Well Nuts, keep your "progressives" out of the pokey and out of the abortionsits office and you can even the playing field.

Not likely.


ANOTHER of the left's causing it then whining about it tour.

Thanks Mr. Peanut...they called it

Of course he did loose the popular vote by over in Million in 2000, and was annointed President by the Scotus, who broke all of their own states'right precedents to do it...then Bush and Rove conjured up a war to assure his 2004 victory...

Take a good hard look at our "success" in Iraq, and hope that when this sicko invades Iran, we don't ignite the entire Middle East...

Well Scared-E


You only whined about four or five excuses in that one post.

You can do MUCH better than that.


Abortion and jail are two of the real reasons Dems are not gittin r dun. And so the left's worship of abortion will continue to deplete their future resources despite the MSM and liberal educators trying to keep the faithful and add to the ranks.

And I want to end abortions. Go figure.

Repuglicans for fetuses
Once they are born Screw 'em

" All you need is a PC Card, a little know-how, and a few minutes alone with the machine to change how it counts votes."

And we all know that republicans are the only people with PC cards and tech savvy.

Joe, Joe, Joe...... you'll never pass the bar that way.

Voting Machine Controversy
by Julie Carr Smyth

COLUMBUS - The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

The Aug. 14 letter from Walden O'Dell, chief executive of Diebold Inc. - who has become active in the re-election effort of President Bush - prompted Democrats this week to question the propriety of allowing O'Dell's company to calculate votes in the 2004 presidential election.

O'Dell attended a strategy pow-wow with wealthy Bush benefactors - known as Rangers and Pioneers - at the president's Crawford, Texas, ranch earlier this month. The next week, he penned invitations to a $1,000-a-plate fund-raiser to benefit the Ohio Republican Party's federal campaign fund - partially benefiting Bush - at his mansion in the Columbus suburb of Upper Arlington.

The letter went out the day before Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, also a Republican, was set to qualify Diebold as one of three firms eligible to sell upgraded electronic voting machines to Ohio counties in time for the 2004 election.

Blackwell's announcement is still in limbo because of a court challenge over the fairness of the selection process by a disqualified bidder, Sequoia Voting Systems.

In his invitation letter, O'Dell asked guests to consider donating or raising up to $10,000 each for the federal account that the state GOP will use to help Bush and other federal candidates - money that legislative Democratic leaders charged could come back to benefit Blackwell.

They urged Blackwell to remove Diebold from the field of voting-machine companies eligible to sell to Ohio counties.

This is the second such request in as many months. State Sen. Jeff Jacobson, a Dayton-area Republican, asked Blackwell in July to disqualify Diebold after security concerns arose over its equipment.

"Ordinary Ohioans may infer that Blackwell's office is looking past Diebold's security issues because its CEO is seeking $10,000 donations for Blackwell's party - donations that could be made with statewide elected officials right there in the same room," said Senate Democratic Leader Greg DiDonato."

Excerpt

It would seen, at least, that Repubes have the inside track, eh?

Were it up to me, we wouldn't use voting machines at all. The only reason Diebold makes them is because of the Democratic Party's blunders in Palm Beach County. If those guys could read a simple ballot which had been used for decades, Diebold would be back to making staplers and adding machines.

There is class warfare in this country and throughout the world. Bush denies this. Class warfare has devastated and snuffed lives South of us and other parts of the world. The outcome need not be lower standards of living for workers who can vote. But, in the United States this is a frequent result of bullshit TV programming, gerrymandering and vote count fraud. So while Cheney blasts Putin he courts demonic dictators who control oil. Republicans and their fearless leader, Bush (aka Alfred E. Neuman) pretend to love Democracy. Any peasant in Mexico, Russia or Bangledesh can see through their bullshit, but not 33% of America. Go figure?

Old News, Same Conspiricy!!! The left lost, worry about 2008. And make sure to do your civic duty and report any proof to yall's bullshit to the FBI, OK, Pinnheads!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There should not be one single voting machine which does not have a paper trail. End of story.

Paper ballots: 100% hacker-proof.

Damn traitors wanting fair elections!

Where will it end?

Next thing you know, they'll be wanting to stop industries from buying their own politicians!!

They'll let gay people who have lived together for decades have the same legal rights as married people!

We must stop these bastards NOW before they take away our guns and kill our babies!!!!

Hang 'em! It'll teach 'em a lesson.

Although the conservatives predictably leap to dismiss all this, think a moment.

It is generally conceded, including by many Democrats, that the 1960 election - one of the closest in US history - was probably won for John F. Kennedy through massive manipulation of the electoral system by the Daley political machine in Chicago. Aside from that, we have numerous examples through history, involving both parties, where local and state elections were affected by fraud. Generally, of course, it is the party with the means to do so that carries out the skulduggery.

Fast forward to 2006. By any reasonable standard, the US system of electing national leaders is a disgrace. We are the richest country in the world, so you would expect top of the line equipment and attention to a process that is the foundation of confidence in our democracy. Yet, in election after election, we have thousands of reports of broken machines, mistakenly purged names, locked polling places, etc. As was mentioned in the article, part of the problem is we have no national standards -we have 13,000 separate elections run by petty officials, many of them elected or political appointees.

I don't know if Ohio was stolen for Bush, but it would be a mistake to simply dismiss or laugh off the evidence. If it happened for Kennedy in 1960, there is no reason to suppose mankind has advanced in 44 years to the point where it could not happen again.

Turn about will be fair play, I suppose. If the 2008 election goes by a hair to the Democrat candidate, who happens to win by a few votes in a state where Democrat officials control the balloting process, then the Internet blogs will be full of right wing partisans howling about the end of America as we know it.

I do know this. After cresting with the re-election of Reagan in 1984 in a crushing landslide, the conservative tide is now in full ebb. The 2000 and 2004 elections were razor-close and now it is clear to most Americans that even with control of all branches of government, the current right wing incarnation of the Republican Party is unable to govern with wisdom, competence or foresight, is unable to ascertain or respond to the real issues Americans care about.

Whether the Democrats can step up remains to be seen. I think they will.

"the real reasons Dems are not gittin r dun"

People who quote Larry the Cable Guy are assholes.

I knew this in November, 2004 so why is it just coming out now? The massive voter fraud in Ohio was unreal. People would press a button 2 or 3 times for Kerry and Bush's name would show up every time. It was so rigged it was a joke.

Well, Nicey, try as you might to keep your Republi-Cons out of the pokey, they're dropping like flies.

From the article: "Nearly half of the 6 million American voters living abroad(3) never received their ballots -- or received them too late to vote(4) --"

How can this be the fault of Republicans. Did some "evil" conservative ghost force these 6 million to fail to send a change-of-address card on moving, or know which were Democrat requests for absentee ballots? Robert the Junior is a bit around the bend, eh?

The article, again: ". . . after the Pentagon unaccountably shut down a state-of-the-art Web site used to file overseas registrations. . ."

Registrations? Is that the same as absentee ballots for those who are registered, and whom this article identifies as 6 million people? How does the Pentagon having a down site a Republican theft of the 2004 election?

Robert is around the bend, for sure!

Besides, how many servicemen would have voted for the known traitor, Kerry? Robert strains credulity in anyone with half a mind, or a smidgen of objectivity!

. . . but the baaing sheep (see comments, above) eat this sheis up like it was clover!

I knew this in November, 2004 so why is it just coming out now? The massive voter fraud in Ohio was unreal. People would press a button 2 or 3 times for Kerry and Bush's name would show up every time. It was so rigged it was a joke.

Posted by CalifChris at 2006-06-02 03:44 AM | Reply





Just for that lunacy Chris, may a busload of illegals use your yard for the latrine.;0)

And then ask you for asylum in your basement.

Enjoy Huevos Rancheros!


How you say Tin Foil Cap in Espanol?

"the real reasons Dems are not gittin r dun"

People who quote Larry the Cable Guy are......

Posted by tenDfan at 2006-06-02 01:52 AM | Reply






Just trying to appeal to the Dem voter base. At least this demo can punch a hole correctly on a butterfly ballot.

Provided they get out of prison in time and the free cigs are a flowin.

Nicey are you on here 24/7?? no rest for the wicked

"How you say Tin Foil Cap in Espanol?"

?Sombrero de hoja lata?

Just say, "Grifo."

How many times can one say this garbage with a straight face? Oh yeah politians and drudgers, guess they can say this forever!

Dumb F's can't read/understand the ballot designed by their OWN party...disenfranchised!

Dumb F's can't register to vote on the day of the election...disenfranchised!

Dumb F's have to use the state/local voting syste....disenfranchised!

Dumb F's can't vote where they want....disenfranchised!

Dumb F's can't trust their own party's endorsed voting machines...disenfranchised!

Dumb F's can't read english...disenfranchised!

Dumb F's can't get over that they LOST....disenfranchised!

dave....your last post of 7:06 is a about as much rebuttal as the left can stand. you may have to back off the truth stuff. I can feel some of them getting woosy as I type this now.
and all I can add is........hee hee.....well maybe.....ha ha
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

when there is absolutely NOTHING else they always go for the didnt play fair line.......so typical.......

and the thing about this guy is really wild....this guy that our liberal bros are so in love with on this issue.......
why cant he just sit back and count his money from that kennedy trust fund......lets see....isnt that the one that got its start from his old man's old man......hhhhmmmmmm joe kennedy sr....oh yeah theres a beacon of virtue for you.........and you dont suppose he learned all about voting fraud from his grandpop do you?

Those who called others traitors for not supporting a president who was never elected will continue to be dishonest with themselves. In their distorted view of America we are actually better off because the Republicans stole the election and as long as they never admit it, it will just be forgotten. If a Democrat ever succeeds in beating the crooked system I hope that the investigations begin and all those involved in the corruption of our election system go to jail and I know that this group will definitely include George W. Bush. Americans should be out in the street right now demanding a thorough investigation. Why do REpublicans want to be remembered as the party that destroyed democracy in the United States??? Are they so arrogant that they really believe everyone will just forgive them??? If this scandal should continue to develop it will destroy the Republican party and will make average Republicans like BL above look like fools.

Joe Kennedy and Prescott Bush, both Third Reich fans. So let's not have a pot-and-kettle fight here.

Meanwhile, I'd like to see Tadowe go through each of RFK Jr.'s footnotes and thoroughly debunk them. Tad, you're not the only one who will want to do that; when you publish a cover article in a national publication, it will get picked apart by the opposition as much as is possible. Whatever is left will be discredited by same.

However, discrediting does not change essential truth, and educated people know this. Voting fraud is so glaringly obvious today, and fair voting so essential to the integrity of America, but Republicans continue on in mass denial of even the basic evidence.

Oh, and the woman who designed the Florida butterfly ballot? Did you know she was a Republican, then became a Democrat to design the ballot, then switched back to Republican? Have you ever seen the ballot? It was clearly designed to make it very difficult to select the candidate of your choice. So a bunch of Jews voted for Pat Buchanan? I think not. More dirty tricks--read the RFK Jr. article and the footnotes, and tell me there isn't enough smoke here for the Great Chicago Fire.

I really don't like dirty voting tricks in an alleged democracy. Dem, Repub, it doesn't matter. There's no substitute for FAIR. Not in America.

I'd like to see Jimi Left go through each of RFK Jr.'s footnotes and prove that they have any merit.

Jimi, reality is calling. You will never accept the results of an election unless your side wins.

It is obvious that righties care nothing about democracy or fairness. Their man won, how he did it matters not at all to them. If they had an ounce of integrity they would want the record cleared, they would need to know that their president did in fact win the election. Their attitude towards RFKjr.'s accusations is "well we won and we don't care how."
Makes me truely wonder if they have any more integrity in their personal lives than they do in regards to politics. Something tells me that if you are ok with a corrupt election then you are probably ok with other forms of corruption too. Makes me not want to do business with Republicans. I just don't trust them.

If crimes are being commmitted, then I'm all for stopping it. Prove it and let's stop it.

If it's unethical - too bad. If it ain't illegal, just unethical, then it's legal and both parties do it. What's so sad is we can only say both - there aren't enough political parties to choose from.

In football, we were winning by 2 points. We kept saying the referees were cheating allowing the other team a chance to beat us. Finally, with more penalties against our team, the other team scored a field goal and they won.

Later, the coach listened to our complaints. He said, "Look, if you guys were winning by 10 points, 3 points wouldn't have made a different, nor 7. The point is, win by a large margin and it makes it really hard for someone to beat you.

With that said, the margins of victory for the Presidency have been really close for quite a while. If you want to prevent one lousy state or another from stealing your dreams, win by a really large margin and take more states.

PETROUS
It ain't a football game. The president has taken us to war. Thousands are dead. Billions are now owed because of the decisions of this one man. And now, the nation is realizing he was probably not even ever elected. We are realizing that America isn't a democracy. And you make ridiculous comparisons to football. I think your attitude is a big part of what is wrong with this country. Citizens should be in the streets demanding a real thorough investigation and the arrest of those responsible for any crimes....just like we applauded the citizens of other nations for doing.
With the apathy apparent about stolen elections maybe Americans deserve to have an appointed dictator, apparently they just don't care.

When all you have are excuses and conspiracies you have nothing. You just have to wonder when you limp wrists are going to take responsibility for your ass kickings, failures, lack of message, lack of candidates, and lunatic fringe.

You people have to realize that the Danni's, Scarey E's, Crassus/Moneywar, Coco's, etc are the face of your fruitloop party, and they are an absolute fringe minority. That is why you lose elections. Perhaps when you guys run somebody with a message, a personality, and a backbone there might be a need to rig an election, but until then you will continue to lose. You're used to it though.

"If it's unethical - too bad. If it ain't illegal, just unethical, then it's legal and both parties do it"

YEAH! Gods law remember!

And God says being a lying cheating dirt bag is okiedokie.

"How you say Tin Foil Cap in Espanol?"

?Sombrero de hoja lata?

Just say, "Grifo."

Posted by tadowe"

It is often best to heed expert advise.

If there's anyone here who knows their aluminum chapeaus, it's our very own psycho-Tad.

Eisenhower warned us that this was coming.

A group kills democracy in its self-interest, then, when democracy is dead, implements its real agenda.

The real, impossible-to-swallow-without-
dictatorship agenda is just coming.

Like the people who voted in Hitler before they knew what he was, like the Communist Party Members who voted for Stalin in the name of fraternity, before they knew what he was.

Like the Soviet Union, that tried to export "Fraternal Communism" through occupation, we have begun the process of exporting "Democracy" through occupation.

The president has taken us to war. Thousands are dead. Billions are now owed because of the decisions of this one man.

He was not alone in the decision making. Republicans and Democrats voted to allow war and financial backing. Those that voted against it have a right to complain. The rest put others' lives on the line for their decision. Many countries agreed that there was much at stake. The only countries voting against the war were bribed. The UN inspectors came back right before the invasion and said Iraq wasn't complying and didn't disclose everything. Saddam threatened and stood on his soapbox. Was he bluffing? When the man holds a gun, you must guess if it is loaded. Many countries believed it was loaded.


And now, the nation is realizing he was probably not even ever elected.

Proof of this - the nation? You mean a minority compared to the majority.

We are a republic and a democracy.

Prove stolen elections. Prove illegal acts. Lots of accusations and lots of conspiracy stories. Sounds like the 9/11 threads we had a little while ago. No one doing anything but complaining.

This subject is getting so old.

It doesn't matter.

Nothing will change.

There are other issues more pressing at this time.

"Prove stolen elections. Prove illegal acts. Lots of accusations and lots of conspiracy stories."

So in the same post you justify going to war based on a best guess but you're angry that people are making this accusation without proof?

"""Republicans and Democrats voted to allow war and financial backing."""

Not going to let you get away with that lie. They voted while they were still believing the lies that Bush told them. When they found out the truth many regretted their votes. Had Bush been honest about the intelligence he received they would not have supported invading Iraq. This is one of the favorite lies of Republicans to attempt to spread the guilt around but it only works on those who are uninformed.

And Lisa,
"""There are other issues more pressing at this time."""

We have soldiers dying in Iraq right now, supposedly to bring democracy to Iraq, and you don't think that insuring that we actually have a democracy ourselves is the MOST important thing.
With thinking like that we may as well appoint a dictator and be done with it.
Apathy is the killer of democracy.

"""Prove stolen elections. Prove illegal acts."""

As if the corrupt Republicans will even investigate. Prove it my ass.

Talk about a "Grifo" and up one pops!

Corky says, "If there's anyone here who knows their aluminum chapeaus, it's our very own psycho-Tad."

Are you and Alex related, by any chance, other than by your mob-mentality, that is?

"When all you have are excuses and conspiracies you have nothing"

I think 101BourneFag will eat these words come November.

Wow, for a "conspiracy" that sees voting fraud, this one has an awful lot of footnotes. And Boxy, there are many professionals who will verify each and every footnote. I think they will stand for the most part. Correct me in a month if I am wrong; that should be enough time for a vigorous debunking attempt, which you know damn well will be coming.

Skizziks, I'm sure lots of these folks would like to arrive at my door in the dead of night and haul me away for the crime of opposing their bid for dictatorship. History is replete with this kind of stuff. I just can't believe it's bashing at the door of America. I thought this country was a shining light on a hill.

Nevertheless, the word is out among Rolling Stone's readers--the stench from Republicans is growing. They won't stop it by hauling me away--they'll have to haul all of us away. And then cover it up.

It's been done before, by the people we were raised to condemn, Htiler, Stalin, etc., etc. It started with Cain and went right through Jesus Christ, and it's still present in this world. "For we fight not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities, and wickedness in high places." And yes, we fight. For truth. With footnotes.

""other than by your mob-mentality""

Psycho-Tad, please include me in that mob. BTW, you may want to avoid lightning storms with that silly hat on.

Danni:

My point was to mean that nothing will be done about the election, or any other suspicious activity from this administration while republicans control all... and those troops in Iraq are the pressing issue I was refering to.

It makes no sense to me to beat a dead horse....and that's just what this issue is.

Time is better spent in the here and now trying to make changes that can happen.

Danni begs, ". . . please include me in that mob."

I am not your shepherd, Danni. Besides, you include yourself by saying this and making me your subject of discussion (always flattering no matter the rhetoric):

"Psycho Tad . . . BTW, you may want to avoid lightning storms with that silly hat on."

See? How original you and your ilk happen to be -- kind of a PeeWee Hemanish sort of reprise!

Lisa,
if they did steal the election why wouldn't they steal the next one???
Until we investigate and prosecute we are living in a virtual dictatorship and those troops will remain in Iraq (or elsewhere) as long as the appointed president dictates. The only way of changing things is to demand an investigation and the appropriate actions that result. If that means hauling the president out in handcuffs then that is what is necessary. Personally, my opinion is that it will require exactly that. Time will tell.

It's truly amazing that the IRS can keep track of every cent I make, but vote "anomalies" happen again and again. Is it that difficult in this technological society to keep accurate tally of one-person, one-vote? Or, maybe it's just convenient to keep this haphazard process so there is some "float" in the vote.

Um, actually, what I've seen of 9/11 issues, there are tons of footnotes. But footnotes can't be trusted, right, or even enter into questioning official versions? I'm no tin-foil hatter, not with a good college education and a career that involves plenty of fact-checking. I find footnotes useful--and telling.

But now footnotes aren't even valid to Bushites. Wow, it's so inconvenient that researchers add them, isn't it? You know, I think people who declare all footnotes lies might be...liars?

RFK Jr. comes out here as a straight-shooter, and Repubs as fully corrupt and crooked, intent on one thing: winning. Now it's on the cover of Rolling Stone, and the article is pretty airtight. Expect much spinning, propaganda, talking points, lies, ad hominems...the usual.

"Are you and Alex related, by any chance, other than by your mob-mentality, that is?"

Ah, but Tad, mob mentality is better than no mentality at all.

Continue on, gramps, as an Army of One, battling the forces of reality with the battleax of your vivid conspiritorial imagination.

War heroes are traitors. Wholly unjustified pre-emptive farces are wars.
Voting fraud never happens. Up is down, black is white.....

Rant on, puling pissant, rant on!!

The article may reveal an inconvenient truth, but it's still the truth; the truth doesn't change by burying it or denying it. How dishonest to attempt to.

To coin a phrase, some people can't handle the truth.

I didn't realize there was an RFK jr head to the Kennedy medusa.

Ha. I love the way partisans always use adjectives as though they were settled matters. "...corrupt Democrats..." Whitey? Are you aware that the stench of corruption is currently reeking from Republicans--but you don't read the papers, do you? Or perhaps you just don't believe them.

This article is more of that stench, but hey, hold your nose if you want and it'll go away--for you.

"""Then why don't the corrupt Democrats investigate?"""

Committee investigations in Congress require the approval of the majority which is Republican. That is why there also have never been investigations about the missing 7 billion in Iraq, why the 9-11 commission wasn't as thorough and honest as it should have been, etc.
Why don't Republicans call and write their Congressmen and Senators and demand investigations. Are you all secretly ok with stolen investigations and thus you don't really want to know the truth????
I suspect that is true, and I think most Republicans do too.

"Until we investigate and prosecute we are living in a virtual dictatorship"

I absolutely agree.

"The only way of changing things is to demand an investigation and the appropriate actions that result."

Until November, you and I both know that an investigation isn't going to happen.


Personally, I would love to see enough Republicans fearful enough for their job, knowing that Bush is in the toilet and is of no use to them, stand up and issue an investigation to try and show the people that they are on the right side of ethics.

I won't hold my breath.

BTW, all the Republicans I know, and some are truly rock-ribbed, are distraught that Bush is president, and distraught over his policies and the corruption oozing from his administration. They call him an asshole at the least, and let's not get into the worst.

I was hesitant to bring this up with them, but THEY brought it up with ME. Then again, I live in a blue state, and maybe blue-state Republicans are a different breed. But they've been Republicans far longer than the Dixiecrats have.

I still like Ike, BTW.

"And congress can have investigations without full commitee approval."

But without committee approval, they cannot get supoena power, so any investigations would be toothless.

Lisa,
if they did steal the election why wouldn't they steal the next one???
Until we investigate and prosecute we are living in a virtual dictatorship and those troops will remain in Iraq (or elsewhere) as long as the appointed president dictates. The only way of changing things is to demand an investigation and the appropriate actions that result. If that means hauling the president out in handcuffs then that is what is necessary. Personally, my opinion is that it will require exactly that. Time will tell.

Posted by danni at 2006-06-02 09:48 AM

Danni,
Maybe you and several othere here should climb a tree and go on a hunger strike in protest of the corruption you bi@# I mean complain about day after day after day after day after day...... And so on...... Pissin n moanin ain't a fix! If you have proof that you have in your possession turn it over to the FBI.

Whitey, clearly you have to read the article first to have any credibility here.

I dreamed up networked electronic voting back in 1969 when we got a local cable network in my college's town. I thought it through trying to figure out how to keep it honest, and I couldn't devise a real good system. I spent five years at the center of the Internet explosion, so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. The evidence of voting fraud is so overwhelming that it's just impossible to ignore. Inconvenient thing, evidence. Statistics, too (hint: math is a science).

Go to www.blackboxvoting.com (it won't bite you) and do some reading. Read the Rolling Stone article, it's on the Web. Then let's have a fact-based discussion. Some of you folks think that hot air, buster, and denial will do the trick. It won't.

Actually, the proof has been turned over to Rolling Stone. Now on newsstands across the nation.

Deal with it.

Oh Rodeglide...you crack me up!

How easy it is to spew your crap when you know an investigation won't happen.

What's even more funny, is that you and others keep "pissn n moanin" about a blowjob even after that investigation.

LOL

Typical.

Footnotes, folks, footnotes. Without footnotes I'd have a jaundiced eye too.

Scholarship trumps opinion any day. I eagerly await refutation that's equally based on scholarship.

It's no surprise that dictatorships like to burn books and round up intellectuals.

-- Sen. Christopher Dodd (D-Conn) hit the nail on the head when he observes, "In Ohio, you had a secretary of state who was determined to guarantee a Republican outcome."

-- The man in charge of the counting was Kenneth Blackwell, the co-chair of President Bush's re-election committee AND(!!) Ohio's secretary of state.

-- As Ohio's secretary of state, Blackwell had broad powers to interpret and implement state and federal election laws -- setting standards for everything from the processing of voter registration to the conduct of official recounts. And as Bush's re-election chair in Ohio, he had a powerful motivation to rig the rules for his candidate.

-- In January 2005, Conyers issued a detailed report that outlined "massive and unprecedented voter irregularities and anomalies in Ohio." The problems, the report concludes, were "caused by intentional misconduct and illegal behavior, much of it involving Secretary of State Blackwell."

-- The first indication that something was gravely amiss was the inexplicable discrepancies between exit polls and actual vote counts. Polls in thirty states weren't just off the mark -- they deviated to an extent that cannot be accounted for by their margin of error. In all but four states, the discrepancy favored President Bush.

Let's have a little truth or dare here, folks--at the top of each post, let's say "I read the article."

Then we can be assured we're discussing as adults and not as children.

Then maybe some of us who have actually read it can do a few pop quizzes on the hot air crowd.

Whitey,

You know very well that's because people know for a fact what they put into the financial transaction system and they have a receipt to prove it.

Nice try, though. And no, I didn't invent the Internet, and I know Al Gore didn't and never claimed to. I do know that he vigorously supported DARPANET, the predecessor to the Internet. But I'll bet you knew that.

Whitey: Foul. Ad hominem (Conyers). Five yards.

Danni, Republicans and Democrats voted for the war. That is not a lie. They voted for it. You can say they were lied to. Anyone watching for the 10 years up until the invasion and Saddam wasn't complying, that he had weapons that he chose to take his time to destroy and didn't disclose all of it. You cry for WMD's. That was not the only reason we went in. Many countries agreed Saddam had to go. So did the previous administration and Congress. They all saw for 10 years a smoking gun and finally decided enough already, disarm him with force. Saddam brought this on.

Now, if they were lied to and believe this, what have they done once the truth was known? Nothing. We stayed the course and continue to stay the course.

The leaders won't withdraw and so lives are cost. Why should we stay?

Hillary Clinton went public and basically said it. We made a mistake. We went in, took out Saddam, and discovered a mess that were in. She also realized that withdrawal is not in the best interest of the Middle East or us. Why? Because we need to be responsible for the mess we made. Should we just let the country try to stand on its own and just get out? What's your suggestion for Congress?

I'd prefer a full withdrawal with that being told to the UN. You think the UN will just sit back and let us walk away? NO, they'll want troops to stay and suddenly, the UN will be in there for peace-keeping.

To coin a phrase, a mind is a terrible thing to close.

I always stand to be corrected. Just come up with evidence, not innuendo. This article contains plenty of evidence. Look the word up.

..........VELKOM TO AMERIKA..........

*****( Tune of Good Bye Tootsie )******

Goodbye freedom goodbiiihhhhyyyy

Velkom Bush Family oh mmmmmiiiihhhhhyyy

Watch our country deeeecliiihhhiiiine !

RODEGLIDE proves my point. He doesn't want the truth. He prefers to believe what is convenient from his point of view. If it were a Democrat who stole the election I am sure he would see things differently but us Dems, unlike Republicans, would want the truth in such a situation.
It's the difference between being honest and dishonest.

You know, it's pretty much accepted now that Saddam wanted people to think he had WMDs but had abandoned them after GWI. However, I don't have a link immediately at hand, maybe someone else does. Still doesn't explain the Wilson/Plame thing, the Downing Street Memorandum, the manipulation of the CIA, etc., etc., etc.

When dishonesty on the part of gov't pops up with great frequency, as it does most recently in the RFK Jr. article, surprise, people become more skeptical about everything we're told. That's healthy. That's why we have the Internet (for now).

""Danni, Republicans and Democrats voted for the war.""

Never said they didn't but they did so while they were under the false impressions about the threat Saddam represented that Bush purposefully created. It is amazing to me that you would really still bring up the point that they voted for the war and just disregard the reasons why. It's as if you want anything except the truth because then you would have to admit you were wrong. Stubbornness of citizens such as yourself is costing the lives of young men and women right now. In Vietnam it took the stubborn people so long that 58,000 of our guys died, is that what you want again. Give it up, we were lied into war and now we have to extricate ourselves as quickly as possible. The thing is....in the end....when the mission fails....when enough of the stubborn like yourself finally admit your error in judgement....we will leave anyway....so any soldiers who die from now til then leave blood on the hands of the stubborn supporters of this illegal, unnecessary, foolish war.

RODEGLIDE proves my point. He doesn't want the truth.

Truth? A crackpot conspiracy theory is truth?


Here's a conspiracy theory for you:

Jimmy Carter rigged the exit polls. I do believe he certified the election victory for your hero Hugo Chavez. The exit polls in that election were FAR more schewed than the 2004 exit polls for Bush. So, to take the heat off the stolen Chavez election, Carter rigged the US exit polls to throw doubt into the exit polls in general. He was covering his own ass.


Seriously folks, look at the polling on the day before the election for the following states:
Michigan
Ohio
Pennsylvania
Wisconsin

Then look at the exit polling. THEN, look at the election results. The election results pretty much reflect the polling one-day prior to the election. Hmmmmm.....

Check it out, if you have the intellectual honesty to do so.

Whitey,

As long as they could trust the people who are administering the verification system.

That's what this whole thing is about. It doesn't matter who votes; what matters is who COUNTS the votes.

And you know that digital technology is a playground for fraud. You can change lots of stuff, but you can't change a ballot that the voter has a copy of, though Republicans are hard at work on making machines that spit out a different receipt than the digital vote. Ever play three-card monte? Did ya get rich?

Oh, and the woman who designed the Florida butterfly ballot? Did you know she was a Republican, then became a Democrat to design the ballot, then switched back to Republican? Have you ever seen the ballot? It was clearly designed to make it very difficult to select the candidate of your choice. So a bunch of Jews voted for Pat Buchanan? I think not. More dirty tricks--read the RFK Jr. article and the footnotes, and tell me there isn't enough smoke here for the Great Chicago Fire.


* * * * *

OK, first of all, I did see the ballot. It WAS very simple, notwithstanding the fact that if it were difficult for you to understand, you could have merely gone outside the booth and asked one of the poll workers for help.

Jews voted for Buchanan because the Democrats distributed a voting guide that had errors. This is typical in Florida counties, BTW--that the parties will distribute voting guides to people who don't really live there, they just claim Florida residency to escape state income taxes. In 2000, the Dem voting guide instructed them to punch a certain box number for president--unfortunately for them, that box was for Buchanan, not Gore. Didn't you stop to wonder how, on NOON of election day, the Dems were showing up complaining they had been "disenfranchised", even though the polls would be open another 7 hours? It's because they had already voted, and made mistakes!! They didn't even trouble themselves to double check to make sure that box #3 was for Gore, and not for Buchanan! As a result, Buchanan took more votes in liberal, Jewish Palm Beach County than in most of the rest of the state combined.

The reason we have all these voting machines is because the Dems couldn't even print up an election voting guide properly. I say junk the machines, go back to paper ballots, and if you're too stupid to read them, you shouldn't be allowed to vote anyhow.

JeffJ,

I challenge you: Did you read the RFK Jr. article?

Now let's talk about intellectual honesty.

Danni,

Take a gander at Clinton's assessment of Iraq in 1998 when he launched operation Desert Fox. Then look at Bush's assessments: virtually identical. Remember, from '98 to '02 weapons inspectors were not in Iraq. How much do you honestly believe the intel was going to change during that time with minimal eyes and ears in the trenches? Furthermore, do you truly believe that Saddam decided to scrap his weapons aspirations AFTER inspectors were removed? Do you think he would NEVER even consider attempting to take advantage of a lack of oversight between 1998 and 2004?

Jimi,

No, I didn't read the article, yet. However, I've read a number of studies that were links supplied by "DCINMA", one of this site's staunchest Democrats. So, it's not as if I haven't examined the evidence.

Your case is extremely tenuous at best.

Nice deflection though.

That the machines run on Windows CE should be scary enough. Now this......

"So it turns out that hacking a Diebold touchscreen voting machine is just slightly harder than opening a box of Cracker Jack and stealing the prize inside.

All you need is a PC Card, a little know-how, and a few minutes alone with the machine to change how it counts votes.

A Diebold spokesbot said such a hack would require election officials to be "evil and nefarious" -- and, of course, such people simply don't exist.

So everything's hunky-dory. Isn't it great to live in country where anyone can grow up to fix an election?"

www.infoworld.com

Posted by Corky at 2006-06-01 05:18 PM |

Hacker Cracker Jacks, indeed.

Followed the footnotes from the article and it linked to other articles. Not to proof of the illegal acts but proof of other articles alleging illegal acts. I guess if there is an article on the Internet that we can take it as truth of the allegations.

Face it, both parties cheat. If we want to clean it up we need more political parties that are not connected and owned by the R & D.

www.freerepublic.com/forum/
a3a0b6d9b1def.htm

www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-
6.htm

www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?
ARTICLE_ID=20223

RisR, I agree: Go back to paper ballots, give everybody a signed, stamped receipt. Now, didn't the same woman who designed the butterfly ballots also write or supervise the voter guides? She was the election commissioner.

At www.blackboxvoting.com there's plenty of corroborated material on the butterfly ballot and everything else that was an issue arising from Florida 2000. I suggest some reading there --if it's not true, you don't have to change your mind.

Election fraud is always wrong. If true, these allegations RFK makes should send a lot of people to prison, forever. But quite of few of the issues he cites, I truly don't see as problems. The DOD website to handle overseas registrations going down, for example--I happen to know that the vast majority of military overseas are Republicans. For nine years of overseas duty, I was one of them--a Florida absentee ballot voter, stationed overseas. It pissed me off, in fact, to learn after the fact that my votes were never even counted unless the election was close enough to matter.

I also don't have a problem with purging the tax rolls from time to time, and doing what you can to ensure that the people voting in your precinct LIVE in your precinct. This is less important for national elections, than for local ones. Suppose I move, but don't bother informing the elections people; couldn't I show up to vote in a mayoral election? It's not perfect how Ohio did it--sending letters out with return mail, but how else do you propose? I wouldn't mind making people show up on election day with a photo ID and proof of residence--a gas bill, a cable bill, a phone bill--just like they do when I register my kids for school--but the Dems don't want that either, because thousands of homeless people would be "disenfranchised". Oh well.

-- "Exit polls are almost never wrong", Dick Morris, a consultant who has worked for both Republicans and Democrats, noted after the 2004 vote. Such surveys are "so reliable, that they are used as guides to the relative honesty of elections in Third World countries." In 2003, vote tampering revealed by exit polling in the Republic of Georgia forced Eduard Shevardnadze to step down. And in November 2004, exit polling in the Ukraine -- paid for by the Bush administration -- exposed election fraud that denied Viktor Yushchenko the presidency.

-- ... as the evening progressed, official tallies began to show implausible disparities -- as much as 9.5 percent -- with the exit polls. In ten of the eleven battleground states, the tallied margins departed from what the polls had predicted. In every case, the shift favored Bush. Based on exit polls, CNN had predicted Kerry defeating Bush in Ohio by a margin of 4.2 percentage points. Instead, election results showed Bush winning the state by 2.5 percent. Bush also tallied 6.5 percent more than the polls had predicted in Pennsylvania, and 4.9 percent more in Florida.(33)

-- According to Steven F. Freeman, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania who specializes in research methodology, the odds against all three of those shifts occurring in concert are one in 660,000. "As much as we can say in sound science that something is impossible, it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote count in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error." In his forthcoming book, Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count, Freeman lays out a statistical analysis of the polls that is deeply troubling.

JeffJ, your post is extremely dishonest at best.

Nice deflection, though.

The RFK Jr. article is posted everywhere; I read it at www.truthout.org this morning. Please read it and then we'll discuss. Anything else is--how else can I say it--intellectually dishonest. Thanks.

RODEGLIDE proves my point. He doesn't want the truth. He prefers to believe what is convenient from his point of view.
Posted By danni.

This isn't about my point of view, if you have real proof, I'll listen. You have many accusations, but no PROOF to back them up. I can say that (you) Danni is a Victoria Secrects cover model, but until I offer proof, it still is just an accusation.

I'm for voting reform that is HONEST on both sides. I condemn Democrats rigging the process as much as I do Republicans.

The numbers cited in the article indicate that the fraud was MASSIVELY tilted in favor of Bush. Unless you don't believe in math, statistics, or abundant hard evidence.

You could always believe in fairy tales here. La-la.

BS, Jimi.

As I've already mentioned, I've read a number of studies that were referred to me by a stauch Democrat. I haven't read this article yet only because I am short on time and am about to bow out for the day - I have work to do.


Care to address the questions and challenges I've issued? I notice you have yet to address them, but have instead attempted to turn it around and make me the subject. THAT is a deflection.

Rodeglide,

How many times do people have to tell you that we're discussing a well-footnoted article here, and that honest discussion presumes that all participants have read the article? If you have time to post here all day, you have time to read the article.

It won't bite you. It's conveniently linked right next to the link for this thread. Not hard to find.

JEFF
"""Take a gander at Clinton's assessment of Iraq in 1998 when he launched operation Desert Fox."""

Jeff, Clinton was cognizant of the fact that invading and occupying Iraq would be a bad idea because he listened to George H Bush, unlike his moronic son.
There were lots of things we could have done short of invading. If we did invade though, remember the Powell Doctrine????
Clinton did not try to fight war on the cheap in Bosnia and our casualty rate reflected that fact. Clinton also did not push tax cuts while we were engaged in a war. I'm sorry, but the time for attempting to justify the decisions of this corrupt administration is over. Further attempts to justify or excuse what they have done make you look like the stubborn partisan that I think you have pretty much become.

"""I can say that (you) Danni is a Victoria Secrects cover model, but until I offer proof, it still is just an accusation."""

Oh....my secret is out.

No, Jeff. We're discussing THE ARTICLE, not me or you. *That's* the deflection. Let's get back to the article--read it, or be intellectually dishonest in front of us all.

It won't bite you. And it IS the topic of this thread. It's got all the info you're challenging me to produce. So I'll produce it: It's in the article. Surprise. Duh.

Now, didn't the same woman who designed the butterfly ballots also write or supervise the voter guides? She was the election commissioner.

* * * * * *

No. Republicans in Palm Beach County are pretty thin on the ground, period. The Florida DNC printed up the voting guides. The party also charters buses from retirement homes to the polling places. Nobody even knew there was a problem until an old guy comes back to the bus and says, "hey--I thought you guys wanted us to vote for Gore. According this voters' guide, you're telling us to vote for Buchanan." Then they shit a collective brick, and starting hollering about how their voters were disenfranchised.

Later in the debacle, Robert Wexler, the Congressman from Palm Beach, stands up and says that most of the ballots thrown out were from African-American voters, and demanded a revote. Ummm--how do you know that? Did they sign their names? Did they check off a box that says their ethnicity? Almost everything that happened in Florida in 2000 was a clear result of Democratic stupidity. This might explain why people left the polling places and said they had voted for Gore, but he lost the election anyway.

And BTW: it also pissed us off that they called the state for Gore, even though the polls were still open in NW Florida, which is in the Central Time Zone, and staunchly Republican. Between the media, the exit polling, and the moronic Dems that run SE Florida, and--most of all--Janet Reno's sending Elian Gonzales back to Cuba--Florida was bound to be a disaster.

Oh....my secret is out.

Posted by danni

I always figgered you for a BABE!!!


It won't bite you. It's conveniently linked right next to the link for this thread. Not hard to find.

Posted by Jimi_left at 2006-06-02 11:10 AM

YEAH, I have clicked on those before, toooo many big words.

OK, so then where are the charges??? Charge the lil guy involved and let the shit roll up the Hill.

Come on, Whitey. You and I both know that digital "reality" is just a few well-placed bits from digital fraud. And the evidence of digital fraud and attempts at digital fraud have been documented more than adequately. Again, put on your earplugs and blinders if you must, but cruise over to www.blackboxvoting.com and poke around, read a bit.

And again, it really helps if the mouths here actually read the RFK Jr. article; after all, it's what we're discussing here. How bizarre that thought is.

One thing about exit polling: they are done constantly during the day. I remember that early in the day Bush was very concerned, then later the numbers started to reverse when - - - hang on - - - people got off of work and went to vote.

Might come as a surprise to Democrats, but a lot of people with jobs are Republicans. And a lot of those Republicans vote. Not the easiest thing to take off in the middle of the day to cast your vote when that means waiting in line for 90 minutes.

Several pollsters called the election almost exactly right. Rasmussen, for one. Zogby has been so far off on a LOT of elections I'm surprised he's quoted at all. The difference is that Rasmussen polls only likely voters who have voted in the last several elections--not people who merely SAY they are going to vote.

RIGHTISRIGHT
Thanks for the distorted memory of the election in Florida. If you really believe a bunch of jews in Palm Beach Co. voted for Buchanan then I have some land west of Ft. Lauderdale to sell to you. Also, if you have such belief in the counting process then why don't you write Jeb and ask him why he opposes a paper trail which is required under the Florida State Constitution. Til then, the results from that election are doubted worldwide. American democracy is a memory.

"However, I've read a number of studies that were links supplied by "DCINMA", one of this site's staunchest Democrats"

Hey...I wondered why my ears were ringing a little while ago!

I don't have time to post in depth on the subject today, but the statistical analyses on the 2004 election exit polls vs certified results - in several states -is, to me, very strong evidence of vote tampering efforts by the republicans.

Anyhow, I have to run, I'm really tied up for today.

Ah, the reinforcements are here and I can go to work. Not to imply that vetting posters here is not work. It's hard werk.

RisR, the term "debacle" to describe Florida 2000 has been used extensively by both sides. Have you read the other side's view on this, with verifiable documentation?

Kudos to RFK Jr. for providing so many footnotes. I do like those things.

Have a good day, everybody. Practice intellectual honesty--your country's integrity and future are at stake. It's one way of defending our freedom.

I have a serious question that merits a serious answer -- Why cannot the major polling organizations who conduct these routine approval rating polls ask the following additional question: "Did you vote in 2004?"; "If so, who did you vote for?"

The results should be a decent proxy for the election data. It would be interesting to see if there is a match.

Danni, quit being deliberately stupid. The ballots marked for Buchanan are REAL. REAL PEOPLE VOTED FOR BUCHANAN IN THE BIGGEST JEWISH COUNTY IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, AND THE BIGGEST JEWISH COUNTY SOUTH OF THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY!!!!

They relied on their voters' guide, rather than just looking at the ballot itself. It your own party is too stupid to double-check to make SURE the ballot in the voting guide was the same as the ACTUAL ONE USED, maybe your guy deserved to lose. That occur to you? That the Florida Dem Party is incompetent?

If there was no paper trail, what were the newspapers are poring over to see who really won the election? What were all those bug-eyed researchers doing, staring at every single ballot, looking for "hanging chads"--or is my memory defective again? You don't remember all the FLORI-DUH jokes?

We have retards like you to thank for these voting machines. Yes, these voters were stupid, and so are the people who defend them. So, probably, are their preferred candidates. That's life.

I'm not surprised that those who back Bush still have trouble believing that America wouldn't return the Administration that took a $5 trillion projected surplus and turned it into the largest deficit in history. Why wouldn't Americans not elect the leaders that allowed the attacks of 9/11 to occur on their watch while the largest military in the history of the world was unable to respond to 19 Arabs with boxcutters and fireproof passports? Why should we believe in statistical anomalies heretofore viewed as impossibilities as anything more than sour grapes from those who would say or do anything to "get Bush"? Why should we give credence to the views of a man that "despises Democrats"...

"According to Steven F. Freeman, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania who specializes in research methodology, the odds against all three of those shifts occurring in concert are one in 660,000. ''As much as we can say in sound science that something is impossible,'' he says, ''it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote count in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error.'' (See The Tale of the Exit Polls)

Puzzled by the discrepancies, Freeman laboriously examined the raw polling data released by Edison/Mitofsky in January 2005. ''I'm not even political -- I despise the Democrats,'' he says. ''I'm a survey expert. I got into this because I was mystified about how the exit polls could have been so wrong.'' In his forthcoming book, Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count, Freeman lays out a statistical analysis of the polls that is deeply troubling.

Why should we give any of this a moment of thought? Because if we truly LOVE THIS COUNTRY, we all must look at this evidence and use our own minds to discern whether or not powers willing to usurp the most precious right we have against our government, the right to choose whom we trust to lead us, did infact occur, for if one side can do it, what is to stop the other side from doing it as well? In my opinion, only opportunity and means, and does anyone doubt both are readily available to those willing to try?

RightisRight,

Actually the exit polling never changed, it was the actual population poll that changed toward the end of the day. Exit polls don't lie, and they sure don't lie in favor of one canidate overwhelmingly across the country. The exit polls in Florida in 2000 did not lie either. But I chalk that one up to democrats creating a very bad ballot that caused careless people to vote for the wrong person. People would come out and talk to exit pollers and say "I voted for Gore", well actually you thought you voted for gore, but you actually voted for Gastapo Pat you moron you. The good news is that in a free soiciety evil people normaly only get away with evil for so long (ala Nixon). The republicans evil whining ways are catching up to them, and the country is officially about to shift back to the left. I think we can expect another 40 years of democrat rule. The last 40 years of democrat rule saw us go from a nice country to the richest super power in history. Methinks the democrats have proven themselves in the past, and will again in the future. Democrat power!!!!!!

Tony, nice cut and paste. You provide only part. The whole article to that link provides reason to attack Iraq. Of course, the only information you can provide and this link is the unclassified part.

It's been said before, there is classified information that you and I will never see. But, the President saw it and Members of Congress have every right to see it if they are going to fund a war based on classified information.

Where's the classified information supporting the war decision. Until one has seen all the available information that the President was provided, the decision of right or wrong choice is not possible.

Congress, both R & D still have left our troops over there. Why do they do that if it's all a lie?

"-- According to Steven F. Freeman, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania who specializes in research methodology, the odds against all three of those shifts occurring in concert are one in 660,000. "As much as we can say in sound science that something is impossible, it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote count in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error." In his forthcoming book, Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count, Freeman lays out a statistical analysis of the polls that is deeply troubling." - What are the odds of WTC 1, 2, and 7 all falling the way they did without explosives set?

The last 40 years of democrat rule saw us go from a nice country to the richest super power in history. Methinks the democrats have proven themselves in the past, and will again in the future. Democrat power!!!!!!

What party president was in office when we went into:
World War II
Korea
Vietnam

Petrous,

My point exactly. Also, by 40 years of democrat power I mean control of two or more branches of government.

"What are the odds of WTC 1, 2, and 7 all falling the way they did without explosives set?"
Posted by Petrous

Well, probably 1:1

Particularly when you consider no residue of explosives were ever found.

Whinning republicans always try to portray democrats as weak because we tend to think about things, but democrats are normaly the ones that get tough when it is time to get tough. The last two medal of honor recipients I know of who served in congress were democrats. Remember Bob Kerrey? The evil has to stop, come November America will stop it. 40 more Baby!, 40 more!!!!!

LOL @ Dan.

I thought McCain won the MOH, too.

"""Why do they do that if it's all a lie?"""

Was this really a serious question???
It is pretty obvious that many in Congress regret their vote granting Bush the authority to invade but feel a responsibility to try to restore order to the country before we leave. It is beginning to look pretty hopeless though and I predict that they will soon tire of worrying about that responsibility and bring the troops home regardless of the consequences just as they did in Vietnam. I think that people around the world will be unlikely to cooperate with Americans if we choose to invade any other nation because in the end we leave them there to deal with the reprisals that will come when we leave.

Petrous...

The only thing I stated was that when people say there was no intel pointing to the notion Saddam WASN'T a threat, they are lying. Where did I say there wasn't intel showing the opposite? I didn't, and your point is irrelevant to mine, for we've all seen and heard what the Administration said made Saddam an "imminent threat."

And on your point about what hasn't been released, why do you think that any relevant intel we don't know about isn't trumped by the reality that no WMDs were found inside Iraq? What difference does this make today? If there was intel pointing to more, it was defacto WRONG wasn't it? This argument is meaningless faced with the reality of nothing being found! Of course, the US doesn't want to release anything that gives others insight into our capabilities of intel gathering, but the facts trump what hasn't been released, don't they? Saddam's cupboard was bare! I don't need secret intel that points to the opposite when reality is right before my eyes!

None of this really matters in the end. If the voter is too stupid to show up at the polls, push the right button, make a complete hole, or give the correct information, then they do not deserve to vote.

That goes for repubs and dems. I mean it is not like we are asking people to rub their stomachs and pat their heads at the same time.

You know, if you can't pat your head and rub your tummy, maybe you shouldn't be able to vote. Maybe they should ask voters to do that first.

Sam...

It seems obvious that you haven't read the article, have you? This is about people that showed up and didn't have their vote count for a myriad of reasons, most of which had nothing to do with the voter's personal shortcomings. It also speaks of many voters being unable to vote because they had been purged from the voter roles illegally. This isn't just another recounting of the Palm Beach county fiasco. Read and you will become learned.

Can't Believe the Dems are still whinig abiut the election. Why can't they understand the American people would rather have a President that sticks to his guns then a President who wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit him on the nose. Thats why bush won the election. he didn't steal it. Kerry had no agenda and couldn't tell the truth. He filp-flopped on every issue he was asked about. So please, quit whining

Saddam's cupboard was not bare. According the UN inspectors, he was not destroying the weapons fast enough and he did not disclose all the weapons he had (remember they found another weapon of his in that last visit)

As for no other intel saying he wasn't a threat you picked just a small part out of the entire page of the link you provided. You conveniently printed only the part that said Iraq was seriously a problem. If anyone would follow the link you gave as I did, they would read how the majority of what is on that link suggests Iraq is a bigger problem than the little piece you chose to print.

Iraq was a problem and always has been. We got rid of the piece and now we're playing gov't-builder. It took 4 years to build Japan's. The mistake I see with Iraq was we should have had martial law from day one after the thrashing of the Iraqi Army.

Tony, you wanted to portray the Iraq war was started where intelligence didn't agree. The intelligence you presented was a mighty small part of all the intel and their analysis doesn't hold up to those that actually inspected Iraq -the UN inspectors.

"""Thats why bush won the election. he didn't steal it."""

You state this as if it were a fact. It isn't and evidence is appearing which indicates Bush,in fact, did not win the election. That means that more people voted for the other guy. That means that it is likely that you would believe anything they told you. Like, for instance, Saddam has WMDs. Like, the insurgency is falling apart. Wake up, ok???

Mighty...

"To stem the tide of new registrations, the Republican National Committee and the Ohio Republican Party attempted to knock tens of thousands of predominantly minority and urban voters off the rolls through illegal mailings known in electioneering jargon as ''caging.'' During the Eighties, after the GOP used such mailings to disenfranchise nearly 76,000 black voters in New Jersey and Louisiana, it was forced to sign two separate court orders agreeing to abstain from caging.(63) But during the summer of 2004, the GOP targeted minority voters in Ohio by zip code, sending registered letters to more than 200,000 newly registered voters(64) in sixty-five counties.(65) On October 22nd, a mere eleven days before the election, Ohio Republican Party Chairman Bob Bennett -- who also chairs the board of elections in Cuyahoga County -- sought to invalidate the registrations of 35,427 voters who had refused to sign for the letters or whose mail came back as undeliverable.(66) Almost half of the challenged voters were from Democratic strongholds in and around Cleveland.(67)

There were plenty of valid reasons that voters had failed to respond to the mailings: The list included people who couldn't sign for the letters because they were serving in the U.S. military, college students whose school and home addresses differed,(68) and more than 1,000 homeless people who had no permanent mailing address.(69) But the undeliverable mail, Bennett claimed, proved the new registrations were fraudulent.

By law, each voter was supposed to receive a hearing before being stricken from the rolls.(70) Instead, in the week before the election, kangaroo courts were rapidly set up across the state at Blackwell's direction that would inevitably disenfranchise thousands of voters at a time(71) -- a process that one Democratic election official in Toledo likened to an ''inquisition.''(72) ,b>Not that anyone was given a chance to actually show up and defend their right to vote: Notices to challenged voters were not only sent out impossibly late in the process, they were mailed to the very addresses that the Republicans contended were faulty.(73) Adding to the atmosphere of intimidation, sheriff's detectives in Sandusky County were dispatched to the homes of challenged voters to investigate the GOP's claims of fraud.(74)

On October 29th, a federal judge found that the Republican Party had violated the court orders from the Eighties that barred it from caging. ''The return of mail does not implicate fraud,'' the court affirmed,(78) and the disenfranchisement effort ,b>illegally targeted ''precincts where minority voters predominate, interfering with and discouraging voters from voting in those districts.''(79) Nor were such caging efforts limited to Ohio: The GOP also targeted hundreds of thousands of urban voters in the battleground states of Florida,(80) Pennsylvania(81) and Wisconsin.(82)

No, it is you who are turning allegation into fact. When did Tom Brokaw become a statistical expert like the ones stated in the article? Have you bothered to look at the numbers, or do you consider them "lies"? Anyone with a modicum of math skills can follow the numbers and arrive at a logical conclusion that something definitely is amiss. Please refute the stats with facts and not flawed interpretation of pre-election polling, when EVERYONE ADMITS that exit polling's margin of error is much less than pre-polling.

Mighty...

"To stem the tide of new registrations, the Republican National Committee and the Ohio Republican Party attempted to knock tens of thousands of predominantly minority and urban voters off the rolls through illegal mailings known in electioneering jargon as ''caging.'' During the Eighties, after the GOP used such mailings to disenfranchise nearly 76,000 black voters in New Jersey and Louisiana, it was forced to sign two separate court orders agreeing to abstain from caging.(63) But during the summer of 2004, the GOP targeted minority voters in Ohio by zip code, sending registered letters to more than 200,000 newly registered voters(64) in sixty-five counties.(65) On October 22nd, a mere eleven days before the election, Ohio Republican Party Chairman Bob Bennett -- who also chairs the board of elections in Cuyahoga County -- sought to invalidate the registrations of 35,427 voters who had refused to sign for the letters or whose mail came back as undeliverable.(66) Almost half of the challenged voters were from Democratic strongholds in and around Cleveland.(67)

There were plenty of valid reasons that voters had failed to respond to the mailings: The list included people who couldn't sign for the letters because they were serving in the U.S. military, college students whose school and home addresses differed,(68) and more than 1,000 homeless people who had no permanent mailing address.(69) But the undeliverable mail, Bennett claimed, proved the new registrations were fraudulent.

By law, each voter was supposed to receive a hearing before being stricken from the rolls.(70) Instead, in the week before the election, kangaroo courts were rapidly set up across the state at Blackwell's direction that would inevitably disenfranchise thousands of voters at a time(71) -- a process that one Democratic election official in Toledo likened to an ''inquisition.''(72) ,b>Not that anyone was given a chance to actually show up and defend their right to vote: Notices to challenged voters were not only sent out impossibly late in the process, they were mailed to the very addresses that the Republicans contended were faulty.(73) Adding to the atmosphere of intimidation, sheriff's detectives in Sandusky County were dispatched to the homes of challenged voters to investigate the GOP's claims of fraud.(74)

On October 29th, a federal judge found that the Republican Party had violated the court orders from the Eighties that barred it from caging. ''The return of mail does not implicate fraud,'' the court affirmed,(78) and the disenfranchisement effort illegally targeted ''precincts where minority voters predominate, interfering with and discouraging voters from voting in those districts.''(79) Nor were such caging efforts limited to Ohio: The GOP also targeted hundreds of thousands of urban voters in the battleground states of Florida,(80) Pennsylvania(81) and Wisconsin.(82)

No, it is you who are turning allegation into fact. When did Tom Brokaw become a statistical expert like the ones stated in the article? Have you bothered to look at the numbers, or do you consider them "lies"? Anyone with a modicum of math skills can follow the numbers and arrive at a logical conclusion that something definitely is amiss. Please refute the stats with facts and not flawed interpretation of pre-election polling, when EVERYONE ADMITS that exit polling's margin of error is much less than pre-polling.

You know, even that charter member of the vast right wing conspiracy, Mother Jones, has debunked JFK's theories. Along with another staunch supporter of the right-wing- NPR.
The Rolling Stoned article seems to be just another rant by another drunken Kennedy.

"Tony, you wanted to portray the Iraq war was started where intelligence didn't agree. The intelligence you presented was a mighty small part of all the intel and their analysis doesn't hold up to those that actually inspected Iraq -the UN inspectors."

Whaaaaaaa....????? Portray? I'm "portraying" the NIE? No, I'm quoting what is available that shows there was no "slam dunk" that Iraq had meaningful WMDs, and that everyone thought they would readily share them with al qadea. When you have conflicting viewpoints, do you consider that a consensus? Most of the suppositions were proven wrong by the absence of actual weapons nor programs and scientists saying that they were working on programs, unless they were so beholden to Saddam, that even after his deposing they wouldn't take the lucre offered by David Kay just to keep Saddam's secrets.

You aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with the facts of the situation which were found out after the invasion, not before. If you consider the little bit found post-invasion as being enough to move public opinion to the point that we'd back an invasion and occupation, then make the case. If not, what is your point? My point, again, is to show that some intel doubted what the Administration was saying about Saddam's ability to build, use or share WMDs with terrorists.

Mighty...

If I'm claiming that you're registered fradulently based on receiving a returned letter, then I send a challenge to the same address, what are the odds that it will reach you? This is why the courts call it illegal regardless of how you feel about it.
You said I made this up as an "allegation" (caging) and you're wrong, now admit it, regardless of how you feel about it!

Mighty...

Search the internet, or use state tax return information, do you really think its that hard? One can even try directory assistance. As the courts mentioned, the Republicans targeted only Democratic precincts, not every precinct in Ohio. And you're also implying that homeless people give up the right to vote if they can't provide a permanent address, which also has been ruled illegal by the courts.

The most expedient way to check these people out is to flag them on the voting roles, and to check out their credentials on election day, not to boot them without them even knowing it! This tactic is what it is: Illegal, and an attempt to target only certain voters (in this case, likely Democrats) not all voters.

Interesting that none of you leftists are taking note of the FACT that your own websites debunk this drivel from another Kennedy drunk.

BTW: If it were done to target affluent voters (read: Republicans during the summer in Florida or Arizona) in an area where many have second winter homes, I'd still say the same thing.

Porker...

We've roasted your ignorance on the spit of verified, sourced knowledge and statistics. Oink on down the road will ya? You can't debunk the truth or facts in evidence, ignatz. Go try and find some and leave the intelligent discourse to those who have enough of both to share in this forum. Its obvious you don't, or you can't read very well. Before you go, one question: Do you fly?

Mighty...

Our natural inclination not to believe "the fix is in" may be the very thing which allows it to occur. I find the very heavily analyzed data and statistics hard to digest without viewing all the anecdotal evidence which points to malfeasance, and has there ever been an 8 year period where the destiny of this country has taken such a divergent course than it likely would have if the election results were reversed? I mean the actions and words of both Blackwell, and the head of Diebold in regards to "Bush winning Ohio..." turn heads in a vaccuum, much less with all the ancillary anomalies we now know about.

On a more viseral level, when the Red Sox came back and beat the Yankees and won the World Series, I became a believer in "alternate reality" cause we all know that there was no way this could happen after the cosmic heartbreak they took full-force in 1986. It just convinced me that 2000 wasn't supposed to happen as it did. ;^)

""Sounds similar to the prosecutor going after Delay.""

Oh, so now you are going to pretend Tom Delay isn't a crook. Why do you want to look ridiculous????

TonyRoma- What's the matter- Can't you recognize that your own supporters have looked at this supposed issue and determined that it is dead in the water? You resort to name calling and abusiveness only because you have no logical, intelligent retort to this, do you? Your ignorance is willful. Maybe you should check NPR's website, and Mother Jones' website before you put your foot in your mouth as far as your friends in the MSM do on a daily basis. The only "discourse" you have had in this matter is your opinion, based upon the rantings of another drunk. Go smoke some more wacky backy and chill.

Some elaboration on "caging". Essentially what happens is that the republicans go through voter lists of highly democratic precincts and send out certified or registered letters to these areas, then mark for challenge anyone who's letter is returned because it wasn't signed for.

Here's why this is such a sleazy approach. The repubs send it out with a return address, listed as "Ohio Republican Party" or "Republican National Committee" or some such. I receive a lot of certified letters and such; when you aren't home you get a little slip of paper telling you that you need to be present to sign for the letter; if you can't be home, you have to go to the post office to pick it up or it will be returned in a few days.

Usually the slip tells you who's sending the letter. So, if it's me anyway, I'll go to the post office if it's the IRS, for example, or any one of my ex wife's attorneys or anyone else that could do me damage or otherwise should be taken seriously. If I get a certified letter from the republican party, I'm probably going to assume it's either fund raising or something like that and I'm not going to waste my time and effort to go pick it up - and it will be returned. Saves me a little gas to get to the PO and electricity to run the shredder.

Apparently a lot of other people think the same way.

So the repubs sent teams of people to key precincts to challenge voters on the lists that they had - which were based on returned, certified letters. You walk in to vote, check in with the nice old lady who has the book full of computer printouts and, as you sign in, some young republican guy in a red tie or a young republican girl with too much makeup and a red business jacket (not that I stereotype) says "I challenge that voter".

I am then denied the right to vote unless I can prove that, in fact, I currently live at this address. Driver's license won't do it. I need copies of my last 3 months utilities bills or something like that. I don't carry those in my pocket, usually.

So, if I demand my right to vote, I get to file a "provisional" ballot. Although I'd love to shove same ballot into several bodily orifices of the smug young Republican cultist, I instead vote with it and sign it and it's put in a pile of like ballots. If I can prove, later, that I have the right to vote and am properly registered, I can come down to town hall and have my provisional changed into a real ballot and then, if the election is close enough, it's counted like an absentee.

This is what happened to several hundred thousand people in Ohio and several other states. The plans to do this were well known in advance in Ohio, especially, as even the GOP nuts were claiming that they planned to challenge many voters.

Now, granted, if I lived in a republican area I would be less likely to live this scenario - unless, perhaps, my precinct makes party registrations available and the GOP people feel that they've adequately nailed the Dem areas or they want to raise the margins in the Repub areas.

Everything I'm describing here is well documented. Do some research on "Ohio provisional ballots" and you'll see. This topic is also covered in the Conyers investigation and other sources.

It was also probably enough to swing Ohio in '04, without even considering the other shenanigans.

Oh, and "caging" is illegal, by the way. I doubt they'll be prosecuted.

"Can't you recognize that your own supporters have looked at this supposed issue and determined that it is dead in the water?"

No, "our" supporters haven't determined that it's dead in the water. Some feel that it's not worth pursuing because the legal pursuit is impossible to win with the Repubs in charge of everything; some are in denial and don't dig too deeply into the facts and some do, in fact, think that there's a serious concern here.

Porker...

You're running on yesterday's news, not today's. This issue is resonating NOW, not with what you're referring to, and it doesn't matter, does it, if whatever you're referring to is WRONG? Isn't this the issue and not what any particular website says?

Again, did you bother to read the article and do you dispute the information its based on? Or because a left website says so, you base your conclusions soley on that? I don't. I weigh the information and make my own conclusions. Maybe you should try it instead of trying to squelch the debate that others are having while you remain ignorant of the facts at hand. No one cares what the misinformed think because their conclusions are irrelevant to facts, and unless you'd like to bring some to this debate, we're through.

Mr. High and mighty TonyRoma- I'll post as I choose, not as it pleases you. Your own supporters have debunked this theory and so reported. I'm just pointing out to you that fact. I guess you're too short-sighted to believe anything other than what supports your tinfoil hat theories. I read this article and several others. All the others say that they've looked at this matter, and that it's been looked at many times, and that what RFK Jr. is saying is just totally WRONG. Since I wasn't there, I cannot say what really happened, but I can say that, given the influence that we have with the internet, if there was REALLY proof of what you and RFK Jr. say is true, then the NPR and Mother Jones whould be all over it. So would the LATimes, and the New York Times. Not to mention CBS, NBC, and ABC. So, leave your abusiveness in your keyboard. I'll keep on posting as I choose.

""Particularly when you consider no residue of explosives were ever found."

"Wrong, Danforth. The FEMA report documents that their investigation of steel from the towers showed the exact chemical residue that thermite breaks steel down into"

Sheesh...sorry I missed that day on Drudge.

So what's the status of the investigation into this? Or is the same person looking into is as is looking into the strange case of Jeff Gannon?

BTW, whatever came of that...who gave him press credentials?

Never said they didn't but they did so while they were under the false impressions about the threat Saddam represented that Bush purposefully created. - Danni

Jeff's reply:

Take a gander at Clinton's assessment of Iraq in 1998 when he launched operation Desert Fox. Then look at Bush's assessments: virtually identical. Remember, from '98 to '02 weapons inspectors were not in Iraq. How much do you honestly believe the intel was going to change during that time with minimal eyes and ears in the trenches? Furthermore, do you truly believe that Saddam decided to scrap his weapons aspirations AFTER inspectors were removed? Do you think he would NEVER even consider attempting to take advantage of a lack of oversight between 1998 and 2004?

Posted by JeffJ at 2006-06-02 10:54 AM | Reply

Danni's classic follow up in 2 parts:

Jeff, Clinton was cognizant of the fact that invading and occupying Iraq would be a bad idea because he listened to George H Bush, unlike his moronic son.
There were lots of things we could have done short of invading. If we did invade though, remember the Powell Doctrine????
Clinton did not try to fight war on the cheap in Bosnia and our casualty rate reflected that fact. Clinton also did not push tax cuts while we were engaged in a war. I'm sorry, but the time for attempting to justify the decisions of this corrupt administration is over.

I wasn't justifying the decision; that's a position that you assigned to me because it apparently satisfied a preconceived notion on your part. My whole post was toward your original comment which I put in bold. The rest is you making up my position for me.

The rest of Danni's post:

Further attempts to justify or excuse what they have done make you look like the stubborn partisan that I think you have pretty much become.

Are you going by pot or kettle today? That statement is laughable as you are one of the most blatantly partisan persons on this blog.

Porker...

Who made you the arbiter of what are "my supporters"? Have I quoted anyone you mentioned? NO. Have you disputed one fact brought forth by this article? NO. You're free to do whatever you wish, my point to you is that this thread is full of debate and discourse, not sidetracking about sources that have no merit. Dude, all the MSM started picking up on this over the last 48 hours. Crawl out of your hole and see the light. I'm not saying what is or isn't the truth, but bringing up sources with no facts to back your contentions is not the way to change minds. Believe it or not, not all "liberal" truth's come from the sources you sight, but I'm sure you already know this, don't you?

Danforth,

Did you bother to reference the links and the reports I mentioned? Did I say there was an ongoing investigation? No I didn't, but I did post and link you to the scientific findings that indicated the existence of corrosive, explosive residue on WTC steel that was tested. This is what you said didn't exist, and it does, from the government's own mouthpiece, no less.

"No one cares what the misinformed think because their conclusions are irrelevant to facts, and unless you'd like to bring some to this debate, we're through."

My opinion's, my statement's. I have never purported to speak for the website and who can and cannot post. I was referring to our little back-and-forth. If you have points of contention about the facts or methodology reported in the article, then I'll happily debate them. The "we're through" comment referred to the uselessness of debating for the sake of debating. I would rather discuss the information, not the sources either for or disputing it.

PS: I'm all for e-voting and internet based elections. The homeless could vote in public libraries or anywhere they could gain access to the web.

Posted by tonyroma


Thank you for bringing that up. It's a great idea. Plus the fact we could all log on, check a spreadsheet on how everyone (in our district? county? state?) voted- completely coded of course- and see how it adds up. With a password-ss number maybe- we could each see our own vote on that spreadsheet and doublecheck that it was accurately counted toward the total.
A whole nation of semi-computer-geeky double-checkers and that vote would be squeekyclean.

So you know that'll never happen.

Wow. TonyRoma accused of not bringing facts to the debate.

Tony's one of the most reliable fact-getters here.

And I see only one rightie read the article so far. Par.

I'm glad he had the energy to deal with these little blind mice today.
Unfortunately, none are so deaf as those that will not hear...

Yeah, as Whitey said, digital signatures. Just don't let Diebold Corp. or any outfit like it be the verifying agency. The process should stand up under scrutiny. Diebold et al. have fallen completely apart when put under even cursory scrutiny. That's not an opinion or a conspiracy theory, folks, it's now accepted fact from coast to coast.

Fact: www.blackboxvoting.com has the whole story, if you care about honesty and integrity in 21st-century America. It's not a partisan thing, honesty and integrity. Honesty demands that the issue not be given the bum's rush. Or Swift Boated. This is important stuff. This is America. It needs to be gone through thoroughly, in public. Rolling Stone is doing that.

Problems with the article? Write to Rolling Stone. Refute it in another mainstream publication, with copious footnotes. Don't tell me the Repubs can't afford the cost of doing this. The truth should be the most provable thing in the world--whatever the truth may be here.

That's why they call them Bushbots.

The whole point is that this is OLD "news". It has been visited, revisited, and revisited like a Little Al recount, and found lacking. The only thing newsworthy about the Stoned article is that a Kennedy sobered up long enough to write it. Pitiful that you left-wing nutcases can't find ANYTHING to complain about but past events. You're so blind in your hatred for President Bush that you'd buy anything. Guess what? Both your high-powered, election stealing machines LOST, LOST, and then LOST BIGGER, in 2000 and in 2004. Hope lightning doesn't light up your tinfoil hats.

"wacky backy", Porker?

We call it "pot".

Gramps.

itsme-Which bankrupt socialist degenerate institution of lower learning did you go to?Still go to?

MSNBC? I did a telephone poll of their entire viewership. One of them said he didn't read the RFK article and the other said his mommy was too busy right now to explain it to him.
OK, OK, loco weed.

Like his yunkle ted , he too , would not make a pimple on his father's ass , he is a total moron , sheeple in action , brain-dead from the get-go .

Nothing the kennedys say anymore has any credibility , a family of assclowns .
Wanna be JFK jr . and the druggy jr. from the Mass. drunk .

Aren't you blaming the messenger here?

Talking about the Kennedys like they're drunks and druggies while there's plenty of evidence that your favorite president of all time was (is?) both of those things.

Talking about the terrible hatred against Bush while insulting the other side personally.

"Both your high-powered, election stealing machines LOST, LOST, and then LOST BIGGER, in 2000 and in 2004."

Porker- read the evidence- it clearly explains the loss. Geez- the way you gloat, you'd think bush won by a landslide. It was just a few points, and without the complicit corruption of the republican party, he would've lost.

Not whining about the past. Just getting the history accurate.

Interesting timing. I lived in suburb of Cleveland during 2000. The city is geographically split along the Cuyahoga river. Near east side comprised of low-income blacks.
East side is old money.
Near west side is low income Appalachians.
West side is new money.
Funny disparity in amount of voting machines in the four areas. Extra voting machines in more affluent East and West sides.
Very few in the poorer districts. Especially the near east side. Many blacks waited for hours to cast votes. Those that waited. Many did not vote.

Welcome to the Museum of Ad Hominems.

And its new wing, the Bum's Rush Center.

Repubs, you'll have to argue better than RFK Jr., then maybe you'll get a cover article with copious footnotes published in a large-circulation national magazine.

Hint: Ad Hominems and hasty, nasty, cheap-shot dismissals will not impress the managing editors.

If we're going to debate, could we adhere to the rules of, say, debating? Even here? Just keeping you honest, you seem to demand it from the rest of us.

Not that I think you can even grasp what it is I'm saying. Ummm, got ear plugs?