What are these jobs that Americans will not do? Do they exist?

Americans shun pretty much any unskilled labor that requires them to get their hands dirty: landscaping, entry-level construction, picking fruits and vegetables

The refusal to do jobs is moving up the value chain. American workers appear to be less interested in some kinds of factory jobs.

Americans, it seems, are also less willing to take stressful jobs that require lots of training and long hours, and that require them to work in unpleasant environments. For example, the American Association of Colleges of Nursing is warning of a nursing shortage.

The Council on Graduate Medical Education suggested there could be a shortage of anywhere from 65,000 to 150,000 doctors in 2020.

Spending your days tethered to a computer is also work that many Americans avoid. The Information Technology Association of America notes that 77 percent of companies it polled said there was a shortage of qualified IT talent in the United States.

Americans haven't grown too wealthy and snooty for the kind of work that gets your hands dirty, or for nursing, or for computer programming. Rather, the people who have the skills to enter those fields also have opportunities and skills to enter other fields. And so they have to decide whether the rewards--monetary and psychological--of the opportunity before them are worth it. It's not so much that Americans aren't willing to pick fruit and become computer programmers. Rather, they aren't willing to do those jobs for the prevailing wages and benefits.

Every time I hear the line "Jobs Americans Won't Do", I ask "at what price"?

I mean, I may not like yard work, but if they're going to pay $1,000 a day, where's the shovel?

To paraphrase an old joke, we've determined what I am...now we're just negotiating the price.

Why it's so bad even illegal citizens aren't taking those dirty jobs. It's all the fault of those greedy capitalists who don't want to pay enough. Why doesn't government do something about this outrage. Oh that's right they are. They pay people not to work.

Seriously Mrcairo, this is silly.

Interesting there are any jobs Americans won't do, particularly since the unemployment rate is around 5%.

So in the realm of 5% of the jobs we are basing a major foot hold of our employment policies by.

Who does this favor, certainly not the worker.

Surely Crassus you know that the stats only count short term unemployment.

Surely Crassus you know that the stats only count short term unemployment.

Oh!!!! So long term unemployment is what .....................??????

Are you saying long term unemployment is much much higher than this supposed short term unemployment and this is why the corporate elites are trying to set our country's policies on this huge number.

Seriously Mrcairo, this is silly.

You've lost me.

I'm saying that the stats don't go beyond, I think, a year. Obviously there are people out of work much much longer. I've seen estimates that the real rate is around 10%. I have no idea what corporate elites are doing. I have no idea why they should care.

MrCairo
If an employer can't get labor to do dirty work, that's his problem. Period.

Seriously Mrcairo, this is silly.

You've lost me.

Posted by MrCairo at 2007-01-16 08:20 PM | Reply | Flag

As we all are in Rays' posts, they make no sense unless we move back in time about 150 years to just after slavery.

I wonder what a failed market looks like in the job world...........slavery!

I have no idea what corporate elites are doing. I have no idea why they should care.

I suppose it is the laborers who are complaining about jobs Americans won't do!!!!!!!!!

Blah blah blah. Americans have to work almost six months out of the year just to pay taxes and they are in debt over their heads and Crassus thinks there is no slavery. Is this what you call market success Crassus?

If an employer can't get labor to do dirty work, that's his problem. Period.

That's what the article says. Soooooo? I'm taking it from the article that those who will supply the dirty work are simply coming from the legal and illegal immigrant population more.

Nothing new about that - it is the history of the country.

This is the more intesting point I thought:

Americans work longer hours than Europeans--1,804 hours per worker for the United States in 2005, compared to 1,434 in Germany and 1,535 in France, according to the OECD.

Please do explain to me Crassus? What's in it for corporate elites? I'm asking you seriously.

Americans have to work almost six months out of the year just to pay taxes and they are in debt over their heads and Crassus thinks there is no slavery. Is this what you call market success Crassus?

Interesting, what have I lost in taxes. When it snows I get the streets sanded and cleaned with use of my tax dollars.

When my house catches fire I get the use of the firedepartment to put out that fire with the use of my taxes.

When I need the use of protection from a robber I get the police from the use of my taxes.

All those government run society serving organizations are not free and done with volunteering but seems you don't benefit from none of these.

Ray,

Do you drive? Are your roads paved? Is there public buses? How about libraries? What is it that you equate taxes to slavery?

What's in it for corporate elites Ray????

Hmmmm!!!! You can't figure this out.

How about lower wages for one. If an American won't shovel shit for 3 bucks and hour but a Mexican will who benefits?????????

Oh here we go with the basic services argument again. Well that settles it Crassus. Our government is run so efficiently that its worth working six months a year for those things. It gives us so many wonderful things for our good that we have to learn to be more appreciative. And thank heaven we the Department of Homeland Security, FEMA, the Department of Defense and all those wonderful alphabet agencies to show us how to do it right. God bless George Bush.

Consumers benefit of course. Why should they give a shit whether the low wage worker is American, Mexican, Canadian, Chinese or even Martian?

What the article suggests to me is that employers have to compete for workers in the same way they have to compete for customers.

"Our government is run so efficiently that its worth working six months a year for those things."

Yeah, like corporate America is so efficient. LOL. Anybody who has worked in both the public and private sector knows that is a crock. I've seen more slacking on the job and mismanagement in corporate jobs than anywhere.

"Why should they give a shit whether the low wage worker is American, Mexican, Canadian, Chinese or even Martian?"

Because they just might be that next low wage worker? Because low wage workers bring down their wages? That's the typical obtuseness of free market fanatics..

"If an employer can't get labor to do dirty work, that's his problem. Period"

Well not exactly, since he gets the state to supply him with a pool of cheap labor through "free trade" agreements, non-enforcement of immigration laws, refusal to increase the minimum wage, etc. Some people would call that corporate welfare.

Our government is run so efficiently that its worth working six months a year for those things.

Likely you couldn't find a more expensive way to get common services Ray. The problem is, you couldn't the necessary common acceptance of "what" is provided, save through government.

You're probably a bit of a slacker yourself Reilly.

I like low wage workers. That means higher wage workers like me can buy more.

Yes you are right. Free market fanatics like me could learn a thing or two from Castro and his kind.

Well not exactly, since he gets the state to supply him with a pool of cheap labor through "free trade" agreements, non-enforcement of immigration laws, refusal to increase the minimum wage, etc. Some people would call that corporate welfare.

Well now we are going in circles when I was arguing witn Crassus about getting the government waste we pay for. Yes it is corporate welfare - courtesy of American taxpayers. We don't work six months a year to pay taxes for nothing.

1,804 hours per worker for the United States in 2005

It is a bit slack.

Yes Cairo, we get too much of government services that we don't want and that work against us. We could start with the destruction of the Constitution.

Yep, it is the government and the constitution that is supplying jobs Americans don't do!

Don't do? Like work for the military and risk getting killed or having a limb blown off. Now that's a dirty job!

Yes Cairo, we get too much of government services that we don't want and that work against us.

Is this the majority's opinion on this point Ray? Or, is this the minority speaking?

I'm in a small minority Cairo. We live in a nation of fools. Sadly, it's not just here.

"You're probably a bit of a slacker yourself Reilly"

That's just dumb, Ray. Can't you come up with something other than ad hominem?

"I like low wage workers"

Of course you do. I've been saying that all along. Libertarians don't give a shit about workers. There's not a dimes worth of difference between them and Republicans on that point.

Dear Reilly, from what this article says, jobs are there for the taking. What are you complaining about? Do you think all those Wal-Mart shoppers are Libertarian too?

IMO the world could do without another Marxist academic. That fits my definition of a slacker too.

"Free market fanatics like me could learn a thing or two from Castro and his kind"

"IMO the world could do without another Marxist academic."

Ah, there you go, Ray, with your absurd black and white, Randian view of the world. If you think the only alternative to your laissez-fairy tale economics is Stalinism, you're just plain ignorant of economic history and reality. Nice attempt at red-baiting from the rabid right, though. Just goes to prove what rightwing extremists libertarians really are.

Of all the stories I've read on the drudge report, I have never read one thats been more full of s**t. According to this list it seems that americans pretty much wont do ANYTHING. Kind of hard to believe with a 5% unemployment rate right?

It makes me wonder if the article is really about americans or is it a list of jobs the AUTHOR wont do. Makes me wonder what planet this guy lives on, which ever one it is, its sure not mine. Apparently, I never worked 3 jobs in the almond fields, egg processing plants and as a paperboy during my summer vacations from high school, getting up at 4 am and finally getting home around 6. I never humped sheet rock and construction supplies or did roofing in 112 degree central valley heat. Did 110 hour weeks on an Almond huller or stood in 2 feet of water with a 50 pound jack hammer for two weeks and $10 an hour until the skin on my feet began to rot; all the while our poor illegal workers sat around and pretended to not understand english when the truly hard tasks had to be done.

All this just to put myself through college over ten years until I finally had enough education to finally obtain a stressful job in front of a computer, again, another job "americans wont do". Wow thank you Mr. Author, I guess it was all just a bad dream.

Please pardon the foaming at the mouth rant, but a red blooded american can only take so many twisted liberal "interpretations" of reality that serve nothing more than to proliferate their own perverse political agendas.

Eliminate welfare for anyone that is not physically or mentally disabled.

If Americans get hungry enough - - they'll work.

Nobody gives a fuck about what jobs you did as a kid, so spare us your biography. This article is about career long jobs, "red blooded American". Dummy.

"If Americans get hungry enough - - they'll work."

Spoken like a good corporate shill. Are you a libertarian?

No - I'm a realist.

Whats a matter Bill, don't like the fact that americans do the jobs americans wont do? Sorry to have questioned your narrow reality, keep sucking down the cool aid man.

Castro a Stalinist? I thought you would like Cuba. It's a perfect example of a country without a free market. How about Chavez? Allende?

Just goes to prove what rightwing extremists libertarians really are.

Yes Reilly, we extreme rightwing libertarians just idolize Adolph Hitler. Gotta go buddy. I have a low wage job to go to tomorrow morning.

Dscot, you're a fool. Why do you hate American workers?

Cherry or grape?

Cherry or grape?

"we extreme rightwing libertarians just idolize Adolph Hitler."

Oh I see. If you don't idolize Hitler you can't be considered a rightwinger. Brilliant.

I'll drink "cool aid", Dscot, and leave the kool aid to you.

YEAH!

As soon as we get rid of the mexicans ---- its "let the market decide" meets "take it or leave it" for the american worker!

There is no job an American won't do for the right price.

Hmmm!!!!

Like I said before, who is saying there are jobs Americans won't do, it certainly is not the workers.

I am afraid these groups of people can push and point it toward the liberals but it is not the liberals saying this.

Liberals are after reasonable wages for a reasonable work, unfortunately the RNC and their supporters are not looking for reasonable wages for reasonable work, they are just looking for million dollar workers for 3 dollars an hour and blame america when they can't find this.

Apparently, I never worked 3 jobs

Today. T-O-D-A-Y

The article is present tense. Not what made America great in the past. Congrats on doing what was once jobs Americans would do - as the article juxtapositions - to what jobs Americans won't do today.

unfortunately the RNC and their supporters are not looking for reasonable wages for reasonable work
Posted by Crassus

True thats why we have so many illegals working in jobs that were once held by Americans. Nobody can live a decent lifestyle on minimum wage or less. The increase in Minimum wage will help put Americans back to work in some of these fields.

I live in one of the major Ag areas in the US.

I guarantee you the average American will not work in the fields as long as there are other options - - as in government support.

Oscar I would like to believe people have more pride than that. working gives me a feeling of worth. Even if you don't make a ton of money at least you earned it. I'd personally get bored from laying around the house and not having nothing to do. I think thats why you see so many older folks at Walmart and Hospitals.

"I mean, I may not like yard work, but if they're going to pay $1,000 a day, where's the shovel?

To paraphrase an old joke, we've determined what I am...now we're just negotiating the price."

Posted by Danforth at 2007-01-16 07:50 PM | Reply

--- Danforth, the price point for labor is not merely dictated by the worker (sure, alot of folk would jump at $1k/day to do yardwork) but as you know, it is also set by the economics effecting what the employer can afford pay. Which is in turn, determined by what the employer's customers are willing to pay.

When the cost of labor for manual and menial jobs rises to the point that sufficient numbers of previously uninterested American citizens become willing to perform those jobs, the resulting cost increases will "trickle up" inflating unit costs everywhere. This will cause some "consumers" higher in the food chain, to defer purchases and/or find alternatives, and will likely lead to declining revenues and unsustainable business operations for some.

Employers seek the lowest possible labor costs because the consumers demand it.

The immigrant labor issue needs to be reframed to American citizens opposed to guest worker programs thusly: "Would you personally be willing to pay x% more for everything you buy, that is an x% cost of living increase, in order to eliminate foreign workers from this country?"

Beyond the cost/demand element, there looms another critical issue. With the massive wave of Boomers heading into retirement, old age, and diminished capacity, there is NOT enough labor in this country to address the caregiving needs of our aging population. We can kick out all of the "illegals" and lock down our borders, but in ten years we will be scrambling to undo the labor shortfall in order to address a gerontologically driven health crisis.

^ health care crisis.

Cosmic,

As I agree with the boomer generation I do not agree with lowering the wage to invite the immigrant to work.

If the law of supply were played fairly the wages would increase do to the needed supply of labor decrease in this country, by opening the door to unlimited available work from across the globe does not allow the American worker compete within the country's labor market.

"it is also set by the economics effecting what the employer can afford pay. Which is in turn, determined by what the employer's customers are willing to pay. "

But if the customers already have a relatively set price to pay, say for an electrical box upgrade, it's the accepted price...until someone comes in and undercuts it. If the current going price is $1900, and there's an influx of workers willing to do it for $950, it forces a downward spiral of wages. What we're doing is saying to the current electricians 'you've got to either accept a lower standard of living (a lower wage) or you're going to have to find another job further up the chain'. Ideally prices can lower over time due to increased technology and productivity. Instead we're using the laws of supply and demand and an influx of poorer workers to depress wages on the lower end, and rather than lowering prices commensurately, businesses are profiting more and paying those at the top a lot more. I'm sure you're aware of the disparity between the average workers and the CEOs, and how that gap has grown exponentially over the last 20 years. Add to that the fact that corporate profits are the largest percentage of the money pie than ever before, and workers wages are the smallest. Is it really that those at the top are producing that much more, or have they just found a way to squeeze more out of the average worker for less pay? With wages not keeping up with the cost of living over the last 5 years, I'm betting it's the latter.

Yet it's increasingly common to hear politicians, CEOs, and immigration activists impugn American workers as a bunch of shiftless layabouts who regard many good jobs as beneath their dignity.

We call that "projection"

Byrdman - - I agree with you on older people - - but that was a different generation - - different set of values.

I don't think the up and coming generation are lazy and sit around the house - - - but many do feel that life should be all about Fun and Partying.

Fortunately - - pendulums do swing.

This article is so full of supposition and pure bullshit it is amazing that my screen didn't turn brown just from reading it.

there are plenty of jobs Americans avoid. Let's take a tour of them:

landscaping --- I know of MANY white people that both own AND work for landscaping companies. As one poster pointed out, the big problem is wage. You get more business if your price can be held down. If you have a large number of illegals that are willing to do the work for sub-standard pay, why hire the American's that HAVE to be paid at least minimum wage? THAT little fact goes for EVERY ONE of the jobs listed in this "tour".

entry-level construction --- again, bullcrap. Worked doing that. Same thing again. Go to any temp service or day labor company. You can see plenty of Americans as well as immigrants (legal AND illegal) that are willing to do the work. Notice they are working for day labor companies doing the same job for less, rather than actually getting hired by the construction companies.

picking fruits and vegetables --- actually tried to get a job out in Lakeland, FL doing this back in the early 90's. Nobody would hire me because I would have to be paid at least minimum wage. (Reuters reports that "up to 70 percent of U.S. farm workers are estimated to be undocumented, totaling about 500,000 people") This just illustrates my point.

cleaning hotel rooms --- again the wage problems. My grandmother did this kind of work all her life. I have known many other Americans that have and would too. Employers simply prefer to pay under the table or the absolute bare minimum they can get away with. If you are willing to do more for less, you get your hours cut to the point in favor of the many that will, until you are forced to look for a different job just to support yourself.

busing tables, and prep cooking in urban restaurants --- did all this including dishwashing in the same type of restaurants. Wage was a serious issue, as were the ungodly hours you were expected to work sometimes. If you didn't like or could do an 80 hour week, you were canned for someone that would do it at $2 under the minimum wage. If you weren't outright canned, your hours were cut to force you to find another job.

Georgia's carpet factories are increasingly dominated by Mexican immigrant workers

Hauled alot of carpet out of Dalton Georgia before I actually moved to Georgia. The amount of illegals here is STAGGERING. Is it any suprise that if a factory finds a large group of people that are willing to work 80+ hours a week for peanuts that it is going to make USE of that workforce? That doesn't mean Americans aren't willing to do the job.

These examples alone are enough to make me seriously question the credibility of the articles author on this subject.

Moom,

I am surprised!

Bravo, mooman!! Great post. But you should read the admittedly clumsy and meandering article that I don't really like on a number of levels anyway. Like, the whole thing.

:)

The solution is simple. Fine the hell out of the companies that hire illegals. If that fails arrest the CEO's. After some time in Jail I am sure they will change their mind.

I recall Saint McCain saying that illegals do jobs americans wouldnt do for 50 bucks an hour.

God, what an idiot.

For 50 bucks an hour you could advertise
"nude nuclear waste technician" and have people lined up around the block.

I'd punch myself in the face 'really hard' for 50 bucks. Every hour, with appreciation of a job well done for a good wage.

(resume available upon request)

I would like to see ALL Companies and Corporations that Hire Illegals to immediately be evicted from the United States because obviously they do not believe in America and Americans.

Larry

OK..I've had time to think about this now. I want to keepy my fingerers. All of thems.

I'll punch myself in the face really hard every hour, but I leave with all of my friends, K?

Moom,

I am surprised!

Why be suprised, Crassus? I have long said that anyone that thinks I am an apologist for this administration doesn't know me. I am NOT in lockstep as some accuse me of. There are some things that I disagree with STRONGLY... this is one of them.

Bravo, mooman!! Great post. But you should read the admittedly clumsy and meandering article that I don't really like on a number of levels anyway. Like, the whole thing.

Thanks, Boyd. I appreciate the appreciation. :-)

I DID read the entire article. However, since the premise was, faulty all I had to do was tear that down to invalidate the conclusion.

Remember the recent illegal problem at Swift and Co. meat packing plants? This was one of the jobs they said "Americans won't do". Unfortunately for the people that say that, there point was proved false. Who did the plants get to replace the illegal workers? White Americans. Oooooooops.

Yeah, that article was crap..

Some of those jobs simply aren't careers and should be reserved for college students and young people. Nobody is going to bus tables for 30 years. If you don't get promoted to waiter/waitress at some point, you are probably an idiot. Hell, after that many years, you should probably be managing the joint.

Programming is beneath Americans? That is a plain lie. There are tons of unemployed programmers whose jobs were shipped over to India. Just go to rentacoder.com and check out all of them fighting for contract jobs at a tenth of their usual wages.

The author of this article doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

""Employers seek the lowest possible labor costs because the consumers demand it.""

Utter bullshit.
Takes home building, for instance, houses have risen in price dramatically while labor costs have fallen at the same time. Profits rise for businesses without regard to the welfare of the employees.
Americans need to realize that "free trade" will cost all workers eventually, our only way to stop it is through labor unification and collective bargaining. As in earlier eras before unions wages will fall to whatever the most desperate will accept. All workers in America ought to join unions and force business to raise wages or not have labor, it should include disrupting importation of products made in China. If Walmart wants to offer cheap goods from China then Americans should then strike Walmart. But it won't EVER happen because too many have been convinced that unions are evil even though they are responsible for creating the middle class in America.

Say a person has collected all 26 weeks of their unemployment insurance in Wisconsin, and has been documented as completing a mandatory work search during that time. When the benefits run out, that person drops off the rolls of people looking for work as far as the state is concerned. Not collecting benefits? Then you're not unemployed.

It's better when I am working. When I am employed, I am a liberal democrat. When I am unemployed, I am a Trotskyite!

Americans, it seems, are also less willing to take stressful jobs that require lots of training and long hours, and that require them to work in unpleasant environments. For example, the American Association of Colleges of Nursing is warning of a nursing shortage.


Yep, that explains why there were 320 applicants for the 55 spots in my Nursing school class. If they want more RNs, they need to establish more programs that train RNs. But, that would be expensive and require an effort on their part. So much easier to stripmine the Phillipines and english-speaking Africa of THEIR doctors and nurses.

free market is a lie. those that control the regulations slant the market in their favor. it is false to assume that those with the capital and therefore power do not have an unfair advantage over those without. In other words owners of industry have access and control of political power that allows them to conduct their operations to their advantage often by dumping costs on the public burden.

For example, corporation A makes widgets. They sell widgets. Costs for production of widgets is labor plus materials plus profits plus sundries (sundries are those costs of production, waste disposal, equipment purchases etc.).

Now if said corporation is able to uses its influence to effect public law to their benefit they will be able to dump the cost of production onto the public. FOR EXAMPLE. Waste disposal. They could pass laws requiring public bodies to pick up and dispose of waste at public cost, thereby transfering costs to public, including those that do not share in corporations A's profits, do not purchase widgets or do not work at corporation A. This example is applicable to pollution, health care, worker safety, etc.

That is why free market MUST be accompanied by controls.

"If you have a large number of illegals that are willing to do the work for sub-standard pay, why hire the American's that HAVE to be paid at least minimum wage?"

Well...maybe because you don't want to break the law?

"Employers simply prefer to pay under the table"

Yet another example of lawbreakers.

I'm not sure if I buy this "Americans won't do this kind of work" line anymore... I've been watching that show on Discovery, Dirty Jobs. Last night he had to work on a farm that made biodegradable pots out of cow shit. There was literally a lake of cow shit and piss...

He had to clean all this equipment that was caked with this stuff, and go out onto Lake Cow Shit in a boat and clean the surface of sticks and other stuff...

If people out there will do that, they'll do anything...

"Employers seek the lowest possible labor costs because the consumers demand it.""

Utter bullshit.
Takes home building, for instance, houses have risen in price dramatically while labor costs have fallen at the same time. Profits rise for businesses without regard to the welfare of the employees.
Americans need to realize that "free trade" will cost all workers eventually, our only way to stop it is through labor unification and collective bargaining. As in earlier eras before unions wages will fall to whatever the most desperate will accept. All workers in America ought to join unions and force business to raise wages or not have labor, it should include disrupting importation of products made in China. If Walmart wants to offer cheap goods from China then Americans should then strike Walmart. But it won't EVER happen because too many have been convinced that unions are evil even though they are responsible for creating the middle class in America.

Posted by danni at 2007-01-17 08:18 AM |


--- Not utter bullshit.

Take a magnifying glass and go throughout your household examining manufacturing labels. For the declining number of items labelled "Made in the USA", research how many of those manufacturers' vendors (and so on down the supply chain) actually are US sources.

We are enmeshed in a global marketplace, every economic and political facet interconnected to events and valuations elsewhere in the world. The very internet via which you post your opinions ensures a mainline connection of values, ideas, and commercial opportunities to any point on the planet.

So perhaps you live your ideals and boycott Walmart. That is perhaps admirable, but do you also boycott Target, Sears, Macy's etc? You enjoy the empowerment your computer and its attendant capabilities provides..... but do you not also appreciate the falling prices for memory, storage, upgrades? (Anyone remember when a PC-XT with two floppy disks, no hard drive, and an amber monochrome monitor cost nearly a grand?)

At this point in time, if all American workers were to unionize and if all worker compensation was set by organized negotiation, and if all products were required to be sourced in America, the impact on the cost of living would be fantastical. Consider the loss of commerce and jobs in that scenario.

I spent part of my youth as a dues paying member of a union, and THAT was utter bullshit. Power corrupts. CEO's or union management: either way the temptations to abuse power is great. Neither entity operates apart from human nature. Unions aren't inherently evil, and in fact they are a necessary balance in some situations, but they are not a panacea to what may or may not ail America.

continued ----

Certainly the obscene escalation of the salaries of CEO's and upper corporate management is a troubling issue. But I wonder if the entire amount of money paid to all of the CEO's that constitute the compensation credibility gap in this country....if that entire amount were evenly distributed to ALL the workers, would a significant rise in wage be experienced by workers? In other words, would this act, in itself, provide enough financial impact to solve the living wage issues? Healthcare cost issues?

We have crossed a threshhold into a brave new world of global inter-dependence... for better or worse. Only a global catastrophe will sever those ties.

I spent nearly five years caring for my aged and infirmed parents until their deaths. That experience (as primary caregiver) afforded me the opportunity to survey a good segment of the resources, the bureaucratic infrastructure, and financial contingencies consigned to the care of the aging (and infirmed). Based upon that experience, I am certain that there are not enough human or financial resources to humanely address the wave of Boomers headed down the pike. This is a crisis in the making.

""Unions aren't inherently evil, and in fact they are a necessary balance in some situations, but they are not a panacea to what may or may not ail America.""

Unions are just the antidote to the war on the working class that is going on in this country. When wages, etc. rise to the point of fairness unions become irrelevant. Until then though they are perhaps the working class's only hope to win this war. And...it is definitely a war.

I see how in some ways unions hurt the working man. At the very least, mine boldly stated that it was unfair for any worker to get raises for any reason other than seniority. A truly talented and hardworking individual will never get the rewards he deserves under this system.

And...it is definitely a war.

Posted by danni at 2007-01-17 11:35 AM | Reply |

--- And THAT is an emotionally tinged bit of utter bullshit promulgated by an increasingly goofy Lou Dobbs.

Lou Dobbs certainly knows his market segment.

Every time I hear the line "Jobs Americans Won't Do", I ask "at what price"?


Posted by Danforth at 2007-01-16 07:50 PM | Reply

Well that is the gist of the issue. It is not that Americans won't pick lettuce, but they won't pick lettuce for $1.50 per hour.

To the right labor is a commodity like wheat and sugar to be purchased at the lowest possible price whether that be overseas or through migrant workers. They do not value the employees, only the work product. No concern for the lives of the people they employ, only how they can enrich themselves in the process.

But it is a different story when they are justifying their own salary structures. Then you need to "attract the best and brightest". Yep that is just what we have in Washington right now [sarcasm].

"No concern for the lives of the people they employ, only how they can enrich themselves in the process."

Posted by JimmyWallback at 2007-01-17 11:52 AM |

--- Our "system" elevates the human trait of selfishness. But good management and good owners know that without employees and customers, they are nothing, and they act accordingly.

The politicians and CEO's can kiss my hairy ASS.

I quit an 11.00/hr job in 1989 to enter into an apprenticeship program for 6.68/hr.

Worked my ass of for the first two years digging ditches and laying pipe (no not in the porn industry)

Thru much hard work and a little luck I am now a part owner in a medium sized business making pretty damn good money. Course I still work my ass off and put in more hours than some, less than others (approximately 2,800/yr)

What was my point?


Oh yeah, I just wanted to tell someone to kiss my ass!!!!!

--- Our "system" elevates the human trait of selfishness. But good management and good owners know that without employees and customers, they are nothing, and they act accordingly.

This is only true when the number of laborers are limited, once the number is unlimited the owners/managers could careless about the employee.

2112,

Exactly right.

I put myself through college, but could not have been able to afford it without tap awards and pell grants. Sadly the government feels that the benefit of a college education is not what it used to be since pell and tap have not kept up with the rising cost of education.

Now I am self employed. I have three people who report to me, they are paid well, share in the profits and have great benefits.

I am getting ready to fire one my first clients. He feels that we live in the 1950's price wise and bitches our tax return fees but calls me on the phone everytime the word "tax" appears in the newspaper. He really is a greedy bastard who pulls in close to $2,000,000 per year in income but makes his employees pay for their full health premiums. Well he called one of the women that works for me "a bitch" to her face because he felt she did not return his call fast enough. Going out to meet with him, she is coming along, I am going to demand an apology and whether I get it or not he is toast. I will not do work for someone that abuses my staff.

Crass:
"This is only true when the number of laborers are limited, once the number is unlimited the owners/managers could care less about the employee."
(modification mine, you missed a space in there I think yes?)

Simple human nature. Not saying I like it.

See, I'd like to think that I could honestly say that I wouldn't do the exact same thing. If I found myself owner of "Corporation A", damn certain I would at least make the effort to make sure those I employed could live without having to scrape the floors. After all, I don't need that much to live myself, right?

But once someone gets that money, they get foolish... and ever more greedy. Simple human nature. I think maybe this is why I'm kinda glad I'm not in a position of authority over anybody.

""I put myself through college, but could not have been able to afford it without tap awards and pell grants.""

Congratulations on your success and I hope your client realizes his error. Probably won't though and I truely respect you for sticking up for your employee. I will say, I think my boss would do the same for me and that is why I like working for him.

There are no jobs Americans won't do. There are jobs that Americans won't hire other Americans to do because it has become the practice in certain industries to keep labor costs low by hiring illegals.

Unlimited labor will not always lead to callousness when it comes to employess. Consider game development. That is pretty much unlimited labor right there. So many geeks want to be in that industry, and the number of jobs is by far exceeded by the number of people who want them.

You get some companies, like EA, who run total shitholes. They have their people working so much that, no lie, their lonely spouses have formed a support group. Their attitude is literally "if you don't like it quit, we'll have you replaced within a week."

And there are other companies, like Big Huge Games, who treat their employees like they're gold. One of the four cofounders of that company was also elected president of the IGDA, which advocates fair and just work conditions in the gaming industry. So obviously he is a cool guy. :)

Just keep in mind that many people want to leave a legacy, and for some that happens to be a great (not just profit wise) business.

"Their attitude is literally "if you don't like it quit, we'll have you replaced within a week.""

I worked for one of those type of employers for two years after college. Just long enough to get my CPA license. Then I was outta there.

There are still people there from when I worked there twenty years ago, they are just as miserable as ever. I offered a partnership position with one of them but he refused.... some people must just like being miserable.

Jobs Americans Won't Do...
Elect real leaders!

In my travels I've found that the wage depression going on is global.

Our Chicago factory moved to Mexico. But down in Mexico they're scared to death that their $2.00 per hour wage is too high and they can't compete with China.

We moved some engineering functions to Malaysia. But because it's supposed to be a low cost center, my company pays shit wages, even for Malaysia, and most of our original hires, who we trained in Chicago at great expense, have quit.
So now there's engineering jobs that Malaysians won't do!!

It's ridiculous. Companies won't be satisfied until all their workers are making 10 cents an hour.
But then who's going to buy the crap they sell?

My father worked in a state employment office. The problem often wasn't minimum wage. The immigrant workers were often making $12-$15 an hour, and the employer paid SSI and Worker's Comp in.

The first problem was language. The largest construction companies wouldn't hire manual labor (shingler's, framers, etc) who didn't speak Spanish. The rest of the crew only spoke Spanish, the foreman was bilingual, but only used Spanish on site, and the rest of the workers worked better if they could get jobs for their hermanos.

Also, among the 5%-10% unemployment figure in this country are a whole lot of ex-cons. Hundreds of thousands of men who are entirely unemployable because of some stupid drugs in their past. The immigrants... well... they don't have any history to hold against them. They're always Juan Doe with no record

Jimmywallback:
Good for you on your stand with this asshole. clients can be a pain in the ass. In the present era of almost full employment and allot of work in our industry it is OUR time to make the demands. I wont even touch a project unless there is a guaranteed 25-40% in it for me. It won't alway be this way but it is now.



Plesantville: on unions
"A truly talented and hardworking individual will never get the rewards he deserves under this system."

Utterly False!

Is that why I was selected to enter management and ultimately became owner of a business? And, is that why we currently have our eye on a couple individuals within our company that we plan on bringing on board some day soon?

Like I said above. I was digging ditches 15 yrs ago. I had a college degree but not in anything I was interested in. So I started over.

America + Hard work and determination + a little luck = Success!

Notice how I always add "a little luck"

The world is brutal. Sometimes so can do the right things and still end up on the bottom

Companies won't be satisfied until all their workers are making 10 cents an hour.
But then who's going to buy the crap they sell?

Posted by Norm_ at 2007-01-17 01:45 PM | Reply

That is tomorrow's and tomorrow's CEO's problem.

Gotta justify the $250 million in stock options.

What the hell, when the system collapses they can lobby for more corporate welfare to make ends meet.

2112 - I don't mind client's being demanding as long as I am compensated for it. But one thing I will not stand for is abuse of my staff. No matter what the fees.

I honestly think some of the problem has to do with free trade agreements like NAFTA. While I am all for a free market in the US, I think that should be FOR US companies. If you want to tax, then tax the hell out of imports. Also tax at a higher rate, US companies that operate outside the US.

Yes, that will drive down corporate profits, but on the other hand it will create more incentive for the companies to do well by the American workers. That doesn't mean I support total government control over business, or that I hate big business. It just means that I think in some instances there needs to be a balance that, right now, is sadly lacking.

I know I am not making the entire argument for it right now... but I am sure most of you know what I am talking about and can fill in the blanks.

"This is only true when the number of laborers are limited, once the number is unlimited the owners/managers could careless about the employee."

Posted by Crassus at 2007-01-17 12:32 PM | Reply

--- I disagree. This is "only true" when we inculcate a sense of moral responsibility in our population, that finds expression in adulthood.

There are insensitive employers and there are responsible employers.

But it cuts both ways.

Keep in mind that when one assumes the mantle of employer, one also takes on the role of pseudo-social worker, having to cope with the shortcomings and problems of the employees. And except in the instance of an "open books" style of management, employees rarely have a full picture of the extent of overhead costs as measured against the bottom line.

As Jimmywallback points out, employers also have to contend with the eccentricities of the customers. Business ownership is a balancing act of facilitating between the needs of the employees and the needs of the customers.

It is not easy.

In my own business model, the employees, the customers, and the vendors come first. I come last. This flies in the face of the conventional entrepreural wisdom of "pay yourself first." I have gone through lean years where I was sucking air making sure that everyone got their needs met.

"In my travels I've found that the wage depression going on is global."

Posted by Norm_ at 2007-01-17 01:45 PM |

--- Hasn't it been reported that wages in China and India are rising?

Americans, it seems, are also less willing to take stressful jobs that require lots of training and long hours, and that require them to work in unpleasant environments. For example, the American Association of Colleges of Nursing is warning of a nursing shortage.

Wrong! Education is very expensive, and not everyone can afford to go these days. Just like in the job sector where immigrants make more money than American workers for the same job (that's why immigrants go more low paying jobs) because immigrants don't have to pay the taxes...

It's the same with education as immigrants are more likely to get free education than an American student...

_2112_,

Is that why I was selected to enter management and ultimately became owner of a business? And, is that why we currently have our eye on a couple individuals within our company that we plan on bringing on board some day soon?

Ok, I can see the ascendancy to management, but how did a union facilitate your business ownership?

--- Hasn't it been reported that wages in China and India are rising?

No, wages have remained the same, nothing has changed except they now have plenty of jobs for all.

Business is not stupid, they want the maximum profit without regard to people.

Ok, I can see the ascendancy to management, but how did a union facilitate your business ownership?

The relationships I created with vendors and clients, Union and the Men durring my formative years pretty much guaranteed success. We would not have had any of that without it.

Monitarily I took a risk, but not without the immense backing of the above.

Interesting. You feel without the union you never would have accomplished any of this?

"because immigrants don't have to pay the taxes..."

If that's the case, it's because the employers are breaking the law.

If that's the case, it's because the employers are breaking the law.

Posted by Danforth at 2007-01-17 06:51 PM | Reply

Yes and the corporate apologists in this country are all for turning a blind eye at the illegal practices of corporate america, offer amnesty and pretend nothing bad ever happened.

All in the name of share price.

Jimmy,

If only a few CEOs would be handcuffed and perp-walked, things might start to change.

Several posts on this thread have told of workers trying to get jobs, and being tossed aside because of their outrageous demand of minimum wage. It was too easy for these employers to instead hire desperate people for slavish wages, pocket the extra money, and break the law.

"because immigrants don't have to pay the taxes..."

Pleasantville stated...

If that's the case, it's because the employers are breaking the law.

I assume you never worked with immigrants before...Legal immigrants have a seven year tax exemption. However, legal immigrants are unable to collect unemployment but with the tax exemption the lower paying jobs appeal more to legal immigrants than the American worker...The illegal immigrants make the situation even more of a greater disparity...

I have worked with legal immigrants and they make over 100 dollars a week more than I do for the same job because of their seven year tax exemption for being an immigrant...

Jobs Americans Won't Do?

Be a truthful and thoughtful adul on behalf of all Americanst when elected President of The United States.

"I assume you never worked with immigrants before...Legal immigrants have a seven year tax exemption. "

I am assuming that you have never worked with immigrants before either, because there is no seven year tax exemption.

Prove me wrong.

^5^5 Jimmy. Keep up the Fabulous Work putting these Cretins in their places.Shazammmmmmmm

Larry