"Essentially, we have shaken the belief the world had in America's justice system by keeping a place like Guantanamo open and creating things like the military commission. We don't need it and it is causing us far more damage than any good we get for it," he added.

"I would get rid of Guantanamo and the military commission system and use established procedures in federal law," Powell said, saying some leaders around the world were using Guantanamo to hide their own misdeeds.

From his mouth to "The Shrub's" ears.

I smell someone having a moment of moral Clarity. Too bad He didn't have that moment of Moral Clarity in 2003 when He sold the UN a Bill of goods He knew was BULLSHIT. I guess even the worst sinner in the world can find moral clarity upon their deathbeds.

Larry

His words fall on notoriously deaf ears.

Well, he is a career soldier and rose to be Scretary of State in a Republican administration, so obviously he's a liberal Defeatocrat tool who hates America.

Actually Colin was the last guy with any credibility until he did that UN presentation.

he's as guilty as BushCo and Congress for this war...f*ck them all...they will rot in hell!!!!

I wonder what is it about the Internet that allows people to suddenly loose all sense of intelligence, and scream the first thing pops into their mind.

Powell's place in history, much like President Bush remains a toss up, and will be severely clouded by how Iraq develops.

I know that doesn't go along with the self-professed seers among us, who believe that they can foretell Iraq's future as easy as Rosie can ramble about 911 conspiracy theories.

The fact remains, the tides of history can never be truly predicted and I will reserve my judgment for the end results.

P.S. I have a suspicion someone might mumble about hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed, forgetting for a second they were killed by fellow Iraqis.

I'm quite sure Saddam would have delivered just as many, and with less hopeful possibilities.

Wherein those poor deaths in Iraq now, might have the possibility of seeing a future where tyranny no longer holds sway.

All Saddam could ever offer was a quick send off into a merciless oblivion.

Oblivion-
re: "The fact remains, the tides of history can never be truly predicted and I will reserve my judgment for the end results.

P.S. I have a suspicion someone might mumble about hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed, forgetting for a second they were killed by fellow Iraqis."

Actually, I was curious about the former. How long will you reserve your judgement? (Will the final word require the services of a medium in a candlelit room?)

Oblivion-
"I know that doesn't go along with the self-professed seers among us, who believe that they can foretell Iraq's future as easy as Rosie can ramble about 911 conspiracy theories."

Oblivion Puppet, 06/11/07

VICE PRES. CHENEY: I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators.

MR. RUSSERT: If your analysis is not correct and we're not treated as liberators but as conquerors and the Iraqis begin to resist particularly in Baghdad, do you think the American people are prepared for a long, costly and bloody battle with significant American casualties?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, I don't think it's unlikely to unfold that way, Tim, because I really do believe we will be greeted as liberators. I've talked with a lot of Iraqis in the last several months myself, had them to the White House. The president and I have met with various groups and individuals, people who've devoted their lives from the outside to try and change things inside of Iraq.

The read we get on the people of Iraq is there's no question but what they want to get rid of Saddam Hussein and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that.

Dick Cheney, 03/16/03

Oblivion-
The question, to me, is not whether Iraq is a "lost cause", but whether the Bush administration is. I simply wouldn't trust them to tie my shoes.

Would you?

Really?

Oblivion-

While it's true that absolute and complete judgements do require the perspective of time, that is different than the required judgement of our present circumstances. We can't make decisions contrary to present facts in the hope that future revelations will justify them.

History will judge us, to be sure; but it will certainly be kinder to those who measured their present and acted according to what they knew or thought they knew than to those who ignored their circumstances in favor of what they hoped might be true somewhere around an unseen corner.

Too bad He didn't have that moment of Moral Clarity in 2003 when He sold the UN a Bill of goods He knew was BULLSHIT.

Posted by LarryMohr

Larry,

How did Colin know that? Did he have a different intelligence department than the one that was headed by George Tenet who was sitting right there with him. Thus Tenet was solidly supporting Powell's arguments.

Intelligence was baked, as has been reported on many fronts, however, I think Colin was provided that same baked intelligence.

slbow43

I guess I'd like to think Powell only saw baked intelligence 'cause I always thought him to be a decent guy.

But how far up do you go before you find the baker?

How did Colin know that? Did he have a different intelligence department than the one that was headed by George Tenet who was sitting right there with him. Thus Tenet was solidly supporting Powell's arguments.

Intelligence was baked, as has been reported on many fronts, however, I think Colin was provided that same baked intelligence.

He was, but according to his former chief of staff, he had his doubts about the intelligence and that's why Powell had Tenet sit behind him:

WILKERSON: Well, let's face it. It was. It was not a hoax that the Secretary in any way was complicit in. In fact, he did his best. I watched him work to try and hone the presentation down to what was a slam dunk. Firm. Iron clad.

I recall vividly the Secretary of State walking into my office. And he said, looking out the window, just musing. He said, "I wonder what we'll do if we put half a million troops on the ground in Iraq and comb the country from one end to the other and don't find a single weapon of mass destruction."

Wilkerson is a former colonel in the U.S. Army, a decorated Vietnam vet, and a life-long Republican. Wilkerson first met Powell in 1989, shortly after Powell left the Reagan White House. Powell was looking for an assistant; Wilkerson signed on. He's followed Powell ever since -- through the first Gulf War, Powell's brief fling as a potential candidate for president, and eventually, to the State Department.

WILKERSON: I remember when we were doing the dress rehearsal in New York City. We were at the top floor of the U.S. mission in New York City. And I had laid out the room to look like it was the Security Council, complete with little placards. We came to the end, and the Secretary turned to Mr. Tenet and he said, "George, you back up everything, right? One last chance." And Mr. Tenet said, "Absolutely, Mr. Secretary." And the Secretary said, "Well, that's good George, because you're going to be with me tomorrow. You're going to be in camera with me. And if you'll look at the film, there's Mr. Tenet sitting beside Powell."

I always liked Powell. It killed me to see him in front of the U.N. like that. But, it was widely reported that he was part of the discenting wing of the White House and he was looked down upon by the other lockstepers. I will look for a link.

Why does Colin Powell hate America??
Why has Colin Powell joined the "blame America first" crowd?

If by "Close it" he means open more in some other countries then I'm all for it. Gitmo has gotten too much press, and I'm all for secret prisons so we can treat the mutts properly.

Chair is all for secret prisons. The Founding Fathers would be proud.

I know libs like men with wigs and ponytails and actually care what people from over 200 years ago think, but I don't.

Close Gitmo and move it to Texas. If the "interviewees" don't confess, we'll put 'em on death row. They'll rot there with the other "innocents". Then they can install the Electric Grandstand tm. We can use their corpses to fill potholes.

Nothin' beats ol' southern knowhow!!!!

YYYYYEEEEEEHHHHAAAAWWW!!!!

care what people from over 200 years ago think, but I don't.

It's pretty obvious that you agree with Bush and Cheney that the Constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper.

It's pretty obvious that you agree with Bush and Cheney that the Constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper.

Posted by silver_ironist at 2007-06-11 11:39 AM | Reply


Either that or I agree with the way things have been being taken car of since before you and I were alive.

I know, I know buttercup, it was so much easier when we did it on the QT and you could wallow in your own ignorance.

The list of unintended consequences from Bushit gets longer every day.

But how far up do you go before you find the baker?

Posted by TedBaxter

******************

I agree, but who is going to do that? Certainly not Powell who is no longer in the administration and you know this WH will NOT clean it's own backyard.

Gal,

Thanks for the posting, but that doesn't say to me that Powell had knowledge that quality of the information in the briefing was suspect. I interpret that as he didn't want it to look like he had just heard this stuff yesterday so he worked hard at making sure the information flowed and was backed by multiple sources. In fact he asked Tenet if he "backed" the information. I don't see anywhere that it suggests he was complicit in concocting information. He may have questioned it, as any normal human being would, particularly a Four Star General. However, I think he acted on the best intelligence he had which seemed pretty solid.

I still go back to the reports of the intelligence community being told to find the information that will make the case for the war. Now if you can convince me Powell had something to do with that then I'm on board. Otherwise he seems to be victim of the information designed to make the case for war that was generated by the intelligence community.

Powell also said war wasn't his first choice for a course of action.

The 'Authorization For War" was premised as a last resort if Saddam still possessed WMD's.
And, as we all know, Bush kicked out the UN Weapons Inspectors while they were begging for 2 more months.

So, let's face it. They urged the intelliganece community to search for reasons to attack, then took us to war before they knew beyond a reasonable doubt that Saddam possessed WMD's.

Either that or I agree with the way things have been being taken car of since before you and I were alive.

I know, I know buttercup, it was so much easier when we did it on the QT and you could wallow in your own ignorance.

Posted by 101Chairborne at 2007-06-11 11:45 AM | Reply |

So then your happy with the way things have gone since those dudes with wigs 200 years ago set it up? Seems to me you might want to be concerned with people who've setup a system you've been so happy with.....

Well if Colin Poweel isn't with us he must be against us!

"I know libs like men with wigs and ponytails and actually care what people from over 200 years ago think, but I don't."
-Charred101-

Wow, I will hold onto that one. That could be used as a come back anytime this dumbass chimes in again.

"I'm a patriot, F our constitution, I'm a patriot, F our founding fathers, I'm a patriot, F our country, democrats a traitors"

You guys are hilarious

So then your happy with the way things have gone since those dudes with wigs 200 years ago set it up? Seems to me you might want to be concerned with people who've setup a system you've been so happy with.....

Posted by KnightHawk at 2007-06-11 03:26 PM | Reply


If "they" set up secret prisons and torture then that's peachy.
I imagine though that those types of things became more and more necessary when we were looking at things on a global scale as opposed to a Northeastern scale.


B.F.,
Those guys you put on a pedastal (you know, the slave owners that you believe had it all figured out) didn't comprehend anything west of the Missisippi let alone a jihadist or nuclear weapons.

"Squawck squawk...The founding fathers were the best. Squawk squawk...Patriotism...Squawk squawk, they were slave owners".
Congrats uber patriot.

I just think it's funny that you call others traitors when its you who hate the freedoms we are supposed to stand for.

I don't want to be safer if we have to give up the freedoms we are guaranteed in the constitution.

The Terrorists win.

I just think it's funny that you call others traitors when its you who hate the freedoms we are supposed to stand for.

I don't want to be safer if we have to give up the freedoms we are guaranteed in the constitution.

The Terrorists win.

Posted by BenFranklinn at 2007-06-11 04:21 PM | Reply


You know what I find funny BF? People that could read "traitor" in my posts in this thread. What's even funnier is some dumb-ass (read: You) supplied the traitor arguement to me at 346pm and then bought his own drivel and is now running with it.

Yes, of course the old "The terrorists win" routine. Did the terrorists and foriegn operatives win when it was Dem admins that maintained secret prisons and tortured, or do they only win when it's a republican in office BF?

You guys are real treats. You'd rather pretend that we didn't do less than honorable things even though common sense said otherwise. Yeah yeah, we were always the guys in the white hats on the white horse...That is until that evil Bush rode into town...Yeah, that's how it is.

Burry your head in the sand Copernicus. Be sure to lap up the manbatter that the next admin is going to feed you about torture and secret prisons being a thing of the past (as they just take it underground).

On any scale Torture is unacceptable. It is ineffective as an information gathering tool. It is destructive to the image of our country. It further degrades our prestige in the world, as-well-as our power to effect change on a "global scale". It further endangers the lives of our soldiers in the field.

Anyone that endorses torture:

Hates America and what it stands, (stood), for.
Wants harm to come to our soldiers in the field and thereby is against the military.
Endorses the actions of terrorists.
Wants the terrorists to win.
Hates God and all he stands for.

Here's a snippet that I found regarding AMERICAN TORTURE techniques in Iraq:

"Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out."

Who would Jesus Sodomize?

101 -

Do you "believe" and support the Constitution or not?

Do you think the Constitution supports secret prisons?


Do You believe that the Founding Fathers intended for All men to be treated equally?

Do you really believe they did not struggle with the concept of human slavery?

Do you really believe that they did not know what they were up against (read YOU) when they created the Constitution of the United States of America?

Do you REALLY believe we need MORE secret prisons?

Do you really believe that when we condone this type of behavior that there are not repercussions? Blowback I believe they are calling it now.

How many secret prisons would Jesus recommend 101?

You are sick.

Seek help at once. Hide the guns and knives and use child proof scissors for the protection of those around you.

If you don't think that the so called Terrorist are not happy about the struggles we are having then you are a fool too.

Of course they "win" when we subvert our own Constitution and erode our own freedoms for a smidgen of security.

Truths are truths whether they are 200 years old or one week old.

We hold these truths to be self-evident beats the hell out of anything you have ever said.

oh and a bit on more on topic-

Colin Powell is a great man and he is right (this time) GITMO should close. Thanks for finally speaking up Colin!

Bring the humans (did you forget they are humans?) to America and try them under American law or return them to the country they were captured in and let those folks deal with them there (as should have been in the first place!) or let them go.

Quit playing Dee Dee Dee and do what is right...for a change.

I know libs like men with wigs and ponytails and actually care what people from over 200 years ago think, but I don't.

Posted by 101Chairborne

And the constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper.

I looked up 101 in Wiki and all it said was, "classy guy."

Where did you go Ben Franklin? Why do you critters always run when I start shining a light around?