Man it's a slow news week.

really and this is a lot of bunk.....

there have been people who have had thier carreers ruined for a lot less....jimmy the greek comes to mind......
but then again.......all he was doing was mimicking every rap record you have ever heard....
I mean they were nappy-headed and I heard some guy the other day talk about how this language was not big deal when it came from rap bullshit.....
so whats the big deal............

"but then again.......all he was doing was mimicking every rap record you have ever heard...."

And that makes it OK because we all know that every black person in America is either a rapper, a gangsta rapper fan or a nappy headed ho.

DOGMAN

Personally, I think this issue has blown out of proportion. How did that comment racist. While I consider it a little crude and inappropriate, in no way did I find it racially charged. Is there other things for Rev. Sharpton to deal with instead of turning this into a racial issue.

Cut the man some slack. This is just ridiculous.

Many years ago there was a big New York weather guy Tex Antoine. He told a joke on air regarding women should just enjoy rape if it was inevitable. He lost his job and wasn't picked up in the NY market.

Imus should probably lose his job over this it was beyond stupid. That said although I'm not an avid listener I do occasionally listen. I don't believe him to be a racist.

You do have a good point regarding rap.

and you and others also have a point.....immus has had his moment and its time for him to head on back to the ranch.......where he does some great work for underprivleged youth......even through all of his word vomits, he has to get some credit for that...maybe he should just do that for awhile........

and no dogman every black isnt all the things you mentioned.....but you putting words in my mouth doesnt disprove my point........

I think they should give him a break too. I think his apology was heartfelt, just my opinion. What bugs me is people here defending the statement. Racist or not it was an inapropriatly nasty thing to say about an accomplished group of college atheletes that had done nothing to deserve it. It was a personal insult to them and their families and the apology was warented.

Sharpton is a dick but that's another issue and shouldn't effect the fundamental shityness of this issue.


DOGMAN

In general I think it's over the top to ruin someone's career over one comment. All these calls for Imus to be fired I think are a little extreme. If you don't want to listen to Imus because of this comment or any other reason, then by all means don't listen. But everyone makes mistakes, and most people who have any sense of humor will crack an off-color joke at some point (although admittedly not on the air).

I'm saying all this and I don't even LIKE Imus, I don't listen to his show or watch his TV program, and that's just because I don't like his voice or the format of his program.

Here's what I would do if I were Don Imus: I'd apologize (already did), graciously accept the 2-week suspension, and then donate some money to a primarily african-american charity (you know he can afford it).

I thought they were going to make him do his show in a 'Fro wig and blackface.

Even I would watch him then.

Imus has said he intends to include a black regular on his show and to increase the number of interviews he does with prominent blacks in the future. He also said he wants to do more segments addressing racism. He said he'd like to learn something and work to become a better person while at the same time helping his audience learn about racial issues. If he actually does that, it could be a good thing for everyone. If he gets fired, well, that will be that. He will be punished, but I'm not sure how it will improve race relations in this country.

yeah......conflicting thoughts here as well......
what he said was pretty stupid but doesnt he have a right to talk stupid if he wants....and then doesnt the black community have a right to call for his resignation and protest his comments.

damn....havent we been down this road before?????

he was insulting a group of young people who have worked to get where they were which was a nice accomplishment, but again.....nappy headed.....well arent they.....

and 'ho's'.......isnt this the name for women that has become common from the black community or a segment of it anyway......now....does he as a white man have the right to call them that just like snoopdog would?
I dont know and I'm not sure its really worth thinking a lot more about it........

BLT, if we had been the parents of those young women, who had done nothing to deserve the outrageous remarks of Imus, I think my husband would have shown up on Imus' doorstep and rearranged his face for him...not that that wouldn't be an improvement. The remarks were undeserved, unwarranted, repulsive, vile and vulgar and even Imus recognizes that fact. Why can't you?! Good grief, what if one of those kids had been YOURS? Would you have been so cavalier about it then? I don't think so. A two week suspension is perfectly appropriate and maybe next time Imus feels the need to spew vomit, he'll excuse himself and go to the bathroom instead of letting loose on world-wide radio and television.

I believe his apologies are sincere but we are not the ones he needs to address...he needs to make it better for those lovely young ladies he so grossly insulted.

I don't think Imus is a racist. I do think he's an idiot who seems to lack the little voice in his head that tells him a comment is inappropriate or stupid, but I don't think he's a racist.


I also don't think he should be fired for this, though a reprimand (like the one he is currently under) is not beyond the pale.

And, yes, I think much more is being made of this issue than needs to be in terms of public reaction. The station is within its rights to suspend him (an I agree with that decision), but I think that should be that. Everyone not involved (re, everyone but Imus, the station and the basketball team) needs to let this drop.

Again, and I believe because the louder commentators are black, this issue has become more about race than about context and decency. As Gal so generously mentioned, Imus calls his own wife a "green-ho" on his show, so that would make "ho" race neutral, wouldn't it? And if anyone has "nappy" hair, its Imus with his curls run amok 'do, so that can be neutral as well.

The disgust with his comments had more to do with the fact his subjects weren't worthy of, nor deserved ridicule whether they were black, white, yellow or red. A national championship runners-up should not be declared "ho's" unless the speaker has intimate knowledge of their promiscuity. Obviously, he knows his wife's proclivities, or at least he should.

He comments went more to the denegration of a specific group of women only because he viewed them to be what he spoke about in jest. He targeted a group that deserved praise and acknowledgement of their achievement of reaching further than all but one women's team this season. And instead of critiquing their play, he commented on their appearance, through the eyes of a person who doesn't know or has ever met them. This is prejudice of the highest order.

While in America, no one can ignore the component of race whenever it comes into play, Imus should have been decried for his insensitivity toward women in general moreso than being called a racist. His comments were sexist first and foremost, and even for the sake of humor, people can go way too far trying to turn others into the butt of their jokes. It backfired on Imus and now he has a new legacy with which to move forward. Every bully should learn not to pick on those unable to defend themselves in the same forum from which they're attacked.

"Imus should have been decried for his insensitivity toward women in general moreso than being called a racist."

As usual Tony, you get to the basis of a situation with style, grace and honesty.

I just love reading your posts!!

Listening to Jesse Jackson talk about how harmful these comments were to the rutgers women and all black women in general, I couldn't help but wonder, "Where was jackson and Sharpton when rappers and comedians were making the term "Ho" to describe young black women acceptable?

Will these two raccial provacateurs now call for therei fellow blacks to stop using these degrading terms as well?

And how come none of the reporters interviewing jackson and Sharpton have ev en asked them about those in their community who use ther same terms and far worse then IMus has used?

"Look at the little monkey run!"
Was he fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

"Chocolate city"
Was he fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

"recycled white trash." & "that nigger whore turning tricks in City Hall."
Was he fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

"a bunch of dirty white men" Was she fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

And if anyone has "nappy" hair, its Imus with his curls run amok 'do, so that can be neutral as well.

Tony,

You asked me yesterday if Imus made fun of his wife's hair and I said, yes. I forgot to mention I think that they make fun of Imus's hair just about everyday on the show.

A national championship runners-up should not be declared "ho's" unless the speaker has intimate knowledge of their promiscuity.

I would go further than that. I don't think the fact that they were national championship runners-up matters one iota. Some losing women's college basketball team wouldn't deserve it either. Why would they?

He comments went more to the denegration of a specific group of women only because he viewed them to be what he spoke about in jest. He targeted a group that deserved praise and acknowledgement of their achievement of reaching further than all but one women's team this season. And instead of critiquing their play, he commented on their appearance, through the eyes of a person who doesn't know or has ever met them. This is prejudice of the highest order.

Imus insults lots of women--and men. I think I've heard him make remarks about the US professional women's soccer team. I don't find comments like that very entertaining. They are professional sports people, however, so I hope they have a platform to defend themselves if the so chose.

"I am deeply saddened and angered by Mr. Imus' statements regarding the members of the Rutgers women's basketball team. These talented, articulate young women put forth a great deal of hard work and effort this past season to reach the nation's grandest stage - the NCAA title game.

Throughout the year, these gifted young ladies set an example for the nation that through hard work and perseverance, you can accomplish anything if you believe. Without a doubt, this past season was my most rewarding in 36 years of coaching. This young team fought through immeasurable odds to reach the highest pinnacle and play for the school's first national championship in a major sport.

To serve as a joke of Mr. Imus in such an insensitive manner creates a wedge and makes light of the efforts of these classy individuals, both as women and as women of color. It is unfortunate Mr. Imus sought to tarnish Rutgers' spirit and success. Should we not, as adults, send a message of encouragement to young people to aspire to the highest levels as my team did this season?

It is of the utmost importance to be an inspiration to young people and I truly believe my team represented Rutgers University, the state of New Jersey and NCAA student-athletes across the country in the highest manner. I am proud of these young women and strongly encourage Mr. Imus to instead read the headlines and the stories that told of our triumphs the past six months.

Thousands of alumni and fans have reached out to me the past few days to share their warm wishes and congratulations on a special year, fans of not only Rutgers University but of women's basketball. I appreciate their kindness and am proud to be associated and surrounded by ten exceptional student-athletes."

Vivian Stringer, Rutgers Women's Basketball Coach.

Well put.

Imus should be fired because his show sucks - not because he made a 'racist statement'. It is about time people in the US grew a lot thicker skin. As a white male, we have to have a thicker skin as we are the only condoned target of any 'racist' comments. Do white males complain to the FCC or try to get people fired over their comments - hell no! As long as the black community flies into an outrage everytime someone says something something off color, people hoping for that reaction will continue to say things off color.

Imus should be fired because his show sucks -
And I call for Rosie's resignation from The View.

John Kerry and Don Imus are great pals--Imus endorsed Kerry for president, and had him on his show quite a bit. So maybe Imus can appear with Kerry and the two of them can get on TV and say that Imus "botched the joke". You know, like when Kerry fell over himself to go on Imus' show the day after he said that only uneducated losers go to Iraq (I quote from memory).

The very idea that the charge of racism is being fronted by J Jackson and A Shaprton is byond insane. These two "Ho's" are the biggest racists in the country

I wonder if these well-wishers still support the Lacrosse Team blasters.

This notion on this thread that black women are fine with being called hos is crazy. Come down here to atlanta and wach a black man call a black women a ho, chances are she'll be feeding him one of her shoes in about a half a second.

It is not acceptable among blacks to be called nappy headed hos. MTV is the only place you'll find that shit.

DOGMAN

These two "Ho's" are the biggest racists in the country.

I wouldn't say Al and Jesse are racists. I do think, however, that--like most politicians--they are media whores.

just MTV? please............

gal, i wont split hairs with you. a whore is a whore

tuesday, notice that imus used the word "we" instead of "I"? its not a real apology if he's trying to spread the culpability. besides, he then follows that up with the use of the term "you people".

W, i agree with you (*barfs on my keyboard).

Right, if you are quoting from memory.... you should know full well by now that Kerry was calling Bush stupid and not the troops, but that's a topic for a two year old thread.

Bowa...

If you truly care, both Jackson and Sharpton have decried what a number of rappers do while plying their trade. This is a very large issue in the black community, yet its torn between people using creativity to get ahead instead of selling drugs or doing something else illegal, not that those are the only choices available.

I don't think you see Jackson or Sharpton endorsing the exploitative use of derogatory terms in the popular culture. Its a red herring to bring this up when one is ignorant of what actually is said and done in a positive manner to affect change.

Imus is using the public airwaves to make his living. Making records is a private industry not regulated by the government. Most of the worst songs can't even be played on the radio due to their language. No black has the platform that Imus does on a national basis, nor do rappers have this platform to spew their filth. You are comparing things not comparable for the sake of trying to imply a bias that isn't relevant in discussing the ramifications of Imus' actions.

The issue of how black America does or does not address its problems has little to do in defending or lessening the impact of Imus' words considering the differences in reach and context of the message.

tuesday, notice that imus used the word "we" instead of "I"? its not a real apology if he's trying to spread the culpability. besides, he then follows that up with the use of the term "you people".

He said we because he was referring to himself and Bernie. Where does he say you people?

The issue of how black America does or does not address its problems has little to do in defending or lessening the impact of Imus' words considering the differences in reach and context of the message.

I don't know, Tony, maybe people think: take the log out of your own eye before you attempt to take the speck out of your brother's. (Not that Imus' comment was a speck, but I hope you know what I mean.) People don't usually like to take advise from folks who say, Don't do as we do; do as we tell you to do.

Bernie was the first one to call the women "hos." Imus added "nappy headed hos." Do you have a link for the you people comment. I'd like to see it in context. As someone who says "you people" and "you guys" all the time to family and friends, I'm not ready to condemn Imus for using the phrase until I know more.

I just love reading your posts!!

Posted by Lisa at 2007-04-10 10


why dont you just go ahead and kiss his ass.........and you dont have to know that I think you are correct in your assesment.....at least most of the time,.......hee hee.....



Look at the little monkey run!"
Was he fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

"Chocolate city"
Was he fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

"recycled white trash." & "that nigger whore turning tricks in City Hall."
Was he fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

"a bunch of dirty white men" Was she fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

Posted by Petrous at 2007-04-10 10:46 AM | Reply | Flag:


you left off 'hymie town' from the rev. jackson..


DAWNGLOW......relax....I had hoped that most of you could see that in this case I was throwing out some questions for the sake of the argument......I am middle of the road on this issue.....I can see how it is hurtfull and you are right, if I were in that place I would be ready to kick his ass too....but I am not and I also see the hypocracy with some of the comments listed above.........if its hurtfull and he should resign, what about the people who are quoted from petrous????

tuesday, the full context is there in the nypost link. I'm not a huge fan of the post, but once they put "you people" in quotes, you can be reasonably sure that is what he said. the post isn't looking to open itself up to a libel suit. I'm not looking to pick a fight with you. But that said, Imus is a full grown man with 30 years in the industry. He knows what he did, and he knew before he said. Being a racist is one thing, but a racist broadcaster with no impulse control, quite another.

Who can listen to the radio for more than 10 minutes or even walk down the street and not hear the word "Ho". 99.99% of the time it is spoken by black men and occassionally black women. The black community has mainstreamed the word & now wants to act with abhorrence because Imus used it. Jackson & Sharpton are overreacting to get publicity (as usual). Odd that ministers find it so hard to forgive - isn't it??!!??

I am not a fan of Imus but I think that enough is enough. He apologized. He has been suspended.

Time to let it go - OR maybe Al & Jessie want to go after Chris Rock & numerous other black entertainers who use such language repetitively in their routines and songs?

"Jesus said to him, 'Put your sword back in its place, for all those who take up the sword perish by the sword.
Matthew 26:52


Imus makes his living by wielding a sword of ridicule at anyone whose flaws, errors, failings, sins and shortcomings become public knowledge. He takes no prisoners, gives no quarter and has no mercy. The mainstay of his show is the verbal wilding he and his court of jesters go on every morning. Swords and daggers in hand they carved up the daily fallen to feed their own ratings driven egos.

Those of the rules of the game that is shock radio. Those are the rules he helped established and maintained. He should not be surprised that they are now being used against him--that in his fallen and thus weakened state he is being carved up and served for the entertainment and financial benefit of others.

He has now been hoisted by his own petard.

Some people call it poetic justice.



(By the way, I hope someone asks him why he fired Sid Rosenberg.)

Cheers

INDEPENDENT LENS "Hip Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes"

www.pbs.org

One of the claims made was that some of these black artists do want to change their lyrics and style, but that the recording industry won't let them.

Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2007-04-10 11:40 AM M

Gal, I've seen that as well. It's an interesting piece.

Along those lines I would reiterate that black people represent very little purchasing power to the music industry. 12% of the population and less than 7% of the buying power in the MTV target demographic. For the most part, hip hop entertainers are chasing dollars from the mainstream marketplace, not from a black subset of the marketplace. To put not too fine a point on it, white youth have more to do with what kind of hip hop gets sold than black people do. The hip hop acts who have made concious choices about positive language and avoiding "gangsterism" have been almost exclusively "underground" acts with limited followings almost exclusively in the black community. Those artists maintain a more exclusive relationship to black purchasing power than the crosover "artists." Ludicrous could never sell another record to a black person and still go double platinum. Black people do consume the despicable material, but they do not drive the marketplace.

I certainly still assign responsibility to the artists who make the compromises and decisions (or lack of decisionmaking) to produce material I despise, but I also recognize that this material is shaped by the business of entertainment. That business is driven by mainstream consumers. Culpubility does not solely lie with black people.

The source of these images and language may be street culture in black communities, but it has been brought into the mainstream by mainstream consumers.

"The black community has mainstreamed the word & now wants to act with abhorrence because Imus used it."

That's complete bullshit Opinionater. I work and live among better than 90% blacks and I can tell you that the "black community" has not "maistreamed those terms. If you or anybody else goes around a bunch of blacks and starts throwing those terms around they'd all be very offended.

OK, maybe not just MTV if you must split hairs with me. MTV and other forms of media. This is not the language of the average black person in america.

DOGMAN

I don't know, Tony, maybe people think: take the log out of your own eye before you attempt to take the speck out of your brother's.

Agreed Gal, but my contention remains that what Imus did was denegrating to women in general independent of whether they were black or any other color, hence what happens in the black community has nothing to do with what I perceive as the unwarranted derogatory slight made by Imus.

People focussing on race are doing so out of knee-jerk reaction because everything is racial even when its just downright WRONG before race is even injected into the equation!

This is where Rob can't get out of his own way as he argued against what he said he wanted, which was "equality". To immediately make the claim that race underlies all criticism is to deny that Imus did not intend to be racist, he was trying to be funny. That he failed on both scores only underlies the refusal of those like Rob to even buy into what they propose to sell themselves. I think Imus would have said the same things if the women were white, burly and had tattoos, but he would have used a different term other than nappy, but he certainly would have called them "ho's". Race only comes in after the insult because it was directed toward women of color, not because race was the genesis of the insult.

good points, tuesday and belly. that said, who is more responsible, the artist, or the market that demands the product the artist produces? the same question can be put to Imus' brand of talk radio (can't believe I'm providing an out to Imus). Both examples make me ashamed to be an american, that this is the type of product our people (pun intended) wish to consume.

if lust and hate are the candy....

"The black community has mainstreamed the word & now wants to act with abhorrence because Imus used it."

Master P did get rich enough to buy the NJ Nets from BET revenues. The money that fuels the entertainment marketplace comes from white consumers by an overwealming majority. When the hip hop marketplace was driven by black consumers people were selling casset tapes out of the trunk of their cars. Things get "mainstreamed" by mainstream consumers, not by subcultures.

I was quite surprised to see a few individuals on the thread tring to qualify these comments as non-racist or sexist when they so obviously are. The hip-hop "excuse" is particularly weak.

What to do with Imus I could not care less about, shock jocking is a full contact sport and he's just got a major hit. The reaction is a bit PC driven, but hey, if you don't like it, change the station.

There are some nappy headed ho's on that team. Humour is most effective when there is some element of truth involved. Imus should have given Sharpton the finger and said get over it. I wish black leaders would actually do some self examination of the REAL problems in their community rather than grouse about this tempest in a teapot

"There are some nappy headed ho's on that team."

You been buyin it from em or something? How the fuck do you know if thy're hos or not. And what do you expect them to do, go out on the court with perfectly quafed beehives like their going to prom or something.

DOGMAN

who is more responsible, the artist, or the market that demands the product the artist produces?

The people who produce it are more responsible. People do not choose to have a dark side or not. People, however, choose to exploit it.

Cheers

Mictam,
What a great post. It was funny! If they had looked like a bunch of short haired, tattooed, metal piercing, large women and Imus called them a bunch of criminal looking dykes that would also have been funny. It was a funny observation of the Rutgers team. The dumbing down of America using the sensitivity card. Maybe Imus will have to attend a class before he get back on the air.

BTW I think Imus is an idiot and only catch glimpses of his show in the morning. I did hear last night how many kids he invites to his ranch and there is no mention of color so I guess he is an equal opportunist when it comes to kids.I do remember him bringing attention to the victims left stranded in the aftermath of Katrina. He was one of the first to expose their plight because of their color. Yet good old Al failed to bring that up. Of course Jesse had to chime in claiming there are few cable news hosts of color and stating how unfair it is to non whites in the business. Nothing to do with Imus but you know it is JJ the moral authority.

"People do not choose to have a dark side or not."

No, but people choose to indulge it. The culpability is equal. Before rappers it was heavy metal, death metal, hardcore etc. All equaly, if not more, abbrasive and harsh.

DOGMAN

The real victims here are the Rutger girls. They were minding there own business, in the national tournament, lost went home and overnight they were put in the national spotlight simply because a radio personality cannot entertain without appealing to the closet racist in america with a racist diatribe. Not only do they have to get on with their studies but how is this going to affect the team dynamics. It unfortunately puts the white teammates in an awkward position as they now have to be on eggshells until this blows over. They did not deserve this.

Beowulf says there wouldn't be an artist without a market. Without the market they're just waitstaff.

You're right Crispee, why don't you send all their parents a letter saying you think they all sell their pussys for beer money. Ask if they've been aids tested too. It's the least you can do.

DOGMAN

who is more responsible, the artist, or the market that demands the product the artist produces?

The people who produce it are more responsible. People do not choose to have a dark side or not. People, however, choose to exploit it.

Cheers

Posted by Grendel at 2007-04-10 12:45 PM

When you're talking about "Art" as in high skill, no-mass appeal niche material I'd wholeheartedly agree. But when you're talking about pop culture, commercialized crap, I do blame the marketplace more. Consumers have tremendous power in this country. Consumers generally don't take that responsibility seriously. We're not talking about where people but their toilet paper or baby clothes at the best price. We're talking about the choices consumers make for their entertainment. A
John Lee Hooker CD costs the same as a 50 cent CD.

If the mainstream consumer (of which most black consumers are a part, not a distinct subset - we are responsible too) didn't want material about ho's and guns to exist, all they have to do is stop buying it. Sony music is a business, not an Art colony.

There are some nappy headed ho's on that team. Humour is most effective when there is some element of truth involved.

This is an extremely important point. They say many a truth is spoken in jest--that is what person perceives to be true but is to embarrassed or fearful to admit.

I believe the appeal of Imus and shock jocks is precisely the fact they get away with saying things that many people would never say (but might think.) They allow adults to return to their insecure middle school attitude toward the world--which used indiscriminate shock, scatological, sexual humor has their main defense mechanism for their own inadequacies.

There are two ways to deal with the taboo, what is different or what frightens us. 1) to learn about it and understand it thereby defusing it. 2) to attack it--and to do so, one either uses anger (often leading to violence)or humor.

Humor is about power. In almost any humorous situation or joke, there is a power transfer--generally from the object (the butt) of the joke to the teller or belief system or ideology of the teller.

This is why racist language or even racist jokes are acceptable if the person who tells them is of the same cultural background as the butt of the joke--or it is acceptable if the joke is at the expense of people in power and is told by a member of a group who is disenfranchised. This is the nature of satire.

When the person tells the joke, however, is of the dominant culture or part of the mainstream power structure and the joke is at the expense of a minority, then the transfer of power from the disenfranchised to the already dominant culture is seen as an abuse.

Cheers

Crispee,
Let's do an experiment. I assume you have parents. Please post your parents email, phone numbers and mailing address and let's all send them derogatory comments about you to see how funny they think it is.

You're right Crispee, why don't you send all their parents a letter saying you think they all sell their pussys for beer money. Ask if they've been aids tested too. It's the least you can do.

DOGMAN

You are such a joke. Get off your righteous self and get a clue. You have this phony anger and portray yourself as some sort of voice of reason. This doesn't affect you one iota, yet you act like you are offended andlike every other thread you think you know where someone stands on all issues based on a single post. Even though your response has nothing to do with what was written or its context. Make sure you come back with another lame Alan Colmes like, juvenile question.

Grendel,
With all due respect, there couldn't be a less important or less relevant point. This is not about the nature of humor. I know Imus meant to make a "joke", but he wasn't trying to deconstruct power structures he was babbling like the moron that he is. This wasn't a social commentary joke. This was a lame 5th grade mean spirited lauging at you not with you joke.

We're not talking about Mel Brooks or Lenny Bruce here. We're talking about a crusty old dullard in a powdered wig.

But when you're talking about pop culture, commercialized crap, I do blame the marketplace more. Consumers have tremendous power in this country.

True, but that power is subverted, co-opted and made malleable at the seductive hands of Madison Avenue to the point where society is conditioned by advertising to accept --no actually demand--what is being created for them.
The greatest force that shapes American values is not the religion, the family nor education--but advertising with its unholy alliance with the entertainment industry. IMHO

Advertising does just pitch products to fill needs; it often creates the need and then pitches the product to satisfy it. It feeds on our inborn insecurities and even create ones we never knew about.

The bottom line message of advertising is to tell us that we are not happy and that we won't be happy until we buy and do: a, b or c. As soon as we do this, however, we learn we actually need: x, y and z.

Sometimes, I think all commercials should come with a surgeon general warning--"Warning, prolonged exposure to advertising can be damaging to your emotional and psychological health."

Cheers

We're not talking about Mel Brooks or Lenny Bruce here. We're talking about a crusty old dullard in a powdered wig.

Posted by leadbelly at 2007-04-10 01:23 PM

Who was one of the first radio personalities to point out the conditions and victims of Katrina and try and put a face on it. Was he being a crusty old racist? Did he have to point the finger at how fucked up the system and society can be?

Be honest Leadbelly. The only reason you are on the offensive is because it was said by someone who wasn't of color. I on the other hand thought it was funny and would have laughed regardless of where I heard it and who it was said by.

"True, but that power is subverted, co-opted and made malleable at the seductive hands of Madison Avenue to the point where society is conditioned by advertising to accept --no actually demand--what is being created for them.
The greatest force that shapes American values is not the religion, the family nor education--but advertising with its unholy alliance with the entertainment industry. IMHO"

Excellent post, Grendel. And it's not just Madison Avenue pushing consumerism as a religion. Ever see the mini grocery carts for kids labeled "shopper in training"?

Crisp,
Don't presume to know my mind. I can speak for myself quite capablly.

And don't put words in my mouth. I didn't call him a racist.

I have listened to Imus on and off over the years and I know and get his act. He is an equal opportunity offender, he has used racial jokes to insult black people before as he has picked on white people, mexicans and plenty of others. Usually he goes after targets who have done something negative to get themselves on the media radar screen. IMHO a group of college athletes who have done nothing ridicule worthy are not fair game for his act. That's my problem with it.

The racial component of this is the least significant to me. I found his comments abhorent becuase he made appearance and sexual activity based comments about young women who did nothing negative to invite ridicule. I do think of college freshmen as girls, and as people's daughters and sons. In particular, the challenges and stereotypes female athletes face about sexuality and feminity make this a really insensitive attack agasint young people. I have a sensitivity there becuase of a lifetime of involement with athletics.

One day one of these girls will have their daughter run across the story of their mom's campaign for a national championship, and they will hear their mother described as ugly and whorish. As a mentor of young people, a coach and an athlete. That bothers me.

There is obviously a racial component to this becuase of the characteristics of the players. I don't deny that, but it's really not what gets to me here. Speaking for myself, not for Al Sharpton, I would still think he's a dick for talking about the BYU girls fieldhockey team this way.

I don't really care why you think it was funny, but it does reinforce my perception of you as someone not worth knowing.

Grendel,
If people are really that feeble-minded, then that is design flaw by the maker. We have free will in the face of the desires of the omnipotent creator but not in the face of Bernstein-Rein?

I don't buy it.

Consumers rejected new coke. If we can put that down, we can say no to the thong song.

Grendel,
With all due respect, there couldn't be a less important or less relevant point. This is not about the nature of humor. I know Imus meant to make a "joke", but he wasn't trying to deconstruct power structures he was babbling like the moron that he is. This wasn't a social commentary joke. This was a lame 5th grade mean spirited lauging at you not with you joke.

We're not talking about Mel Brooks or Lenny Bruce here. We're talking about a crusty old dullard in a powdered wig.

With all due respect right back at you Leadbelly, I disagree. First of all Imus' one joke at the expense of a group of women radiates out to an entire group larger group that has had a long history of being devalued at the larger culture.

It is not conscious social commentary--satire--that would be one thing--rather it is a vent--for individuals who have to work daily keep their racist, sexist, and other bigotries in check. Such people perceive the world to be unfair but are muted to say anything about it according to accepted social convention.

True, Imus is not interested in deconstructed power structures here; he is only interested in his own ratings and ego. What he unwittingly engages in, however, is humor that gets its energy from the tension that is created when ideologies, values and cultures are set against each other. He exploits racial and social conflicts/powerstruggles in society for his benefit.

BTW, the quickest way to ruin any joke is to analyze why you think it is funny. However, I ask you to think of any joke that you think is funny that targets a specific group or gender and really ask yourself why you think it is funny.

Chances are you think it is funny because it hides a forbidden kernel of truth in a sugary laugh that is well just a simple joke right?--nothing serious.

Cheers

Crispee, all I'm sayin is that you're an asshole, all the time. Your post was shit. The reason I'm offended is because I have a daughter and the comment strikes me as denigrating towards women and I'm a little sensitive about that now, and I should be so fuck you. I don't think he should be fired and I don't like Al Sharpton or his envolvement but I disagree with your sweeping complete pardon of his comments. His comments didn't bother me all that much what bothers me is your and others defense of them.

Go suck a dick? Hows that for a question?

DOGMAN

He exploits racial and social conflicts/powerstruggles in society for his benefit.

See Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for examples.

"Consumers rejected new coke. If we can put that down, we can say no to the thong song."

I resent that. The thong song was nothing more than a celebration of Gods beautiful creation, amen.

DOGMAN

Grendel,
You're overanalyzing.

"why dont you just go ahead and kiss his ass"

Oh my, Bushlover...that shade of green is not attractive on you!

I don't really care why you think it was funny, but it does reinforce my perception of you as someone not worth knowing.

Posted by leadbelly at 2007-04-10 01:50 PM

I will say that is a sad opinion Lead. You start off with you don't know me or speak for me yet you end with a close minded egotistical comment. I have also been an athlete, coach, referee and a high school football scout. My area was South Central LA as well as the San Fernando Valley. Not the most white areas in Southern Cal. Our Company had a hand in roughly 100 scholarships and the families paid nothing. We had contracts with every major college nationally. So don't give me this shit about parents and my so called lack of concern for their feelings. I can assure you if they were asked, they would find many more things to be offended about than a off the cuff remark by a radio personality.

"Crispee, all I'm sayin is that you're an asshole, all the time."

You couldn't be more wrong!

Crispee is awesome!

"Crispee is awesome!"

That's right. Crispee, you go girl!

well, except for his political views. And once in awhile his sense of humor. Other than that...he's pretty cool!

lol

Grendel,
If people are really that feeble-minded, then that is design flaw by the maker. We have free will in the face of the desires of the omnipotent creator but not in the face of Bernstein-Rein?

I don't buy it.

Consumers rejected new coke. If we can put that down, we can say no to the thong song.

People rejected New Coke because it countered nearly a century of a conditioned need for old coke.

They put new coke down, but they didn't put Coke itself down. No, instead they demanded it!

If people are really that feeble-minded, then that is design flaw by the maker.

I am not sure why you wish to drag religion into this--seems like a red herring to me.

Feeble-minded? No, not when you consider that the worst and most insideous evil-- and the most difficult to resist or fight against-- is the evil that masquerades as good.

What advertiser presents the real point of a commercial--buy this so we will make money. No, it is always buy this it is good for you and you will be happy.

This the writer of Genesis knew this well when he put the first ad campaign into the mouth of the serpent

"You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


Cheers

Crispee,
Based upon the persona you present here at Drudge, I think you are full of shit.

If you did any of those activities you claim, I wish you hadn't. There are unfotunately plenty bad people involved in youth and prep sports and you sound like one of them. Stay away from kids. You are probably doing them more harm than good.

If you want to be perceived otherwise, then work on how you present yourself, not on your bogus claims.

Grendel,
I bring up religion because I am religious and I understand that I have free will. Madison avenue can't take that away from me.

Damn good to tonyroma. Your post was very informative.

Crispee, all I'm sayin is that you're an asshole, all the time. Your post was shit. The reason I'm offended is because I have a daughter and the comment strikes me as denigrating towards women and I'm a little sensitive about that now, and I should be so fuck you. I don't think he should be fired and I don't like Al Sharpton or his envolvement but I disagree with your sweeping complete pardon of his comments. His comments didn't bother me all that much what bothers me is your and others defense of them.

Go suck a dick? Hows that for a question?

DOGMAN

Posted by dogman at 2007-04-10 01:59 PM |

Ladies and gentlemen the voice of reason and his name is Dogman. Notice how he didn't bother to reference my post which means he never bothered to read it. Why? Because I am an asshole all the time according to the expert Dogman. I must say I feel sorry for your daughter if that comment by Imus sets you offas well as your righteous appearence. Yet you come back with a suck my dick. HMMM do you use that language and visual in front of your daughter? Or are you just another coward, shedding crocodile tears hiding behind your anonymity?

Keep in mind Dogshit I have been called much worse by way better than you.

If you want to be perceived otherwise, then work on how you present yourself, not on your bogus claims.



Posted by leadbelly at 2007-04-10 02:20 PM |

Coming off the heels of you don't speak for me or know me? Yet you have no problem portraying others? Do you not see the irony here Leadbelly? Of course not.If anyone is showing they are full of shit it is you. The difference between what you have done in the athletic world is you want recognition and need to be appreciated. Where I did it for the sake of loving the game and knowing I can get some of these kids a scholarship without the parents paying a dime. I made $35 a game to film and take a picture of a said athlete and write a bio for the college who requested it. We sponsored 10 combines at no charge and invited the top 100 kids in the State.

I got something else in common with you that will hopefully set you off again. I also had a family member with mental health issues and probably had it ten times worse then you ever did.

BTW I also would never have anything to do with a phony like yourself or anyboidy who needs to tell others how to act or what to like. I am proud to be an individual minded person opposite of the likes of you.

What continues to amaze me on this thread are a couple immutable facts in evidence:

1) The blacks posting here largely see Imus' transgressions being from his comments overt sexism and denegration of young women undeserving of his ascerbic tongue.

2) Many comments of what appear to be white posters seem to dwell on the injection of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson into the surrounding publicity swell as indication that black America is much too sensitive toward racial humor, nee race itself when coming from whites, while not decrying the same when it comes from blacks.

3) Lastly, many whites also appear to claim that blacks should "get over" being offended by mere language as though this is a singularly held trait endemic only to those who are black.

Grendel mentions the germane point about the position held by the one's doing the criticizing, dictating how the issue will be judged, and he has a very salient thrust with this view. However the larger point is this:

It appears all too clearly to me that those complaining the loudest are the same ones unwilling to view Imus' words as simply disgusting, crude, and ill-placed because of the people he decided to smear with his characterizations and failed attempt to illicit humor at their expense.

So, it is we blacks who ignore the injections of Jackson, Sharpton and race while asking our brother and sister citizens to do the same, but it is us who need to "lighten up"? No, in this case, as in most cases, the focus put upon the visages of Sharpton and Jackson blind far too many outside the black perspective to see when race is ancillary to the main issue at hand:

Imus was FIRST wrong because he insulted celebrated athletes, regardless of color, by implying that they were simply wayward whores, not championship runner's-up. Maybe its because Leadbelly and myself live in the skin we do and share a love of sports and competition, our response was more to the complete perversion of these women's accomplishments in doing things the right way, being proud representatives of their university and their own families before we bother to even note that the component of race indeed is a part of the mix, while not its underlying motive, in my opinion.

So if anyone truly wants to see change in how our society perceives race and justice, try first using the prism of what is proper and decent before looking to bury common respect under the patina of skin color, which shouldn't be a determinant in judging what is right and what is wrong in how we speak and view each other as human beings, not simply as members of different races or cultures.

In other words we are over it, why aren't the rest of you?

well, except for his political views. And once in awhile his sense of humor. Other than that...he's pretty cool!

lol

Posted by Lisa at 2007-04-10 02:16 PM

I like you too Bella. Be careful though you may be painted as a friend of an asshole.

Yeah, the I MAN is a shock jock whose done comments about everyone and, yeah, this was a racist comment that crossed way over the line.

Yeah, the I MAN needs to apologize and he has -- over and over and over and over again. He's going to meet with the girls from the basketball team and apologize in person.

But the guy does NOT need to be fired -- especially when it's Al Sharpton doing the screaming for him to be fired.

Did Sharpton apologize for being part of what he KNEW was a lie when Tawana Brawley, a young Black woman, accused six White men of rape and ruined their lives?

Tawana Brawley:

On Saturday, November 28, 1987, Tawana Brawley, a fifteen year old young woman was found in Dutchess County, New York incoherent and covered in dog excrement and with racist slogans and epithets written on her body with a charcoal like substance.

She told a wild story about having been gang raped by a group of white police officers, the sheer ugliness of the charge drew Al Sharpton, Alton Maddox, and C. Vernon Mason as advisors like a dead carcass draws buzzards.

...
For his part, Sharpton carried on the prosecution of "white" society through innuendo and friendly press connections. That so much was made of a case with so little evidence speaks volumes about the irresponsibility of the press since even the alleged victim, Tawana, refused to testify in the judicial proceedings.

The official Grand Jury conclusion:

"Based upon all of the evidence that has been presented to the Grand Jury, we conclude that Tawana Brawley was not the victim of a forcible sexual assault by multiple assailants over a four-day period. There is no evidence that any sexual assault occurred. Tawana Brawley had significant contact with Apartment l9A Carnaby Drive at some time during her four-day disappearance. All of the items and instrumentalities necessary to account for the state of her appearance on Saturday, November 28, were present inside of or in the immediate vicinity of Apartment l9A. The Grand Jury concludes that Tawana Brawley was present in or near Apt. 19A when put into the condition in which she was discovered.

The Grand Jury further concludes there is nothing in regard to Tawana Brawley's appearance on November 28 that is inconsistent with this condition having been self-inflicted."

Not content to let the racial animus or photo opportunities die down, Sharpton made a fatal tactical decision.

Taking every opportunity to continue to claim that Brawley was indeed raped by white policemen he now crossed the line to the land of lunacy. He charged that the Duchess County Assistant District Attorney, Steve Pagones, had actually participated in Tawana's fanciful rape.

Grendel,
I bring up religion because I am religious and I understand that I have free will. Madison avenue can't take that away from me.

Yes, but judicious exercise of free will requires an active mind engaged with the world around him or her--(which you no doubt have.)

Most advertising wants you to engage your free will without actively engaging your mind. It doesn't want you to analyze at all (never mind over analyze). It encourages passive acceptance. This is the nature of sinning too.

Think about it. Very few people willfully and actively commit sin. No one wakes up in the morning and says (Evil, maniacal laughter") I am going to sin today! All seven deadly ones (more laughter.)

No, people lapse into moral error out of inattention and laziness and lame justifications that only make sense when one's mind is half asleep. Indeed, when their conscience is lulled to sleep, impulses take over.

This Dante knew well when he wrote the Inferno.

Inferno:

Canto I

Midway upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.
Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say
What was this forest savage, rough, and stern,
Which in the very thought renews the fear.

I cannot well repeat how there I entered,
So full was I of slumber at the moment
In which I had abandoned the true way.


Well, this is now moving the conversation far from the topic of the thread.

We are probably more in agreement than disagreement any way.

I have enjoyed the discussion.

Cheers

"We stated openly that Steven Pagones, the assistant district attorney, did it. His lawyers say he may or may not sue us. If we're lying, sue us, so we can go into court with you and prove you did it. I'll use your show to dare them to sue us, sue us right now. We are saying Steven Pagones did it. Now if he didn't do it, why isn't he suing us?"

And sue he did, Pagones showing backbone not in evidence anywhere in the mainstream media, counterattacked with a multi-hundred million defamation suit against Sharpton, Maddox and Mason.

Although Sharpton, wisely tried to distance himself from both his own statements as well as those of his co-conspirators, all three were unapologetic to the end.

Co-defendant Mason even alleged, during his closing argument to the jury, that he believed Pagones murdered Harry Crist Jr., a police officer originally accused of raping Brawley.

Pagones' attorney, William Stanton, summed it up comparing the three erstwhile "civil rights activists" to Nazi propagandists.

"They don't care who they stepped on and who they stepped over. They destroyed lives for their own self-advancement. That's the reason they started this case."

The Grand Jury's decision was loud and unequivocal:

"We the Grand Jury of the Supreme Court, State of New York County of Dutchess Impaneled on February 29, 1988 having conducted an investigation, and based upon the preponderance of the credible and legally admissible evidence, conclude that the unsworn public allegations against Dutchess County Assistant District Attorney Steven Pagones are false, have no basis in fact and that he committed no misconduct, non-feasance or neglect in office."

In the skewed world of racialized jurisprudence, he was only awarded $345,000 in damages, a pittance for the incredible character assassination he had to endure.

FORGOT to put my 2:45 p.m. post was continued from my 2:43 P.M. post.

"I must say I feel sorry for your daughter if that comment by Imus sets you offas well as your righteous appearence."

I don't quite understand that. Why do you feel sorry for my daughter? I simply think certain people are worthy of respect. Young hard working women/girls whatever happen to be one of them. I think you should be respectful of that. I'm not talking about a single misplaced joke, I don't even care if somebody laughs at it, but your laughing is specifically and deliberately intended to elicit a reaction regardless of whos feelings it hurts. I don't care so much about that and I said so, what bothers me is that when pressed you continue to purposefully defend the practice of shitting all over good young people who are in no position to defend themselves. That's what offends me.

"Yet you come back with a suck my dick. HMMM do you use that language and visual in front of your daughter?"

No, I saved that one just for you because I try to save that sort of language for those who deserve it, but the question is would you say it in front of my daughter? Judging from your attitudes towards everyone elses I would have to assume you would.

Actually what I said was suck adick. I'd rather it not be mine.

"Keep in mind Dogshit I have been called much worse by way better than you."

I doubt it, there ain't nobody better than me bud, just ask your wife.

DOGMAN

CC...

Why should Sharpton give up anything over what Imus did to himself? Read my 2.40 post please. Sharpton is irrelevant to what Imus did and so is Jackson. They are only part of this issue because they're lightening rods whenever any issue tinged in race comes out into the open. Imus' listeners and advertisers should be his judges, not those who don't listen to him. But what he said about others for the sake of humor was wrong, and EVERYONE is allowed to comment on their feelings over that issue without being tarred because Jackson and Sharpton feel the same way for completely different reasons in part.

Coming off . . . blah blah blah . . . individual minded person opposite of the likes of you.

Posted by crispee_oc at 2007-04-10 02:39 PM

Put a cork in it you old woman. This can't be the first time someone has genuinelly disliked you? Get over it and move on.

I doubt it, there ain't nobody better than me bud, just ask your wife.

DOGMAN

Posted by dogman at 2007-04-10 02:51 PM |

Like I said Dogshit crocodile tears. You are offended because of what Imus said was dertrimental to women. Yet you come back with a comment about somebodies wife? I guess in your pathetic, fanatsy world that is not detrimental to women? You need to change your name to DOGSHIT because you seem to eat your words. What a fucking clown.

Put a cork in it you old woman. This can't be the first time someone has genuinelly disliked you? Get over it and move on.

Posted by leadbelly at 2007-04-10 02:55 PM |

Old woman? Whoa that hurts Lead. I think I am going to cry. Those that have genuinely disliked me had a reason. Unlike some little hypocrite like you Lead who finds it necessary to be liked and get attention from like minded dummies. Since you love to post what others should feel and how to act or when to be offended or outraged, why don't you write a book on how to be like Leadbelly?

GRIM

Sharpton has been on every tv show since screaming for the firing of Imus.

Remember the Central Park jogger? The young woman jogger rapped and beaten toa pulp and left for dead by six young black guys out doing what they called wilding? Up until that time the press did not print this woman's name to save her embarrassment of the terrible ordeal she went thru.

but it was SHARPTON or organized and brought a group with him to the courthouse steps while the trial was being held of the 6 black guys who were found guilty of almost killing this woman and Sharpton and the mob with him chanted THE WOMAN'S REAL NAME so now everyone in the world knew her identity, Sharpton and the group he brought to the courthouse steps screamed "SHE'S A WHORE" (while she was still comatose in the hospital) and "Her boyfriend did it" .

Sharpton can 'think' whatever he wants to but he's doing a lot more than 'thinking' -- he's out in the media playing the race card and SCREAMING for Imus to be fired, and if ANYBODY should apologize for his racist, evil remarks and criminal accusations that were lies (Brawley case)and his disgusting actions against that poor Central Park woman jogger then it's Sharpton.

When is Sharpton going to shut up? he's been leading this call for Imus to be fired and Sharpton is one of the biggest racists ever.

whoops == 'rapped' should have been 'raped'

Like I've said fifty fuckin times now you dense fuck, what Imus said didn't bother that much and I think his apology will suffice, what offends me is your fuckin attitude.

"Yet you come back with a comment about somebodies wife? I guess in your pathetic, fanatsy world that is not detrimental to women?"

Locker room humor and language doesn't bother me in the least you twit, I just don't think it should be publicly directed at young women. What is it about that you can't understand?

You're always ranting about people misjudging your beleifs but you have completely missed the point of my posts to such an extent I would think it was on purpose if I didn't already know you're just a retard who is only reading little bits and peices of my comments.

So you can make a straw man to knock down, Crispeedick.

DOGMAN

Excellent post, Grendel. And it's not just Madison Avenue pushing consumerism as a religion. Ever see the mini grocery carts for kids labeled "shopper in training"?

Yes, I have. It seems it is never too early to create the consumer mindset.

Consider how much consumerist social programing is involved in toys, especially for girls.

--Board games based on going to the mall and shopping, dolls that require the purchase of fashion accessories in order to be "complete."

--Shopping malls in the seventies were designed and promoted as gathering places for young people.

--Even many video games today require the "protagonist" to run through mazes (aisles) and collect objects.



An aside--sometimes I tease my son and his friend who likes to play video games by stating that they are all usually variations on the same idea. We almost have the exchange down to a comedy routine.

Me walking into the den.

"So boys, what are you doing today?"

"Oh, we are just running through mazes and killing things."



Cheers

"Old woman? Whoa that hurts Lead. I think I am going to cry."

A little ham handed sarcasm, getting a little weak at the knees are we now crispeedick?

DOGMAN

you know i'm offended by most rap music and hip hop lyrics -i've often wondered why we as a people are only upset when things we say to ourselves are said by whites(or any other not us)-if whites as some say have stolen so much from us why should be shocked when repeat our bullshit
jasman

Crispeedick?

Wow. Another "great" mind.

Like I've said fifty fuckin times now you dense fuck, what Imus said didn't bother that much...

DOGMAN

Let's see how many posts Dogman can eat his own shit?

It is not acceptable among blacks to be called nappy headed hos. MTV is the only place you'll find that shit.(Not offended by Imus comment)

DOGMAN

You been buyin it from em or something? How the fuck do you know if thy're hos or not. And what do you expect them to do, go out on the court with perfectly quafed beehives like their going to prom or something.( Not offended by Imus comment)

DOGMAN

You're right Crispee, why don't you send all their parents a letter saying you think they all sell their pussys for beer money. Ask if they've been aids tested too. It's the least you can do.( Not offended by Imus comment)

DOGMAN

The reason I'm offended is because I have a daughter and the comment strikes me as denigrating towards women and I'm a little sensitive about that now, and I should be so fuck you.

Is this fucking moron offended or not?

"As much as some people here want to deny it, everyone knows that if a Black host had said the exact same thing, we never would have even heard about it.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole"


You already know I disagree but either way I still think it was outa line.

It doesn't matter to me if somebody else says it out loud.

But maybe he apologized just because he felt a little bad, like Leadbelly said, he don't need the money.

DOGMAN

Crispeedick?

Wow. Another "great" mind.

Posted by wisgod


Well I was just responding to Dogshit, I had to come up with something equally banal.

DOGMAN

I dont want to hear anything from sharpton or jackson on anything. These two pieces of trash are out to suck of the purse of white society by looking for blackmail opportunities. They are well know pimps who deserve to be sent to guantanamo. If you were offended by Imus, wekk than have a nice day. Until I see you picketing best buy about ghetto song lyrics, I will believe that you are just blow hards. enjoy the day

You already know I disagree but either way I still think it was outa line.

It doesn't matter to me if somebody else says it out loud.

But maybe he apologized just because he felt a little bad, like Leadbelly said, he don't need the money.


If you think it was out of line, don't listen.

I won't question that it would have bothered you if said by a Black host, you seem sincere, I will question whether you would have heard it at all.

If he actually felt bad about it, he would have apologized right away. Imus was JOKING... he's a Shock Jock...

You think the best part about being heard by millions everyday is the money? Imus could have retired years ago... He's filthy stinking rich...

It would have been very refreshing for him to do what Stern suggested... its for that reason that Stern and O&A and a few others are very popular... because when the PC police come a calling, they tell them to fuck off.

Rob,
As much as some people here want to deny it, everyone knows that if a Black host had said the exact same thing, we never would have even heard about it.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2007-04-10 03:19 PM |

Imus HAS said similar and worse about other black people before and not caught hell. The differnce is that he said these kinds of things about black people no one cares about. Someone in Imus' position can make black jokes about anonymous hookers, or about other journalists who are thorns in his side, or about crack smoking mayors of DC. What he (and the same would go for a black host in his position - regarldess of what Opie and Anthony claim) can't get away with is making black/sexist jokes about a nice group of girls.

It doesn't serve your agenda to acknowledge the difference.

It would have been very refreshing for him to do what Stern suggested... its for that reason that Stern and O&A and a few others are very popular... because when the PC police come a calling, they tell them to fuck off.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2007-04-10 03:33 PM

Imus has positioned himself differently from O&A and Stern. Imus gets serving national poloiticians as sutdio guests, not porn stars and retarded hookers. Imus wants to keep one foot in the "shock jock" arena and one foot in the journalism arena. That's fine and his choice for his show, but to stay in the good graces of the journalistic world he has to maintain a certain level of decorum. He can't have an orgasmatron in the studio and he can't light his farts on fire and he can't make inappropriate racial and sexual comments about media darling collegiate athletic figures.

Frankly, O&A probably could have made this comment and gotten away with a it. Stern certainly could have (even if Robin was on vacation) It would have been offensive to some, but disregarded as poor taste humor within their genre. Imus has aspired to be something else. He wants a place at the table with news broadcasters and commentators, so he has to stay within certain polite boundaries.

Crispydick, speaking of morons what part of "that much" are you having trouble with. You should just change your handle taw strawmankiller, if you can even figure out what that means.

Read this slow and maybe it'll sink in to that reptilian brain of yours.

Imuses comments don't bother me that much. I thought the apology should have been enough for everybody. You are more offensive than him.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I hold whatever ideological belief you wish to assign to me.

If you can't digest that then I'm at a loss.

It is nice however to see that you've resorted to simply reposting all my comments in the hopes that someone will be able to decipher what the fuck you're point is other than the one on top of your head of course.

DOGMAN

Imus HAS said similar and worse about other black people before and not caught hell. The differnce is that he said these kinds of things about black people no one cares about.

Yes he has, and people have been fired before and there has been outrage before...

And it wasn't people that nobody cares about... the Williams sisters and the Knicks are harldy uncared for.

The denial of a double standard is laughable.

nappy headed ho's...that's funny

Most humor is at the expense of someone.

He should have said to Sharpton:

"Oh nigga pleaze............."

Seriously though, I thought his apology was better than most you hear. The suspension was MORE than adequate punishment.

If there are enough people out there that don't agree with that then it will be reflected in his ratings and he will ultimatly go off the air.

I'm so tired of the 'race' issue being weilded as a weapon. The whole issue has been bastardized into a tool to direct harm on others.

Dr. Savage made a good point on his show yesterday. Given a list of words think of the VERY FIRST thing that comes to mind:

Jew.......

Polish.........

Italian.........

Mexican........

American..........

Chinese..........

Muslim..........

African.........

Anyway, you see my point. Most people are, if not racist, then prone to gross generalizations concerning other races, ethnic backgrounds and religions.

Its why the Sopranos is so famous. Would everyone be watching if Tony was a CPA for a tire company making 40 grand a year while rasing a good family, folowing the American dream and not breaking any laws?

NO, instead they all wear undershirts, are fat, with gravy stains on their shirts and large crosses hanging around their necks.

People are WAY to sensitive in this world these days.

"If you think it was out of line, don't listen."

I don't, it's just news, something to discuss with you guys.

By the way, I only think the apology should be directed to the specific athletes, and only if they expressed some desire to have one. I never thought it was any of the PC polices buiseness, but for me that's all beside the point.


DOGMAN

He wants a place at the table with news broadcasters and commentators, so he has to stay within certain polite boundaries.


Bull, the answer if that is the case is that he loses that part of his audience... Imus broke no law, committed no FCC violation... he made a joke that offended some people, that joke happened to be directed at the girls of Rutgers who are mostly black so its a big deal...

The girls of the other team were insulted as well, how come nobody cares about them being called "wannabees?"

Dave Chappelle is god.

"If you think it was out of line, don't listen."

I don't, it's just news, something to discuss with you guys.

That was more of a general statement rather than a specific directive...

I don't listen to him either, but more because he's not funny enough.

Imuses comments don't bother me that much. I thought the apology should have been enough for everybody. You are more offensive than him.

DOGMAN

Because I posted a racist comment? No that can't be it. Because I wrote something offensive to women? Nope wrong again. If I remeber right all I posted was I thought it was a funny joke. But you are an idiot and I am hopeful that YOU are offended. Of course you shed crocodile tears so it is hard to guage what offends you.

His brand of racism reaffirms that sense of privilege and entitlement that the beleaguered white men of his target demographic love to feel.

Tony,

Imus said something yesterday I never knew: he has gotten tons of hate mail, including death threats, for having people like Harold Ford Jr. and various black singers and groups (he listed a few but the only one I know of is Aaron Neville) on his show. The idea that all he does is pander to "beleaguered white men in his target demographic" isn't true. He has talked on his show about the need to increase funding for sickle cell, not exactly a topic designed to pander to his target audience.

"Crispeedick?"

A Chinese delicacy.

Usually served in a warm, soft shell taco, with a special, secret sauce.

Accompanied by chocolate starfish, for dessert.

Hans

"Because I posted a racist comment? No that can't be it. Because I wrote something offensive to women?"

Crsipyboy, I already told you.

You can go now, this is getting boring.

DOGMAN

Rob,

I was referring to his almost daily ranting about some or other annonymous dimwits that have drawn his ire, not his attacks on celbrities.

The Williams sisters incident obviously falls into the same category as this one. Those are black people that the press gives a crap about. But when Imus goes off on acknowledged degenerates, or anonymous social constructs (Dumpster mothers, or welfare queens, or poverty pimps or whomever) using racial insults there has not been an issue. It's when he has attacked someone "who matters" that there has been brouhaha.

You have admittedly not listened to his show, and are cherry picking highly publicised incidents (from WIKI?) as evidence of a strawman that I have not argued. My point is that he uses these images and comments as part of his schtick ALL THE TIME, but hasn't gotten in trouble for directing them at individuals of no media significance. Imus making racial jokes is not taboo. He "gets away with it" all the time. What is taboo is Imus doing it to nice people.

Coach Tony got a game plan...

"Vanessa Williams (Power Forward)

Beyonce (Small Forward)

Tyra Banks (Center)

Fergie (Shooting Guard)

Kerry Washington (Point Guard)

Vivica Fox (Flex Forward)..."

"Now I dare anyone to say that they wouldn't want to post up against this squad for a little one-on-one....."

Coach Tony! Coach Tony!

* Spud is jump up and down on the sidelines here *

Put Spud IN!

"Post Up"?

Just the thought of that (Wet) Dream Team has got Spuds "post" in the "upright position", as they say!

Woo Hoo! :>P

Be Well.

PS: Spud would ask how "flexible" Vivica A Fox is but Spud does not want to appear too "forward".

That Spud! ;>)

"Imus has said he intends to include a black regular on his show and to increase the number of interviews he does with prominent blacks in the future. (TO SAVE HIS JOB) He also said he wants to do more segments addressing racism. (TO SAVE HIS JOB) He said he'd like to learn something and work to become a better person while at the same time helping his audience learn about racial issues. (TO SAVE HIS JOB) If he actually does that, it could be a good thing for everyone. If he gets fired, well, that will be that. He will be punished, but I'm not sure how it will improve race relations in this country.

Posted by Gal_Tuesday

sorry Gal_Tuesday... just using your post to make the point.

I just love watching you all scramble around in an effort to balance being PC with not wanting to appear "critical".

You can't have it both ways. If your kid talked like that you'd punish him... wouldn't you? Well, wouldn't you?

I'm tired of people being so "tolerant". He's always been a bozo. Always will be. He's got a history of these sorts of racist comments. Why not just call him what he is, a RACIST !!

It's incredible who it is gets a pass on this kind of stuff, and who doesn't.

Crsipyboy, I already told you.

You can go now, this is getting boring.

DOGMAN

Posted by dogman at 2007-04-10 04:05 PM

In other words like you can't find any psot to back up your stupid claim I wrote something more offensive than Imus? You are right this is boring and you have to be full of all the shit you have had to eat.

My point is that he uses these images and comments as part of his schtick ALL THE TIME, but hasn't gotten in trouble for directing them at individuals of no media significance.

And my point is that a Black host could say the exact same things about people of significance or insignificance and we wouldn't be here today.

So, it is we blacks who ignore the injections of Jackson, Sharpton and race while asking our brother and sister citizens to do the same, but it is us who need to "lighten up"? No, in this case, as in most cases, the focus put upon the visages of Sharpton and Jackson blind far too many outside the black perspective to see when race is ancillary to the main issue at hand:

So, does this mean most blacks won't be writing to MS/NBC asking for Imus to be fired and that they won't be boycotting the products of sponsors of his show? I've seen a number of blacks speaking on this issue besides Al and Jesse, and the only one who said Imus shouldn't be fired was Armstrong Williams. Everyone of them also indicated the main issue was racism. I don't think I heard any of them (granted all but one where men) mention sexism or common decency.

Bull, the answer if that is the case is that he loses that part of his audience... Imus broke no law, committed no FCC violation... he made a joke that offended some people, that joke happened to be directed at the girls of Rutgers who are mostly black so its a big deal...

The girls of the other team were insulted as well, how come nobody cares about them being called "wannabees?"

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2007-04-10 03:53 PM

Bull? Bull what? Bull Imus isn't trying to be different and move in "higher" circles than Stern and O&A? He lost his "shock jock" audience to Stern decades ago. He is now a news presenter and commnetator for baby boomers. His "hook" is that he's and inside critic of the media establishment, but he's still "inside." He can't stay inside if he chases Stern down the porn star route. They are in COMPLETELY different genre's at this point. As with the discussion yesterday, it's starting to seem like you aren't so much obtuse as you are deceitfully pushing an agenda.

The idea that all he does is pander to "beleaguered white men in his target demographic" isn't true. He has talked on his show about the need to increase funding for sickle cell, not exactly a topic designed to pander to his target audience.

Gal...

While I've learned more about Imus than I ever cared to, and while I respect his work in helping those in need, the very fact that he receives death threats and hate mail tells you EXACTLY who some of his audience is comprised of!

While it may not be his intention, unless he speaks out and tells those bigots and idiots in his audience that their views and responses are NOT WELCOME in his forum, he is doing nothing but ignoring the evidence put right before his own face in failing to publically address that which he finds abhorent and not representative of him or his show.

This is the dialog I see him starting as he seeks to make ammends for his transgressions, but should it have taken this for him to bring this to the public's attention?

"Crispeedick?"

A Chinese delicacy.

Usually served in a warm, soft shell taco, with a special, secret sauce.

Accompanied by chocolate starfish, for dessert.

Hans

Bull that he has to stay within "polite boundaries." Because the boundaries change depending on the color of ones skin.

No Crispyboy the issue here is reading comprehension. I'm not gonna repeat myself simply because you're unable to comprehend what is written in my posts.

You win dummy.

Now I'm done, if you are then we can both get on with our lives.

DOGMAN

And my point is that a Black host could say the exact same things about people of significance or insignificance and we wouldn't be here today.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2007-04-10 04:14 PM |

And my point is that I think you are wrong. A black guest host on Imus' show making this comment would get "different shit" from the black community - they would get shit about the western beauty standard and appreciating black women. They would get shit for being "a sell out" and "self hatred," but yeah they would still get shit. Would it be a national news story? During the week the women's NCAA tournament concluded? Yes I think it would be. Would we be here discussing it? Maybe not, Maybe you only care because it's a white guy in trouble?

We're going in circles from yesterday.

If you have nothing new to say lets move on.

Now I'm done, if you are then we can both get on with our lives.

DOGMAN

Posted by dogman at 2007-04-10 04:22 PM

No you are done becasue you probably realized what a asshole you have been. Just like the Obama post sometime back. I wrote if anyone thinks the south would vote for someone named Obama. You came back with your righteous whining, and posted how offended you were and accused me of being all that is wrong with America because I had the nerve to ask such a thing. Again crocodile tears.

While I've learned more about Imus than I ever cared to, and while I respect his work in helping those in need, the very fact that he receives death threats and hate mail tells you EXACTLY who some of his audience is comprised of!

But that could be said of many venues. Even this blog. Racists and haters are out there for sure.

While it may not be his intention, unless he speaks out and tells those bigots and idiots in his audience that their views and responses are NOT WELCOME in his forum, he is doing nothing but ignoring the evidence put right before his own face in failing to publically address that which he finds abhorent and not representative of him or his show.

He does that. Maybe not directly (I don't know) but definitely indirectly by having those blacks on his show again and again over a period of years. There is no greater supporter of Harold Ford Jr. than Don Imus. Imus supported Ford when he was in the House and hasn't stopped since. He is quite vocal about how much he likes and respects the guy. If that isn't a poke in the eye and the death threat senders, I don't know what is.

Bull that he has to stay within "polite boundaries." Because the boundaries change depending on the color of ones skin.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole


The point is is that attacking "nice people" changes his persona and the flavor of his show (it's not intended to be quite as over the top as Stern, which is probably why you don't find it funny) anyway, point is Stern's show and the like are held to a slightly different standard, they have a different audience.

DOGMAN

So, does this mean most blacks won't be writing to MS/NBC asking for Imus to be fired and that they won't be boycotting the products of sponsors of his show? I've seen a number of blacks speaking on this issue besides Al and Jesse, and the only one who said Imus shouldn't be fired was Armstrong Williams. Everyone of them also indicated the main issue was racism. I don't think I heard any of them (granted all but one where men) mention sexism or common decency.

And this is "drinking the kool-aide" in the same way that Bushbots do. Have you not understood the point that Leadbelly and myself have been making for the last two days? By making it about racism, the speakers you refer to are EMPOWERED by the MSM to place their own perspective upon the situation.

I have never felt Imus was trying to be racist, he was trying to be sexist and a condesending cad! You've made this clear by explaining how he uses the term "ho's" without reference to race. So how can it be racial if his intent wasn't racial? He used "nappy" because to his eye, that described what he saw through his worldview, not that of someone intentionally trying to inject racism into an comment based upon personal observation.

While so many continue to argue that race is the driving factor of this story, it never should have been the foundational factor of it. The fact that so many both black and white refuse to view it as anything but racial or reinforces my belief that those matching this description should question their own ability to move beyond race instead of fueling a needless fire pitting one race against another where BOTH sides lose.

Race pushers of all colors and stripes: GET OVER YOURSELVES! You are that which you rail about! No one's outrage should be based upon race, it should be based upon acceptable and unacceptable dialog by public people in positions of power and influence criticising others that they don't even know and certainly don't respect.

Both sides are guilty and both are pushing their own agenda, while the real issue goes largely ignored except by a few of us. I want both sides to cease and desist!

Bull that he has to stay within "polite boundaries." Because the boundaries change depending on the color of ones skin.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2007-04-10 04:17 PM |

Al Roker has to stay within the same boundaries. Katie Couric has to stay in the same boundaries. Imus is the craky, abrasive, caustic "real person" working amongst the plastic talking heads of the broadcast journalism business. That's the underlying joke of his show. He's not a shock jock. Hasn't been for almost 20 years.

"Look at the little monkey run!"
Was he fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

"Chocolate city"
Was he fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

"recycled white trash." & "that nigger whore turning tricks in City Hall."
Was he fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

"a bunch of dirty white men" Was she fired? Called to resign? Called to apologize?

This is the dialog I see him starting as he seeks to make ammends for his transgressions, but should it have taken this for him to bring this to the public's attention?

No, it probably shouldn't have. I guess he is like the rest of us: he's a work in progress. Frankly, I think as a nation we have tried to ignore race issues for sometime. Every once in a while they come to the surface with something like the Rodney King beating or the Reginald Denning beating, and we all know there is a problem that isn't being addressed. So, I don't just hold Imus responsible for what isn't being dealt with. He could have been more of a leader in this area, and maybe now he will be.

"You came back with your righteous whining, and posted how offended you were and accused me of being all that is wrong with America because I had the nerve to ask such a thing. Again crocodile tears."

Yes, and what we all know now about your learning disability informs us about how accurate a dipiction of my comment you portray, or if it was even mine for that matter.

So all this anxiety from you is because you think I'm insincere? Not that you have any basis whatsoever for that claim but it would be convenient for you to question my sincerity if my comments made you question your own character.

But really, you win, go away.

DOGMAN

The only nappy headed ho's I'm seeing are Sharpton and Jackson.

Yes, and what we all know now about your learning disability informs us about how accurate a dipiction of my comment you portray, or if it was even mine for that matter.

DOGMAN

Just like your spelling ability? You know for a fact it was you or you would have found something otherwise. I just love how you couldn't possibly admit being wrong and resort to using my perception of you as an out.

The only nappy headed ho's I'm seeing are Sharpton and Jackson.

Now come on Brent, Al's hair is tight, not nappy....

And this is "drinking the kool-aide" in the same way that Bushbots do. Have you not understood the point that Leadbelly and myself have been making for the last two days? By making it about racism, the speakers you refer to are EMPOWERED by the MSM to place their own perspective upon the situation.

Tony,

I'm not drinking any koolaid; I'm merely watching TV. I hear what you and Lead are saying; I'm just telling you what the black pundits, politicans, journalists, ministers I've heard on TV say. I agree with you--this isn't about race. If this had been the US women's soccer team, he would have called them dykes instead of hos. One of the main reasons I have been engaging in this debate is because I think the racial aspect of this is being trumped up (IOW, I agree with you). I think real racism exists in this country, but I don't think this is the worst example of it.

As Bill Maher said on Imus this morning, if this is the the only thing blacks like Sharpton and Jackson have to get worked up about, then race relations in this country must be better than I thought.

LET'S say a word about the girls. The young women with the musical names. Kia and Epiphanny and Matee and Essence. Katie and Dee Dee and Rashidat and Myia and Brittany and Heather.

The Scarlet Knights of Rutgers University had an improbable season, dropping four of their first seven games, yet ending up in the N.C.A.A. women's basketball championship game. None of them were seniors. Five were freshmen.

In the end, they were stopped only by Tennessee's Lady Vols, who clinched their seventh national championship by ending Rutgers' Cinderella run last week, 59-46. That's the kind of story we love, right? A bunch of teenagers from Newark, Cincinnati, Brooklyn and, yes, Ogden, Utah, defying expectations. It's what explodes so many March Madness office pools.

But not, apparently, for the girls. For all their grit, hard work and courage, the Rutgers girls got branded "nappy-headed ho's" -- a shockingly concise sexual and racial insult, tossed out in a volley of male camaraderie by a group of amused, middle-aged white men. The "joke" -- as delivered and later recanted -- by the radio and television personality Don Imus failed one big test: it was not funny.

The serial apologies of Mr. Imus, who was suspended yesterday by both NBC News and CBS Radio for his remarks, have failed another test. The sincerity seems forced and suspect because he's done some version of this several times before.

I know, because he apparently did it to me.

I was covering the White House for this newspaper in 1993, when Mr. Imus's producer began calling to invite me on his radio program. I didn't return his calls. I had my hands plenty full covering Bill Clinton.

Soon enough, the phone calls stopped. Then quizzical colleagues began asking me why Don Imus seemed to have a problem with me. I had no idea what they were talking about because I never listened to the program.

It was not until five years later, when Mr. Imus and I were both working under the NBC News umbrella -- his show was being simulcast on MSNBC; I was a Capitol Hill correspondent for the network -- that I discovered why people were asking those questions. It took Lars-Erik Nelson, a columnist for The New York Daily News, to finally explain what no one else had wanted to repeat.

"Isn't The Times wonderful," Mr. Nelson quoted Mr. Imus as saying on the radio. "It lets the cleaning lady cover the White House."

I was taken aback but not outraged. I'd certainly been called worse and indeed jumped at the chance to use the old insult to explain to my NBC bosses why I did not want to appear on the Imus show.

I haven't talked about this much. I'm a big girl. I have a platform. I have a voice. I've been working in journalism long enough that there is little danger that a radio D.J.'s juvenile slap will define or scar me. Yesterday, he began telling people he never actually called me a cleaning lady. Whatever. This is not about me.

What a bunch of bullshit. Imus is a comedian and he made a joke, sort of. He expressed him self expressively. He actually respects the women a lot more than many who are now calling for his head and anyone who actually listens to his show knows that.

Another chance for uptight PC-ers to get all huffy and puffy and try to exploit a situation for their own use. That's all it is.

I am, however, deeply disappointed in Imus for capitulating! He doesn't regret what he said, nor should he.

:-P

Every time a young black girl shyly approaches me for an autograph or writes or calls or stops me on the street to ask how she can become a journalist, I feel an enormous responsibility. It's more than simply being a role model. I know I have to be a voice for them as well.

So here's what this voice has to say for people who cannot grasp the notion of picking on people their own size: This country will only flourish once we consistently learn to applaud and encourage the young people who have to work harder just to achieve balance on the unequal playing field.

Let's see if we can manage to build them up and reward them, rather than opting for the cheapest, easiest, most despicable shots.

I can't think of a person with more personal right to speak out on this topic. Words have consequences whether they're exacted now or often later. One can never un-say that which was best left unsaid to begin with.

"Just like your spelling ability? You know for a fact it was you or you would have found something otherwise. I just love how you couldn't possibly admit being wrong and resort to using my perception of you as an out.


Posted by crispee_oc"

Huh? what did that mean? You're like the real life version of dumb and dumber engaged in a conversation with yourself. I have such a vague recolection of the exchange that I'm not even sure I was involved, why on earth would I try to defend the position you assigned me.

How's my spelling on that one?

Rob_The_A_Hole's first rule of Drudge flame wars: He who resorts to critisizing his oponents spelling first knows he lost.

Good bye.

DOGMAN

It is about the Rutgers Scarlet Knights. That game had to be the biggest moment of their lives, and the outcome the biggest disappointment. They are not old enough, or established enough, to have built up the sort of carapace many women I know -- black women in particular -- develop to guard themselves against casual insult.

Once you're a grown up, no one can insult you without your permission? Well, they can try, but you don't have to take the bait. My hope is that the women of the Rutgers basketball team have such a strong sense of themselves, that they don't give a a damn what Imus or anybody else who doesn't know them says about them.

Bellaspapa...

You just don't understand why Imus is in trouble, do you? It isn't as much what he said as whom he said it against! Those girls, their fans, their friends and parents weren't deserving of the "joke" served up by Imus. He picked on people deserving praise, not ridicule for their accomplishments.

This isn't PC, its called humanity, and respecting the accomplishments and achievements of others, not tearing them down for tawdry laughs from callous talkers and listeners.

Why weren't they deserving of it?

Do they not perform on a "public stage"?

He fucked up and apologized.

Get over yourselves.

Huh? what did that mean? You're like the real life version of dumb and dumber engaged in a conversation with yourself. I have such a vague recolection of the exchange that I'm not even sure I was involved, why on earth would I try to defend the position you assigned me.

How's my spelling on that one?

As pathetic as your parental skills. What didn't get through that thick skull of yours is the fact that if you are stupid enough to question somebodies reading skills the least you can do is make sure you don't make errors. Not that you need any help looking foolish. How many good bye's is that?

By the way, before this "incident" how many of these self righteous pricks even listened to Imus, or even knew who he was?

Gal...

This story is now international. How can anyone expect these young women to not be affected by the blowback? Hopefully they will use it as fuel to further their ambitions both personally and team-related.

They still didn't deserve to be the butt of a joke on the Imus show for how he perceived they looked. One can have tact and still be funny. It is up to us to set the boundaries for decency in our society, and it appears that Imus crossed the line, even admitting such himself. I don't understand why so many continue to defend him without recognizing precisely why he was wrong, and it shouldn't have anything to do with race at all.

Tony... I think maybe they should cut him some slack. I mean it ain't like they never mispoke or made a mistake.

Why weren't they deserving of it?

What did they do to deserve a derogatory comment from Imus?

Oh, excuse me. How dare they have the audacity to cross his eyes as they played on tv? How could I be so dense not to understand that Americans should always make fun when other Americans seek to achieve success at the highest level of their sports.

Get over yourself and your myopic, self-centered viewpoint.

A society of Victims.

How sad.

GAL

One of the team spoke today on tv and presented herself very well. They all looked very nice in their team picture. (I had mentally pictured a 'roughe/tougher' looking group from all that I had been hearing about them and the remarks made (tattoos, etc.) but they weren't. Imus is suppose to be going over to speak to these girls personally but I don't know when.

Imus was definitely wrong in his remark and he took away from these girls what should have been a championship moment for them and thrust them in the middle of this mess. Imus should use his 2 week suspension from his radio show to personally take all those girls on the team with him for a two-week, ALL-expenses paid vacation to Hawaii.

Brent...

I hope you caught my exclusion of JJ and my non-defense of your "ho's" comment. On that score I color you well within the bounds of common sense in assessing the irrelevance of both men and to those always standing to point fingers at them while never speaking out about the same wrongs that don't cross their publicity-seeking screens, bursting into the national consciousness.

In regard to Imus, I'm never asked nor demanded his head. It should be up to his audience and sponsors whether or not they want to continue to support his show, not critics who don't listen to him in the first place.

How can anyone expect these young women to not be affected by the blowback? Hopefully they will use it as fuel to further their ambitions both personally and team-related.

I didn't say expect, I said hope--as you did. One thing my mamma didn't teach me, but I learned eventually: an insult almost always tells you more about the person making it than it does about the person who is the object of it. I think that is a useful lesson for anyone to learn, but, yes, words can hurt.

I think it is good that the women have agreed to meet with Imus. It is easier to insult people you don't know. I hope he takes his wife with him. Diedre was a track star in college and is no shrinking violet. I think it could be a learning experience for them, and I pray it will be a healing experience for the team.

"How can anyone expect these young women to not be affected by the blowback?"

Blowback? No such thing as bad press...

They have an opportunity to prove they deserve the accolades many seem to be throwing their direction. They can take it in stride, stay above the fray and let the situation become a standard on how do deal with somebody else's stupidty..

Or not...

Ok Tony... I don't care for the long winded post. I don't care for Imus, but think this whole outrage is bogus. I fully understand that there is a racial injustice/problem in this country. I just think it's ridiculous to place it at the feet of Imus. Who is a jackass in my opinion... which means nothing.

" like you too Bella. Be careful though you may be painted as a friend of an asshole."

I've been painted much worse than being a friend of yours, Crispee.

This would be a fate I could easily handle.

....speaking of victims.

I've been painted much worse than being a friend of yours, Crispee.

This would be a fate I could easily handle.


Posted by Lisa at 2007-04-10 05:30 PM |

Thanks Lisa. I am not sure how to take a compliment here. Since there are so few handed out to anyone on the right.

I fully understand that there is a racial injustice/problem in this country.

As do I because I live it, personally at times. I have been saying that race shouldn't have mattered in whom Imus spoke condesendingly about. Only the fact that he tried to use outstanding, successful young women to make a crack about their hair and promiscuity should be the reason he finds himself in trouble, not because of those forcefully pimping race as the most damning factor.

It wasn't, common decency was the most damning factor or lack thereof.

Awww....what's the matter, Itsme??

The crabs a little worse today?

Well, that'll learn ya.

There are very few compliments handed out by anyone here, Crispee.

And..your welcome.

Tony said...

It wasn't, common decency was the most damning factor or lack thereof.

I might agree with you there... but I haven't seen that kind of decency since the 60's. So why now?

And..your welcome.

Posted by Lisa at 2007-04-10 05:43 PM

This may sound lame, but you are one of the very few on the left I would take a bullet for or back you if needed.

Not at all. Tony is pretty much a self absorbed sack of bullshit.

And your pretty much the same dumbass as always.

"This may sound lame, but you are one of the very few on the left I would take a bullet for or back you if needed."

Awwww...what an angel!!

And it's not lame. I feel the same about you!

BTW...where's my supper?!

lol

BTW...where's my supper?!

lol

Posted by Lisa at 2007-04-10 05:51 PM |

Just need the Fed Ex Center address and I can ship some overnight.

Bellaspapa...

You just don't understand why Imus is in trouble, do you? It isn't as much what he said as whom he said it against! Those girls, their fans, their friends and parents weren't deserving of the "joke" served up by Imus.
Posted by tonyroma at 2007-04-10 05:06 PM

I don't see it that way. Imus was praising them. He was saying how tough they are, that's all. He said it in a way that at the same time abused and ridiculed current, fashionable terminoligies.

He has a crude mouth. So the fuck do most of us at times. So what?

Also, his comment was a continuation of the line started by McGurk.

Here's the whole exchange again:

""That's some rough girls from Rutgers," Imus said. "Man, they got tattoos ..."

"Some hardcore hos," said McGurk.

"That's some nappy headed hos there, I'm going to tell you that," Imus said."

That's it. What the heck is so horrible in there?

"Not at all."

So...the crabs are the same.

You do know there's stuff to clear that right up, don't you?

Or do you just enjoy what's going on down there?

Rob_The_A_Hole's first rule of Drudge flame wars: He who resorts to critisizing his oponents spelling first knows he lost.

Good bye.

DOGMAN

Posted by dogman


I think that was actually rule #2... Rule #1 was if you call someone a Nazi you have lost. #3 was declaring victory for yourself makes you a douche.

I was just listening to the O&A replay on XM... they were having a debate with Whoopi who seems to think he should be fired... Which I laugh at because if this story were "Whoopi Calls Scarlet Knights 'Nappy-Headed Hoes'"... well this wouldn't be a story.

Oh, Crisp...you don't have to Fed Ex it....

I'll fly you here to cook for me one day!! : )

DOGMAN

I stand corrected. I just refered to those youmg ladies as ho's because I thought that was the colloguial term for ALL women in your community. After all I hear it all the time in black music. Would bitches be more appropriate?

Brent...

You'll have to go back and read many of the posts on this thread. There are numerous reasons why picking on the defenseless still remains taboo as it should. Decency towards those unable to defend themselves in the same arena or forum is still common even in our gotcha world. Take care, I'm gone for today....

Love you too, its me....

" like you too Bella. Be careful though you may be painted as a friend of an asshole."

Posted by Lisa at 2007-04-10 05:30 PM |

huh? Did I miss something there? Was there a post deleted?

Hey, I like you, too Lisa, even if I yell at you sometimes...

Bellspapa:

The feeling is mutual.

There are very, very few here who I really don't care for.

Oh, Crisp...you don't have to Fed Ex it....

I'll fly you here to cook for me one day!! : )

Posted by Lisa at 2007-04-10 05:58 PM | Reply

Wow! I am actually thinking about the offer. Can I send some sauce first and if you like it go from there? I mean if you don't get sick...

Lisa,
I will sen you an email when I get back online. The queen needs her walk and I have to battle traffic.

" I mean if you don't get sick."

Get sick?

Like you think you're not good looking?

And I don't want you to have ship something.

Don Imus looks like a Hemorrhoid with lips. And don't even think I'm going to apologize for that observation. slow news day, anybody wanna throw some barbs my way. Waiting for Beta Software to install and this hotel has a

s l o w
c o n n e c t i o n

Frankly, Tony, I thought your piece was overly written and it took too much work to find your point. Guess you said it finally, 'youre over it'.

You should have spared us the "New Yorker" writing style. As a long time journalist, may i suggest, Rudolf Floesh's "How to WRite, Speak, and Think More Effectively."

He's dead now, his book out of print but a news director forced me to read it and it served me well for decades. Nothing worse than pretentiousness than maybe 'legaleze'. That was his enemy. Write clear. Write like you talk. Talk to your typewriter. Oh wait, this isn't 1972. Write to your Dell keyboard!

I think I agree with you, but your prose just made me work harder than I wanted to in THIS medium, a chat room! Put another way, I wasn't stuck with your article in the doctors office. I had the chance to click off of you at any time.

You're luckly I was interested enough in the topic to wade through it!

-0-

I find the Sharpton types just a little disengenous for not doing WAY MORE to get words like 'ho' out of black common language.

They protest too much. On second thought, the girls didn't really look like hos. Weren't as skanky. But ya know the NC dubble A didnt' show their humanness, just their sweat on the court. So what's an imis shock jock to think?

THe talk show ciruit was right about one thing. Imus personalized it like rappers don't. He said THOSE GIRLS were ho's. thats the line he crossed, otherwise he was just being a new york comedian. I've been to NY comedy houses... racial commentary is what they're about. Its the NY culture. Its a tolerant place, unlike most places. You buy your breakfast from an Arab, get your laundry from an Asian and the bus driver's an hispanic. Maybe. NY is truly a safe haven for diversity.

Imus went too far, but not THAT far! Sharpton's coming across as an opportunist, just a little. Certainly not Christian. WE have a lot of work to do in racial tolerance, if we allow a black comic to say it but we want a white one fired. Whoopi was even more mellow and more reasonable than the REVERENDS we've seen so much of the last few days.

I knew there was a reason why I like her so much!

The old curmudgeon has groveled enough. He will surely have to apoligize in a few years once again cuz anybody who seeks to be edgy will cross the line.

I was reminded once when a news director suspended me for three days for a factual error on television. Said never let it happen again. I was smart enough to know it WOULD happen again...because with deadlines as they are in TELEVISION, mistakes will just happen. So who was smarter, me or the ND? Her successor got rid of me anyway, so what the hell!

Bottom line, Imus's groveled enough. TV needs another story to beat into the ground. Will some dictator PLEASE attack another country this week?

Radio-
re: Will some dictator PLEASE attack another country this week?

Well, I think the loyal Bushies are thinking about Iran...

Radio-
In particular:

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism., question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them. Consider for instance some comfortable English professor defending Russian totalitarianism. He cannot say outright, "I believe in killing off your opponents when you can get good results by doing so." Probably, therefore, he will say something like this:

"While freely conceding that the Soviet regime exhibits certain features which the humanitarian may be inclined to deplore, we must, I think, agree that a certain curtailment of the right to political opposition is an unavoidable concomitant of transitional periods, and that the rigors which the Russian people have been called upon to undergo have been amply justified in the sphere of concrete achievement."

They protest too much.

The problem I have with it is that these gals are still teenagers and they didn't deserve a comment like that.

But there's a real problem in the black community. About a year ago I was waiting while a friend went into a store and a black women with little kids was talking on the phone and almost every sentence included the word motherfucker.

And I don't know why it's acceptable for Chris Rock to say nigger, or why it is necessary for Bill Maher, talking to him about Michael Richards, to say "the N-word."

I mean we all know what the N-word is, and this PC nonsense only brings to mind the word that no white person is allowed to say, but blacks feel compelled to broadcast like a ritual.

I say good for the goose, good for the gander.

If you don't like a word, then don't use it.

Is it just me or this story is just a distraction from the fact that the "Surge" in Iraq is failing. This story should't have the legs it gotten, the media is proping up this nonstory about a crusty ol fart who doesn't have any real radio ratings and even fewer MSNBC viewers. CSPAN is more interesting than IMUSty.

It's yet another day of IMUS' "Mea Culpa Tour" on MSNBC.

Makes me want to puke at this point. enough is enough.

Note to Imus: Time to move on. We know you're sorry. We know you do some good things with your money. Maybe you'll be back, maybe you won't but at least don't go out cowering in the corner self-flagellating yourself. Your 35 years on the air deserves more respect by you, and the people who keep asking for more blood from you -- don't.

Is it just me or this story is just a distraction from the fact that the "Surge" in Iraq is failing.

Why do you say the surge is failing?

I thought that Sadr declaring war on the US and telling his people to attack US soldiers was proof positive that it was working. When your enemies have to change tactics so dramatically and publicly that is usually a sign that things are going good, not bad.

Fecal, just top continue my post above.

The US didn't change tactics in Iraq because the former ones were working...so it follows that if our new strategy is causing our enemies to change their tactics so dramatically, then that is at the very least a good sign that things are going in a better direction. I believe Ge. Petraeous however that a creidble assesment of whether the surge strategy is working or not won't be avaialbale till early fall.

So not to sound like a racist, but where did these terms of "inderment" come from in the first place? I thing that dumbass Imus was just trying to sound "hep" and it backfired on him.

Why do you say the surge is failing?

I thought that Sadr declaring war on the US and telling his people to attack US soldiers was proof positive that it was working. When your enemies have to change tactics so dramatically and publicly that is usually a sign that things are going good, not bad.

Posted by Bowa at 2007-04-11 07:46 AM | Reply


You just hate the fact that the insurgency is in its death throes, the civil war is yesterday's news already, the new iraq governemnt should be up-n-running in 6-8 weeks and our soldiers are on the brink of coming home.

Posted by lokisfur at 2006-04-27 04:03 PM


RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTT Lokisfur Hmmmmmmmmmm bwhahahahahahaha

Larry

Then why isn't Fox news touting the success with evidence to back it up? I think we (US) are the ones changing tactics with the "Surge" How troops have died this month? the number hasn't made a blip on MSM compared to wall to wall with IMUSty.

Opps I forgot McLame sezs its safe to walk the streets of Bagdad. The surge must be wokin

Then why isn't Fox news touting the success with evidence to back it up?

I think all the networks actually have said there are hopeful signs. As for concret, long lasting success, I think that most people are following Petraeous' lead and taking a wait and see attitude.

Of course, there are people like you who believe I guess that the only succesful wars are wars fought withot incurring any casualties and any casualty at all is proof that the whole exercise is a failure.

As I said, I think Sadr seems to be running scared and losing a hold on his followers who must be beginning to balk at attacking their fellow Iraqis. So instead he is trying to demonize the Americans and appeal to his followers nationalism and attack the US soldiers instead.

But Sadr's followers I am sure know the choice that is before them -- either fight the US and Iraqi security forces hoping to win and have Iraq become a puppet of Iran or lay down their weapons and support the new Iraqi government and become part of a democracy where they must share power with Sunnis, Kurds, and Baathists.

There is no evidence that Sadr is "running scared" just your wishful thinking and as far as succesful wars goes since WWII only Desert Storm and Kosvo have had real definable success with minimal casualties. Korea...>50,000 in less than 4 years and almost 60 years later we still have a large contingency there. Successful? Eye of beholder.....and that is the best we can hope for in Iraq is a standoff and "cold war" for years to come. Democracy is a pipe dream that even Bush doesn't subscribe to anymore or at least he not touting it.

Whats next? The MSM going to fish for comments made on satellite radio by Stern or Opie to march out as red herring for all to define where they stand politically.

I got a good idea lets stick out thumbs in our mouths turn our brains to neutral and argue about how hurtful words said dusty Imusky are....

So not to sound like a racist, but where did these terms of "inderment" come from in the first place? I thing that dumbass Imus was just trying to sound "hep" and it backfired on him.

Imus said as much this morning. I saw a clip on another program of the film Bernie must have gotten the terms jigaboo and wannabe from. In it two black girls are arguing in the hallway of a school and one of them says to the other, "You're just some jigaboo wannabe." Anyone know the film?

I heard the radio spot last night on anderson cooper and I can tell you that my opinion on it changed with that..
it is essentially no big deal......the way he said it and in that context, it is a big deal about very little.....
would I feel differently if I was a little nappy headed boy......(stevie wonder lyrics).....probably but I would hope that I would understand that it was bad joke gone bad and well........
as I an so many other "entertainers" can tell you in the great line from the chief in "little big man"

'sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesnt."

oh yeah AND.............

when he was on sharpton, he said that it was the black community that came up with the term, not him and that he was just using it STUPIDLY to make a joke......

also, if you havent seen the video from his radio show......I know that sounds stupid, but it is broadcast on msnbc.......then maybe you should before too many of you get all uppity.....and then when you do if you still want him fired or neutored.....well he put himslef into fair game, now didnt he?

Spike's message was one of rubbing faces in this hypocrisy in hopes of removing it from the culture, so the use of the same verbage by Bernie makes the insult even more eggregious.

Tony,

Thanks for the info. (Sorry for cross posting.) Can you clarify for me why Bernie's usage was more eggregious? It's because he's white, right, and not using the words sarcastically? If he had been black and using the words as sarcasm, that would have been okay because his intention would have been different. Bernie did mean it as a joke and probably a sarcastic one, but not sarcastic in the same way Spike Lee did in the film.

I understand if that's your point, but it's a tough argument to make people accept. It's the same problem I had with Trees calling Obama "my boy." She didn't mean it as in insult at all, but if some conservative talking head starts referring to Obama as "your boy Obama," it will be an insult, one somewhat difficult to explain.

I find it a coward's move, a bully's desperate flailing shot, to come out and say that his mistake is excusable because he saw other people do it.

Imus didn't said that. He said the fact the others say it isn't an exuse.

Gal...

Its eggregious because he used it as the subtext for the joking insult. Spike was trying to eliminate this division in black America, and Bernie used it to underscore his view of the differences between the Rutgers women compared to the lighter skinned women of Tennessee such as Candice Parker.

The term "my boy" is obviously one of endearment not derision. Being someone's "boy" means you are their friend and very close. Calling a man "boy" is a completely different thing, and is quite the insult. Again, its about context as always.

I tend to agree with the writer above. Imus, while saying it isn't an excuse, IS presenting it as an excuse of his own behavior. Perhaps the best commentary on this topic was made by Howard Fineman of Newsweek last night. He believes due to Bush's complete refusal to ever say he was wrong or to apologize for his myraid mistakes, our culture is now tired of those who refuse to take responsibility for their own independent actions without caveat. I only hope his is an accurate assessment of the shifting American zeitgeist.

The authors I quoted in the other thread are very correct that a continual public flogging of black culture by black critics can fuel the notion in bigots that its open season, and many are fearful of having this dialog in the open for this reason. The fact that white America isn't aware to what extent the majority of black spokespersons have spoken out loudly and often about the misogyny propogated in this street culture doesn't mean that moral, ethical blacks don't abhor it as much as mainstream, cultured America does.

Tony,

I've come to the conclusion that when Imus calls his wife the green ho, it is a term of endearment (just as the word bitch can be under certain circumstances). Of course, Imus isn't close to the Rutgers women, so he shouldn't be calling them hos. I didn't make a dark skin/light skin connection between the two teams. I understand why using hos was unacceptable, but I also believe that both Imus and Bernie have respect for the Rutgers women as players. (That's why they called them tough.)

Interestingly, Chris Carlin, the sports guy on Imus, does the radio broadcasts for the Rutgers women's basketball team. He was out sick last week though when the comments were made.

What you see as a caveat in Imus' apology, I see as his not wanting to be the only one raked over the coals. One thing he doesn't like is hypocrisy, and he thinks he sees alot of it going on right now in the media coverage of the story. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter what we think. Neither one of us knows what's in his heart.

Actually, I don't think there is any way to justify it--you can't make something moral or ethical by simply pointing out that others are guilty of committing the same offense.

The real question is what is just in what the repercussions should be.

Should we have zero tolerance for this kind of comment and state that everyone loses their job?

I think the wise thing for Imus to do would be to ask those he offended, the Rutgers team, lead by the coach, to decide what his punishment should be. He should agree to place his fate in their hands.

I think the whole country would be surprised and healed by their forgiving response. They are an impressive group.

Cheers

Grendel...

While I agree with your thoughts, the court of public opinion is going to be the ultimate determinant of Imus' fate, not soley the ladies of Rutgers. They will forgive him, as they should, because this is how they were raised and these are the values instilled by their coach and mentors.

What I see as more significant is the advertisers who are choosing to pull their support from Imus and MSNBC. I said yesterday and Monday that my belief is that Imus' advertisers and listeners would be the ultimate judges of his conduct, and it appears that I was correct.

I also stated that words have consequences and once spoken, they can never be un-spoken. I have no doubt of Imus' innate goodness and sincerity as a human being, but he is going to learn a fateful lesson, not because he's white and spoke disparingly about young black women, but because he sat in a position of authority and spoke condesendingly about people that exemplify courage, success, and dignity who didn't possess an equal platform to stick up for themselves until yesterday.

Now that America has had a chance to see and hear these normal, bright American ladies, the majority of us saw what I did from the beginning: our daughters. And why should anyone's daughter be objectified by a disaffected radio personality cracking wise about their looks, instead of praising their success? What father would find it humorous for someone on national tv and radio to call their child a "nappy-headed ho" for the sake of a yuk?

Perhaps we've had this wrong from the beginning. Imus' apology doesn't need to end with the girls, he should have to share a room with their fathers as well. Trust me, he'd leave that room with a different perspective on life that he'd never forget!

Tony,

I believe the women's parents and well as their coaches will be attending the meeting with Imus, so it looks like you will get your wish.

This whole thing has grown to ridiculous proportions. People discuss Imus's situation on TV, in print, in person, on the radio.....as if it were important.
Nobody died. In Iraq however people die every day. To me Imus has become the new Anna Nicole; nonsense for people to think about and talk about so that they will be distracted from what is important.

I think the wise thing for Imus to do would be to ask those he offended, the Rutgers team, lead by the coach, to decide what his punishment should be. He should agree to place his fate in their hands.

I agree with you that they are a very impressive group, but I don't think they would want to take on that responsibility, nor do I think anyone should ask them to. They can forgive him or not as they see fit.

Danni,

There are many fighting and dying in Iraq who signed up for the military, so they could get a college education. Hmmm, now that I think about it, our soldiers and veterans is probably the one group I've never heard Imus say something negative about. In fact, next Monday he was going to have vets who've lost their limbs on the show in order to increase awareness regarding the long term medical treatment many vets are going to need. If he doesn't lose his job, I'm sure he'll reschedule them.

Now that America has had a chance to see and hear these normal, bright American ladies, the majority of us saw what I did from the beginning: our daughters. And why should anyone's daughter be objectified by a disaffected radio personality cracking wise about their looks, instead of praising their success? What father would find it humorous for someone on national tv and radio to call their child a "nappy-headed ho" for the sake of a yuk?

Perhaps we've had this wrong from the beginning. Imus' apology doesn't need to end with the girls, he should have to share a room with their fathers as well. Trust me, he'd leave that room with a different perspective on life that he'd never forget!


I worked out of my car yesterday and listened to a black mother call into Rush's show and weigh in on this Imus thing. She thought the indignation toward Imus' remarks was self-defeating - by being offended by his remarks these girls are increasing the value of his words and are de-valueing their own personal perception of self. In short, why bother getting upset over his remarks? Who in the hell is Don Imus anyway? It was not only an interesting take on the situation, but a refreshing one as well.

Imus' history is working against him. If this were the first time that he had done something like this, I doubt that there would be such an uproar. However, Imus has a pattern of "on air" bad behavior that has finally caught up with him. I think that he should be pushed off the public airwaves and join his "friend" Howard Stern on satellite radio.

The other thing working against Imus is that he has evolved from "shock jock" to political talk show host with a large number of mainstream guests that routinely visit his show. Imus can't have it both ways.

Jeff,

I worked out of my car yesterday and listened to a black mother call into Rush's show and weigh in on this Imus thing. She thought the indignation toward Imus' remarks was self-defeating - by being offended by his remarks these girls are increasing the value of his words and are de-valueing their own personal perception of self. In short, why bother getting upset over his remarks? Who in the hell is Don Imus anyway? It was not only an interesting take on the situation, but a refreshing one as well.

Posted by JeffJ at 2007-04-11 12:27 PM |

Sticks and stones and what not?

There is something to that, but consider the issue I raised yesterday in my 1:50 post yesterday:

One day one of these girls will have their daughter run across the story of their mom's campaign for a national championship, and they will hear their mother described as ugly and whorish. As a mentor of young people, a coach and an athlete. That bothers me.

Posted by leadbelly at 2007-04-10 01:50 PM |

This wasn't a heckler at a game, or some random comments in the street. This was in a national media broadcast. People can't "unhear" things. One day this will affect their lives again whether they want it to or not, and probably in a very personal and embarassing way. Words can and do hurt, especailly when they are broadcast at a kajillion megawatts.

Due to the very nature of slavery and its aftermath, the matriarchal role in black America has and continues to be extremely important in the evolution of the black community.


The need to degredate and objectify the role of females is largely in response to the unwillingness or inability of many black men to shoulder their responsibilities as parents and supporters of families, hence the need to attempt to place themselves above the fray, while scapegoating the female's vulnerability as the reason for their selfish, self-serving behaviors.



Tony, with all respect for what you are saying, I still do not see how this type of language and attitude should be tolerated. If you can't condemn or refrain from using degrading, racial language why expect others to respect you?

Lead,


This wasn't a heckler at a game, or some random comments in the street. This was in a national media broadcast. People can't "unhear" things. One day this will affect their lives again whether they want it to or not, and probably in a very personal and embarassing way. Words can and do hurt, especailly when they are broadcast at a kajillion megawatts.

Those are all salient points, I don't deny the truth behind what you've said.

What I didn't mention about this woman's comments was that she didn't think the outrage itself was a bad thing. Imus' remarks reflect directly on his employers and sponsors. Her point was very focused - these girls are doing themselves a dis-service if they allow themselves to get all worked up and offended at the stupid remarks of a shock-jock. The fact that his remarks caused a media uproar is wholly appropriate IMO.

If you can't condemn or refrain from using degrading, racial language why expect others to respect you?

Posted by anamerican at 2007-04-11 12:49 PM
Who is "you?"

Again and for the last time. Who says rappers speak for all black people? Who says any one black person speaks for all black people?

Who are we to assume is the voice of all white people? Rush? Mark Ferman? Bush? Rev. Phelps? Ann Coulter?

There's no rational reason to assume that these women or their families have condoned this kind of language or imagery and are thus "subject to it." It's convenient to think that way and to not acknowledge their indiviudality, but it's not rational.

Tony, with all respect for what you are saying, I still do not see how this type of language and attitude should be tolerated. If you can't condemn or refrain from using degrading, racial language why expect others to respect you?

Did you read what was written in the thread itself? That is my sole purpose in posting it. It is a factual response to people asking the same types of questions you do. I am not making excuses for tolerating misogyny, I am making an argument showing where EVERY community of responsible adults should stand against its furtherance for the sake of money and for standing up for decency and respect of all people. And please don't discount the fact that its emergence in popular culture has to do with the ability of many to profit from its exploitation. This cannot be laid on the black community by itself, and Coach Stringer articulated this position eloquently yesterday in her remarks as well.

Jeff,
Her point was very focused - these girls are doing themselves a dis-service if they allow themselves to get all worked up and offended at the stupid remarks of a shock-jock. The fact that his remarks caused a media uproar is wholly appropriate IMO.

Posted by JeffJ at 2007-04-11 01:00 PM

I'd probably lean the opposite direction. The girls and their families had very good reason to offended, worked up, and to extract a pound of flesh from Imus/WNBC.

The media firestorm on the other hand probably makes it more likely than ever that one day, one of their future daughters will read an article about their mom being an ugly whore when she competed for the national championship. No one is going to remember that Pat Summit won her billionth national championship in 2007. All people will remember is that Imus insulted these girls. That sucks for everyone involved.

I wish there were a way to put stories like this in a box under gag order until there is closure for the participants.

Leadbelly, rappers may not speak for all black people just as Imus may not speak for all white people.

If black people do not like to be demoralized by rappers, they should put the same pressure on them as they do to people like Imus.

Jeff,
And, lastly, Imus is not a shock jock. He is a journalsim commentator, one with a caustic sense of humor, but he's not in the shock jock business, and hasn't been since Stern stole his audience. Imus "grew up" about 20 years ago.

Jeff...

All you've done is illuminate the metaphysical belief that short of physical attack, no one can be altered by the words or actions of others unless they allow them to affect how the recipient feels about his or herself! Theoretically Imus can't make the girls feel anything that they don't bring on themselves subconsciously. But reality isn't that simple and most humans aren't that mentally nor emotionally strong.

This is true for every single interaction we have in our lives. If we decide not to let the comments of others change our views of ourselves, then how have we been harmed? We haven't, but that still doesn't mitigate how others not directly involved view the situation and in how they respond to it.

Tony,

I agree with your point to a point, but there has got to be a point where one says I will not take offense. I will not allow the words, which everyone knows to be untrue, to have the power to hurt me.

While there are no doubt concentric rings of offense that spring out from these young women to their families, school, women, blacks to human beings in general, there is no reason to give those words that much power. If the individuals for whom the offense was directed move beyond it, then everyone else should show them respect by moving along too--that should include family who would have nothing but great respect and admiration for them.

Imus should not go away. His show should be transformed by him to reflect the respect that should be shown to all people. That much more than him sulking in his ranch would be a testament to dignity of these women, and it just may have a ripple effect, here positive.

Danni says that my comment that Imus should allow his fate to be put in their hands in giving them too much responsibility. I disagree. These are strong women lead by a strong person. They are a team; they can rise to the challenge, bear the stress, take on something that they should not have to do and in doing so create a real positive impact on the social landscape of the country. Isn't this what the coach has been calling or hoping for in the interviews?

Finally,

While I agree in part with those who lament that this story just won't go away and that people are dying in Iran etc., I don't think this is any less important. The individual incident in the big scheme of things may be, but the event is just the current focus for what amounts to real issues of race that this country often neglects to deal with.

This is and is not about Imus, the Rutgers basketball team, Al Sharpton, etc. This is about us, our society, how we see ourselves and others in it and what we should do to improve our country as a whole. There are few things more important. This event has just made us turn out attention to it.
It will go away, but will the problems?

Cut the head off of this hydra and walk away and two more will grow.

Cheers

If black people do not like to be demoralized by rappers, they should put the same pressure on them as they do to people like Imus.

Posted by anamerican at 2007-04-11 01:08 PM

Read Tony's linked thread and watch the PBS documentary Gal cited. There are more voices in the black community than you seem to be aware of.

AnAm,
No matter what you are hearing from pundits, or "communnity voices" I still think my question is relevant. Individuals make thier feelings on these kind of issues pretty clear. Why on earth are disembodied voices of "community" more significant to you than the clear statements and dignity of individuals?

Those of you who keep trying to individualize this thing by saying that no one should allow someone else to have that power over them are missing the point. The point being that as a society, we have determined that our public airwaves should be free of hateful and derogatory speech. Had Imus made those statements "eye ball to eye ball" there would probably be no public outcry. He didn't. He used the public airwaves and by doing so, violated society's rules of how the airwaves should be used which, ultimately, adversely affects us all.

Danni says that my comment that Imus should allow his fate to be put in their hands in giving them too much responsibility. I disagree. These are strong women lead by a strong person. They are a team; they can rise to the challenge, bear the stress, take on something that they should not have to do and in doing so create a real positive impact on the social landscape of the country. Isn't this what the coach has been calling or hoping for in the interviews?

Actually, it was me who said that, Grendel, and part of the reason I did is because when team leader was asked what should happen to Imus, she declined to comment, indicating that was not for them to decide.

While I agree in part with those who lament that this story just won't go away and that people are dying in Iran etc., I don't think this is any less important. The individual incident in the big scheme of things may be, but the event is just the current focus for what amounts to real issues of race that this country often neglects to deal with.

This is and is not about Imus, the Rutgers basketball team, Al Sharpton, etc. This is about us, our society, how we see ourselves and others in it and what we should do to improve our country as a whole. There are few things more important. This event has just made us turn out attention to it.
It will go away, but will the problems?

I agree. This is an important issue for our country, one that needs to be addressed. Focusing on Imus only is to one the tip of the iceberg and ignore the larger issue.

This cannot be laid on the black community by itself, and Coach Stringer articulated this position eloquently yesterday in her remarks as well.

Posted by tonyroma


The problem is that when the black community is silent when it comes to either black comedians or black musicians using these phrases, and worse, that denigrate women and blacks and other minorities there is a perception that in some context this is acceptable. Comedians change into their black street persona and start talking this way and everybody laughs. Unfortunately all the "rightous" indignation by everyone, with the exception of the people directly involved" is incredibly fake and designed to bolster the image of these people. I wonder, where will all the indignation be sometime this afternoon or tomorrow as the prosecutors drop all charges against the Duke lacrosse team players?

It is interesting that the Duke boys are back in the news and these young athletes have been defended in the press time and again. But many of you find it difficult to understand the outrage against the Imus remarks. What would have been the response if Al Sharpton( or any notable Black) on his national radio program had call these Lacrosse player "Rich Cracker Rapist"? All those words are part of the american lexicon. You think there would be outrage?

There are myriad voices in the black community doing precisely what you ask.

How many calling for the rappers, comedians, actors to be fired?

We know the bottom line is money. If these corporate giants though that black people or progressive white people would vote with their purses, then Imus would have been fired the next hour. Instead we talk and talk. If you or your kids buy or listen to this garbage you are supporting it and perpetuating it. Imus and many others have been spewing this shit for years. It doesn't matter if it is Snoop Dog, Rush, Imus, Sony, CBS, or anyone who promote and profit from hate speech. We get this kind of behavior because we tolerate it and in effect condone it.

In the context of this discussion about people making offensive remarks against another race or women, I offer the perfect smell test before opening your mouth to say, write or sing anything.

Ask yourself if the words you use would be offensive to you if they were spoken by someone not of your own race or gender.

Gal,

Sorry for the misattribution.

P.S. I have enjoyed and for the most part agreed with your posts on this thread.

Cheers

"Imus taunted one reporter as a 'boner-nosed, beanie-wearing Jewboy' and referred to the publisher Simon & Schuster as 'thieving Jews," returning later with a mock apology explaining that he misspoke since the term is redundant. He called the New York Knicks 'chest-bumping pimps.' Tucker Carlson, he said, is a 'bowtie-wearing pussy.' According to Mike Wallace reqport on '60 Minutes,' Imus said he picked a particular producer to do 'nigger jokes' on air. Emily Rooney made one anti-Imus comment on CNN and said Imus pummeled her for three weeks as 'a cow' and accused her of 'getting into the liquor cabinet.' An Imus assistant, reporting on sports, called tennis star Amalie Maurismo 'a big old lesbo' and referred to the Indian men's doubles team as 'Gunga Din and Sambo".

WSJ Op-Ed today.

Boy that Imus is a really funny guy; I mean look at all of those innocent jokes above.

Imus is not funny, IMO.

I never have liked people who make fun of other people's appearance. I never liked Don Rickles either. Rickles wouldn't survive in today's world.

I want to know what these girls think of Gay rights.

Oppey and Anthoney spent their whole show today saying nigeer this nigger that. They sited the top ten rab songs today, and 4 out of ten used N, Hoe, bitch, slut, etc repeatedly. Nobody complained.

Since when is "Nappy Haired" a bad word, or a racist word? He apologized get over it. When CNN ran their 30 minute interview with RU, they cut in every 5 minutes and REPEATED the scene where Imus makes his transgression.If it was soo bad why can they repeat it, again, and again, and again???

I don't hear Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson taking back all their race hatred from the Duke case.

It seems to me this is a bunch of BS, being used by PC holier than thou hypocrites!!!!!!!!!!!

If saying Hoe is so bad, why aren't Al and Jessie protesting all today's rappers? Hypocrite race baiters to the end!

I agree Dave. We live in a double standard country.

And Stevie Wonder coined the phrase that Imus used.