One pastor after the other -- this news is sure shaking the churches' rafters -- or closets.

This proves that all Christians are closeted homosexuals.

-A Liberal

One pastor after the other -- this news is sure shaking the churches' rafters -- or closets.

Posted by CalifChris at 2006-12-11 11:30 PM | Reply


More like shaking a few Pews. Or Alters lol

Larry

No it doesn't Joe you idiot - it just proves that a lot of idiotic guys who can't deal with being gay take the worst route possible.

It's sad. Also stupid.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

Did they ever read the story about casting the first stone?? Did they hear about people in glass houses?? Why do they think they can get away with this BS in 2006?? Maybe 30 years ago it would be kept quiet. Not now. These people should practice what they preach or get another job.

Sitdown,

I agree it's very sad. These men weren't allowed to be as God made them.

It's the gay man/woman that can't accept themselves that seem to be getting into trouble.

When are they gonna learn, God don't make junk?

Dragonlady

Please. He's a married man who had sex with several other men. If he were married and had multiple affairs, he should also be made to step down. Has a lot less to do with being gay, than it does being unfaithful.

Used to be that when a pastor confessed to adultery, he was removed from his position. Eugene Robinson turned that all around when he left his wife and moved in with another man, whereupon he was considered a hero to the gay community.

Weird standards they have for themselves, and their "church" "leadership"--such as either is.

Barnes told church members: "I have struggled with homosexuality since I was a 5-year-old boy. ... I can't tell you the number of nights I have cried myself to sleep, begging God to take this away."

How do you know he's a hypocrite? If he has never specifically spoken out against homosexuality, then he isn't one. Did you attend his sermons?

What is it about Evangelists and sex. I guess preaching to the masses gives them a woody.

This proves that all Christians are closeted homosexuals.

-A Liberal

Posted by JOE

It was an exaggeration(see: joke).

-A Person Without His Head Up His Ass

Dragonlady speaks...

"Oh how the mighty have fallen."

Yes, apparently he went down pretty hard!

Also yes, is awful joke.

Spud is deeply ashamed of hisself.

"When are they gonna learn, God don't make junk?"

Spud so luffs that line.

When discussing Religion and Homosexuality usually in terms of human rights Spud is often tell his more intolerant religious minded family members "either God's making millions of mistakes cranking out all them gay babies or you are making one single huge mistake by not recognising their humanity"

The thumpers in Spuds clan largely avoid such conversations mostly these days. Mostly.

See it or no...

Is no mistake by God sez Spud.

Deth is, of course, an athiest/ recovering Catholic Spud so nobody is entirely sure why he sez these things.

Spud has already left, of course, but Spud is pop his wee head inna door to say Hi to Dragonlady.

Hi Dragonlady!

Be Well.

How do you know he's a hypocrite?

Just the fact that he is gay, and he preaches to a congregation whose majority view is contrary to his orientation should be enough. If he never brought it up it's still a deception.

The guy is clearly a hypocrite. Either he is self-loathing or he made a calculated decision to deceive those around him for purposes of personal advancement within his church.
I imagine, given his status, he has a gift for oratory. It is shame he did not make a home in a church that would be able to accept his homosexuality. There he might do much good, without being a hypocrite.

The sadness with this is, in the megachurch 'verse, Haggard and Barnes were the liberals. Not quite as lightweight as, say, Smiling Joel Osteen, but nowhere near the hate-filled domination theology available in any city. Haggard got caught up on the sidelines of Prop. 43, but he wasn't one of the core anti-rights activists.

Millions of evangelicals are not reflecting on the meaning of their obsession with demonization. Rather they will be looking for more rigid leaders to bear them further to the right.

"the fact that he is gay, and he preaches to a congregation whose majority view is contrary to his orientation should be enough."

How is that enough? Just because you preach about topics that have nothing to do with gayness to a bunch of gay-haters doesn't make you a hypocrite if you don't agree with their views on gays.

Joe,

Even if he never preached on the subject, would his congregation have stuck with him had they known what he was? I doubt it. His deception, the fact that he did not reveal himself to the "flock", makes him a hypocrite.

Maybe it makes him deceptive, at most. That's not the same as being a hypocrite, last time I checked.

It's that Rocky Mountain water, and a lot more!

It was an exaggeration(see: joke).

You need to make a "joke" humorous in that case first. If that is what passes for entertaining then I'm glad it can keep you so amused.

In truth it is your desire to speak your mind - as simple as it is to entertain - in ways that seem "acceptable". Like your "joke".

I'm sure you have quite a closet full to tell when your "in your cups".

Maybe it makes him deceptive, at most. That's not the same as being a hypocrite, last time I checked.

IMO, deception and hypocrite both fit within the same page of synonyms. So I think I'll just leave it at that.

I hope school's going well for you.

Happy Holidays!

Night Joe.

There is absolutely no difference in the hypocracy between Moslem and Christians. The pastor is a perfect example. He is another nut case and always has been, but only decides now to make it public. Clearly someone, perhaps his gay lover threatened to out him or he would keep praying on more men.

In my view there would be far more harmony if both Christians and Moslems vanished from the face of this planet. They are holding back science, trying to distort history and bent of attacking other religions as if they know more about the concept of god than others who do not share their religious faith.

If only we could put them all on an island and let them destroy each others, like Chineese fighting fish.

Harrier:
Please check your spelling before you hit the send button.

Aren't congregations such as Pastor Predator's what the Republican base is composed of? These people are either simple, drugged or inbred and consider themselves the "party of God"?! Jesus wept.

How do you know he's a hypocrite? If he has never specifically spoken out against homosexuality, then he isn't one. Did you attend his sermons?
Posted by JOE at 2006-12-12 12:04 AM

Are you serious? This is a founding Pastor of the church. All 28 years of "service", Barnes was just mocking God? Are you?

Harrier:
Please check your spelling before you hit the send button.

Posted by Berkeley at 2006-12-12 02:45 AM | Reply


Ewwwwwwwww a Spelling NAZI

Larry

""This proves that all Christians are closeted homosexuals.

-A Liberal

Posted by JOE""

It definitely shows that Rightwing/Christian/
Fundimentalist/Republicans, have a bizzar love/hate relationship with homosexuality.

Isn't it strange that the Christian right is so harsh about homosexuality and has so much of it in their midst?
Scull and Bones initiation has some homosexual practices I hear?
Jeff Gannon in the whitehouse.Mark Foley.David McWilliams.Dick Cheneys daughter.Sen. Larry Craig of Idaho.David Dreier (R-CA). and many more.
Hypocracy all the way baby!

Religion still makes me laugh. These people, instead of just beliveing what they are told, should actually question things and THINK for themselves. Then they might realize being gay isnt a horrible crime.

As a Christian I find it very hypocritical that some take a very strong (and biblical) stand against homosexuality while soft selling other sins. In my study of the problem I have discovered usually that people demonize the sin that they haven't (yet) committed and rationalize the ones they have or are engaged in.

In the eyes of God, sin is sin and he hates it all. The one who has adultery in his heart, is covetous, lies, etc. etc. is just as much a sinner as the homosexual.

...should actually question things and THINK for themselves. Then they might realize being gay isnt a horrible crime.

Yeah, and maybe Lucy Ewing from "Dallas" might swing by my place for some unbridled, carnal, savage lovemaking.

""In the eyes of God, sin is sin and he hates it all. The one who has adultery in his heart, is covetous, lies, etc. etc. is just as much a sinner as the homosexual.""

I think it is an insult to your God to claim that being a homosexual is a sin, or even that being a homosexual who indulges in homosexual sex is a sinner.
If God didn't want there to be homosexuals he wouldn't have created us.
Homosexuals are purely a minority and thus have endured the same plight as most other minorities. It is always in the interests of the elite to provide a scape goat for the down trodden to blame for their plight, they are reluctant to let go of their "whipping boy" because due to civil rights legislation they are running out of minorities to feel superior to.

My guess is Dr. James Dobson is next. He's swishier than Harvey Fierstein .... and he's from Colorado.

Isn't it strange that the Christian right is so harsh about homosexuality and has so much of it in their midst?

Posted by JeffnDenmark at 2006-12-12 05:18 AM | Reply

Not really. It's typical human hypocrisy. No one lives up to his/her own standards. Some are more egregious offenders than others. But, we all do it.

"partner with the Holy Spirit and other guys...." sounds pretty darned HOT!

Maybe it is the cool clear Rocky Mountain water?

Maybe it is the cool clear Rocky Mountain water?

Posted by Georgeisadrunk at 2006-12-12 09:04 AM | Reply

Maybe it's the Rocky Mountain Goat Piss (Coors) and the Rocky Mountain Oysters doing it

Larry

The running assumption here is that because this guy had homosexual sex that he's a closeted queer.

He's married with children. That's clearly his general preference. Sounds like he was tempted away a few times by the gay thing.

People are tempted all the time by abberant behavior, but it doesn't mean it's their preference. It can also be curiosity or some other vile urge.

Vernon, you are spewing garbage. You know nothing about his preferences. He may of had sex with his wife twice and with his twinkie friends thousands of times. Fact is you dont know but yet you spin. Facts and truth dont matter do they little man?

All male Christians must be gay-they all love Jesus, who is a dude.

Sucks, donut?

"He may of had sex with his wife twice and with his twinkie friends thousands of times."

Were you there putting tally marks on the chalkboard? How the fuck do you know that?

"Barnes told church members: "I have struggled with homosexuality since I was a 5-year-old boy. ... I can't tell you the number of nights I have cried myself to sleep, begging God to take this away."

Sounds like this was a little more than being "tempted away a few times by the gay thing".

Vile urge? Spew your hateful venom elswhere, Vernon.



I'd be interested to find out whether he preached that homosexuality is a choice, etc.---because it appears as though he knows deep down he was always gay.

What is sad is the effect this will have on his family. They didn't sign up for this. And it is one of the many unfortunate side effects of bigotry, hatred and prejudice that force people who are gay to try to be straight.

joe, go back and really read the post. You can do it if you go slowly.

The conservative movement needs to reform itself out of its twisted relationship to homosexuality. Conservatives should accept the fact that being gay is a perfectly normal aspect of a sector of the citizenry.

Many on the right, to their credit, do acknowledge this. However, to their discredit and out of a lust for political power, they are afraid to confront the Christian extremists of their party. The November defeat should be seen as an opportunity to do some house cleaning in the GOP and re-establish themselves as a party in the secular mainstream, respectful of religious freedom but also of the separation of Church and State put in place by the Founding Fathers.

We had lots of snide GOP propaganda in the last election about Nancy Pelosi bringing "San Francisco values" to Congress. Pretty ironic, considering all the man-lov'in going on among the righties.

.........why is religion fixated on genitals.........

........why is religion fixated on genitals.........

Because sex is procreation and that is the prime biological imperative.

Religion is primitive psychology, that is, a primitive science of the mind.

The mind is driven by sex (i.e. the drive to procreate) to the same extent as the body.

It is what keeps us alive as a species.

Fact is you dont know but yet you spin.

Posted by Georgeisadrunk at 2006-12-12 09:41 AM | Reply

The fact is that you don't know either.

But it's highly doubtful he would be married with children, living with his family, and not enjoying the normal pleasures of his wife.

It must be the thin air. Maybe it's the water.

Do you have vile urges Vern?

Do you have vile urges Vern?

Just keep him away from inflatable pool toys.

I'll leave it at that.

But it's highly doubtful he would be married with children, living with his family, and not enjoying the normal pleasures of his wife.

Posted by vernon at 2006-12-12 10:43 AM |

Vern, never underestimate the power of denial...it's not preference, it's called camouflage. I can't say if that is the case for this hypocrit, but it is far from being uncommon for a gay man refusing to come to grips with his identity and living a lie.

His deception, the fact that he did not reveal himself to the "flock", makes him a hypocrite.

Whatsleft,
You seem to be both thrilled and disappointed. He came out as gay. One point for the libs. He confessed and came clean, therefore not lying. Point taken away.

BTW, this hurts the mega churches and helps Christianity.

People have to realize there are Rabbis that are fags, Muslim Clerics that are fags

fags make up 5-7% of the population why is this so intresting

"""One point for the libs."""

Someone explain to me, without falling into partisanship bigotry why that is. It seems like a loss to his congregation, a dent to religious integrity as a whole more than anything else.

To say that it helps christianity is ridiculous...it's just stuffing another lecherer, another diddler, another liar into the great bag of religious hypocrisy.

Mention a religious pederast and the news casts ombrage on his kin, near and far.

Denver,

He confessed and came clean, therefore not lying.

Really? Did he give back the money?

Maybe his outing was just an easy way to early retirement.

But it's highly doubtful he would be married with children, living with his family, and not enjoying the normal pleasures of his wife.

Posted by vernon at 2006-12-12 10:43 AM | Reply |

Vernon's "expertise" is so touching- "highly doubtful he would be.......not enjoying the normal pleasures of his wife"

My oh my.

Vernon,

The running assumption here is that because this guy had homosexual sex that he's a closeted queer.

He's married with children. That's clearly his general preference.

I'm going to have to say this isn't true. Many people who can't deal with their sexuality persue families for appearances sake, or sometimes because they feel that living a normal life will cure them of their urges.

Right now there are hundreds of married men trolling for sex on the gay.com chatrooms. They use it as a badge of honor. "Hey bro, the wife is out of town, want hot action?" It's pathetic.

Carlos Mencia summed it all up perfectly with a strange little song. It goes "if you think you might be gay ... you're gay."

"vile (vl) KEY

ADJECTIVE:
viler , vilest
Loathsome; disgusting: vile language.
Unpleasant or objectionable: vile weather. See Synonyms at offensive.

Contemptibly low in worth or account; second-rate.
Of mean or low condition.
Miserably poor and degrading; wretched: a vile existence.
Morally depraved; ignoble or wicked: a vile conspiracy. "


So yes, take your hateful views elsewhere. And make no assumptions about me--you don't know me. Equating defending those who deserve to be defended and being one of those people only illustrates your warped logic and twisted world view.

-B-, are you the mother?

Why is Colorado so attractive to gays?

Why is Colorado so attractive to gays?

After South Park introduced the Big Gay Al character, Colorado became the new Key West.

Headlines read: "Another gay christian evangelist takes it on the chin"

Cue up some music by 'Queen'.....get it?


"Another One Butes The Dust"

At the age of 5 Paul Barnes claims he was concerned about his next woodie. At the age of 5 I was trying to convince my parents to give me seconds of ice cream. Makes me a retard.

Can someone tell me the shelf life of Biblical teachings. Remember reading about Christians openly supporting slavery, racial discrimination and a big one, wearing clothes of mixed fibers.

Danni,

"I think it is an insult to your God to claim that being a homosexual is a sin, or even that being a homosexual who indulges in homosexual sex is a sinner.
If God didn't want there to be homosexuals he wouldn't have created us.
Homosexuals are purely a minority and thus have endured the same plight as most other minorities. It is always in the interests of the elite to provide a scape goat for the down trodden to blame for their plight, they are reluctant to let go of their "whipping boy" because due to civil rights legislation they are running out of minorities to feel superior to."

***
Sorry Danni but my God didn't create homosexuality any more than he created adultery or any other sin. Sin is a misuse or perversion of things from their original intent. God didn't intend anyone to be an adulterer, covetous or homosexual, it is our lust that takes us down these roads of sin.

I don't blame homosexuals for any of my problems, I'm not sure what you are referring to about being a whipping boy.

Daw7AWAP
"At the age of 5 Paul Barnes claims he was concerned about his next woodie. At the age of 5 I was trying to convince my parents to give me seconds of ice cream. Makes me a retard.

Can someone tell me the shelf life of Biblical teachings. Remember reading about Christians openly supporting slavery, racial discrimination and a big one, wearing clothes of mixed fibers."

There is no shelf life on biblical teachings any more than there were unanimous views in Christianity about issues such as slavery, racial discrimination and wearing clothes of mixed fibers. For every "Christian" writing you can find supporting slavery and racial discrimination I can find two or more that condemn it.

As to wearing clothes of mixed fibers that is a Levitical/Old Testament law with its roots in Judaism.

Vernon, I think you are waaay out over your skis on this one.

As Andrew Dice Clay once said:

Either you suck dick, or you don't suck dick...there is no middle ground.

"The founding pastor of a second Colorado church has resigned over gay sex allegations, just weeks after the evangelical community was shaken by the scandal surrounding megachurch leader Ted Haggard"

YEAH! Those "Colorado Values" again!

Looks like Colorado is for homosexual Christian conservative drug addicts what New York is for Ivy League liberal elites.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Does Colorado mean "corn hole" in Spanish?

Can we please bring back gay bashing..

Sorry Danni but my God...
-IRAQVET

Wait a second, MY god? As in there is more than one?

Besides, being gay isn't a choice, your born that way. Anyone want to take a look at things like DNA and genetics instead of saying God made them this way?

Belive what you want, don't condem people for something they can't help.

"As in there is more than one?"


Isis Isis
Ra Ra Ra

Woden that make you laugh so hard you'd be Thor? Minerva, Apollo and Zeus might not be a Mused.

Lidco,

Can we please bring back gay bashing..

WTF are you, stupid? The gay community is totally ripped. I don't know what the gym obsession is. But in twenty years you're going to hear people saying stuff like "my son is only 16 and he's already benching 200 pounds! I think he might be gay!"

In short, bring it on.

lol pleasantville

Redlightrobot:
I happen to love spelling Nazis. I married one. And you should see what she can do with a thesauraus.

Barnes told church members: "I have struggled with homosexuality since I was a 5-year-old boy. ... I can't tell you the number of nights I have cried myself to sleep, begging God to take this away."

Didn't anybody tell him being gay was a voluntary lifestyle choice? I wish the talibaptists would get their stories straight.

If nothing else.

No, it's a phase - sometimes lasts from age 5 to 95.

"As a Christian I find it very hypocritical that some take a very strong (and biblical) stand against homosexuality while soft selling other sins. In my study of the problem I have discovered usually that people demonize the sin that they haven't (yet) committed and rationalize the ones they have or are engaged in.

In the eyes of God, sin is sin and he hates it all. The one who has adultery in his heart, is covetous, lies, etc. etc. is just as much a sinner as the homosexual."
--IRAQVET

I wholeheartedly agree with all of what you said here.

I believe that not thinking you're better than anyone else is key to living a life in Christ's footsteps.

SO WHAT??????????????????????

Watch abc from 11am till 12. Fuckin beast Rosie O. bull dyke's TV show celebrating her gay lifestyle. Dr left hit's a new hypocratic low, making fun of a poor homo, while they prepare to make a sleazy dyke PRESIDENT!

I love Rosie O'Donnell

Oh Shock! Rosie doesn't "Know Her Place"

The failure or faithlessness of some in no way nullifies the faithfulness of God.

We all sin...every day. All are sinners. Christians are sinners saved by grace. God does not overlook their sin. In fact, He suffered the cross to uphold His justice while enabling Himself to justify and pardon the sins of His people.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity."
-Steve Weinberg

"But the resurrection of a dead person from the grave, and his ascension through the air, is a thing very different, as to the evidence it admits of, to the invisible conception of a child in the womb. The resurrection and ascension, supposing them to have taken place, admitted of public and ocular demonstration, like that of the ascension of a balloon, or the sun at noon day, to all Jerusalem at least. A thing which everybody is required to believe, requires that the proof and evidence of it should be equal to all, and universal; and as the public visibility of this last related act was the only evidence that could give sanction to the former part, the whole of it falls to the ground, because that evidence never was given. Instead of this, a small number of persons, not more than eight or nine, are introduced as proxies for the whole world, to say they saw it, and all the rest of the world are called upon to believe it. But it appears that Thomas did not believe the resurrection; and, as they say, would not believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I; and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other person, as for Thomas."
-Tom Paine, Age of Reason

We get the picture Data You are an Atheist. I don't care that You do not believe but Would You please have some respect for those who do ?? Is that so much to ask.

Larry

I respect all superstitions equally, Larry.

Jeebus Crow! Is there something in the water on the Eastern Slopes of the Rockie Mountains?

"Can our gross feelings be excited by no other subjects than tragedy and suicide? Or is the gloomy pride of man become so intolerable, that nothing can flatter it but a sacrifice of the Creator?"
-Tom Paine, Age of Reason

Obviously another case of too much soy.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity."
-Steve Weinberg

"But the resurrection of a dead person from the grave, and his ascension through the air, is a thing very different, as to the evidence it admits of, to the invisible conception of a child in the womb. The resurrection and ascension, supposing them to have taken place, admitted of public and ocular demonstration, like that of the ascension of a balloon, or the sun at noon day, to all Jerusalem at least. A thing which everybody is required to believe, requires that the proof and evidence of it should be equal to all, and universal; and as the public visibility of this last related act was the only evidence that could give sanction to the former part, the whole of it falls to the ground, because that evidence never was given. Instead of this, a small number of persons, not more than eight or nine, are introduced as proxies for the whole world, to say they saw it, and all the rest of the world are called upon to believe it. But it appears that Thomas did not believe the resurrection; and, as they say, would not believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I; and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other person, as for Thomas."
-Tom Paine, Age of Reason

Posted by DATA at 2006-12-13 07:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, 'How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.'

Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.'" John 10:24-27

Note that they do not believe because they are not of His sheep; and not, that they are not of His sheep because they do not believe. God chooses who will hear His voice.

As attested to by his denunciation of faith in Christ, Data is incapable of believing, absent God delivering him from spiritual death by granting him life and repentance. Until then, if ever, he is dead in sin and incapable of receiving the things of the Spirit.

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

So I quote a Founding Father and a Physics Nobel and all MAC The Moron can come up with is King James quotes. What pathetic crap.

Your religion is bullshit, MAC, exactly, precisely, like Osama's.

"Most scientists I know don't care enough about religion even to call themselves atheists. "
-Steve Weinberg

i read that the pastor and his church did'nt take any explicit political position as such.
seems like the guy has struggled with his predilection for man-juice his entire life.
he grew a 'beard'. it did'nt work.
i feel a little sorry for him, especially...
"Sitting cross-legged in jeans and an open-collar shirt, Barnes spoke in his video about evolving feelings growing up in a firm moral family: from confused little boy to adolescent racked with self-loathing and guilt.

In their only talk about sex, Barnes said his father took him on a drive and talked about what he would do if a "fag" approached him.

Barnes thought, "'Is that how you'd feel about me?' It was like a knife in my heart, and it made me feel even more closed."

i hope he and his family are given the time and space to be able to reaffirm the bonds that may have been shattered by this 'outting'.

So I quote a Founding Father and a Physics Nobel and all MAC The Moron can come up with is King James quotes. What pathetic crap.

Your religion is bullshit, MAC, exactly, precisely, like Osama's.

Posted by DATA at 2006-12-14 06:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

You make my point. You take the word of mere men over the Word of God. You cannot see because you are spiritually blind.

You make my point. You take the word of mere men over the Word of God. You cannot see because you are spiritually blind.
Posted by MACV1972 at 2006-12-14 08:05 AM

Religion explained in terms of "belief", "sheep" and "things of the Spirit" are utterly non-scientific. This alienates anyone who isn't already religious, has doubts or questions the authenticity of religious dogma. Data is a "scientist" who, purportedly, might base his reasoning on logical progression, elimination and reproduction. Can you produce proof of "a Jesus miracle", spiritually connect Data and other like-minded to this "sheepherder" or demonstrate that your argument isn't a dead horse for many centuries at least? That is what Thomas Paine demonstrates. Claiming that the Bible is "word of God" is bullshit on it's face. Again, it's comprised of selections written by many people in many languages, compiled and pimped as "holy". It's a great work on one hand - some of the "tails" are based on fact. Unfortunately, the origins of those facts aren't exclusively Christian, so are mutated to fit.

Data - "ra" is pronounced "ray", I've always been subtly perturbed at that bumper sticker.

Redlightrobot:
I happen to love spelling Nazis. I married one. And you should see what she can do with a thesauraus.
Posted by ratso at 2006-12-12 04:53 PM
Congratulations on finding someone who can read, wrong Nazi. :]

IraqVet: you are equating being gay with humping children and animals. It's pretty obvious that nearly all child and animal sexual abuses are performed by BREEDERS. Check yourself before you..

Vernon: you protected Foley, Haggard and now Barnes.. I do see a pattern.

You make my point. You take the word of mere men over the Word of God. You cannot see because you are spiritually blind.
Posted by MACV1972 at 2006-12-14 08:05 AM

Religion explained in terms of "belief", "sheep" and "things of the Spirit" are utterly non-scientific. This alienates anyone who isn't already religious, has doubts or questions the authenticity of religious dogma. Data is a "scientist" who, purportedly, might base his reasoning on logical progression, elimination and reproduction. Can you produce proof of "a Jesus miracle", spiritually connect Data and other like-minded to this "sheepherder" or demonstrate that your argument isn't a dead horse for many centuries at least? That is what Thomas Paine demonstrates. Claiming that the Bible is "word of God" is bullshit on it's face. Again, it's comprised of selections written by many people in many languages, compiled and pimped as "holy". It's a great work on one hand - some of the "tails" are based on fact. Unfortunately, the origins of those facts aren't exclusively Christian, so are mutated to fit.

As stated...

"13These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
1 Corinthians 2:13-14

Without enlightenment by the Holy Spirit, you will stumble at the truth...even if it were defined in the most precise scientific terms.

1 Peter 2:6-8...
"6Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

"Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no
means be put to shame."

7Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

"The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,"

8and

"A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense."

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity."
-Steve Weinberg

So, Datum, what is the basis for human dignity? Who or what gives man dignity?

Mac:

Save your breath.

There is no use in trying to discuss anything with that one.

He's a lost cause.

"13These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
1 Corinthians 2:13-14

Without enlightenment by the Holy Spirit, you will stumble at the truth...even if it were defined in the most precise scientific terms.

I appreciate that you are willing to put some effort into this discussion, but I will not abide with biblical interpretation solely. "receive the things", "spiritually discerned", "not in words" - well, I know plenty of Christians who fear, and are taught, that meditation allows "possession by the Devil". Meditative state allows physiological control over heart rate, metabolism, nervous response, attitude, etc. It's not enough to believe. It's never enough to just repeat. If you don't understand it's just worthless babble to everyone. Thanks for the energy, but I'd prefer if you critique Christian beliefs rather than simply follow interpretations of them.

"13These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
1 Corinthians 2:13-14

Without enlightenment by the Holy Spirit, you will stumble at the truth...even if it were defined in the most precise scientific terms.

I appreciate that you are willing to put some effort into this discussion, but I will not abide with biblical interpretation solely. "receive the things", "spiritually discerned", "not in words" - well, I know plenty of Christians who fear, and are taught, that meditation allows "possession by the Devil". Meditative state allows physiological control over heart rate, metabolism, nervous response, attitude, etc. It's not enough to believe. It's never enough to just repeat. If you don't understand it's just worthless babble to everyone. Thanks for the energy, but I'd prefer if you critique Christian beliefs rather than simply follow interpretations of them.

Posted by redlightrobot at 2006-12-14 09:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rather than respond with a "back at ya" snippet on not abiding your criticism of biblical interpretation solely, I ask that you explain what value you place on discussing the behavior and beliefs of some professing Christians to the verity of Scripture? If you reject the Bible, there is no basis for a serious discussion of Christ, Christians, or Christianity.

The point I was attempting to convey is that the perception of biblical truth is dependent on enlightenment of the individual by the Author of Scripture. Man, in his morally fallen state, is incapable of grasping biblical truth. He may acquire some intellectual cognition; but, apart from God enabling him, he is incapable of believing in his heart.

"Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy is fulfilled which says,

'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.'
Matthew 13:13-15

"...Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:43-44

"All that the Father gives Me will come to ME, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." John 6:37

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the CALLED according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, who He predestined, these He also CALLED; whom He CALLED, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

Amen, MACV!

First time I have ever agreed with MACV in it's Entirety but AMEN MACV Double AMEN.

Larry

Rather than respond with a "back at ya" snippet on not abiding your criticism of biblical interpretation solely, I ask that you explain what value you place on discussing the behavior and beliefs of some professing Christians to the verity of Scripture? If you reject the Bible, there is no basis for a serious discussion of Christ, Christians, or Christianity.
The point I was attempting to convey is that the perception of biblical truth is dependent on enlightenment of the individual by the Author of Scripture. Man, in his morally fallen state, is incapable of grasping biblical truth. He may acquire some intellectual cognition; but, apart from God enabling him, he is incapable of believing in his heart.
Posted by MACV1972 at 2006-12-15 06:27 AM

Where does the bible teach mathematics, linguistics, biology, physics, medicine, astronomy, geology, etc? How can you claim to understand the workings of God if you do not study them? If anything, the bible proves that religious people are easily closed-off from many things that are relatively complex, that fundamentally require questions and thoughtful analysis. Biblical Christians prefer a simple explanation through very dubious interpretation of scripture.

One might imagine that other philosophy would be touched upon - but you read words such as "the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out", "man, in his morally fallen state" and that is the end of that line of thought. Anything to the contrary is considered blasphemy.

In short, spirituality doesn't begin or end with the bible.

Are you familiar with the worship of Mithra? Isn't biblical Christianity just another flavor of stolen religion?

What do you really know about Jonah, Noah or even King Harrod? Those biblical renditions are fantastic, and proven to be false, yet you still believe that the bible is written perfectly? I'm not sure that you are caring enough about Christianity to defend it properly. Ignoring what the bibles flaws are is just an open door to personal ridicule for all Christians. I do consider anti-pluralism to be barbaric, therefore in my view many Christians are uncivilized. Feed the poor, but not with misunderstood translations and false stories.

Oh, and this pastor was a gay man. He led his congregation for 28 years without that being a problem. Homosexuals are just as spiritual as anyone else. Look at what lengths this man went to provide for his congregation.

Where does the bible teach mathematics, linguistics, biology, physics, medicine, astronomy, geology, etc? How can you claim to understand the workings of God if you do not study them? If anything, the bible proves that religious people are easily closed-off from many things that are relatively complex, that fundamentally require questions and thoughtful analysis. Biblical Christians prefer a simple explanation through very dubious interpretation of scripture.

One might imagine that other philosophy would be touched upon - but you read words such as "the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out", "man, in his morally fallen state" and that is the end of that line of thought. Anything to the contrary is considered blasphemy.

In short, spirituality doesn't begin or end with the bible.

Are you familiar with the worship of Mithra? Isn't biblical Christianity just another flavor of stolen religion?

What do you really know about Jonah, Noah or even King Harrod? Those biblical renditions are fantastic, and proven to be false, yet you still believe that the bible is written perfectly? I'm not sure that you are caring enough about Christianity to defend it properly. Ignoring what the bibles flaws are is just an open door to personal ridicule for all Christians. I do consider anti-pluralism to be barbaric, therefore in my view many Christians are uncivilized. Feed the poor, but not with misunderstood translations and false stories.

Oh, and this pastor was a gay man. He led his congregation for 28 years without that being a problem. Homosexuals are just as spiritual as anyone else. Look at what lengths this man went to provide for his congregation.

Posted by redlightrobot at 2006-12-15 01:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Bible is God's revelation to man. I'm quite certain that if God deemed mathematics, linguistics, biology, physics, medicine, astronomy, or geology to be essential to man's sin problem, which has placed him under the wrath of God's justice, He would have included them in that revelation. Obviously, He hasn't. Your inability to grasp biblical truth is hardly proof that the Bible is false. You might make a case for some minor copyist errors; but nothing regarding doctrinal truth.

Of course, you can rail against God and His Word to your last breath; but, you should at least thank Him for the breath you have.

"The Bible is God's revelation to man" - MACV1972

Well thanks, man, that certainly clears that up.

Was there ever a more arrogant assertion, other than most of the rest of that fictional book you swear by?

"The Bible is God's revelation to man" - MACV1972

Well thanks, man, that certainly clears that up.

Was there ever a more arrogant assertion, other than most of the rest of that fictional book you swear by?

Posted by sitdown at 2006-12-15 10:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

You say it is fiction. Evidently, it isn't addressed to you. That would explain your inability to receive it.

Second Gay outed as Evangelist!

The Bible is God's revelation to man. I'm quite certain that if God deemed mathematics, linguistics, biology, physics, medicine, astronomy, or geology to be essential to man's sin problem, which has placed him under the wrath of God's justice, He would have included them in that revelation. Obviously, He hasn't. Your inability to grasp biblical truth is hardly proof that the Bible is false. You might make a case for some minor copyist errors; but nothing regarding doctrinal truth.
Of course, you can rail against God and His Word to your last breath; but, you should at least thank Him for the breath you have.
Posted by MACV1972 at 2006-12-15 10:16 PM

True enough. I do not believe that only through biblical expression is appreciation of life possible. The people who can find meaning in those words might also find meaning in mathematical formula or a recipe. The difference being that two of the three are finite in their interpretations and outcome. In that manner religion attempts to confer an equal footing with science, logic and reason, but cannot overcome factors of it's own creation and meaning. Imo, the Bible was not really designed to be taken literally, any interpretation is valid. There are "enlightening" aspects to it's "ambiguity", but are always severely crippled by people of limited perspective who stifle creative thought and insist on their correctness. I'm not sure that I will ever be a fervent believer in anything other than the ancient power of self-delusion.

Too true, RLR.

If I were still a Christian, I might say something like "Jesus is the Word" not the Bible. The Bible is only one way to gain knowledge of The Word (Jesus) - and it will always be a poor and limited representation of The Word.

Treating the Bible as inerrant and literal severely limits one's knowledge of The Word, no matter how much one memorizes or understands the word. It makes one dependent on the translations of men, the context of the times those men lived, and the bias introduced by those men.

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.