Pretty funny stuff. Most of these waivers are for such serious crimes as underage drinking, speeding and battery.
I myself was seriously urged by a judge at age 17 to consider the Army. And did so.

Young people who like to drink, fight and drive fast usually make great combat arms soldiers. Or thats my experience over the last 31 years.

"Most of these waivers are for such serious crimes as underage drinking, speeding and battery."

Although I don't make light of battery, finding it a serious offense, I agree with Trooper regarding the "seriousness" of the rest of their "crimes".

I am glad the military is giving second chances. Young people make mistakes and the military is giving them and opportunity to do something positive.

Sheets,

That may be the first time I've agreed with you on something.

Army Admits 8,100 Criminals

It's called an Army? Here in Los Angeles 8,100 criminals with guns are called gangs.

Wow Chris, so once you've paid your debt to society (by o say, picking up some trash and paying a fine) you are still a criminal? What if you were a juvie when it happened?

Wow, if George W. Bush's real history hadn't been cleansed he still wouldn't be able to serve.

Army Admits 8,100 Criminals

I would think this policy is something both sides of the ideological fence could agree on as positive. After all, this is 8,100 more recruits keeping the possibility of the draft away from their male spawn who therefore can remain safe at the home front. You know, the war is good/bad for someone else, not me or mine.

I'm afraid there's no such thing as "paying your debt to society". The unfortunate truth is that in this culture once a criminal then always so.

I was appalled to discover prosecutors don't see acquittals as proof of innocence. All it means to them is they didn't get you that time.

I was more appalled to discover prosecutors will not cut you loose from charges in the interests of justice even if they discover evidence you are innocent. The Duke case is an example we all know about.

It has also increased the number of so-called "moral waivers" to recruits with criminal pasts, even as the total number of recruits dropped slightly. The sharpest increase was in waivers for serious misdemeanors, which make up the bulk of all the Army's moral waivers. These include aggravated assault, burglary, robbery and vehicular homicide.

yep, nice bunch of boys. vehicular homicide (re:drinking and driving and killing someone-didnt one of you state they should be put away for life?), aggravated assault (yep a good beat down is a great thing), burglary, robbery (nothing like a good B&E to prepare one for war).

now all of you please act surprise when reports of violence against citizens in Iraq start surfacing a year from now.

truthhurts

now all of you please act surprise when reports of violence against citizens in Iraq start surfacing a year from now

This seems like one giant leap of logic. What kind of data supports this idea? It has been my experience that the boys next door fuck up no less than petty criminals in military situation (combat and garrison). In the military what is important is what you do after training, not what you have done before.

I dont think we are talking petty fuck ups

aggravated assaults?
vehicular homicide?

Those are pretty serious issues that indicate individuals with serious issues that will be exacerbated in a stressful situation like combat.

I dont think we are talking petty fuck ups

aggravated assaults?
vehicular homicide?

Those are pretty serious issues that indicate individuals with serious issues that will be exacerbated in a stressful situation like combat.

When we run out of the ones guilty of "minor" crimes we can start on those with more serious charges. Then we also have the retarded, the mentally ill, homeless people and finally, after all other sources for fresh meat for the grinder fail we have the children of the rich.

no danni, before we get to the last we will have victory

Wow Chris, so once you've paid your debt to society (by o say, picking up some trash and paying a fine) you are still a criminal?

Posted by trooper at 2007-02-16 05:50 AM | Reply

When it comes to voting in Florida.... yes.

Sincerely

Jeb Bush

YEAH!
"aggravated assault, burglary, robbery and vehicular homicide." Is a sure sign of maturity all right! And the 11% increase in FELONS is not a big deal!
Yup, I am not surprised that the wingers would swell with pride by the idea of adding additional criminals to their "hero" list!

But hey, don't expect these same people to give them a job after it's all said and done you know!

"Most of these waivers are for such serious crimes as underage drinking, speeding and battery.
I myself was seriously urged by a judge at age 17 to consider the Army"

******************

Did you read the article?

The sharpest increase was in waivers for serious misdemeanors, which make up the bulk of all the Army's moral waivers. These include aggravated assault, burglary, robbery and vehicular homicide.

The number of waivers for felony convictions also increased, to 11 percent of the 8,129 moral waivers granted in 2006, from 8 percent.

Waivers for less serious crimes like traffic offenses and drug use have dropped or remained stable.

894 felons received waivers

truthhurts

will be exacerbated in a stressful situation like combat

Is what you are stating; military training can turn Joe dope smoking, headphone eared, dirty necked fuck up in to a lean, mean, fighting machine, however it will not change someone who beat the shit out of another (with or without reason)? Again where are you getting your information from; facts, figures, numbers.... to back up your mouth?

after all other sources for fresh meat for the grinder fail we have the children of the rich.

Danni, Osama will be sitting in the WH before that happens. If the Young Republicans would support their Prez with more than bumper stickers, the Pentagon would never have missed a quota or had to redeploy troops 3 times.

I am stating that someone who has psychological issues that are so significant that they resulted in actions occuring that resulted in the death of someone (presumably serious alchohol problem) or arrests for assaulting someone or burglary etc.

For these crimes to have occurred indicates potential personality problems in those individuals. This potential being far in excess of those individuals not having committed these types of crimes.

those personality problems, (alchohol, violence, rage, kleptomania, borderline personality disorder (indicative of burglary, theft)) are typically significantly exacerbated under stressful situations. stress magnifies these problems. Training cannot solve those problems, they would take therapy, which is not likely in a combat zone.

If I were an officer in Iraq I don't think I would like knowing that people who had been convicted of aggravated assault had a rifle in their hands and might just not like that last order I gave them. I seem to remember that it became a rather large problem in Vietnam.

let us use as an example a person who received a waiver for vehicular homicide.

In most cases this is a result of drinking and driving resulting in an accident causing the death of another.

Most vehicular accidents related to drinking and driving are by repeat offenders, ie those who have more than one drinking and driving violation. That means the individual has drunk and drove numerous times.

This is an indication of a serious drinking problem. Ie one such incident could be a wake up call to get help, realize alchohol could be a problem, but to keep doing it (and become a repeat offender) is a serious problem, something that would be a problem is a combat zone.

ask Gunny Hartman about admitting lesser qualified individuals into the army.

ask Gunny Hartman about admitting lesser qualified individuals into the army.

It only makes sense to let criminals in the military...since our commander in chief is one.

Liberals ought to be happy about this.

They want felons to vote, rightly assuming that all criminals are Democrats.

If you can pack the military with these same people you won't have to repress so many absentee ballots in the future.

VERN....morning asshole!!

Funny shit, Vern.

Funny shit, Vern.

truthhurts

I am stating....

What I am asking; show me the follow up study of these prior convicted soldiers. You know, like their service records (etc), so we all can see exactly what you are stating. How many of these one percenters have actually done what you claim they will and the numbers compared to non-waivered recruits? Fact, not opinion....

danni

If I were an officer in Iraq....

Pity you are not, eh?

I love this Liberal Blog, nowhere else can a person get a chance to see the depressing collective perspective of the left.

Sure, you can turn on NBC or what have you, but the MSM always wraps their agenda in a thin layer of objectivity. Here at the Drudge the perspective of the Left is out in the open.

Then the Liberal posters open up on what ever subject is presented and the real entertainment begins.

Really, this is free and for an afternoons fun all you have to do is write something like:

Ann Coulter is a stone cold hottie!

or

Wouldn't Rush Limbaugh make a great President?

And then sit back and read, and read.

Thanks Rcade.

Time for the SS draft to be reinstated. The argument that you always get from those opposed is that you only get those that really, really WANT to be in the service. 8100 waivers of this type says to me that a lot of people are trying to get to the service to get away from something or other. It's time for Bush to make this happen.

Comedian,

Still waiting on that APO address.

Zulu,

Why in the world should those on the left NOT have a forum for their voice? Your post mentions two of the voices coming from the right.

""Ann Coulter is a stone cold hottie!""

For a transsexual but she/he couldn't teach at that Christian University.

""Wouldn't Rush Limbaugh make a great President?""

Oxycontin for everyone.

"Why in the world should those on the left NOT have a forum for their voice?"

On the contrary, a shudder at the thought of a world where the left does not have a forum where they can share their true feelings.

"For a transsexual but she/he couldn't teach at that Christian University."

That's the way Danni, you let it all out.

"Oxycontin for everyone."

You go girl.

I love this Liberal Blog, nowhere else can a person get a chance to see the depressing collective perspective of the left.


you must be so sad given the November 06 election results as to the number of people who share this perspective.

"...rightly assuming that all criminals are Democrats."

Oops:

Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire surrendered to police after allegedly molesting girls between the ages of 8 and 13.

And opps:

Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan was arrested for soliciting sex from 13-year old girls.

And oops:

Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall was sentenced to 275 days in jail for molesting two boys -- ages ten and 12 -- during a six-year period.

And oops:

Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl and killed himself three days later.

And oops:

Republican executive Randall Casseday of the conservative Washington Times newspaper pleaded guilty to soliciting sex from a 13-year old girl on the internet.

And oops:

Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.

"...rightly assuming that all criminals are Democrats."

And oops:

Ted Bundy: He was a handsome, charming, urbane and extrovert graduate, who did charity work and campaigned for the Republican Party in the USA. Ted Bundy did not fit the bill as a serial killer.

And oops:

His (Timothy McVeigh) only known affiliations are as a registered Republican in his New York days

And oops:

Former Congressman Bill Janklow(R-SD) Convicted and jailed for killing a man with his car after blowing through a stopsign at a high rate of speed.

And oops:

Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham (R-CA)
Probed for bribery regarding financial ties with and favors for defense firm MZM. Pleaded guilty to tax evasion, conspiracy, Nov. 28, 2005.

And oops:

Gov. John Rowland (R-CT)
Convicted, imprisoned 2004 for accepting free renovations to his vacation cottage as well as charter flights and vacations from a state contractor, and defrauding the Internal Revenue Service by not paying taxes on the free services.

And oops:

Former Republican Rep. Bob Ney was sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison Friday for trading political favors for golf trips, campaign donations and other gifts in the Jack Abramoff lobbying scandal.

"...rightly assuming that all criminals are Democrats."

"...the depressing collective perspective of the left."

Real depressing:

US Senate: Majority Democratic
US House: Majority Democratic (including TX-22: Democratic)
Governorships: Majority Democratic
State Legislatures: Majority Democratic
State Legislators: Majority Democratic
Missouri ballot measure on stem cell research: Passed
South Dakota ballot measure banning all abortions: failed

... and ...

The GOP failed to pickup a single House or Senate seat formerly held by a Democrat - the first time a major party has failed in such a spectacular manner since 1980.

... and ...

Not a single Democratic incumbent at the state or federal level lost their seat.

There is nothing unusual about a Judge offering a young offender the choice between jail or the Army. This alternative is more effective than jail and been around for a long time. Its called being given a second chance.

truthhurts

such examples

Are you implying all five of those lobcocks are waivered soldiers? Show me. I am compelled to tell you that all I see from you is opinion that is based on seemly how you feel. Have you ever served (trained etc.) with either kind of soldier. Do you even know any?

Felons can usually vote after serving their time. Somebody else go look it up (again).

A General Accounting Office report that looked at attrition from 1990 to 1993 found that service members who were granted moral waivers were more likely to be discharged from the Air Force because of misconduct.

Law enforcement officials report that the military is now "allowing more applicants with gang tattoos," the Chicago Sun-Times reports, "because they are under the gun to keep enlistment up."

Earlier this year, it was reported that an expected transfer of 10,000 to 20,000 troops to Fort Bliss, Texas, caused FBI and local law enforcement to fear a turf war between "members of the FolkNation gang ... (and) a criminal group that is already well-established in the area, Barrio Azteca." The New York Sun wrote that, according to one FBI agent, "FolkNation, which was founded in Chicago and includes several branches using the name Gangster Disciples, has gained a foothold in the Army."

Folks, only 3 of 10 citizens between the ages of 18 and 30 meets the requirements to enlist.

In July, a study by the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks racist and right-wing militia groups, found that because of pressing manpower concerns, "large numbers of neo-Nazis and skinhead extremists" are now serving in the military

and has been proven those with moral waivers are more likely to be kicked out for misconduct.

Missouri ballot measure on stem cell research: Passed


Stem Cell research in 2006 was the same as the GOPs Anti Gay Marriage initiative in 2004... Both were highly unethical, but I have to applaud both. They got the voters out...

Republicans made it sound like Gays would destroy America and it brought out the Evangelicals by the millions...

Democrats made it sound like they could cure everything from Alzheimers to cancer and it brought out millions for them too...

Both were lies, both exploited a vulnerable group... but that's politics... you gotta love it.

"...but that's politics... you gotta love it."

Isn't that the truth, Rob!

Hans

A new brigade, the 122nd Fighting Cryps will soon be heading to Iraq followed by the 123rd Belligerent Bloods.

truthhurts

www.sfgate.com

Op-ed piece

General Accounting Office report

Show me.

3 of 10 citizens

Where did this piece of misinformation come from?

Southern Poverty Law Center

Please, no agenda with this organization?

Dont forget the 124th KKK Corps.

Iraq is beginning to look like an episode of OZ

Dont forget the 124th KKK Corps.

Iraq is beginning to look like an episode of OZ

there are none so blind as those who will not see.

we admit more felons and those with serious misdemeanors.

that will lead to more misconduct says I

MSG says prove it.

self evident says I

if you want to call the Baltimore sun and the chicago Sun times and the SF chronicle liars, fine.

gee US military doesnt either study or publish stories about increase in misconduct due to increase in moral waivers, imagine that

but that's politics... you gotta love it.


Or really despise it.

Ok boys and girls, here is a bottom line. No matter what one may believe, a war has started on your watch. The military was ordered to perform a mission that they neither asked for nor can they refuse. Said mission is what you the American people supported.

truthhurts, you are bitching about what kind of troops are fighting your dirty little war. Amazing. Any and all blame lies else where (from the military). I think it is mostly with yourselves.

You can enlist.

Unlikely...

Under the new policy, Asthma is only disqualifying if it occurs after the applicant's 13th birthday.

along with...

Applicants who've experienced asthma or reactive airway disease after age 13 will require all medical documentation. Waivers may still be considered, depending on the applicant's medical history and possibly results from a pulmonary function test.

If I could hide from them that I was just in the ER a month back for a prednizone shot and that I'm on a daily mediciation, yeah, maybe, but I doubt they would consider me elligible for waivers.

"Said mission is what you the American people supported."

Can't wait to hear Larry's response to this assertion.

Something along the lines of "wrongo" and "do try again," I believe.

Hans

fighting MY war? hardly. I have not asked for nor supported this war since its inception in the 1990's.

I do not hold the military responsible, they have been handed a shit sandwich. I admire the way they have performed for the most part (abu graib and similar incidents as exceptions).

I do not hold the recruiters responsible, again the shit sandwich.

I hold accountable those politicians who have placed us in this catch 22.

Something along the lines of "wrongo" and "do try again," I believe.

Hans

Posted by Hans


don't forget everyone's favorite: "Please do educate yourself"

Who can't get enough of that golden oldie

I hold accountable those politicians who have placed us in this catch 22.

Posted by truthhurts


Damn Clintons...

once again msg

please refer to Chicago SUn Times article, Baltimore Sun and SF chronicle articles. Do you refute there statements?

Are you calling them liars?

Are you saying the NY Times is in error when they printed:

"A General Accounting Office report that looked at attrition from 1990 to 1993 found that service members who were granted moral waivers were more likely to be discharged from the Air Force because of misconduct."

If you cannot accept that as evidence then you are hopelessly partisan.

clinton invaded iraq?

It just isn't fair that all the billions have already been stolen before the convicted thieves get to go to Iraq.

clinton invaded iraq?

Posted by truthhurts


She authorized it

"Right?"
--ZULU

Right.

clinton invaded iraq?

Posted by truthhurts


And he failed for 8 years to reach a diplomatic solution to end the possibility of any future hostilities with Iraq.

She authorized it

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole


hmm, I thought she authorized bush to act responsibly in dealing with Iraq. Something he SOLELY and SINGULARLY did not.

"Were any of them reelected to ofice?"

Don't know, don't care.

I wasn't the one who made the absurd statement "...rightly assuming that all criminals are Democrats."

I was just debunking it.

"A Liberal actually elevates themselves in the Liberal community (a'la Gerry Studds) and is certain to be reelected."

One word: Democracy.

"Conservatives go to jail, Liberals just smile and go on."

Wrong.

Hans

Rob, speaking of the Clintons, I posted a good story on the back page about Hillary paying for endorsements. Man I can't stand the Clintons. I despise them as much as I despise the Bush family.

And he failed for 8 years to reach a diplomatic solution to end the possibility of any future hostilities with Iraq.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole



funny how being contained those future hostilities were only a result of bush's actions.

Army Admits 8,100 Criminals

It's called an Army? Here in Los Angeles 8,100 criminals with guns are called gangs.


Posted by CalifChris


Here in Colorado, people like you are called Noble Liberals. You think your above it all.

Curiosity compels me to ask whom am I partisan for (or against)?


I dont care, you are blind to all evidence contrary to your position, if that is defense of the military fine.

But the fact is that these policies will result in more criminals in our military which will result in more misconduct, misconduct in war zone, thereby putting more of our troops at risk and further undermining our efforts at pacifying Iraq.

you may not care because you want to uphold the honor of the military but that does not make it any less true.

truth hurts

""She authorized it""

And she just may pay a price for it. Many Democrats are not on the Hillary band wagon because of it though most of us do realize she did vote after being provided purposefully distorted intelligence by the administration. After the Libby trial that is just undeniable. After the Inspector General's report it is a fact.

hmm, I thought she authorized bush to act responsibly in dealing with Iraq. Something he SOLELY and SINGULARLY did not.

Posted by truthhurts

Hmmm... well let's look at her words before the Iraq war and see if you can say she wasn't all for war...

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.

~Senator Hillary Clinton, 10/02/2002


She even says Hussein has a relationship with Al Qaeda! That he was giving aid and comfort to our greatest enemy...

But she wansn't for war! Nah... just a stern warning...

DAMN YOU FACTS!!!!

funny how being contained those future hostilities were only a result of bush's actions.

Posted by truthhurts


Operation Desert Fox ring a bell?

Fucking facts and all their biases!

truthhurts

all evidence

Words, little man, a lot of words. Your extrapolation abilities seem to be in fine order. Take a small fact or opinion and blow it up to suit your own agenda. Facts, reality, common sense be damned. Carry on little man.

MSG_Tripps out.

why dont you look at what was authorized, you know the whole diplomacy thing the whole enforce UN Resolution thing, stuf bush ignored

msg i am sure YOU have problems with the GAO, but whatever, none so blind as those who WILL not see.

""That he was giving aid and comfort to our greatest enemy... ""

Saddam never gave aid and comfort to Al Quaeda that could possibly compare to the aid and comfort of diverting the troops from Afghanistan to Iraq. I am sure Osama was quite grateful to Dumbya.
I think he personally thanked him on one of his many video tapes.

"(In LA) 8,100 criminals with guns are called gangs"

In the Republican Party they're known as Libertarians.

The military has been proven effective thousands and thousands of times over to be one of the most effective methods of rehabilitating people. Many of these people will get far more structure and discipline in the Army then they would ever get from a probation officer. If you offer no second chances to people then they will most assuredly become far worse people in life when they have noting else to look forward to. I can't say all of these people will be rehabilitated but I strongly feel the Armed services will have a much greater success then the current prison and parole system.

Saddam never gave aid and comfort to Al Quaeda that could possibly compare to the aid and comfort of diverting the troops from Afghanistan to Iraq.

Tell that to United States Senator Hillary Clinton... she said Hussein and Al Qaeda had a relationship... not me.

byrdman

I can't say all of these people will be rehabilitated.... greater success then the current prison and parole system.

These are very outstanding points.

rightly assuming that all criminals are Democrats.

Posted by vernon at 2007-02-16 09:27 AM

Vern, I didn't know that Duke Cunningham, Bob Ney and Jack Abramoff were Dems.

You would think that you would be too busy watching your 401(k) earn your stated 200% return to make up shit like this.

she said Hussein and Al Qaeda had a relationship... not me.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2007-02-16 11:26 AM | Reply

Rob,

I don't recall Hillary ever saying those words. Perhaps you could post a link?

I know the administration had said over and over in justification of their illegal war in Iraq.

Rob,

Never mind I found them.

But of course, it is very easy to cherry pick one sentence out of a speech.

What about Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and other countries that have and continue to support Al Queda? Why don't Bushling attack them as well?

Hell, Bushole was going to sell our ports to UAE which extensive ties to Al Queda.

"Let's put it this way: Money trumps peace, sometimes," Bush said.

I used to hear about judges who would offer to drop charges if a guy would enlist, but I never had any personal knowledge of that happening.

OTOH, when I arrived at boot camp they put us in an auditorium and passed around cardboard boxes telling everyone to place any weapons they had in the box.

There were all sorts of knifes and even brass knuckles in that box.

No shortage of rowdies in the military. But it doesn't take long to square them away. Myself included.

TH,

Thanks, but I had already found the October 2002 speech in which Hillary said that.

"What to know more? ...we can raise the cumulative IQ of Mike Siesel's readers to 100!!!" truthhurts

Where did this come from? A link back to this page???

What about Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and other countries that have and continue to support Al Queda? Why don't Bushling attack them as well?

Posted by JimmyWallback


Hillary Clinton and the rest of the Congress only authorized him to take out Iraq for their WMD and dealings with Al Qaeda.

MikeSiesel

boot camp.... No shortage of rowdies in the military.

That is why they are called Jarheads. After the Corps empties all the shit out of your head (leaving an empty jar), they will refill it. (I am sure you know.)

"The difference between Liberals and Conservatives is once a Liberal is convicted of a perversion or bribery they aren't reelected and do feel shame.

Posted by zulu at 2007-02-16 10:47 AM | Reply"

Holy shizz! Stop the fucking presses! Zulu finally posted something true! I had to read it a few times to make sure, but he really did it. Bravo, Zulu! There is (a bit of) hope for you yet!

"Holy shizz! Stop the fucking presses! Zulu finally posted something true! I had to read it a few times to make sure, but he really did it. Bravo, Zulu! There is (a bit of) hope for you yet!"
--MONTECORE

Tell that to Kennedy and Studds.

""Hillary Clinton and the rest of the Congress only authorized him to take out Iraq for their WMD and dealings with Al Qaeda.""

So, Rob, then you agree with Hillary, Reid and other Dems that Dumbya does not have the authority to go into Iran without Congressional approval. I'm pleasantly surprised.

So, Rob, then you agree with Hillary, Reid and other Dems that Dumbya does not have the authority to go into Iran without Congressional approval.

I guess it depends on the scale of the military operation.

Something like Iraq (Which I in no way support doing in Iran), yeah that would need congressional approval.

Something like Operation Desert Fox from 1998 doesn't need the congress.

congressional approval, yes lets discuss that.

what UN resolution authorized the invasion of iraq in March 2003?

What's that? You mean no resolution authorized that? You mean the UN Resolution 1441 REQUIRED coming back to the UN? You mean to say that it meant NO AUTOMATIC TRIGGER?

You mean to say there was supposed to be another UN Resolution? Say it aint so.

Well I am sure bush didnt believe that, I mean its not like he drafted a resolution saying SH was in material breach? what? he DID draft said resolution?

Well I am sure it was just a historical document, its not like he intended on getting the UN to vote on it.


What? You mean he actually intended on calling for a vote on it? no way,well something must have gotten in his way?

...NO MATTER WHAT...


the real truthhurts

Something like Operation Desert Fox from 1998 doesn't need the congress.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole



you mean enforcing the no fly zones,

well at least the no fly zones were authorized by the UN.

what? they werent? well knock me over with a feather.

would you like me to state that clinton's actions were also illegal? fine, no problemo.

now of course clinton's actions did not involve ground combat and the resultant deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

of course one should keep in mind that POTUS authority over strikes against a country vs invasion are completely different issues. but why let the constitution matter.

TROOPER

Wow Chris, so once you've paid your debt to society (by o say, picking up some trash and paying a fine) you are still a criminal? What if you were a juvie when it happened?

I totally agree with you on young guys -- I'm talking maybe 17-19 or so years old -- being given a choice of signing up with the military or going to some juvie camp. I think for them the military would be an excellent choice because going to prison will only make them come out learning more criminal behavior than when they went in.-- Unless one is some totally hardened and corrupt thug -- usually as an 18 or 19 year old kid you haven't done too much on the wrong side of the law and one's criminal behavior is certainly not as ingrained as it would be in a guy 30 plus years old.

But NOW, Bush is letting guys sign up for the Army as a new recruit up to age 42. By that age you can have a rap sheet as long as your arm. I believe that guys who are say in their 30's and have a rap sheet showing misdemeanors and felonies for years are not going to change stripes very easily. At age 18 that's another story.

I don't quarrel with giving these recruits a chance. I only wish society would take a similar view towards youth crime in general.

For example, many of our prisons are overflowing these days due to misguided "three strikes" laws as well as incarceration of drug users (as opposed to pushers). Young people convicted of crime, especially from underprivileged backgrounds, rarely get the guidance and screening and assistance to help them adapt and become better members of society. Some youngsters are hardened criminals who should get the book thrown at them. But many are redeemable if an effort was made.

While many right wingers are happy to give someone a second chance to become a US soldier, when it comes to young people and crime in general, conservatives happily restrict funding for criminal rehabilitative services, drug abuse counseling, etc.

To me, this smacks of opportunism. We need bodies in Iraq. Lets bend a little. But at home, lets throw them in a cell and throw away the key.

I hate crime as much as anyone. But the US incarceration rates are the highest of developed nations. And recidivism is rampant - our jails and prisons are basically universities where inmates hone their criminal skills.

That is a national shame.

now of course clinton's actions did not involve ground combat and the resultant deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.
Are you sure? Sometimes the action one takes is "lack of action".
The Battle of Mogadishu led to a profound shift in American foreign policy, as the Clinton administration became increasingly reluctant to use military intervention in Third World conflicts, (such as failing to halt the massacre of an estimated 800,000 to 1,071,000 ethnic Tutsis and moderate Hutus by Hutu militia groups in Rwanda in 1994)..., and affected America's actions in the Balkans during the later half of the 1990s. President Clinton preferred to use the "air power alone" tactic and hesitated to use U.S. ground troops in fighting the Bosnian Serb Army in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1995 and the Yugoslav Army in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (specifically, the province of Kosovo) in 1999, out of fear of losing American soldiers in combat, as well as fear of repeating what happened in Mogadishu in 1993.

Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda movement was involved in training and funding of Aidid's men. In his 2001 book, Holy War, Inc., CNN reporter Peter Bergen interviewed Bin Laden who affirmed these allegations. According to Bergen, Bin Laden asserted that fighters affiliated with his group were involved in killing American troops in Somalia in 1993, a claim he had earlier made to the Arabic newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi. According to CNN, al-Qaeda claimed to have supplied a large number of Soviet-designed rocket-propelled grenade launchers (RPGs) to Aidid's fighters, and instructed them in ways to modify the RPGs to make them more effective against helicopters.[citation needed]

Four and one half years after the Battle of Mogadishu, in an interview in May 1998 [2], bin Laden disparaged the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Somalia, after eighteen American soldiers were killed and two of them had their bodies dragged through the streets.

This inspired later large-scale terrorist actions such as the first bombing of the World Trade Center, the bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, and the 9/11 attacks.

OUCH!...

The Armed Services have always let those with criminal records join. It just depends on the severity of the offense. For instance, rape, Hell no, no waivers for that but waivers are granted for most other offenses, especially if it did not involve the harming of another person.

As of November 2006, there were approximately 140,000 US troops in Iraq. We no longer know what the breakdown is between active and reserve forces (including National Guard). The last time those data were available, there were 90,000 active forces and 50,000 reserve.


Approximately 1.4 million personnel are currently on active duty in the military with an additional 1,259,000 personnel in the seven reserve components (456,000 of whom are in the Army and Air National Guard).

Less than 10% of our armed forces are deployed in Iraq.

But we are thin on troops for Iraq? Maybe I need to be educated on 'government mathmatics".

This inspired later large-scale terrorist actions such as the first bombing of the World Trade Center, the bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, and the 9/11 attacks.

OUCH!...

Posted by slicksterWilly at 2007-02-16 05:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

So if Bin Laden is all on Clinton's shoulders as you like to try and imply, then I guess we're just waiting for Muqtada Al-Sadr to re-appear 5 years from now to blow up something over here? After all, we did have him surrounded twice and both times we let him walk away.

Come to think of it, Bush also let Bin Laden walk away, even AFTER he toppled the WTC.

"Bush also let Bin Laden walk away"

It's late October 2004, a few days before the election, and Osama bin Laden has just released a long anti-Bush jeremiad. At the CIA, the men and women who know bin Laden best, who have been tracking al-Qaeda practically without rest for the previous three years, are sitting around a table discussing what it means:

What they'd learned over nearly a decade is that bin Laden speaks only for strategic reasons -- and those reasons are debated with often startling depth inside the organization's leadership. Their assessments, at day's end, are a distillate of the kind of secret, internal conversations that the American public, and by association the wider world community, were not sanctioned to hear: strategic analysis.

Today's conclusion: bin Laden's message was clearly designed to assist the President's reelection.

At the five o'clock meeting, once various reports on latest threats were delivered, John McLaughlin opened the issue with the consensus view: "Bin Laden certainly did a nice favor today for the President."

Around the table, there were nods....Jami Miscik talked about how bin Laden -- being challenged by Zarqawi's rise -- clearly understood how his primacy as al Qaeda's leader was supported by the continuation of his eye-to-eye struggle with Bush. "Certainly," she offered, "he would want Bush to keep doing what he's doing for a few more years."

But an ocean of hard truths before them -- such as what did it say about U.S. policies that bin Laden would want Bush reelected -- remained untouched....On that score, any number of NSC principals could tell you something so dizzying that not even they will touch it: that Bush's ratings [in the U.S.] track with bin Laden's rating in the Arab world.

SLICKSTER WILLY

You blame Clinton for Somalia. You need a history refresher:

The fact: Clinton did not sent the troops. George H. W. Bush did. On December 4, 1992, Bush ordered 25,000 U.S. troops into Somalia.

...Bush sent the troops in a month after losing the election, and one and a half months before Clinton took office, knowing full well that he would get the initial glory and that Clinton would get stuck with the quagmire. />

In fact, Clinton's handling of Somalia beats Bush Jr.'s actions in Iraq to hell. Clinton was anxious to bring the troops back, he didn't have to wait until the whole country was screaming at him before he decided to do that.

And unlike [Daddy] Bush, Clinton was able to get the U.N. forces into Somalia, cutting U.S. troops down to 4,200. Unfortunately, he could not pull them all out--despite conservative sneers that Democrats like to cut and run, Clinton stood ground with the U.N. forces as long as it seemed that good could be done--and so, naturally, conservatives lashed out at him when a mission went wrong in late 1993, where eighteen U.S. soldiers died in the mission that went so famously wrong. Soon after, Clinton ordered a withdrawal, the mission no longer publicly tenable, but U.S. troops still held ground there, staying until late March, 1994.

It was a fiasco, but it was a Bush fiasco; Clinton simply did the best he could with what he had been given.

I support the government use of criminals, felons and high school dropouts joining the military. If the government believes it can turn these people around and make them productive members of our society rather than creating a greater burden to this country, I firmly support it.

If our society can turn losers into hero's and to defend our values rather than take liberties away from others, I will thank it for a very long time

I support the government use of criminals, felons and high school dropouts joining the military. If the government believes it can turn these people around and make them productive members of our society rather than creating a greater burden to this country, I firmly support it.

If our society can turn losers into hero's and to defend our values rather than take liberties away from others, I will thank it for a very long time

CALIFCHRIS

Great post up there (7:16 pm).

The far righties tend to be way into revisionist history, rather than look at events as they actually occured.

Also, thank you again for the 'Some Gave All' threads you run. We know it takes time to do. All those men and women deserve to be remembered as individuals and not a mere number. When you read someone's story, their death suddenly takes on a whole different light.

Sadly, I rarely see Bush lovers ever leave a post.

Guess it's easier for them to shrug them off as being part of an ever increasing number KIA since "Mission Accomplished' rather than sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, sisters, and brothers of loved ones who will grieve the rest of their lives, and who's lives will never be the same again.

All this while far right posters here defend and defend a failed president, a failed and tragically mismanaged war, and a failed policy Bush hangs onto as tightly as Dick Cheney..

I support the government use of criminals, felons and high school dropouts joining the military. If the government believes it can turn these people around and make them productive members of our society rather than creating a greater burden to this country, I firmly support it.

The idiocy is too much. Criminals, felons and high school dropouts are too stupid to know they are being used as cannon fodder, and easy to train to kill without conscience.

It was a fiasco, but it was a Bush fiasco; Clinton simply did the best he could with what he had been given.

Nice revision of history.

Just a refresher for you!

In September 1993, General Powell asked Aspin to approve the request of the U.S. commander in Somalia for tanks and armored vehicles for his forces. Aspin turned down the request.

OUCH!!!

Shortly thereafter Aideed's forces in Mogadishu killed 18 U.S. soldiers and wounded more than 75 in attacks that also resulted in the shooting down of three U.S. helicopters and the capture of one pilot.

I would rather they be used for cannon fodder to fight for what the President views as a priority for this country, than having them create a burden for society.

Personally I don't feel a convicted felon should ever get out of prison. Statistics show most will commit more felonies when they get out. I'm for one strike and you're out or dead. All execution are by firing squad-one bullet 6 blanks.

I never believed in the Iraqi war at all and knew the President would eventually get raked. I'm surprised it took the Democratic Party 6 years to figure it out rather than 1 second. At the same time, if Americans are going to die, I would rather it be those than those than the rest of America.

Weather you agree or disagree (as I do) with the Iraqi war or with Presidential policy; I would like to see anyone argue that losing convicted felons from our country is worse than losing those from the rest of the US population as a whole.

If those felons are going to turn their lives around and grow a brain, I see this as the perfect environment to turn their lives around. The fact is, as a percentage there is less than a 1% chance any US soldier will die.

In a battle of intelligence, I never attack an unarmed man

I would rather they be used for cannon fodder to fight for what the President views as a priority for this country, than having them create a burden for society.

There is a man who refuses to think for himself. Despots like people like Harrier.

If those felons are going to turn their lives around and grow a brain, I see this as the perfect environment to turn their lives around.

Ah yes, they learn to follow orders without question.

Here in Colorado, people like you are called Noble Liberals. You think your above it all.

Posted by LastAmerican at 2007-02-16 10:57 AM

Here in LA, people like you are called motherfuckers, so what's your point?

CLINTONISKING

motherfuckers

The point may be, (both you motherfuckers) how you deal with yourself and this here cyberspace thing. ("Lights out in your head, dip shits?")

In September 1993, General Powell asked Aspin to approve the request of the U.S. commander in Somalia for tanks and armored vehicles for his forces. Aspin turned down the request.

OUCH!!!

Shortly thereafter Aideed's forces in Mogadishu killed 18 U.S. soldiers and wounded more than 75 in attacks that also resulted in the shooting down of three U.S. helicopters and the capture of one pilot.

Posted by slicksterWilly at 2007-02-17 01:41 PM


I see you didn't respond to the POINT dummy---as usual you deflect and lie. It was BUSH who sent the troops in---It was Clinton who got the troops out.

All deaths and fuck ups in Somalia have to go to Bush since it was his party that sent them in. Had we stayed there under Clintons decisions, then the fuck ups would have been his. But Clinton got us out before it turned into another Iraq or Viet Nam. I quess you think we should have thrown thousands of lives away in Somalia too---would you feel safer then? Try to respond to the whole post sometime dummy--you might gain some credibility, and even learn something.

"The Army Rangers involved in the "Black Hawk down" situation were not part of the UN initiative."


Why would they have been there if not for Bushs decision to send troops to Somalia?