India is not to blame.

Corporate greed is.

"Corporate greed is."
Posted by JimmyWallback at 2006-05-30 12:14 PM | Reply

Call it greed if you wish, but the truth is, if companies don't remain competitive, they go under. Then everyone loses their jobs.
I don't think there are any easy answers in the modern economy.

"Outsourcing to save jobs".


Now I have heard everything.

Poor bastard doesn't even realize when he and his countrymen are being exploited. Compares his people to a machine that does a job "more efficiently". I don't think effiency enters the picture, its just about CHEAPER. And I'm sorry, but I don't think Dell computers are any cheaper with all their customer service outsourced to India, and I for damned sure don't think it's any more EFFICIENT when I have to call for tech support.
And the money saved lines the pockets of the corporate CEOs and stockholders, not the consumers. It'll all come home to roost one day, when Americans (the largest and richest consumer base of the company that typically outsources) have maxed out their credit cards and can't afford to buy anything. Then they'll actually have to lower prices.... just can't wait.

I've never blamed India... they need jobs too. But this corporate spin (and Bush loves it too) that outsourcing is good for America so we can compete in a global economy is crap. I've seen documentaries on the living conditions of these sweatshop textile workers in India... how a supposed Christian nation can put up with that is beyond me. And yes, I'm a hypocrite.... but at least I'm honest enough to point it out

Outsourcing is nothing new. Even slaves, thousands of years ago, were a form of outsourcing.

Cheap foreign labor doing jobs Egyptians don't want.

There are boatloads of easy answers in corporate america these days. Just need to hire the right consultants to find them.

CEO need's a raise? Hire a compensation consultant. I wonder just how many of these compensation consultants actually recommend lowering CEO compensation. Not many I guess.

But this corporate spin (and Bush loves it too) that outsourcing is good for America so we can compete in a global economy is crap.

Posted by Sholagar at 2006-05-30 12:25 PM | Reply

I just loved the press briefing Bush gave about "Protecting America's Manufacturing" in a wharehouse and they had to remark the backdrop of boxes behind Bush because they all said "Made in China".

Priceless. You can't make anything better than that up.

I wonder if we lowered Congress' salary to federal minimum wage with no health insurance or retirement plan just how many of our so called servants wouldn't want to do those jobs anymore.

Vernon is right on, we need to revive slavery so that a few will control the rest, and the slaves can be thankful for being controlled!

Bravo.

Cut taxes some more.

To hell with the middle class.

Personal responsibility forever.

"Call it greed if you wish, but the truth is, if companies don't remain competitive, they go under. Then everyone loses their jobs.
I don't think there are any easy answers in the modern economy."


Hogwash. The only thing remaining competitive are CEO salaries; if Home Depot CEO gets 154 million for 6 years work, then doggonit Lowes is going to one up them with 160 million for their CEO.

Walmarts making record profits, yet their rank and file employee doesn't make above poverty level wages, and end up on welfare WHILE still working for Walmart. Where do those profits go?? Have you see how rich that family is (Waltons)??? How can you justify something so obscene by saying "its to remain competitive"? But hey, outsourcing is a good thing, Indians and Indonesians making 12 cents an hour with no benefits and no job security is a GOOD thing, so we can buy our elastic waistband sweat pants for 10$ at Walmart.

The Onion had a great article the other day, how expectant mothers in China are given a 15minute break (unpaid) to have her child, and then its back on the assembly line (with child).

Outsourcing and our Gov't backing of it is a wholesale endorsement of slave labor. Its how big business gets around minimum wage laws and benefit requirements. It won't be long before even businesses in the U.S. have to cut benefits in order to "compete" (keep their CEO profits up).

"Call it greed if you wish, but the truth is, if companies don't remain competitive"

Define "competitive" then show us some examples. Then explain to us how a company in the black is not "competitive" since they are making money, (not losing it).
Fact is these companies were in the black AND profitable, (lane furniture company as an example) but by moving operations overseas they became MORE profitable. That's translates to greed in simple black and white terms, (something Bush can even comprehend).

After a very nice "give me a break" by John Stossel on how outsourcing is good for America, I wrote an email to ABC, on how it would be good for America and ABC if they fired Stossel and replaced him with a younger, fitter, more aggressive fellow from India to do his job. Paramjeet would surely do more work for less money, just an all around win/win situation.
They didn't get back to me.

Wait until corporate executives, human-resource personnel, etc discover that they can be outsourced to India too! Hmmm, what's good for the goose ...

Does anyone think India's targeting of specific industries (like Information-Technology) could be considered a form of "terrorism"? Maybe economic-terrorism? What do we do with terrorist nations?

There is something despicable about deliberately undermining another nations employment base whatever is it.

Being in the IT area myself, I am now seeing Indians that are here being undermined by other Indians in India.

Gotta love all these expert economists blogging on the Retort.

There are real and actual experts for both sides of the argument. What speaks loudest is the numbers. How many more people are living in poverty now than 10 years ago? How large is the middle class, and what is considered middle class these days?

"Vernon is right on, we need to revive slavery so that a few will control the rest, and the slaves can be thankful for being controlled!"

Vernon is a corporate shill. So what else is new?

Companies dont outsource to "remain competitive".

They outsource for two reasons:

1. because managers view outsourcing as some kind of magical thing which has no problems and saves all kinds of money. They are conveniently ignoring all the data which shows outsourcing actually costs MORE than having staff.

But that's how a lot of these worthless management people operate: they go with the latest trends in an effort to make it look like they are doing something. They outsource jobs, than in a few years they put together a plan to hire people on (and it's usually just some other dumb fuck who 'works' by telling consultants what to do).

2. Outsourcing gives a temporary illusion of doing good, because for a few quarters your payroll disappears (the lag time between severance and the outsourcing bill coming in).

The 'value' of a company is ultimately the people working there. So companies outsourcing are actually DEvaluing their companies.

And, from an investment point of view, when I hear companies are outsourcing jobs, that screams "sell" (or even short-sell, sometimes) to me. Outsourcing is a sign of weakness: it means the management doesn't know what it's doing, it means it's leadership is failing.

I've also seen Mexicans here undermined when their factory closes and moves to Mexico.
In CEO mentality, why pay a Mexican 6 bucks an hour here when you can pay a Mexican 1 dollar an hour in Mexico?
AND not worry about healthcare, AND not worry about the EPA, AND not worry about OSHA, etc, etc, etc.


The issue here is more trade deficits, balance, than just outsourcing. If there's balance, than the money sent to India comes back and that means American jobs and everyone wins.

But this situation between us and the 3rd world is unsustainable where we're hemoraging hundreds of billions of dollars each year that isn't comming back to the American economy.

Trade must be balanced.

"blaming India and other countries will not solve their problems"

This guy is arguing against a premise that does not exist. The only complaints I've heard about Indians when it comes to outsourcing to India has come from customers upset by undertrained customer service reps who can't speak English in a way that is decipherable to Americans.

"Kind of makes the whole American right/left thing seem sort of benign."

YEAH!
Now maybe you see why we conservatives have been trying to up the ante! You know, pit American against American on ideology, faith and fear. Soon by the grace of our republican god you liberals will be hiding in closets as the conservative police raid your homes and haul your families off to the "work centers".

Gotta stay "competitive" and the only way to do that is by abandoning our principle in favor of making more money!

Death to anyone who gets in the way of my profits so saith the lord.
Praise Jesus, Amen.

Kind of makes the whole American right/left thing seem sort of benign.

Posted by Biscuit at 2006-05-30 01:27 PM | Reply

To give away our technology and right of self defense in exchange for 57cents/hour labor improves quarterly profits at the long term expense of middle class America. On top of that East Indians and other foreigners, which the United States has its global market and military reach aimed at, get preferential admittance to American schools. All paid for by working Americans, who are the losers at every stage of this transition. The journalists are correct only in the sense that no one can turn back the clock.

There are real and actual experts for both sides of the argument. What speaks loudest is the numbers. How many more people are living in poverty now than 10 years ago? How large is the middle class, and what is considered middle class these days?

Posted by bigjohn_1972 at 2006-05-30 01:17 PM

John,
Are the 11-20 million illegal aliens included in your numbers? It would seem to me if you import unskilled, uneducated immigrants and put them on a payroll that is used in National statistics poverty would go up. Not even including the offspring of the immigrants.

As for the other hogwash being posted regarding the CEO salaries to the rank and file...
1.2 million: The number of Wal-Mart associates in the U.S. Any full- or part-time Wal-Mart employee, up to and including the CEO, is considered an "associate," in Wal-Mart parlance. Internationally, Wal-Mart employs an additional 330,000 associates.

If you were to give back the salary of the CEO and split that amongst the rank and file each one would recieve about $25.00. (30 million divided by 1.2 million)

How many jobs have these rank and file created?

JSG,

The 'value' of a company is ultimately the people working there. So companies outsourcing are actually DEvaluing their companies.

And, from an investment point of view, when I hear companies are outsourcing jobs, that screams "sell" (or even short-sell, sometimes) to me. Outsourcing is a sign of weakness: it means the management doesn't know what it's doing, it means it's leadership is failing.

It is too bad the neocon right just don't see this fact. They continue to look in short term profit never realizing that when the loss come in it will be far greater than if they didn't outsource in the first place.

A company is nothing without its' people.

How many jobs have these rank and file created?

Tell me, how many jobs did the CEO of Wally world create. Now, don't list the jobs that would have been created if he was not there.

Also remove all the subsidies walmart received to start up those new stores and last year alone walmart receive 1.2 billion dollars. So it would appear our government is creating the low shit jobs and guess what, the walmart execs CEO gets the reward.

Do try and misshape the reality again though, it was sort of fun.

Crass/moneywar, Are you saying that the jobs being created by companies have nothing to do with who is in charge?

Crassus,
Do you piss and moan at Alex Rodriguez making 250 million? How about Shaquille O'neal making 25 million a year? Let's talk about Hollywood and Tom Hanks making 20 million a film?

You watch the games and go to the movies with no regard to the money they make. But mention a CEO of a Company....

But this situation between us and the 3rd world is unsustainable where we're hemoraging hundreds of billions of dollars each year that isn't comming back to the American economy.

Trade must be balanced.

Posted by Norm_ at 2006-05-30 01:26 PM | Reply

But it is Norm. We send them all our money and they send us cheap plastic crap or customer service that you cannot understand.

Eberly/rightisright/paleocon,

Are you saying that the jobs being created by companies have nothing to do with who is in charge?

I said nothing of the sort but if you read my post instead of trying to make a crappy assertion I might show a little more respect for you.

For all the people who scream about the loss of manufacturing jobs in the country, I wonder how many have actually worked them? I worked on an assembly line making concrete lintles--absolutely the worst job I've ever had in my life. Twice a month I had to clean out the cement mixers with big jackhammers; hard to believe when you look at me now, but I was the smallest guy on the crew then, so it fell on me to get up into the cone. Could not WAIT to get a job in the service economy.

Later, the company completely automated and laid off everyone. For a couple of years I kept track of a few of the guys I worked with. Two of them opened a lawn maintenance business together, another became a pool contractor. One of the others opened his own concrete supply place. How many of you believe that we all would have been better off working there? How many of you believe that women were all better off working in crowded telephone centers for AT&T, before they went to a computerized routing system and the Bells were the number one employer of women in the world?

I said nothing of the sort but if you read my post instead of trying to make a crappy assertion I might show a little more respect for you.

Posted by Crassus


Fine Moneywar, I will answer your question. Millions and millions of jobs have been created by the CEO of Wal-mart.

A company is nothing without its' people.

Posted by Crassus at 2006-05-30 02:07 PM | Reply

That is because the corporatists view employees as a commodity to exploited at the lowest cost.

Look at the Delphi situation... they declare bankruptcy and ask the employees to take a 2/3 pay cut. How many of you would work for 1/3 of what you made yesterday without making a stink?

Then Delphi asks the bankruptcy trustee to approve a multi million dollar bonus package for management.

Their used to be a time when management and labor were considered to be partners in business. Now management and government are partners in the screwing over of the middle class, you know the "mythical" little guy.

Crispee,

Your sports pay idea is quite wrong you see. I like that because now your saying that the actual laborers should be getting paid millions while the CEO does make as much.

Keep that kind of thinking up, it ruins the whole idea of what your trying to debate as good.

Do try one more time to justify the idea of CEO's working for the betterment of America though.

Later, the company completely automated and laid off everyone. For a couple of years I kept track of a few of the guys I worked with. Two of them opened a lawn maintenance business together, another became a pool contractor. One of the others opened his own concrete supply place. How many of you believe that we all would have been better off working there? How many of you believe that women were all better off working in crowded telephone centers for AT&T, before they went to a computerized routing system and the Bells were the number one employer of women in the world?

Posted by rightisright


Don't confuse this with commonsense RIR. Some of these guys end up like bill O'reilly and sit around all day and bitch about it and blame it all on "corporate shills"

How many jobs have these rank and file created?


Posted by crispee_oc at 2006-05-30 02:06 PM | Reply

Without the associates there is no Wal Mart and no huge salary package for the CEO.

Eberly/rightisright/paleocon,

I will answer your question. Millions and millions of jobs have been created by the CEO of Wal-mart.

Like I said, you want me to show you some respect, show me some respect.

Delusional thinking earns you none.

Crass,

I live for your respect. Crispee took the income of a CEO and spread it out over all rank and file employees and it came out to $25.

care to comment on that?

Later, the company completely automated and laid off everyone. For a couple of years I kept track of a few of the guys I worked with. Two of them opened a lawn maintenance business together, another became a pool contractor. One of the others opened his own concrete supply place. How many of you believe that we all would have been better off working there? How many of you believe that women were all better off working in crowded telephone centers for AT&T, before they went to a computerized routing system and the Bells were the number one employer of women in the world?

Posted by rightisright

Don't confuse this with commonsense RIR. Some of these guys end up like bill O'reilly and sit around all day and bitch about it and blame it all on "corporate shills"

Posted by eberly at 2006-05-30 02:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

How pathetic is this individual, answering his own altered identity.

Takes a real flash in the pants at this, next we will see him answering his third ID of paleocon.

Crispee,

Your sports pay idea is quite wrong you see. I like that because now your saying that the actual laborers should be getting paid millions while the CEO does make as much.

Posted by Crassus at 2006-05-30 02:41 PM

Crassus,
You have no clue what I am saying. Your pathetic arguement has no worth outside Drudge. I am saying the amount the CEO makes has to do with the overall profit of the Company they represent. If the Company expands they hire more workers.

You want to compare a low skilled worker to an educated proven CEO?

How pathetic is this individual, answering his own altered identity.

Takes a real flash in the pants at this, next we will see him answering his third ID of paleocon.

Posted by Crassus


Hits home doesn't it Moneywar?

Gotta go, promise to get back to this later.

Do try one more time to justify the idea of CEO's working for the betterment of America though.

Posted by Crassus

* * * *

Not the CEO's job to work "for the betterment of America." Their job is to work for the betterment of the owners of the company. The owners, which are made up of thousands of individuals, small business owners, widows, pension plans, mutual funds, 401k's, and a whole lot of liberals and conservatives alike, demand a better return on their money than other investments. Simple as that.

You want to compare a low skilled worker to an educated proven CEO?

So are you suggesting your not with emphasis an unskilled labor? How did you rceive this classification?

CEO no more contribute to the company grouth than the unskilled labor. In fact, the unskilled labor is the reason the company grows. And you omit the idea that this supposed unskilled labor is uneducated.

The difference between the top and bottom is less to do with education and more to do with information availability.

RiR,
Funny how Crassus only sees the little box.Instead of the big picture. How many millions of pensions are invested in these so called evil American corporations? If you were invested in any of the portflios, wouldn't you want the best and brightest running the Company?

Yet Crassus thinks a CEO is as valuable to a Company as the rank and file.

Rightisright,

Gotta go, promise to get back to this later.

Posted by eberly at 2006-05-30 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Seems you did not have to go after all, HR Block kind of slow these days? Or are you worried about your house from posting as Paleocon?

"You want to compare a low skilled worker to an educated proven CEO?"

You mean like one that get's fired, say Carly Fiorina, and gets a 20 million dollar going away present?

Crispee,

Funny how Crassus only sees the little box.Instead of the big picture.

Interesting, this big picture you see and the direction we are heading is good by your terms.

Tell me if we continue on this great path of labor force where will America be sitting?

RisR-

Nice anecdote, but the service industry does nothing in a macroeconomic sense except move money around, unless your economy is based upon tourism.

The fact of the matter is America has more money leaving the country than it has coming in. The Fundies falsely assume, just like they did in the civil war, that the world's preferece on one of their resources will force them to put up with anything they do.

In the Civil War, the Confederates thought the world would be on their side in order to keep getting cheap cotton. Obviously they were wrong.

Now, the Fundies think the world will always support America in order to rely on the US dollar. The only problem is that the Fundies are forced to devalue the dollar to entice foreign countries to continue buying into their failing economy. At some point, it's going to crash, and we will all be paying heavily for their failed leadership... interestingly, these Republifundie leaders will profit heavily by their failure, so it isnt failure so much as it is willful destruction.

Not the CEO's job to work "for the betterment of America."

I knew you would say something like this. So what you are saying is no one should be thinking about the betterment of America but should be thinking about earning more profit.

Yep, that will truely make this country strong, the only thing wrong is who is getting the money and who is not.

Bill O,

Under Hewlett-Packard's severance agreement, Carly Fiorina received US$14 million in cash, which was 2.5 times her base salary and target bonus. HP also paid her US$5.88 million under its 2003-2004 long-term performance cash program, and US$1.5 million, which was the pro-rated amount of her awards under the 2004-2005 program. Her total severance package was estimated to total US$42 million. (Source: [1], 14 February 2005)

HP is a technology solutions provider to consumers, businesses and institutions globally. The company's offerings span IT infrastructure, global services, business and home computing, and imaging and printing. For the four fiscal quarters ended Oct. 31, 2005, HP revenue totaled $86.7 billion. More information about HP (NYSE, Nasdaq: HPQ) is available at www.hp.com.

Seems to me she earned the compensation package. If you were to give that money to the employees of HP they would have received about $278.00 each.

Crispee, you're full of it.

The only problem is that the Fundies are forced to devalue the dollar to entice foreign countries to continue buying into their failing economy.

* * * *

You've got that backwards. A falling dollar HURTS companies that export goods here, because it makes their product more expensive. Plus, why would a foreign country buy into a failing economy with a declining currency? To see their investments go bad?

Only one reason foreign investors buy US bonds, US factories, US stocks--they will see a better return on their money here, than elsewhere. How would you have liked to have owned a big position in Venezuelan oil companies, just before Chavez stole it all? How about a big investment in Nigeria, before the government took it all away? Why not load up on Brazilian companies, just before the government devalued and you were left with pennies on the dollar?

Tell me an example where an average american worker gets fired, and walks away with millions of severance pay.

Corporate shills are out on force on this thread.

So what you are saying is no one should be thinking about the betterment of America but should be thinking about earning more profit.

* * *

Didn't say that. The job of a CEO is to make the owners happy with the returns on their investment. When the company makes money, it pays taxes. It is able to provide a good living for their employees. It is able to contribute to their communities. It is providing a valuable service to their customers.

When a company is NOT making money, none of those things are happening. And the difference between a company that is profitable and one that is not has a whole lot less to do with the schmos turing a screwdriver on an assembly line, and a whole lot to do with the people who are planning strategy, leveraging their banking relationships, finding new customers, innovating, and pushing their company forward. If you could go back in time, and you had $100,000 to take back to 1980, would you give it to Bill Gates or Michael Dell--proven geniuses at maximizing wealth? Or would you buy a whole lot of Commodore or Atari?

The only difference were the CEO's--you'd get rich going one way, and go broke doing the other.

Crispee, you're full of it.

Posted by Bill_OReilly at 2006-05-30 03:17 PM

I am full of it "Common Sense"

Corporate shills are out on force on this thread.

* * *

So are the socialists.

Only one reason foreign investors buy US bonds, US factories, US stocks--they will see a better return on their money here, than elsewhere.

Now you the shill, the only thing they have to trade with is U.S. dollars.

You don't think we are threatening Iran because of nukular quest do you. Iran is threatening to move oil selling from US dollars to Euros.

The simple fact that these countries are taking the U.S. business' out of their country's pictures shows you lack of global economic reality. They are trying to get off the U.S. currency trade because they can only come to the US.

So are the socialists.

And the facists, communists, dictatorships, but the remaining fact is that the neocon shills still don't understand what the long term effect of their support in this downing of America will do.

Didn't say that. The job of a CEO is to make the owners happy with the returns on their investment. When the company makes money, it pays taxes. It is able to provide a good living for their employees. It is able to contribute to their communities. It is providing a valuable service to their customers.

Tell me how Walmart is doing this? Tell me how Levi's is doing this?

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about just shilling the corporate line bull shit to protect you investment ass. You investers are the single most corrupt, downing, unpatriotic American in this country. The simple fact is you could careless about America, just that you are able to make money off of others and if they lose their job, so what, I still get my money.

Your the real loser.

You don't think we are threatening Iran because of nukular quest do you. Iran is threatening to move oil selling from US dollars to Euros.


* * * *

LOL. Well, in that case, why are the Europeans threatening Iran? Are they stupid? Or do you suppose there might be more to the story whether or not the Iranians cash their checks in Frankfurt or in New York?
Funny. Let the Iranians accept the euros. So what? Don't you think it's funny that Norway and the Netherlands price their oil in dollars, and not euros? Hmmmm. Maybe they know something you don't.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about just shilling the corporate line bull shit to protect you investment ass. You investers are the single most corrupt, downing, unpatriotic American in this country. The simple fact is you could careless about America, just that you are able to make money off of others and if they lose their job, so what, I still get my money.

Your the real loser.

Posted by Crassus at 2006-05-30 03:33 PM

That has to be the most ignorant posting I have read on Drudge.

Crassus is saying if you work hard and put in the hours and better yourself you are unpatriotic? This guy has got to be a socialist at heart or a fool.

LOL. Well, in that case, why are the Europeans threatening Iran?

So you think the european market sould survive the fall of the U.S.'s?

Your economic globalism is lacking.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about just shilling the corporate line bull shit to protect you investment ass. You investers are the single most corrupt, downing, unpatriotic American in this country. The simple fact is you could careless about America, just that you are able to make money off of others and if they lose their job, so what, I still get my money.

Your the real loser.


* * * *

LOL, again. Good luck getting a factory built without investors, retard. Good luck finding a bank to loan you money, without investors in the bank allowing that to be possible. Good luck finding a poor person to give you a job.

Investors are optimists, and believe that tomorrow will be better today. That's why we INVEST money, rather than spend it now. We're not pessimists like you, always whining about this or that, promising doom and gloom. If you're right and I'm wrong, all you have to lose is your sorry job; I have at risk much, much more. So I ask you, who is more interested in the future of America? You, a pathetic loser who hates everything that makes money? Or me?

And BTW, how do you invest? Do you look for companies that suck? Whose management is incompetent? Or do you try to do better than that? And does that make YOU an un-American bastard? LOL. Do yourselves a favor--plenty of rich liberals around, who have a lot of interesting things to say. Read up on those guys, then come back. The discussions here will be more interesting then.

Crassus is saying if you work hard and put in the hours and better yourself you are unpatriotic?

Your saying your working hard? Well, all those supposed unskilled workers were doing what.....posting on drudge!

LOL, again. Good luck getting a factory built without investors, retard.

I don't see alot of factories being built here in America for all the money the corporations are pulling in.

What? your delusional neoclassical ideals are not turning out in reality. Why is that?

Wonder how those factories in India, new ones popping up everyday, and in China, and in indonesia, and in malaysia, etc..... but it is the U.S. corporations that are building them.

yep! Your surely showing the patriotism for America and its people.

Crass,
You are in the dream world. You think these CEO's woke up and became leaders of Corporations?.

You refuse to acknowledge the hours of work they put in, where they started, how much education they went through, the sacrifices they might have made to move up the corporate ladder. Instead you spew hate because they are successful. Why is that?

Investors are optimists, and believe that tomorrow will be better today. That's why we INVEST money, rather than spend it now.

Now this statement has to be the most delusional and dumbest of them all.

Investing money in India, china, and the likes is real optimism at its finest. I don't know about you but last time I looked we are spending more than we are making.

Marcus Licinius Crassus Dives (Latin: MLICINIVSPFPNCRASSVS) (ca. 115 BC53 BC) was a Roman general and politician who suppressed the slave revolt led by Spartacus and entered into a secret pact, known as the First Triumvirate, with Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus and Gaius Julius Caesar. One of the richest men of the era, he was killed after a defeat at Carrhae.

You don't live up to your name do you Crassus?

Crispee,

You refuse to acknowledge the hours of work they put in, where they started, how much education they went through, the sacrifices they might have made to move up the corporate ladder.

You act as though no one else has done any sacrifices. Well, I would say there are millions of Americans who are sacrificing today for your corporate shills to gain there money and in particular at the hands of the very Americans who are sacrificing.

Are you daft? United, Enron ring any kind of picture for ya.

You don't live up to your name do you Crassus?

He was the 3rd richest in Rome. Seems kind of poetic doesn't it.

Crass,
I am the antonym of "daft". Thank you very much.

don't see alot of factories being built here in America for all the money the corporations are pulling in.

* * * *

Of course you don't. Pessimists don't see anything like that.

Or maybe you just live in a depressed area, which isn't seeing any new factories and businesses. Come to Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Georgia, North Florida, Texas. The factories, the feeder plants--a factory that was going to the Montgomery area declared they would have to move, because the new Hyundai, Budweiser, and Coca-Cola plants there have snapped up all the available work force. Try heading over to Mississippi, where Nissan builds cars that are 100% American made, and dozens of communities have sprung up around them, with high-paying jobs of their own.

Or, don't do those things, stick your money in a mattress for when doomsday comes, and learn what you can from fellow socialists on the Drudge Retort. Not exactly a recipe for a prosperous future, but free country and all that.

"Well, in that case, why are the Europeans threatening Iran? Are they stupid? Or do you suppose there might be more to the story whether or not the Iranians cash their checks in Frankfurt or in New York?"

BP developed the first Iranian oil fields prior to WW2. The civilian Iranian government nationalized them after WW2 when they realized BP was getting rich off their "investment" but Iran wasn't getting much from the deal. Then BP successfully lobbied their government (with help from Eisenhower and the US CIA) to stage a coup d'etat and make the Shah the top dog, kept in power for decades with his own secret police also sponsored by us and the British. Then Gerald Ford (with his chief of staff, Donald Rumsfeld and Cheney/Wolfowitz) arranged to start up an Iranian nuclear program in 1975, including plutonium enrichment for weapons use after Ford was successfully lobbied for the program by Westinghouse and GE because they had multi-million dollar deals going with the Shah. Then the Iranians kicked out the Shah and now the theocrats have control of the nuclear programs that we may have to nuke to stop them from nuking us first.

So, yeah. There's more to the story. And the question should be more, "are we stupid?"

Bernie Ebbers.
Richard Scrushy.
Denny Kozlowski.
Andy Fastow.
Kenny Boy Lay.
Jeff Skilling.
Martin Grass.

And ... SANJAY KUMAR.

And the question should be more, "are we stupid?"

* * *

Or maybe it should be, are the Iranians stupid? We dropped a bomb on Hiroshima in 1945--that's 61 years ago. If they've had "control of the nuclear programs" since 1975, with equipment put there by Westinghouse and GE no less, why haven't they been able to do much except make some whirly thingies in 31 years?

Geniuses, those Iranians.

RIR,

Moneywar and Bill O are just guys who have fallen victim to idea that corporations are bad because people are affected by economic reality.

They choose to cite Enron, Worldcom and other companies who obviously have some issues with ethics and use them as a basis for their argument. That proves how un-objective they really are and that they can't be reasoned with.

The truth is that I personally work with many manufacturing companies whose plants are located right here in the USA. they are growing and they are hiring more people all the time.

It is really sad to see such miserble and angry people who never have anything positive to say.

True enough.

In an effort to attract a new Nissan factory, Mississippi severely abused its eminent domain powers.

"In 2000, Mississippi went hog wild in outbidding neighboring states for the Nissan factory by offering a fat package of close to $300 million in subsidies and tax breaks. The deal included $80 million from the state to train Nissan's new workers. Also included was a pledge to "quick-take" the property of three families and give it to Nissan so it could build a parking lot and access road for the factory."

Source: Wall St. Journal, Jan 06, 2002

Yep! Rightisright,

Nissan used its money to build this factory, it gained profits and used government subsidies to build the factory and a few other questionable tac tics to build the factory.

Not what I would call your investment practice of reality you keep spouting about.

I'd argue in favor of a little "balance".

Corporations/shareholders have a right to expect a return on their investment (cash) that's proportional to their risk. Working stiffs have a right to expect fair compensation for their investment (labor), compensation better than a Pullman town.

It's whether you think you and your neighbor are better off living in "Bedford Falls" or "Pottersville". We're tilting toward Pottersville, I prefer the Bedford Falls life.

Bush has been bringing "Enron-style accounting practices" to the US government since 2001.

If there is any justice in the world, Bush and his entire crime family will be occupying the same prison wing as Lay and Skilling, all for the rest of their lives.

Crass/moneywar, who threw you out on your ass? Obviously somebody did.

The Jackson plants for Nissan export 21,000 vehicles overseas. Here is a company, in the United States, that is thriving while sending vehicles to China. It sold over 340,000 cars and SUV's last year.

So what's the problem again? That MS spent some money to attract the plant?

Matter of fact, what's your problem with everything? Have you ever had a good day?

It's whether you think you and your neighbor are better off living in "Bedford Falls" or "Pottersville". We're tilting toward Pottersville, I prefer the Bedford Falls life.


* * * *
Maybe you should move. Sounds like you don't have a very nice place.

Eberly/rightisright/paleocon,

who threw you out on your ass? Obviously somebody did

Sorry, I am a manager of a manufacturing plant I just think long term about this country not short term profit for very few individuals.

One who claims to be patriotic is sure short sighted in this respect.

The truth is that I personally work with many manufacturing companies whose plants are located right here in the USA. they are growing and they are hiring more people all the time.

Is this right, well tell me the facts about these great manufacturing companies. If what you spouting is true why does the facts say the manfacturing is declining at alarming rates, not decreasing like you posting suggests.

Come on now, get with it, you seem to be in the know that manufacturing in this country is on the rise lets see some facts not conjecture, hyperbole, and solipsisms.

You have little understanding as to manufacturing, and the actual processes.
Cars for example, rotors? break pads? pistons? rings? bushings? where are they manufactured, at one time they were done here in the U.S.

You sit around here and you spin your little webs and you think the whole world revolves around you and your money. Well, it doesn't, Mr. RiR. In the whole vast configuration of things, I'd say you were nothing but a scurvy little spider.

The Jackson plants for Nissan export 21,000 vehicles overseas. Here is a company, in the United States, that is thriving while sending vehicles to China. It sold over 340,000 cars and SUV's last year.

What do you fucking know about the plant, not very much. Your statement makes it sound like this plant is global when in fact the very existance of the plant is not for foriegn trade but to just build cars for the US and only the US.

If your going to tell a story, get the facts correct and not fabricate an omittance like reality.

You act as if this is nation wide because of one plant put in mississippi never even considering how many other manufacturing plants have left this country.

You can try and put spin to my wanting America people stronger to your wanting few rich and corporate elites stronger all you want, but mark my words, you will get it in the end. And what you get I can assure you, through history, you will not like it.

"Sorry, I am a manager of a manufacturing plant I just think long term about this country not short term profit for very few individuals"


You aren't able to admit to obviously being Moneywar and you expect me to believe that crap! You should be sorry.


Money, I'm only telling how my life works in reality, not cutting and pasting articles. I know we are shipping jobs overseas. I know pain accompanies that process.

You have experienced that pain obviously Money.

"Look at you. You used to be so cocky, Mr. Biscuit. You claimed you were going to go out and conquer the world. You once called me "a warped, frustrated, old man!" Who are you but a warped, frustrated young man, crawling in here on your hands and knees begging for help. No securities, no stocks, no bonds. Nothin' but a miserable little $500 equity in a life insurance policy. You're worth more dead than alive."

Posted by rightisright

Fact is manufacturing output in the United States is at record levels. What is happening is that factories are more efficient than ever. The percentage of Americans working in manufacturing is down by 2/3 since World War 2, but industrial output is up over 11 times during the same period.


This isn't unique to the US. Germany, Japan, Britain, and the Netherlands have all seen similar figures. And, China's got plenty of problems too: they've lost over 15 million jobs since 1995 in manufacturing as THEY have become more efficient producers.

What do you fucking know about the plant, not very much. Your statement makes it sound like this plant is global when in fact the very existance of the plant is not for foriegn trade but to just build cars for the US and only the US.

* * * * *

You're so funny. I happen to be in the plant three times a quarter, handling pensions.

It does NOT build cars for the US only--you made that up. You have to stop doing that, because soon enough you'll have to change your username again.

That plant exported over 20,000 vehicles abroad last year. Your ignorance of that fact, and so many others, doesn't change it. They are shipping cars to China, from right down here in Mississippi.

Have you ever sold anything in China? No--but you buy all your cheap stuff from there, then come on here and bitch about it. Then when somebody does, you say, no--he doesn't really. You're really pretty dumb.

Eberly is Rightisright is Paleocon,

I'm only telling how my life works in reality, not cutting and pasting articles. I know we are shipping jobs overseas. I know pain accompanies that process.

You have experienced that pain obviously

Yes, ever layoff employees knowing that the job is going to be done by a foriegn country. Knowing that the company invested, built and transfered all the skill, knowledge, and actual technical skill to the foriegn country to undermine the labor here and than calls them unskilled.

Your little solipsism is nothing to the reality of what is going on in this nation. And the simple fact that you think what is going on in your little neck of the world is the same country wide tells wonders about educational prowess. Your a smart guy, I know this to be true but how you can sit back and watch the downing of the American people for the short term gain of the corporation shocks me.

Your shooting from the hip hoping we will over come the short fall is so Bushite and error proned that is rearing its ugly head every day. How is it you don't see this.

"how you can sit back and watch the downing of the American people for the short term gain of the corporation shocks me"



It isn't short term gain for one - but rather long term gain and necessary for survivability. What is so shocking about that? This has been debated to death here and we come back to the same place. What you call "corporate gain" I call necessary for survivability.

the company you work for has to do this. Do you have a better idea? I'm sure the owners of the company you work for would like to hear it.

It does NOT build cars for the US only--you made that up. You have to stop doing that, because soon enough you'll have to change your username again.

Ghosn always thought Nissan's future depended on continuously increasing its U.S. market share. To do that, the company needed to make cars Americans wanted, like full-size pickups and SUVs. Incredibly, Nissan didn't offer either back then. In 2000, Ghosn launched a catch-up program to create the vehicles. Because they would be designed for Americans and sold only in the United States, he decided against making them in Japan.

I call necessary for survivability.

Who's suvivability and at what expense.

It about the future, and you think these corpoarations are looking into our future say 30 years from now.

Come on, you see the sham of this future and continue to support its short term gain.

I am all for corporate growth and profit but with respect to all of our society of America not just corporate America.

We are losing our industrial power base, it is evident every day, the loss in education, the rise in poverty, the loss in wage, and it will not get better but will get worse.

How far must it go before YOU say oops! I may have miss judged and we could be in trouble now as a nation?

Come on, you see the sham of this future and continue to support its short term gain.

Posted by Crassus


What short term? It is all long term. You can like it or not but it isn't short term.

Which jobs do you want us to bring back?

$363 million divided by 2000 jobs (neglecting the "host" of suppliers) is $181,500 per new Nissan employee. What a deal.

What short term? It is all long term. You can like it or not but it isn't short term.

Which jobs do you want us to bring back?

Conjecture hyperbole at best here. You can say all you want it is about long term but the fact of the matter you have nothing nothing what so ever to back up your assertion.

It is not about bringing back jobs, that is too late I am afraid, it is about not losing anymore.

You say it is long term, tell me how you think this is long term other than saying it is about long term.

Tell me how a nation of sales associates is long term thinking I am all ears.

Biscuit,

$363 million divided by 2000 jobs (neglecting the "host" of suppliers) is $181,500 per new Nissan employee. What a deal.

They will never ever in their life time understand what you are showing them.

He understands. As long as the residents of Pottersville don't get it, Mr. Potter is getting rich.

I just accept that those who have a problem with CEO salaries have bought into the whole 'class envy' rhetoric(sp?) of the far left. It's easy to hate someone who has something you havn't - and that's been exploited well over the years. I'm not rich (should have applied myself and finished that 4th years of college), but I accept that I'm where I am in life because I'm responsible for me. If I want a better job, more money I don't whine, I either get more education, take on increased responsibilities, etc.

Just for the record - if you took the millions from the CEO it wouldn't automatically go to employees [they're paid the going wage for the jobs they accepted], rather it would go to the stockholders as either increased value of their stock, or dividends, etc.

I notice how Eberly when asked to define his rhetoric limps away with narry a word.

"outsourcing"....I wonder what the buzz word will be when General Motors breaks its union and replaces them with 'guest workers". Is that, technically, 'in-sourcing'?

BTW, GM has already said this...it's not some 'liberal' thing. It's a 'jobs' thing.

The whole "they're doing jobs Americans won't do" is just the catch phrase to get the bill passed. Wait until you start seeing all the "jobs americans don't want to do".....like building your american-made car...here in America...but not by Americans.

I can only imagine the other industries that will soon follow.

RiR,
You are trying to deal with someone who claims Investors are the most corrupt, and unpatriotic Americans.

He believes job security is more important than advancing technology. Last time I looked machines didn't have sick days, didn't have drug or drinking problems, didn't need a lunch break, didn't need health or unemployment insurance.Didn't choose not to advance themselves or change with the times
Didn't waste Company time blogging on Drudge.

Except for a couple of things. First of all, there are over 5,000 supplier jobs, from Meridian to Forest to Hattiesburg.

Second, the plant cost $1.4 billion--that's over a billion that went to MS contracting companies.

Third, the average line wage at Nissan is over $13. The average manufacturing wage in MS is less than $7 an hour--almost twice as much.

Fourth, the average engineer at Nissan makes over $70,000, and there are 3 engineers for every 10 line workers.

Fifth, nearly 60% of the employees at the plant are black.

The plant has been great for the MS economy, for blacks, for manufacturing workers, for customers, for Nissan, and for America. Takes an absolute moron to argue otherwise.

notice how Eberly when asked to define his rhetoric limps away with narry a word.

Posted by Crassus


I Have a family and a job. I'll bet you have neither. Wonder why...could it be because you have the touch of a rapist and the communication skills of a 4-year old?

Long term is long term Moneywar!! I didn't say it is a long term you agree with. I also didn't say there were any plans to bring jobs back.

BTW if you can't think of which jobs to bring back then you have no business talking about which jobs to keep here.

Third, the average line wage at Nissan is over $13. The average manufacturing wage in MS is less than $7 an hour--almost twice as much.

MS sucks for pay. 13 bucks an hour wont even get you a run down shack these days.

He believes job security is more important than advancing technology. Last time I looked machines didn't have sick days, didn't have drug or drinking problems, didn't need a lunch break, didn't need health or unemployment insurance.Didn't choose not to advance themselves or change with the times
Didn't waste Company time blogging on Drudge.

Posted by crispee_oc


NO shit Crispee! The left spends ALL day here piss and moaning about their lot in life and how they have been screwed. If they spent half of that time actually accomplishing something instead swimming in a river of their own piss then perhaps they might not be so miserable.

MS sucks for pay. 13 bucks an hour wont even get you a run down shack these days.

Posted by jackass

* * * * *

Actually the cost of living there is pretty low. You can still buy a house for under $65,000. You missed the point, though--which is that Nissan brought wages up.

RIR,

Mississippi's exports have increased steadily in the past three years. Largely helped by Nissan vehicles, electrical circuitry, machinery and wood pulp, last year's export revenue hit its highest figure ever, according to the Mississippi Development Authority.

2001 -- $3.55 billion

2002 -- $3 billion

2003 -- $2.55 billion

2004 -- $3.2 billion

2005 --$4 billion

Source: Mississippi Development Authority

Nissan spokeswoman Julie Lawless said the company will look to keep selling in its overseas markets this year.

"I think our performance shows it's a growing segment for us. It's part of a long-term plan," she said.

The state's exports have been in an upswing since 2003 when the Nissan plant opened. Statewide, the Mississippi Development Authority charted a 26 percent increase in the value of 2005 exports over 2004.

Adam Murray, the MDA's international trade specialist for Europe, Africa and the Middle East, said although Mississippi gets no sales tax from exports, there are other benefits.

"It does mean more sales for the companies. And there's a direct correlation between the number of sales to the number of jobs a company can offer," he said.

A special is on CNN right now - 7 p.m. west coast time -- called "Baghdad ER" about how our troops are treated and taken care of in the ER rooms when they are injured in Iraq. Not for the squeemish but interesting.

California taxes everything.

RIR,

Actually the cost of living there is pretty low. You can still buy a house for under $65,000. You missed the point, though--which is that Nissan brought wages up.

I am in an agreement with you here, this is a good thing. I have no problems with companies moving from high priced labor in the U.S. to lower priced labor areas in the U.S. It is forcing the U.S. labor to compete with each other.

To force the U.S. labor to compete with India and China is another ball game, I think you know this.

And this is only a rare single factory opening, it does not off set the amount of factories that have left.

LOL. So? The people are still paid to make the cars!!! The employees pay taxes on their INCOME!!! Is your understanding of finance that LIMITED?

Here is Nissan: they are saying, we have markets all over the world. We can BUILD CARS anywhere in the world. But they have chosen an AMERICAN PLANT to supply CHINA!! And the MIDDLE EAST! WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?!?!?!?!?!

Still waiting to hear about your assignment in Mogadishu. When were you there, what was your unit, and what was your MOS?

Wow, and this does what for the state:


Nissan spokeswoman Julie Lawless said the company will look to keep selling in its overseas markets this year.

"I think our performance shows it's a growing segment for us. It's part of a long-term plan," she said.

The state's exports have been in an upswing since 2003 when the Nissan plant opened. Statewide, the Mississippi Development Authority charted a 26 percent increase in the value of 2005 exports over 2004.

Adam Murray, the MDA's international trade specialist for Europe, Africa and the Middle East, said although Mississippi gets no sales tax from exports, there are other benefits.

"It does mean more sales for the companies. And there's a direct correlation between the number of sales to the number of jobs a company can offer," he said.


Posted by Crassus




WTF IS YOUR POINT MONEYWAR??!!

Eb,
I would love to see all these rich liberals get together and build a company. They can offer free health care, union wages, time off for protests, time off for family leave, pay for drug and alcohol rehab and the 100 other workers right they whine about.

Think they could turn a profit???

And this is only a rare single factory opening, it does not off set the amount of factories that have left.

Posted by Crassus

* * * *

Negative.

In the past few years, we have opened BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, and Hyundai plants, all in the Deep South, turning out over a million vehicles a year.

Eberly,

I Have a family and a job. I'll bet you have neither. Wonder why...could it be because you have the touch of a rapist and the communication skills of a 4-year old?

Long term is long term Moneywar!! I didn't say it is a long term you agree with. I also didn't say there were any plans to bring jobs back.

BTW if you can't think of which jobs to bring back then you have no business talking about which jobs to keep here.

Eb,
I would love to see all these rich liberals get together and build a company. They can offer free health care, union wages, time off for protests, time off for family leave, pay for drug and alcohol rehab and the 100 other workers right they whine about.

Think they could turn a profit???

Posted by crispee_oc

* * * * *

LMAO. No. And they would be back, complaining again about the "investor class", because nobody wanted to loan them money.

Think they could turn a profit???

Posted by crispee_oc


Well, if they managed to do that (no way) then they deserve to be in the highest tax bracket possible (rich bastard robber barons). How do you suppose they would feel about that?

RiR,

I am talking country wide, and including all your factory openings in the deep south the net effect is still negative and increasing to the negative.

Yes, the deep south is probably going to be a big migration area in the near future for work provided that production rates can sustain.

Not in the US I am afraid if the wages continue to fall.

Don't forget--they can't pay their CEO, their Chief Financial Officer, their Controller and Treasurer, their Chief Information Officer--any more than an assembly line worker. THAT should attract some real top-drawer executive talent.

I would love to see all these rich liberals get together and build a company.

* * * *

Believe me, Crisp--there are no rich liberals on this board.

Well, we can see by this response who the 4 year old is and I bet your long term is what 3 minutes!
Posted by Crassus


I can go 4 minutes sometimes.

Why would they pick MS? I have been there and it was nothing but ignorant rednecks. The people there can't even read the instructions on how to put together the car.

Believe me, Crisp--there are no rich liberals on this board.


Shit, are any of them employed?

"Why would they pick MS?"



Because $13 an hour is pretty good there. Much like why we ship jobs like that to other countries. Thanks goodness for places like MS.

The people there can't even read the instructions on how to put together the car.

Posted by jackass

* * * * *

Seems Nissan was able to find a few. And unless you want some very disagreeable African-Americans on your hands, you might want to keep those thoughts to yourself if you ever visit the plant in Canton/N. Jackson. Maybe you should start hanging around better people when you come here.

so long assus.

Thanks goodness for places like MS.

I wish most of the SE would become their own country. Literacy rate in the usa would jump way up.

Crass,
I think you have too many wounds to lick. You got thunped all day. Be real and accept your loss. Don't be a liberal and blame others for your weakness.

I wish most of the SE would become their own country. Literacy rate in the usa would jump way up.

* * * *

Plus, you guys would be able to win a lot more championships in football, baseball, basketball, tennis, track . . . . . And when you move down here to escape the cold and high taxes, you would have to get past our OTHER anti-illegal-immigration wall, which runs along the old Mason-Dixon line.

Also, when you complain about losing your manufacturing base to other countries "south of the border", you'll be more right than ever!!!

RIR all that inbreeding makes for good athletes huh??

If you think 13 bucks an hour is really good wages how much are you getting? 7.50?

Jack,

To be fair to these jobs that we lose. If we could put some plants in places where $13/hr was a fair wage to live on then we wouldn't lose so many jobs. Unfortunately, most people in this country only want to live in places where you have to earn $30 or more per hour to have anywhere near a decent standard of living. We can't compete with that globally.

George Allen in 08

I was in a place called Greenville Ms for 2 weeks. Worse place I have ever been. I wouldn't live there for 50 bucks an hour

The morons are begining to show up so I am going to depart soon.

Eberly and rightisright the debate has been fun but with the likes of jack and rex showing I don't care to respond to ignorant shit trolling at this time.

Posted by Crassus


Who is this Crassus guy and what the hell is he talking about?

Great post Eb.

Isn't a trailer required by Law for your living quarters in the SE united states? RCADE is selling lots of add space so maybe he has a doublewide.

Greenville might be a nice river town. If you could actually SEE the river without climbing up on the levee. Otherwise, you might as well be in Clarksdale.

If Mississippi is what someone here seriously considers to be the new "America" the rest of us should all strive to match ... god, we're all in so much trouble.

Even the Tunica casinos/boats pay $8 or $9/hr to clean rooms.

"I was in a place called Greenville Ms for 2 weeks."

Thought that was in Alabama, or is that Greenbo, it was green something. Dang, maybe it was greenstein, shit how many green towns do they have out there.

I live in 'Silver'dale........

Long way from federal way.....

crassus lives in Federal way?? I have family there

Um T-REX, been to 'Silver'dale. Dude, you are in the sticks. Do you have a nice padded saddle for your dates?

Have you ever hooked up with a Bremerlo?

If you think 13 bucks an hour is really good wages how much are you getting? 7.50?

* * * *

No, I'm a liberal. I wouldn't dare ask for $7.50 an hour while I know there are others less fortunate than I who only make $5.15. So I do the noble thing and work for minimum wage only. Of course, when you add up my AFDC, my HUD Section 8 Housing Allowance, my Earned Income Credit, my unemployment, and my WIC, I'm able to scrape by on about $15 an hour, all by not working!!! Plus I get free internet with my cable!!! Liberalism is great!!

I would love to see all these rich liberals get together and build a company. They can offer free health care, union wages, time off for protests, time off for family leave, pay for drug and alcohol rehab and the 100 other workers right they whine about.

Think they could turn a profit???

Posted by crispee_oc at 2006-05-30 10:16 PM

OMG, then America wouldn't have enough money for illegal wars of choice!

Go "Fiscal Conservatives"!
"Spreading Enron-style accounting practices to the world since 2001!"

ahahahahaha.......I was married to one.....When were you up here?......Donwtown Bremerton is now more expensive, housing wise, then Queen Anne Hill in Seattle...I kid you not....

I wonder who is doing more out sourcing the U.S. or the restictive european enterprise.


* * * *

LOL. Sure, it's easy to have impressive job gains when you start out with unemployment at 13%. Harder to add jobs when your unemployment rate is about a third that.

Seems strange why the neoconfundies support this kind of objectivity.

What we are seeing here are two different approaches. Let's face it: economic imbalances are a huge problem. It makes no sense that doctors in one country barely make any money, while doctors in another country are driving foreign sports cars, working half days, and living in mansions.

So the approach to this problem differs by ideology. Liberals want to raise up the economies of other countries until they achieve some kind of parity with the "first world" economies.

Republifundie "fiscal conservatives" want to plunder the wealth of economically wealthy countries in order to achieve parity with "third world" economies. And pocket the profit, of course.

"Fiscal Conservative" is just another word for criminal
Go Republitards!

No, I'm a liberal. I wouldn't dare ask for $7.50 an hour while I know there are others less fortunate than I who only make $5.15. So I do the noble thing and work for minimum wage only. Of course, when you add up my AFDC, my HUD Section 8 Housing Allowance, my Earned Income Credit, my unemployment, and my WIC, I'm able to scrape by on about $15 an hour, all by not working!!! Plus I get free internet with my cable!!! Liberalism is great!!


Why do you think I always vote for the socialist party?

I wanna get on the welfare smoke weed and post on drudge all day. If only I could live the dream

Money, which jobs do you want to bring back?

RIR,

I think you spoke too soon...

I wanna get on the welfare smoke weed and post on drudge all day. If only I could live the dream

Posted by jackass


Talk to justsome. Obviously he falls into this category. Actually he is probably a trust fund baby. How ironic would that be?

Thank you. I'm still laughing.

Talk to justsome. Obviously he falls into this category. Actually he is probably a trust fund baby. How ironic would that be?

Posted by eberly at 2006-05-30 11:07 PM

No, I live paycheck to paycheck just like a majority of this nation.

Don't let reality kick you in the teeth again, RisR.

Jsg is still breast feeding.....

And I also don't do drugs or overindulge in alcohol.

I don't need to self-medicate, unlike so many of the Republifundies here who post at 2am while drinking themselves to sleep.

Fit body = fit mind.

Now why would the neocons be so misleading here too.

A recent White House news release contains this claim regarding economic growth:

Last year, the economy grew at a healthy 3.5 % rate--faster than any other major industrialized country.
(http://www.whitehouse.gov/
news/releases/2006/04/
20060411-9.html)

This sort of comparison is hard because nations do not have synchronous business cycles and countries tend to grow faster coming out of a deep trough than at the top of a cycle. Further, a more relevant statistic than Gross Domestic Product (GDP) growth for comparing economic outcomes is growth in GDP per capita. A good chunk of the U.S. GDP advantage over many industrial countries stems only from faster population growth. Growth in living standards is better captured by per capita growth rates.

"Let's face it: economic imbalances are a huge problem. It makes no sense that doctors in one country barely make any money, while doctors in another country are driving foreign sports cars, working half days, and living in mansions"

I will assume that you are talking about doctors here in the USA - you don't have to refer to this country as "another country" are you that big of a treasonist?

Half days? Obviously you don't know any MDs. Kind of shoots your whole argument out the window.

I understand that it doesn't make sense to you.....you are stupid. Different countries have different values and principals....and people in other countries value their health care different that we do here.

JSG you are the most empty headed moron on this blog. No wonder you sleep well.

I wanna get on the welfare smoke weed and post on drudge all day. If only I could live the dream

Posted by jackass

* * * *

Well, not exactly the Martin Luther King speech, but hey!! You have a dream today, and you can live it, baby!!!

It's just easier if you vote Democrat, is all. They'll give you cost-of-living adjustments in your welfare check every time your doobies go up in price. The Dems include bongs in the CPI figures to calculate your welfare benefits. Of course, it'll help if you can also get a few illegitimate children, and turn them into addicts too.

Another tip for you--you can use the farm subsidies program to get paid for the marijuana you DON'T GROW!!!! You can say, the Jackass family didn't grow 100 acres of weed last year, and the Agriculture Department will cut you a check for $65,000, just so you don't cause a disruption in the pot market!!! Are you writing this down?

Crassus,

were you the one who posted about the lying Republifundie testifying before congress, saying the economy is doing great, and that incomes were going up some certain percentage... but then somebody cut him off and asked whether his figure was adjusted for inflation, which it was not... meaning that incomes had actually fallen when adjusted for income.

As I recall, the man perjuring himself before congress even had a degree in economics, so he was fully aware of his lie.

"Fiscal Conservatives"

uh....jsg, we all know by breast, I meant penis, and when I implied female, I meant your priest....

Fit body = fit mind.

Posted by justsomeguy


You must be a 400lb diabetic who eats fried chicken all day between packs of cigarettes.

Fit body = fit mind.

Posted by justsomeguy


10 to 1, jsg is the spitting image of Napoleon Dynamites brother......

Peace out......

bwahahahahahaha

The neoconfundies are at it again in unemployment rates for the country.

A recent White House news release contains this claim regarding unemployment:

The unemployment rate is at 4.7%--lower than the average of the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. (http://www.whitehouse.gov/
news/releases/2006/04/
20060411-9.html)

The unemployment rate of 4.7% in April remains slightly above the rate at the peak of the last business cycle (4.3 % in March 2001).

But the unemployment rate presents too optimistic a picture of labor market slack. Since persons not looking for work are excluded from this measure, when potential workers give up looking for work and leave the job market, the unemployment rate does not fully reflect labor market slack.

You must be a 400lb diabetic who eats fried chicken all day between packs of cigarettes.

Posted by eberly

That would be Larry

Rex, been up to Bremerton, Seattle, Everett, Silverdale... many times, the chics up there are friggin loco, and not in a good way.




WELCOME TO THE ALL NEW "JUST ASK DR KNOW IT ALL".

Crappus asked,

Dear Doctor, how are the women in Seattle.

Dear Crappus, snap out of it son, lets pretend you like women. If you bag a chic from Washington, bang her and then toss her back into the river like a trout that has been rotting in the sun for two days.

As usual, your good Doctor's advice is free of charge to all drudgies.

I will assume that you are talking about doctors here in the USA - you don't have to refer to this country as "another country" are you that big of a treasonist?

You know what they say about assuming, Mr. Ass.

And even for a republifundie, your trite "OMG U R A TRATER!!!" accusation comes off really limp.

I understand that it doesn't make sense to you.....you are stupid. Different countries have different values and principals....and people in other countries value their health care different that we do here.

Posted by eberly at 2006-05-30 11:13 PM

And I realize you are quite a stupid man, so I will make an effort to use small words.

A busboy in the USA can make more money in one year than a doctor in another country. Does that help your pea brain understand the problem with income disparities?

" will assume that you are talking about doctors here in the USA - you don't have to refer to this country as "another country" are you that big of a treasonist?"

Typical wingnut. Always calling liberals traitors. Dumbass.

KIA, where are the chics NOT friggin loco?....Tell me, I will move there...

Bill O'Liely in the hizzhouse.
The snitch has arrived

quick, everyone hide their posts.....

"10 to 1, jsg is the spitting image of Napoleon Dynamites brother......"

Hahahahahahaha, your good Doctor thinks he would be more like a gay Uncle Rico.

KIA, where are the chics NOT friggin loco?....Tell me, I will move there...

San Diego. See you soon.

'When I was young I could throw that football OVER the mountain'......

"quick, everyone hide their posts....."

Hahahahahahahaha, the nanny is here.

"A busboy in the USA can make more money in one year than a doctor in another country. Does that help your pea brain understand the problem with income disparities"

You are right....that is a disparity. Our minimum wage here is too high.



BILL! I KNOW YOU LOVE ME!! YOU ARE FULL OF SO MUCH EMOTION. That is because you are so full of negative emotion that you just can't help yourself. I must have really got your goat at one time because you are really fixated on me.

If you have to refer to the USA as "another country" then you have a problem. You obviously hate this country.

This country......where a busboy can make more than doctors in other countries...and Moneywar is arguing that OUR wages aren't high enough.

Why don't you pussies get together and get your fucking argument straight. You look like frigging idiots......as usual.

Jsg is still breast feeding.....

Posted by zeitgiest at 2006-05-30 11:10 PM

Only from your wife.

Posted by justsomeguy at 2006-05-30 11:12 PM

uh....jsg, we all know by breast, I meant penis, and when I implied female, I meant your priest....

Posted by zeitgiest at 2006-05-30 11:15 PM

OMG, you are married to a priest? Damn, you are one twisted perv.

Twisted LITTLE perv, I meant to say, ZeitSmurf.

Hey, what can I say, Father O'Malley looks good in nylons......

I've had enough for tonite, besides my foot is very tired from all the asskicking here.

Hey Bill, you can keep my boot if you can find it up there.

That's Papa Zeitgsmurf to you youngster......


Now go get me some soup!

Damn EB, slam dunk. But, Justsomecumguzzlingutterslut will come up with some insane defense.

Wonder what is wrong with this picture. Clearly we can see America is not moving in a positive direction.

Compensation, wages, and inflation 2000 to 2006

Posted by Crassus at 2006-05-30 11:30 PM

Pff... what do your facts and reality mean, when God is on our side?

Deficits Don't Matter!
Economy on loan from God!
Go Republifundies!
Fiscal Conservative 4 life, yo!

Bill, if you find a 'left' 10 and 1/2 wide, its mine......

Now go get me some soup!

Posted by zeitgiest at 2006-05-30 11:32 PM


Me make special wonton soup, just for you!

Make sure to keep the 'egg drop' out of it this time.....to salty......

Nite EB, that dingbat (aka JSG) doesn't have a clue or a chance against you.

Me make special wonton soup, just for you!

Posted by justsomeguy

Sorry JSG, nobody wants a bowl of your faaaabuuuuloooos cumofsomeyoungguy.

Nite EB, that dingbat (aka JSG) doesn't have a clue or a chance against you.

Posted by DRKNOWITALL at 2006-05-30 11:35 PM

Bwahahaaha! Thus spake stupidity.

Stay the course, DKIA.
Loser 4 life, yo.

Um, ok sweetheart.

Hummm!

Trade deficits and manufacturing job loss
The relationship between the U.S. trade deficits in manufactured goods and manufacturing employment is simple: As the trade deficit rises, labor demand declines. But recent challenges to this relationship have claimed that U.S. trade deficits had minimal or even no impact on job loss. The EPI Briefing Paper, Trade Deficits and Manufacturing Job Loss: Correlation and Causality, takes these recent challenges to task and shows how the trade deficit accounted for over a fifth of the job loss in manufacturing between 2000 and 2003.

And, as usual Justsomepolesmoker, you can crash any thread. Nobody wants to be around you, later douche.

I'm still laughing.

$13/hr manufacting wages. $65000 trailer homes. The new American middle class, following the Mississippi manufacturing standard.

You. Not me.

(Quiet laughter, followed by tears.)

Manufacturing.

when did living in a trailer make you middle class? I thought if you lived in a trailer you were broke?

And how is this off shoring a good thing, looking to our future according to Eberly.

Foreign liabilities are rapidly increasing, especially to foreign central banks
Mounting trade deficits have caused the United States to incur rapidly growing obligations to foreign investors according to the new report by the Bureau of Economic Analysis. To finance the nation's trade deficits, the United States must sell off more of its assets to foreign investors or reduce the stock of U.S. assets held overseas. The net effect is a rapidly deteriorating net international investment position (NIIP). The U.S. NIIP, measured as a share of total gross domestic product (GDP), deteriorated sharply from 1982 through 2004 as the asset sales necessary to finance trade deficits transformed the United States from the world's strongest international asset position to the world's largest liability position. Earlier this week, data from the organization of the world's central banks showed that foreign central banks are financing 75% of our trade deficit.

An RV show on last night showed some RV's rolling in at $150,000 apiece. They looked 10 fancier than some apts. I've lived in.

that's "10 times fancier"

Biscuit,

Thanks for the help, I seem to lack support in this thread today but was tired earlier so did a vroom cruise on the cruiser and have come back with renewed vigor.

Neoconfundies are the real thieves and those who support the habit show their character flaws.

A new report from the authoritative Bank of International Settlements (BIS)--the international organization of the world's central banks--shows that foreign central banks financed 75% of the U.S. current account deficit in 2004, providing an inflow of $498 billion (Figure 2). 1 The BIS estimate of the official reserve transactions was about 26% larger than the Bureau of Economic Analysis estimate of these flows ($395 billion) because a growing share of these reserves are held by private third-party brokers in transactions that are not reported to the BEA.2

"You look like frigging idiots......as usual."

Eberly, you define idiot. If you think you've done some "ass kicking" here you must be drunk.

"Bill O'Liely in the hizzhouse."

That's right, Jackass, I'm in yo' crib grubbin' on da big piece o'chicken and doin' your biotch.

Bill did you have to look up ebonics to write that?

Just using your vernacular, JackASS.

Glad to help. But it's like trying to convince a creationist that Adam and Eve didn't have a pet dinosaur.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how "you can buy a house for under $65,000 near Nissan-Canton which makes $13/hr a good, middle-class, living wage." Any structure you can back a truck up to, latch the hitch, plug in the 6-pin Pollack connector or glad hands and drive away with is not a "house". It's what we call a "trailer".

Next thing you know, RiR will be trying to convince us that ketchup is a vegetable.

You mean it's NOT?!?

Ketchup is a vegetable imo

Ketchup is a vegetable.

A trailer is a house.

$13/hr is a living wage.

A Moon Pie (the Mississipi delicacy) washed down with an RC Cola makes a balanced meal. Warmed in the sun on the dash of the truck only increases the nutritional value of the marshmellow, Moon Pie center.

Out-sourcing technology and mfg to India (and China) will make us all safer and RICH.

Happy?

Tomatoes are a fruit, so wouldn't Ketchup also be a fruit?

But then again, one of the main ingredients here in the US of A is, as always, corn syrup, so... it could be a vegetable...

Damn, it's all so confusing.

JSG,

The Raygun administration ruled that ketchup is a vegetable in the school lunch program.

Just another example of right wing compassion and concern for school children. Well poor children anyways, I cannot imagine too many children of his "base" ripping open packets to get their servings of vegetables for the day.

I'm back.

OK. It is possible to find homes for $65k if you go east toward Morton and Forest, about 30 minutes away.

But isn't this typical of liberals? So predictable--"We're losing our manufacturing base!!! All the jobs are going to China for a dollar a day!!!" Then you show them, no, there are factories opening all the time, paying nearly twice the prevailing local wage--and they say, yes, sure, in Hicksville Mississippi. Bunch of stupid rednecks living in trailers eating moonpies who can't even read. Bunch of dumb blacks who think $13 an hour is a lot of money. Lemme ask ya: Suppose it's possible that Nissan and Hyundai and BMW and Mercedes are maybe a little smarter than the guys at GM and Ford, who are skirting bankruptcy? Yeah, I think so too.

Go screw yourselves. Obviously we're making cars better and more profitably down here in the South than you're able to do in UAW country for five times the pay. Cars that SELL. Cars that get good gas mileage--something I thought you libs were all for. Cars that make MONEY. The Nissan plant is not only selling out its North America-bound cars, but managing to ship cars to China and the Middle East.

"But isn't this typical of liberals? So predictable--"We're losing our manufacturing base!!! All the jobs are going to China for a dollar a day!!!" Then you show them, no, there are factories opening all the time, paying nearly twice the prevailing local wage--and they say, yes, sure, in Hicksville Mississippi. Bunch of stupid rednecks living in trailers eating moonpies who can't even read. Bunch of dumb blacks who think $13 an hour is a lot of money. Lemme ask ya: Suppose it's possible that Nissan and Hyundai and BMW and Mercedes are maybe a little smarter than the guys at GM and Ford, who are skirting bankruptcy? Yeah, I think so too"


RIR,DKIA, this is very true. If we shipped that same job overseas then the left would piss and moan over and over. One could argue that the job didn't pay enough anyway....what would happen....Moneywar and O'reilly would show up and point out how cheap it is to live in the area and that $13/hr is twice the local wage.

Sounds like these pussies don't really even care about keeping jobs but rather blame somebody for shipping those jobs somewhere else. Pissing and moaning is apparently much more fun.

True enough, E.

Fact is, they're too dumb to even realize that $13 an hour goes farther in Mississippi than $30 an hour goes in New York or California. Still, they know best. As usual.

Eberly is Rightisright is Paleocon,
.
.



Posted by Crassus at 2006-05-30 05:53 PM | Reply

Nah. Let me fill you in. I figured out pretty early on that Moneywar changed his username to Crassus. Sometimes I interchange the names when I post in response to his drivel. So this is his little way of saying that he can play those games too, even though he doesn't know what he's talking about.

He'll change his name again soon, too. He said on another thread that he was in Mogadishu, which means I would either know him in real life, or know a whole lot of people who do in the case we've never met. I've asked him repeatedly for his unit and his MOS--nada. So he'll run under a rock for a few days, change his name again, and come out swinging. Blindly. And I'll have him pegged again in about 10 minutes.

And the money saved lines the pockets of the corporate CEOs and stockholders, not the consumers. It'll all come home to roost one day, when Americans (the largest and richest consumer base of the company that typically outsources) have maxed out their credit cards and can't afford to buy anything. Then they'll actually have to lower prices.... just can't wait.

not to mention fuel costs coupled with rising wages in the other countries due to increases in the std of living. You can't perpetually move manufacturing to "cheaper" regions because not all regions are condusive to operating as a safe and stable society. mexico is learning the lesson of outsourcing due to rising wages at their manufacturing facilities. When the labor costs start to rise the product moves to china. the problem is most managemnt DO NOT look at the whole cost model equation when moving product to a foreign shore. Moving product costs money. Most of the product transfers I have seen do not forecast fuel price increases, wage increases in the receiving country or product raw material cost increases.The net is very litle cost differential in real terms compared to actually manufacturing where the people buy the junk. Materials costs generally are 80% of most manufactured goods total cost and that pricing is monolithic meaning it doesn't change from one region to the other. The only differntial in the whole equation is labor costs and transport costs. When transport cost skyrocket then that offsets the savings in labor costs and basically you have made your company weaker if there are interruptions in supply or delivery being so far away from your markets.. oh well.

Outsourcing can be a good thing, but it would be nice if it could be done within american soil. I understanding getting work done for less $$ but when I call for my IT help desk and it is in India and I can barely understand what that person is trying to tell me, I get so frustrated!! I also understand it must be frustrating for them since they are trying to help the best they can, but with the language sometimes a hinderance.

Outsourcing can be a good thing, but it would be nice if it could be done within american soil. I understanding getting work done for less $$ but when I call for my IT help desk and it is in India and I can barely understand what that person is trying to tell me, I get so frustrated!! I also understand it must be frustrating for them since they are trying to help the best they can, but with the language sometimes a hinderance.

Outsourcing can be a good thing, but it would be nice if it could be done within american soil. I understanding getting work done for less $$ but when I call for my IT help desk and it is in India and I can barely understand what that person is trying to tell me, I get so frustrated!! I also understand it must be frustrating for them since they are trying to help the best they can, but with the language sometimes a hinderance.

Sorry for the triple post. my pc went ballastic

Sounds like you need to call India.

RIR you krrp your 13.00 an hour and your 65k roach infested shitbox.

Ill keep my job and my house.

You fail to take into acct my car costs 34k in california same as it does in MS. Only difference is that I can afford the car you can't

RIR,

You know, I have come to one simple conclusion, YOUR A PRICK! So, decided I was not going to be nice.

OK. It is possible to find homes for $65k if you go east toward Morton and Forest, about 30 minutes away

Fucking moron spouts about wages being great and selling cars even exporting them but didn't understand this great wage isn't enough to even buy a mobile home in a trailer park.

That's the repofundies American dream, Mobile in the trailer park. Now get out there and strive for the dream.

RIR forgot to mention my house does not have wheels on the bottom of it either.

RIR,

Now,

Fact is, they're too dumb to even realize that $13 an hour goes farther in Mississippi than $30 an hour goes in New York or California. Still, they know best. As usual.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

And what is even funny here, those people working in the factory building the cars ARE NOT PAID ENOUGH TO BUY THEM THAR CARS.

But that is your American dream, Pie in the sky!

RIR doesn't have the sense God gave a snail. A 65K house huh? $13/hr. Hell a doublewide costs 70K and you haven't parked it yet. Unless you are claiming squatters rights, you son, are a moron!

What is even more humorous yet, is thoses people who are working and building those car in the Nissan factory making 13 bucks an hour are driving to work in a Cheap American made car which pays 25 bucks an hour.

There is one central theme that Mr. Indian
Techno Guy fails to understand. Sure he sees it from the Indian side, and he obviously has bought into the whole,
Republican "supplied side" economic crap...which is basically equivalent to

((find the cheapest labor pool possible to maximize company profits, keep the shareholders the happiest with trumped up--cooked the book--profit margins, and cut the CEO the fatest check possible))...

but what he can't understand is viewpoint of the Average American Worker...who, no matter how much training they have, is slowly seeing their jobs replaced by either new technologies, or by cheap labor pools in third-world and Asian countries.
This is something "he", (the Average American Worker), cannot reasonably compete with, and has--since the virtual dismantling of Unions of any sort in this country--has little to no recourse to stop.

He (Indian Techno guy) also fails to understand the dynamics of workers,faced with this dead end dilema, having to watch--at the same time--as CEO's walk away with Record Retirement and Severence packages, and while they (Joe average American worker) have had their retirement packages reshuffled and cut, and talk from the Administration of doing away with the
Social Security Net altogether, the same Social Security Net that generations of Americans have relied upon for retirement purposes...

Rather frightening prospects...but then again...((Techno Indian Guy--because he is
both foreign to the U.S., and MOSTLY, because he is only 23, he cannot possibly
forsee the ramifications of Retirement Issues...

Being only 23, he cannot possibly forsee the Rug being Pulled out from Under Himself yet, by those same smiling CEO's...

Actually, a new doublewide with three bedrooms costs $29,900.

Crassus, questions still stand: what unit were you in and what was your MOS when you were in Mogadishu? Or did you lie about that too?

Earth,
What is an average American worker? Everyone knows how gracious and giving this Country is to those who want to better themselves. We give them the tools to be successful and prosperous. Everyone in general have an opportunity to become that evil CEO or be whatever they choose to be.

This is another sad example of the defeatists attitude from the left side of the political spectrum.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

And what is even funny here, those people working in the factory building the cars ARE NOT PAID ENOUGH TO BUY THEM THAR CARS.

But that is your American dream, Pie in the sky!

Posted by Crassus
* * * * *

Go to Salary.com, or other finance sites, and you'll see that it costs up to four times as much to live in NY or SF or LA than it does in the rural South.

But what do I care? You lie about everything anyway. You've lied about your education, you've lied about another little dispute on your selective cutting and pasting, and I'm calling BS on your so-called deployment to Mogadishu. Like I said--if you were there, I would already know you.

Yawn....more BS from the official Drudge corporate shill.

Yep! I'm a lier!

Well, we have establish that. So now what else you going to bull shit your way through.

We continue to show you not that your thinking is wrong, but probably a little misguided.

You spout continuously about how great the Macroeconomics are doing but absolutely ignore the microeconomic side of the fence. Why is that?

You continue to compare everyone in the country to how you are living and refuse to believe that most don't live that way.
Why is that?

What is even funnier yet, when facts and data are thrown your way and I know you know them to be correct, you refute them because it doesn't reflect what you think you know from the Macroeconomic side.

You do say some good things and I admire your hard work, as I work hard also. But this does not give me any understanding as to why you could careless for your fellow Americans who are less fortunate and work just as hard for less.

Gotta love liberals!!! Don't those dumb blacks down South know what's good for 'em? Don't they know that $13 an hour is slave wages? Don't they know that they're better off organizing a strike and sending the factory to Mexico rather than put up with an income that won't even buy a down payment on a Manhattan flat? Don't they know how unhappy they are, turning out cars that Americans want, and that even 1Chinese buy? Don't they know they're better off on welfare than "striving for the dream" by working a good regular job in the hopes of advancement later, and great perks now? What a bunch of ignorant rednecks . . . well, not rednecks exactly . . . what they need are good liberals like us to them how much more they would be making if they were working a union plant in Michigan. That is, if there were any union plants left, and they were hiring . . . Dumb moonpie-eating pickup-truck-driving mobile-home-dwelling Southern hicks--who are THEY to be building better cars than the old, tired factories in Detroit and Flint? Dumb hicks.

I'm calling BS on your so-called deployment to Mogadishu. Like I said--if you were there, I would already know you.

You don't read very well, but that's OK. You might know me, but I bet you don't.
Some of your friends who were there may but I certainly know the political officials who were there know me quite well.

Need to go back and read, stop reading information into what was said. You really can be a prick sometimes.

RIR forgot to mention my house does not have wheels on the bottom of it either.

Posted by jackass

* * * *

This is a good point. I live in a four bedroom three bath house. Detached two-car garage with an upstairs apartment and rear play room. Swimming pool, which I hate and would fill in tomorrow if I wouldn't have a mutiny on my hands from my kids. On about 3/4 of an acre.

The house is worth, they tell me, $182,000--I bought it three years ago for $115,000. How much would this house cost me in Los Angeles County? Naples? Miami? Manhattan? San Francisco? See what I mean?

None of your business, actually--but I make in the low six figures. My pay would be exactly the same, anywhere in the country I decided to live in. But I know that to move to a richer area would entail me stepping down my lifestyle. Rather be a big fish in a small pond, as they say. Enjoy your life, I'll enjoy mine, and let these folks building Nissans enjoy theirs. Live and let live--that's something liberals used to believe in.

Gotta love liberals!!! Don't those dumb blacks down South know what's good for 'em? Don't they know that $13 an hour is slave wages?

This speaks loads about you and your ideas, attitude, morals, ethics and Character. Questionable all of them.

Where did the race issue come from? Seems you decided to insert the race issue to reflect what YOU think we are thinking. Bring up the black racial line is poetic, because as far as I can see we were talking about Americans, all of them, but now I see your idea of America.

If they are below you, they must be black. If they are down south, they must be black. If they are dumb, they must be black.

I have a key to a backhoe, I suggest you turn it off, we don't need any bigger holes to climb into.

Some of your friends who were there may but I certainly know the political officials who were there know me quite well.

* * * *

LOL. What "political officials". They don't have a government! They're a bunch of tribes and militias!! You would know that, if you were there.

Live and let live--that's something liberals used to believe in.

How would you know? I can see by your posting that there is absolutely nothing liberal about you.

Well, I used to be a hardcore Republican
until Ronnie took the party and decided America didn't need to have a middle class anymore and our poor are just shit bags.

But then you ought to be feeling quite good now, Bush is twice as bad as Ronnie and moving America to third world faster with the attitude of it's the peoples fault.

LOL. What "political officials". They don't have a government!

Boy, You can really make yourself look stupid.

You continue to show how you lack reading ability and understanding. Couple things for ya, who said it was theirs, and who says a political official is the government.

Give ya a hint, I was also in EGYPT during Gulf 1 but people like you don't quite understand what goes on other than in your little world of vision.

I was in Indonesia when their little up rising took place. Took the last plane out.

Maybe you should take a little vacation to these 3rd world countries and see how our globalism is working out for them.

You might, emphasist on might, change the way you think and feel about economics.

And remember, Crassus, there is no unemployment because RightisWrong doesn't no any unemployed people.

And remember, Crassus, there is no unemployment because RightisWrong doesn't know any unemployed people.

"""Don't they know that $13 an hour is slave wages?"""

It might as well be but the working poor need to accept the fact that the greedy will keep them poor UNTIL THEY ORGANIZE.

It's worth noting that "Mexico" is less expensive than Mississippi. China is less expensive than Mexico. Vietnam is less expensive than China ...

The first trip I made to Mississippi I saw an old black lady living in a tin shack in the middle of a cotton patch. The little town I worked in was split by railroad tracks. The white folks lived on one side of the tracks and the black folks lived on the other. Each had their own separate schools, shopping, etc. That'll never be "my" America. Sorry.


* * * *

That is your America. Right now the black folks are building cars, right next to the white folks. You want to go back to the good 'ol days, when your precious General Motors ran the world. Now GM is broke, and the blacks are moving onto the assembly lines in Mississippi, and that pisses you off. Not me--I'm thrilled to death. It's been great for the local economy, great for the auto makers (except the big 2), great for consumers, great for exports, great for America. Great for everyone except small-minded liberal bigots who believe blacks should be back in the cotton fields, and not building cars for the world market in modern, air-conditioned plants.

It might as well be but the working poor need to accept the fact that the greedy will keep them poor UNTIL THEY ORGANIZE.

Posted by danni


* * * *

They would dispute your patronizing use of the disparaging term "working poor". Most get plenty of overtime, because they can't build the cars fast enough--the only real down time is during retooling--so an average guy with a high school education is pulling in over $750 a week, if he wants. Which around here is enough to be doing OK. But you won't be happy until he "organizes", and his job gets shipped off to the Yucatan.

"That is your America."

No. That's "Pottersville". My America is Bedford Falls.

And you're just a "scurvy little spider", Mr. Potter.

They would dispute your patronizing use of the disparaging term "working poor". Most get plenty of overtime, because they can't build the cars fast enough--the only real down time is during retooling--so an average guy with a high school education is pulling in over $750 a week, if he wants. Which around here is enough to be doing OK. But you won't be happy until he "organizes", and his job gets shipped off to the Yucatan.

Why is it that you seem to think this is good for America? Lets not let the workers work 40 hours a week for a livable wage, lets make them work 70 hours a week so they can do OK.

Why do you not find this inherently wrong?

RIR,

You keep trouncing on my education, well your right, I only made it past the 3rd grade but that was do to the time period.

Now what is humorous is my 3rd grade education is bantering with your rather proud egoistic 6 year university education and competing quite well.

I should thank my 3rd grade teacher for such a wonderful insightful education she gave me.

Why do you assume these people are stupid? That the reason they work is because they want to, or because they don't have more attractive alternatives? Why doesn't it occur to you that people with only a high-school education are often trying to draw to an inside straight anywhere they live, and that these jobs are a godsend to them? Why doesn't it occur to you that most households have two adults working, which means that, by virtue of Nissan Motor USA, at least one has a secure job with great health and retirement benefits? Why doesn't it occur to you that, besides these jobs, there are thousands more in the Tier-1, -2, and -3 plants that have sprung up around, and countless more in the thousands of businesses that now thrive, just like communities up north used to when GM and Ford was busy?

Oh, come on, WTF is with this asshat moderation on this site?

I was joking around with Rex on in this thread, and idiot RCade made it a dump.

Like I said: I would rather see no moderation than BAD moderation. And Rogers is definitely the latter.

Why doesn't it occur to you that people with only a high-school education are often trying to draw to an inside straight anywhere they live, and that these jobs are a godsend to them?

Does it occur to you that you are talking about 3/4 of the entire country?

Why doesn't it occur to you that people with only a high-school education are often trying to draw to an inside straight anywhere they live, and that these jobs are a godsend to them?

Ah, yes. We get at the crux of the Republifundie agenda: jobs are a "Godsend", which means employers are God.

And, rather than looking to get equal and fair treatment in the workplace, and get paid a fair wage for an honest day's work, the Republifundie agenda is all about forcing people to believe they should be LUCKY to even HAVE a job.

That's why they hate government oversight, it's why they hate fair markets, and it's why they hate labor unions. And it's definitely why they hate America.

RIR is trailer trash Dont let him convince you otherwise

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Wouldn't it be nice if a few executives would cut into their lottery-level salaries and quit whittling away at workers' pay and benefits? Never happen.

Oh, well, history shows that at some point some group of crazies will bust out the guillotines. Then everybody wants to know "What happened?" The bottom line is that America was much more of a community when CEOs only made a few times the amount of money as their average workers. That's been lost, and the greed apologists here haven't a clue as to what that took away from this country in the process. My prediction is that they'll find out eventually--but they'll still only care about their own asses.

And don't you know that the billion-dollar execs are the ones with the American flag pins in their lapels, right? Reminds me of Creedence's "Fortunate Son." Shouldn't their flag have dollar signs on it? And shouldn't it be flown out front of the First Assembly of the Golden Calf?

"No man can serve two masters...he will love the one and despise the other...You cannot serve both God and mammon."

And THEN the plunder advocates talk endlessly about how America is a Godly country. "God bless America." When they really have their eye on the Golden Calf, right? I'm not anti-business--I guess I'm just old-fashioned in thinking that greed is not a virtue.

Greed is not a virtue, and prosperity is not a sin.

Prosperity in a society is measured by more than just money. Of course, to Golden Calfers, money is the only thing one must value.

If money is your master then you are wrong.

No way JSG deserves a 'dump' on that comment.....1000 others he has made maybe...but not that one....

I love the things money can buy. Nothing money can't buy. some say money can't buy love, boy are they wrong.

Greed is not a virtue, and prosperity is not a sin.

Well, if most are not prosperous, then those who are may be considered greedy!

some say money can't buy love, boy are they wrong.

This only remains correct for as long as you have money. See how fast that love flies away when you are out of it.

And, rather than looking to get equal and fair treatment in the workplace, and get paid a fair wage for an honest day's work, the Republifundie agenda is all about forcing people to believe they should be LUCKY to even HAVE a job.

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Hello? Idiot? They make twice what they would make in a comparable job anywhere in the state.

But please tell me, oh wise liberal: how much SHOULD they make? Ye who knows all. Ye who sees all. Ye who would regulate the lives of everyone everywhere--how much should an assembly line worker in the Nissan plant in Canton, Mississippi make?

I love the things money can buy. Nothing money can't buy. some say money can't buy love, boy are they wrong.

Posted by jackass

* * * *

How about a personality? Maybe you could even get a used one, on Ebay.

"how much should an assembly line worker in the Nissan plant in Canton, Mississippi make?"

More than you, that's for sure.

RiR, I wouldn't give a hundred of you for 1 JA......So solly.......

There are some things money can't buy......

"This only remains correct for as long as you have money. See how fast that love flies away when you are out of it."

What is essential in relationships, what is essential in growth, what is essential in happiness....all are invisible to the eye.

oh yea...I just farted....

How about a personality? Maybe you could even get a used one, on Ebay.

LOL!!!!

But for his personality no one would pay for the shipping regardless of the cost.

Even rcade even keeping track of dumps anymore? *confused*

Hey rogers...what are the rules this week?

But for his personality no one would pay for the shipping regardless of the cost.

Posted by Crassus

* * * *

I would. I'll even pay for the implantation. If he needs my Paypal account number, just let me know.

RCADE wised up and decided we needed more free speech and less dumps

Gotta love liberals!!! Don't those dumb blacks down South know what's good for 'em? Don't they know that $13 an hour is slave wages? Don't they know that they're better off organizing a strike and sending the factory to Mexico rather than put up with an income that won't even buy a down payment on a Manhattan flat? Don't they know how unhappy they are, turning out cars that Americans want, and that even 1Chinese buy? Don't they know they're better off on welfare than "striving for the dream" by working a good regular job in the hopes of advancement later, and great perks now? What a bunch of ignorant rednecks . . . well, not rednecks exactly . . . what they need are good liberals like us to them how much more they would be making if they were working a union plant in Michigan. That is, if there were any union plants left, and they were hiring . . . Dumb moonpie-eating pickup-truck-driving mobile-home-dwelling Southern hicks--who are THEY to be building better cars than the old, tired factories in Detroit and Flint? Dumb hicks.

Posted by rightisrigh

you are corporate americas wet dream.. I love workers like you as I get to shit on you as a manager and and instead of bitching you open your mouth and take the whole load.. seriously. Keep on trucking. BTW I am in the south and love the right to work junk as i can fire my workers without any recourse..yes that would include 13/hr unskilled labor like yourself.

RIR is right. He should be happy to make 13.00 an hr with his intelligence. People like him usually work at goodwill. RIR long as you pay your bills and arent utlizing my tax dollars for welfare who am I to complain?

RIR,

As much as I like the idea of Nissan being there I find some disturbing things.

In its Canton, Miss. plant, Nissan has slashed wages to about 40% below what an union autoworker in one of the Big Three auto plants earns, and about 20% under the pay scale for Nissan workers in the company's Smyrna, Tenn. plant, some 300 miles distant. The average hourly wage in Canton is about $12 an hour, while the supplier industries for the plant are paying $9-11 per hour. These are poverty-level wages, for full-time, skilled industrial work.

I am on welfare. I already told you. I smoke grass all day and live in a big house paid for with WIC and AFDC money, because my business, which is trafficking illegal aliens, is obviously not reported on the tax forms. Even qualified for the Earned Income Credit this year, by claiming an extra four dependents using fake Social Security numbers. I grow my own pot, because I don't want to contribute to the trade deficit with Latin America in regard to illicit drugs. And I drive a big Infiniti SUV which gets 14 MPH city, because I need a big vehicle with tinted windows to get my illegal aliens from job to job. It wasn't made in Canton, though. I get free cable by using an illegal box, and I siphon power from my neighbors' meters.

Running for congress, rightisright?

Sounds like it is not all peaches and cream down there.

The slave-labor-like conditions being enforced at Nissan's Canton plant are also severely impacting the State of Mississippi. When asked by EIR, what, if any, benefits the plant has brought to the state, which made a significant commitment to Nissan to have the plant located there, Evans was blunt: "You know, when the commitment was made, to do the Nissan plant, the initial investment was $300 million or so. And then they came back, and wanted another launch-pad, and we paid for another $64 million. And there were also other things that we paid for, as far as training, and set-up costs, and other things, and that come to around $400 million. That was the financial thing. Then, the tax breaks and the tax benefits, from the state, and from the county, and from the city of Canton, added as part of our normal economic package. And I think that folks calculated that at about $65-70,000 per job. That was the commitment that the state made to that Nissan project there."

But, those hopes were soon dashed, when the state realized that the wages at the plant were so low, that returns to the economy would be virtually nil. "To get its investment back," Evans explained, "in essence, was [the assumption] that [Nissan] would be paying workers $23 an hour. We calculated when we would get the money back. Now, if you're paying them $12 an hour, that means it's going to take you double the time to get it back, if you ever get it. And you have to examine: Is the commitment being kept? That's what the community wants ... and those are questions that the taxpayers are concerned with being answered."

In other words, workers making $24,000 per year, at best--barely above the official poverty level for a family of four--will not be paying much in the way of taxes, or have the discretionary income to spend in the local economy, as had been anticipated. Evans estimated that it would take at least 20 years for Mississippi to recover, in payroll taxes, its concessions to Nissan.

In addition, Nissan--acting as an "automotive Wal-Mart"--threatens its local suppliers, like Tower Automotive, with cutoff of contracts in reprisal for any union activity at the supplier.

RIR,

As much as I like the idea of Nissan building a plant and do like the fact they are paying a high wage than the minimum area, your post at 11:08 truely reflects what you think of this workers, even when the facts suggest it is still poverty level wages.

So how low are you willing to down America before you say enough?

You speak of how high should the wage be, I say at least above poverty, but you suggest it is too much and they should be thankful freeloaders.

How far down will you allow America to lower its wages to say they are good. I suspect until you lose your job then they have gone too far.

I don't know where the article is, but it's contrary to my experience there. Many of the line people average $12 an hour. But you have hundreds of engineers and managers and technicians making much more. Even the part about Tower Automotive is suspect; I know they are hiring, right now, talent away from Nissan suppliers in other places in the state--I'm the one responsible for rolling the money over.

You're missing the point: people who are making $13 an hour do so because they don't have other alternatives elsewhere. You plop a factory down in a depressed area and offer thousands of jobs that typically pay $8 to $10, and you offer $13 for the lowest-skill-set worker. Why you're arguing this is a bad thing, I can't figure. Just don't work there, if it sounds awful to you. Can't blame you, personally--the jobs are so routine and boring I wouldn't want 'em either. Unless I had nothing else.

Well, I guess a new Nissan is out if it's being made by the toothless...

The reason we have regulation (far less of it now, I admit) is that some people don't conduct themselves ehtically. And when the bank doors are wide open and the guards have been fired, this will naturally attract thieves. The reason we have taxes (though far fewer of them now, I admit) is that there are some who will refuse to pay even for the roads they drive on if they can do so, and stick their neighbors with the bill while hoarding as much as they can. And then they use that hoard to buy their way out of further responsibilities to the commons, because, well, they need a yacht.

This is why "civilizations" have "governments." Or, alternatively, "revolutions."

The reason we have taxes (though far fewer of them now, I admit) is that there are some who will refuse to pay even for the roads they drive on if they can do so, and stick their neighbors with the bill while hoarding as much as they can. And then they use that hoard to buy their way out of further responsibilities to the commons, because, well, they need a yacht.

* * * *

That's just what I'm doing, Jim!! So when you have your revolution, I can press a button and send all my money to Switzerland, and sail away in my yacht!!

I remember I collected food stamps forever. I used to use an altered paycheck stub that made it look like I was only getting 6 bucks an hour. Plus even to this day I get free cable. All I did was slip a splitter in on my neighbors box. I smoke weed but I dont sell it.

So the minimum standard to be above poverty level is 27,000 and the pay of 12 per hour is 25,000 per year.

So they are 2000 dollars into poverty the first year, but now they go further into poverty the second year because they now have less to maintain to sustain the same level and the cycle continues.

How do you see this as a good thing. They are not even willing to pay the minimum standard to live in the area.

I used to use an altered paycheck stub that made it look like I was only getting 6 bucks an hour.

* * * *

NOT BAD!! Never thought of that one. You ever try this?--I like to volunteer at the Food Bank, and tell them I'm going to make deliveries, then just take the stuff home. I've had to buy two spare freezers!!! I invite the neighbors over sometimes for burgers and cheese. A LOT of cheese--least I can do, since I'm stealing their power, and they're paying for my cable.
Last week there was a bad thunderstorm, and knocked out the cable for a few minutes. I called my neighbor and said, Your cable's out--can you please call the cable company and get it turned back on?

RIR,

I don't understand why you refuse to support at least a minimum level of wage for labor that is clearly not a summer job but should be life long in most cases.

You or I would not even consider this but that is not my point.

I do understand that we have wages that are inflated and should be reduced, but I don't understand the support to have wages we know to be below poverty level.

It hurts all of us, even you particularly since you live in the area and your state government subsidized this with money expecting a return they are not getting. So now the state is going to go further behind in revenue because of miscalculation in the revenue forecast. This hurting the whole area with more taxes, but not hurting the very company that caused the problem.

I do see you do have a sense of humor RIR.

The government cheese tastes like shit. Never had government meat though, bet it is tough.

Better yet, why not volunteer for toys for tots and deliver them to all your grand kids and kids.

The government cheese tastes like shit. Never had government meat though, bet it is tough.

* * * *

Well, that's why I give it to my neighbors.

Well, that's why I give it to my neighbors.

LOL!!!!

Nice to see a little humor in our heated debates, I kind of think you and I could enjoy a beer or two at the bar.