After yesterday's raucus discussion about the Imus controversy, I decided to do some research because I kept hearing over and over how black America bore some responsibility for tolerating the language and concepts embodied in the terms used by Imus to describe the Rutgers womens basketball players.

As I listened to the Rev. Sharpton continuously asked why he and other blacks haven't spoken out about misogyny and the degredation of black women throughout certain sectors of popular culture, it became quite clear the difference between those truly interested in fixing a festering problem and those looking to assuage their own culpability in co-opting the worst from a culture based more upon creating profits than it is about prophesy.

If any of those so interested in why they haven't heard the voices of Jackson and Sharpton decry this moral blight on our society it is largely because they themselves haven't been listening or they haven't bothered to avail themselves of the countless times before microphones, from pulpits, and in the print media, that black spokespersons have been loudly opposed to the culture that degrades women, and particularly black women, and it didn't start nor end with Bill Cosby famous rant. Due to the very nature of slavery and its aftermath, the matriarchal role in black America has and continues to be extremely important in the evolution of the black community.

The need to degredate and objectify the role of females is largely in response to the unwillingness or inability of many black men to shoulder their responsibilities as parents and supporters of families, hence the need to attempt to place themselves above the fray, while scapegoating the female's vulnerability as the reason for their selfish, self-serving behaviors.

I posted this in another thread this morning, but in case that thread goes dead, I'm reprising it here (because I'd really like to know the answer):

I saw a clip (on another program) of the film Bernie must have gotten the terms "jigaboos" and "wannabes" from. In it two black girls are arguing in the hallway of a school and one of them says to the other, "You're just some jigaboo wannabe." Anyone know the film? Did it have a black director? Imus said he had just been trying to be "hip" but admits what he said was wrong.

Spike Lee School Daze.

Larry

Thanks Larry, I actually answered it on the other thread as well.

Gal...

The film was Spike Lee's School Daze, and the very purpose of the film was to force black America to deal with its own skin-toned based bias and prejudice. It is no secret that in certain "professional-elite" circles that lighter skin and straighter hair is viewed just like it is by white America. And the darker, "nappy-haired" blacks are viewed quite differently. Spike's message was one of rubbing faces in this hypocrisy in hopes of removing it from the culture, so the use of the same verbage by Bernie makes the insult even more eggregious.

Google Me Friend

Larry

Yonyroma-
Dead on analysis (10:07). You do that a lot, by the way.

LOL..."Tonyroma".

I do that a lot, by the way.

tonyroma
certain things should offend us anytime we here them -no matter who says it -forget about the race of the speaker-remember who you are and how you want to be respected-remember we aint the only ones listenin
jasman

jasman...

I don't disagree with a word you said. I hope we can find agreement on this topic. I got sick and tired of so many trying to imply that nothing is being done in the black community to speak out against the thug mentality as though people like ourselves don't raise our children and grandchildren to love and respect their mothers, sisters, and grandmothers as most people do.

Some outside the black community consistently try to emeliorate their own eggregious conduct by pointing to others outside their own circles to show that they are not alone. To me, this is analogous to blaming Dennis Kozlowski and Ken Lay because I took a $100 from my employer's cash register. Didn't I already know it was wrong to begin with? Don't people such as Imus and others speak constantly about the evils of the hip-hop culture that uses misogyny to market itself across mainstream America, yet they return to, "but they do it too" as a defense?

It sickens me no end because for all the valid reasons that Jackson and Sharpton are villified for appearing whenever opportunity raises its head, no one talks about everything they say and do when the mics aren't on or the cameras are turned off. I have not seen Imus go into the urban schools and tell kids not to follow the gangsta mindset and to use education as the route out of the ghettos, but this is what Jackson, Sharpton and many others do consistently.

If we are to criticize, then we must praise when actions and examples are indeed praiseworthy.

Racism is considered in some quarters as the bogus slogan of so called "race hustlers." So pervasive has this approach and its variants become, that even "centrists" refuse to recognize real and vicious racism when it is staring them in the face--or at the other end of the telephone.

Imus' references to the Rutgers team as "nappy headed hos" is the real thing, pure racism--and Imus, as intelligent as he can be about many things, including the war--is a racist. The past reference to the estimable Gwen Ifill as a "cleaning lady" is an Imus "classic." His producer, Bernard McGuirk, makes clear his distaste for black people with his constant sneers and asides, his ugly sarcasm and his outright viciousness. Racist talk is, in the end, generally the product of racist minds. (And the "everybody does it" whine, even black people, does not make Imus and McGuirk's racism any less immoral.)

While trying to make sense of this incident, here are four points to keep in mind:

1. For some reason, people who make no secret of the fact that they despise Al Sharpton feel that they are doing something meaningful by engaging with him at times of crisis on racial issues. In going to him, they are seeking out someone who they think is disliked by large portions of the white audience, which they think puts them at an advantage. In the long run it doesn't. But instead of this knee jerk move, how about for once agreeing to talk to a professional news person like Tavis Smiley, an exceptional broadcaster, Errol Lewis of the New York Daily News, a terrific writer and broadcaster, the under appreciated Bob Herbert of the New York Times, or for that matter, Clarence Page, who challenged Imus on race many years ago, and was never heard from again on his airwaves. (Tom Oliphant, perhaps Mr. Page was more deserving of your solidarity than Imus is.) The assumption that the only place one has to go to make "media peace" is with Sharpton is in its own way subtly racist. And the MSM encourages it.

For every "black voice" decrying misogyny, I can find about 100 songs with lyrics like this one.

Snoop Dogg- "Ain't No Fun (If The Homies Can't Have None)"
(feat. Nate Dogg, Kurupt, Warren G)

When I met you last night baby
Before you opened up your gap
I had respect for ya lady
But now I take it all back
Cause you gave me all your pussy
And ya even licked my balls
Leave your number on the cabinet
And I promise baby, I'll give ya a call
Next time I'm feelin kinda horny
You can come on over, and I'll break you off
And if you can't fuck, that day, baby
Just lay back, and open your mouth
Cause I have never
met a girl
That I love
in the whole wide world

Well, if Kurupt gave a fuck about a bitch I'd always be broke
I'd never have no motherfuckin indo to smoke
I gets loced and looney, bitch you can't Do Me
Do we like BBD, you hoochie groupie?
I have no love for hoes
That's somethin I learned in the pound
so how the fuck am I supposed
to pay this hoe, just to lay this hoe
I know the pussy's mines, I'ma fuck a couple more times
And then I'm through with it, there's nothing else to do with it
Pass it to the homie, now you hit it
Cause she ain't nuthin but a bitch to me
And y'all know, that bitches ain't shit to me
i gives a fuck, why don't y'all pay attention
Approach it with a different proposition, I'm Kurupt
Hoe you'll never be my only one, trick ass beeeitch!

It ain't no fun, if the homies can't have none

Guess who back in the motherfuckin house
With a fat dick for your motherfuckin mouth
Hoes recognize, niggaz do too
Cuz when bitches get skanless and pull a voodoo
What you gon do? You really don't know
So I'd advise you not to trust that hoe
Silly of me to fall in love with a bitch
Knowin damn well, I'm too caught up with my grip
Now as the sun rotates and my game grows bigger
How many bitches wanna fuck this nigga named Snoop
Doggy, I'm all the above
I'm too swift on my toes to get caught up with you hoes
But see, it ain't no fun, if my homies can't get a taste of it
Cause you know I don't love em

Whoa!
Hey, now ya know, inhale, exhale with my flow
One for the money, two for the btiches
Three to get ready, and four to hit the switches
In my Chevy, six-fo' Rad to be exact
With bitches on my side, and bitches on back
So back up bitch cuz i'm strugglin, so get
off your knees and then start jugglin
these motherfuckin nuts in your mouth
It's me, Warren G the nigga with the clout
Whoo!

Last night I saw Jonathan Alter interviewed along with a black woman professor on Hardball. She was trying to make the point that Imus only makes jokes about blacks, but if he made them about other groups, he'd lose his job. Alter, who frequently appears on Imus, pointed out that Imus insults everyone, including, for example, Jews. Alter said he knows this because he is Jewish.

If someone wants to make the case that Imus should be kicked off the air because his brand of humor--across the board-- is offensive, I think they would have a legitimate case to make. Maybe he should be on satelite radio or HBO. Some venue that tolerates a wider range of taste in what is acceptable as humor and satire.

But to say Imus should be fired because he is a racist when it comes to blacks reveals one to be either ill-informed, disingenuous or so focused on their favorite trees that they can't see the big bad forest. Anyone who has heard Bernie do Cardinal Eagan would assume he hates Catholics and perhaps Christians.

Joe...

Why post that on a thread which is about eliminating such misogyny from the culture? Don't you think we already know what is said in certain songs?

Thanks for being another pimp in advertising the worst of our contemporary culture. Tell me how you've furthered this dialog by doing what you did? I don't publicize filth, I decry it.

Tony-

I posted it because you make it sound as though blacks are all going out of their way to decry such language and that everyone else is just ignoring it so they can continue to hold incorrect beliefs about black culture. I'm saying that just because one or two "voices" goes out and says this is wrong does not mean that a large amount of people agree with them. I'm saying that this type of language will continue to pervade black popular culture and that people will continue to support those who use such language because for some reason they like it, possibly because they identify with it. I'm sorry for cut and pasting something you didn't want to see- I know you'd prefer to live in a fairy tale where only your cut and pastes are read. I'm showing you language that is used on a daily basis. Appears as though the only person being willfully ignorant is you.

There is a difference between speaking out and saying "that's wrong" and saying someone should be fired.

that is the enfuriating difference in this situation. This manufactured phony rage by some in the black community over what Imus said is really just silly.

If Sharpton and Jackson and the rest of the leaders of their community would picket R. Kelly's studio or Mims or Fat Joe (All currently with top 50 songs that refer to women as "hoes") demanding that they be dropped from their record labels for this language then at least he would be consistent, and that would be somewhat respectable... but they don't do that, they only flip out when a White guy says something they don't like. Its a double standard and its bullshit...

According to a November 20, 2001, Newsday article, Rosenberg said on the air: "Listen, one of these days you're gonna see Venus and Serena Williams in Playboy." And Imus replied, "You've got a better shot at National Geographic." Rosenberg also referred to Venus Williams as an "animal." On the November 12, 2004, edition of Imus in the Morning, Rosenberg referred to Palestinians as "stinking animals" and said, "They ought to drop the bomb right there, kill 'em all right now." Now, Don Imus is quoted as saying "our agenda is to try to be funny and sometimes we go too far." However, there is not a drop of humor in any of those statements.

Tony,

I think Imus' comment about National Geographic was meant to be satirize the standards of "white" beauty in this country. Perhaps I'm giving him too much the benefit of the doubt, but I am trying to take into account his whole record. He blasted those Playboy bunny ads run against Harld Ford in TN because he knew the underlying racism they were meant to pander to.

That said, I never cared for Sid Rosenberg, and I can't stand Bo Dietl (sp?). If I'm listening to the show and he comes on, I turn the channel. Unlike Imus, Bernie and Charles, I don't think Bo is joking when he says derogatory things about certain people or groups, especially women.

I look forward to reading Etan Thomas' next Huffinton Post blog about this...

Lyrics to R. Kelly I'm A Flirt

featuring Bow Wow

Ima Ima Ima Ima flirt
Soon as I see her walk up in the club Ima flirt
Winkin eyes at me when I roll up on dem dubs Ima flirt
Sometimes when im wit my chick on the low Ima flirt
And when shes wit her man lookin at me damn right Ima flirt
So homie dont bring your girl to me to meet cause Ima flirt
And baby dont bring your girlfriend to eat cause Ima flirt
(It better be real tight to you know what im talkin bout)
Please believe it unless your game is tight and you trust herrrrr
(You bring your girl around me you better put your best pimp foot foward)
Then dont bring her round me cause Ima flirt

[Verse 1:]
Ima b pimpin
I dont be slippin
When it come down to these hoez
I dont love em
We dont cuff em
Man thats just the way it goes
I pull up in the Phantom
All the ladies think handsome
Jewelry shining, I stay stuntin
Thats why these niggas cant stand em
Ima chick mag-a-net
And anything fine im bag-gin it
And if she got a man, I dont care
10 toes and I wanna be, cause I gotta have it
Now-Now who do it like B-O-dub
Girls on me when I walk in the club
Game aint tight, Ima take yo chick
Thats it man now your girl in love
Witta rich nigga, fly young dude
Ride wit me lil mama cant lose
Dont get mad at me homie cause yo girl friend choose
See this is how goin down in da 6-1-4 from the Natty up to Clevland even in Toledo
Ima boss and you know it
I got the money ima show it (Thats right)
If I give yo girl one chance to talk to me homie she aint gon blow it
HA-HA
Now the moral of the story is cuff yo chick, cause hey,
I'm black, fresh , and I rap, plus I'm rich, and ima flirt

[Chorus:]
Soon as I see her walk up in the club Ima flirt
Winkin eyes at me when I roll up on dem dubs Ima flirt
Sometimes when im wit my chick on the low Ima flirt
And when shes wit her man lookin at me damn right Ima flirt
So homie dont bring your girl to me to meet cause Ima flirt
And baby dont bring your girlfriend to eat cause Ima flirt
Please believe it unless your game is tight and you trust herrrrr
Then dont bring her round me cause Ima flirt
[ these lyrics found on http://
www.completealbumlyrics.com ]

[Verse 2: R. Kelly]
Ima Ima Ima Ima flirt
Thats right I tell the truth and the whole truth
When it come to hoes I be pimpin like I supposed to...

I'm sure Etan and Al and Jesse all think that R. Kelly should be dropped from his record label now right? Or what about the DJ's that play this over the air... they should be fired too right?

Who let all these crickets in here?

If any of those so interested in why they haven't heard the voices of Jackson and Sharpton decry this moral blight on our society it is largely because they themselves haven't been listening or they haven't bothered to avail themselves of the countless times before microphones, from pulpits, and in the print media, that black spokespersons have been loudly opposed to the culture that degrades women, and particularly black women, and it didn't start nor end with Bill Cosby's famous rant. Due to the very nature of slavery and its aftermath, the matriarchal role in black America has and continues to be extremely important in the evolution of the black community.

You guys just don't get it do you? There are numerous loud voices everyday decrying what is heard in certain gansta rap songs. Just because you're not aware of it doesn't mean that it isn't occurring. Ask any church-going black person you know if the topic hasn't been mentioned numerous times by their own preacher on Sunday. Don't you hear T.D. Jakes, and other black preachers denouncing this at every turn?

Why is it that those not in the black community don't bother to research what is truly going on in the black community instead of using what the majority of blacks find abhorent as cover for what never should have been said about anyone's daughters, regardless of their color? Neither of you would tolerate someone calling your daughter a "ho" so why should I because Snoop Dogg is ignorant enough to do the same thing? Snoop Dogg isn't in my house or on my stereo either and that too is the choice I make.

Let me be clear, it seems that both of you are saying that the black community must recognize that its wrong to demean women as the lyrics often do, but Imus has no culpability for knowing that is is wrong to do so on his own, before he opened his mouth?

It appears you want it both ways.

Nobody's saying Imus should not be culpable. I believe what Rob's saying is that if he is, then so are the black people who do this every day and get paid for it. Or is it only wrong to call someone a nappy-headed ho if you're white? Sounds like racism to me.

You guys just don't get it do you?

No I totally get it... The leaders of the Black community (The people who really drove this Imus fiasco) don't have the balls to go after people. If they did they would be calling for the termination of 90% of hip hop artists, but they don't, so they let famous Black people pass while calling for the termination of famous white people when the say the EXACT SAME THING.

Its racism...

Why is it that those not in the black community don't bother to research what is truly going on in the black community instead of using what the majority of blacks find abhorent as cover for what never should have been said about anyone's daughters, regardless of their color?

A few years ago I saw a segment on a show like Primetime or Dateline which focused on upper and upper middle-class white kids who listen to rap and hip hop music. The girls were allowing themselves to engage in sexual activites devoid of any meaningful relationships under the misguided belief that it was cool. They were so cut off from their bodies and a healthy sense of sexuality that I found it very disturbing and frightening. I wondered if their parents knew the kind of music they were listening to and the kinds of behavior they were engaging in. While I think they are an overreaction in the opposite direction, I could see how some religious parents were holding events like Chastity Balls. At least those parents are involved in their kids lives and understand the risks to children who are over exposed to the crassness in our culture. Unlike those upper-middleclass parents who I assume are clueless.

don't have the balls to go after people

Black people that is...

it seems that both of you are saying that the black community must recognize that its wrong to demean women as the lyrics often do, but Imus has no culpability for knowing that is is wrong to do so on his own, before he opened his mouth?


I'm not actually pissed at either group... neither one offends me.

What pisses me off is this phony manufactured rage by Black people about Imus... then when their little rallies or interviews are over they jump in the car and listen to songs like the R. Kelly one posted above and they don't say one fucking word about it. I'm saying hold neither race accountable, or hold them both accountable...

but don't expect people to not notice the hypocrisy of calling for Don Imus to be fired for what is common language in the Black community.

Rob...

While I will defend the rights of anyone to listen to what they want to, to say that everyone in the black community is doing it is as false as me saying every white person is listeing to Toby Keith. It is fine to decry those who fit your example, but Sharpton, Jackson, and most of those speaking out have been equally vociferous in denouncing the same misogyny when it comes from blacks.

"Black was when we didn't have nothing and we put our dimes and quarters together and we built our own black colleges and our own black churches." They don't have to lynch no more. They just let the guns go in the hood and you're stupid enough to kill yourself."

"We wasn't selling dope to each other. We wasn't calling our mama a "ho." If you're down, say you're down, but don't celebrate being down. People didn't pay a price for us to go back into slavery the back way."

Sharpton said this and he's been saying it ever since its negative influence has undermined the culture. I think the difference is most in the community don't want to see the blacks profiting from their talents denied this opportunity. We'd just like to see them use different language and phrases while they're doing so.

It is fine to decry those who fit your example, but Sharpton, Jackson, and most of those speaking out have been equally vociferous in denouncing the same misogyny when it comes from blacks.


Where do you come up with this bullshit? Equally?

Has sharpton ever called for a rapper to be fired...

I believe the name of Whoopi Goldbergs company is 1HoProductions is it not? Has he called for her to be fired?

Equally my ass...

Rob...

Are you trying to imply that those who SELL their records are the same as someone paid to speak his mind for hours every single weekday on tv and radio for a living?

When have Whoopie and rappers denegrated a particular group of individuals by name that didn't have a forum to answer such criticism in kind?

To analogize what Imus did with gansta rap in general or a name someone gives themselves doesn't begin to compare. And please stop trying to act as if this was the first time Imus crossed the line. His history is full of questionable slights toward those not present to defend themselves.

Not every single person is calling for Imus' job, or has that passed your attention too? Criticise those who meet what you're critical about, but the vast majority of Imus' observers know that the marketplace will decide his fate, not the cries of any particular critic who doesn't listen to him in the first place.

"to say that everyone in the black community is doing it is as false as me saying every white person is listeing to Toby Keith"

So he exaggerated. Let's say that only one person in the black community speaks this way about women (*chortle*). Why are black activists picketing outside Don Imus' studio and not Snoop Dogg's recording studio?

"To analogize what Imus did with gansta rap in general or a name someone gives themselves doesn't begin to compare"

You're right, it doesn't compare, because Imus is white, which somehow makes it more wrong to use that language. Also, pursuant to the example I posted above, rappers use much more foul language than Imus did. But one is worthy of picketing and the other isn't. Why? Why not just admit the double standard and explain why you and so many others hold it?

Are you trying to imply that those who SELL their records are the same as someone paid to speak his mind for hours every single weekday on tv and radio for a living?


How is it any different? Imus talks on the radio, rappers make albums and videos.

they're both heard on the same media, they both make millions, they're both heard by millions... How is it any different.

Has any of the leaders from the Black community (Sharpton, Jackson, head of NAACP, etc) called for the firing of a Black rapper for using racist and misogynistic remarks?

Why? Why not just admit the double standard and explain why you and so many others hold it?

Posted by JOE


I'm not sure which pisses me off more, the double standard or the lengths to which people in the Black community will go to deny it.

Why? Why not just admit the double standard and explain why you and so many others hold it?

Posted by JOE at 2007-04-11 02:57 PM | Reply

1) I don't find the comparisons you and Rob are are drawing between rappers and news personalities to be analogous. We talked that to death yesterday and didn't make any progress, so we have to set it aside.

2) I don't claim to be here speaking on behalf of "all black people" when I say: I don't like what Imus said because he targetted nice girls - I could really have cared less if he targeted hookers or lawyers :) I am speaking for myself. Why is it that when some people consider how to behave towards and or engage black people, they think in terms of a nebulous "community." When you think about what is or is not offensive to a white indicidual do you base that upon some concept of "the white community" or do you base that upon your knowledge of the individual and their expressed sense of propriety?

I am asking to be regarded as an individual in this discusssion. I am asking for these girls to be regarded as individuals. If they are telling Imus they don't like being called ho's, why is what Al Sharpton thinks about R Kelley an excuse or relevant?

(Obviously, yes, Al Sharpton injected himself in this circus, but I don't think the Rutgers university women's basketball team invited him.)

Rob-

For me it's the latter. Hypocrisy is one thing, coming up with a line of bullshit to defend it is another story altogether, and for some here it's an art form.

"coming up with a line of bullshit to defend it is another story altogether, and for some here it's an art form."

And Libertarian Joe knows bullshit.

I don't find the comparisons you and Rob are are drawing between rappers and news personalities to be analogous.

One is an entertainer paid millions of dollars to be seen on tv and heard over the radio by a large mass of people...

and the other... wait... which was I talking about in the first one?

"I don't find the comparisons you and Rob are are drawing between rappers and news personalities to be analogous. We talked that to death yesterday and didn't make any progress, so we have to set it aside."

Don Imus is a news personality? LOL. Even if he were, what basis do you have for holding him to a different standard than snoop dogg? They're both in the entertainment business and have millions of listeners. Why is it okay for one to call someone a ho and not okay for the other? I won't set this aside just because you weren't able to win a bullshit argument about it yesterday. If you don't think it's analogous, tell me why.

"Why is it that when some people consider how to behave towards and or engage black people, they think in terms of a nebulous "community."

Because that is the image that is perpetuated by loudmouths like Sharpton and Jackson. If making a statement about one black person has the potential to offend "the entire black community," then when speaking about such issues "some people" will also talk about the black community. It's rare that when a statement like this is made, the first person to speak up and say they are offended is the person who the statement was directed toward. Instead, you get loudmouths claiming offense on behalf of the community.

December 9, 1993
Kitchener-Waterloo Record

New York (AP) - WBLS, one of New York City's most influential black radio stations, is banning songs that advocate violence or have lyrics that are profane or hateful toward women.

"If we play it, we're putting our seal of approval on it," Frankie Crocker, vice-president of WBLS owner Inner City Broadcasting Corp., said Tuesday. "We're taking the higher road. We're doing what is morally right."

Pierre Sutton, Inner City chairman, refused to discuss which records or performers would be affected.

But many recent hits are likely victims, such as I Get Around, rapper Tupac Shakur's tribute to bachelorhood, or Downtown, a demand for oral sex by the female singing trio SWV.

November 28, 1993
Sunday Times
By Geordie Greig

SNOOP Doggy Dogg is a strange role model for millions of American children: a convicted drug pusher who is accused of murder. Yet he is the fastest rising star in the American music world.
He is the latest excrescence of gangsta-rap - the glorification of ghetto violence and degradation of black women which is sweeping young black America. His new record, Doggystyle, was released on Tuesday after he was freed from jail on $1 m bail, and is already a bestseller.

Many other blacks are appalled. Desperate to fight the teenage black-on-black violence that is lacerating their communities, they have launched a backlash against gangsta-rap and are demanding censorship if young black musicians fail to snow more responsibility.

"This negative message of destruction and denigration of life has got to stop," said Nathan McCall, a black writer who is spearheading the initia- tive for change. "It is having a corrosive effect on young black Americans who hold these rappers up as heroes. Their songs are overwhelming the power of parents, teachers and other figures of authority."

He added: "What is important is we tell our kids now what is right and what is wrong and some rap is clearly very wrong."

Criticism of rap is still taboo among some blacks, who fear betraying their race and siding with racist whites. "Young blacks have enough critics without us slamming them too," said one black scholar. "At least these guys are out there making a living."

Many black children are also reluctant to have the older generation criticise their idols, who boast of "packing" guns as a "protection thing".

But black parents, politicians and intellectuals are sick of rap's glorification of ghetto violence and the degrading depiction of black women as "bitches and hos [whores]".

....On the gangsta rap thing:

Why is it so popular?

Why does it resonate to a degree whereby it has such a large, appreciative audience?


Could KKK rap EVER generate (in these modern times) the success of gangsta rap? Let's say if Eminem were to pioneer KKK rap, would it prosper (yes, I know this is speculative).


What in the hell is the appeal of gangsta rap?

Joe...

There isn't one black rapper with his/her own syndicated radio/tv show that reaches the number of people that Imus does every single weekday. This is just fact. To try and compare things that don't compare is futile.

Leadbelly has already showed that black America only accounts for around 10% of gangsta rap sales, so who are the other 90% and aren't they equally responsible for the success of misogynistic content?

And the two men you continually bitch about have both been vocal critics of what you're moaning about. They do hold the rappers responsible for what they say just like they do Imus for what he said.

Thanks for sharing that, Tony.

What in the hell is the appeal of gangsta rap?

In a sense, its the same appeal that anything outlaw has on younger people. The more things change, the more they stay the same. If your parents hate it, it must be good. This is just today's version of rebellion rock, albeit with more tangible consequences than just blown eardrums.

There are white supremacist music acts and their popularity continues to grow in certain circles.

Operation PUSH is calling for a 40-day "gangsta rap fast,"

Wow... a 40 day fast...

So nobody gets fired, nobody has to change their ways/lyrics/attitude...

Whew... the good Reverend is really pulling out the big guns...

I had no idea a Fast was called for... wow... I stand corrected.

No, wait... corrected isn't the right word... Vindicated, that's what I'm looking for.

So he acknowledges both are bad, but Black people get the 40 day fast, Imus should be completely fired. Nah! Not double standard at all there.

"There isn't one black rapper with his/her own syndicated radio/tv show that reaches the number of people that Imus does every single weekday"

I see. So, it isn't that Imus is white, it's that he has a larger audience. You're right, gangsta rap is not as popular as Don Imus, there are just hours-long programs daily on music television and radio stations that play the music. Even if I were to accept your argument that gangsta rap is not as popular as Don Imus, why should that matter? Where is the threshold that you are apparently aware of in terms of how many listeners someone can have and use foul language before being held accountable for it?

Or perhaps you'd be better off not drawing pretend lines in the sand when we all know why people are picketing Imus and not at Snoop Dogg. If a black talk radio host referred to a few college basketball players as "nappy headed ho's," would anyone care? If not, why not? Is it because that language is part of their normal vernacular so it has come to be accepted?

Joe,
If you are interested in my opinions on #1, you'll have to re read yesterdays dicussion on it. You probably won't be satisfied, but I've invested all the energy I intend to in that subject.

MUCH more importantly to me, as I've said about 70000 times in the last 2 days, I don't buy rap music, I don't listen to it on the radio and I am admant and activist about keeping the young people I work with away from it. I put as much energy into discouraging my corner of the world from consuming that kind of crap as I do into thinking about Don Imus. I swear I do.

What I haven't done is call for Imus to be fired. I haven't protested outside his studio. I haven't called him a racist, and I haven't really given 2 shits about the racial component of his insult.

I have consistenly tried to talk about the personal and individual nature of this issue. I feel bad for the players and their parents and their future children that when reflecting upon their NCAA championship campaign, they will have to recall their loved one being referred to as whorish and ugly. The 1st "group" concern I had about the issue was the way it impacts female athletes and their continuing challeneges to their feminitiy. I realize, I am not echoing the same sentiments as the Sharpton rally goers.

I have been trying to reorient this discussion on the "important" part of the issue which is the individual treatement of these individuals in question. That's all I really care about here. If Imus wants to try to drop N bombs, I'll just turn him off like I do Snoop. Most of his use of racial jokes is biting commentary on poor behavior by people who have earned a toung lashing. In this case, he attacked innocent nice kids. I have been spending my energy on this topic trying to reorient the discussion from Rob's beef with Sharpton to the issue of concern for these girls as individuals.

I am frustrated by Rob's insistence that the most important issue at stake here is some kind of PC/race baiting scorecard. To me that line of the discussion is an "obfuscating misdirection" to borrow a phrase. The least important individual in this saga is Al Sharpton, and Rob won't shut up about him becuase Rob wants to opportunistically fight his anti-pc crusade for white man's rights to be offensive. While Rob's issue may even have some acutal basis in fact and merrit, it's fairly low on the agenda of issues of racial justice that affect people's lives in tangible ways. The attempt to draw equivalence between Rob or Imus' right to tell a lame joke without being scorned and the right of people to live lives with dignity and equality of opprotunity is maddenning. More thanI'm offended by Imus I'm offended by Rob's bullshit.

If a black talk radio host referred to a few college basketball players as "nappy headed ho's," would anyone care?

I am convinced that the black community would care. A black talkshow host making a similar comment would be scored and a "sell-out and a self-hater" and accused of not properly appreciating his black women. It would be a different type of beating, but he would still take a beating. If Montel had said this, Oprah would have him kneecapped and run off the air.

Lead,

I have been trying to reorient this discussion on the "important" part of the issue which is the individual treatement of these individuals in question.



The problem is that from that angle, it really has been adequately addressed on this thread and the other threads of this nature over the last couple of days. I agree that your focus is a very important angle regarding this discussion; I just don't know what else to say that hasn't already been said.

Given that, the race-issues, hypocrisy, double-standards, etc. ARE big issues and certainly warrant discussion as well.

More thanI'm offended by Imus I'm offended by Rob's bullshit.

Posted by leadbelly

LOL That's why he's the A_____________________________
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_hole:>)

Leadbelly-

You are far more reasonable on this issue than most others.

"In this case, he attacked innocent nice kids"

Did he?

Don't you think he might have just been making fun of how some people talk? Not that that's an acceptable goal, but honestly, I think what he was doing was incorporating the vernacular used by others in making a joke about how they look. Is that an "attack" worthy of such condemnation, or worse, some sort of racial epithet? Not to me, but hey, everyone's different.

In terms of Sharpton's agenda being the least important in terms of racial justice, that may be true to a reasonable person like yourself, but unfortunately that's the agenda that gets the most press coverage while they show pictures of Imus sitting there with his cowboy hat on.

Rob won't shut up about him becuase Rob wants to opportunistically fight his anti-pc crusade for white man's rights to be offensive

That's not even close to what it is... its about not having double standards... its about freedom of speech... its about equality.

Imus has been suspended because of the outrage of Black people, to deny that is the equivolent of denying gravity. This story would have gone no where if not for the actions of Black community leaders... leaders who have NEVER taken the same stance against people who have said the exact same thing... and the only reason left to explain that silence is because those people are black and Imus is White.

I have no problem with Imus being scorned or picketed or boycotted or whatever, that's freedom of speech... its fine... but it is also my freedom of speech to point out the hypocrisy of black men and women who are pissed off at a white man for saying the exact same thing that many black men and women say day in and day out on every form of media. This phony rage at Imus is what is the bullshit.

"I am convinced that the black community would care. A black talkshow host making a similar comment would be scored and a "sell-out and a self-hater" and accused of not properly appreciating his black women."

Give me a break. If you're not willing to admit the double standard, then you're no more worth debating than Tony.

Jeff,

What in the hell is the appeal of gangsta rap?

Posted by JeffJ at 2007-04-11 03:23 PM

When I was younger and "clubbing" I did listen to this stuff. I grew up and grew out of it. "Gangtsa rap" is primarily male adolescent fantasy material. Money, Power, Women, Rejection of Authority. That's what it is all about and those are things that generally appeal to teenage males. In other generations it was gangster movies my dad wathced whom my grandparents though indecent. The other thing about the whole "gangster rap" thing is that it comes from a comic tradition. It wasn't intitially supposed to be taken seriously. The joke was "I'm so bad I'll slap my own mama" It's the same "wolfin" tradition that comes down from the blues, John Lee Hooker's Mannish boy through Rudy Ray Moore's Dolemite and on to Eazy-E. They were all over the top braggards who said things that everyone knew weren't true, but "I can't believe he said that." Eazy-E was a cartoon character. Everyone who lived in an urban setting knew of someone "like him" but not over the top.

Over the top humor is a big part of what our sense of "cool" is really all about. It's about clowning. It's about green and gold alligator loafers. Walt Frazier wearing fur coats in New York in July. Ali ryming at his press conferences. It's comedy. It's lauging in the face of challenges and difficulties. Gangta rap took a tragic wrong turn becaues it got absorbed by the mainstream. When the mainstream emulates "cool" the humor gets lost. People start taking things seriously. Ice-T puts out a song about killing cops because he means it, not because he's playing an absurd character. The mainstreaming of the gangster image is what brought us to where we are today. Where Snoop thinks he's really the character he plays on record. The irony, the awareness of the sillyness of it got lost. That's a big part of why I left it behind me, but also simply becuase you are supposed to grow out of indulging adolescent fantasy. Adults are supposed to stop acting like teenagers eventually.

Give me a break. If you're not willing to admit the double standard, then you're no more worth debating than Tony.


I don't see a double-standard, Joe.

The problem is that your question calls for a speculative answer.

Until a black radio personality actually makes such a comment, all we can do is speculate as to how 'the black community' would respond. How is that a double standard?

Joe,
Give me a break. If you're not willing to admit the double standard, then you're no more worth debating than Tony.

Posted by JOE at 2007-04-11 03:53 PM

Because I hold a differing opinon, I'm not worth debating? You're right, its pointless for us to discuss this since we disagree.

I admit freely that they would get differnt flavors of shit sandwich, but they would get shit just the same.

Thank you for the well-thought answer to my question, Lead.

Until a black radio personality actually makes such a comment, all we can do is speculate as to how 'the black community' would respond. How is that a double standard?

Posted by JeffJ


Whoopi has a radio show... her company is called One Ho Productions.

But that's not the strongest case... the strongest case is the lack of outrage when Black entertainers use such language... why in the world would it carry over? It hasn't been a problem when Rappers say it, comedians say it, actors say it, authors say it... but radio is where the line will be drawn...

Rob,
So he acknowledges both are bad, but Black people get the 40 day fast, Imus should be completely fired. Nah! Not double standard at all there.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2007-04-11 03:35 PM

That is indeed a double standard. I offer no defense for Operation Push. a 40 day "fast" from degrading yourselves is just about the dumbest thing I've heard in since Bush' last state of the union.

Now that we agree that the actvists and any midnless followers that pull in tow have a double standard can we move on to the issue of the individual treatment of these girls?

Your double standard is about 700th on my list of racial injustices to cure today.

Joe,

It's not so much of a double standard (although in many cases a double standard does exist) as it is a distinction, a difference, if you will.

White people in this country didn't endure slavery. White people didn't endure the fight for civil rights. These adversities created a sense of 'community' or common cause within the black community. Yes, PC bullshit plays a role, which is what you are decrying. Nevertheless, you and Rob are clamoring for 'sameness' when that simply isn't possible. I think that is the direction we ultimately want to move, and we've certainly come a long way in the last 40 years. However, we aren't there yet. The wounds and pain of the past are still too near the present.

God, I am starting to sound like a limp-wristed liberal!

Jeff,

Given that, the race-issues, hypocrisy, double-standards, etc. ARE big issues and certainly warrant discussion as well.

Posted by JeffJ at 2007-04-11 03:49 PM |

People who without fail put the "double standard" question or the crusade against Al Sharpton before the actual harm done to individuals on the basis of race, sex or planetary origin are full of shit. They are selling an agenda and don't care about people. That chaps my hide weather it comes from an anonymous message board poster or a broadcast news pundit.

leadbelly
you say you grow out of this mindset-tell
pacman jones-tell all the pruducers and performers in their mind 30's who are still hip hoppin
jasman

Jas,
I said I grew out of this mindset.

A big part of the problem in the black community today is the SAME as the big problem in american society in general: prolonged adolecence. People aren't growing out of childish things.

Pac Man Jones is a retard. Don't saddle me with him. He ain'y my brother, he's heavy.

Lead,


People who without fail put the "double standard" question or the crusade against Al Sharpton before the actual harm done to individuals on the basis of race, sex or planetary origin are full of shit. They are selling an agenda and don't care about people.


Threads of this nature generate a wide range of responses. I don't think it's a situation whereby one necessarily 'doesn't care about people' when their initial reaction is to hone in on a double-standard that has been bothering them for a long time.

I think you've unfairly assigned motive.

"Because I hold a differing opinon, I'm not worth debating?"

It's not just a differing opinion, it's ignorance of a fact. If you are honestly going to say that snoop dogg telling hoes to lick his balls is somehow not comparable to Imus calling them nappy-headed hoes, without explaining why, then we are at an impasse. Similarly, when you are unwilling to admit that black people get away with misogyny more often than whites simply because they use ebonics when doing so, then we are at an impasse. I don't really have the time to try to convince anyone that these are facts in our society, so I don't really feel like debating it.

should have said "simply because they use ebonics when doing so, and that is already considered an acceptable way for them to speak,"

leadbelly
we carry all them rich stupid idiots around us at all times -you might not see them but a lot of other people see them when they look at you-thats what racism is -bendin people to fit a stero type-and you what i've learned a lot of people are jus as pissed when you don't fit that mold
jasman

Joe,

To a large extent I agree with you regarding the double standard and PC knee-jerk bullshit.

However, a black person referring to a black woman as 'ho' is NOT the same as a white person doing it - and it really pains me to say this.


For much of our country's history, as a group, blacks have been subjugated by whites. Brave people on both sides have fought hard to eradicate this travesty. As a result we've reached a point in our society where we are more race-neutral than we've ever been.

That said, when a white man disparages a black, a flood of painful memories and feelings arise due to past subjugation that hasn't yet been forgotten. Those feelings simply don't manifest when a black man makes the same comment.

Again, you are looking for an exact same standard when it simply doesn't exist.

Joe,
I'm goin to give this an honest try, becuase I think you are assiming I'm comming from a place I'm not comming from.

I have avoided comparing Snoop and Imus. for a reason I can only illustrate through a Rob'esq hypothetical:

Do you think Larry Elder would get the same response from the media for calling the Rutgers Womens Basketball team nappy headed ho's as Snoop would?

I don't think he would. I think Elder would get the response I described in my post above. Larry would get fed a shit sandwhich by Oprah and Jet Magazine. If Oprah raised enoug of a stink, the mass media might give the story traction. Most likely, they would ignore it because not enough viewers know who Larry Elder is, or care when two black celebrities are arguing. It's just that no white people read jet magazine so wouldn't know about it. Would Al Sharpton get involved? No. I admint freely that Sharpton and the activists blind followers in tow have the double standard you complain about.

Snoop on the other hand has probably already called them ho's and no one cares.

That's what I mean when I say talk show hosts and Rappers aren't the same. They occupy different places in the public conciousness. Is it rational that rappers get a pass on behaving like heathens? No it's not, but it is a distraction from the issue at hand.

Jeff,

I think you've unfairly assigned motive.

Posted by JeffJ at 2007-04-11 04:17 PM

I have consistently seen Rob take any and every thread on this blog that concerns racial issues and trump up a "double standard" charge to distract from any actual offense. He likes when people are offended. His ultimate goal is not "equality" as he claims. He could care less about equality. What he wants is for him to be able to enjoy meaness and insulting behavior "guilt free." It's all well and good for that to be his priority, but it is an insult to actual issues concerning racial injustice.

Jeff-

Now we're getting somewhere. Admitting that they aren't being held to the same standard is the first step. Leadbelly and Tony appear to be contending that they are.

For me the next step is talking about why the two groups are held to different standards. The historical background is always relevant. However, I find it hard to believe that an overwhelmingly painful wave of feelings can be exhumed by a person who never contributed to our country's racist history saying something about people who were never victims of our country's racist history. Perhaps it should raise a red flag - a white guy saying something about some black girls - but finding out that the person isn't really a racist should be the end of it. Unfortunately, for whites, it isn't.

Lead,


Snoop on the other hand has probably already called them ho's and no one cares.

That's what I mean when I say talk show hosts and Rappers aren't the same.


Drawing an analogy:

That is the same reasoning I was given when I pointed out that placing panties on the head of a detained combatant in Iraq garnered WAY more outrage than US soldiers and newspeople having their heads sawed off on camera at the hands of those combatants. People aren't caught off guard when savages act like savages. People considered them savages BEFORE the next publicized act of savagery. It's not condonement, much less tacit approval. It's just that such behavior is expected from certain individuals and is NOT expected from others.

Good points Leadbelly. I see where you are coming from. We are actually not too far off from each other, as I have posted a few times that the more common the use of the vernacular is, the more acceptable it apparently is to continue to do so. That is what I have a problem with. If it is the language itself that's the problem, then those using it the most should be condemned the most. That is why I have an obvious problem with people picketing and calling for the firing of someone who makes one comment while others who use the language more, are for some reason "not the same" because they do it more. You're right, it isn't the same, they are worse.

Lead,

I have consistently seen Rob take any and every thread on this blog that concerns racial issues and trump up a "double standard" charge to distract from any actual offense. He likes when people are offended. His ultimate goal is not "equality" as he claims. He could care less about equality. What he wants is for him to be able to enjoy meaness and insulting behavior "guilt free." It's all well and good for that to be his priority, but it is an insult to actual issues concerning racial injustice.


Rob is an agitator to be sure. But he is also capable of serious discourse. As much fun as he has being provocative, I don't detect the 'meanness' that you are perceiving.

I don't think pointing out hypocrisy necessarily means that his motive for doing so is to enjoy guilt-free meanness. You've made a leap in your logical construct that could be classified as a non-sequitur.

Joe,
MY problem with the Imus situation had very little to do with the racial component of the insult. I was offended on behalf of female athletes who have to continuously contend with comments about their femininity, appearane and sexuality. Over the years, as a time to time listener I have heard Imus blast other black people who invited scor upon themsleves, and couldn't help but chuckle at some of the biting racially based insults he's used. I was offended becuase he picked on nice girls, not because he's white or because they were black.

(I am fuly aware that this is not the reason Al Sharpton is crusading.)

Rob pretty much said I was lying about my reason for being offended becuase he's pushing an agenda and engaging my concerns about the personal level of this issue was counterproductive to selling his bullshit.

Joe,
Wait . . . you mean I actually communicated my point and you aren't going to misdirect by proping up a strawman that I havent agrued? Oh, that's right, you're not Rob. You aren't full of shit.

others who use the language more, are for some reason "not the same" because they do it more.

Absoultely, but they are so much worse they are classified differently. They unlike Larry Elder or Imus, aren't expected to treat anyone with dignity.

Rob think Imus' apology was a load of crap. I think this is salient point of his apology. He acknowledged there are certain people he shouldn't be trashing. It was a mistake to bash these girls "because they didn't deserve it"

"Rob pretty much said I was lying "

If you don't agree with Rob, you must be lying.

"selling his bullshit"

It's usually free. And pretty much available in unlimited quantities.

Joe,
In conclusion, as I did say to Rob at one point yesterday, there is a doublestandard. Race matters, but the doublestandard isn't the reason Imus is in hot water vs. Snoop. It's his position, his forum and the expectations of that platform. Larry Elder would be in similar trouble. Sharpton wouldn't be on his case (thus the double standard) but Imus comments were not innocuous and woulnd't be thought so from a black broadcaster in him same circumstances.

"Rob pretty much said I was lying "

If you don't agree with Rob, you must be lying.

"selling his bullshit"

It's usually free. And pretty much available in unlimited quantities.




Posted by Corky

ff

It blows my mind that this conversation has continued for three days over an issue that shouldn't be disputed by anyone.

Leadbelly's right. These girls didn't deserve it.

It shouldn't have been said.

Joe...

Much of what Leadbelly has already said speaks to my feelings on this subject as well. What I see you missing from my perspective is that I haven't picketed, nor demanded that Imus be fired. I was insulted by his comments because he spoke about young women who did nothing to deserve his condescension, as if he were referring to my own daughter that he didn't know either.

If you'd like to check my archives, I've consistently made the argument from my point of view that race wasn't even a part of my feelings, sexism was. And, as Leadbelly already said, I realize that most speaking loudly are basing their ire more on race so I understand your call of a double standard. Double standards can only exist when things are equal in every way, and in this case Imus is not equal to music being played on radio stations that Imus nor the majority of his fans even listen to.

I am standing up where I see people improperly wronged through no fault of their own. But lastly I think you need to recognize that not just blacks found Imus' comments eggregious. I doubt whether the heads of Proctor & Gamble nor Staples happen to be black, but they made a decision to spend their advertising dollars someplace else. I would not lift one finger to stand in the way of anyone wishing to stifle the economic opportunities of those selling misogyny packaged as music.

I make my personal choices more quietly, as do the vast majority of black people, but that doesn't mean this issue isn't important or that nothing is being done to try and change the pathology that supports it.

These girls didn't deserve it.

That's what Imus himself has said. I think his days in the MSM are coming to an end. His big name sponsors are starting to drop him: GM, Proctor and Gamble, Staples, American Express, Glaso-Smith Kline, ect.

Apparently there have been calls from people like Maya Angelou to clean up our culture in all areas--from Don Imus to hip hop artists. Let's see how the fallout shakes out. Then we'll see if there really is a double standard or not. Oprah could go a long way making sure that there is by leading the charge right now when all the media attention is focused on the issue.

Bani...

While I usually agree with you, this is a little more significant than the usual media fluff. This is one of the rare times when Americans can talk and learn about race, if they stop shouting at each other first. This was my attempt to have this type of dialog and in a large part I think its succeeded.

Every issue you mention will still be relevant long after the Imus controversy is a footnote in history. This is about the search inward instead of the one outside ourselves. Both journeys are equally important if we are to move toward a more equal society and view the one through a more honest lens than we currently use.

Peace....

Gal...

Oprah already took on the hip-hoppers and their language, don't you remember? I agree that this might be the moment where people can stand up and speak to the difference between what is acceptable and what isn't in our modern popular culture. The question is will the right ears even bother to listen and internalize the discussions?

Obama bin talkin'......

"I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus," Obama said in interview with ABC News, "but I would also say that there's nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude."

Obama said that Imus "fed into some of the worst stereotypes" that young African-American females face in America, and said he would not appear on the 'Imus in the Morning' radio program in the future."

Tony,

That's what I meant about Oprah--strike again now while the iron is hot. The fact that Maya Angelou has commented makes me think Oprah will too. A few weeks ago Joe Biden was on Imus talking about getting new equipment for the soldiers in Iraq, and he said something like: there are two people in this country who can get things done--you and Oprah. I don't know Oprah, but I know you. That's why I'm here.

Hey Tony,

Obama appeared on Hardball and said he won't appear on Imus again (only did once) and that the show should be taken off the air. He also said we need to have a debate about the coarsing of our culture. Maybe he'll make it one of his platforms in '08?

Personally, I wish Obama had taken my tact on this issue and decried Imus' comments because they offended women in general, and specifically daughters of which he has two, regardless of race. Since Hillary hasn't spoken out quite as forcibly, this may have undercut some of her female support. (Purely political comment, devoid of rational non-political thought. This issue should not be a political football, but in America thats an impossibility isn't it?)

Oh, Corky, you beat me to it. Looks like now I'm the copycat. Meow. LOL

Gal...

Thanks for the update, I'll catch the 7pm airing when I get home.

But you know what the real irony of this entire mess is? Imus will likely move to sattelite radio and make even more money than he does now, but I'm sure he will take the lessons learned from this experience with him. The real test will be to see if he's sincere about changing his ways.

I meant maybe Obama would make the coarsing of our culture a platform--not the racial issue.

I wanted to add that Imus had William Cohen and his wife on the air when they published their book on interracial marriage. Like Oprah, his endorsement of a book has the ability to raise its sales tremendously.

Rappers are writing about fiction "hos", for the most part.

www.takeourmusicforward.com

Posted by Sully at 2007-04-11 05:59 PM

(tounge firmly planted in cheek)

When rappers are talking about ho's they are not taling about "fiction." They are talking about actual ho's i.e. groupies who offer them sexual favors in exchange for material gains or proximity to the entertainment industry. It's one thing to call a spade a spade, it's another to call student athletes ugly whores.

There really are such a thing as ho's out there. As a matter of fact, I'll be giving Rob's wife a ride on the baloney pony a little later this evening.

Bye, Don. Regardless of what any of you think, I will miss the interviews.

Maybe Imus thought he was on an unmoderated thread.