That is way cool-hopefully in the near future-they'll find a way to make this work.

Just say no.

This will help alot of people. Eventually, I think they will cure this thing..

I think evagelicals will try to halt this therapy. Evangelicals seem to like Aids because they feel it thins the population of people they don't like. I feel bad for evangelicals because they have so much hate in them.

Byrdman, not only do evangelicals view aids a diseases that kills people they don't like, but also as a tool they can use to scare people into not having sex. They are sexually repressed and so they don't want anyone else to enjoy (safe) sex and if aids goes away they have one less stick to beat people over the head with.

Science is Good. This is great news.

Where were the attacks by the right before you launched your attacks on them. Yes this is great news. Science finds something that will hopefully put a halt to this dreaded curse.

Now if only people will heed and take the cure. The biggest problem in Africa today with AIDS is that no one there wants to do any preventitive precautions. At least here, most are practicing some kind of safer sex.

Good! Let's keep the evangelicals on the defensive. If you back them into a corner, real Christianity will flourish again by the hearts of the nice people. And we might end a few really bad diseases too. Name one good idea in practice to come from an evangelical.

Good post, Ward. I agree. This is good news.

I also don't foresee any evangelicals denoucing this. This is a fantastic find and I can't wait to see what else this discovery leads to.

I would not say no one in Africa wants preventitive precautions. I believe many women do.

Don't forget one of the very first things Bush did when he took office was to cut ALL support to women's clinics overseas. His excuse: the American government will not pay for abortions. He is an imbecile: Such a very small fraction of what these women clinics were about.

Another problem in Africa is many women are raped.

I don't see why this is big news. Tat has been known and studied for quite some time and has been known to be essential for efficient HIV replication. A citation for the actual scientific article they published would be nice, as I'm sure there has to be more to this than the article states for it to be a big deal.

"I would not say no one in Africa wants preventitive precautions. I believe many women do.

Another problem in Africa is many women are raped."

And there you have part of the problem. The women can't make their rapist put on condoms.

Don't forget one of the very first things Bush did when he took office was to cut ALL support to women's clinics overseas. His excuse: the American government will not pay for abortions. He is an imbecile: Such a very small fraction of what these women clinics were about.


To do otherwise would be buying a drunk a drink. As you said in support of your position, "many women are raped". So previously we were paying for them to clean up their (African society's) mess.

To use an interventionists word, we were being ENABLERS. Maybe their society will get tired enough of the situation and decide to actually make some changes that makes any help to them something other than just chasing the mechanical rabbit at the dog track.

Enablers always think they are being compassionate by helping, never realizing they are just contributing to, and perpetuating, the problem.

Education is an Enabler?

Education in regards to health - infectious diseases - child care - nutrition - birth control - Aids - etc. - - affects the entire world.

Clinics providing - - innoculations - TB tests - prenatal care - vitamins - sterilization - affects the entire world.

Education is an Enabler?

No, but as has been pointed out, the men either weren't getting, or paying attention to the education, and the women either weren't either, or were not given a choice. Either way the abortions were helping clean up the mess.

At some point you have to say, "you made this mess, and we are tired of paying for it. Help yourself some before we will help you any more."

You have the African government telling them that they can use GARLIC to avoid or cure AIDS, for crying out loud!!!

I think you just proved my point on the need for Women's education.

I think you just proved my point on the need for Women's education.

LOL... only if you don't follow logic. They WERE getting the education before the funding cut, AND the government was giving this kind of info... guess who they were listening to?

Regardless, if as you say, rape is so rampant, and they can't force a rapist to use a condom... exactly how does the education help them?

"They WERE getting the education before the funding cut, AND the government was giving this kind of info... guess who they were listening to?"


Remember the Marburg outbreak a few years ago? The people were stoning international teams of doctors who were there trying to contain the outbreak because the village medicine men were telling them the illness was due to witchcraft. How do you expect education about viruses and disease to be effective in this scenario?

How do you expect education about viruses and disease to be effective in this scenario?

My point exactly, JPW.

Serious changes need to happen culturally there before education has a ghost of hope (no pun intended at all).

For those changes to occur, they have to come to the conclusion that they are on the path to destruction currently. Until that happens we were just throwing away our dollars.

Another thing that is forgotten by those in the West... the African culture is male dominated. If the guy doesn't want to wear a condom (and they don't) the woman is expected to live with that, or else.

Science is Good. This is great news.
Posted by Oscar at 2007-01-12 10:51 PM

Science is God, but close enough. ;]

MooManFL - you are a disgusting waste of a human being. I hope you suffer a debilitating disease and remain bed-ridden until you stop breathing. Whenever you open your trap online the vileness that you've stored seems to drool onto your keyboard, filthing the internet. You are worthless to me and a pathetic read.

How do you expect education about viruses and disease to be effective in this scenario?

Gee, and *I* am the disgusting waste of a human being?

Can't argue the cultural facts so shoot the messenger. Oh well.

I want alcoholics to be cured too, but I realize that just TELLING them how bad alcoholism is won't do it. That is basically what interventions are. Notice I even used one of those terms in my argument.

But hey... I guess getting you to listen to logic and facts is like trying to get the Africans to listen to sex ed... hasn't worked so far, and with out a major paradigm shift, it isn't likely to any time soon. You don't agree with it so it MUST be vile. How pathetically arrogant.

I want alcoholics to be cured too, but I realize that just TELLING them how bad alcoholism is won't do it. That is basically what interventions are. Notice I even used one of those terms in my argument.

Let me revise that, since it wasn't clear the way it was written... should have said:

"I want alcoholics to be cured too, but I realize that just TELLING them how bad alcoholism is won't do it. That is basically what interventions are: a way to make them face up to their own mess so they will attempt to change the behavior. Notice I even used one of those terms in my argument."

An exaustive study was done on how AIDS was spread throughout Africa. What they found was that the primary cause were the millions of transient men, truckers, migrant workers, etc. who contracted the disease from prostitutes, and then brought it home to their wives and children.

Only heartless Evangelicals would think it is the will of God for any human to suffer needlessly - especially the millions of innocent children dying as we blog..

Notice how I didn't say "Christian'? Jesus would weep if he saw what's been done in His name, and with his message of compassion and unconditional love. Evangelicals must by dyslexic. They have it all backwards.

Only heartless Evangelicals would think it is the will of God for any human to suffer needlessly - especially the millions of innocent children dying as we blog..

Strawman.... nobody on here has claimed this. Either way though... you would probably be better off just saying wackos since being Evangelical even, doesn't mean you have that view. I know quite a few of them, and never met one that said AIDS in Africa was the will of God. As a matter of fact, I know several families that have been missionaries in Africa for years.

I didn't say that noone has said it. I said that no one on this thread, or even maybe this site, has. Regardless, I still personally don't know any Evangelicals that have said that, and I know plenty of them. Of course most of the ones I know think Pat Robertson is a kook, and Falwell not far behind.

Can we watch one-quarter of some countries' people die?

With all the funding we were giving them towards the problem., did we stop it (the problem)? Did we even slow it?

I never said that wanting to save lives isn't compassionate. I just said that in this case it is futile until there is a major cultural shift that lets them see that they NEED a solution because what they are doing is self-destructive.

Hopefully cancer & heart disease are next up!!

Amen to that. I have been smoking for waaaay too long, and both of my grandfathers had problems with the circulatory system. One died after a heart attack, the other died later the same year after a stroke.

Can 27 million orphans be left to fend for themselves?

You have to Walk before you can Run.

The don't help someone before they help themselves rant is really lame.

So is the fear of what might happen to me if I try to help someone.

MooManFL - you are a disgusting waste of a human being. I hope you suffer a debilitating disease and remain bed-ridden until you stop breathing. Whenever you open your trap online the vileness that you've stored seems to drool onto your keyboard, filthing the internet. You are worthless to me and a pathetic read.

Posted by redlightrobot at 2007-01-13 03:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

So, you spew forth a vile and heinously malevolent diatribe on MooManFL because you take offense to his, as you describe them, vile comments? Going for the absurd, are we?

Only heartless Evangelicals would think it is the will of God for any human to suffer needlessly - especially the millions of innocent children dying as we blog..

Notice how I didn't say "Christian'? Jesus would weep if he saw what's been done in His name, and with his message of compassion and unconditional love. Evangelicals must by dyslexic. They have it all backwards.

Posted by AllAmerican at 2007-01-13 06:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

Please define what you label an evangelical? Does it include any Christian who takes seriously the charge by Christ to teach others what He has commanded to be taught? Or is it those who have abandoned that great commission for a political agenda tied only to this temporal life?

Also, what would needed suffering be?

Only heartless Evangelicals would think it is the will of God for any human to suffer needlessly - especially the millions of innocent children dying as we blog..

Strawman.... nobody on here has claimed this. Either way though... you would probably be better off just saying wackos since being Evangelical even, doesn't mean you have that view. I know quite a few of them, and never met one that said AIDS in Africa was the will of God. As a matter of fact, I know several families that have been missionaries in Africa for years.

Posted by moomanfl at 2007-01-13 07:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

Does anything happen outside of God's will?

"Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will."
Matthew 10:29

Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin?

NO

So God kills sparrows too. Well that settles it Mac. If the Bible says it, it must be so.

If God kills sparrows too, what do you think my chances are if I entreat him to spare me, permanently?

How do we change a culture's practices? Let them figure it out on their own? Or perhaps through education? I know which one I think would be more effective. Neither would be immediate, though.

I heard a story on NPR about two months ago about how some researchers were finding significant links between HIV and some other communicable disease (I can't remember...either TB or malaria I think). The point was that when HIV and the other disease were both present, they were both strengthened. Essentially, the hypothesis they were working to prove was that sexual practices may not be the sole culprit behind higher rates of HIV infection in Africa. They went as far as to say that their sexual practices may not be that different from the sexual practices of people elsewhere in the world; it's siimply the specific situation that Africans are in with high levels of the other disease in their specific climate.

Personally, I think it's probably a little bit of both.

I also remember hearing a few years back a story about infants who were being raped because some African men were led to believe that having sex with a child would cure HIV. Sad and disgusting and completely preventable through appropriate education provided that tribal/religious leaders get on board with it. This is something that happens sporadically; I would think that we should work on making it happen more rather than giving up on the problem.

AIDS was created 4000 years ago by God, it just didn't feel like infecting anyone until 1975.

"researchers were finding significant links between HIV and some other communicable disease (I can't remember...either TB or malaria I think)"

I think it was Malaria. This is a common affect due to the immunosuppression. There was also a recent study that showed circumsized (sp?) men had a lower risk of being infected. HIV is an incredibly complicated disease biologically, let alone if socio-economic factors are considered.

So how do you get people to change their habits? How do you stop men from seeing prostitutes? How do you stop the rapes? Spend more money?

How has that worked so far? Most of the money spent in Africa, going back to the 50's hasn't been on infrastructure and making the country better. That money has lined the pockets of the people in power! That problem has to be solved first. Then the work on the plight of the people will be easier. This isn't a liberal or conservative position, rather it is an honest observation of what has happened.

The best case study is Zimbabwe. Mugabe took that country in 1976 and changed it front minority rule (way before Mandela) and made it a success story that should have been mirrored around the whole continent. Others like Amin dragged their country down, kept it in poverty, and the people infighting amongst the tribes.
Then in the past years, Mugabe turned against the minority white landowners who were living in peace and working in prosperity along with others and confiscated all their lands. With no one really in charge, Zimbabwe has gone downhill so fast and the killings and rapes unchecked that it is worst than any wild west you can imagine.

Why the change? When success was going so well? Did they not achieve it fast enough or on a broad enough spectrum and they wanted to completely remove the white minority who had nothing to do with anything other than being descendents of the people who started Rhodesia?

The bottom line is how can Africa be changed with money when it can't change itself? They had opportunity for real change and yet reverted to the thuggery that plauged all the other unsuccessful counties in Africa.

Okay then, split the continent further into smaller nations based on tribal lines? But does this take into consideration resources available to make it a viable nation? Not in the case of Nigeria for sure. One tribe would control oil and have a viable nation while the other tribe would have no resources and probably flounder (forgive but I forget the tribe other than the Ibo).

Do we pontification and tell people to do safe sex or not to rape? Or buy chastity belts for all women over the age of 5?

Sorry for the long post, but if anyone really solves this problem, it will be better than solving the Mideast problem I believe.

Sitting on funds because there might be corruption??

As if there is not enough corruption in our own country - - - Africa is hardly exclusive.

Its kind of like saying "don't feed hungry children - one might grow up and become a terrorist"

Education needs to be shared and implemented - - - viruses do not recognize borders.

MOONMANFL

Pat Robertson SAID AIDS was God's way of punishing homosexuals and 'morally corrupt' people. That the tsunami was 'vengence' against Muslims.

Is he or is he not a leading 'Evangelical'

Same for Falwell

According to the Times, evangelical Christians' "foray into AIDS work is a relatively recent development," and they "remain one of the religious groups slowest to respond to the pandemic because of the disease's links to homosexuality and promiscuity." Warren's wife, Kay, said, "Evangelicals have been really afraid. They don't want to talk about condoms. They don't want to talk about HIV because that means having to talk about sex. We want to break that kind of silence" (Mehta, Los Angeles Times, 11/30).

Notable development.

DATA

It's about time "Christianity" was practiced from the 'Red Print" i.e. Jesus's teachings. The humble man's teachings 'Christianity" was founded to follow. They lost sight about 400 BC and never got back to the message the "Prince of Peace" came to deliver to the world.

Compassion, humility, unconditional love, helping the poor, reaching out to your enemies, et al

Good to see Christians getting involved in making the world a better place, rather than trying to convert others based on words and not deeds. "Attraction rather than Promotion" is a good motto for them to follow.

i grew up in Evangelical Christianity. While I am glad I got the good lessons, I don't miss the messages about how everyone's in imminent danger of going straight to hell - even those who sat in the same seat last Sunday night. Actually, I don't recall Jesus talking about Hell.

So True AA - - - I've had the whole gamut of Christian teachings. As my mom was disabled she often sent us with neighbors to whatever Christian church they went to. I've done everything from Science of Mind to revival tent meetings and speaking in tongue. My gramma was a devout Catholic and tried her best. My step-father held the second on a Black Gospel church which we sometimes went to. My first husbands family were Salvation Army. And my second husband is Mormon.

I am Pro Jesus - - - but I've become Anti Organized Christianity (exception: there are always good individuals)

Sounds about like me OSCAR Lots of experience in different schools of thought from Christian, Jewish, Catholic, Science of the Mind, Buddahism, you name it. All in searching for a sense of "Spirituality" rather than a God who was presented as being far, far, away and keeping score of my wrongdoings, just waiting to punish me.

Many good people in churches - the one's who set the true good examples. Too many leaders in the Evangelical world who set a bad example.

One great example I saw was a minister in Texas who was on 60 Minutes recently (largest church in Texas?), practiced what he preached. He said he may not agree with gay groups on the lifestyle, but he can agree with them that AIDS needs to be stamped out. So, they work together.

Many other examples he gave of how he puts his Christianity into useful practice. He made over $20 million on his book, and after paying back the church for 20 years of salary, he donated all the proceeds to helping people. THAT kind of Christian minister I could really get behind.

Christianity if fine with me...."Religiosity" is a whole 'nother matter LOL

Buddhism

"Religiosity" Yes!

However - I don't support the viewpoint of Christians interpretation of the bible. Buddhism isn't so much a religion as a life philosophy.

Anyway - - back to subject which should simply be: Humanity.

Which is the whole thrust of both religious philosophies you just mentioned LOL

"Actually, I don't recall Jesus talking about Hell."

Actually neither does Spud.

Spud more remembers Jesus talkin' about. as you say...

"Compassion, humility, unconditional love, helping the poor, reaching out to your enemies, et al"

Spud is athiest/ recovering catholic Spud but Spud has read that book and when you winnow out the dross there's some good stuff there.

Red letter Christians Spud quite likes.

It's the pro-war, anti-sex, anti-science, anti-evolution, anti-stem cells, anti-gay, anti-"anybody who doesn't look and sound just like themselves" Christians that really piss Spud off.

Nice postage there AA and Oscar.

Spud is thank AA fer them kind words on the other thread earlier.

Spud is appreciate.

Be Well.

PS: Gone agin!


stage left.

PS: To Oscar.

Someone once sed that Buddhism was a philosophy in search of a religion and that Christianity was a religion in search of a philosophy.

Spud can't remember who sed it but Spud don't think he were joking.

Be Well.

AllAmerican wishes Spud well

PS Spud

In my view Christianity IS a philosophy. It's simple and clear and written in red print in most King James bibles.

Man turned it into a religion. Council of Nicea ruined it centuries ago, when compiling the Bible, by including too much history, and not enough of the words which contain the philosophy of Jesus. But, it began shortly after Jesus' death.


Paul and James The Younger, who Jesus wanted to be the leader of the diciples after His death, did not get along. As Paul possesed more power through his family money, connections, and Roman citizenship, his version of what a 'church' should be prevailed and became Christianity - The Religion.


Paul disliked women, and was particularily resentful of Mary Magdalene, Jesus' closest friend, and only one of his many dear women friends. (Perhaps Jesus knew that women are by far more loving and compassionate by nature than men. Who knows?)


Pauls resentment over Mary Magdelane's extremely close relationship to Jesus during His life grew over time and led him to prohibit women from participating in the new organization.


When women began protesting in the middle ages about their ban from churches, the church leaders pulled an archaic verse out of the Old Testament about Jesus passing through the 'gates of heaven', which they attributed as a reference to Mother Mary, and used to allow women (albeit behind a curtain in a balcony) to attend. Women had power in their households. Church elders were merely using this verse to give them an out - after centuries of keeping women outside the places of worship and placate them once and for all.


John Milton's "Paradise Lost" gave the Church a perfect tool to shove fear down people's throats at the threat of 'burning in an eternal hellfire' in order to keep them in check.


The slow evolution of Christianity from a philosophy of Spirituality, to a religion took no longer than it took Constantine to finally free the Christians from the catacombs to practice in public after his own conversion.


The period of first The Crusades, which lasted hundreds of years (and planted the first seeds of Arab hate), then The Inquisition, which lasted for another few hundred years, were both eras of the Christian Church that used God's name to murder, torture, and victimize millions around the world. Hardly 'attraction' but 'domination through fear'.


The philosophy which is Christianity was lost. Perhaps many centuries later it can be found again and put into practice in all areas of humankind.


Anyway, don't mean to ramble, but since this place is as dead as a goldbricker's office an hour after he's been fired, I didn't think anyone would mind.

""It is like a fax talking to another fax. Tongues are not a human language. It is your spirit speaking with God."
PASTOR DANILO FLORIAN, on the Pentecostal experience of speaking in tongues.
"

NY Times

Perhaps Pastor Florian would like to take his stupid cult to Iraq.

AA philosophises, eh?...

"Christianity IS a philosophy""

Agreed. Well, in a should be/could be/aint-at-present kinda way.

"Man turned it into a religion. Council of Nicea ruined it centuries ago."

Agreed. Worst Editors. Ever.

"Paul disliked women"

Also agreed. His luff of money and power and dislike fer women became readily apparent early on.

In the process of making Christianity the official religion of the "Holy" Roman Empire he proceeded to marginalize Jesus's main message and remove the sacred feminine from the heart of the religion in such a way as to leave it crippled to this very day.

Spuds still pissed at the guy fer that!

Still... is Sunday and all, Spud should prolly fergive him at some point here.

Maybe after coffee.

Definitely not before.

Be Well.

PS: Morning all! Is Spud rising at the crack of tennish here on the west coast and trudging many virtual miles to end up entering the Drudge Retort, in search of red meat fer breakfast.

Like the yellow dawg potato he is, Spud has entered blogworld
stage left.

Morning Data!,

"speaking in tongues."

That's a whole other category.

Spud put 'em in with...

Snakehandlers.
Excorcists.
Polygamists.

That aint religion that's pure Cult.

The Cult of Stupid.

It's been around a while.

See also: "Flat Earth Societies"

In evolutionary terms they are the cul-de-sac dwellers.

Dead-enders.

Be Well.