Never said I could spell: Intolerant.

I am one person who will not vote for a Mormon," Michaud said as Romney approached his table.

"Oh, is that right?" Romney said. "Can I shake your hand anyway?"

"No," Michaud said, refusing to meet eyes with the Republican presidential candidate.

Afterwards, Michaud identified himself to reporters as "a liberal" who planned to vote for Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-New York, should she win the Democratic presidential nomination, according to the Associated Press.

I bet this guy wouldn't shake hands with someone with Hussein as a middle name either.

Oh well, he probably doesn't wash his hands after he pees either so its probably for the better.

Oh well, he probably doesn't wash his hands after he pees either so its probably for the better.

By the looks of him I would bet the guy pees in his pants more than he pees in a toilet.

I don't know what this guy's problem is. He's very similar to a Mormon...except he's missing one letter.

I wonder if Clinton has said anything about this. I would hope she would come out and say that she wouldn't want anyone who thinks like this guy voting for her.

Who goes to a campaign stop and then delierately refuses to shake the candidates hand and makes religious slurs and then goes on to declare himself a Hill Dem?

A wingnut?
A plant?
A planted wingnut?

Basing one's vote purely on anothers brand of religion is justified only in the sense that nobody has to explain their vote.

The fact that this guy explained his thinking process shows intolerance.

Thomas Jefferson once sed...

"I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others."

Tom was a bright guy.

Be Well.

I'd shake hands with a Morman but I sure wouldn't put one in office who plans on having Jeb "Neocon" Bush as his VP running mate on the Republican 2008 Presidential ticket -- which is exactly what Mitt Romney plans on doing.

I wonder if Clinton has said anything about this. I would hope she would come out and say that she wouldn't want anyone who thinks like this guy voting for her.

Posted by taxman at 2007-06-01 04:50 PM |

Well, yesterday dear Hillary DID say (in California's Silcone Valley to a bunch of CEO's) that she wants huge increases in H1-B visas so the CEOs can bring thousands of cheap labor foreigners into the U.S. to work in our high tech jobs here -- and undercut and take away high tech jobs opportunities from Americans.

What a gal! Sells all our U.S. computer tech graduates right down the river. Then Hillary tries to cover up for that obvious globalist trait and groveling to corporate American by saying she wants U.S. kids to do better in education and the math and sciences.

As she babbles away for better education (even though if you do get an education Hillary will make sure it's of no use because she'll make sure some foreigner can come into the U.S. on an H1-B visa and take your future job away) Hillary stands there with a huge sign behind here with the words "NEW JOBS FOR TOMMORROW" repeated over and over again on the sign. Hillary should learn to proofread -- or maybe we can outsource her.

Gee califChris...You make her sound just like a republican! I love The Tatters' take on it; A planted wingnut.

You don't find many 90 year old White Male Liberals who suffer from religious intolerance. Now a disgruntled 90 year old White Male conservative Protestant who suffers froom religious intolerance is par-for-the-course.

That said, perhaps as an act of religious contrition, Romey should put on the Magical Mormon Spectacles and find those damn gold-plates. They've been missing like - totally - forever!

Then he could use the same specs to locate all those missing WMDS in Iraq.

Shameless religious pandering. Sheeeet. the Rapture can't come fast enough!

Shameless religious pandering. Sheeeet. the Rapture can't come fast enough!


Posted by DUMPLING1 at 2007-06-02 01:50 AM

Dec 21, 2012

CALIFCHRIS is probably right.

Romney is working hard to get in that top tier.

Those who make it that far get rewarded with the Mr. PNAC himself . . . Jeb Bush, the fox watching the henhouse, so to speak.

Jeb has publically stated many times that he has no intention of running for president. But he hasn't said a word about accepting a VP position or any other position in another GOP administration.

I think at this point in the game America has to be very, very careful about who we put in the White House. The PNACers haven't given up.

Anybody embracing the GOP should be treated with a great deal of skepticism. In fact, it would be better to put them all out to pasture for, say, about 50 years or until the last one has kicked the bucket.

Ha! At first glance I thought the headline read "Anti-Moron Voter Won't Shake Romney's Hand".

Second thought was, this guy must not be republican.

I'd say three quarters of this country are Anti-Moron right about now.

Well I would shake old Mitt's hand I might even vote for a Mormon. Just not him.

I was just this morning reading an article on how a candidates faith will play an even larger role in this presidential election -- at least among those polled for the story.

WTF is wrong with this country? After six years of having a so-called man of "faith" in the oval office (did I mean Feith?), someone who supposedly speaks to God on a first-name regular basis, you'd think that even born-agains would eschew the faith thing for some more measurable criteria, like intelligence.

But I'm expecting too much, I suppose. What, like 60 percent of Americans believe God blinked the world into existance...

"You don't find many 90 year old White Male Liberals who suffer from religious intolerance."Posted by DUMPLING1

Oh, I don't know about that. There are MILLIONS of leftists who won't tolerate ANY part of Christianity, although I don't know their ages. Hell, they even want to remove the crosses from city seals, from graves on "government property," and any reference to God from our money. I'm not very religious, but none of those things have ever done ME any harm or caused me to lose sleep. I think it's a symptom of SERIOUS intolerance on the part of the leftists...(I refuse to call them liberals. Liberals don't exhibit all that intolerance. Do you think JFK would EVER have joined these people?)

I'm not sure being a man of "faith" has anything to do with why Bush is so bad. My hit on him is that he has always been a man too appreciative og things his faith instructs him to be suspicious of-money, power, and personal pride.

I've met many liberals that eschewed religion, However, not before I began posting here did I realize so many people hated religion.

If you don't think an atheist could screw things up like Bush and exactly for the same reasons, then your understanding of the human condition is fatally flawed.

I have to agree with you JEST... The intolerance displayed by some is hypocritical at best. They rail against the people of religion who want to regulate our lives or control what we see and hear, yet at the same time want to do the same in other areas.

In the end most on either extreme are the same. The use the same methods they just have different views of how they want to force others to live.

Me, I just want to be left alone. You leave me alone and I will leave you alone. If there is no God then what does it matter how you live your life? If there is a God, then He will deal with the "infidels". I don't see that as my job or the job of anyone else.

One should distinquish between the community of Mormon People and the cash bloated tax sheltered "Non-Profit" Corporation, that is taking every taxpyer to the cleaners, Mormon or otherwise. Most members are sincere, patriotic, deluded "Christians" with a Protestant work ethic. But their Corporation is about money, money money. They are milking the US system of religious freedom for all its worth, pretending to be a religion while engaging in business tax free. Mooney, Robertson and many others do the same thing. If they wanna play in the business world they should be subject to the same rules, including taxation.

How hypocritical that the story is about intolerance of a mormon, but Romney goes on to say that atheists are not qualified to run the country.

Zed

"I'm not sure being a man of "faith" has anything to do with why Bush is so bad. My hit on him is that he has always been a man too appreciative og things his faith instructs him to be suspicious of-money, power, and personal pride."

WTF are you talking about? What planet have you been living on the last six years? Bush is ALL ABOUT money, power, and personal pride. He is the decider--he doesn't have to follow the laws congress passes---this is HIS WAR. It's all about W----GOD TALKS TO W!!!---just ask him. What an incredible statement for any human being to make that hasn't suffered from oxygen deprivation.


"I've met many liberals that eschewed religion, However, not before I began posting here did I realize so many people hated religion."

Naw---we don't hate the religion, it's the people who insist on saying they are better people than people who don't believe their superstitious nonsense. If people like you would just STFU about it and pray to your god by yourself---you wouldn't hear shit from us atheists because we never think about alien space gods until bible thumpers bring it up---then they whine because they are being "hated". Well STFU and about that bullshit god of yours and you won't be insulted.



"If you don't think an atheist could screw things up like Bush and exactly for the same reasons, then your understanding of the human condition is fatally flawed."

Um--Bush was affected by a belief that he gets his instructions from god--an atheist would not have that flaw. Your understanding of the human condition is seriously flawed.

Bob, an atheist might indeed have that flaw. He just wouldn't call it "God".

"STFU...."

Once again, thanks for stepping up and illustrating my points.

"Bullshit God...."

And, for that matter, thanks again.

If the Bible (or Koran or Book of Mormon) were our source of ethics, then we would be raping and beating women right and left while stoning, blinding, or dismembering everyone else for petty crimes. That is what the alleged "Word of God" teaches, unlike Jesus who would distance himself from the organized Religions and Governments running the world today.

Smith was a Con-Man that used his alleged position as a Prophet to screw every willing or frightened woman in his tribe. The kind of person every Mormon should use as an example of principaled leadership.

Jesus certainly critiqued religous establishment, but distanced himself from the Bible never.

Would I vote for a qualified atheist? Sure. Would that atheist likely already be socialized into Christian ethics? Almost assuredly.

"...Hell, they (liberals) even want to remove the crosses from city seals, from graves on "government property," and any reference to God from our money. I'm not very religious, but none of those things have ever done ME any harm or caused me to lose sleep...Posted by jestgettinalong
"

Obviously you're not Gay, Black, Feminist or otherwise Non-Christian.

Because if you were, you would have suffered at some point in your life by the actions of White Moral Christian Republicans (males and females).

As a Gay Man, I do suffer nearly every day from the hate spewed by your kind from every corner of this country, and others, and there is NO equal time to rebuke your crap.

You are seriously deluded if you think there is no repercussions for placing crosses on hills and the word 'god' on money.

The founding fathers would rise from the dead and strangle Bush for pandering to the religious. That is assuming ANYONE could rise from the dead!

No Jest, you don't get a warm fuzzsy christian pass. You and ALL christians are nothing but immature, hypocritical, non-thinking peons grovelling at the feet of an invisibile 'god' who is so impotent He (it?) couldn't even stop two little planes before they smashed into the twin towers at WTC.

Wake up, drop your bible and step away from religion before it is too late. All of you!

Christians: Insert Appropriate Bible Quotes For The Next Fourteen Posts Starting....Now!

"Non-thinking peons...."

You and Bob, separated at birth?

Frankly, I think there should be as few "repercussions" for putting a cross on a hill as dressing in pastels.

Dumpling:

Not all Christians are like those you have run across.

Are you kicked off of PWZ again, Stalkerville?

Man, even rejects don't want you!

Sucks.

Rejected by the rejects, that's pretty bad. And next week Tie AKA Niceville will have to get yet another new handle.

Tie: BLAH-BLAH-BLAH...You might as well cite a poem about Zeus, or thor, or Jupiter - what an idiot!

Lisa: Christians are exactly like I stated. Those that think they are forward would flip-flop in an instant if they had too - because Christians are Cowards.

That which they cannot understand they label demonic. That which they cannot rule or convert, they kill.

ZED - check it out;

YOU: The Magic Man in White Robe snaps fingers and - POOOOF - happy meals everywhere.

ME: Universe takes billions of years progressing through trial and error and eventually leading to this point in time, with evolution showing no signs of slowing...

YOU: Non-Thinking Peon.

ME: Thinking Citizen.

The universe "progresses" because of "trial and error"? Sounds anthropomorphic.

So, how many trials with how many errors before our friend the Universe gets it all right?

Dumpling:

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I've defended gays and the rights they deserve since forever. And I'm not about to "flip flop".

"Evolution shows no sign of slowing..."

You know, I've seen "2001: A Space Odyssey" about twenty times. It was only around number eighteen I realized it was a religous film.

Naw---we don't hate the religion, it's the people who insist on saying they are better people than people who don't believe their superstitious nonsense.

----

Irony.

ZED:

Oh let's see...about six billion-ten billion years worth.

Oh, my bad. You think the earth is 6000 years old...

Uh - BWAHAHAHAHA!

RE: 2001-space odyssey?

News Flash. It's a movie. The whole concept of it revolves around a higher intelligence.

It doesn't make it true.

Outside of flaming a couple of posters here, and I'm not saying it was right to do, I know my Christian responsibilities. I have failed many times. I know that. But it doesn't mean that I don't try to improve.

You don't have to agree with my spiritual beliefs, Dumpling, but I'd just appreciate you showing a little respect towards some of us Christians who don't judge you, don't think we are better than you, and don't try to cram our beliefs down your throat.

However, I'm glad you and I are having this discussion. It is causing me to refocus and want to be a better person.

BTW...my leader is God. : )

Lisa,

Good post I could not have said it better myself.

I don't ask you to belive as I belive dumpling. I don't ask you to change. Like sawdust said I mainly ask to be left alone. I suspect that is all you ask for as well.

It is disapointing that so many Christians forget that this country was populated by people fleeing religious persecution and thier ancestors are now so happy to do the same thing to others.

Dumpling go ahead and hate Christians if you want to but in the spirt of mutual respect please refrain from Christian bashing and I will refrain from gay bashing, is that fair enough?

Lisa,

Although, I don't have faith, I respect those that do. I applaud the good things that religion tries to do.

Dumpling....
"We who hate must be wary, lest we . . . become like those we are taught to despise." - Soleveichik.

Yes, "2001" is a movie. It just happens to illustrate a way of looking at things that reduces this evolution vs. religion thing to the nonsense it likely is.

If you watch "Master and Commander", the controversy is gutted even more elegantly.

"I applaud the good things that religion tries to do. "

Like telling people in AIDS-stricken countries that using condoms is a sin?

Or campaigning against stem cell research?

So, just out of curiosity, your position is religion never helps anyone to any good thing?

Lisa, Tao; You both would have been burned at the stake for heresy during christianity's foundings for your warm fuzzy beliefs.

You are christian heretics, you are not true chrsitians.

True christians follow the word of the bible - writ by God. This includes leviticus, romans, numbers...They do not pick-and-choose what they believe.

christian heretics follow their warm-fuzzy feelings about what their 'personal relationshsip with christ'.

True Christians have made ME their enemy. And in doing so I respond in kind.

Having spent 50 years in this country, all I've seen is Gays being punched, kicked and killed in the name of God - including my Husband who was bashed in the head from behind with a metal pipe by a born-again in his home town. My Husband's Crime? Eating dinner with his sister at a restaraunt while wearing a rainbow shirt.

I don't do business with christians.

I will not celebrate their weddings, holidays or holy moments.

I sign petitions to limit their attempts to enforce their religion as law.

I ask if someone is a christian BEFORE I befreind them. If they are, I DON'T.

And you two, with your gushy quasi-liberal beliefs...are NOT true christians.

You will know this one day. And on that day we all will live in harmony.

Or campaigning against gay rights?

Oh, and where are the women Priests?

And...

If 'God' is your Leader, Lisa ( ;-) ),

Then where was he on 9/11? You pray for protections from your 'god' and then he doesn't protect you.

Then you ask why. And he doesn't answer.

so then you make excuses for it and wail..."god will be with the victims' families..."
and when he isn't?
You say he must have his reasons.
Some leader.

P.T. Barnum was right. Something about suckers born every minute.

Dumpling takes the position no one was ever hurt by a person who identified him or herself as Gay.

Related to this, he tells Christians they can't be Christians if they don't hate him, which happens to be the central thing Christians are asked to do.

Dumpling would be very upset if I enquired as to his sexual preference before I agreed to socialize with him.

Billy,


Like telling people in AIDS-stricken countries that using condoms is a sin?

Or campaigning against stem cell research?


Religion does some good, why tear it down, just try to correct it....

Religion views have changed over the years due to science and political whims, just like governments. Its called evolution. Rather than put people on the defensive and just tear it down.

Try to educate.....

Why are you so hateful ?

Looks like satisfaction of personal curiosity is doomed to frustration this day.

"Religion does some good, why tear it down, just try to correct it...."

The bad vastly outweighs the good. 2000 years of Christian history speaks for itself: bigotry and intolerance, inquisitions and religious wars, persecution of science, etc. There's a reason the age of religious rule was called "The Dark Ages".

"Why are you so hateful ?"

Why is the Church so hateful?

"The bad vastly outweighs the good...."

J.S. Bach makes up for quite a bit, actually.

Billy,


The bad vastly outweighs the good. 2000 years of Christian history speaks for itself: bigotry and intolerance, inquisitions and religious wars, persecution of science, etc. There's a reason the age of religious rule was called "The Dark Ages".


I disagree with you, as I look around Tucson, and SanJose, its religious groups that are doing the heavy lifting in humanitarian efforts.

Actually having been to a couple of Humane Borders meetings, and homeless and battered woman shelters, they tend to be run by religious groups.

Now your telling me that religion is bad and all that "good" needs to stop....because of something that happened 1000 years ago.

You really are a creationist, your world is stuck in the past histories, and complaints. You can't see that things evolve......

So, if the Church were nicer, Bill would have no reason but to be a little ray of sunshine.

Dumpling,

While many christians would(and do) hate me because of my warm fuzzy christianity, many feel the same way I do.

In fact if you study the words and deeds of Jesus I think that you would find he would agree more with me than them.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", well I would like to say I am without sin but cannot say that therefore I try to refrain from casting stones. (maybe thats why i skiped the G8 this year)

Granted a heavy handed discusion of Christianity is probably not in order here but let me ask you this. If God sent his son to save us, don't you think he would want us to act as much like his son as possible? Even if it went against his previous teachings.

"its religious groups that are doing the heavy lifting in humanitarian efforts. "

Yeah, a few soup kitchens are comparable to policies that cause thousands, if not millions of deaths from AIDS and poverty in developing countries. Give me a break.

"..because of something that happened 1000 years ago."

Try reading, Andrea. I'm talking about their entire history, including what they do today.

Again, just out of curioisty, can you tell me where I can find a soup kitchen run by atheists?

""...In fact if you study the words and deeds of Jesus I think that you would find he would agree more with me than them."

You can't even proved the man was alive!

and that's just the start of it!

Yeah, that's a real positive thing religion does, Andrea, telling people to live their lives in fear of some imaginary Big Dictator in the sky, and don't complain about, or try to reform, real existing life because Heaven awaits in the afterlife. What a lot of superstitious bullshit. Might as well believe in astrology.

"can you tell me where I can find a soup kitchen run by atheists?"

Atheism isn't a church or organization, it's the absence of belief in theism, nothing more.

This is a fascinating thread. The atheists are demonstrating the nastiness of religion by being nasty. I'll bet it would be possible to write an entire book with that theme.

"Atheism isn't a church or an organization...."

So, no atheist clubs or associations anyplace? No atheist societies for the betterment of Man? Who would have thought.

"The atheists are demonstrating the nastiness of religion by being nasty."

We have a long way to go to catch up with with the barbaric history of religion.

"We have a long way....."

Bill, in all seriousness, a great amount of evil has been created in this world by a sense of entitlement.

You want to be cruel because someone else is or was, fine. Doesn't sound like anything different from what you complain about.

In fact, what you sound like is another primitive looking for heads because the next tribe got some.

I'm getting depressed, so I'm out of here.

Of course Bill moral relativisim leads to such a wonderful world.

"...Dumpling takes the position no one was ever hurt by a person who identified him or herself as Gay..."

Gays are not influenced by DOGMA to hurt/kill people. Christians are. Big difference. You lose the point, Mr Onward Christian SOLDIER.

"...He tells Christians they can't be Christians if they don't hate him..."

Yes, Leviticus demands it. Romans, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Or don't you read your Damn Bible, Zed. You lose a second point.

"...Dumpling would be very upset if I enquired as to his sexual preference before I agreed to socialize with him...."

You damn will ask me what my preference is in the first few minutes of meeting me, as you will say "Are you married? Children? No, what's wrong, You Gay?. He Gay!...Me no likey-likey anymore."

Happens to me all the time, Pal, so get used to it. Lost point 3, set, game match.

Try better next time Zed. Next loser...

"...Religion does some good, why tear it down..."

Religion doesn't do anything 'good' without getting something back, like converting poor souls at a soup kitchen!

Or taking tax payer dollars in the billions for worthless Abstinence programs.

..."Religion views have changed over the years...Its called evolution...Posted by AndreaMackris

Now that is a barrel of laughs. Too stupid to comment on.

Now your telling me that religion is bad and all that "good" needs to stop....because of something that happened 1000 years ago....

There is no good. Only conversion. Sing Hallelujah!!!

Andrea, you are simple minded. Evolution doesn't exist to christians, you fool.

Dumpling,

Wow not sure where you live but I really hate it for you.

It sounds like you have been subjected to the worst in people and for that I apologize.

Please remember not all Christians or Stright people are as close minded and bigoted as those you have run into.

"...Granted a heavy handed discusion of Christianity is probably not in order..."

Lol. Nothing about Christianity can even be considered worthy of discussion. It is a fallacy, based on an unprovable premise that cannot in anyway be declared even remotely true.

"...If God sent his son to save us, don't you think he would want us to act as much like his son as possible? Even if it went against his previous teachings...."

WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!!!

What do you mean, 'going against his previous teachings????'

I thought God was Perfect? Isn't he?

ISN'T HE?

Why would he 'Go Against His Previous Teachings????'

Because your religion, and ERGO YOU, are schizophrenic.

Next time you're speaking with God, ask him how a perfect being could need correction?

Oh yeah, He has his reasons...His Wonders to Behold!!!!

Pathetic.

TAO; "Please remember not all Christians or Stright people are as close minded and bigoted as those you have run into...."

Don't bring 'Straight People' into this. I haven't said anything about 'straight people'. Half my friends are 'Straight People'. And they would die by my side in a fight against the Christo-Apocalyptic Armaggedonist running this country and YOUR religion.

Christians are closed minded bigots simply by viture of the fact that they IGNORE all and any evidence that contradicts their story of miracles and wonder.

Hell, you might as well worship the Great And Glorious Wizard Of Oz....

"You want to be cruel because someone else is or was, fine. "

Bullshit. Where am I advocating being "cruel"? What's cruel is people dying from poverty and starvation and AIDS because some superstitious organization tells them that using condoms is sinful. Now, that's cruel.

"Of course Bill moral relativisim leads to such a wonderful world."

What are you talking about, Tao?

"Atheist Soup Kitchens..."

It's called FOOD-STAMPS you mutt.

sorry, zed - Link of Jesus Proof attributed to TaoWarrior instead...My bad

Dumpling,

What do you mean, 'going against his previous teachings????'

I thought God was Perfect? Isn't he?

He is. Times change and so the way we must live our life must change as well. I am sorry that you have only run into those Christians stuck in the 14th century. Had you met me before them you might have a diferent opinion. Might not too but who knows.

"True Christians have made ME their enemy. "

No. "Christians" who don't understand what the Bible tells them, have made you their enemy.

I read your post several times, Dumpling,
trying to set some thoughts straight before I started posting.

First of all, I'm truly sorry that some one hurt your husband. Obviously, that person is an extremist....and most definately isn't doing God's work.

Secondly, I'm trying to understand what makes you think you know my inner heart and soul, much less my beliefs which I rarely get into here because I don't treat those who don't share my beliefs, as I have been treated...with hatred and name calling, therefore, try to stay away from this subject on this site.

You really seem to be hurting and I can't say I blame you. It's horrible what you have been put through. And I don't stand behind those who have done it.

You seem to confuse people's actions with God's word. God has not instructed us to go out and gay bash. People take it upon themselves to do that. And they are wrong.

We do not have the power to sit in judgement and those that due, causing pain to those who are no more a sinner than they themselves are.....will be dealt with. You may not believe it, but I do.

I will say this, you are treating others...innocent people that had nothing to do with your situation, your bad experiences, with the same exact hatred that they have displayed to you.

I don't think it makes you right. Nor do I think you help your situation. You are alienating many people on this site alone who stand behind you in your fight for equality.

One thing is for sure....I'd never, EVER ask you what your sexual preference was before I found you worthy to be my friend.

"...His home was Nazareth. He was called "Jesus of Nazareth"; and there he is said to have lived until the closing years of his life.

Now comes the question -- Was there a city of Nazareth in that age? The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says:

"We cannot perhaps venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time."

No certainty that there was a city of Nazareth! Not only are the supposed facts of the life of Christ imaginary, but the city of his birth and youth and manhood existed, so far as we know, only on the map of mythology.

What amazing evidence to prove the reality of a Divine man! Absolute ignorance as to his ancestry; nothing whatever known of the time of his birth, and even the existence of the city where he is said to have been born, a matter of grave question!..."

Wrong Lisa - that man DID GOD'S WORK when he cracked my Husband's skull open.

You think he learned to do that in the atheist world?

You really seem to be hurting and I can't say I blame you...

I'm not hurting at all. Don't play sympathetic Victimizer with your warm fuzzy sap-sucking christian ways.

Your religion is false. You are wrercking the world by playing innocent. And just because you are a part of it means YOU MUST OWN IT.

Get off the pot you pathetic twit.

Dumpling,

I see you did not bother reading the article which had quotes from 2 historians. I did not draw on the gospel for the very reasons you cite.

Bill,

Christians have done bad things so it is ok for Atheist to as well = moral relativisim.

I don't treat those who don't share my beliefs, as I have been treated...with hatred and name calling

Lisa, you are a liar and a hypocrite.

You were banned from this site for 10 days specifically because you engaged in hateful, and abusive namecalling.

As someone, who has been at the receiving end of your vicious abusive comments and names-- abuse that was and is entirely unprovoked as I have only been civil to you regardless of your lack of civility with me -- I have first hand knowledge that you do not even come close to practice what you are preaching.

Moral relativism is NOT Moral Pluralism, Tao. Do some research on the meaning of Moral Relativism and it's history in philosophy.

You cannot use definition of Moral Relativism as bandied about by your christian leaders who are in a struggle to wipe out all relativism except, of course, their own, which is a singular christo-centric biblical Universal Morality. And, BTW, completely bullshit.

Dumpling,

Wrong Lisa - that man DID GOD'S WORK when he cracked my Husband's skull open.

No Dumpling he did not. He may have hidden behind the mantle of doing God's work but he most certainly did not do God's work.

Listen I do own his actions despite disagreeing with them. I have already apologized to you for them. I do not agree with much of what the christian church teaches. They want to have both the old and the new testament. The fact is the gift of Jesus to the world changed everything. Many religions use the old testament for fear, fire and brimstone while profesing to follow Jesus unfortunatly you can not have it both ways.

"that man DID GOD'S WORK when he cracked my Husband's skull open."

Claiming to do things for God, and actually do something in accordance to God's word are two completely different things.

I don't recall God instructing us to go crack the skulls open of all gays.

Of course I'm sympathetic to your struggle. It's the same I feel for anyone anyone fighting against injustice. And it most certainly doesn't bring "warm fuzzies"....it brings anger and pain to me and many other Christians that I know, knowing that people are acting out hatred by hurting those who are really...no different than themselves.

My youngest son is named after someone who fought against injustice. I feel that passionately about it.

The fact is Dumpling....you are worsening your cause by your attitude.

And the bottom line is, not one of us has died to really know under uncertain terms that God does not exist.

Until then, I have faith and believe what I do.

"He may have hidden behind the mantle of doing God's work but he most certainly did not do God's work."

Exactly, Tao.

"Obviously you're not Gay, Black, Feminist or otherwise Non-Christian.

Because if you were, you would have suffered at some point in your life by the actions of White Moral Christian Republicans (males and females)." Posted by DUMPLING1

Well, I distinctly remember some not so wonderful times in a Baptist home in Port Arthur, Texas, back in the '40's when I got a beating because I "hadn't had one in a while." Also got one for blowing a little toy harmonica in a Church of Christ when I resided in another home in El Paso, Texas. They don't tolerate any man-made musical instruments. Incidently, these folks were democrats, mostly female. BUT, I doubt if any were really Christians in their hearts. I can't recall any scripture where Christ recommends ass whuppin's. On the other hand, I think Islam has some SERIOUS repercussions for gay folks.

"As a Gay Man, I do suffer nearly every day from the hate spewed by your kind from every corner of this country, and others, and there is NO equal time to rebuke your crap."

My kind??? If you come up with this kind of rhetoric every time you're around straight people or Christians, no wonder you suffer. I have a gay nephew who lives quietly with his partner in NJ who tells me he avoids people like you because they INVITE trouble. He has no problems with the straight (and religious) crowd with which he associates. Owns a house in the middle of a Catholic neighborhood. I've attended cook outs there where his neighbors attended and treated he and his partner very well.

"No Jest, you don't get a warm fuzzsy christian pass. You and ALL christians are nothing but immature, hypocritical, non-thinking peons grovelling at the feet of an invisibile 'god' who is so impotent He (it?) couldn't even stop two little planes before they smashed into the twin towers at WTC."

Oh, I don't know...Some Christians come across as being very bright...and tolerant, which it appears YOU aren't. I said before I'm not very religious, but I DO think there must be some higher power. I look around at the world, the universe, all the living things, and I say, "This couldn't all have come about by accident." However, I pretty much eschew organized religion. I think I was last in a church in '96 for a neice's wedding. (Her gay brother attende also.) I also don't believe there is a god who orcestrates EVERY move made by EVERY individual. He/She/It pretty much has allowed us to have free will. Surely, since YOU are certainly NOT one of those "immature, hypocritical, non-thinking peons" of whom you speak, you shouldn't be having all the problems you exhibit here. Maybe, just MAYBE, YOU should look to yourself as the cause of your problems in the world.

Dumpling, as a Gay Man, you of all people should know how horrible discrimination and persecution is -- how wrong it is to judge someone not by the content of their character but instead by the color of their skin, their gender, their sexual orientation or their religion.

How is your hatred of All Christians as expressed in your 12:41 post any different from the hatred by some Christians of all homosexuals?

No group has a monopoly on intolerance.

Lisa. YOU cannot have it both ways. If 'God' does not want the old testament and the new testament to stand together he can speak up and tell someone. Anyone.

At any time.

The 'Fact' is Jesus never existed.

Your 'CHURCH' through the centuries have killed hundreds of millions of people who DID NOT WANT to hear Christian Bullshit, which was really just a way to trap 'slave-labor' into Colonialization while suffering the subjugation of their own peoples and cultures.

Jesus is not a 'gift'

Jesus is a convenient lie by thieves who have duped the flock for centuries.

"You are wrercking the world by playing innocent."

Your hatred for all Christians....for people who don't have the same beliefs as yours, makes it much better????

"And just because you are a part of it means YOU MUST OWN IT."

I own only what I personally have done. You will not push the actions of some onto me because of my beliefs.
No matter how hard you want to force their actions unto me....I'm not responsible for them.

I don't like Bush or his administration. I don't like a few republican posters here...same with a few democrats...but I still have friendships with good, decent people affiliated with both parties. Those people are not responsible for the actions of those I dislike. Nor would I be foolish enough, filled with that much hatred to lump them all together, saying they're all bad.

I'm begining to wonder if the difficulties you have experienced had more to do with your attitude, rather than your sexual preference.

"If 'God' does not want the old testament and the new testament to stand together he can speak up and tell someone. Anyone."

He did just that when he sent Jesus.

"The 'Fact' is Jesus never existed."

This is not fact...it's opinion.

But...you're entitled to it.

As I said before...we will see upon our deaths, just who was "duped'.

Jestgettingalong: what? Never read the bible? IUh...

Spare the rod, spoil the child. If your children swear at you, stone them to death.

Once again another cherry-picking christian who can't own the traditional godly violence of His word.

And BTW:

"...I have a gay nephew who lives quietly with his partner in NJ who tells me he avoids people like you because they INVITE trouble..."

Oh I see, Jest: "We don't need no uppity nigguhs in an aroun us making trouble for da man.

Sometin' nice an all he live quietly wid his par'ner an all. Don't wanna be loud, just wanna live wid the white folks..."

Pathetic.

"However, I pretty much eschew organized religion."

I'm right with you on this one.

That's not what Jest was saying, Dumpling.

If you weren't so angry and bitter, you'd have seen what he meant.

"The 'Fact' is Jesus never existed." Posted by DUMPLING1

Strange...I think many, many cultures and religions recognize that he existed. The big argument was whether or not he was the "Messiah," the son of God. I would be very interested in seeing the data you accept as "fact" that he never existed. Somehow, I'm beginning to believe you have some SERIOUS problems which need urgent attention.

From Lisa: "...Those people are not responsible for the actions of those I dislike..."

Tell me WHEN WILL YOU STAND UP AGAINST THOSE THAT SPOIL YOUR RELIGION OF PEACE?

Huh? When?

Or are you too living QUIETLY in the neighborhood next to Cathollics?

You do nothing. You just stand back and let 'the righteous' deliver HELL to everyone else because you know in your heart that it's better to have the Christian Religion running things than not.

You PUT UP with religious extremism. You do NOTHING to prevent it.

You want to do something about it? Leave your religion behind.

Grow up.

Dumpling:

You are way out of hand. You are making assumptions then getting angry about them.

Not very logical.

My faith, my beliefs are fine.

You want to be angry, be angry at those who have done you harm.

It certainly wasn't me.

"Pathetic twit...."

My goodness. Leave to take a shower and the Pythons take over the thread. Bring me a shrubbery!

There is NO PROOF jesus lived at all. All serious scholars, except Theologians, know this.

And before you retort, remember this;

Theologians thought the world was flat and imprisoned the man who proved it wasn't.

I take it the unpleasantness of the anti-religous strain to this thread needs no further debate?

"You PUT UP with religious extremism."

There is a difference between people of faith and extremists.

"Spare the rod, spoil the child. If your children swear at you, stone them to death."

In which book, chapter and verse did Christ say that, DUMPLING?

"Oh I see, Jest: "We don't need no uppity nigguhs in an aroun us making trouble for da man.

Sometin' nice an all he live quietly wid his par'ner an all. Don't wanna be loud, just wanna live wid the white folks..."

I must be missing something here. Wasn't the movement about being able to live quietly in society WITHOUT trouble. THEY have succeeded, must be something wrong with you that YOU haven't. I'm a gay tolerant kind of guy, but YOU could piss me off in just a short time making me want to ostracize you myself.

And no...I don't "put up with them".

You can't say the same after your admittance that you won't even befriend a Christian.

Don't throw out accusations after you've proven to be guilty of what you accuse me of.

A very short invenstigation reveals inscriptions found at Caesara Maritima refering to priests living in Nazareth, the non-existant settlement.

Until a few years ago, some unbeleivers doubted the existence of Pilate, until his villa was excavated.

Well, Duh, Lisa. I am angry at those who do us gays harm EVERY DAY.

They are called CHRISTIANS. And whether you like it or not, you're one.

It's as if you're saying; Yes I'm a Nazi. But there are bad Nazis and good Nazis. And I'm a Good Nazis, and I'm not responsible for the bad ones.

Haven't you been paying attention sweety?

Too busy making communion wafer?

Personally I don't care if Romney is Mormon or not. If I agreed with all his politics I would vote for him in the primary. I don't so I won't. If he gets the nomination though, he has my vote.

"There is NO PROOF jesus lived at all. All serious scholars, except Theologians, know this."

Madeline O'Hare was a scholar!? Damn, you coulda fooled ME. You are a strange dude, Dumplin'. Or are you just jerking our chains here today?

"Have you been paying attention sweety....?"

Jesus wept.

Oh, just my opinion, but there were some good Nazis. Spielberg made a movie about one even the Jews liked.

Dumpling:

They are self proclaimed Christians....definately not doing God's work.

Ever hear the phrase "beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing"?

Ummm...I'm half German and I don't consider myself a Nazi, nor do I hold myself accountable for horrible acts the Nazi's committed.

At this point, Dumpling...I'm going to leave this conversation. There is no point in furthering it.

I wish you and your husband well and a long peaceful life together.

"Well, Duh, Lisa. I am angry at those who do us gays harm EVERY DAY."

"US gays," Dumplin'? US implies that all gays are being harmed every day. I just told you about some that aren't. I can certainly understand how YOU are gettin' it every day, but it doesn't apply to all gays, trust me on this one.

The question of Nazareth is whether the city existed before your 'savior' was born (or not) or created as a memorial to the story.

You don't believe that the god Jupiter actually lived in Florida do you?

Not that I've had any luck at all getting questions answered today, but aren't some gays Christians?

Every day that gays are denied the basic human rights afford to straights is another day of harm.

Don't pretend it isn't real.

So, gay Christians---That's like Jewish Nazis, right?

Jest: I don't trust you just on the fact that you suspend your rational faculties to believe in your Christ. Why would you ever THINK I would trust you in regards to your statements on Gays?

Again purely out of curiosity, when you meet a gay Christian, do you call them names?

Zed: Absolutely...

"Not that I've had any luck at all getting questions answered today, but aren't some gays Christians?"

Yes. I know Christians who are gay.

But I'm sure that Dumpling would insist they aren't Christians.

Not only do I call them names, I beg them to leave their self-loathing masochistic love of the fairy tale christ behind and get on with life.

I believe Gays are more intelligent than that; to fall in love with the oppressor's scam.

"Again purely out of curiosity, when you meet a gay Christian, do you call them names?"

Posted by Zed at 2007-06-02 04:24 PM | Reply | Flag:


"Zed: Absolutely..."

Posted by DUMPLING1

This is just to unbelievable for words.

Does begging work, Dumpling? And if not, why would you say?

Gay christians are waiting to find the light away from the stupidity of christianity. Their reasons for staying are multitudenous, but injurous none-the-less.

The Nazis were christian, Lisa...how about them cupcakes?

you're unbelievable!

"You don't believe that the god Jupiter actually lived in Florida do you?"

No, of course not. It was Neptune who lived there. Jupiter lived in Colorado.

"I take it the unpleasantness of the anti-religous strain to this thread needs no further debate?"

Nothing wrong with being anti-religious, anymore than being anti-communist or anti-fascist.

Any of the Gays that I have confronted with the lies of christ, the bible and Religion in general, makes their own choice.

Some have seen the light of Reason and chucked their shackles of bondage into the garbage, others not.

I can only do what I can do in one life time.

And each one converted back to rationality is a HUGE WIN.

So, a gay Christian couldn't want to be Christian because he got something he liked from it, the way I do?

"The Nazis were christian, Lisa...how about them cupcakes?"

You continue to blanket all Christians as "one in the same".

Until you can grow up, put aside your anger for just a few minutes to logically, rationally have a discussion...there is no need for me take your posts seriously.

Geez, Dumpling....I've never seen you so over the top as I have today.

"Every day that gays are denied the basic human rights afford to straights is another day of harm."

What human rights are you denied, Dumpling? Hell I'm a member of the only minority NOT protected by special legislation. You can kill me and not be charged with a "hate" crime, but I can be charged with one just by mistreating you a little. Get off it. Quit feeling so sorry for yourself and get a life.

My dear Dumpling----My that has a ring to it----Hitler was a pagan if anything. His plan was to replace Christianity with something else.

Not only do I call them names, I beg them to leave their self-loathing masochistic love of the fairy tale christ behind and get on with life.

I believe Gays are more intelligent than that; to fall in love with the oppressor's scam.


Posted by DUMPLING1 at 2007-06-02 04:27 PM | Reply

I am bisexual I am also Catholic and I also believe in Jesus Christ so let those Insults rip. Oh and Please make them good ones cause I would hate for You to deliver Lame ones. Thank You in Advance.

Larry

Bill, please be as anti-religous as you like. My point is that you and Dale Carnegie have little in common.

It was the Democratic Christian National Socialist Party.

What don't you get in that?

And I suppose you'll next say that the Communists were atheist? Even though of course they supported the Orthodox Russian Church for 70 years...

Truth is wasted on a christian.

I wouldn't be able to shake hands with a Mormon, either. I'd be too busy flipping through a phone book trying to find a psychologist that would help extricate them from what I see as a cult.

No need to insult you Larry. Just wake up.

Drop the bible and step away from the religion.

Well, the world has Christian zealots, Jewish zealots, Islamic zealots, and now the world has Dumpling zealot. They're all the same to me. I don't like zealots of ANY stripe.

"What don't you get in that....?"

What I get is that you aren't really interested in WWII or Nazis.

"...What human rights are you denied, Dumpling? Hell I'm a member of the only minority NOT protected by special legislation....

Where have you been for the past fifty years? Living on an Island?

a) I cannot legally marry the PERSON of my choice.

Your reply: Sure you can. It just has to be of the oppisite sex.

b) I have no protection in the work place in many of the states in this country.

Your Reply; Then don't live there.

c) The federal Government does not recognize MY CLASS of people for protection under the federal hate crime laws, EVEN THOUGH your CLASS OF PEOPLE (religious) have those protections.

Convenient, isn't it, since it's your CLASS OF PEOPLE, (christians) who are purposely BLOCKING my right to access those fedral laws.

THATS WHAT!

Replying directly to the unidentified man, the former governor said: "One of the great things about this great land is we have people of different faiths and different persuasions, and I'm convinced that the nation -- that the nation does need -- the nation does need to have people of different faiths, but we need to have a person of faith lead the country."

Basically Romney just said that he doesn't believe an atheist should be president, so I don't see how's he's any different than the dude who said that he doesn't want a mormon to be president.

So easy for you to call Hitler a Pagan.

Who do you think erroneously scoured the earth looking for the Spear that piereced your Savior's Chest at the crucifixtion?

Donald Duck?

Most of us call Hitler a Madman.

Romey is a Liar. Romey is UnAmerican.

Romey IGNORES the U.S. Constitution that states there Shall Be No Religious Test of any kind for office.

Only Christians in the last 60 years have pushed for this test.

Wonder Why?

ah Hell, what do he care? He probably thinks the Constitution is a 'Goddamn Piece of Paper' too.

No need to insult you Larry. Just wake up.

Drop the bible and step away from the religion.

Posted by DUMPLING1 at 2007-06-02 04:38 PM | Reply

Oh I am Very awake sweetie. Oh and I LOVE My Bible it brings Me great Comfort when necessary. Sorry to have disapointed You.

Larry

Yeah your bible really helped everyone on 9/11. Where was god, sweetie?

I mean, people REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,

needed him.

He was a no show.

"The federal Government does not recognize MY CLASS of people for protection under the federal hate crime laws, EVEN THOUGH your CLASS OF PEOPLE (religious) have those protections."

Gays ARE protected under the hate crime statutes. You keep referring to MY class as "religious" when I have told you I don't practice an organized religion. You do though. It appears to me you are a gay, militant, protesting, atheist. That's kinda like a religion to me.

Must break for food. Needless to say, I won't be asking for Blessings while I devour PBJ's.

"a) I cannot legally marry the PERSON of my choice.

Your reply: Sure you can. It just has to be of the oppisite sex. -dumpling1"

Just a question, what opposite sex would transgendered people be allowed to marry?

GAYS ARE NOT protected under the Federal Hate Crime Act. Congress, held hostage by christians, will not pass it.

Are you out of the loop.

You don't have to practice organized religion to be protected by federal law for your own religious beliefs.

You are out of the loop aren't you?

Good to see you, Zat.

Generico?

Who do you think a HERMAPHRODITE should marry?

Huh?

People should be able to marry the Person THEY LOVE.

End of story.

Your question pails in comparision to the one I wrote here.

You DO know what a hermaphrodite is, don't you?

How could GOD create a hermaphrodite?

Or is a HE/SHE just a FREAK of NATURE.

Yeah, right; Nice God.

Keep moving on, Generico, nothing for you to see here.

Dumpling,

Feel free to ignore or respond to this post but I will tell you in advance I am not returning to this thread.

I accept that you hate me for my belifs and while that does make me sad I understand that only you can free yourself from hate. I can not do it for you.

I do fight against intolerance whenever I find it no matter what it's name and no matter who is being intolerant.

I am sorry for the trouble you have had in life. I hope that you find peace some day.

"My point is that you and Dale Carnegie have little in common."

Good. Dale Carnegie was an idiot.

"Congress defines hate crime as "a crime in which the defendant intentionally selects a victim, or in the case of a property that is the object of the crime, because of the actual or perceived race, color, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person ."


Section 28003(a) of the Violent Crime Control
and Law Enforcement Act of 1994928 U.S.C.

"I mean, people REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,REALLY, REALLY,

needed him."

As they cried out His name, as they prayed to Him....He was there with them. And He took them to their heavenly home.

Now...I am REALLY done with this subject. I've gone much farther with it than I intended.

"Congress defines hate crime as "a crime in which the defendant intentionally selects a victim, or in the case of a property that is the object of the crime, because of the actual or perceived race, color, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person ."


Section 28003(a) of the Violent Crime Control
and Law Enforcement Act of 1994928 U.S.C.

Problem is, Dumpling, that the feds don't want to investigate those crimes leaving it to the states. Which, in my opinion, is what SHOULD happen. Why should it be up to the feds to investigate and prosecute a crime in a particular state just because it has the word, "hate" attached to it. Seems to me just about any violent crime has some degree of hate connected to it. Even YOU exhibit a great deal of hate. I'd call it a hate crime if you assaulted a Christian anyway.

Dumpling1, I support gay marriage. We've had it here in Canada for a while now and it hasn't destroyed society. I hope you weren't offended by my use of the term transgendered, I was wrong and you were right. Hermaphrodite is a more descriptive term (although I found out that intersexed is now the correct term). After re-reading your post I realize we are on the same page, though. Marriage should be something between two loving, consenting adults, not the government and really not religious groups.

Yes, Dumpling---Hitler looked for the Spear Of Longinus. There is are books written by those that say they were there that they found it for him, and that it is still being kept somewhere in secret.

Why did he want that Spear? Have you got a few hours? Mostly, because he wanted to piss on it and make Christ symbollically his.

It's easy for me to call Hitler a pagan because I'm familiar with his thought and that of other Nazis philosophers.

And, for the record, while Dale Carnegie may have been an idiot in many ways, he was at least right when he said winning friends is a good thing.

I gotta go, Dumpling, but may I suggest a therapy which is guaranteed to make you more tolerant of Christians. Take a thirty day vacation to Iran. After you arrive, find the nearest Mullah, announce in a loud voice, "I am gay and I detest your religion for the manner in which it treats gays." The therapy will be instantaneous and very successful.

"we need to have a person of faith lead the country"

Hey here's an idea...

Howsabout a Christian who's also let's see... White and... just fer laughs let's make him a guy too.

A White Male Christian leader that's wot America needs!

Bush basically sed once that he didn't consider athiests to be Americans.

He's such a stupid man.

In point of fact, it makes waaaay more sense to elect an athiest than a person with religious convictions in Spud's mind.

The only Heaven an athiest knows is the heaven he can make on earth and so he (or she) gets at it.

Religious folk tend not to worry about Heaven on Earth so much because they're worried about and comforted by the other typa Heaven.

The crazier ones believe in nutty biblical end times scenarios that have a negative impact on relationships in the ME.

Dumplings attempts here to try an athiese folk like Larry and Lisa remind Spud of those religious whackjobs who, in 3 magic weeks, "hetrofied" Ted Haggard back into respectability.

Religion will never stop Gay folk from being Gay.

Gay folk and athiests cannot stop religion.

The best thing all these groups can do is practise tolerance and peaceful co-existence. The fact that some folk, like "Felcher Phelps", think their religious beliefs justify their "right to hate" is the heart of the real problem here.

Spud doesn't believe in the slippery slope of hate crime law because that espouses "special rights".

Equal rights for gay folk is a moral and socio-political neccessity, if one is dedicated to the ideal of building a more stable and just society.

All that sed Spud finds proselytising in the name of Athiesm to be about as annoying as a JW at the door on a Saturday morning.

As well as being highly counter-productive.

Spud stopped fighting the existence of religion a while back.

Now Spud just tries to make them be more moral (or at least think about it) mostly by shaming them with morality based argument.

Anyhoo... That's Spud's two cents.

Be Well.

PS: Over-reliance on a sense that "God's Plan" is working stops some folks from taking "Man's Plan" seriously.

What if there is no God in the Machine to descend in the final act and save us all from ourselves?

What if the only thing that can save us is ourselves?

"Spud doesn't believe in the slippery slope of hate crime law because that espouses "special rights"."

Wow...ol' jester and Spud agree on sumpin.

"All that sed Spud finds proselytising in the name of Athiesm to be about as annoying as a JW at the door on a Saturday morning."

Wow...AGAIN! So long, everybody play nice now.

"Dumplings attempts here to try an athiese folk like Larry and Lisa "

LOL

If Mike, who is calm and intelligent couldn't do it, Dumpling and his mad rants aren't going to do it either!

See Dumpling...Mike is not a Christian. He doesn't have a belief in God.

Yet....we manage to get along very, very well.

Sad you can't seem to do the same with those who you disagree with.

Zats Back!

Woo Hoo!

"no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States"

Amen!

Jestclunkingalong has a tip fer Dumpling...

"find the nearest Mullah"

Wot a charmer, eh?

Because the Muslims in the ME are still savage enuff to stone a person to death for being gay, or being a raped woman who's "dishonored" her family or somebody who dares question religious authority aint exactly wot ya'd call a big selling point fer religion there, Jest.

Just because the Muslims prectise an even more severe strain of homophobic hate than their western counter-parts doesn't mean either of them are right.

Wrong is wrong.

Yer example only shows the dangers of allowing religion and government to merge as they have done so dangerously under Bush.

The fact that most Christians in the west hate gays less than their Muslim counterparts in the ME is nice

...but it's nothing to brag about.

Be Well.

I really like this one...

"Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which as to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher."

- Professor Stanton occupies the chair in New Testament Studies at Cambridge University

Well Dear Lisa,

I believe that you and your christian companions should be under psychological counseling for your affliction of mass dellusion.

Would you want to 'get along' with someone who believed Pink Elephants Flew, lived in the sky and had magical powers?

No?

That's right. You'd want them to see a shrink ASAP.

I think you should too. Just because you have found others willing to suspend disbelief in following the mythical Jesus, doesn't mean you're correct. It means you are no more intelligent than a mormon, or scientologist.

Get thee to a shrink.

RE: Historical Jesus. Yeah, quote from the Head Chair of the New Testament Studies at Cambridge; Like that's not putting the wolf in charge of the hen house.

BWAWAWAWA

"Jestclunkingalong has a tip fer Dumpling...

"find the nearest Mullah" Posted by DETHSPUD

Now, now, Spudpuppy, let us not take things out of context here. Ol' dumplin' only has a hard on for Christians and the United States. I was suggesting he vacation in Iran and declare his sexual orientation to the nearest mullah. It might do something to relieve his morbid hatred of just the ONE religion he loathes.

"Because the Muslims in the ME are still savage enuff to stone a person to death for being gay, or being a raped woman who's "dishonored" her family or somebody who dares question religious authority aint exactly wot ya'd call a big selling point fer religion there, Jest."

Wasn't tryin' to sell any religion, Spud. I have stated earlier that I'm not part of any organized religion and I HATE proselytizing. I spent many years in the Orient and kinda liked the way the Buddhists conducted themselves. I'm not Buddhist either, before you come to that conclusion. Ol' Dumplin' seems to have this obssession with Christians and I was just pointing out that things COULD be worse for him.

Michaud identified himself to reporters as "a liberal" who planned to vote for Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-New York

The press hyped up this guy, wow, the man would shake Romi's hand. I suspect it's not a Mormon issue because the guy didn't seem that religious to me, he wanted some attention and got a lot of it. I suspect he just hates the Republican Party and would have voted for Romi anyway...Nice ploy there Michaud....

Why are so many upset with Dumpling1, to this point not one single fact as been spewed out of Dumps posts, ALL facts given were stated by Dumpling1 as truth in Dumpling1's own mind except that it is true there is no physical proof that Jesus was the son of God or that there is even a God nor is there any physical proof that He was not and Is not. True Christians? Dumpling1 has not met a true Christian and I guess that is the problem. GAME OVER Dumpling1. Nothing you say has any relationship to truth other than truth as you have experienced and you would not accept the real truth if it slapped you on your butt. Some self proclaimed Christians are exactly as you describe but ALL are not and not all are Republicans. BTW before history is completely rewritten this country was founded by men of faith. And maybe and I emphasize maybe, I believe most thought religion should NOT be a guiding force of our government. They were right. With all the flaws if we followed the plan we all would be better off. And in my view all sides are wrong.

God is real, God is alive and everyday I see his existence, I see His love everywhere but this does require faith from me. I look at this world and I know what science suspects but I wonder how rock turned into life?

Hey, if there is no God I lose nothing. I deplore how you have been treated and I do not believe true Christians treat others that way. Call them what you want but that is not what was taught. As a true Christian I can only judge myself and boy do I need help. I only know you by what has been written here, you are wrong about "ALL" but I do not in the least doubt your experience with so called and self proclaimed Christians. Humans are so inhuman. Well a great many anyway.

Also you were having way too much fun with this.

Live long and prosper.

"God is real, God is alive and everyday I see his existence"

What you ought to see is a doctor.

Bill, Bill, Bill, you have been irrelevant for a long time. Too bad. I skip your comments as a waste of time. And here is proof. Say what you want but you are a waste of irrelevant babble. But then I read this one, damn you got me.

"I look at this world and I know what science suspects but I wonder how rock turned into life?"

Not another IDiot!

Spud agrees that Dumpling is wrong about the "All" thing but he does have a point about the fact that one class of society who has chosen to live a certain lifestyle (ie Christians) has opted to wage political war against another class of society for being born a certain way.

In a society that suffers a fool like Fred Felcher Phelps to preach his brand of hate Dumpling has every right to be angry.

Religion doesn't give anyone a pass on hate speech.

Society is slowly wrapping it's wee collective concious around that notion.

Be Well.

This is my first post on DR, long time reader though.

It would appear to me that dumpling shares the same baseless collectivist mindset as the people he hates.

I have to ask you if you can seriously condemn every Christian for the actions of a few (well, in this case many).

You may find their beliefs ridiculous, as do I. However, the way you instantly slander anyone identifying with any form of organized religion is disgusting. You are no better than the gay-bashing religious right you preach against, and your blind militancy is detrimental to your own cause.

As far as Romney goes, I'll throw him a vote if he ever manages to find those golden plates.

Spud you are correct, well except for the idiot part. I did simplify that a bit, about the rocks but I suggest there is a real difference between real Christians and self proclaimed Christians. And if someone is born Gay or chooses to be Gay or chooses to be an adulterer I have no right as a human to condemn them and neither does anyone else. Including Christians. Neither is illegal.

Anyone catch Chris Hitchen's brother's polite evisceration of Chris' new book on religion?

What have I learned from this thread? That some people hate Christianity enough to make Stalin and Hitler Christians.

But, is that so much hatred as lack of library cards? Probably both.

I've monitored and participated in this debate for about a year now. From what I am able to tell, the height of atheist critique is this----

1) There is no God.
2) Therefore there can be no evidence of God.
3)Therefore, if you have evidence, of whatever sort, that must be a lie or a delusion
4)Because there is no evidence for God
5) Therefore there is no God.

That's not scientific, that's for sure. It's not even logical. It's so silly as not to even be very interesting. But I suppose you all are welcome to it.

1) There's no God because I haven't seen Him, plus

2) There's no God because you think you have, equals

3) "Fuzzy thinking", as my friend the radical behaviorist likes to say.

"1) There is no God.
2) Therefore there can be no evidence of God."

That's a strawman, Zed. I don't believe in God, but if you can provide evidence of he/she/it's existence, I'm listening.

"1) There's no God because I haven't seen Him, plus"

Do you believe in leprechauns? Why not? Because you haven't seen them?

RE: Historical Jesus. Yeah, quote from the Head Chair of the New Testament Studies at Cambridge;

----

Well, he carries more weight than some dumpling on the drudge, that's for sure.

And here are the Christian points:

1. There is a God, but it's who I BELIEVE God is, and not who YOU believe.

2. The world is just too complex for us to understand completely, so whatever we don't know---why the sun rises, where the edge of the earth is---must be God.
----UPDATE: We now know why the sun rises, and the earth is round. God is responsible for all the OTHER stuff we haven't figured out yet.

3. We have plenty of evidence. We have a book, written thousands of years ago, by people who had neither seen nor heard Jesus for decades. This book is perfect, despite it's claim bats are birds, hares chew their cud, and the moon is a light.

4. Because there is that inerrant book (except for the provable errors, of course), there must, therefore be a God, for if He didn't exist we wouldn't have known of him. (Note: that logic does not apply to Zeus.)

5. Therefore there is a God, mine, and that must be taught in science class, despite not a scintilla of scientific proof. And so we must teach alternatives to evolution, and by that I mean Christian creationism, not Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

6. Oh, and you have to pay your tax dollars to have my kids taught about the baby Jesus in public school, since there aren't enough places like home and church to indoctrinate them.

My goodness, Bill. If you met fourteen dozen people that had seen the Wee Folk, would that sway you at all? Not one jot, if you're going to remain consistent.

But, why don't you tell me what evidence you'd accept for God, Bill. Maybe I'll bite.

"Why don't you tell me what evidence you'd accept....?"

So, thanks for illustrating my point.

"But, why don't you tell me what evidence you'd accept for God, Bill. Maybe I'll bite."

Well if I saw a leprechaun, and other people saw it, and it was photographed, and videotaped and interviewed on national TV, that would be good enough. Same with God. Same with "space aliens", etc.

Until then, I'll decline to believe in leprechauns, visiting space aliens, and God.

From "god is not Great, How Religion Poisons Everything", Chapter Nine, The Koran is Borrowed, pp 123-124

"Islam is at once the most and least interesting of the world's monotheisms. It builds upon its primitive Jewish and Christian predecessors, selecting a chunk here and a shard there, and thus if these fall, it partly falls also. Its founding narrative likewise takes place within an astonishingly small compass, and relates facts about extremely tedious local quarrels. None of the original documents, such as they are, can be contrasted with any Hebrew or Greek or Latin texts. Almost all the tradition is oral, and all of it is in Arabic. Indeed, many authorities agree that the Koran is only intelligible in that tongue, which is itself subject to innumerable idiomatic and regional inflections. This would leave us, on the face of it, with the absurd and potentially dangerous conclusion that god was a monoglot."

Now that I've answered your question, Zed, how about answering this one. What's your evidence for God?

You can e-mail me, Bill, and I'll be glad to discuss it with you. Were you to do so, you'd be the first to take me up on the offer.

By the way, Bill---Your standard for proof seems a lot like the Second Coming. Sorry, can't quite promise you that will happen this week or, if it does, Christ will consent to be intervewwed by the electronic media.

Mormons are, however, aliens from the 11th dimension.

Just thought you might like to know.

I am Anti Mornin that makes Me an Anti Sunlight.

Larry

But shaking their hands is OK.
Just count your fingers after.
Like with a Jew or an Irishman.
Same thing, anyway.

Also by the way, you might want to consider the difference between a "strawman" and an a priori logical assumption that leads to circular reasoning. I just report what I see.

"Your standard for proof seems a lot like the Second Coming"

Extraordinary assertions demand extraordinary proof.

"DNA trail a mile wide"

Pretty "thick" too.

Thanx fer the link God.

Wow, that guy must spend a lotta time on that.

But he never answers the really big questions like...

"This eight male scenario is probable as Canaan was old enough in the first wine harvest after the flood when Noah was drunk with new wine to have either sodomised him or castrated him. The Jewish traditions discuss either scenario"

Sure, Bill----Extraordinary, like what you see on TV---So, is any of this important enough to you to contact me personally?

If you have an argument, you can make it here. Why wouldn't you want as many people as possible to hear your arguments? An email debate is almost a contradiction in terms, since there is no audience.

Ah, Bill----And you are afraid of what, exactly? We both know that whatever I have to say you'll ridicule. So, the only person that has anything to "lose" in a personal dialogue is me.

That's "personal dialogue", Bill----Maybe I'm not audience-driven. Just say no. My feelings aren't hurt.

What?

No scientific argument on a scientific paper you could not have yet read all of anyway?

Just prurient interest in male sex?

And a lame reference to dating you don't find in My Book?

Color Me not at all surprised coming from most people.

From you, particularly, I expected better, my dear tuber.

"As far as Romney goes, I'll throw him a vote if he ever manages to find those golden plates"

Ever see the South Park episode on mormons?

"Dum dum dum dum dum"

Funny stuff.

Be Well.

"And a lame reference to dating you don't find in My Book?"

Yup...who needs dating? If drunken incestuous impregnation of his two daughters was good enough for Bible hero Lot, it's good enough for the rest of us!

"No scientific argument on a scientific paper you could not have yet read all of anyway?"

Copy and Pasting stuff from Wiki and various legitimate bits of data and then intersplicing it with mad bits of biblical commentary does not a scientific argument make.

Spud read enuff to figure out the basic premise was absurd.

In short, Spud read MORE than enuff of it.

Thank Ya very much.

"My Book"?
"Color me suprised"?

Actually Spud is the suprised one.

Never knew it were a "Coloring Book".

Is coloring outside the lines just a venial sin or is it a mortal one?

Spud seeks instruction here.

Be Well.

"Yup...who needs dating? If drunken incestuous impregnation of his two daughters was good enough for Bible hero Lot, it's good enough for the rest of us!"

Yup, Lot was a jerk.

His daughters were sluts.

His wife was the only one of them, really, who was worth her salt.

A real pillar of the community that one.

Be Well.

Atheists worried about sin?
I never worry about it, why do you?

DNA sequencing follows certain rules. Science is like that.

The author expressed his thesis within those rules, or he did not.

But, if you have no rebuttal other than smarmy dismissal, you have no rebuttal.

"Ah, Bill----And you are afraid of what, exactly? "

Ah, Zed, you're the one proposing to "dialogue" by email, not me. And, no, I'm not going to ridicule your beliefs. I'm not into Christian bashing. Live and let live. I really don't do many religious debates anymore, since no side is going to persuade the other.

My Book contains real people in real situations with real human frailties.

Had the authors covered those up, then you might sound as if you had a point instead of as if you are just whining.

"From you, particularly, I expected better, my dear tuber."

What...you're not omniscient?!?

"My Book contains real people in real situations"

Then why haven't we ever been able to find a single remnant to prove Moses even existed? Why didn't the Jews leave any trace over 40 years, despite the fact history has shown us again and again groups in one place for 40 minutes will leave telltale signs. And why do the Egyptians, who recorded everything down to the number of bushels of wheat harvested, have no record of an entire generation of first-born male children dying on one fateful night?

I let you find a little at a time.

Biblical archaeologists have recent good evidence that King David existed. They have found both Goliath's village, and a cup shard with his name on it.

There are partial verses from Matthew and and Luke that are now dated prior to 70 CE.

Archao-genetics is proving out the promises I made to Abraham.

I know, you want it all on youtube.

Bill, if you won't pay a quarter to see the monkey then I'll wait until primates are a bit more interesting to you.

"But, if you have no rebuttal other than smarmy dismissal, you have no rebuttal."

Sorry thought Spud made that obvious.

You cannot arrive at todays population from a base of 8 guys and a dozen or so ladies in 6,000 years.

The numbers don't add up.

"Atheists worried about sin?
I never worry about it, why do you?"

Spud wouldn't worry so much if there wasn't so gosh darned much of it.

Besides what does a perfect being have to ever worry about anyways?

Immortal, omnipotent, omniscient?

Sounds like a sweet gig.

By definition God is without sin.

Auto default setting is always on good.

Begging the question ...if God is good and can only do good and not evil then does God actually have Free Will?

Spud always wondered.

Be Well.

Why is there no evidence that two planes crashed into the World Trade Center some 20 plus years ago? Asked Danforth on 9/11/2022 It just didn't occur or it would be on CNN or I would remember.

As for you, danforth---The Egyptinas were as notorious for systematically eradicating historical records as they were creating them. If not, dynastic succession and other issues would be a lot clearer. Things I suspect you know.

As for proof Hebrews of that time, consult the Myceneans.

"I let you find a little at a time."

Yet despite all the looking, not a shred for Moses. Not a cup, not a shard, nothing. Admit it, big fella: he's just a figment of the writers' imaginations, right?

Bigramig,

You're the one claiming Moses existed; the burden of proof is on you, Bunky.

"The Egyptinas were as notorious for systematically eradicating historical records as they were creating them."

Yet no tales...in historical accounts or fokelore. No records of locusts, unhealable boils, or a river of blood, nothing. You'd think the slaughter of an entire generation of first-born male children would at least rate a mention.

6000 years is a number some bible-thumper pulled out of his ass a century ago.

It is inarguably inane, much like most of what atheists believe because some stupid "Christians" told them it was true.

Since no one can divert My will, it is free.

But you, and every other man on earth has a mostly common sense of good and evil.

You can even prove that scientifically.

You also have free will to do good or evil.

But if you read the Book, you would know that you live in a world currently controlled by a rebel who cares not about your existence.

His time is set and will come.

God out.

"Bill, if you won't pay a quarter to see the monkey then I'll wait until primates are a bit more interesting to you."

I have no idea what that means, Zed. I suspect you have had a personal experience that leads to your beliefs. That's fine. More power to you. But telling me of that experience isn't going to change my mind. What would change my mind would be if I had a similar, revelatory experience.

"My Book contains real people in real situations with real human frailties"

Are you describing the bible or the new Fall line up from the networks?

Spud never disputed that a lot of the folk in the Bible actually existed. Now whether or not their stories were embellished or in many cases made up is an individual call but Jesus was real, Pilate was real, David was real, Saul was real and so on and so forth.

The amounts of time, money and attention paid on using science to prove historical authenticity on biblical references is quite staggering. How many attempts to find "the Ark". The only "evidence of God" offered in the bible is the tablets that Moses brought down carved with God's own hand he sed.

They were broken and then allegedly ended up in the Ark of the covenant and now nobody knows where they are.

Much like Smith's "golden plates" mentioned earlier.

The evidence is gone.

Archaeological evidence of a great flood is speculative at best.

Human Life began in Africa not the ME.

The greatest early human cultures began in Mesopotamia and China over 6,000 years ago.

The land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers were the origins of the Eden myth.

It used to be a lot greener ya know.

It used to be equated to "Heaven on Earth".

Now it's closer to "Hell on Earth".

But it still has a green zone.

But Spud is digress again.

Bad Spud!

To re-cap...

Noah and the Flood was a myth.

We are not all descended from the same eight guys 6,000 years ago.

Be Well.

"But if you read the Book, you would know that you live in a world currently controlled by a rebel who cares not about your existence."

Hell, ya just gotta read the papers fer THAT!

We know already.

His name is George.

He is the anti-Christ.

His reign will only last seven years according to most of the books.

How long has he been in power now?

"His time is set and will come"

Game, Set and Match?

Be Well.

If I had wanted, I could have told the Biblical writers that I pulled the earth out of Anna Nicole's butt.

And I could have said that if you could burp "The Star Spangled Banner", no beer, you could go to Heaven.

But that, like other things you can't seem to imagine, would be a freaking miracle, huh?

And since we all know that even if there were a God, He couldn't do miracles, like create the earth and populate it any way He damn well pleased, then you must be correct.

God really out now.

"But telling me of that experience isn't going to change my mind...."

Far be it that there be anything that changed your mind, Bob. A veritable rock, you are.

But, to be a bit kinder, if you sincerely ask for a "revelatory experience", there might be something out there for you.

It's all a question of paying that quarter.

"Far be it that there be anything that changed your mind, Bob. A veritable rock, you are."

Please don't confuse me with BuffaloBob, Zed. I don't engage in that kind of harsh Christian bashing anymore.

"A veritable rock, you are."

The point is, Zed, is that it's unreasonable to expect your individual, personal experience to persuade someone else who hasn't had that experience.