Wow,

I want one of those, and a windmill to make my own fuel for it too.

Anything that get us off of our addiction to foreign oil is good. If we did not use oil, I'd like to see how Iran would fund terrorism, how Saudi Arabia would fund terrorism, how Venezuela would try to buy a seat in the security council, etc.

"A windmill? Oh no, it will ruin the view. We care about the environment, as long as it is convenient." -- faux environmentalists from northeastern states like Massachuessets.

2586,

Nonsense, we have so much wide open spaces out in the wide open spaces with so much wind blowing that the trees grow sideways.

It is all going to waste.

We have production lines sitting idle up in Detroit and the windmill is no more complex to manufacture than an automatic transmission.

Water + electricity makes hydrogen and oxygen.

Collection and distribution is simple engineering.

We could have more good manufacturing jobs, cleaner air, less noise.

We could lead the world into a better future.

Lets get on with it.

Let the arabs drink their dammed oil.

"Let the arabs drink their dammed oil.

Posted by Mista Kurtz "

Let them use for lubrication, for when they f**k their cammels.

It will never fly, the likes of Halliburton, exxon, texico and such will never allow this to take hold.

Wait, yes they will, if they get the no bid contract to control the production of making the fuel.

I have a bet with my friend that Fuel cell will be out before 2010. It looks like the bet is still up in the air

The major problem with Hydrogen is that it takes such a large tank to store the same energy, it makes using the element impractical right now

And what about the water that is produced by these things? Can the Earth handle millions of these things adding millions of gallons of water to the atmosphere? What will they do to the weather?

At least they are trying.

At least they are trying.

I agree, they should be pushing this as far and as fast as possible.

If I were the Japanese I would be making them available full tilt in Japan and also making the fuel at a speed no other country can support.

The whole idea is to get the market from the get go, and they are at the leading edge.

The major problem with Hydrogen is that it takes such a large tank to store the same energy, it makes using the element impractical right now

Not according to the article.. It said this new Honday can travel 270 miles on 8.8 gallons.. It gets the equivalent of 65 miles per gallon...

We are talking liquid hydrogen, yes?

(I apologize, I came into this thread very late and didn't have a chance to read the article, as I have to go to work in about 30 seconds; I'll check back in during my lunch hour.)

no

"We are talking liquid hydrogen, yes?"

Where every car wreck has the potential of the Challenger explosion.

The major problem with using hydrogen is distribution; you need hydrogen filling stations to be as plentiful as gasoline filling stations. Therefore, we have the classic chicken and egg situation. Car mfgs don't want to produce them until the the number of filling stations has reached critical mass and builders of filling stations don't want to build them until there is a critical mass of hydrogen cars. Therefore, a primary role for our federal government should be to INCENTIVIZE THE BUILDOUT OF THE HYDROGEN DISTRIRBUTION INFRASTRUCTURE. The monies required to make this happen should initially come from the royalties collected from Big Oil and could be sustained by increasing the federal tax on gasoline until such time as critical mass is reached.

Big oil should have NOTHING to do with alternative energy development and distribution. I don't trust that they would enthustically pursue goals that would diminish the value of their current investments in the oil infrastructure. We need an entirely different set of actors. Furthermore, they should be prohibited from taking controlling interests in companies that are involved in the alternative energy industry.

Fedupwithpols is correct about distribution

All the propaganda about hydrogen is bullshit especially the Hindenburg analogy about compressed hydrogen.
Many people survived and most that did die,died from buring diesel (it had several 5000 gal tanks for engines)remember that hydrogen burns up(hence lighter than air) it does not spread out and stick to objects like hydrocarbon fires.

I so hope this comes to fruition. Oil companies will not like this however.

Data, you are probably one of the best people to aske, is the fact that the bi-product of these cars is water a concern? The way I see it, we will no longer have to rely on natural reserves and instead can rely on the water produced from using hydrogen cars.

A windmill? Oh no, it will ruin the view. We care about the environment, as long as it is convenient." --
Regrettably, wind turbines are the new NIMBY and BANANA targets all over the place. People apparently believe electricity spontaneously grows in electrical outlets.
If you think Bush's WMD dinfo was bogus, you ought to hear what the ludites are saying about them. And yes, the Kennedy gang are just as self-serving as anybody with a pretty view they don't want disturbed.

Tax
Brief chemistry review:

Burning: Two parts hydrogen, H, and one part oxygen, O, combine to yield H2O and heat.

Water is present in all car exhaust, it's the steam and drip you see in the Winter.

Since air is the O source and air is ~80% N, there will still be oxides of Nitrogen, even if we do get the carbon off the table.

I always liked this particular alien life form on Star Trek,; One that referred to humans, Klingons, Vulcans, etc. as "Ugly bags of mostly water."

NG3
Without debating windmills, folks don't even want those ugly wires out there bringing them the electricity. So your "grows from outlets" metaphor is even more apropo.

"A windmill? Oh no, it will ruin the view."

My hometown put up a windfarm earlier this year....it is up and running now. The local folks are really embracing it.

This will only increase dependance on foreign methane.

I drove the last generation Honda FCX about a month ago and am looking forward to driving the newest model, when it comes to southern California. Wind energy, solar and ocean energy all need to be looked at as ways to create renewable energy to get this country off fossils fuels.

By the way, there are some pretty cool looking wind turbines now days, especially the small models for home use, that look nothing like the big, ugly windmill my grandfather had on his farm. I think these small wind turbines that are high on design will one day take over the rooftops of the nation.

We have several windmill farms just outside of our city, Palm Springs. They are majestic, set against the mountains in our desert valley. They are also somewhat hypnotizing, mysterious and statuesque.

Not a problem for us, considering the benefits.

RE: Hydrogen.

Weird to see this post this A.M. as we just watch the bruising documentary "Who killed the electric car?" last night.

One fact blew us away: It takes 4 times the amount of energy to produce and deliver Hydrogen fuels than both electricity and current oil conversion.

There is a wonderous scene of Chimp Bush pumping Hydrogen into a test model, asking the 'attendant' about the effects of hydrogen on the enviroment, and a shot of Karl Rove lurking in the background on his cell phone.

Chimp is all smirks and dollar signs in his eyes. He killed the electric car with his hydrogen fuel-cell incentive program which will increase his Masters's profits four-fold.

Electric was the right thing to do and it's dissapearance from the market is a warning sign to everyone who dreams of an alternative system. It Will Never Occur.
In a country where Hummer Tax breaks equalled $100,000.00 and electric car tax breaks equaled 4,000.00 you've got to be an idiot not to see where this current administration's lyalties lie...

And don't give me any crap about inefficient batteries for electric. Rent the documentary "Who killed the electric car?" and you will meet the inventor of the current battery system which, BTW, G.M bought, then conveiniantly sold off to Texaco, who mothballed it.

< Electric was the right thing to do and it's dissapearance from the market ... >

The electric car hasn't been killed and in fact it's making a comeback. The Tesla Roadster and the Commuter Car Tango are two electric cars now available with several more due out next year. Because of GM's guilt over the electric car fiasco, they are introducing a plug-in hybrid electric car early next year with better gas mileage than anything else on the road today.

In 2007, two hydrogen cars are rolling out in limited production, the BMW Hydrogen 7 and the Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell vehicle. With the BMW drivers don't have to worry about the hydrogen infrastructure being built since it will run on gasoline as well as hydrogen.

From the article ....

"The hydrogen can be refined from a number of sources, including coal, natural gas and methane."
----
The only way to produce hydrogen is by burning other fuels. The power for an electric car begins with burning coal.

Give it up people. Your fantasy about inexhaustible energy with no environmental implications is just that. A fantasy.

The hydrogen fantasy is just a variation of the recycling fantasy: You know, recycle your paper and plastic so it doesn't go to the landfill. Instead, it consumes vastly more energy to recycle.

Hydrogen is just one other way of moving the energy around. But it still begins with coal or some other fossil fuel.

(same thing with ethanol, by the way)

"The only way to produce hydrogen is by burning other fuels."

Posted by vernon

Review your chemistry, Vern.

"Hydrogen is just one other way of moving the energy around. But it still begins with coal or some other fossil fuel."

Today, producing hydrogen usually begins with a fossil fuel. Tomorrow, it doesn't have to and this is why so much research money is being poured into renewable energy (wind, solar, geothermal, ocean energy, high altitude wind energy) and cleaner forms of non-renewable energy such as clean coal technology ala FutureGen or fourth generation, nuclear reactors that can crack water at very high temperatures and produce hydrogen.

Sorry America but I really need to say this...

WTG JAPAN!!!

I love America mind you, but once again
the Jap's have beaten us to the punch...

I'm glad someone is pushing the envelope
of Green Auto Design...

Too bad the American Auto Industry has tried to keep us hooked to Oil for so long...I think they are finally just starting to get the message...

once again....Bravo Japan!!
keep on pushing the envelope...

Yep, I knew I was wrong as soon as I hit the button, and I was pretty damn sure the visually-challenged one would be there to rip me for it.

Now, I'm hoping this technology works out. Solve the pressurization and containment problems (which, unless my mmeory fails, they've gone a long way towards), and you're golden. Not simply for reasons of capital or environment; it simply satisfies the geek in me.

Vernon: Hydrogen only through only burning other fuels? Sorry, no. I've seen projects (these are pilots, mind you, small scale) in which hydrogen was produced through solar panels. Again, I'm going on memory only here, but I think they were using the panels to heat water to boiling and seperating teh hydrogen out from there, without needing a fuel source to power the seperation process. I will look for the link for this (though I can't promise I can show it here properly, my html skills suck).

$600 to $700 a month lease?

No thanks.

I hope all of the R&D for alternative fuels does indeed pay big dividends down the road.

However, right now, the common internal combustion engine is still the best way to go.

If only the US would lower her emissions standards to the point where deisel engines were available on passenger cars....you know, just like the Kyoto-hugging European countries (where deisels run rampant).

The Spallino family in Redondo Beach, California are paying $500 per month for a lease of the last generation Honda FCX since June 2005. Like all leases, no one is putting a gun to your head to make you take the deal. I'm betting more than a few celebrities would like to roll up on the red carpet to their movie premier in a brand new BMW Hydrogen 7 next year.

"where deisels(sic) run rampant"

Actually Diesels are the most efficient way to do it. I'm holding out for Mr Fusion.

Review your chemistry, Vern.

Posted by DATA at 2006-11-16 11:55 AM | Reply

I know my chemistry. This technology is probably 50 years away. Anybody reading this thread will be long dead before hydrogen is a significant energy source.

We live in the petroleum age. It's the best technology we have. Get over it. Or go put on your hemp-based sweathshirt and sort garbage. And beg Gaia to forgive you for breathing her air.

Jeff,
I had a diesel in a 1985 VW Golf. It was excellent!

"I know my chemistry."

If you did, you'd know burning is the combination of hydrogen and oxygen to make water, releasing heat.

Now if you were referring to burning something else to perform hydrolysis, you are correct.

I'm still holding out for Mr Fusion.

Vernon,

I had a diesel VW Rabbit in the '80s. Except for the winter months, it was absolutely great. During the winter months, it was really a nuisance to keep puting fuel stabilizer in it to keep the fuel from congealing.

If I lived in a warmer climate, I would seriously consider another diesel because of the advancements in producing clean diesel fuel.

boy...can really tell who are the
members/stockholders in the Oil lobby...

oil is great, it has served us well for
the last couple hundred years or so in
this country...but, as with all things,
its time is coming to a close...

hydrogen fuel, solar fuel, and wind farms are the technology of the future...and all are viable technologies today...(by which I mean they all have working useable devices which implement their technology)...

the problem is (esp. w hydrogen) with building the necessary infrastructure to be able to switch over to the new fuel source...

making hydrogen fuel is easy, anyone hear of electrolysis? You can seperate hydrogen from oxygen in water with few problems. The problem has been in storage of liquid hydrogen (which requires v. cool temps and pressure to keep it in liquid state), and in the non-existent infrastructure needed to deliver it in mass quantity to the public...

As for solar and wind, they are gtg...
(good to go) right now, and if our government would properly invest in them,
then they would soon replace coal and nuclear plants as our cities primary source of electricity...

Dont believe me? Google hydrogen fuel, solar energy, and wind energy and re-educate yourself...there are plenty of good sites out there which can inform you...

"burning something else to perform hydrolysis"

I think you mean electrolysis. If so, then you are correct.

"making hydrogen fuel is easy, anyone hear of electrolysis?"

That is one way to make H2, but that obviously requires electricity which must be generated by consuming something else.

Data,
I may have initially mistaken what you meant when I posted at 5:30. I was thinking you meant burning something to generate electricity. By hydrolysis perhaps you were referring to steam reforming, which would be considered a hydrolysis reaction.

"I know my chemistry. This technology is probably 50 years away. Anybody reading this thread will be long dead before hydrogen is a significant energy source.

We live in the petroleum age. It's the best technology we have. Get over it. Or go put on your hemp-based sweathshirt and sort garbage. And beg Gaia to forgive you for breathing her air." by Vernon

Thats the problem with you repubs, never thinking about the future. You should reread a few times and let it sink in a little....

Here's a wacko thought (begging forgiveness...)

I can imagine a time when western nations are planting wind farms everywhere to wean us off our dependance for oil.

And they would make excellent targets for madmen in cars/boats/bikes filled with explosives to detroy these kinds of technologies so we'd have to stick with oil...

I know, that and a nickle will get me a gum ball...