Hardly news. Some years back I remember reading about a study where fighter pilots in some g-force training or other were induced into having NDEs. Without the pressure suit that keeps the blood flowing through the legs, circulation was ultimately kept from the brain, rendering the pilots unconscious. Deprived of oxygen, significant numbers said they'd experienced something akin to the "light at the end of the tunnel" scenario.

OMG, how are the Republifundies going to spin this?

LIES!!! LIES!!! The earth is only 13 years old, and all evidence to the contrary was created by the devil to fool everyone!

awwww man
i was kind of hopin for an afterlife :(

Wow. This is a big surprise. Still won't keep the loonies from claiming there is an afterlife, though.

I have seen my life flash before my eyes many times in near death experiences. I think this report is BS and has no scientific basis.

Where's Art Bell when you need him?

Harrier

I have seen my life flash before my eyes many times in near death experiences

MANY times?? Geeeeze, what do you do for a living?

Harrier

I have seen my life flash before my eyes many times in near death experiences

MANY times?? Geeeeze, what do you do for a living?

Posted by califchris at 2006-04-12 03:22 AM | Reply

probably a sex freak, into auto-asphyxiation...(spell check please!)

It's Autoerotic Asphyxiation ClintonIsKing.

Larry

But the Bible says there is an afterlife.

Why should I trust these mortal scientists, when I have the immortal word of God to go by?

Belief in God as creator, His majesty, the grace and mercy he freely gives us through Jesus Christ as undeserving men are key to understand and grasp this truth.

And the Bible is our guide.

There are 38 different translations of the word "hell" ranging from a pit in the ground to "place of great heat"

The bible is the greatest collaborative fairy tale ever written..

poor fucking religioussaps...

....jeeebus, save me!!!!! lolololololol.

i wonder why god never heals amputees?

DOH!

"Study: Near Death Experiences Biological"

Interesting article. Won't keep the wackoids from getting out their drums and rattles and yammering on about the supernatural.

Next up, alien abductions are biological experiences and anal probes-what your dog is really doing to you while you sleep

"""The clearest depiction of existence beyond physical death is seen in Luke 16:19-31."""

Religion and especially belief in an interventionist god is a refuge for weak-minded people who have a penchant for masochism and perpetual guilt.

The irony: Darwin's theorem will eventually weed you out.

Northguy, you forgot "Film at 11."

Northguy, you forgot "Film at 11."

I think that includes the rerun at midnight.

"Belief in God as creator, His majesty, the grace and mercy he freely gives us through Jesus Christ as undeserving men are key to understand and grasp this truth.

And the Bible is our guide."

Posted by niceville at 2006-04-12 07:59 AM | Reply

This message paid for by the National Association of Clotheshanger Manufacturers

Consider this:

How many of you believe in the existence of UFOs as evidence of alien intelligence?

(Not many, I imagine.)

How many, therefore, do not believe that there is intelligent alien life in the universe because of your doubt about UFOs?


One is not contingent on the other.

If I need NDEs or the Shroud of Turin or Fatima, etc. to justify my faith then I don't have much to begin with.

Signed

One of the "weak-minded people"
One of the "wackoids"
One of the "loonies"

(Oh, come on, you know who it is.)

Cheers

It should be noted that those conducting the study are atheist and they also didnt talk about the near-death experiences where people were able to descibe what was on the roof of the hospital after they rose above their bodies and out of the building. Doctors have run upstairs after operations to check and see if the patient was accurate about what they saw before they were brought back--so considor the source in studies like this

"Doctors have run upstairs after operations to check and see if the patient was accurate about what they saw before they were brought back--so considor the source in studies like this"

Sources?

Does it really matter whether some one thinks death experiences are biological, spiritual, muti-dimensional or what-the-hell-ever?

It's how we live our lives on THIS side that counts, knowing, and not forgetting, that death is our constant and only true companion.

"It should be noted that those conducting the study are atheist "
Source?
You talking to curveball or Chalabi again?

I had a moment where my life flashed before my eyes, and my life wasnt even actually in danger.

One day I was by a railroad crossing, and a train was being boarded. I just waited at the crosswalk like everyone else, but I imagined myself crossing through. Well, another train came by while I was 'crossing', and had I really been crossing, it would have hit me. Standing there, my life flashed before my eyes (well, it was more a selective viewing of the highlights), it took about a second. And, of course, it came at no risk to myself.

"It should be noted that those conducting the study are atheist."

Even if true, what is the relevance?

of course its biological...

what nonsense to think anything else...heres a question:

"if there's a heaven, why is each persons near death experience different, why do they describe the gates of 'heaven' differently? you think that heaven would look the same to everyone.

...unless of course its all just a chemical reaction, stemming from each individuals pyshce....nah, fuck it...

..its much easier to imagine some holy grandpa in the sky, waiting for you with open arms, surrounded by winged people strumming harps.

lololololololololol.

"winged people strumming harps."

I was SO hoping for Fender Stratocasters!!

Zat:
"I was SO hoping for Fender Stratocasters!!"
------------------
...not practical, then they would need amps.

lololol.

"
Get used to accordians.
"

Myron Floren is in hell?
Figures.

"Myron Floren is in hell?"

Part of the reprisal for the Alice Lon incident.

Hans

"The clearest depiction of existence beyond physical death is seen in Luke 16:19-31."

Can you personally confirm this please! Take a trip to the beyond this afternoon and report back what you observe.

I will be glad to help you on your way, just let me know.

That trickster God is at it again. Hiding "fossils" to make us think the planet is more than 6000 years old:
LONDON (Reuters) - An international team of scientists have discovered 4.1 million year old fossils in eastern Ethiopia that fill a missing gap in human evolution.
The teeth and bones belong to a primitive species of Australopithecus known as Au. anamensis, an ape-man creature that walked on two legs.

The Australopithecus genus is thought to be an ancestor of modern humans. Seven separate species have been named. Au. anamensis is the most primitive.

"This new discovery closes the gap between the fully blown Australopithecines and earlier forms we call Ardipithecus," said Tim White, a leader of the team from the University of California, Berkeley.

"We now know where Australopithecus came from before 4 million years ago."

Careful there Northguy or I'll have to get you a subscription to Nature or Science. Or both.

"Science". Is that one of them comic books? I learned all I need to know about science from Genesis and the Flintstones.

Yeah
A peer-reviewed comic book.
I get a new one every week.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

Now they are using our tax dollars to say that God is dead. At least the Left is creating jobs for scientists!!!

Why are the Left afraid of God? Could it be that the belief in God keeps them out of leadership in this country?

I guess we should fear God. I was driving down I5 to LA over the weekend. I kept trying to listen to the radio. About half (my judgement) of the stations were Christian format, the other half were Spanish. If that measure is correct, then all the non-Spanish speakers are born again Christians in the Central Valley, any way.

Maybe we should be afraid.

I have thought about this some more.

The assumption implicit in this study is that NDEs can have only one cause. There is nothing, however, that says that NDEs can't be both a biological AND spiritual event. The problem, of course, is that science has no way of testing for a spiritual component. So how can it say it is "only" biological?

Consider this: from the strict point of view of a biochemist consciousness can't be proven to exist; scientists may, however, be able to point to biochemical reactions that occur seemingly in conjunction with an accepted notion of consciousness, but science cannot study consciousness directly--only its secondary effects--speech or behavior or the appearance of electrical neural impulses. Yet, we all know that consciousness exists--is perhaps the most real thing there is. br />

If there is a soul, then most would accept that it shares a relationship with the body; it would make sense to me that the nexus for the body, mind soul connection could be only observed in the brain. However, the only aspect we can examine empirically would be the physical component. The fact that certain areas of the brain which reflect consciousness or interpret experiences show activity when one nears death indicates some kind of event is occuring. For those who believe in the soul, it could, in fact, indicate a stronge link between body and soul around the time of death--when one prepares for death. It can't conclude that there is no soul or even life after death.


In the end, as I said previously, one's faith in God can't be grounded in science (but that is not tantamount to believing that science and reason have nothing to contribute to faith). Going to science to prove the existence of the soul is like going to Shakespeare for insight into quantum mechanics. You would be a fool to believe that either one could even address the problems let alone provide answers.


PAX

If You believe that a Soul exists and that Man posesses such a Soul. It would stand to reason that the Biological Body and the spirit are interwoven Fabric. For without the soul the Body is useless. I believe there is a Here after what that entails I do not know. But if what Science is true that Yo can not create energy nor can it be destroyed then it stands to reason that Our spirit(energy) moves on.

Larry

In the end, as I said previously, one's faith in God can't be grounded in science

Well in a way it is Grendel. This is a psychological issue about why people believe.

There is nothing surprising about this report. As long as one's body is alive, the brain is active. Near death experiences are similar to dream states.

For without the soul the Body is useless.

My gosh Larry, you need to catch up to the 21st century.

...not practical, then they would need amps.

Posted by inthesownd at 2006-04-12 03:00 PM

That's the great thing about Heaven: truly wireless Electric Guitars!

Why are the Left afraid of God? Could it be that the belief in God keeps them out of leadership in this country?

Posted by denver_coder at 2006-04-12 04:12 PM

Diebold is God? Whodathunkit?

The GOP: Rigging elections... FOR GOD!!!

Go Republifundies!

Intelligent life in the universe? Hell, I can't even find intelligent life on earth. I do wonder if The Establishment hushed up the Roswell UFO crash because the "aliens" brought positive proof to debunk religion, and that would have brought down the established social order. herm

" But if what Science is true that You can not create energy nor can it be destroyed then it stands to reason that Our spirit(energy) moves on."

...actually Larry, thats MATTER that cannot be created nor destroyed, not energy. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Energy sources are used and depleted on a daily basis.

E=MC^2

The assumption implicit in this study is that NDEs can have only one cause. There is nothing, however, that says that NDEs can't be both a biological AND spiritual event.

Yep. Isn't all human experience biolgical and something? For example, love is biological and emotional; thinking is biological and intellectual. Why couldn't a religious experience be biolgical and spiritual? How many people are willing to throw out love or thinking because those activites have a biological component which can be measured in the brain? The five senses involve neural activity of various parts of the brain; shall we validate those perceptions but invalidate perceptions that are related to the dream state? Dreams aren't real, but they're not nonessential to our health and survival. Perhaps they are not nonessential to our dying either.

If there is a soul, then most would accept that it shares a relationship with the body; it would make sense to me that the nexus for the body, mind soul connection could be only observed in the brain.

Well, since what happpens in the brain affects what happens throughout the body, I think, theoretically, the connection could be observed throughout the body--if we knew what to look for and had the means to measure such an effect.

However, he suggested the theory did not automatically rule out a spiritual dimension to near death experiences.

"We, as neurologists. address the how of these experiences coming about but not the why," he said.

Which puts me in mind of a line form Eliot: "We had the experience but missed the meaning." In this case, they measured the phenomenon, but admitted they didn't understand the meaning.

BTW, I've heard reports, too, of people who could describe things that were happening around them while they were clinically dead. They could report what people said and did. Sometimes they were able to describe the medical procedures performed on their near dead or dead bodies.

Dreams aren't real

Of course, some folks think none of this is real. All is maya, illusion. Dreams could be an illusion within an illusion. So could death. :-)

I saw a special on this, they can re-create the exact same experiences in the centrifuges the pilots and Astronauts train in. The key appears to be the blood leaving the brain.

They've also attached phoos and signs to the top of the lights in OR's and people in those room who reported "out of body" or floating experiences could not identify the photos or signs.

This is a psychological issue about why people believe.

Or is this a spiritual issue that has a physical component?

Scientists set up a test that can only measure the tangible, and when (surprise, surprise) they only can measure the tangible, they pronounce that intangibles don't exist.

This is then presented as some kind of major insight.

Yep. Isn't all human experience biolgical and something? For example, love is biological and emotional; thinking is biological and intellectual.

I agree Gal. It is that "and something" that gets us every time. Whatever that something is, we can't measure it, quantify, even adequately describe, but most of us know, know intuitively, that it is there and missing from the equation of life-- a variable that forever remains unknown. To couch it in the language of astrophysicists, it is a kind of existential dark matter.

To say that we have isolated "and something" and observed it as a kind of biochemical brain reactions is to say we have "seen" a subatomic particle by observing the energy trail it left on a photographic plate after a particle accelerator crashed into another particle.

We haven't see the particle itself but an aspect of it that our limited senses allow.

If all we are is merely the sum total of billions of biochemical processes (all of our thoughts, feelings, our sensory experience) than everything is truly an illusion, a bizarre mixing of chemical compounds and elements, which we label life. Consciousness itself would be a sham.

PAX

So Grendel, you've raised some interesting points. Where would you put atheists?
Those of us that live good, moral lives with no belief. No "father figure" to keep us from doing harm to others or our environment. We fully accept there is no afterlife, when you die, that's all folks. And yet we are happy and live fulfilling lives. Having freed ourselves from the shackles of mythology and superstion, we are like the blind who have recently gained the ability to see.
It's an incredibly liberating experience.

Consciousness itself would be a sham.

Consciousness itself is what it is. The meaning is a construct for which we are responsible.

My 2 cents anyway.

Inthesownd,

actually Larry, thats MATTER that cannot be created nor destroyed, not energy. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Energy sources are used and depleted on a daily basis.

Actually Sownd, energy can not be destroyed. It can be stored, released, transformed, but it can't be destroyed. Think of it this way: The lightbulb in a lamp converts electrical energy into heat and light energy. The energy itself is not destroyed, it still exist as heat in the room, then as heat in the atmosphere, then as heat in the solar system, then as heat in the galaxy, then as heat in the universe. Wish I could explain it better, but that's it, in a nutshell.

Grendel--and what would be the great point of an afterlife--to worship a god? What's the point of that. Not much of a god that just makes things to worship it. Not much of an imagination. Pretty big universe out there for just us humans--he didn't have to go to all that trouble.

So Grendel, you've raised some interesting points. Where would you put atheists? Those of us that live good, moral lives with no belief. No "father figure" to keep us from doing harm to others or our environment. We fully accept there is no afterlife, when you die, that's all folks. And yet we are happy and live fulfilling lives.

I am happy for you, honestly. I make no judgments on you as a person. You sound like a very nice guy.

But, where would I put you? Where am I supposed to put you? Do I have to put you anywhere? Why is up to me?

If you are wondering what I think happens to atheists according to my personal belief system, then the short answer is I don't know. Perhaps you get exactly what you believe, but I don't like that response. I like to think if God/Christ is "the truth, the way and the life" that anyone who searches and longs for truth, searches for God, just under a different name or way. It is my hope that this search is what we are "judged" on, not what our particular answer is. Truth is truth, and truth is never separate from the divine, even if we don't recognize it.

Whatever the belief system is, I think it can only describe in the smallest and limited way what happens to us. What does a caterpillar know about flying?

Having freed ourselves from the shackles of mythology and superstion, we are like the blind who have recently gained the ability to see.

Have you read Plato's "Allegory of the Cave"? He used the same exact imagery to describe our existence in this world as opposed to an enlightened existence once we left the cave. Of course, the cave of illusion was earthly existence. (In an interesting side note, I love the fact that large universities sometimes refer to their experimental virtual reality rooms as "The Cave." Plato would have loved it.)

It's an incredibly liberating experience.

Truth is always perceived as liberating. The problem is we don't agree on what truth is, but we do, I think, agree that there is truth. That is enough in my book.

***********

Grendel--and what would be the great point of an afterlife--to worship a god? What's the point of that. Not much of a god that just makes things to worship it. Not much of an imagination.

The soul seeks its perfection; that perfection is found in reuniting with God. Worship is simply another way of saying that the soul seeks a relationship with God and in that relationship recognizes the difference between the creator and the created. I find it rather interesting that you attribute it to a lack of imagination, when most religious people I know see as the work of the greatest imagination.

Pretty big universe out there for just us humans--he didn't have to go to all that trouble.

Pretty big God. I am pretty sure he would say it was no trouble at all.

"just us" Maybe not.

No matter how much knowledge we gain over the centuries, we are always at the very beginning of understanding all that there is to understand.

Cheers.

Intelligent life in the universe? Hell, I can't even find intelligent life on earth. I do wonder if The Establishment hushed up the Roswell UFO crash because the "aliens" brought positive proof to debunk religion, and that would have brought down the established social order. herm

Posted by herm at 2006-04-12 07:17 PM | Reply

How would covering up ufo's debunk religion?

Tell me, what do those wheels within the wheels, the whirlwinds, the lights and many other images in the Bible point to?

Its pointless to debate why someone worships an imaginery friend. You would do just as a well to try and tell a meth addict that meth sucks and clouds your mind. I look at religion as another in a long litany of human weaknesses that plague our species. Greed, lust, desire for strong drink, cannibalism, drug addiction,gambling addiction many more including religion. People are seeking to fill a void instead of accepting their role in the universe. You were nothing before and will be so again. Nothing wrong with that. Most religious people can't accept that and feel they are above being worm food. too bad..

Raymond Chandler called it the Big Sleep.

Faulkner wrote the screenplay.

Lauren Bacall stole the show.

Bogie was a lucky guy.

Its pointless to debate why someone worships an imaginery friend. You would do just as a well to try and tell a meth addict that meth sucks and clouds your mind. I look at religion as another in a long litany of human weaknesses that plague our species. Greed, lust, desire for strong drink, cannibalism, drug addiction,gambling addiction many more including religion. People are seeking to fill a void instead of accepting their role in the universe. You were nothing before and will be so again. Nothing wrong with that. Most religious people can't accept that and feel they are above being worm food. too bad..

Funny, I look at having absolute certainty of knowledge and truth is the greatest of the long litany of human weaknesses. This blog alone will prove that such a weakness is not limited to the religious minded; rather it seems to be part of all human nature.

Perhaps when we suppress our ignorance we project our arrogance. If we are addicted to anything it is our own ego. Most religions teach a kind of paradox in that by denying our selves we gain something for ourselves.

Perhaps that is our role in the universe.

Many people believe that they can be more than worm food, but to do so requires humility. Nothing wrong with that.

PAX

It is too bad this thread fell off the page. It was a very interesting and enjoyable one.

Grendel--"The soul seeks its perfection; that perfection is found in reuniting with God."

You are assuming a "soul" and a "god" exist and then pontificate on their function.

"Worship is simply another way of saying that the soul seeks a relationship with God and in that relationship recognizes the difference between the creator and the created."

So the soul is like a symbiote that seeks its creator. The soul is a separate life form with goals of its own.

"I find it rather interesting that you attribute it to a lack of imagination, when most religious people I know see as the work of the greatest imagination."

Well they are religious people--not really known for their imagination--delusions yes--imagination no. But think about it--what great being--powerful enough to create the universe from nothing--much like the Big Bang concept--would be so small minded as to make creatures whose sole reason for existence would be to worship it? Would even someone like you want to walk out of your house everyday with billions of people on their knees in your front yard praying to you and asking you to cure boils on their ass and everything else under the sun? Would you create that existence for yourself if you were a god? Movie stars can't even stand the constant attention and worship they get when they go out in the street. You think a god would make creatures that would simply pray to him and worship him constantly through all eternity would be a goal of a god? No imagination.

"No matter how much knowledge we gain over the centuries, we are always at the very beginning of understanding all that there is to understand"

I agree. I also believe that religion has held us back from gaining knowledge in deliberate attempts to keep mankind shackled to nonsensical beliefs for the good and power of the church.

You are assuming a "soul" and a "god" exist and then pontificate on their function.

Yes, I believe in the existence of a soul based upon a mixture of rational thought and experience, and I belong to a group of people who share similar thoughts. Pontificating? well if expressing one's personal beliefs is pontificating then I am good company here on the drudge retort, and I am not just talking about the religious minded.

So the soul is like a symbiote that seeks its creator

Don't know about symbiotic biology, but I never thought a symbiotic creature was created by its host or other symbiot. It is an interesting analogy but does quite cover my beliefs.

Well they are religious people--not really known for their imagination--delusions yes--imagination no

Yes, that Michelangelo, Dante, Tolkien, Lewis, among scores of others; they were all deficient in the imagination department.

Bang concept--would be so small minded as to make creatures whose sole reason for existence would be to worship it?

I believe I addressed this in the previous post.

Worship is simply another way of saying that the soul seeks a relationship with God and in that relationship recognizes the difference between the creator and the created. I see it as more descriptive of the relationship than prescriptive.

I also believe that religion has held us back from gaining knowledge in deliberate attempts to keep mankind shackled to nonsensical beliefs for the good and power of the church.

Yes, it held back Ockham, Bacon, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Planck among others.

If you are going to blame religion on keep human knowledge back than how do you reconcile the fact that it was the religious who kept the learning and thought of the ancient world alive. Without the foundation of pagan greece, science would not have advanced. Without the work of religious people in the middle ages, those texts never would have survive. Don't forget Ockham was a Monk.

I don't rest the ills of man on the shoulders of religion but on the nature of man himself.

Cheers,

P.S. I doubt you will read this, since it is long gone from the page.

Grendel---Science holds no debt to religion for any advances. You claim they kept the learning and thought of the ancient world alive---if it weren't for religion it would have flourished for all the years religion was "saving" it.

Your concept of the soul must be innaccurate, for if there were a soul--a separate life form independant of our wished and its function was to join with God and we all have one--then people wouldn't be such assholes. Now why would God punish a soul for something a separate life form did? Souldn't all sould get back to God since they have done nothing wrong? But even the fact of a God like the biblical God should test a persons moral fiber. Who would worship a God that would torture a person for all eterity? Who would worship a God that kills fetuses in the womb? Who would worship a God that creates diseases that disfigures and tortures before dying?
Would you think a leader of a country that did those things was a good leader? Would you vote for such a man? Yet you would worship such a God. There is only one reason someone would worship such a God--the same reason they had Jews putting other Jews in the gas chambers--fear. Fear. Fear of Hell--fear of the torture of your God for all eternity. To me that shows a lack of moral fiber--and if there is a God worthy of the name--I'm sure he would feel the same way. And all your ranting about the soul and God can come down to your statement--Yes, I believe in the existence of a soul based upon a mixture of rational thought and experience---You believe---that doesn't make it fact---and because a lot of people believe it--doesn't make it fact. So until you can speak of facts you shouldn't speak of things as if they were already proven. But as I said before--only morally corrupt people could worship the murdering biblical God--and only out of fear. God is not found by King James version of events.