They call him flipper.....

I really wish this wasn't an issue. I'm already sick of hearing about it. Roe v. Wade has been around for over 30 years. Can the right PLEASE find another wedge issue?

I don't understand why he feels the need to suddenly lie and act as though he is against abortion. His liberal stance on the issue made him one of the only electable Republican candidates since most of the nation is sick of the type of Republicans running the place now. Trying to appeal to social conservatives to win the primary is only going to make him out to be a liar, as we're seeing here.

""I don't understand why he feels the need to suddenly lie""

It is going to be a very nuanced lie so that the religious right will support him for the nomination and then he can switch positions again for the election.
Hey, I just changed my mind....again.
It seems to be popular within the Republican Party to change your position on abortion, gay marriage, etc. depending on who the electorate is.
When it is Mass. or NYC you have one set of morals, when it is Red State party hacks it is another.

OBI Giuliani!

Where's Rob when you need to smack him upside the head with something?

Do not pay attention to what he does!!! He would have you believe he is the new decider in waiting

Like I said Danni, I understand that that's why, but I think this makes him look worse. People would rather vote for someone with principles (maybe even the wrong ones) than someone who can't stick to one position on an issue. Just look at 2004 for an example.

Danni, I understand that that's why, but I think this makes him look worse.


I agree completely, Joe.

He'll end up looking like Kerry in '04, or Hillary currently. Hell, look what happened to McCain - he's trying to be all things to all people and his campaign is over before it really began.

Hahahahaha...wow, that's too bad. Bye, Rudy.

Gimme an O!

I don't understand why he feels the need to suddenly lie and act as though he is against abortion....

Because you have to march in lockstep with the fundamentalists in the Republican party or you do not get elected as president. got it?

""He'll end up looking like Kerry in '04,""

Still pretending not to understand why Kerry changed his position on the War Authorization Bill??? Still???
Because of the tax cuts for the rich.
That talking point has been debunked, time for new ones.

If you really wanted to make an analogy a better one, and more accurate one would be Bush I changing HIS position on abortion when he became Reagan's VP nominee. He was pro-choice til then.
So much for Republicans who hold strong opinions about divisive issues. They will always be on which ever side they think helps their election chances and they really have no intention of really ever outlawing abortion. It's too valuable of an issue for them, fact lately it's about all they got.

Danni,


Still pretending not to understand why Kerry changed his position on the War Authorization Bill???


You are such a hack sometimes.

I understand perfectly well why he flopped on that one and I actually have vocalized support for that decision numerous times on this blog. In fact, a few months ago you asked me if I knew why he voted for it, before he voted against it. That specific instance wasn't what I was talking about. Generally speaking, Kerry was all over the place - he stood for everything and at the same time he stood for nothing.


I don't deny the dirty politicking of the Republicans. Yet you get your dander up at virtually ANY criticism of your beloved Democrat leaders, regardless of how spot-on said criticism is.

Kerry was a great example because of all of the similarities - he tried to be everything and he lost. If Guiliani is attempting the same strategy, he'll likely garner similar results. I think this tack is a considerable factor in Hillary's implosion. And I obviously think it has sunk McCain, who is a Republican.

"Because you have to march in lockstep with the fundamentalists in the Republican party or you do not get elected as president. got it?"

And like I said, America is tired of fundamentalist republicans. The only republican who has a shot of winning a national election is one who is liberal on at least some issues, and probably issues like this one. If the candidates and fundamentalists in the party don't realize that, they should be prepared to lose by a huge margin in '08.

JEFF
""I think this tack is a considerable factor in Hillary's implosion.""

What implosion?? She is still the leading Democrat and is gaining percentage points over Obama. She is the "moderate" and that is why she is not my first choice but I would still support her over any of the Republicans.

Joe, absolutely correct. The tired old wedge issues that worked in '04 will drive moderates away in droves come '08.

Can the right PLEASE find another wedge issue?

Posted by ness_gadol at 2007-05-08 01:22 PM | Reply

It is the LEFT that continues to attempt to make abortion into a wedge issue. Those of us with a conscience (Conservatives) understand the distinction between personal and political stances. Rudy has stated that he will appoint pro-life judges.

Abortion has devolved to a state issue, as it should.

george soros is the most feared man in the world and is undoubtably controlling what Giuliani is saying.

Nice post, CC. Where the hell have you been up to now? As a local ACLU chapter leader, let me point out that we defend not the Klan, not the Nazis, not Rush's - er - medications, but the Bill of Rights. ACLU, Planned Parenthood, and maybe Americans United for Separation of Church and State, work for a better world. How many other groups can really say that? herm

OBI Giuliani has made it very clear, in his own words, that he was for abortion before he was against it.

CC makes an interesting point above, however it does not explain the many conflicting public statements that OBI Giuliani has made on the issue.

Gimme a B!

As a local ACLU chapter leader, let me point out that we defend not the Klan, not the Nazis, not Rush's - er - medications, but the Bill of Rights.

Hence why are you labled "Far Left" Herm.

This is one of the reasons why I don't like politics. Aides to a rival campaign supplying dirt to the media. I have seen this at the local level in a small town where a wannbe mayor supplied negative press to the media, and it got published. He later then got elected as mayor but was recalled two years in his term for an outside incident of the past before he was elected.

Giuliani is the main focus because he is leading in the polls against Dems. So the emphasis on his abortion stance is critical for the Dems. His abortion stance doesn't bother me in the political realm as long as he doesn't appoint pro-abortion judges or sign in laws that enhance abortion on demand.

ManyPaths -- supporting the Bill of Rights is not where the ACLU's "far left" tag originates. It's more about the extent to which the ACLU *interprets* the Bill of Rights that creates the "far left" tag. ACLU has done some things I support and other things I do not support. In those instances that I don't support I think the ACLU tries to leverage judicial fiat to pass national laws WITHOUT leaving it to the people when, in my interprertation, no Constitutional basis lies other than from the PEOPLE. Of course, judicial fiat can be a desired result when in the Consititution (e.g., desegregation from the 14th Amendment). Other times, when arguably not within the Constitution, it is viewed as far too reaching (e.g., reading abortion rights into the Right to Privacy).

But I admit the ACLU accomplishes a lot of good and it fights, in many cases, the good fight. It would be a shame to not have organizations fighting for the Constitution EVEN IF we don't necessarily agree on what all those Constitutional rights are.

Danni,

What implosion?? She is still the leading Democrat and is gaining percentage points over Obama. She is the "moderate" and that is why she is not my first choice but I would still support her over any of the Republicans.


6 months ago she was the heir apparent, no questions asked. Now she is involved in a tight race. I think her trying to be all things was a contributing factor.

""I think her trying to be all things was a contributing factor.""

I think the emergence of Obama was more of one. Remember, he didn't even know if he war running??? Only two years in the Senate. She was surprised I think, Edwards was too.

Danni,

Agreed regarding Obama.


Hillary's biggest problems are yet to come - getting in front of the camera on a frequent basis. I have no doubt she's working very hard on her camera presence. Nevertheless, I don't think she can pull it off, she's too stiff and too shrill.

Actually, I think she's the best candidate from the point-of-view of a Republican - she's the one that Reps should be rooting for because she gives the Republicans the best chance of winning.

BTW - I think Rudy is the GOP's ONLY chance at the Whitehouse. I know we are still a long way off but mark my words, if anyone other than Rudy gets the GOP nod, the Dems take the WH in '08.

...I have seen this at the local level in a small town where a wannbe mayor supplied negative press to the media

MIKEWARRIOR

Karl Rove took this to the extreme in Texas, where he'd have his FBI field office head buddy announce a Dem candidate was 'under investigation' 2 weeks before an election. None of these 'investigations' ever led to charges.

Of course, we know now he tried to take this nationally using the Justice Dept.

Gimmie an I

"BTW - I think Rudy is the GOP's ONLY chance at the Whitehouse. I know we are still a long way off but mark my words, if anyone other than Rudy gets the GOP nod, the Dems take the WH in '08."

I disagree. The Republican's best candidate is Fred Thompson, if he chooses to run. He's right out of central casting.

I just want to reiterate an earlier post that PP is for more than abortions. Many women go there for a whole range of affordable gynecological exams/procedures, as well as education and birth control.

Being against PP is essentially being against basic gynecological care and affordable birth control for those w/out insurance. I'm sure there's nothing like having a protester call you a whore or killer just because you need a pap smear or a refill of the pill.

BillO,


I've seen Fred garner excitement, but do you think he can attract the moderate vote?

"I'm pro-choice. I'm pro-gay rights," Giuliani said. He was then asked whether he supports a ban on what critics call partial-birth abortions. "No, I have not supported that, and I don't see my position on that changing," he responded.
Source: CNN.com, "Inside Politics" Dec 2, 1999

Spin it all you want. Rudy gave money because he supported a woman's right to have an abortion. PERIOD

Support the lying jackass all that you want.

BillO,

One thing is for pretty much certain, I think the Republican party loses more seats in Congress in '08.


The Republican party is in absolute shambles right now.

The Republican party is in absolute shambles right now.

Why do you think that is Jeff?

"I've seen Fred garner excitement, but do you think he can attract the moderate vote?"

Unless he has some skeletons in his closet, yes.

Well, the last 6 years is largely the culprit, Many.


In addition to enraging the Left, they've largely alientated their own base with corruption, ineptitude, lack of leadership and wanton-liberalesque spending.

BillO,


I know you disagree with his politics, but how do you feel about Thompson in regards to personality and integrity?

He seems OK. He certainly would be a huge improvement over the Chimp. :)

He certainly would be a huge improvement over the Chimp


Hey, set the bar low enough and anyone can look good.

Your buddy Pinche Mao is pretty high on him.

Thompson is to Mao as Obama is to TonyRoma.

"I'm pro-choice. I'm pro-gay rights," Giuliani said. He was then asked whether he supports a ban on what critics call partial-birth abortions. "No, I have not supported that, and I don't see my position on that changing," he responded.
Source: CNN.com, "Inside Politics" Dec 2, 1999

Spin it all you want. Rudy gave money because he supported a woman's right to have an abortion. PERIOD

Support the lying jackass all that you want.

Posted by MANYPATHS

Flip-flopping is such a common subject in politics today. It will be even more so as technology advances leaving electronic trails of everything we do and say. To me, the argument of "he's a flip-flopper" is valid only in certain contexts. The distinguishing factor seems to be that some beliefs are fact based and others are more faith-based. For example, Democrats arguing from '90s to '03s that Saddam had WMDs is fact based. To subsequently turn around and say, "we knew there were no WMDs" is disingenuous and a fact-based flip-flop. On the other hand, being a born-again Christian is not necessairly disingenuous because, after all, many faith-based beliefs change with time for a variety of reasons, none of which necessarily have to do with something known to be a "fact".

To at some point have had a pro-choice view and subsequently have a different view may be a "flip flop", but it does not have the requisite negative conotation that a fact-based flip flop would have.

After all, does anyone really call the "Jane Roe" a flip-flopper because she's now pro-life? Of course not.

I don't consider OBI Giuliani a flip-flopper CC.

He is a panderer and liar. No wonder he leads the GOP race.

Don't take that wrong.

What is "OBI" for?? I can't figure it out. =)

Setting aside whether he is a panderer and a liar (it seems we have to do that with all politicans anyway), do you think he'd be a good middle-of-the-road candidate??

"Your buddy Pinche Mao is pretty high on him."

Pinche's a smart guy. And clean, too. :)

Out

Before

Iowa

Rob really likes that name.....

do you think he'd be a good middle-of-the-road candidate??

Ask a member of the NYFD. He or she will be able to answer that one for me.

Thin skinned with way too many skeletons in the closet. So, it's OBI Giuliani!

It seems to be popular within the Republican Party to change your position on abortion, gay marriage, etc. depending on who the electorate is.
Posted by danni at 2007-05-08 01:30 PM | Reply

Are you paying attention? Republicans don't hold anything compared to Democrats who switched from pro-life to pro-abortion/pro-choice--Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Dick Gephardt. Jesse Jackson, Joe Biden, Dennis Kucinich, Tom Harkin...

Roe v. Wade was the right decision
Everyone knows life begins biologically at conception. No one knows when biology turns into humanity. Most abortions that don't involve the life or health of the mother are chosen by scared young women and girls who don't know what else to do. It's hard to apply the criminal law to acts that a substantial portion of the citizenry doesn't believe should be labeled crimes, (as with Prohibition). I thought then [in the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision] and still believe that the Court reached the right conclusion
Source: My Life, by Bill Clinton, p.229 Jun 21, 2004

Let women decide with their doctor and their God
Americans believe deeply in the need to keep government out of private, personal matters. That is one reason why I am pro-choice. I believe we should all work to reduce the number of abortions. That is why I have worked to reduce teen pregnancy, remove barriers to cross-racial adoption, and provide tax credits to families willing to adopt. Still, I believe the ultimate choice should remain a matter for a woman to decide in consultation with her conscience, her doctor, and her God.
Source: Between Hope and History, by Bill Clinton, p.137 Jan 1, 1996

Just your daily reminder that Kirk is full of shit.....

and on a funnier note:

Whitehouse aide to Clinton: "What are we gonna do about the new
abortion bill, Mr. President?"

Clinton's reply : "Shhhhh - just pay it."

And like I said, America is tired of fundamentalist republicans. The only republican who has a shot of winning a national election is one who is liberal on at least some issues, and probably issues like this one. If the candidates and fundamentalists in the party don't realize that, they should be prepared to lose by a huge margin in '08.

Posted by JOE at 2007-05-08 01:48 PM | Reply

Wanna put $ 5 on that?
(provided Republicans can come up with someone who meets Christian conservative criterion)

MY GOD! How could he do that? He can be giving his money away like that. He should give it all to uncle wiskers and let the government dole it back out.

I provide quotes out of the horses mouth and you give us a link to a Conservative Political Writer's article? Surely you can back it up with more proof than that....

It is no wonder that you are so easily fooled Kirk. You're a tool.

You might want to take those lies, write them down and sit on them end up. Might feel better than having them shoved down your throat.

Don't forget this "prochoice" classic:

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."
Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race
(Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)

manypaths,

you are so full of it
seriously, LOOK IT UP.
Clinton WAS prolife, a fact that's been reported far and wide.

It's been on Meet the press, it's all over encyclopedias, it's in every public library, it's even on this new fangled thing called the "intranet"(in W speak).

Sorry. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Do you have a college degree? It's a great thing, because there you can learn critical thinking skills which really come in handy.

Keep on worshipping that idol you have of Clinton in ignorance and don't bother looking it up.

Kirk-

Wanna put $ 5 on that?
(provided Republicans can come up with someone who meets Christian conservative criterion)

Yes, provided that you understand my point. My point is that the only Republican with a shot of winning a national election, (not the primary), is one who is at least somewhat liberal on social issues.

Therefore your side of the bet is that "a republican who is socially conservative will win the 2008 election."

If that's the bet you want to take, consider this a virtual handshake. When you lose in 2008 email me and you can send my cash in a greeting card.

Link Kirk, with a quote from Bill Clinton NOT Fred Barnes.

Prove that you are not full of shit. I have proven that you are.

Here's further proof:

I think there are too many abortions in America. I think there should be much more adoption in America. But I do not believe that it is self evident from the Bible that all abortions are murder. (President Bill Clinton, ABC Interview by Peggy Wehmeyer, "American Agenda", March 22, 1994.)

Just when was Clinton a confused Pro-Lifer?

Gotcha Joe

Will do

We can define "a republican who is socially conservative" as the days and months go by, but rest assured, I won't be a weasel with the definition.

I'm not sure the Republicans are going to come up with a "social conservative" yet, but I guess we'll see.

I guess Romney would fit the bill, but I don't believe him any further than I can throw him ("and you really shouldn't be throwing anyone with your bad back, Ed" --Ferris Bueller's Day Off).

$5 to you - a social conservative Republican WON'T win the national election

$5 to me - a social conservative Republican WILL win the national election

stalemate - a social conservative doesn't make it to the national election

Kirk-

I didn't say a socially liberal Republican will win. I only said that's the only type with a chance of winning. For the purposes of the bet I will take that position though, since I still think the worst I'd wind up with is a stalemate.

Interesting Republicans want to suggest that some movement like MoveOn.org is controlling the Democratic party and setting the agenda. The fact that Rudy even has to weasel around this states that some organization (Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, Swiftvets) are controlling their agenda. If they don't sing from the same page then you're doomed! Such a joke.

It's soooo early. And there is more mud to throw--at Rudy and everyone else for that matter.

Rudy is pro choice and so is Bill--Hillary believes in killing the baby just a breath away from outside the birth canal.

Rudy seems to explain he believes this is a States issue to decide--some for and some against abortion. I go along with that--have to start somewhere and steps towards getting this infantcide abolished.

What did he and his first wife donate over 6 years?? Like $900---that pays for one abortion or like 4 tubal ligations--or free birth control pills for several women for a year.

I personally loathe Planned Parenthood--it was founded on eliminating black folks.

Abortion is not the only issue for the Dobson folks--but it is important. We'll have to see.

Where is a third party candidate when we need one?

Murphy

Hillary believes in killing the baby just a breath away from outside the birth canal.

IF the mother's life is in danger.

You idiots talk like we're all pro-abortion. You couldn't be more wrong. We're for letting a woman make her own choices.

CNN update:
Mitt's wife gave money to them also.

Because "choice" is such a core issue for most democrats...they automatically believe it is the core issue for the GOP.

While the Democrats would never support a pro-life candidate, the GOP is far less intolerant -- and a pro-choice candidate is a real possibility.

As a pro-choice Republican for 20 years, I certainly don't feel left out of my party or that I ma even in the minority view on abortion -- that it should be left up to the states, and should be legal in the first trimester, with parental/spousal notification.

I think by the time the primaries come along, everyone in the US will know that Rudy is pro-choice.

frankly, I don't think my party is really going to care. Rudy is strong on defense, strong on fighting terrorism, strong on lowering taxes and most of all has a proven track record of beating the crap out of democrats in their own backyard.

"Because "choice" is such a core issue..."

Hey, BowWow: I am still waiting on that post you claimed I made: