No matter, Israel and the United States can kill anyone with impunity without having multinational media label them terrorists. Everybody knows that.

This is usual method of attack used by Israel. Killing innocent women and children

"The Israeli military immediately expressed regret for the civilian deaths and ordered a halt to all artillery, naval and other shellfire into the sealed-off Strip. "

Never mind the fact it was an accident...

Never mind the fact it was an accident...

Posted by American1st at 2006-06-09 11:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Which part? Tha fact that they fired artillery into the strip or the fact that they fired artillery blindy into the strip?

Ooopsie....my bad!

I didn't know the guns were loaded. When did Dick Cheney take over running the Israeli Navy?

'The Israeli military confirmed that its gunboats stationed off the 45km (28-mile) coastal strip had fired "towards" sites where Palestinian militants launch Qassam rockets into Israel, but they insisted that naval and aerial fire was not responsible and that its inquiry was instead focusing on land-based artillery batteries that fire daily from north and east of Gaza.'


Yeah, gotta put that "towards" in parenthesis...like any good leftist reporter should.Nevermind the fact they were returning fire for fire

oh yeah....."Oopsie...my bad"


SMF

Excellent posts A1st, No one needs to shed a tear for those terrorists. Wah!!! Wah!!! you pathetic commies !!

Those children were terrorists, good riddance! There is no need for Israel to apologize to anyone over this, they got what they had coming to them. Too bad they didn't kill more.

I completely support the Israelis who cheer in the deaths of these anti-semites.

Kill all them ragheads, I say.

Including and especially their children!

It is a tragedy when civilians are inadvertently killed in the process of Israel defending itself from terrorists.

It is even sadder when Palestinian civilians are used as human shields and then as political currency to curry international sympathy.

It is even sadder when Israeli civilians are repeatedly INTENTIONALLY targetted for suicide terrorist attacks.

Anyone care to describe the difference between this incident and a terrorist attack?

What complete BS you spout ZEBEDIA. Like you or any Israeli cares one fig about the survival any palestinian. Your hypocrisy is exceeded only by your racial hatred.

"Anyone care to describe the difference between this incident and a terrorist attack?"

I'm surprised GZ Lives hasen't been defending, errr.... describing it already.

I'm really beginning to think Israel does NOT want peace at all. Israel is daily pounding on Bush and his Neocons to go to war with Iran and now the Israeli army and navy are firing on a beach where they had to know Palestian civilians would be present during the hot summer months. I'm beginning to lose respect for Israel.

"Anyone care to describe the difference between this incident and a terrorist attack?"

I am not trying to defend or condone Israel's blunder, but in an attempt to be fair I would say that the difference between a terrorist attack and this incident is that, while the results of the first are generally intended, the results of this incident were not (tragic as they were).

There is enough blame for both sides. Anyone who really cares about Palestine or Israel would be more worried about the coming violence than pointing fingers.

There must be elements within Hamas who aren't exactly disappointed with getting an opportunity to end the cease-fire.

Usually I don't comment on Israeli relations, but this incident is just heinous.

If the Israeli government is trying to make the claim they are "the good guys", they are really doing a shitty fucking job.

"Anyone care to describe the difference between this incident and a terrorist attack?"

In a terrorist attack the cowards strap explosives to their own bodies where as in an attack like this the heroic defenders of freedom fire from safe positions miles away.

CalifChris had it right, Israel does not seem to want peace with Palestine. That might lead to things like the Palestinians having some economic freedom, which would cost Israel billions.

"
"Which part? Tha fact that they fired artillery into the strip or the fact that they fired artillery blindy into the strip?"

First of all it was an accident.

Second of all why were the IDF even shelling the area to begin with? Duhhhh perhaps its because each and every day the Pals fire Qassam rockets into Israel ... so all of you screaming for Israel to withdraw from Gaza, this is the results. I'[ll say it again so perhaps you'll understand. Every single day, rockets are fired into Israel from Gaza, the Israelis have three choices. They can do nothing and just let the rockets keep coming emboldening the Pal militants, they can mount an incursion which will have all of you screaming and yelling OR they can try and shell the area and every so often send in F16's .... what would you do?

IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz ordered an end to the shelling of northern Gaza - aimed at deterring militants from firing Qassam rockets - until the completion of the investigation into the civilian deaths. The military also offered the Palestinians assistance in the wake of the strike, saying that the wounded could be evacuated to Israeli hospitals.

A nine-year-old boy seriously wounded in the shelling was transferred to Israel for treatment Saturday morning.

Major General Yoav Galant, head of the IDF Southern Command, said Friday evening that the army is looking into the circumstances of the explosion. In addition to the more likely scenario that a shell strayed from its path, the army was also exploring whether the explosion might have been caused by a "work accident."

"It is not our intention to harm innocent civilians. We are investigating the incident in order to try to clarify what happened here," Galant said, adding that the IDF is aware of areas in which civilians are present, and that military gunners are ordered to prevent firing on these areas.

Defense Minister Amir Peretz was to receive the results of the investigation Saturday evening, Israel Radio said.

"CalifChris had it right, Israel does not seem to want peace with Palestine. That might lead to things like the Palestinians having some economic freedom, which would cost Israel billions."

Huh ? What kind of ass backwards logic is this? Cost them billions ? What do you think the current situation has done to the Israeli economy in case you haven't noticed? Its decimated it.

Its absurd to claim that Israel doesn't want peace. Can the Pals disarm their militant groups that operate freely and without any authority ? No ... so there's no peace until that becomes a reality. Try and imagine if you can that in the West Bank and Gaza there is primarily anarchy with the pretense of governance. Its anarchy with several different heavily armed militant groups calling their own shots and you think there's some other reason why this all doesn't end? Didn't you notice the in fighting in the last few weeks between Fatah and Hamas? They were killing eachother and you think Israel can somehow make peace while all of this exists?

Whenever you have that sudden kneejerk itch, remember where this all starts. Here's the exercise Chris - if there were no suicide bombers, there'd be no security fence, no checkpoints. If there were no Qassam rockets fired into Israel everyday, there'd be no shelling, no F16 strikes.

See if you can do that without giving in to the urge to go all the way back to 1948 where some will say the Jews have no right to be there in the first place and I would say, the Pals rejected the mandate in 1948 and tried to destroy the Jews and they lost, and then they lost another four times. If they would have won in 1948, there'd be no Israel and its doubtful all those screaming now for the poor Palestinians wouldn't be saying one word about the Jews right?

"Anyone care to describe the difference between this incident and a terrorist attack?"

I'm surprised GZ Lives hasen't been defending, errr.... describing it already."

I obviously have to post to describe it accurately since not one of you - not a single post even mentions why the Israelis were shelling in the first placeright?

This was a horrible accident and should never have had to be - like the security fence, like the checkpoints and all the rest of it.

All of those things are RESPONSES to ACTIONS ... for every action there is a reaction.

No suicide bombers no security fence, no checkpoints.

No daliy barrage of rockets fired into Northern Israel, no shelling, no F16's.

Do you all think any civilized country would stand for their neighbors firing rockets at them every day?

Can any of you imagine what the response would be if the Mexicans fired rockets at Texas or the Canadians fired rockets into Michigan ?

Does it excuse what happened NO it doesn't, but it does explain why all of it is happening to begin with which is something so many of you here seem to prefer to ignore.

I see the Whine is here.

I'll go get some cheese.

I would have thought the coordinates of that beach would have been as well known to any Israeli gunnery officer as their own address. Perhaps that's the point.

"I see the Whine is here.

I'll go get some cheese."

Whine ? In your dreams my friend
Why not try and deal with my argument instead of throwing your own stereotypical fantasies at me ? I'm no whinny Jew and perhaps you haven't noticed but that particular Jewish stereotype is far from the truth and using it only makes you look veru foolish.

Do you even have an argument or is it all kneejerk leftwing Israel is bad Palestiniasn are good ?

Whoa there Zed!

You're starting to sound like an anti-semite!

Far from the truth my ass.

You whine.

Put another way: the Israelis used artillery without being able to distinguish the beach from where the rockets actually were?

"I would have thought the coordinates of that beach would have been as well known to any Israeli gunnery officer as their own address. Perhaps that's the point."

I didn't realize that shelling is 100% accurate all the time every time and never ever strays ... it just never happens. Is that what you're saying ZED ?

They're investigating it because the IDF itself has said they knew there were civilians on the beach .... now given that statement, do you really think they deliberately shelled the beach to kill civilians ?

And that's the point.

The second point is why the shelling is going on in the first place.

Care to comment on that aspect or is it enough to just condemn the Israelis ?

Just curious.

Clearly the IDF knows there were civilians and has made that perfectly clear. But let me get this straight. There can never be a shell that strays? Its always 100% accurate?

Here's the statement from the IDF

"It is not our intention to harm innocent civilians. We are investigating the incident in order to try to clarify what happened here," Galant said, adding that the IDF is aware of areas in which civilians are present, and that military gunners are ordered to prevent firing on these areas."

these fuckers are going to run out of virgins if they keep this up

"I didn't think shelling is 100% accurate...."

I think we need to find out how far those rockets were from the beach and how many shells were dropped on the beach.

This would go far to determine how much of an accident occurred here.

Did a gunner aim at the beach?
Did a shell stray?
Was it an accident?

Does it even matter why the Israelis were shelling in the first place?

'military gunners are ordered to prevent firing on those areas".

They obviously don't take orders very well.

"Did a shell stray....?"

If it's artillery from land, then logic dictates shells overshot itended targets and landed elsewhere.

But it's difficult to see how a shell overshoots anything accidently, save if the accident is with the coordinates given in the first place.

Yeah OK ITSME .. you're right I'm whiny, cheap, have a hooknose, manipulate the world from the shadows, I'm an evil neo con, I'm a Zionist, I drink the blood of gentile children and use it in religious rituals, I make the crops fail, I make the rain stop, I have gold hidden in my basement, I manipulate the world currencies etc

What have I missed that ypur small mind actually believes?

As I said before do you have an argument aside from your obvious inclinations to call me names?

Whatever it is ZED, they'll find out and meanwhile the rockets continue to be fired into Israel and so I suppose the Israelis in order to stop the rockets and not to shell the Palestinian civilians, will at some point either use F16's or mount an incursion into Gaza itself which will incur all sorts of claims from the leftists of the world including Israeli leftists, but they will stop the rockets and they do have the right to defend their own citizens since the PA will not or can not stop it themselevs.

Hamas of course supports these attacks on Israel so what are the Israelis to do?

Those who think this was not intentional are living in a fantasy world. This was intentional just like Haditha and thousands of other war crimes. What was not intentional was the press coverage.

"'military gunners are ordered to prevent firing on those areas".

They obviously don't take orders very well."

Yeah .. its much easier to just strap on a bomb and go looking for the largest crowd of civilians you can find right?

"Those who think this was not intentional are living in a fantasy world. This was intentional just like Haditha and thousands of other war crimes. What was not intentional was the press coverage."

Poor CYNIC laboring under all those leftwing fantasies.

First of all, you make the claim about Haditha as if its a foregone conclusion that US troops engaged in some massacre. You do this despite knowing fully well that Al Queda in Iraq had a tactic of killing certain population groups like Shia or Kurds in the hopes of igniting a civil war. You ignore the very good possibility that these people were all killed deliberately so as to be used as propaganda ...

and you do the same about the Israelis.

You obviously have more faith in brutal murderers like Zirqawi and Hamas then you do in your own country. Do you believe your friends, people you've met in the US would kill men women and children ? You already know that Zirqawi did this all the time? And you would take the word of others rather then what you know about your own people?

Sorry, but I'd bet the Americans did not massacre anyone and I'd bet the Israelis did NOT order anyone to shell civilians and I'm sorry you live with this particular self hating attitude.

Yeah .. its much easier to just strap on a bomb and go looking for the largest crowd of civilians you can find right?

Those suicide vests leave quite a tan line after a day at the beach.

Self hating? Too funny.

Glad I could make you laugh ....

ITSME ... remember a place called Jenin? For days all media especailly BBC ran 24/7 reports that the Israelis massacred all these Palestinians in the Jenin refugee camp. Do you remember what the outcome of that was?
Probably not but you already know where this is going right?

It was a bullshit propaganda ploy from Palestinians and sadly it worked because much of the world is always ready willing and able to report the worst about Israel.

There was never any massacre in Jenin although I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of people who tuned out the results of the investigations that were performed weeks later that found no massacre had ever taken place.

You sound exactly like one of those people.

"A British forensic expert who has gained access to the West Bank city of Jenin says evidence points to a massacre by Israeli forces.
Prof Derrick Pounder, who is part of an Amnesty International team granted access to Jenin, said he has seen bodies lying in the streets and received eyewitness accounts of civilian deaths.
The Dundee University expert said the Amnesty investigation has only just begun but Palestinian claims of a massacre were gaining foundation as the team continued its analysis." BBC April 18, 2002

JENIN, West Bank - Palestinian officials yesterday put the death toll at 56 in the two-week Israeli assault on Jenin, dropping claims of a massacre of 500 that had sparked demands for a U.N. investigation.

The official Palestinian body count, which is not disproportionate to the 33 Israeli soldiers killed in the incursion, was disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, after a team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reported to him in his Jenin office.

[Two weeks ago, when European and particularly London newspapers were reporting estimates of "hundreds" massacred, Israeli sources in Washington said they expected the Palestinian toll to reach "45 to 55."] Washington Times May 1 2002

"but you already know where this is going right"?

Yeah. More whining.

"You ignore the possibility that all these people (Haditha) were killed for use as propaganda...."

There will be Marines convicted of deliberately executing children in this incident.

I don't know what to tell you. The Marines may have been almost as much vitims as those they killed, since by report many were on their third combat tour of Iraq.

Now, I know whom to blame for that. He's out riding a bike somewhere.

"Yeah .. its much easier to just strap on a bomb and go looking for the largest crowd of civilians you can find right?"

Yeah, people do weird shit when they're backed into a corner.

Bike riding is hars werk.

Apparently, so is spelling.

Should be hard werk.

Hey ITSME


WHINE THIS !! (use that vivid imagination of yours)

I'm so happy to see we're down to correcting my grammar and spelling rather then making a decent argument.

Sad and pathetic

"Yeah, people do weird shit when they're backed into a corner."

And you believe its reasonable, acceptable and no big deal?

And what corner was that by the way?

if I remember correctly the Pals were given half the Brit mandate in 1948 and REJECTED IT ... so who backed who into a corner ?

The Pals were gaian offered various plans for statehood and REJECTED IT .. so I wonder where that corner originated from?

gaian = again

Hey righties-lets make a deal here-have your National Convention on the Beach-in Gaza.
It'd be....wait for it.....Da Bomb...

I'd be willing to bet you'd have a ......Bang-up-......time.

How did I know that GZ would be all up in here putting his spin on reality. If the pals would have done it then it would be called a terrorist action.

Im glad to see most of the board see's reality finally

I didn't disparage Israel. I just wondered how experienced artillery professionals failed to recognize where the beach was.

Zebedia are you jewish?

ANGRYDAD,

You'll excuse me if I pass on reading for the thousandth time a primer on Israel and how it all came to be ... that's not what this is about is it or else we can go back even more in time to when the Wall of the Jewish temple was built - by Palestinian Arabs I suppose eh?

The Jews are there and not going anywhere ... you say the Palestinians are backed into some corner, I say that corner is of their own doing. I further say that they continuously miss opportunity after opportunity. Abbas is calling for a referendum for a 2 State solution with the 1967 borders ... which means ANGRYDAD that now the Palestinians are willing to accept something they already had 40 .. that would be FORTY YEARS AGO ... do you see my point?

You may not want to accept this fact but Arafat stole billions from his people and kept them from ever having a state. His wife in Paris receives 100,000 USD a month and has millions in a bank account.

You want to blame this on someone without debating if the Jews should even be there - blame it on Arafat who never wanted any peace. Blame it on the PA who cannot or will not disarm out of control heavily armed militant groups that just a week ago WERE KILLING EACH OTHER. These are the same groups that have vowed to kill Jews and destory Israel and so let me get this straight - the Israelis should what exactly .. give them a big kiss and walk away. Sing Kumbaya maybe?

Remember something - Hamas SUPPORTS those militants firing rockets into ISrael and any of the operations mounted by the terror thugs, I say, people who play with matches will get burned and now and then innocent people will sadly get burned along with them. That's all that happened. A tragic awful event however, the asshole militants firing rockets will continue to get an Israeli response no matter how much EUROPE WHINES ... or how much you all whine. And if it was happening to you, I bet you'd want a response as well.

JACKASS,

Whats the difference if he's a Jew ... we've already determined that you believe not a single Jew has ever contributed anything to America. Not Einstein, not Jonas Salk who conquered polio, not the guys who give you the ability to IM or use a cell phone or Lotus, Do I really need to go on JACKASS ?

In this argument JACK, you have zero credibility .. go back to your favorite web site Jew Watch .. that's more your speed.

"I'd bet you'd want a response too....?"

Sure. But if I had forty years to pre-determine coordinates in Gaza, I'd perfer my response to include such knowledge.

I didn't disparage Israel. I just wondered how experienced artillery professionals failed to recognize where the beach was.

I'm sure in the days to come we'll find out how

and JACKASS ... I'm here BECAUSE YOU'RE HERE .. know what I mean?

I've gotten whiplash over the years between the irreconciliable attitudes that "our guys would never do that" and "shit happens in war".

What seems to be true is that both thoughts are held simultaneiulsy by many, leading to a paradox useful to maintain because responsibility is left in an ethical aether.

Whups. "Simultaneously". That is a correct spelling of "aether".

"I say that corner is of their own doing."

That's where you'd be incorrect. As I said earlier, your knowledge of history is limited, at best. Do a little research.

GZ of course it makes a difference if he is jewish or not. It guages how objective he is. When I have discussions with you it's obvious how objective you are, Not at all.

Wasn't it the "Promised Land" to begin with?

And another thing, I'd like to see the terror that could be inflicted if the Israeli's didn't have any self restraint, or if the Pals had nukes.

"Wasn't it the "Promised Land" to begin with?"

Sez who ?

In short, I don't think the term "terrorist" can be applied to the Israelis'.

Sez who ?

Certainly not anyone who you could know.

"Certainly not anyone who you could know."

Good answer, smartass.

Are there two kinds of asses? Smart and dumb?

"Are there two kinds of asses? Smart and dumb?"

Possibly...you seem to embody both....

You answered my question. Nuf said.

GZ,
I don't know all the history, and I unfortunately don't have the time to dedicate to reading a primer on the subject.

How come this specific piece of land was deemed appropriate to appropriate? Were there Jews living side by side with non-jewish arabs in this territory before the west created a nation state out of whole cloth?

What was the pre WWII demographic of the area like? What was the pre WWI demographic like? Was this always a "Jewish" homeland? How long ago was Jewish governance driven out and how?

None of these questions are asked to justify terrorism, I just have never heard how the story began other than the parts where the west started drawing borders and offerring people compromises.

Gee, I wonder where all these liberals were when the rockets were launched into Israel? Did they say, "What's the difference between Hamas and a terrorist?"

No. The Israelis make a mistake, apologize for it, cease all activity. But the rockets and shells fly FROM Gaza every day, and the liberals can't be bothered to give a damn. American liberals, too, believe that the Israelis are the source of all the problems in the Middle East, and turn their heads when it's Israelis getting killed, getting shelled, getting rockets fired at them, getting their weddings blown up. That's what happens, they say, when a people "are backed into a corner".

So the question should be: "What's the difference between an American liberal and Hamas?"

"What's the difference between an American liberal and Hamas...?"

So, you and Ann Coulter---Taffee blintz?

What's going on between the Israelis and the Palestinians is nothing more than a tribal revenge cycle, with which the stone age occupants of New Guinea would be very familiar.

It's pretty useless to find morality in it. Just as for the cannibals in New Guinea, things will stop only when someone is advanced enough to drop the axe entirely.

That will certainly entail someone getting hurt without demanding blood in return.

I've got a question---What's the difference between a very inaccurate Palestinian rocket killing kids with thoughts of deliberation and a very acurate Israeli artllery piece killing kids with thoughts its always just possible?

No difference, they're both deceptive. One in thought and one in action.

"How come this specific piece of land was deemed appropriate to appropriate? Were there Jews living side by side with non-jewish arabs in this territory before the west created a nation state out of whole cloth?"

Every year for centuries in every Jewish ritual there's always a passage that says "Next year in Jerusalem". Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people. The wall from the Jewish third temple - the ancient one is right there in East Jerusalem - it PREDATES ISLAM.

Now there are lots of people who dismiss anything having anything to do with the Bible but when was this Bible written and why is Israel and Jerusalem mentioned throughout the text?

"What was the pre WWII demographic of the area like? What was the pre WWI demographic like? Was this always a "Jewish" homeland? How long ago was Jewish governance driven out and how?"

First of all, why go back only as far as WW II or WW 1 ? There have always been Jews living there. At some periods there were more and other periods less.

Here is how Mark Twain, who visited the area in 1867 in his book, "The Innocents Abroad"... "describes the land "A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

The Jews did not displace anyone, because very few of the people who were there actually owned the land. Most were absentee owners residing elsewhere. Another fact hardly mentioned by the "new historians" is that the arriving Jews never threw anyone off any land. All land was purchased legally from the original owners... whether they be from "Palestine" itself or elsewhere. Furthermore, top dollar was paid for this land which, in many cases, was uninhabited and hardly more than swamp land and rocky terrain. Only about 120,000 Arabs resided in an area that now comprises the State of Israel, Jordan and the so-called "West Bank" [Judea and Samaria] in between. By 1890, the number of Jews who had settled in Palestine reached 50,000 and, by 1907, numbered 100,000. In Jerusalem alone the Jews numbered more than 25,000, out of a total population in the city of only 40,000 Jews, Christians and Arabs. The Arabs did, however, constitute a majority over the sparsely populated countryside abutting Jerusalem.

From 1888 until 1915 there were about six locust plagues that made the land nearly uninhabitable. In the 1915 locust plague alone some 40,000 people died and large numbers of Jews and Arabs left the land. Those that returned did not do so until about 1922 when the Zionist money to reclaim the land started coming in and a pipe line was laid. Then both Arabs and Jews started to come in in large numbers.

Palestine's early Jewish Zionists were idealistic pioneers who arrived in pre-state Israel with every intention of living in peace alongside their Arab neighbors and upgrading the quality of life for all of the land's inhabitants. These pre-Israel Zionists (and later, Israelis) had tried to develop peacefully for the dual benefit of Jews and Arabs in the land. But the Arab leadership always, starting in the earliest days, took the low road of insisting that the only solution was for the Jews to get out, even if that meant continued poverty and stagnation. When Arab demands were not met, they always resorted to violence.

There was no "Arab Palestinian" history before the Arabs manufactured one shortly after 1948, and then especially after the June 1967 Arab-Israeli War! In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with the Land of Israel.

"All of these questions and more are answered in this book, and it'll only take a couple of hours to read:

Arabs & Israel for Beginners
By Ron David"

Ron David is nothing more then an apologist for the Arabs .. sorry but he may be well intentioned but his book is full of his own opinion and that can all be summed up by four words:

IT'S ONLY ISRAEL'S FAULT ...

so if you want that particular message by all means read Ron David's book - David is a medical doctor who worked in Gaza under Israeli occupation and has no experiencve or insight writing history.

I'd much more prefer to read someone like Thomas Friedman who is recognized as a Mideast expert.

Friedman was born in the Minneapolis, Minnesota suburb of St. Louis Park. As a child, he attended a Jewish summer camp where a young Abe Foxman was a counselor. In high school, Friedman wrote for his school's paper The Echo, including one article in which he interviewed Ariel Sharon, then an Israeli general, and later, Defence Minister and Prime Minister of Israel.


Yeah right. We can expect Thomas Friedman to be an objective author.

Try again

I'm beginning to actually feel sorry for you JACK ... google Friedman - he's considered one of the world's foremost experts on the Mideast and he's also very much welcome throughout the middle east DESPITE the fact that he's a Jew.

Stop being a complete asshole ... seriously. Or shall I begin to simply deal with you like some Nazi since you are a GERMAN right?

If you're a German then you must be a NAZI JACK .. right ? That's your logic


Do yourself a favor, no one would ever consider Friedman anything but impartial. He's very respected in the Arab world and lived there for many years - go and check it out...

I'd like to see Friedman set foot in an Hamas military camp. I'm sure they will give him a hearty welcome. One he will never forget for as long as he lives.

What planet are you living on? Friedman is a paid propagandist for Israel, he has no credibility whatsover in the Arab community. His only constituency is pigs at the trough sucking up his regurgitated excrement.

Israel is more racist than South Africa under apartheid.

"Ron David is nothing more then an apologist for the Arabs .. sorry but he may be well intentioned but his book is full of his own opinion and that can all be summed up by four words:

IT'S ONLY ISRAEL'S FAULT ..."

Sorry GZ, wrong again. Your credibility is offically shot.

Israel couldn't be more of the OPPOSITE of an aparthaid country. Way to be full of SH*T and have no clue what you're talking about Cynic.

Jackass-- is your best argument-- "you are Jewish, and therefore, I hate you" ?

That is what seems to be your best argument, that + lies, hatred and blatant idiocy. Congratulations on winning the prize for biggest lying idiot on the internet, a nice distinction to show around the Klan rallies and Skinhead camp fires while you're teaching your kids how to be a complete drain on society by focusing all of your energy on hating and lying instead of learning, understanding and being a productive member of society.

GZ,
Thank you for providing your perspective. My Assumptions had been the the "palestinian" people are as you descirbed, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese who happen to live within the borders of Israel.

My larger question was, how did these people, Arab and Jew, througout the middle east (I assume all the Jews had not left the middle east for Europe) live before westerners interfered? Were they hacking each other to bits in 1910? in 1870? in 1776? Will they just always be doing so? If (IF) they weren't . . . if Arabs and Jews lived in close proximity in palestine previous to the drawing of the Israeli border without suicide attacks and gunship retaliation, then maybe just maybe there was a flaw in the plan as executed?

You have said previosly that for Jewish safety, Israel must be a "Jewish State" (without ever explicitly stating what that means.) Perhaps the fact that Israel is a declaratively "Jewish State" is the problems. Would we be going on 80 years of war if Jews had just bought land and moved in without establishing a "state"? Maybe having an ethnically defined "state" is a fundamentally flawed proposition if "safety" is the ultimate goal?

It seems to me that though Jews are far safer in 2006 Israel than in 1930's germany, but far less safe than they are in 2006 America, or France, or Italy, or Belgium . . . something isn't working out here. How long are we gonna keep pretending that it can be made to work?

CYNIC,

Go back to third grade .. thom friedman is almost as bad as you are. I'm floored to read all the crap you and Ray write. Together the both of you know about as much as the average second grader about this subject.

Behold:

"Last week we heard yet another version of the same old lie, this time from Tom Friedman in his February 5th column in The New York Times. Friedman, alleging that President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are secretly controlled by Jews, wrote, "...Mr. Sharon has the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat under house arrest in his office in Ramallah, and he's had George Bush under house arrest in the Oval Office. Mr. Sharon has Mr. Arafat surrounded by tanks, and Mr. Bush surrounded by Jewish and Christian pro-Israel lobbyists, by a vice president, Dick Cheney, who's ready to do whatever Mr. Sharon dictates ... "

From NEWSMAX

"Thomas Friedman's time has passed. When I was in high school, Friedman was "the man." His book, From Beirut to Jerusalem, made the Arab-Israeli conflict accessible to a fresh generation of Middle East junkies and liberal, Diaspora Zionists. A passionate, Jewish-American journalist who empathized with the Palestinian cause, Friedman taught us what was good and bad about Israel. He infused his point of view with personal experiences that were tragic, funny, and insightful, conveying a belief in Zionism with the strong conviction that Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza must end. Nothing terribly original or earth shattering, but compelling reading for us newbies, nonetheless.

When I skim through From Beirut to Jerusalem today, parts of it seem hopelessly naive, given the last ten years' developments. But it's still a decent read, even if one disagrees with some of his conclusions . Friedman's more recent work, however, feels out of touch, despite his connections to Israeli scholars, progressive Arab writers, and Saudi politicians. One is lead to believe that Friedman substitutes facts with a hackneyed, wishful script. He recycles familiar, fundamentalist whitewash and "bad Israel" admonishments, tweaking the language to create the facade of expert perspective."

From Think Israel

Zeb I only put truth in my posts. Palestinians want peace. Pre 1948 borders will bring peace

Yeah that sure sounds like a paid propagandist for Israel ... you're a complete jerk CYNIC .. you must be spoofing

And by the way your comment about Israel being more aprtheid then S Africa a gorss exaggeration and all you're doing is parroting what you read from leftwing web sites.

I can't remember S Africa having blacks in their government can you?
I can't remember S Africa having blacks even living within the big city borders can you?
I can't remmember S Africa giving their blacks the same righte the whites had can you?

So better check the leftyspeak becaue much of it is exaggerated or just completely false

"Zeb I only put truth in my posts. "

Until he says differently JACKASS claims that NO JEWISH AMERICAN has ever contributed a single thing to America ...

Do you still believe this JACK?

I never said that. I said they wanted to benefit their own people more than America in general. The Jewish persons primary goal is to Aid their own first and then if it benefits society thats a secondary goal.

Albery Einstein ... Jonas Salk ...

They did what they did for JEWS??

Well Ray ... what is he? Was I correct in my assertion that Jack ass is an anti semite?

You see this new bullshit to try and get Jews to stop saying when it walks and talks like a duck its a duck, won't work on me. When you talk like a Jew hater, I don't give a rats ass what you think, I'm going to call it as it is ... so Ray, you can try to claim I'm this or that but everyone reading these threads knows clearly that Jackass is an anti semite, Paleocon is an anti semite and you RAY lean that way. Your obsessed with Jews and Israel. I have a reason but whats your excuse?

I didn't know where Jackass was coming from because zionists like you have done such great job of muddling the difference between anti-zionist and anti-semite.

Your obsessed with Jews and Israel. I have a reason but whats your excuse?

I've explained this before. Our ME foreign policy has for the past 60 years been based on protecting and expanding Israel's imperial interests. You are in denial.

If you think I am over critical of Israel, you should read some of the stuff I say about our own government. The American dream is dead. This country is rapidly sinking into a military-police state.

LEADBELLY


"My larger question was, how did these people, Arab and Jew, througout the middle east (I assume all the Jews had not left the middle east for Europe) live before westerners interfered? Were they hacking each other to bits in 1910? in 1870? in 1776? Will they just always be doing so? If (IF) they weren't . . . if Arabs and Jews lived in close proximity in palestine previous to the drawing of the Israeli border without suicide attacks and gunship retaliation, then maybe just maybe there was a flaw in the plan as executed?"

For the most part Arab and Jew lived peacefully albeit with some periods of trouble for the Jews. Jews living under Islamic law meant living as Dhimmis or "People of the Book" which included Christians as well - and this all meant to a large degree second class citizens. They paid an additional tax, Muslims always were given the edge in disputes, in business and so on. They weren't allowed to own land either. There were very old large Jewish communities in Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Ethiopia, and there's still 25,000 Jews in Iran. It wasn't a flaw as much as it's part of a very old Muslim view that a non believer cannot rule over Islamic land which they believe Palestine was. As I posted previously, they only began to care about Palestine after the Jews began to return. Up until then few seemed to care at all. There were Arab riots in pre Israel Palestine over the issue of selling land to Jews - nevertheless it was done by many Arabs who couldn't care less about this land.

There was no flaw other then dealing with a people who could still be manipulated by their Imams and by corrupt despots who ruled the Middle East. What would happen to these despots if a more western type government brought modernity to the region? Do I need to describe what would happen to ruling families like the Assads in Syria once their people saw the kind of progress that the Israelis brought. The advances in science, agriculture, medicine, technology etc. Much of the problem comes from decades of tyrants trying to stop this from becoming a reality.
I've said it many times and I absolutely believe that this will get sorted out and the vision that Bush expressed regarding Iraq will not take place there, but in this new Palestinian nation. It will be full of Israeli/Palestinian partners and the progress will be in warp speed between the Israeli technology and the Palestinian access to petrodollars and finally stability. This in my opinion will spread throughout the region and we will see the end of jihadists ... Palestinians are secular people so the religion won't mean as much as it does elsewhere in the ME.

LEAD


You have said previosly that for Jewish safety, Israel must be a "Jewish State" (without ever explicitly stating what that means.) Perhaps the fact that Israel is a declaratively "Jewish State" is the problems. Would we be going on 80 years of war if Jews had just bought land and moved in without establishing a "state"? Maybe having an ethnically defined "state" is a fundamentally flawed proposition if "safety" is the ultimate goal?

This is an issue that's a work in progress. It is a Jewish state but it was never meant to be only for Jews and yet, the Jews need to keep their majority or else there is no Jewish State and just reading some of the posts here one can see why having a State for Jews is still very necessary.

It seems to me that though Jews are far safer in 2006 Israel than in 1930's germany, but far less safe than they are in 2006 America, or France, or Italy, or Belgium . . . something isn't working out here. How long are we gonna keep pretending that it can be made to work?

What you sense is in my opinion coming from a combination of things. There's millions every year that's funding a PR campaign to recast reality into something that works better for the Palestinian goals. You can see the effect of this from various posters using certain words of choice and they update as time passes. Apartheid, atrocities, starvation etc. One only needs to read the opinions and letters to the editor of the Israeli press to see the latest and a week later I'll start to see it here as well. These are specifically designed to change opinion and I say fair enough. Then there's the Bush administration with its closeness to the Evangelical community which has a great deal of feeling for Israel and the Jewish people and also a great deal of influence with the Republican Party and the current administration and then there are the political neoconservatives who happen to have many Jews within their ranks. This cocktail makes for a very potent mix and the Jew is suddenly very much on many people's minds. I'm beginning to see books that are rewrites of the old "Protocols of the Elder Zion" which was rank anti semitism but many today don't know about the book so these new books have a waiting audience that will explain the neocon or Zionist as that Jew who manipulates behind the scene, in the shadows etc etc. Its all very classic stuff but always effective it seems. All I can say is when the Israeli thing gets sorted out and it will, much of this will disappear.

It is a Jewish state but it was never meant to be only for Jews and yet, the Jews need to keep their majority or else there is no Jewish State and just reading some of the posts here one can see why having a State for Jews is still very necessary.

That's right GZ. Zionism is not exactly like apartheid, but it's based on the same conceit.

Palestinians and Jews are cousins and when they stop fighting they will build two amazing countries side by side.

You might think this is ridiculous under the current circumstances but I would disagree.

There are still lots of Jews and Palestinians who are moderate and have the best of intentions. This is according to all polling data, the majority.

In the Palestinian territory its still dangerous for moderates to emerge but rest assure they are there. Abbas is actaully doing good job representing them. His plan for a referendum is so these people can speak through the ballot box IN SECRET without some armed thug watching over.

Unfortunatley for Abbas, he had to follow Arafat and Arafat had been so corrupt that the Pals had little use for Fatah anymore and voted Abbas out, but they never bargained for Hamas. Islamism is NOT what Palestinians are all about.

We are actually closer then we've ever been to the end of this turmoil. I know it doesn't look like it, but we are. Certainly many things can go wrong and have gone wrong before, but we've never been this close. Regardless of the public rhetoric, there's much going on behind the scenes.

The Israelis and the Palestinians will do some great things together ... and they can and I think will spark a reformation within the Muslim world.

Many from both sides will try and stop this from happening but even if they succeed temporarily, they will ultimately fail.

There was a demonstration today outside the home of the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Army regarding the shell that landed on the beach in Gaza. One of the demonstrators was Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's daughter - as I said and believe, the majority of Israelis and Palestinians want to live together in peace and will.

GZ sed...

" ...as I said and believe, the majority of Israelis and Palestinians want to live together in peace and will."

Spud agrees.

Is like America to a small extent.

The vast majority from both left and right can find agreement on most issues.

Trouble is, a nation of mostly moderates is being led by extremists on both sides.

Plus the whole process is being held hostage to corporate terrorism.

* deep sigh *

Be Well.

Since you're such an expert on Judaism, JACKASS, would you mind telling the group what THE VERY MAIN concept of Judaism is, that which unites ALL JEWS?

I'll give you a clue, it's not a love of the afterlife, or fear of retribution from an angry god who offers virgins and death, etc.

You know what it is? a simple thing called, "TIKUN OLAM"-- that means, "TO HEAL THE WORLD." Jews live by that one simple principle-- to try to make the world a better place, not to make peace with god, or say prayers or kneel a lot, but to make the world a better place. And hence, Jews' believe firmly in education and going into professions where healing the world is more likely. So next time you think of a religion to pick on that lives by a set of principles that you think unworthy, try again, JACKASS, because Jews, in spite of their tiny, infantesimile numbers, have made their voices heard the world over for all of the miraculous and amazing contributions to the world.

Also, on your other ASSENINE point, there would be peace now if the Palestinian leadership accepted the peace offered by Israeli the six times they offered it in the past, on terms PAINFUL to Israel. IT is just plain ignorant of fact to say that Israel doesn't seem to want peace. Palestinian leadership has made it consistenlty clear that the only "peace" it will accept is a peace involving ALL JEWS DEAD. 100% not true for Israeli leadership. READ A DAMNED BOOK before you spout off such idiotic, hateful b.s.

RAY-- you are 100% incorrect. read a book. please. (not one by Holocaust deniers, or Yasir Arafat)

It's occurred to me recently what Judaism and Islam have in common that makes them eternal enemies: they infuse nationalism with religion. This will go on until one side is too exhausted to fight back. It could outlive us.

Yeah sure GZ. Deny deny deny. To retain the ideal of a Jewish state, the political system has to be designed to prevent non-Jewish sects from ascending to power. Don't need to read any stinkin zionist propaganda.

We should all take a minute to honor Rachel Corrie. Murdered.

IT is just plain ignorant of fact to say that Israel doesn't seem to want peace.

Reminds me of my ex-wife's philosophy. She always wanted peace. To do that, I would have had to capitulate on her terms. Who do you think you are kidding with that bullshit?

if your ex-wife is the Palestinian leadership , then that's a great comparison. seriously, read a book. I know it's crazy for someone like you to read anything that lacks pictures and pop-ups, but try it, you might learn something other than pure unadulterated hatred. It's interesting that you have a perception of your ex-wife that you can't see anything other than that reality. Limited thinking and hatred go hand in hand. You do have a lot in common with the Pal terrorists after all. That would make sense why you identify with them and not the underdog, Israel.

ZEBEDIA. I dont blame the palestinians at all. They have occupied the land since the days of the great saladin. Israel should not even exist. Jews should have returned to Europe after WW2. There can be no negotiation for the palestinian people. It is their land.

Zeb
I've read tons more of Israel propaganda then I do of the anti-Israel stuff. Dershowitz is about as objective as Olbert.

My anti-Israel stance evolved over forty years of news reading. You can't displace 50,000 or so Palestinians and justify doing it on moral grounds. Plus, Israel would not have existed if it were not for foreign meddling. Might does not make right in my book.

"corporate terrorism"

Islamic extremism is basically a response to 50+ years of international (re: mostly American ) corporate terrorism which created a decades long dictatorship in Iran, and supported and supports corrupt authoritarian ( a Republican specialty!) regimes in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt.

Both the terrorists who attack the US, and the US ( that's "US", btw!) that takes orders from the people, mostly in the GOP,
that Abe Lincoln and Dwight Eisenhower warned us about, are horribly wrong in their actions and completely culpable for all their evil deeds.

Violence is abhorant, or should be, no matter who uses it.

We all know that it is sometimes unavoidable, but the Bushite Crusader concept of an unavoidable pre-emtive war, especially one so royally mis-handled, is a little hard for even the American people to swallow for so long.

Add the "acceptable collateral damage" of innocent lives

(including babies ahorted by our taxpayer-dollar missles, but hey, those abortions and mother killings must have a special Right Wing Abortion Exception (TM), since bad guys are killed, too, 'S'OK, eh?)

and ever increasing military family members arriving home in a box.....

the American people are not likley to stand for much more of this GOP War.

Israel watches these developments closely, for they know their support wains in America at these times.

well, i can't argue with blind idiocy and biggotry. Your ideas of facts are just incorrect. If you say the world is a purple smear and I say it isn't there is nothing to debate. that stupid, "they occupied the land and it's theirs" crap is just not accurate. We've been over and over this in other formats, and I've cited history and facts over and over, and yet you haters just keep coming back ignoring facts and history, and continuing to base your cheaply veneered hatred in pseudo-facts and lies. I'm tired of it. I have no idea how to respond to it. I always listen and read the hate-b.s. and wonder why people think that anything that is inconsistent with their views is dismissable as "propaganda" but anything written by idiots with clear agendas is "truth". oh well. I guess some see all in black and white and love to hate. bad combo. very negative and counter-productive.
i'll instead continue my efforts to TIKUN HA OLAM. (heal the world) by giving time, charity and other means to make the world a better place for all Israeli, American and Palestinian children.
PEACE.

What a joke. You don't want a better world for any but Israelis and to get it you are committing an ethnic cleansing that comes close to genocide. Oh by the way, the only hater here is you.

Google Rachel Corrie if you want to know what is really happening in Palestine.

good call. I'm a "hater." congratulations. I hope I see you next week in New Orleans. That's where I'll be with other JEWS and Christians who are helping rebuild the place for folks who need it. But you're probably right. Jews just care about Israel and nothing else. (Which by the way wouldn't be terrible-- that's what caring about a country is all about), Jews that spearheaded the civil rights movement in this country and do more for Darfur and domestic issues than your fat asses will ever do other than complain and whine about the fictitious Zionist oppressors. You could care LESS about Palestinians. All you care about is HATING Israel because you are jealous of Jews and Israel. Shut up and do something productive with your lives. If I see you in New Orleans, I'll be sure to say, "shalom."

Zeb dont try to hide what you are. I dont. You'll end up getting more respect in the long run.

"Jews just care about Israel and nothing else."
Posted by zebedia 2006-06-11 12:48 AM

Hey at least you were honest there Zeb

and at least you're consistent, JACKASS, you are EXTREMELY good at taking quotes out of context. Now it is clear why you have a total misunderstanding of history.

Unlike you, I could care less about getting "respect" on some idiot-parade sound board of stupidity and hatred. I seek validation through much more productive means. (see above). I strongly urge you to do the same. You might feel better about your life if instead of devoting it to stupidity and hatred, if you spent just a tiny fraction of it trying to help those who need it.

All you care about is HATING Israel because you are jealous of Jews and Israel


what a load of crap

denial ain't just a river in Egypt. I'm not convinced by your "propaganda." your denial is pretty clear evidence that it's true.

Zeb you act like I am the only one who feels this way. 90% of Americans feel the same way. You should learn to accept when your beliefs are wrong.

Jack, are you back on the burn Jeeeews train again. Bummer dude.

No DKIA, I just want to educate Zeb

that's a huge laugh. your goals are clear-- spread hate and lies and pretend that everyone agrees with your blatant stupidity.

I don't receive "education" on the internet from 5th grade-educated people whose parents didn't love them enough. Instead I elect to read reputable historical and political accounts and make up my own mind. The conclusions are clear when one does that.

Jackass is merely a fool. Cynic is moronic and pedestrian and Ray is a lost soul spewing theories of others but presenting them as factual.

Meanwhile those pesky things called facts are beginning to emerge in Gaza. For some strange reason, TV cameras just happened to have been on the scene when this mystery shell hit and killed 7 while wounding 40. Lo and behold there doesn't seem to be any crater on the beach. Has anyone ever heard of a shell hitting without making any crater?

I don't expect any of you ignoramouses except perhaps Jackass to stick around when the truth about this comes out which will be that one of your favorite militant groups either did this on purpose - killing their own women and children is no big deal for these people which you all should know already - or it was a work related accident of some Palestinian bomb maker who's project blew up in his face. The only other theory is it was a similar accident as had happened over there when they were staging some event and used Qassam rockets as a prop and they ignited.

But why was a TV camera on the scene as the mystery Israeli shell hit?

LOLOLOLOL .... you all deserve to be blown to bits by your terrorits friends who you seem to trust more then your own countryman.

I'd call you all pethetic apologists but despite all the things you should have learned over the past few years with our troops in Iraq, you still believe these people over your own ... you are all incredibly naive.

Cynic is moronic and pedestrian and Ray is a lost soul spewing theories of others but presenting them as factual.

Yeah sure GZ. The Jewish zionists think they owned the land in perpetuity, so they nationalized it in their image with the help of their Christian counterparts. You've ignored the important facts since I first argued with you on this subject.

Meanwhile the US is going broke defending this rogue state. You have no idea of the economic hell that awaits the future of this country. Not to mention our ME policy has resulted in turning this country into a police state.

You haven't proved me wrong on this issue. All you do is skirt the issue.

LOLOLOLOL .... you all deserve to be blown to bits by your terrorits friends who you seem to trust more then your own countryman.
Posted by GZlives at 2006-06-11 10:40 AM |



This is about Israel. When did the Israelis become our countrymen? Israel is a traitorous state. They should be part of the axis of evil as far as I am concerned.

If the Palestinians believe they have a right to the land, let them take it back. And if the Israelis disagree, let them fight it out.

I personally don't think the Israelis are going anywhere, and find it amusing that the Palestinians give such a damn about "pre-1948 borders"--as if borders aren't completely arbitrary in the first place--in almost every case, they are created, and settled, by conflict. National lines in Europe have been drawn and re-drawn dozens of times in the last few centures, and yet you don't see the Latvians blowing up Poles about something that happened 100 years ago. Maybe when the Palestinians decide to concentrate on building their businesses and farms, instead of strapping bombs on their kids and pointing them toward the Jewish bus stops--life will come to some state of normalcy. Until then, the Palestinians are just a futile, pathetic people. If you gave them Switzerland to run, the place would be completely unlivable by Christmastime. Should they manage to throw the Jews into the sea, why should we expect a Palestine run by Abbas and their goons to be any better than what they've got now?