Anyone read "Atlas Shrugged" lately? It's being made into a movie, I hear. Timely.

Yes Rand is timeless. From Atlas Shrugged:

"You did not care to compete in terms of intelligence--you are now competing in terms of brutality. You did not care to allow rewards to be won by successful production--you are now running a race in which rewards are won by successful plunder.
You called it selfish and cruel that men should trade value for value--you have now established an unselfish society where they trade extortion for extortion. Your system is a legal civil war, where men gang up on one another and struggle for possession of the law, which they use as a club over rivals, till another gang wrests it from their clutch and clubs them with it in their turn, all of them clamoring protestations of service to an unnamed public's unspecified good.
You had said that you saw no difference between economic and political power, between the power of money and the power of guns--no difference between reward and punishment, no difference between purchase and plunder, no difference between pleasure and fear, no difference between life and death. You are learning the difference now."

"Yes Rand is timeless..."

Yes. There will always be ones to rationalize, or even applaud, naked greed and selfishness.

Go fuck yourself Reilly. You must be monitoring the site looking for something that offends your socialist ideology. All you know is plunder.

The Nation Review, not a liberal/socialist/Marxist publication, but the most prominent conservative journal in the U.S., said it best about Atlas Shrugged:

Something of this implication is fixed in the book's dictatorial tone, which is much its most striking feature. Out of a lifetime of reading, I can recall no other book in which a tone of overriding arrogance was so implacably sustained. Its shrillness is without reprieve. Its dogmatism is without appeal. In addition, the mind which finds this tone natural to it shares other characteristics of its type. 1) It consistently mistakes raw force for strength, and the rawer the force, the more reverent the posture of the mind before it. 2) It supposes itself to be the bringer of a final revelation. Therefore, resistance to the Message cannot be tolerated because disagreement can never be merely honest, prudent, or just humanly fallible. Dissent from revelation so final (because, the author would say, so reasonable) can only be willfully wicked. There are ways of dealing with such wickedness, and, in fact, right reason itself enjoins them. From almost any page of Atlas Shrugged, a voice can be heard, from painful necessity, commanding: "To a gas chamber -- go!"

"Go fuck yourself Reilly"

Hahahahaha. Ayn "Big business is America's oppressed minority" Rand, was the princess of plunder.

The National Review is occupied by big government statists. Of course they hate her.

Ayn "Big business is America's oppressed minority" Rand, was the princess of plunder.

She was critical of any form of plunder.

""Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion--when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing--when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors--when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you--when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice--you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot."

"The National Review is occupied by big government statists. Of course they hate her."

They're socialists! LOL.

Atlas Shrugged is a book for adolescents, with their "me me me" mentality. It's a hysterical, totalitarian screed.

"She was critical of any form of plunder."

Unless it's done by big business, that poor oppressed minority.

Statism comes in all forms.

"the doctrine or practice of vesting economic control, economic planning, etc. in a centralized state government"

I used to regard myself as a conservative until I realized they were frauds. They only give the doctrine of small government lip service.

Unless it's done by big business, that poor oppressed minority.


Oh bullshit! Two quotes I quoted say the opposite. Address the quotes and tell me where you disagree.

Rand's thought is directed not against collectivism, but against all human community. The most elegant statement of her philosophy is contained in a speech -- a tirade, to be precise -- by John Galt, the hero of "Atlas Shrugged," who calls his fellow humans "moral cannibals" and invites them to "perish with and in your own void." Rand would have you value only "travelers you choose to share your journey, [who] must be travelers going on their own power to the same destination." This rules out such things as caring for children, for an aging parent or for the unfortunate in general. But then, such things are of small concern to adolescents.

"Money is the barometer of a society's virtue"

What awful rubbish. It's depressing that anyone could take such a hack seriously.

That's a hack job. I have her writings on disc and "moral cannibals" doesn't come up in a search. "perish" comes up once unrelated. Same with "travelers, cannibals and cannibal"


Rand's thought is directed not against collectivism, but against all human community.

Statists like the flowery term for the same thing.

If money is not the barometer of virtue, then it must be a virtue to be poor. Jesus would agree.

Give it up Reilly. I can quote Rand for her moral insights without being cultist about it.

You've been sidestepping the two previous quotes.

"Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead."

Cult of Selfishness: Most disturbing is Rand's disdain for altruism. To Ayn, altruism is evil incarnate. Her hatred of weakness is a libertarianism gone bad, a naked selfishness that may work if you're a have, but will not if you are a have-not. Commentators have made much of the hypocrisy of a woman who owed her life to the altruism of others in effecting her escape from the Soviet Union, disavowing the kindness of strangers when she no longer needed it. It seems that there is something within Ayn Rand which could not tolerate weakness in others, and herself. This something leveraged itself into a broader economic nihilism that only recognized the self interest of the individual. It is difficult to imagine with any desire a Randian world of greed and insularity, a world without charity and lacking in compassion. It is clear why so many high school and college kids have a fling with Randism. In the most selfish period of one's life, what is more natural than exploring a "philosophical" system built around selfishness?

My gosh Reilly. This government is a cesspool of corruption, mass murder, plunder and killing our economy and you are still obsessed with smearing Rand. She had you socialists nailed to the wall.

"In the field of politics, this leads the more aggressive type of appeasers, the "liberals," to the belief in rule by physical force, to the doctrine that people are unfit for freedom and should be ruled-"for their own good"--by a dictatorship of the "elite." Hence such "liberals' " craving for governmental recognition, and their extreme susceptibility to bribes by any strong-arm government, foreign or domestic, in the form of minor jobs, loud titles, official honors or simply dinner invitations."

"You've been sidestepping the two previous quotes."

Nothing to refute. They are nonsense. "Money is the barometer of society's virtue"? What can be said of such lunacy?

A far better barometer of society's virtue is the way it treats its old, its poor, its disabled. But Ayn Rand doesn't care about anybody except her "supermen".

There must be a flaw in the search engine.

Well now that you found the full quote I would to agree that you do fit the description of a moral cannibal.

Nothing to refute.

You cherry picked and you are flat wrong about money not being a virtue of society's virtue. Socialism has no means of creating wealth, only of distributing it. That's what's making us poorer.

A far better barometer of society's virtue is the way it treats its old, its poor, its disabled.

SS and Medicare are in hock to $50 trillion. What are you going to say when the old and poor are left with nothing?

Inflation has impoverished retirees and you still defend the Federal Reserve.

Really Reilly. I can pick your contradictions apart as easily as I do against Christians. Your world doesn't exist.

"There must be a flaw in the search engine."

Evidently.

"Well now that you found the full quote I would to agree that you do fit the description of a moral cannibal."

Uh huh. I would reserve that for "America's oppressed minority" whose greed knows no bounds.

"Really Reilly. I can pick your contradictions apart as easily as I do against Christians. Your world doesn't exist."

When do actually that, let me know. Your only argument so far is to call me a socialist.

I got this program recently. Found out what I was doing wrong.

What could be more greedy than the alliance between major corporations and government? An inquiring mind would like to know.

When do actually that, let me know.

I just did at 4:40. Like many facts I throw at you, they go over your head.

"The activists of the New Left are closer to revealing the truth of their motives: they do not seek to take over industrial plants, they seek to destroy technology."

That would explain why jobs are leaving this country.

"Without opposition, the hoodlums of the New Left are crawling from under the intellectual wreckage. Theirs is the Anti-Industrial Revolution, the revolt of the primordial brute--no, not against capitalism, but against capitalism's roots--against reason, progress, technology, achievement, reality."

"I just did at 4:40"

You didn't do anything of the sort. You didn't address Rand's glorification of greed and tears for the "oppressed minority". All you did was repeat your tired old talking points about SS and Medicare. If those programs encounter trouble because of the insatiable greed of the rich, who want to privatize programs they don't need, it doesn't support your argument at all. Try again.

"That would explain why jobs are leaving this country."

LOL. You're nuts. You blame the non-existent "new left" for jobs leaving the country??? That's preposterous. Jobs are leaving because capital always seeks the lowest possible labor costs.

Try again? Why bother. Your socialist welfare Ponzi Schemes are going bankrupt and all you do is pretend it doesn't exist.

Jobs are leaving because capital always seeks the lowest possible labor costs.

That's how capitalism works.

"Like many facts I throw at you, they go over your head."

You wouldn't know a fact if it body slammed you into the ground, Ray. You're an ideologist, with fantastic theories that have no basis in current or historical reality.

Jobs are leaving because capital always seeks the lowest possible labor costs

"That's how capitalism works."

Just a minute ago you were blaming it on the "New Left". Make up your mind. Is that how capitalism works, or is the "new left" to blame?

Sure sure sure. If we were in the bottom of the depression I foresee, you still wouldn't admit I was right - you'll alway have the corporations alone as your scapegoat. Then you'll be looking for a presidential Moses to lead us out of the wilderness. That should keep the depression going for another ten years.

Hey, you 2 are having a really civil debate today...congratulations!


"We can change the future through an understanding & reconciliation of the past."


:>)

Blame? I'm not blaming capitalism. I'm telling you that's how it works. The Luddites were famous for destroying machines because they took away jobs. But thanks to machines, we went from an agrarian economy to a manufacturing economy to a service economy. Corporations are reacting to economic pressure. That's how it works.

No, you're blame the "New Left". Oh wait, you're saying that's "how capitalism works".

"If we were in the bottom of the depression I foresee, you still wouldn't admit I was right "

I would say that's the inevitable consequence of capital excesses. We've seen it before. The boom of the 1920's followed by the depression. The stock market bubble of the 90's followed by a collapse. We may be seeing it again in the housing market. Time after time, greed runs rampant and overreaches. But people like you never learn from history.

Mises described how business cycles worked before you and I were born. I've tried to explain it to you but it's impossible because it doesn't meet your standard of ideological purity. Greed is as intrinsic to human nature as fear. You might as well blame the moon.

"My gosh Reilly. This government is a cesspool of corruption, mass murder, plunder and killing our economy and you are still obsessed with smearing Rand. "

And no comment on the insatiable greed of multinational corporations who are the ones that are really killing our economy. You're just a corporate hack, Ray, who looks for scapegoats. The "new left" today, the federal reserve tomorrow, big government the next day.

"I've tried to explain it to you but it's impossible because it doesn't meet your standard of ideological purity. "

That's funny, Ray. You're the ideological purist, with your Randian/Misesian theories that have no relation to the real world.

"Greed is as intrinsic to human nature as fear"

And so is altruism. But there's no place in your ideology for that.

I'm not denying the "insatiable greed of multinational corporations." I've said so several times before. More specifically, the problem that befalls is not greed per se; it's corruption motivated by greed.

Now when are you going to admit that our political system is terribly corrupt? When are you going to admit that at the heart of our corrupt political system is the cronyism between corporate heads and the politicians?

"I'm not denying the "insatiable greed of multinational corporations."

Excellent. Now we have a start.

"Now when are you going to admit that our political system is terribly corrupt?"

I admit it. I've never denied it. The political system is owned by the rich and powerful. What we have is what I call, state capitalism, or crony capitalism, if you will.

True. I have to be forced to give away what I earn to strangers. I have no issue with charity when it's a personal decision.

If you think about it, Christianity celebrates altruism, the sacrifice of one man for the multitude. Rand equated it to slavery and I think that is about right. Politicians like altruism because it enhances their power.

The political system is owned by the rich and powerful.

That's another start.

You're the ideological purist, with your Randian/Misesian theories that have no relation to the real world.

But they do. I would be an ideological purist if I expected people to behave according the highest standard of their theories. I don't. Human nature doesn't work that way.

What I do do is use their theories as a standard of comparison. In any rational logic system, you need a frame of reference from which to observe. In science it's called a paradigm.

"Human nature doesn't work that way. "

The idea that humans are rational, self-interested beings only intent on pursuing their own self interest is a myth. Game theory has shown just the opposite. The whole myth of rational, self-interest maximizing behavior,on the part of people, which your economics depend on, has been disproven.

No no. You miss the point. I agree with game theory. I'm applying an artificial standard. In science, forces are uniform. Not so for human nature - individuals are each unique. There is no other way to do it.

Then you agree that the model which you are operating from, that humans are rational, self-interested individuals which will always pursue their narrow economic interests, to the exclusion of all other interests, is flawed?

I'm not sure how you are using "flawed." It's flawed in the sense that it in itself does not explain human behavior. It's a valid standard of comparison for observing people in action.

In the perfect standard, there is complete social harmony. It's antithesis is a society where acts of aggression are running rampant, robbery, murder and so on.

Language has a structure such that words take on meaning relative to other worlds. "Child' means nothing without "parent." "Lie" means nothing without "truth," and so on. So we imagine an honest society to get a picture of a dishonest society, a peaceful society to get a picture of a violent society. This goes to the heart of accurate use of language. Scientists are obsessed with it.

MOST CORRUPT ADMINISTRATION EVER

MOST INCOMPETENT ADMINISTRATION EVER

But praise God, none a' them lied about a BJ in the oval office, so their jobs are all safe.

Yeah cause semen stains are very difficult to get out of Carpet.

Larry

Thanks for your usual sex-obsessed pointless comment, Larry.

Ray and Bill, you have an interesting discussion going on. Ray, the Rand quotes you listed above seemed to shine a harsh light on the workings of our current government, e.g., the Bush administration. Almost point for point. A reason for libertarians to frown on these people.

Regarding corporations and their essential nature, I'd encourage both of you to view the excellent 2003 documentary film "The Corporation" (www.thecorporation.com). This would provide a good basis for further discussion along these lines. My take on this: Capitalism is a good design, and corporations are in theory good organizations, but both need to be regulated to keep them from doing harm.

As for human nature, altruism vs. self-interest, I would agree that organizational psychologists have demonstrated interesting results from game theory research. People calculate the line between cooperation and betrayal, but the object of a game, one must remember, is to win--that's a condition of the experiment. Ray, you talk about the relative structure of language and meaning in this regard--no dispute here. Yet you discount Christianity (and one would assume other faiths), which if practiced sincerely must provide the good, self-regulating inner nature that would provide the altruism--not compelled by slavery to man but by obedience to a higher power--that would clearly, if not corrupted, relieve society of so many ills by replacing our dog-eat-dog ways with, well, ideally, love. We have never seen love, yet would we not all attest that it surely exists? If not, all that's left is nihilism and cynicism and no barriers to the dog-eat-dog--there is no price to pay for bad behavior. And I'm not talking about red guys with pitchforks--except perhaps as a metaphor for the breakdown of a loveless--and faithless?--society into chaos and violence, into--well, hell. There's a relative word for you.

Back for a moment to the thread, I agree that any fantasies of the independence of the Gonzales DOJ have been truly shattered. I think the GOP's poll numbers could now be in free-fall for the duration. Court of public opinion.

I remember one time my mom served me bad scallops as a little kid, and I got so sick that I wouldn't touch scallops again until I was in my mid-thirties. I have a feeling it may be the same for much of America now when someone asks them to "vote Republican."

JIMI_LEFT

Great post. Good points.

As a friend of mine used to say, "The only problem with Christianity is that it hasn't been tried yet". The 'New Commandments' were never been added. Yet, Jesus said they were the most important - and His
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40). What a different world it would be.)

There's no substitute for a conscience guided by a moral compass. Alberto Gonzolaz should remember the 9th Commandment Tuesday. Unless he parses it to mean lying against his neighbor only LOL

Gonzales oops

Fully agreed AA. Let's see how Christian, how God-fearing, Alberto really is. What was it in Acts?--something like "You have lied not to men but to God..." and the man and his wife both fell dead and the young men carried them out and buried them.

Alberto, now is the time to tell the truth. In fact, it's time for the whole administration to tell the truth. Will they?

"Regarding corporations and their essential nature, I'd encourage both of you to view the excellent 2003 documentary film "The Corporation" (www.thecorporation.com). "

I've seen that documentary, Jimi. Excellent viewing. Thanks for your comments.

Ya, JIMI, let's see if Gonzales tells the truth.

I meant to say above that Jesus added a 'New Commandment'. The 1st was already among the 10.

If we practiced the '11th Commandment', especially these true blue Bible thumpin' God fearing NeoCons have a glimmer of humanity and selfless interest, and practice Christianity, putting aside all the hellfire and brimstone and voices of God that tell our president to go to war. Oops. I doubt that voice came from the Heaven side of the fence in the great beyond.

especially IF these true blue Bible thumpin'...

You want to talk about incompetent?

How about the fact that the NUMBER 3 person at the Justice Dept is a 34 yo woman who graduated from Pat Robertsons "law school" and has never tried a case.

NUMBER 3!!!!

Anyway, now that her ass is flapping in the breeze and she's trying to stay out of jail, she went out and hired a real lawyer.

Guess which school the lawyer DID NOT graduate from?

That damn Bush!! The head of the DOJ has never been political before. He is screwing up everything that has been done in the past by the dems.

I guess all 93 that Clinton fired when he took office were incompentent. They are political appointements, get over it.

If Karl Rove had gotten his way, the AG's office would have become the 'Political Persecution' office, much as he used an FBI field office head in Texas to smear Dem candidates two weeks before elections with rumor and innuendo of 'investigations'.

That's beyond the scope of hiring and firing USA's from your own party.

The bullshit about Clinton firing all 93 is just that. EVERY single U.S. President has cleaned house when elected. And you know it, but still want to take the shot. Guess you have to live up to your name SNIPER The main problem is your sights are off by a mile. You're looking left when you should be firing right at the misdoings of your own President and his party. Wow, what a patriot you are LOL