Oh, another surprise.

I'm shocked.
Finest government money can buy.

The aftermath is more profits for the drug industry, and lucrative jobs for those who orchestrated the votes passing the bill.

Its a good illustration of how Congress can be bought. First the legislation, then million dollar jobs with the industry or with it's lobbyists.

Brings to mind that bit about of people, by the people , for the people...And the Republican response, in falsetto...Corporations are People too!!!

Best thing is to eat well, exercise and stay off their drugs.

I'm glad to see our system working so well. The more we change, the more it stays the same. We have an old saying here in California, I think they also have it in Texas;

"There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now the parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again"

Best thing is to eat well, exercise and stay off their drugs.

Hear, hear!!

Eat right, exercise, stay off drugs - the perfect way to avoid genetically based chronic illnesses.

I'll get some popcorn, sit back, and watch the impending "I need these pills to live" vs "executives need your money to buy a yacht" debate.

Someone tell me how this would work...

or are you all just "Brain stemming" this issue.

enlighten me

Someone tell me how this would work...

If you are referring to the government negotiating with pharma, pretty simple: "we buy (say) 32% of your production through Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, so we want a quantity discount or we'll buy elsewhere and make generics more available".

Competition is the mantra for Republicans unless it effects certain industries making billions off of American sick people.

the perfect way to avoid genetically based chronic illnesses

What is you don't understand about MEDICARE? Most genetic diseases manifest at a relatively early age.

Most of drugs used by seniors involve some aspect of cardiovascular disease. Type II diabetes is probably second.

Did you notice the comparison of drug cost between Medicare and VA started with Lipitor?

Pay attention.

Mike,

What is you don't understand about MEDICARE? Most genetic diseases manifest at a relatively early age.

And when they live to reach the age of 65 they can enroll in Medicare. My mother, for example. I don't even want to know how much her perscriptions cost. She has lots.

The real issue is that W has and will continue to put the foxes in charge of the hen house every oppertunity that he can manufacture.

Did you notice the comparison of drug cost between Medicare and VA started with Lipitor?

Pay attention.

Have you "paid attention" to the advertisements for Lipitor (or any of the statins, for that matter....) in little tiny print... (not shown to reduce cardio-vascular disease).

If you are referring to the government negotiating with pharma, pretty simple: "we buy (say) 32% of your production through Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, so we want a quantity discount or we'll buy elsewhere and make generics more available".

Posted by northguy3


Then go ahead... Seems that the market has already done that vis-a-vis generics.

I don't have a problem with "or we'll buy elsewhere"...
I DO have a problem with "or else"

Oh.... and a quick question since you bring up the VA...

Can you tell me the formulary available through that program?

Somewhere around half that available to seniors now.

One of the fundamental necessities in a representative government such as ours is to make certain that the men to whom the people delegate their power shall serve the people by whom they are elected, and not the special interests. I believe that every national officer, elected or appointed, should be forbidden to perform any service or receive any compensation, directly or indirectly, from interstate corporations; and a similar provision could not fail to be useful within the States.
Theodore Roosevelt

Competition is the mantra for Republicans unless it effects certain industries making billions off of American sick people.

Posted by danni

Danni...

You mean like the competition between Target and Walmart that lead to the $4 generic?

or the competition between between Drug companies to develop drugs with better efficacies or for diseases not yet treatable medically? (the cost of which is in the billions per drug)

What happens when this "negotiation" ends in the company turning down the governments "offer"... ? Do you compel them to manufacture? compel them to provide?

""What happens when this "negotiation" ends in the company turning down the governments "offer"... ? Do you compel them to manufacture?""

then we start allowing foreign medicines into the US. Overseas competition as in all other goods.

lol....

And what percent of current formulary do you think is available through foreign meds?

Whats wrong with you knot heads---

WHATS WRONG WITH WANTING A LOWER COST OF THE FUCKIN THINGS THAT PEOPLE NEED?????

PROB- GO SUCK ON AN AK

YIKES..... hold the presses....

at risk of hijacking the thread.... did danni ACTUALLY suggest open trade? ("as in all other goods") ??

What about the jobs, danni....??

back to the threads...

What kind of access do you think that the Canadians (just so as not to be euro-bashing) have to the "latest greatest" drugs available in the US??

"WHATS WRONG WITH WANTING A LOWER COST OF THE FUCKIN THINGS THAT PEOPLE NEED?????

PROB- GO SUCK ON AN AK"

Speaking of being off their meds.... do you think that "suck an ak" is just a bit of an overreaction.

READ my posts, you goofball.. I was CELEBRATING the low cost available because of competition.

My question was, what do you do if they don't want to sell it at the "government" price.... ??
And I can see YOUR reaction to that

Drug Lobby Wrote Medicare Prescription Bill

No kidding. I stayed up until 3 a.m.the morning they were voting on this bill to see if this "big pharma" bought and paid for bill would pass 'cause my Mom would be negatively affected by it and her medicine isn't cheap. When I went to sleep -- because the votes showed the bill had NOT passed and the voting was closed -- I woke up to find out the votes were 'changed' during the night and that Tom Delay had ILLEGALLY held open the votes for hours past the legal time (suppose to be no longer than 15 minutes after the voting closes) in order to strongarm and bribe certain congressmen to change their 'no" votes -- and they did so the bill passed.

This bill was written so that EVERYTHING was for the drug companies and it screwed every senior citizen and pensioner forced into Buh's new drug plan.

Many were forced by their employers to get on Bush's drug plan so the corporations didn't have to deal with -- or pay for anymore -- their former employees' pension plans that had covered prescription drugs. They could just force them into Bush's prescription drug plan instead. I wouldn't let my Mom near Bush's scam "Part D" even though the drug companies were calling her phone number non-stop to get her to sign up.

Donut-holes", NO generics", NO ordering cheaper online from Canadian pharmacies" (even though they used the same U.S. drug companies, NO ordering prescription drugs "in bulk" for Medicare recipients in order to get a cheaper price (as is done by the VA and others) -- every rule was done for the drug companies profits.

That's why I see red when the Republicans all say that Bush spent billions on the "Prescription Drug Plan for Medicare Seniors" - what crap. Bush spent billions on the "Prescription Drug plan for the Pharmaceuticals."

The $4 generics are nice. I don't see how that invalidates the benefit of allowing Medicare to negotiate prices with drug manufacturers, though.

again... I've no problem with a negotiation.

I simply asked what you all think should be done if the company doesn't wish to sell at the government price.

From the CBC News (that's in Canada for you all)

"But the biggest reason for the price disparity is the existence of drug price controls in Canada. The Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, a quasi-judicial body of the government created in 1987, reviews pharmaceutical prices and enacts caps for patented drugs and medicines prices. "

reminds me of "Hilla-care" where it would have been illegal to see a doctor privately. Both doctor and patient would have face prosecution.

Prob,
Insulin comparative costs:
US Insurance Company $150
US Private Citizen $600
UK Public Health System $75
African Citizen $3

Do any of these figures suggest Hillary was on the right track, or that pricing is political and corrupt? Do you like being fucked in the ass?

In all Western Countries with socialized medicine (which can have long waits) private care is also available for those who can afford it. Your assertion that she would outlaw private care is ridiculous.

""reminds me of "Hilla-care" where it would have been illegal to see a doctor privately.""

When you don't have an argument just make shit up.

""lol....

""And what percent of current formulary do you think is available through foreign meds?""

You don't think Germans, the French, Scandanavia, Japan, etc. know how to make drugs just as well as the US???

"reminds me of "Hilla-care" where it would have been illegal to see a doctor privately. Both doctor and patient would have face prosecution.

Posted by PRob at 2007-04-02 02:24 PM"

Cite please.

I don't understand how it can be illegal to import cheaper drugs from other places. There's something really wrong with that.

Then I look at the nice Zostavax coffee thermos that I got for free from a drug rep, and it all makes sense.

Sort of.

You don't think Germans, the French, Scandanavia, Japan, etc. know how to make drugs just as well as the US???

Posted by danni

in a word..... no
take a leadership position in the development of new drugs.... no
invest billions in research with a less-than 50% hit rate.... no

They ARE good at riding the top of the research bell curve, controlling formulary in an effort to reduce costs.

sorry, nutcase and montecore...

I'd love to continue educating you... rather than you using your actual memory, but I've got to get back to work.

Those of you who don't, can continue to kick this can down the street.

I was having a related discussion with my mom yesterday. She's in her mid-80s, and she's having problems as do most people in their mid-80s. She was telling about all the costs she has been incurring, mostly for drugs, most of which do not have "generic" counterparts.

She is ekking by, barely.

She is a naturalized citizen from Belgium. Belgium has an excellent public healthcare system, at all levels for all ages.

But I dared to ask the following questions as discussion points:

- How much more socialized do you want the United States to be?

_ How much higher of a tax rate do you want to pay?

Let's say the discussion got a bit heated.

But these are pertinent questions.

The individual tax rate in Belgium is around 50%.

Will middle-class US citizens be willing to pay that high rate in exchange for a good national healthcare plan?

ZOT..

Thank you, you're right.

About 15 years ago, I worked in Demark frequently. The very same discussion used to happen around the table after dinner...

Danes: bout 50% tax rate
Danes: 120+ day wait for MRI/CAT scans
Danes: Helicopters zooming out to pick up traffic accident or premie baby.... 0

..........some of us are willing to have our government wage war on the other side of the world for no reason at a cost of hundreds of billions.............

..........but providing public health and medicines to save our lives would be socialistic heresy..............

............as long as we have our priorities right, we will continue to get the government we deserve........

****Drug Lobby Wrote Medicare Prescription Bill****

......and the oil industry re-wrote the Environmental Protection laws........

......this administration is consistent......

""The individual tax rate in Belgium is around 50%.

Will middle-class US citizens be willing to pay that high rate in exchange for a good national healthcare plan?""

Add the amount we now pay for health insurance to all taxation and then figure who is paying more and how much. Leaving out that figure is comparing apples and oranges.
If your employer now pays for your health insurance then the amount he pays is how much would go towards the system.
How can American manufacturing companies compete with foreign companies who have health care provided for employees by the government?

So.... I take it that industry lobbyists writing and buying law in this country, then hiring the pols that they used is just fine and dandy with the right wingers?

Posted by skizziks at 2007-04-02 03:11 PM

"..........some of us are willing to have our government wage war on the other side of the world for no reason at a cost of hundreds of billions.............

..........but providing public health and medicines to save our lives would be socialistic heresy.............."

Well, that was another part of the discussion that came up.

And also the obscene salaries and bonus packages being paid to various corporate execs.

That "60 Minutes" segment surely showed our highly touted democratic system hitting rock bottom. The finest Republican legislators that our own health care dollars can buy... I mean ... is there anything LESS moral than linking health care to the great deity $$$? Yup, there is. The bushy party sinking to the ultimate degradation in betraying its constituents' interests, herm

The drug lobby, the pharm. megaliths, are the single biggest threat to the health and well-being of the citizens of the US, or rather, the residents therein, bar none.

Remember the story about the male infertility caused by the hormones ingested by beef-eating moms? It was only about two days ago. Well, a farmer friend of mine, in Orange County, NY, once told me the story behind the use of hormones in the Dairy business.

Know where the idea came from? From slick sales reps in from the scumbag pharmaceutical companies.

They slime around the farms, promising farmers new and miraculous ways to save a buck or increase a profit. They fill the farmers' heads with medical sounding mumbo jumbo and once they get a few farmers in on it, the others have to go along in order to keep up.

If they had never started, the farmers would be no worse off than they are now. Nobody actually benefits from the steroid usage, except the steroid pushers.

And now it's embedded in the industry and there's no way out.

The same crap goes on in our medical schools and right there in your GP's office. Ever had to wait extra long because the doctor was busy with a sales slug? I have, too often.

So.... I take it that industry lobbyists writing and buying law in this country, then hiring the pols that they used is just fine and dandy with the right wingers?

Posted by Corky at 2007-04-02 03:18 PM

ahhhh.... yep!

But these are pertinent questions.

The individual tax rate in Belgium is around 50%.

Will middle-class US citizens be willing to pay that high rate in exchange for a good national healthcare plan?

They're not very pertinent. Why does the discussion even have to include tax increases? That's just a phantom. There's already way too much money being stolen and wasted in the US sick-making system/machine.

First thing we do is kill all the lobbyists and ban medical advertising.

Next thing we do is teach our medical students how to keep people healthy instead of how to narrowly indentify and isolate specific symptoms which have to be treated with the most expensive drugs available.

Then we have to pass a law requiring all employed persons in the country to pay into an insurance plan. We can pretend it's an employer/employee shared system, but basically the money always comes out of wages.

Then we force the insurance companies to keep their rates affordable and regulate their profits. They don't like it? They get the hell out of the business and make room for someone who wants to work within the guidelines.

We do the same to the doctors and hospitals.

The slack is taken up by the government. It already is anyway.
Next, we throw any and all politicians found to be taking money from the now illegal medical lobby in jail. Along with the lobbyists.

That's a rough first sketch.

I simply asked what you all think should be done if the company doesn't wish to sell at the government price.


Posted by PRob at 2007-04-02 02:01 PM | Reply |

Yeah, I can see the pharmaceutical companies lining up right now to not do business with the largest purchaser of their goods in this country.

Brilliant!

Just like when WalMart tells the manufacturers what they will pay for the product they are buying. No one ever sells to WalMart.... it just magically appears on the shelves.

Prob - not only did you not educate me, you failed to support your ridiculous statement. Then you didn't even leave.

I think that can you kick may be what little you have left of your grey matter.

Prob: Canukistan has real doctors and they pay about half as much per person on state sponsored medical care as we do.
National health care will get here, if only because major companies are demanding it to remain competitive with the rest of the industrialized world,which has national healthcare and fewer hospitals filing for bankruptcy.

The RNC neocon righties dream of American capitalism and democracy!!!

Doesn't seem capitalism and democracy can actually work for all the people, just those who have the money.

This is what the republicans stand for!!!

Monte... I gave you 3 sources... yawn

Northguy, I've friends and family in Toronto. Time between MRI "suggested" by physician and getting it.... 173 days.

I'll skip national health care, thank you.

"Northguy, I've friends and family in Toronto. Time between MRI "suggested" by physician and getting it.... 173 days.

I'll skip national health care, thank you.

Posted by PRob at 2007-04-03 01:32 AM

I live in Germany. Time between MRI suggested and getting it... none. Next available appointment. "National(ized) Healthcare" is not the only option out there. Canada isn't the only other country in the world.

I can go to any doctor I want, at any time, including specialists. My daughter is covered 100% for everything, including medicines, no co-pay, no restrictions. Every child in htis country is covered the same way.

My own co-pay is extremely small, the maximum anyone here co-pays is 40euro, per year.

Isurance premiums are les than 400euro per month, including employer payments, for the whole family.


My doctor, and most of the doctors in my area, is not only medical-school trained, she's also got a vast knowledge of natural medicine methods, and these are all covered by insurance as well. I prefer them, and prefer to keep away from teh agressive stuff except when really necessary.

I've never so much as had to speak with a health insurance rep for anything. Never had any squabble about a bill because I don't receive any. Never had anything turned down or been told by some insurance company intern that something isn't covered. Go back to NY and the bureucratic quagmire that is the American HMO Mafia? I'll skip it, tyvm.

I simply asked what you all think should be done if the company doesn't wish to sell at the government price.

Posted by PRob

Tell them to go f**k themselves or sell it to us on a 'Most Favored Nation' basis seen in contracts (guaranteeing the same deal as the best got). -

The US gets to pay the lowest price paid worldwide. We're the largest single purchaser of drugs in the world. We deserve the best price.

AA,
We pay the most and get the least for health care, of any country in the world. The 60 minutes story is another confirmation of that fact.

If you have a serious problem in this country the very first thing the insurance comapny will do is declare you ineligible. The burden of proof and all the wasted time that goes with it then falls on you, regardless of how sick you are. In the meantime, Insurance Companies study their costs, eliminating benefits and drugs every year while they raise rates.

Insurance Companies pocket as much as 40% of every health care dollar while often forcing you to sue them to provide legal coverage. Medicare and Social Security overhead is 3-4%. But the US Government is not above making you sue them either, that's the great American way. The way our system works, if you are knowlegable and assertive, you can get good care, but it takes time and effort. Hospitals and Doctors have large staffs dedicated just to forcing payment of claims, another HUGE overhead.

The amount of money Insurance companies pocket just through intimidation of the weak and ignorant is staggering. The superior efficiency of the private sector is a big myth blasted on the airways by Corporate America while they rip you off.

In California, when everyone was forced onto Auto Insurance, rates went down. Covering everyone is a good thing and impossible to do without Government participation. If nothing else the expensive amoral game of pushing sick people off the rolls would end.

To argue against socialized medicine based on obscure details of Hillaries dead plan is a ridiculous exercise in distraction.

""The superior efficiency of the private sector is a big myth blasted on the airways by Corporate America while they rip you off.""

As was recently proven, once again, at Walter Reid Hospital.

I'm sorry danni.... you're right....

HEY, wait a minute... isn't that a VA hospital??

But you've always got Hillary to help with this..... sourced for the trolls.

As was recently proven, once again, at Walter Reid Hospital.

Posted by danni at 2007-04-03 10:36 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

I'm sorry danni.... you're right....

HEY, wait a minute... isn't that a VA hospital??


********************

No. Walter Reed is part of the DOD not the VA.

I stand corrected, you're absolutely right, jimmy....

"To argue against socialized medicine based on obscure details of Hillaries dead plan is a ridiculous exercise in distraction.
Posted by nutcase"

Not when she's the leading Dem candidate for President.

It needs to be noted that European nations paying 50 percent income tax are generally delighted to do so. They get something for their euros. Health care, education, all kinds of social safety nets for when catastrophe strikes. What do WE get for our lower rates? Bush and Gonzales, a war in Iraq, smog, pollution and a tap on our phones. herm

Another reason for the Fair tax. This wouldn't be possible. Hmmm, maybe that's why some congressmen don't talk about the Fair tax. They lose all their power.

What do WE get for our lower rates? Bush and Gonzales, a war in Iraq, smog, pollution and a tap on our phones. herm

Oh, then lets just raise our rates to 50% and all of those problems will go away :-(

Come on....those are mutually exclusive issues.

Insurance Companies pocket as much as 40% of every health care dollar while often forcing you to sue them to provide legal coverage

Prove that assertion please.

psssssssssttttt......

It's the lawyers

Nobody paying 50% in tax is "delighted" about it but you're essentially right, Hermie.

The difference is staggering. Really staggering. When I visit the US once or twice a year, I'm absolutely shocked at, for example, the condition of the roads. And the garbage that just lies there, everywhere, like part of the landscape. Here in Germany, there are crews out there all the time, cleaning and pruning bushes and just generally maintaining all of the public property.

What's crazy is that thre is far, far LESS regulation here. Everyone is basically free to go everywhere, uncontrolled, unobserved, with no hassle.

My mother gets all choked up when she comes to visit and says at least two times a day that she can fully understand why we want to stay here. And that she's so happy that her granddaughter is growing up here and not in NY.

In a German film about a refugee family sitting out the war in Africa, the mother says as their ship docks that "it's very nice, but one can't live here, can one?" My mother said the very same thing as we docked in Hoboken in 1938. If we paid 50 percent US income taxes our problems would not all vanish, but I suspect that we'd get something for our bucks. Now all we get is bush wiping out some underdeveloped nation. herm

NUTCASE

Exactly !!

People who talk about Belguim, Denmark, or other countries have most likely never been there and couldn't immediately point it out on a map.

Taxes are high, but you're taken care of the rest of your life - pension and all. No corporations trying to take away pensions or health care from retired workers while the CEO's bitch about gloom and doom and still collect THEIR multimillion dollar salaries and golden parachutes.

Crime is practically non existant. People are very happy.

""Prove that assertion please.""

Why don't you just provide us with a figure then. Do you pretend that they don't pocket a fairly large percentage as profit, so really you are just arguing over details. FAct is, whatever their profit margin, that is money which could be paying for medical care instead of CEO salaries and executive bonuses.
Like any other corporation, insurance companies focus on profits not health care for policy holders. They certainly can't match the low percentage of administrative costs that Medicare does.
I really can't think of a single argument for private health care insurance except for the profits for the stockholders and the huge paychecks for the CEOs, etc. Well, unless you consider discouraging preventive care and necessary treatment as a benefit....which I suspect you actually do.

The rest of the world has public health care so I know it is bad.

Private healthcare is good because I don't know, they tell me it is good.

RNC drones.