When mercenaries turn on each other, it's not pretty.

The company has appealed in several state and federal courts, reaching U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts in October.

Roberts denied Blackwater's request, but former Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr filed a petition last month to bring the matter before the entire court.

Shows just what type of individual Mr. Starr really is, doesn't it? No surprise, he spent years trying to deny legal rights to a sitting President, so why is there a shock that he'd lobby against dead mercenary's survivors and their attorney to keep Blackwater's alledged break of contract suit out of the courtrooms?

The sharks are feeding.

The gruesome scene, caught on camera and broadcast worldwide, prompted the U.S. military to launch a three-week siege of the restive city west of Baghdad.

If it had prompted us to launch a complete annihilation of Fallujah this early in the war, this mess might have never gotten out of control.

"It's better to be feared than loved."

Kenneth Starr and Blackwater USA. Perfect bedfellows.

"It's better to be feared than loved."

No. No it is not. Anyone who thinks so is sub-human.

"It's better to be feared than loved."

Posted by Redman

The words of Tyrants.

"It's better to be feared than loved."

Posted by Redman at 2007-01-20 11:12 AM

No, it's not! When you are loved, you are respected. When you are feared, there is no respect!

I'd rather be loved and respected than feared and rejected!

The words of Tyrants.

Actually, the words of a 14th century political philosopher. In the case of Islam, this would be the applicable time period.

I'd rather be loved and respected than feared and rejected!

But if someone is going to hate me regardless of what I try to do, then I better make sure they fear me as well.

No. No it is not. Anyone who thinks so is sub-human

Or has studied history, philosophy and pyschology, and understands when dealing with a primative, 14th century society like the Middle East that you need to play by rules that they will understand.

Unless, of course you think that people who would behead innocent victims should be dealt with by 21st century lawsuits.

"It's better to be feared than loved."

As Saddam said. That worked out real well.

"...and understands when dealing with a primative, 14th century society like the Middle East that you need to play by rules that they will understand."

Like Barney Fife says, "Andy, ya gotta fight fire with fire!"

Stupid redneck.

As Saddam said. That worked out real well.

Funny, I've heard a lot of people on this site claim he was right.

Stupid redneck.

Sure Dave, whatever you say.

Redman-
You do remember that the war in Iraq is a war to liberate people from a tyrant that felt that it was better to be feared than loved, and that "annihilation" of the populace could be done from an office in a bunker right here in the USA, without all this messy business?

After seing the way the President and other private contractors are operating, this morally and ethically repugnant manner in doing business is sickening. Something is clearly wrong when the owners of a business resort to this type of tactic to trying to bring down those who are exposing the true reality of cost cutting.

Redman-
"Unless, of course you think that people who would behead innocent victims should be dealt with by 21st century lawsuits."

Quite the contrary, Redman. It is incumbent upon all right-thinking duckspeakers to express the desire to annihilate all those in the same region, with the same skin color, the same funny-sounding names and the same religious text in order to convince them that they should become civilized like you.

Unless, of course you think that people who would behead innocent victims should be dealt with by 21st century lawsuits.

Posted by Redman

As we all know, beheading someone is so primitive. Dropping a bomb on someone's house is much more civilized.


Funny, I've heard a lot of people on this site claim he was right.

Posted by Redman

No you haven't. Why do you need to lie?

Redman, WTF does your argument have to do with the court case, except to justify the counterclaim?

Personally I doubt that any attorney can be sued for filing a legal action. If the suit has no merit then it would be dismissed. Apparently the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court thinks it should got to trial.

And the families are shielded because the suit is in the name of the estate. So I think the real reason for the counterclaim is exactly what is stated. It's a means of obfuscating and delaying the action before the court.

My opinion is that these guys had the training to assess the situation and either accept or decline their orders. You have to remember that Blackwater requires 8 years of experience in the military or armed security to be considered for the job. At least one of these guys was a Seal, and I expect the others had special forces or SWAT training.

Still, you have to wonder what they were doing there when the army was pulling out.

What was really said was a Prince should strive to be loved AND feared.

lets see...the way i understand it...they signed a contract stating they would not sue,,,,,they knew they were going into iraq,,,,were paid accordingly......so if they knew ...which they did...about iraq...were well paid,,,which they were,,and signed a contract not to sue if they died...which they did...why dont the judge toss this POS lawsuit out?...oh thats right judge is a lawyer and money rules not the law,,,,what a non story

Guess what Cheka?

They who signed the contract are not suing.

The suit is on behalf of their estate.

While the families are surely for it, the representative of the estate would be negligent not to investigate and pursue any legal option that would augment (love that word) or protect the assets of the estate. It's a legal duty.

Smell the charred corpses? It smells like unbridled capitalism.

I'm with MikeSiesel on this one. The guys who agreed not to sue Blackwater are deader than George Bush' dreams of conquest. Let the families sue.

pardon me mike does any of that matter? the dead signed the contract,,,or does not a contract signed and notarized matter?

its contract law the way i understand it and this is a grandstand play for more money,,,not that i blame them for the try but a judge should toss this in a heartbeat and charge all court costs to the lawyers not the families who brought this up

It's tough buying a cheap, dependable, expendable Mercenary these days.

"does any of that matter? "

Let's say these guys didn't die but were seriously injured. The contract they signed would be definitive unless they could prove malice, fraud, or some such thing.

The estate is a different party or entity.

It represents the heirs. Widows and orphans. Mothers and fathers. Anyone who has claim to the estate.

For instance, in the case of minors, to protect their interest, the court assigns a guardian ad litem who may file a motion to initiate the suit and the estate representative (executor or executrix) would be compelled to do so.

Granted the lawyers may not have the most honorable intents as they surely will receive fees if successful, but unless you understand Probate Law and standing to bring a suit then you're really just arguing your personal belief.

Remember, according to the allegedly liberal media these men were "contractors", not mercenaries.

"Go Blackwater
Keep on rollin'
Mississipi moon won't you keep on
Shining on me"

Damn! Spud is hate these Blackwater fucksticks!

Not just fer launching this vicious, vindictive counter-suit against the attorney for the estate of these dead mercenaries or fer trying to keep their bullshit hidden behind the flag of national security.

Not just cos these evil corporate ass-wipes have retained Kenny "The Korrupter" Starr in their defense.

These are all good reasons to loathe but Spud has got one more.

They also managed to ruin a perfectly good Doobie Brothers song fer Spud.

Why anyone should be suprised by these mercenary cut throat tactics from a bunch of (let's admit it) mercenaries and cut throats is a mystery to Spud.

Be Well.

PS Question fer Redman...

"It's better to be feared than loved."

Them guys on them planes on 9/11...

Would you put them in yer love category or yer fear category?

"It's tough buying a cheap, dependable, expendable Mercenary these days."

Not really. Most of the 20,000 "security" contractors are foreign nationals, meaning that they are not from the US.

From what I've heard these companies pay up to $1000 a day. But they're not going to need that much to lure some ex-soldier from Thailand or Sri Lanka to do the werk.

Dethspud, KA-ZING! Nice comeback to Redman. You're right on the ball, as usual.

Cheka, as far as I know none of the dead men are violating their contract. None of them are suing. Of course their families didn't sign any contract with Blackwater so they can sue them all they want.

Blackwater should have expected that the men they hire as mercenaries probably have relatives with the same mindset.

While the families are surely for it, the representative of the estate would be negligent not to investigate and pursue any legal option that would augment (love that word) or protect the assets of the estate. It's a legal duty.

Posted by MikeSiesel

What a cop-out. The sharks are feeding, don't get in their way.

Blackwater should have expected that the men they hire as mercenaries probably have relatives with the same mindset.

LOL, Indeed Mercenary!

What a cop-out. The sharks are feeding, don't get in their way.

Better sharks than a vulture like you picking on the corpses of the dead, by decrying their survivors from seeking their legal rights!

The plantiffs must show negligence in court in order to win any judgement. Their entire case rests upon proving that Blackwater didn't live up to its end of the contract to the deceased. The latest Bush-picked Chief Justice ruled in favor of the plantiffs, and the righties only find fault with the plantiff's attorney? How completely facsist of them. Too bad the military tribunals don't have jurisdiction for this case, huh? We already know you don't have hearts, now you've proven you don't have brains either!

"What a cop-out."

I could probably find more than a few cases where the guardian ad litem has brought a suit on behalf of a minor child against their own mother.

Matters of law.

And do you want to say that Eric Prince, former SEAL, who inherited a billion dollars from his father, and owns Blackwater Security Services is some lame bait?

Time to re-sight that scope.

This is fucking disgusting...Blackwater may well prevail considering their contacts lead right into the White House and we know what kind of bloodsuckers the SCOTUS is...Cheney only has to threaten Scalia wiht another duck hunting trip...

I am writing to my Senator and Representative today...

Blackwater , Scumwater....

"I am writing to my Senator and Representative today..."

Yeah, and ask them to impeach Judge Roberts.

LOL

Redman, WTF does your argument have to do with the court case

Nothing. I just felt like whining.

Them guys on them planes on 9/11...

Would you put them in yer love category or yer fear category?

Don't think they loved us or feared us.

By the way, I'm sure you know this but some others may not. The quote is from a book called "The Prince", by Nicol Machiavelli, which was a guideline for ruling a medieval city-state published in 1505.

"Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with."

I can always count on quoting this text to result in some interesting attacks on myself as a human being, rather than anyone actually discussing the value of the idea in certain medieval contexts; i.e. radical Islam and the Middle East.

Be well, Spud.

Redman-
The quote is from a book called "The Prince", by Nicol Machiavelli, which was a guideline for ruling a medieval city-state published in 1505.

All advice I'm sure you would find edifying, but you haven't really swayed me on this one.

Big Red,

"The Prince"

Yup, Spud's got that one. It's right beside "Art of War" on Spuds bookshelf.

Ya know...

"Machiavellian" aint really a compliment.

It implies ruthlessness and deviousness.

Amorality if not actual immorality.

Weasel clever but not people smart.

"it is safer to be feared"

A debatable point sez Spud.

Here's another quote about fear that Spud quite likes.

It's from a comic book.

"People shouldn't fear their governments
Governments should fear their people"

Alan Moore "V for Vendetta"

Spud is aware of the schism in the modern muslim world beween the violent, backwards, barbarous flintstonian jihadists minority and the majority of peace luffing, live and live live moderates.

This is a real problem and Spud sez it must be confronted by a two pronged approach.

The carrot must be used as well as the stick. Dumbya's all stick/no carrot (all fear/ no love) policies in the ME (Wif the exception of his pals in SA, of course) is creating more jihadists than before, who are, in turn, silencing the more numerous moderates.

This trend must and can be reversed.

But not by picking up a bigger stick.

You can only scare people until their backs are to the wall at which point they have no choice but to turn and fight.

Too many backs to too many walls in the ME, unneccesarily.

Spud is no discount the problem of Radical Islam.

Spud is only argue about approaches and tactics.

Be Well.

"Dethspud, KA-ZING!"

Yes, Spud is unfurl a banner behind Spud wot reads...

"Zinger Accomplished"

Now Spud is smile fer the camera...

Which, predictably enuff, breaks instantly upon taking in Spud earth-shatteringly ugly mug.

Hmmm... Spud is simply can't take a good picture.

This is largely why modern science refuses to recognise the existence of Dethspuds.

Apparently sasquatches got a similar problem.

Be Well.

ALWAYS cross out any "mandatory arbitration" clause in your contracts for home repair, medical procedures, -- anything. Arbitration judges are "rent a judges" and are usually retired judges that know the guys in big business and big business knows them. The average guy stands a much better chance in regular court which is why most contracts have the arbitration clause written in them because businesses stand a much better chance of winning if they screw up.

Spud - Have we not also tried love with these people? Do we not provide humanitarian aid everytime there is an earthquake in Iran, or a tsunami in Indonesia, or any other natural tragedy that might occur in the Muslim world? Did we not provide troops to protect Muslims from genocide in Kosovo? Do we not provide them with aid in the form of medicine, doctors and hospital supplies?

But they still hate us, and many of them want to see us dead simply because we are not muslim. Would I prefer that they love us? Sure. But until that happens, I would prefer that the ones who hate us also fear us.

BTW, "People shouldn't fear their governments, Governments should fear their people". I couldn't agree more.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have several of them as relatives and friends. One of their favorite quotes is "A contract is a license to sue".

This isn't a gleeful greedy warcry, it's a statement of fact that anyone signing a contract needs to understand. A contract specifies all the terms and conditions of a binding agreement. Any lawsuit either side brings will be based on the terms of the contract and whether or not they were met. Just because someone signs a contract doesn't mean they have no standing to sue, quite the contrary.

And where exactly did Blackwater and Prince get the idea that they were some sort of arm of the government? The're security contractors, nothing more. I think this is something that needs to be examined in a lot more detail, given Bush's extralegal enthusiasms.

And my 2 cents, neither fear nor love are any guarantees of safety. The difference is that people hate what they fear, and constantly plot against it. Fear can give you short term control, but it can't be maintained indefinitely.

Redman, I've never met a Muslim that wanted me dead just because I didn't follow Islam. I have met a Jew who felt it his job to interrogate me about what my relatives in Europe were doing during WW2. I've been yelled at by Christians and harassed by Hari Krishnas. Out of all the religious stripes out there the Muslims I met were always gentle, inquisitive and respectful.

I don't think anyone on this board really denies that Muslim extremists are violent and a threat to the West. Where everyone seems to differ is on how to deal with them. The vast majority of Muslims are no threat to the West at all, but if we treat them all like terrorists, evetually we'll just end up with a lot more terrorists.

Try a cancer analogy. The best way to destroy a tumor (Violent Muslim Extremists) is usually a combination of careful surgery, chemotherapy and constant monitoring. So far, we've just been hacking away at it with a big kitchen knife. Predictably, that's just made the problem worse.

So far, we've just been hacking away at it with a big kitchen knife. Predictably, that's just made the problem worse.

Posted by argh


Massive bleeding..........

The family did not sign the contract and can sue if they want. If Blackwater workers were suing, then it would be different.