More from article:

The alleged "shortage" of US engineering graduates is inconsistent with reports from Duke University that 30 to 40 percent of students in its master's of engineering management program accept jobs outside the profession. About one-third of engineering graduates from MIT go into careers outside their field. Job outsourcing and work visas for foreign engineers are reducing career opportunities for American engineering graduates and, also, reducing salary scales.

American engineering is also under pressure because corporations have moved manufacturing offshore. Design, research and development are now following manufacturing offshore. A country that doesn't make things doesn't need engineers and designers. Corporations that have moved manufacturing offshore fund R&D in the countries where their plants have been relocated.

"Once Manufacturing goes the technology support will go."

I left manufacturing support in '97.
They sold my mass spectrometer for a song.
The factories have been closed for years and they can't give them away.

Fortunately there is AMD.

America is going to hell in a handbasket and Bush the treasonous corporatist is leading the parade. Why would any college kid want to major in engineering or the computer sciences when they know as soon as they graduate the only jobs available will be in India?

WHY ISN'T THIS A TOP SUBJECT FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL WANNABES? I haven't heard Hillary, or Kerry, or Newt, or Frist, or Hagel, or any of them talk about getting rid of offshoring and stopping the tax breaks for companies that continue to do so.

IBM just announced it will be sending THOUSANDS MORE U.S. jobs overseas. We have lost 3,000,000 jobs since Bush took office. The Communists or bin Ladin could not have personally hired a better guy to destroy our country than if they had personally handpicked Bush for the job. Bush LIES about economic figures, he LIES about our economy, his own economic advisers wanted to count "hamburger makers" as "manufacturing"!

IMPEACH WHILE WE STILL HAVE A COUNTRY LEFT.

I remember a debate a while back where someone pointed out that manufacturing output in this country is still very high. I've been in manufacturing since the 60s when I first learned how to design machines. With solid state technology, machines have gotten terribly fast. You may not realize this, but there are many products sold throughout the world that come from only one or two factories. With CAD, I can make drawings ten time faster then with a ruler and straight edge. My point is that the drop in demand for engineers is not all about outsourcing. I believe that a major part of it is about our own efficieny.

I hate to tell you this Chris. The problem began long before Bush and will continue long after he leaves. Our system of government has gotten so massive and corrupt, that it acts like a deadweight for the country at large.

H-1B engineering labor can be had for a fraction (2/3) the cost of domestic American help.

H-1B help can speak to the crew at the design center in India as if they were old neighbors, because they were.

H-1B help is a constant reminder to the remaining American help that Americans can be easily replaced. This tends to keep the wage demands of American engineers more aligned with corporate competitiveness needs.

H-1B help tends to do as they're told where Americans can be more independent thinkers. And one man's "independent thinker" is another manager's just a bit too "uppity".

H-1B help arrives and remains in the USA under the sponsorship of the employer. Kind of like an indentured servant was, when that kind of thing was legal. But it's not anymore, so this must be different.

Cost/benefit is the bottom line in all human endeavors. We have so much to be thankful to "economists" for.

CAD is so eighties. Today it's CATIA. Pro/E. Maybe even SolidWorks.

Biscuit

Not exactly. For most applications, CATIA, Pro/E and Solidworks are overkill. Each has its place.

Cost/benefit is the bottom line in all human endeavors.

Well, the corporatists and globalists now in power and going totally amok under Bush are going to "cost/benefit" our country straight to the bottom.

H1-B isn't really so different than scabs breaking a strike. They are willing to work longer hours for lower wages. Due to their visa status, they are easily intimidated by employers. This is just another form of outsourcing.

CATIA over-kill I can understand but SolidWorks is over-kill? How simple would your work have to get for SW to be over-kill?

Pro/E rules.

"Oldcaduser" is almost old enough to have used ... egads, pencil and paper.

Ray,

Sorry but your mostly wrong.

Total hours worked in the private sector declined in May.
Manufacturing hours worked are 6.6 percent less than when the recovery began four and one-half years ago.

Yep, I was on the "board" for 11 years before we purchased out first CAD system in 1977.

OCU

More evidence that the United States of America is plunging headfirst into Third World Status...

Greedy Republican Manufacturers and Industrialists are willing to sell their anal orifices and defecate through their oral orifices...

All for a quick buck...

Why not, they can jump on their 200 million dollar yachts and head for Capri, or they villas and mansions world wide...

There is no American Pride anymore...

Pat Buchanan, not one of my favorites, was on IMUS this morning...

And he says this is something that has become inbred in the Republican Party...

Rights of Corporations...It's all about the rights of corporations...to do what they want , to close their plants, and move them overseas, no matter what the effect on the United States...

Corporations don't care about Americans...They don't care about the country....

They care about the bottom line...It's just too easy for them to become multi-national...and the money is over there now...

WHY ISN'T THIS A TOP SUBJECT FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL WANNABES? I haven't heard Hillary, or Kerry, or Newt, or Frist, or Hagel, or any of them talk about getting rid of offshoring and stopping the tax breaks for companies that continue to do so.


Posted by CalifChris at 2006-06-06 09:39 PM | Reply

Why?

Because the treasonist corporations that give them $$$$$ to become the ruling class in america wish to outsource every single job they can as quietly as possible.

These corporations do not have the long term interests of America at heart, only the quick buck to be made to justify their multi multi million dollar paychecks.

Sad at best. Treason at worst.

Awe Big Deal(TM)! America doesn't need engineers; all we need is more salesmen/preachers!

When will you liberal simpletons learn?

So called American Corporations are heavily invested by overseas monies. They have bought us out and are bringing their companies home. Let's face it, we've sold out.

"""WHY ISN'T THIS A TOP SUBJECT FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL WANNABES? I haven't heard Hillary, or Kerry, or Newt, or Frist, or Hagel, or any of them talk about getting rid of offshoring and stopping the tax breaks for companies that continue to do so."""

John Kerry talked about it alot during his campaign. He talked about changing the tax system to penalize corporations that oursource jobs.

"John Kerry talked about it alot during his campaign. He talked about changing the tax system to penalize corporations that oursource jobs."

Which was eagerly denounced by the Repub spin committee into saying "Dems want to increase taxes on the middle class".

But hey, Repubs investigated record profits reported by all Oil companies, and there was no profiteering found! Whew, what a relief! Tax their windfall profits?!?!? Heck we can't do that, it will only hurt the middle class (huh?). STILL no significant movement towards alternative energy sources.... cause that would hurt the Oil companies!! We need to drill in the ANWR.... cause we all know that that would IMMEDIATELY relieve gas prices and provide a supply, and not 10 years down the road when that oil actually made it onto the market!!

When in 20 years there is no middle class, 95% of the U.S. will be in the service sector, and 5% will be living high on corporate greed, I wish I could say that I will take pleasure in telling you "I told you so".

But unfortunately, I don't think I am going to be in that 5%, and living in S. Florida, no one would understand me anyways, since I don't speak Spanish.

Bush may not have started all this outsourcing and corporate profiteering, but he sure isn't doing jack to stop it.

Corporate lobbyists have purchased fraudulent studies from economists that claim offshoring results in more US employment rather than less. The same lobbyists have spread disinformation that the US does not graduate enough engineers and that they must import foreigners on work visas.

Golden oldie weasel words:

"According to a nationwide survey more doctors smoke Camels than any other cigarette."

Brand new weasel words:

"Carbon dioxide is essential to life."

TV Commercial from the Competitive Enterprise Institute - a front group funded by ExxonMobil and other big oil companies.

More evidence that the United States of America is plunging headfirst into Third World Status...

Greedy Republican Manufacturers and Industrialists are willing to sell their anal orifices and defecate through their oral orifices...

All for a quick buck...

Why not, they can jump on their 200 million dollar yachts and head for Capri, or they villas and mansions world wide...

There is no American Pride anymore...

Posted by Scarey_e at 2006-06-07 06:06 AM | Reply

I agree that we are heading into 3rd world "usetabe #1" status but disagree this is solely a republican issue. This process is the culmination of 20 years of bilateral rape by both dems and repubs. You want change, change the 2 party system. It wont happen though as we are well entrenched and destined for decline..just ask the ghosts of ancient rome.

I just love how the Right will say that if we refuse to accept the Patriot Act, domestic spying, warrantless searches and this endless Total War, that we hate America and love the terrorists.

But if IBM and the others refuse to accept a lower profit margin to keep jobs in America, why don't they hate America?

Why are the corporations excused because they need to make piles of money, but we aren't excused for needing our freedoms?

Why?

Because the treasonist corporations that give them $$$$$ to become the ruling class in america wish to outsource every single job they can as quietly as possible.

These corporations do not have the long term interests of America at heart, only the quick buck to be made to justify their multi multi million dollar paychecks.

Sad at best. Treason at worst.

Posted by JimmyWallback at 2006-06-07 08:26 AM

Absolutely!!! The Dems are as beholden to corporations as are the Repubs!
We need to state that money doesn't equal free speech, and equal free air time and a finite of money is available for an election. This would take so much money, and corruption out of the government. This should be a high priority in the US, along with immigration and energy dependency.

But the politicians seem more than happy to go about their stupid, divisive issues, to keep our eyes off the ball. We really are a bunch of morons if we let them continue to get away with it.

That's ok. Who needs science and math? America can survive on faith alone.

Go Republitards!
"Praying got us where we are today!"

In other news, Dilbert is now being printed in Hindi.

I used to think Pat Buchanan was some kind of right-wing nut.

He sounds more and more main-stream every day. I don't know if that's good news or bad.

Well I am currently looking for a Scientist with a PhD in Machine Learning with an undergradute degree in Chemistry to develop algorthims using Matlab. Care to guess what percentage of the resumes I look at that are from people born in America?

About 1%.

This isn't a case of getting someone cheaper, it is a case of getting someone who is qualified.

Many don't give me that shit. I got my undergrad in Computer Science was moving on to a masters when I took some time off to have a family. My best friend got his undergrad in chem e. then got his masters in chem.

I chose not to go back and get my masters when he was working as a bartender. If no one will hire you at enough to pay off your loans why bother with continuing education? He did finaly get a job using his skills, I still make more selling fireplaces and have a whole heck of alot less loans to pay off.

Funny enough most of the foreign students I hung out with in college were not even paying as much as me thanks to grants, etc. If we continue to make college more expensive for Americans than imigrants how do we hope to compete?

Maybe just maybe afordable education would allow Americans to compete with immigrants? I mean when you graduate with 50k + in debt you kind of have to make a bit more than the guy who got the discount education and has no loans to pay off.

My friend with 50k + in loans had to make 50k a year just to live off and no one is willing to pay an inexperianced guy that kind of money no matter what the education.

The left can't complain about unemployment anymore , who knew all during pappy Bush's term that the beaners were taking over American jobs .The left was scaring people with the "no Jojs" gig , the old people with the "Neos are going to stop socialist suckurity " . And now we hear about GW's scare tactics of " terrorists under every bed , in every closet " . What if he be right ? So , when jobs start getting tight , America will rise up and do the jobs they did'nt want to do , yeah right !There is'nt too much out there that you leftys can really use for scare and smear tactics , Bush disarmed you . He was alot smarter than you progressives , who progressively make things worse .

Don't give you what? You didn't get your degree. You are going to blame that on a guy in Pune who did? Well a lot of people in India and China aren't dropping out to tend bar, they are completing their education.

I agree, the cost for an American education is expensive. If you were from India, the government would have paid for your Doctorate.

But you did help prove my point. A guy from India or China who gets a PhD degree is more qualified then an MS drop out turned bartender. The job pays 120k per year, and my client doesn't care what country they are from, they just want someone with the proper qualifications.

Don't make it a bigger issue than it realy is. We live in a global society, thus we are competing in a global job market. What is so hard to understand about that?

Ugh, Rightnut be'um smart. He smarterest Republitard in cuntry. Ugh.

Many don't read well? My freind did finish his degree just dind't go for a doctorate, not sure if he ever plans on it or not.

As far as me I'm not competing for those jobs and I'm not bitching that I'm not getting them I know my limitations and I'm limited by not having a masters or doctorate. Not that it's much of a bother to me yet we'll see when people quit building houses but I figure thats a safe gig for a good long time.

My freind isn't one to bitch either but if ever there was a guy with a right to bitch it would be him.

You sit there and smugly blame him for failing to get his doctorate and then admit that he's not playing on a leval playing field. Your client meanwhile is glad to let the government pay to educate foreginers to take US jobs.

Don't make it a bigger issue than it realy is. We live in a global society, thus we are competing in a global job market. What is so hard to understand about that?

Many that is exactly the point. We are competing in a global market and yet our government is doing everything possible to tilt the field to the advantage of others.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame you or your client your just taking advantage of the situation that was presented to you.

However if America wants to continue to be the (IMHO) greatest country on earth we need to make sure we take care of ourselves.

No, I do not blame him, I understand. Getting a graduate degree in America is very difficult for many Americans for the reasons that you listed. The point that I am trying to make, is that these employers are not seeking bargins by hiring applicants on H1B visas. There is a shortage of highly talented individuals and the reason that they seek non-Americans is because they cannot find any qualified Americans.

My office performs thousands of searches each year, and not one client has ever said, they would rather hire someone here on a visa. Their first choice, if they have one, is to hire an American citizen. If they absolutely have to, they will sponsor an H1.

And hell, I don't have a degree, but I make more than the people that I place. Now THAT'S the American way baby!

"but I make more than the people that I place"

Well that explains your position. How do you like selling out your fellow Americans?

"We live in a global society, thus we are competing in a global job market. What is so hard to understand about that?"

It's only a global job market because of government policies designed to create a global job market. Treaties such as NAFTA, CAFTA, etc., and the world economic organizations such as the WTO, IMF, and World Bank were set up for that reason. The idea that it is just a force of nature like gravity is pure fiction.

Bill he's not selling out his fellow Americans our government is doing that. Paying for future temp workers educations is one big way. He is just existing in a world he did not create. One of our major supliers just off-shored their production but we didn't switch are we selling out Americans? What if you knew that they were the LAST american manufacturer of the product? We didn't off-shore the production we would rather use American products but if no one makes them here what can we do. He has the same problem.

((Well that explains your position. How do you like selling out your fellow Americans?))

I place a majority of Americans, so where you came up with that statement, I'm not sure. I'll assume that you're drunk.

Hey I am 100% against diversity hiring Bill. If you want your work force to be diversified, hire the best person for the job. You'll have a very colorful organization.

I pay no attention to where you are from, I am interested in how good you are at what you do.

And speaking of drunk, I'm coming to join you.

later....

Well you said you profited from outsourcing. Sure, you didn't create the global job market, but you sure seem to be enjoying and profiting from it. I don't know why you would brag about how much money you make when you're a cog in the wheel that is causing the loss of jobs for Americans.

Tao,
I agree.

Only through TV can one aspire to be President and so the Republicrates continue to fawn Corporate America for the money to use the airwaves which were originally a public property. Isn't it interesting that Conservative Pundits like Paul Craig Roberts and Lou Dobbs are the only one's sounding the alarms. The Democrates are mute while the Republicans blow smoke up our ass.

Crassus
It is just plain ignorance to suggest the manufacturing has upgraded so drastically that they are producing more with less people and less hours worked.

Ignorance my foot. I designed machines for most of my career, over 40 years. People like me are victims of their own success. The criteria to look at is manufacturing output, not labor hours.

The idea that it is just a force of nature like gravity is pure fiction.

6 billion people acting in their own self interests is as real as it gets. China and India alone are over 2 billion strong. That's a force you can't stop Reilly.

What's missing in your calculations is the federal government's need to have a source to buy it's debt. That's one reason among others for globalization. It's another question when our trading partners stop taking our worthless script.

Actually, Ray, it's not 6 billion people acting in their own interest. It's multinational corporations acting in their own interest against the interests of most Americans, and engineers in particular. Globalization was put into place by policy.

Reilly

I don't think it has sunk in that the US government is screwing its trading partners. You belittle the federal government's need to have foreign nations buy our debt - they send us goods and we send them script that is steadily eroding in purchasing power. By this means we have been using other nations to finance ours. This is not a stable situation.

Ray
I agree with most of that. But the globalization policy was put into place long before we had a debt problem. And now we have record trade deficits from that policy and no end in sight.

Reilly
The record trade deficit has to do with what I described above. A trade deficit reduction would be a sign that other countries are buying less of our debt. That would translate to higher inflation domestically. If you check the statistics during the depression years, I think you will find that we had a trade surplus during those years.

As I recall those early years of globalization, multi-nationals, as they were called then, were praised for bring revenue back home.

I maintain that is not globalization per se that is causing our unemployment problems; it's our position as the world's supplier of reserve currency. We're the world's biggest exporter of currency. That's the driving force that allows us to buy foreign goods on the cheap.

"That's the driving force that allows us to buy foreign goods on the cheap."

Well cheap labor is probably more important in the costs of foreign goods. We are buying foreign goods not on the cheap, but at a high price, when you factor in the externalities of destroying American jobs, downsizing the engineering profession, etc.

We are going to have to disagree on this one. I maintain that the US has been using other nations to finance ours. If you think things are bad now, wait until they start to pull back from financing us. There are early signs of it now.

If your logic had any merit, we would benefit by reduced trade. If we reduce trade, the other countries would not have the dollars to buy our debt. I don't think you have thought this through. Who is going to by our debt?

Well, that's a problem, Ray. We've gotten ourselves dependent on foreign financing by following these neoliberal globalization policies, just as we've become dependent on foreign oil due to an unreasonable faith in free trade and free markets. I don't have any answers for you.

BTW, I thought Horace and I had a truce. I was willing to put our past battles behind, but that little dipshit likes to brag he beat me in a debate about the Bible. There was only one occasion, not two. Several times, I tried to taunt him to renew the debate and he ignored me. The gloves are off. What a jerk.

Ah my friend, you are fixated on unfree markets. Alas, it's all those social welfare-warfare programs that we've been financing with foreign money.

I'm out for the night. The answer I have for you is to buy all the silver you can afford while it is still cheap. Our economy is going to get ugly in probably the next year or two.

Absolutely correct, Ray. Horace may be the biggest jerk on this blog, perhaps, of all time.

Ray sometimes it is easier to admit defeat and just move on. Horace is a very good debater. There is no shame in losing to him

Bullshit Jackass. Horace avoids me on Bible discussions. Tell him I challenge him to continue our first debate on Paul and see what kind of reaction you get.

Ray,

I maintain that is not globalization per se that is causing our unemployment problems; it's our position as the world's supplier of reserve currency.

It is both the currency and the off loading of manufacturing.

Ever wonder why the 3rd world countries are not getting higher wages for making our products and they are not reducing their debt. They owe us so much that they are unable to pay off their debt and the money they get is in our Currency so the only place they can exchange/spend is in our country. Well, we don't make anything anymore so they instead by our treasury.

China is the scary picture though, they have our debt, us our dollars to buy their oil on the cheap. Costing us more. We are not being a very smart business country right now.

Fed. Chairman announced today that energy prices is slowing the economy way down in a relaxed style warning. Inflation is going up fast.

Horace is a very good debater.

Note from the retarded have no balance in thought.

Crassus

I was talking about trade surpluses during the 30s. Currently, our trade deficit has to continue to worsen to keep our economy afloat. That's the power of compound interest. When the deficit decreases, so will our economy. You probably don't believe me, so we'll have to watch and see.

Unfortunately all the world's establishment economists subscribe to debt spending and fiat currency. Throughout all of economic history, that philosophy has always ended in disaster. The world economy is following the path of the Weimer Republic.

Good night.

Yep, and our trade deficit is a direct result of those "cheap" foreign goods, which turn out to be not so cheap afterall.

Crassus trying to bait me. No thanks. I only debate in unmoderated threads

Ray,

When the deficit decreases, so will our economy.

Not true, if we begin to be manufacturers, we export to the boom of employment, hirer wages increasing our spendable income bring up the economy.

We are going into reverse because of the decreasing wages, less spendable money and deficit and debt.

During WWII the city of Pittsburgh produced more steel than Germany and Japan combined. Our elites decided that steel wasn't important. Today american steel is dead. Government mouth pieces cried, "American steel deserved it, they wouldn't invest in modernization". Of course they did not tell you, that American steel workers had to pay higher taxes, so that they could pay for new plants in German and Japan paid for by American tax payers. Steel plants in Germay and Japan were new dating to the end of WWII. American plants were 100 years old. No tax money for them! In the '70s & '80s the same thing happened to American electronics. And the government mouth pieces say, "We don't need electronics". Is there any industries we do need?

Gee....then I guess we better kick out all the Mexican immigrants in order to free up burgerflippin' jobs for the college graduates.

Maybe the MBA's can step into the shift supervisor positions at MickyD.

Well I guess I am one of the best to give an opinion on this issue. I graduated in 1971 from UWM with a masters in electical engineering, but with the downturn could not find a job in computers or electrical engineering--even after being in a co-op program with Lockheed. So I went into fire protection engineering for 7 years before going into the teaching of engineering. What was really a rough ordeal was passing the tests to become a registered professional engineer in the State of Wisconsin. After 12 years, putting up with the deaths of my parents, and other family deaths; they let me go at the school I was teaching at. Since then, I've not been able to find any decent work and have been employed for the last 5 years at an office supply store for about $10 per hour. I guess now I'm too old, being close to 60. Earlier, I went back to school to get an MBA, got a degree in nuclear engineering technology, and became a microsoft certified systems engineer; but always there was no employment at the end of the rainbow. My advice to all people contemplating engineering, is to not go into electrical engineering because it is too time consuming and specific. Become a radiologist, cardiologist, doctor, lawyer, or something else. But don't end up like me, single, broke, with no hope of a good future in the USA.

Ref: Schopenhauer -

I'd tell you to keep the faith, but given your experiences that sentiment falls short.

Our country's ability to protect and nurture all facets of the engineering professions, is paramount to our well being....they are the enablers of a visionary, forward moving civilization....the bedrock of empowerment.

I hope something good comes your way to make up for your setbacks.