be treated. How to be compensated should they be injured, how to pay another for injuring their slaves...

God Loves Slavery. In the OT.

So tell us all why you REFUSE to have a SLAVE in the modern era. Why you aren't pushing to repeal anti-slavery elements of the constitution.

It is very Christian to own PEOPLE.

If it's good enough for God, it should be good enough for you. So where's your petition, dick-wad?

Typical christian hypocrasy prevents you from exercising any kind of logic or reason AT ALL. As your answer to my example above WILL SHOW. (...waiting for a Typical Christian Deflection...)

This is why you won't find Hard Core Eveangelicals in the Democratic Party. They don't have the intelligence to join.

by those who call themselves beleivers?

Google Spider Goats [A film for all Americans]

Google Spider Goats is an interactive, informative documentary/compilation that goes from the ... all fraud that is known as the Federal Reserve to World Trade Center 7 in less than 50 minutes. A great film for waking up new audiences to how the United States of America's citizens are being subjected to massive deception. The film has been made for both new naive audiences with small attention spans, and hardcore truth deniers.




video.google.com

If your definition of an Evangelical contains the requirement that you believe in the inerrancy of the bible then you will not find too many Democrats that believe that.

If you define Evangelical as believing that Jesus did exist and was sent by God then I think you will find quite a few.

What makes most of us sick to our stomachs is the Evangelicals belief that they have the ALL the answers and they are in the Bible. They base this belief on faulty documentation and then try to create a circular logic that states in effect that this documentation is the Word of God and is without errors because ...well...because it says so!

I think that the Democrats generally rebel against this kind of illogic and stupidity...and tend to question any authority and believe they have the right to do so.

I also think (maybe it is just me) that Democrats are more strict Constitutionalists and they believe that combining or mixing church and state is big BIG NO NO!

"And ALL, I meant to include you in my response to Danni earlier this morning on the he/she intersexual. I've enjoyed our dialogue.""

Oohrah generally is one of the most gentlemanly of the righties. I mean that as a sincere compliment to someone I usually disagree with.

Is gentlemanly really a word???
Oh well.

in 17 seconds in Minneapolis ~ FoX Network did it! Obama gets smeared as a Sex Offender....oh so it seems:>)

video.google.com

Typical christian hypocrasy prevents you from exercising any kind of logic or reason AT ALL.
This is why you won't find Hard Core Eveangelicals in the Democratic Party. They don't have the intelligence to join.

Posted by DUMPLING1
* * * *

The self-retort of the day!

Oorah-

I am a Democrat and I believe in strict separation of church and state as spelled out in the Constitution and by the intent of our founding fathers.

It is offensive to me that Evangelicals have tried to hijack my Country and to distort the meaning of the Constitution.

I am offended when I see organizations such as the Discovery Institute subvert our Constitution or when I see

Today's hard right seeking total dominion.

Or packing the courts and rigging the rules.

I know that these things do not target the Democrats but democracy itself.

As Bill Moyers once said:

True, people of faith have always tried to bring their interpretation of the Bible to bear on American laws and morals ... it's the American way, encouraged and protected by the First Amendment. But what is unique today is that the radical religious right has succeeded in taking over one of America's great political parties. The country is not yet a theocracy but the Republican Party is, and they are driving American politics, using God as a a battering ram on almost every issue: crime and punishment, foreign policy, health care, taxation, energy, regulation, social services and so on...

Evangelicals usually translates to the Religious Right

True, people of faith have always tried to bring their interpretation of the Bible to bear on American laws and morals ... it's the American way, encouraged and protected by the First Amendment. But what is unique today is that the radical religious right has succeeded in taking over one of America's great political parties. The country is not yet a theocracy but the Republican Party is, and they are driving American politics, using God as a a battering ram on almost every issue: crime and punishment, foreign policy, health care, taxation, energy, regulation, social services and so on...

* * * * *

Uh huh. I doubt that today's Republican Party holds a single policy position that the Democratic Party didn't hold just a generation ago. The idea that the Republican Party is a theocracy is so preposterous, I can discount everything else that Moyers is saying. As usual. Tell me Bill--how did Pat Robertson do as a candidate? How about Pat Buchanan? Republicans held Congress for the past twelve years, and the presidency for six--is abortion still legal? Just wondering.

Republicans want Roe V Wade overturned. They also don't favor embryonic Stem cell research for religious reasons. They are conducting a war on Islam in hopes of the rapture. Christians are loons who have hijacked the Republican party.

I'm a Republican. I would like to see Roe overturned. I don't have a problem with embryonic stem cell research, just the government funding thereof. Islam is conducting a war on everything that isn't Muslim. And if they've "hijacked" the Republican Party, did Pat Robertson and Pat Buchanan win their respective nominations for the Republican Party nomination? Or was it someone else?

"Where's your petition, dick-wad....?"

Sums up nicely why the Left will have problems establishing some sort of stable lock on power.

The seeming contradictions of faith are shoved in the faces of the faithful constantly. I suppose this is justified as some sort of pay-back, as is most nasty behavior.

Somewhat galling, though, given the contradictions of the non-faithful are often accepted by the non-faithful without a burp.

The non-religous can't substitute what largely seems to be an elaborated Lenny Bruce routine for reasoned feedback and critique.

Why did Chris Hitchens decline to get a Ph.D. to review his historical assertions in regards to Christianity?

Laziness? Ignorance? Probably just because his anti-religous "work" wouldn't be as entertaining to his chosen audience if he cared about facts.

People want something deeper than "Origin of Species" to base life and behavior on. It's just something that needs to be dealt with. If you can't, there's not much future in your politics.


Faith hasn't been hijacked from Obama or the left. When you allow unnecessary abortions, ordain gay ministers, and put up with all sorts of wicked perversions you have left the faith whether you know it or not.

OohRah

Unfortunately, the face of evangelical Christianity in America has been a bigoted and judgemental one via the Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's of the world.

I mean, blaming the tsunami and Katrina on God's wrath towards Muslims and homosexuals isn't even close to any Christianity I want to be a part of.

The general message of the far right, yes 'radical', evangelicals is one of intolerance not inclusiveness, of judgement and not acceptance.

OORAH ... "We are, and have been for a long time, locked in an ideological struggle in the US. A (social) struggle between conservative and liberal mindsets. I'm going to vote for people who'll govern as conservatives and you vote for whomever you wish on whatever basis you deem critical.
To assume this is a one-sided struggle with evangelicals doing the pushing is only acknowledging half the story."

This is true, except the Liberals don't want the Conservatives to conform to an ideology. However, the Conservatives do want this country to conform its laws and institutions to the moral code they choose to adhere to. This is in complete contradiction to the constitution, in that, by the government conforming to religious moral codes it is in-fact endorsing a religion.

As to being a Constitutionalist (however you define that) I would disagree. Dems largely view it as a "living, breathing document" subject to the whims of today's culture. Hence, the SCOTUS battles.

It is the Religious Right that is trying ot change history and distort the constitution...

The problem is that:

Christians are mandated to gradually occupy all secular institutions until Christ returns.

So Policy is being made based on The Rapture and Armageddon.

this is illogical and dangerous!

"Our aim," according to Pat Robertson at a banquet in 1984, "is to gain dominion over society." The path to dominion was made clear when Robertson told the Denver Post in 1992 that his goal was to "take working control of the Republican Party."

I think most Democrats believe that the founding fathers intended for a strict separation of Church and State. This not wishy washy but strict interpretation.

Evangelicals who tend to be Religious Extremist and tend to believe it should be a Christian State. This is a distortion of History!

www.theocracywatch.org


FACT:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

FACT:
Thomas Jefferson, who of course, WROTE the constitution has explicitly said there should be "wall of separation between church and state,"

FACT: "In God We Trust" is not our National Motto!

FACT: Despite popular belief and misinformation from the Religious Right, the phrase does not spring from the founding period. It was never proposed or suggested by any of the framers. In fact, early U.S. coinage like the Constitution itself was secular and contained no mention of God, Jesus Christ or Christianity.

FACT:In 1776, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson designed a great seal of the United States and put forth "E Pluribus Unum" (a Latin phrase translated as "from many, one") as the national motto. Congress rejected the seal but adopted the motto. It began appearing on U.S. coins as early as 1795.


BTW- you ALL missed the most Obvious Democratic Evangelical--President Jimmy Carter

Capt,


However, the Conservatives do want this country to conform its laws and institutions to the moral code they choose to adhere to. This is in complete contradiction to the constitution, in that, by the government conforming to religious moral codes it is in-fact endorsing a religion.


No, it isn't.

People derive their moral codes from a variety of sources - parents, philosophy, religion, mentors, etc.

In a Democratic Republic, people vote for politicians who promise to legislate in a manner most in-line with their own personal moral codes. If enough politicians are elected (via majority appeal) to create a majority within Congress to create certain legislation that is favorable to their constituents - it becomes law, pending an Executive veto. No part of this process is in violation of the Constitution.


This is Civics101 stuff.

I know your side has tortured those famous 10 words in the Constitution to death, but come on already. What you just typed is ridiculous.

Correction-- Jefferson who HELPED write the Constitution...

I love it when big-government liberals foist Thomas Jefferson onto a pedestal, when it conveniently suits their purposes.

Jefferson was fiercely against Centralized government. He was in favor of limiting the scope of the federal government as much as possible. He was very much a states' rights kinda guy; as opposed to Adams, who was a Federalist (although even Adams didn't favor anything near the magnitude of today's federal government).

I find tremendous humor in the irony of all of the liberal genuflecting toward Jefferson.

I am so glad you find it humorous!

Now would you care to address the FACTS?

The fact is the original intent of the Constitution was a wall of separation of Church and State.

This basic concept is being undermined by the Religious Right...

Do you deny this or do you just find that funny too?

The fact is the original intent of the Constitution was a wall of separation of Church and State.

This basic concept is being undermined by the Religious Right...

Do you deny this or do you just find that funny too?


Posted by donnerboy at 2007-06-25 11:15 PM |


Those are only your facts... which really aren't facts at all.....

Tell me... Why did or (do) we swear to tell the truth on a bible before giving testimony?

Why does Congress still pray to the God of Christ?

I think you need to do a bit more research....Perhaps someplace a bit less bias that you obviously now use. May I suggest the SmithSonian.

Jeff's just trying to be nice to you... He doesn't find humor in the irony, he's just awestruck some of you could be so willingly ignorant.... That's all.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, ...




Say, Where'd I find those words, Donner?

It is so sad how we can quote the same document yet reach such different conclusions as to its meaning.

You are using the same quote I am so how is you came to a different conclusion to its meaning?

You have taken it OUT of historical context.

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams never intended for America to become a Christian Nation and stated as much.

Adams-although not anti-clerical, he advocated the separation of church and state. He also believed that regular church service was beneficial to man's moral sense. Everett concludes that "Adams strove for a religion based on a common sense sort of reasonableness" and maintained that religion must change and evolve toward perfection.

Now leap forward to today-
The principle of religious liberty has become the legal tool used to make the U.S. Constitution conform to Biblical Law. To the framers of the Constitution, religious liberty was a very important principle. It meant the freedom from the tyranny of a dominant religion. They were reacting to the dominance of the Anglican Church in England at that time. Today, Religious Liberty has come to mean the freedom of one religion to impose its beliefs on others. Teacher-led school prayer in the classroom is one way to achieve religious dominance.

I reached my conclusion based on the historical context by which the constution was written.

How in the hell did you come to your conclusion? I will tell you...

Pat Robertson and the American Center for Law and Justice told you to.

www.pfaw.org

Those are only your facts... which really aren't facts at all....

Posted by Incubus_Con at 2007-06-25 11:37
PM

you call that a retort?

And in court or swearing in Congress I don't have to swear on a bible ... I can use a Koran or other religious text if I choose.

And in Congress I don't have to pray to Christ I can pray to Buddha or the Great flying Spaghetti Monster if I choose.

I stand behind my stated facts... just because you don't like them doesn't change them.

Donner,


The key part of the phrase is this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, ...


Having a Christmas tree on public property does not constitute making law.

If some liberal gets their panties in a bunch and wants to challenge a cross placed on public land, let them. It doesn't affect me whether it's there or not.

I DO call bullshit regarding the religious symbol thing being the act of making law, though.


What's ironic is the U of M Dearborn, a public University just spent $27,000 to install special basins so their Muslim students (about 11% of the overall student population) can properly wash their feet.

No, but it does show preference to one religion, which they're not supposed to do either.

en.wikipedia.org

On June 8, 1789, Madison proposed a bill of rights to the House of Representatives. Regarding religion he proposed: "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed."

memory.loc.gov

11 Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 91 (1985) (thenJustice Rehnquist dissenting). More recently, dissenters, including nowChief Justice Rehnquist, have appeared reconciled to a "constitutional tradition" in which governmental endorsement of religion is out of bounds, even if it is not correct as a matter of history. See Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct. 2649, 2678, 268384 (1992) (Justice Scalia, joined by the Chief Justice and Justices White and Thomas, dissenting).

in which the Court, without dissent on this point, declared that the Establishment Clause forbids not only practices that "aid one religion" or "prefer one religion over another," but as well those that "aid all religions." Recently, in reliance on published scholarly research and original sources, Court dissenters have recurred to the argument that what the religion clauses, principally the Establishment Clause, prevent is "preferential" governmental promotion of some religions, allowing general governmental promotion of all religion in general.11

www.law.cornell.edu

Cognito,

I am well aware of how the notion of original intent was shit-canned coupled with a brutal torture of the English language that led to this decision.

JEFFJ ... "This is Civics101 stuff."

Yeah ... Back at ya ...

JEFFJ ... "I know your side has tortured those famous 10 words in the Constitution to death, but come on already. What you just typed is ridiculous."

No, it isn't ridiculous, it is the way the system is designed to work, in YOUR system Muslims could vote in a Muslim Congress and pass a law that states, "We are now a Muslim Nation and will be ruled by the word of Allah as interpreted by Omar Abdullah or his successor. And, (incidentally), there is no need for future elections ...

I don't really see this as the Founding Father's utopian view of the future ... However, you can run with it if you like; it's America!


Furthermore, I stand behind my previous statement: "by the government conforming to religious moral codes it is in-fact endorsing a religion", because it's true... And, "Civics 101 stuff")

Cap,

You and I are not on the same page.


You said:


in YOUR system Muslims could vote in a Muslim Congress and pass a law that states, "We are now a Muslim Nation and will be ruled by the word of Allah as interpreted by Omar Abdullah or his successor. And, (incidentally), there is no need for future elections ...

1. We HAVE a Muslim in Congress now.

2. What you are suggesting IS against the Constitution.


When I say religion can be used to legislate, here is what I mean...

The majority in this country is in favor of outlawing prostitution. For some, the moral reasons for favoring this may be rooted in religion. The Constitution does not prohibit the outlawing, or legalizing prostitution.


Does THAT help?

JEFFJ ... "When I say religion can be used to legislate, here is what I mean...
The majority in this country is in favor of outlawing prostitution. For some, the moral reasons for favoring this may be rooted in religion. The Constitution does not prohibit the outlawing, or legalizing prostitution"

Here is a link for you:
www.latimes.com

The Government is now sponsoring churches (through Bush's "faith-based initiative") to do charitable work, the language used by the Supreme Court states that: The government can't support one church over the others, but can support all churches to sponsor charitable works ...

Our Government is sponsoring religion. Furthermore, endorsing one brand of religion over the other, in that; the government will decide which brands of "Faith" it will give funds to do this "charitable work". Therefore, the government will have to decide which brands of faith are valid, and which are not ... This IS wholly against the Constitution ...

And, the arguments used frequently to impassion voters against candidates and or certain legislation are Religious in nature. When it comes to legislation on, say:

1. Health and medical rights, Religion shouldn't be a factor. (This legislation should be based on science)
2. Human Rights, Religion shouldn't be a factor. (This legislation should be based on equality for ALL)
3. Morality, Religion shouldn't be a factor. (The Government shouldn't legislate morality, but especially with a religious bias)

In all of these areas of legislation Americans have religious influence as a guideline for the law. This is in direct conflict with the religious rights of Atheists, Agnostics, Spiritualists, Pagans, Satanists, etc. Therefore, are unconstitutional.

Legislation such as the RLPA (Religious Liberty Protection Act), RFRA (Religious Freedom Restoration Act) and even the watered down version of these; the RLUIPA (Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act) use verbiage that entitles "SPECIAL RIGHTS" to persons of religious orientation.

All of these infringements to American Civil Liberties, as-well-as the entitlements and "SPECIAL RIGHTS" to persons of religious orientation have been brought to you by groups such as:

The Christian coalition, Family Research Council and the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Conventionis are large and powerful lobbying groups in the United States. They are tax exempt (the CCA recently lost its). This gives them a financial advantage in regards to lobbying Congress and thereby influencing legislation to religious ends. Many leaders of these groups see all issues as religious and calls on Christians to "take over or get rid of institutions of secular government". And, many of the leaders and members of these groups are Christian Reconstructionists

Christian Reconstructionists espouse a radical theology that calls for trashing the U.S. Constitution and replacing it with the harsh legal code of the Old Testament. They advocate the death penalty for adulterers, blasphemers, incorrigible teen-agers, gay people, 'witches' and those who worship 'false gods'.

In summation: I am much less worried about one "Muslim Congressman" than I am the tidal wave of influence and impact of Christianity in the US government.

YOUKNEWWHO... "Faith hasn't been hijacked from Obama or the left. When you allow unnecessary abortions, ordain gay ministers, and put up with all sorts of wicked perversions you have left the faith whether you know it or not."

CORRECTION: One has left YOUR BRAND of faith... Whether they CARE or not...

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