ahahahahahahahaaha

I suppose someone has to point out...
A. There is no Saturday nooner
B. It hasn't been noon for many hours.

Proof that most people have something better to do on a Saturday that screw their employer by wasting time on Retort.

Interesting Read,

These pension funds operate like insurance companies, spreading out their risk through the theory of large numbers by hiring an army of fund managers among whom they expect 5% would lose money, 40% would break even with the S&P 500, 50% would beat the S&P 500, and 5% would do spectacularly, with thousandfold returns. Every year, they fire the underperforming 5% and bring in a new crop of replacement fund managers. Also, the actuary is such that pensioners die and stop collecting retirement benefits long before the principals are consumed, so the funds get bigger and bigger over time, like a giant mushroom in a financial science fiction. These pension funds are like a virus, feeding on workers whose retirement money they control for their own institutional obsession on growth at the expense of job security. If the US ever privatizes Social Security, all US workers will be enslaved by these institutional tyrants.

Crass--

Pensions are different from personal 401k accounts that a person contributes to and can pass onto their family after they die.

Murphy

Murphy,

Yes, that's because 401K's are owned by the person.

Pensions are used to attract labor as well as wages.

Murph,

Knock it off! Capitalism in any form is evil to liberals, even if it serves their fantasies of subsistence without effort. Somewhere, somehow (they are certain) somebody is enjoying their life without the government's permission.

No wonder Corporations are trying to unload pension plans.

It owns so much equity and bonds that in many cases, such as the Disney Co, it cannot sell its shareholdings without adversely affecting the price of the rest of its holdings, much like foreign central bank holdings of dollars. Pension funds are forced to stage shareholder revolts within corporate governance to change ineffective management to get the market price of their shareholdings back up. That is how Michael Eisner lost support of 45% of the voting shares and had to resign his chairmanship of Disney.

CalPERS also opposed the reappointment of former Citicorp chairman Sanford Weill and chief executive officer Charles Prince as company directors. CalPERS held 26,712,930 Citigroup shares out of 5.05 billion shares outstanding. It said Citigroup would be "better served" by having an independent director in the place of Weill. It withheld votes for six other Citigroup directors. It also withheld support from Warren Buffett, who was running for re-election to the Coca-Cola Co's board. The fund also withheld votes for directors at 10 other companies: Sprint, Wachovia, PG&E, Burlington Resources, Charter One Financial, Mellon Financial, South Trust, State Street, Stryker and Washington Mutual. Yet no pension has gone on record to disinvest from corporations that outsource their clients' jobs.

...In the new economy of finance capitalism, with capital coming also from labor, the high return on labor's retirement funds from cross-border wage arbitrage is robbing the same workers of their jobs. As Pogo used to say, the enemy, they are us.

Crass--

The program Bush wanted was not a pension program but a 401k, personal account.

And pensions fail daily--and go BK, etc.

Personal accounts belong to the person--not the union/company who owns the pension.

I have a pension--from the company who is now BK, in liquidation. My pension belongs to the Gov't pension program where other BK pensions go to when the company goes belly up.

I won't be counting on the $788 that I am told I will receive. That program will go bust as well.

Just like Social Security will go bust.

Murphy

The program Bush wanted was not a pension program but a 401k, personal account.

NOT, what planet are you from? The program was set up like a pension account in which the holder got to chose listed plans to put their SS account money into.

There was a midnight nooner the other day.

Ha! Drudge Retort is the Alaska of the Internet.

Land of the midnight nooner!!

Now there's a weekend nooner too!!

Oh Well, technically it's always noonish somewhere on the planet.

Wot is it all the drunks say?...

"It's five o' clock somewhere!"

Be Well.

Vern,

Learn a little bit will ya.

Markets are not natural phenomena. As Karl Polanyi (1886-1964) pointed out, markets are recent developments in human history. Capitalism is a historical anomaly because while previous economic arrangements were "embedded" in social relations, with capitalism the situation is reversed - social relations are defined by economic arrangements. In human history, rules of reciprocity, redistribution and communal obligations were far more frequent than market arrangements. Furthermore, not only does capitalism not exhibit historical humanistic values, its ascendancy actually destroys such values irreversibly.

Tubber,

5 o'clock!!!!! Hell, it is noon somewhere.

Vern sed...

"Capitalism in any form is evil to liberals"

Spud doesn't know why he gets so riled up when folk like Vern continually mis-state the positions of folk on the left.

I mean... if ya think about it...He can't even get his own opinion out without mistakes wot chance does he have with other folks opinions, really?

Fer Verns benefit...

Untrammelled capitalism is every bit as stupid, unfair, and problematical as untrammelled communism or facism.

No matter wot you call it...

Too little oversight.
Too little tranparency.
Too much power
residing in too few hands
always leads to evil and misery.

ALWAYS.

Be Well.

Tubber,

My little red headed friend, You've been missed.

Nice to see ya back every now an again.

UCLA Bruins Rule!

Too bad about the UW Puppies, eh, Rex the Welcher?

Tubber,

SSSHHHHHHH! Da cat is not out of da bag yet so no tellin.

How is the vodka drink this fine eve?

Mista Crassus,

"Hell, it is noon somewhere"

In Spudworld it's always "High Noon"

Ha! Both of us tried to edumacate Vern at the same time.

Maybe one of the attempts will stick.

Spud's not particularily optimistic.

But failure isn't falling down it's staying down so Spud sez... Good Try!

Interestin' post BTW.

Be Well.

Spud exits stage left.
Deth is SINISTER Spud.
Spud is realworld actually is left handed.
The Nuns tried to beat it out of me.
The Nuns failed.

Bill,

I have a question, did you know this happened. It really makes lots of sense now for what I have been saying with Levis and stuff.

Trade is no longer a valid measure of global competition. Today, transnational firms compete with unparalleled success in the global marketplace through foreign-affiliate sales instead of exports. This has created a gap between gross domestic product (GDP) and gross national product (GNP). To mask this tilted playing field and inequitable international finance architecture, GNP has been quietly replaced by GDP as a statistical measure for growth.

Crass--

The PSA would be passed onto the family--the kids or the spouse--the estate of the owner.

Pensions normally only go to the surviving spouse--big difference.

It would be similar to your 401k or the Congress/gov't Thrift Savings Plan. They all get to keep theirs in the family after they die--that is not a Pension.

Murphy

Murphy,

You missed something in the article.

The pension holders are the very interprises that are forcing the off loading of jobs.

Hence, no SS or very little of it because wages would continue to reduce even more.

That's a good point, Crassus. Do you have a link to that article?

Pensions are going to be extinct soon--a thing of the past. And Calpers will also as they cannot keep the promises made. Last I heard they were behind.

The pension set up for the city of San Diego--like many others, is 1 billion plus in the hole.

SS is set up like a pension--a ponzi scheme really.

I contribute, but don't expect to collect, at least not the 100% they promise me in my statements.

I will however, collect my 401k. And when I die--it goes to my family.

Murphy

And many companies are stopping the pension plans and capping them off. It's rare to see a company nowadays offering a pension to entice workers to stay.

There is little loyalty from companies or workers to one another.

Murphy

Thanks, Yav. Henry Liu is well worth reading.

Bill, you're most welcome, but it was Crassius' post.

Crassus, please excuse the insertion of the letter "i". No disrespect intended.

ahaahahahaah...

This thread isn't supposed to be here -- there's a bug in the code. I'll keep it around for the Retort weekenders.

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Wow, when did we get a Saturday Nooner?

Bill,

The series is a great series, I just enjoy Henry Liu, he truely tells it like it is with no fluff.

Goes through the history and how we got there and were we need to go.

RCADE,

This thread isn't supposed to be here -- there's a bug in the code.

Just replace this thread with one of Nicevilles.

"Just replace this thread with one of Nicevilles."

WHY!?!?

"there's a bug in the code"

Is that like havin' a code in yer dose?

Ha! Deth is stuffed up Spud!

Be Well.

Just for the heck of it!

Ha Ha. I read Henry Lui. He called Marx a free marketeer. That man shot his credibility.

Deth is stuffed up Spud!

Your talking a cold....right!?

Yea Ray,

And he shot your Lassez Faire neo-classical/neo liberal type of economic down the dumper. Don't expect you to like him but what he points out is dead on.

Anybody else here see grace Hopper say "First bug found!"?

Anybody else here have a fucking clue who Grace was?

There are only so many nanoseconds.

And they're all two feet long.

He called Marx a free marketeer.

It would be nice if you would put it in context too. You might learn something.

Grace hopper.

Grace Hopper.

grace hopper.

grasshopper

Crassus,

"Your talking a cold....right!?"

Yeah, but Spud's just kidding.

It's just kinda ironic that when ya actually try to tell folk you have a "cold in your nose" it comes out like a "code in your dose".

Actaully, that's not ironic.
That's just plain silly.

Is cool tho'.

Spud likes silliness AND irony equally!

Be Well.

Crassus
What? Labor cartels fashioned after medieval guilds. That's ridiculus. It's a fantasy.

I can't change the world and neither can your kind. All I can do is observe as best I can what is happening.

"grasshopper

"grasshopper"

Ha! Deth is pebble snatchin' Spud!

Actually, considering Spuds long standing relationship with both "hops" (in it's liquid form) and "grass"...

That's pretty damned appropriate!

Be Well.

What? Labor cartels fashioned after medieval guilds. That's ridiculus. It's a fantasy.

Probably said the same thing about Unions in our country at one time.

tater

tater

tater

it's CODE in NODE

comprende?

Or are you not a Gaussian Fractal Spud?

Imagine Tim Leary taking Mandelbrot and Hawking on a Trip. With Sandoz purity.

Been downhill since the Battle of Waller creek back in '69 when Frank Erwin flipped me off.

But I am still here when so many are no longer. Why?
My dear friends Life is SO MUCH WORTH THE TROUBLE.

And I can say that honestly with no illusions of immortality if I join the correct cult.

Zat,

ye ole goat!

I know ya got a few more good good years left in ya.

Erwin flipped ya off. Was it all one sided!

Crassus

Manufacturing is going and almost gone. Unions are history. The only place where they remain entrenched is in government. I find that ironic. You Marxists blame private employers for abuses when unions are strongest on public payrolls. Their presence implies they need protection from government managers as well.

Hamurabi Code in yer Node,

"CODE In THE NODE""

Got it!

"Imagine Tim Leary taking Mandelbrot and Hawking on a Trip. With Sandoz purity"

That one is a li'l harder to cram into me wee head all at once but definitely worth the effort when ya do so.

Benny and Stevie and Leary? Oh My!
Benny and Stevie and Leary? So High!

THAT would redefine the word "trippy" fer a whole new generation.

Ever try to imagine wot that first acid trip was like when Hoffman hopped upon that bike unaware that he was about to experience the worlds first acid trip?

Spud had a similar experience with mushrooms and a mountain bike, later on, but by then there was much lore on the subject available to be learned and besides Spud was experienced inner cosmonaut as well.

"But I am still here when so many are no longer. Why?
My dear friends Life is SO MUCH WORTH THE TROUBLE."

George Burns was once asked how it felt to be 90 something years old and he replied famously that "It sure beat the alternative".

Spud concurs.

Every day above ground is a good day.

Be Well.

PS: Spud wanders off to eat cucumber salad now!! Spud'll be back after filling a hole!

Ray,

In fact, Marx was the only true free marketer among classical economists in that only he saw the need for equality of market/pricing power in the transactional relationship between capital and labor.

Their presence implies they need protection from government managers as well.

I fail to see how you think our trading of labor as a commodity should not be protected.

Under that reasoning, we should not be protecting our money trading, oil trading, high tech trading, nothing. How is it you don't see this.

Crassus

That quote from Lui doen't define a free market. A free market is defined by the absence of government interference on behalf of either side. The trades can try to form guilds to negotiate with employers, but once government interfers and says employers must recognized the guilds, it is no longer a free market.

Employers have to compete for employees as they compete for customers. Yes wages have not kept up with the cost of living. That is only because real unemployment is much higher than the reported statistics. If there were a labor shortage, they would be kissing ass for each employee they hired. I saw one economist report that if statistics were kept by 1930 standards, unemployment would be around 12%.

Lui is way off base on that one. As Rand would argue: who protects us from our protectors. Politicians take care of themselves and their friends first.

worth the effort


every fucking day tater

As Rand would argue:

Rand? What a bunch a garbage she was. Selfishism to the max and all for me none for anybody else and I am OK with that.

Now, you are truely goin down a dark side, Use the force!

"As Rand would argue"

Hahahahahahahahahahahah.

Get off the anti-Rand obsession. The fact remains that government is the most selfish form of corporation on this planet. It takes what it wants, punishes who it pleases and spends other peoples money with a vengence.

"That man shot his credibility"

Anybody who quotes Ayn Rand as an authority has zero credibility.

You ought to get off your pro-Rand, Von Mises obsession Ray. They're fringe philosopher/economists, basically quacks.

Yeah sure Reilly, use Rand to get around the strength of my argument.

Strengh??? Haha. Sorry, Ray. Your argument and Rand's is weak. Rand was a crackpot and to the extent that you agree with her you are too.

"America's Persecuted Minority: Big Business" --Ayn Rand.

lmao

Ray,

Without governments we wouldn't even have an economy.

All your neo-classical economist were nothing but elite pandering observers who refuse to address the real issue of any economy and that is labor.

No such thing as capitalism with out labor. The funny thing about it is no one wants to acknowledge that labor is the driving force not capital.

All trade is done in equal value for return but labor. Ever wonder why that is.

Reilly
At 9:10 I explained to Crassus why wages are not keeping up with the cost of living. I'm not going to wast my time with you discussing ad hominems on Rand or Mises. Stick to the fucking subject or shut up.

Ray,

Third World economies with surplus labor operate separately from a collective disadvantaged position in global trade because global capital obeys the Law of One Price while global labor is exempt from this law.

Hey shut up yourself, Ray. I'll say anything I damn well want to. Quack.

Crassus
I just explained the market conditions that account for why wages are not keeping up with the cost of living. It's not due to some inherent tendency of corporations to abuse their employers. It's due to the surplus labor in today's market. Stay focused.

Wages and working conditions are subject the same market forces as consumer prices and the quality of goods.

Labor and capital need each other. It's a moot point.

Ray,

Wages didn't keep up with inflation because oil was low in price and the likes of Walmarts low priced goods where kept down at the expense of labor over seas.

Now that oil is way on the rise and people are now even having difficulty affording Walmart goods of low price do to low wages the out cry WILL get louder.

Crassus, remember you're arguing with a religious zealot. You would have more success with a Jehovah's Witness.

"It's due to the surplus labor in today's market. Stay focused."

This coming from the guy that wants even more surplus labor via open borders. And when I point that it would devastate wages in this country, he just shrugs. This is no friend of workers.

Ray,

Are you even in todays world. There is not a surplus in the U.S. for labor. Why do you think they are freely letting in immigrants, illegal and legal.

Surplus of labor was created with the off load of our jobs with labor in the U.S. immobile but corporations got the unlimited labor of China and such.

It is not reflected truely because of the change from GNP to GDP in the measure of growth. This change also artificially inflates the American real wage to the corporate profits. A scam to hide from the real working class and what is really funny, the financial educated idiots of the market and the economy.

I now see how RIR is so ass backwards in how he thinks.

Third World economies with surplus labor operate separately from a collective disadvantaged position in global trade because global capital obeys the Law of One Price while global labor is exempt from this law.

What is the Law of One Price? People living in impoverished countries will work for less than those in richer countries. I don't see anything unusual about that. I don't think I get the question.

If we closed our borders not letting in immigrants the wages would go sky high, all business's would be competing with a depleting labor force due to the retiring boomers and very slow birth growth of our country.

(Sorry, that should read "Rand", not "a Rand", although you are pushing the envelope. But I would use "a Randian" if that were my intent)

Wages didn't keep up with inflation because oil was low in price and the likes of Walmarts low priced goods where kept down at the expense of labor over seas.

We have to compete in foreign markets whether we like to or not. I don't see how cutting ourselves off is going to help.

Corporations are always looking to cut costs so they can compete better. That's their nature.

For any employer it's a buyers market for labor. Surely you realize that.

Ray,

Law of one price example:

security would not sell in NY at $2 and the same security sell in london at $2.02.

Selling and buying the same security would make millions from london to new york. They will sell at the same price.

Well Boyd, Mr. Open Borders should love Bush's guest worker program, since it will drive down wages even further.

For any employer it's a buyers market for labor. Surely you realize that.

Ray, labor is a commodity, one that is not traded equally. Nothing else is traded this way, so why let labor be traded this way.

If electricity was cheaper in india and could move it to the U.S. and sell on our open market way cheaper than our Electrical supplier companies their would be screaming and something would be done. You don't think labor deserves this same support.

Crassus

The law of one price doesn't make sense. There are people who make a healthy living on arbitrage. Then there are currency prices that change daily.

Ray-
Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone is contesting your take on the true unemployment figures.

Unemployment is around 12% because Americans are not being employed immigrants are yes this I agree with.

But if the immigrants were not there we would be diminishing in labor force do to the baby boomer retirements and low country birth rate. We could not replenish the labor force as fast as growth and since labor is usually immobile the labor hours are shipped over seas.

Our market is screaming but there are less jobs now than there were in 2000. How can this be? Labor hours are shipped to china and people are layed off here.

"Corporations are always looking to cut costs so they can compete better. That's their nature"

You mean so they can increase profits and meet Wall Street's ever higher expectations. That's a function of the current finance capitalist system which has displaced an older system in which corporations considered sharing their profits with their workers to be good business.

You consistently make the mistake of confusing man made systems, organizations and policies with "laws of nature".

Maybe that's how you see labor. There are are qualitive and quantitative differences between skill levels. For example, my employer could have hired someone much younger for much less. With me he knew I could produce much more, more reliably.

Whether you are hiring people or buying consumer goods, there are always value considerations. That doesn't seem to define a commodity to me.

That's a function of the current finance capitalist system which has displaced an older system in which corporations considered sharing their profits with their workers to be good business.

I can't imagine when that was. Some companies have profit sharing, but it's not universal.

Law of One Price
The Law of One Price says that identical goods should sell for the same price in two separate markets when there are no transportation costs and no differential taxes or tariffs applied in the two markets.

Crassus

I know the problems facing this country. These are forces beyond our control. Don't expect anything from Bush or his successor. You're on your own.

I mean profit sharing in the general sense in terms of higher wages, hiring more workers rather than forcing current employers to do more work, worker benefits, etc. All of this is getting cut back in order to meet Wall Street demands.

"These are forces beyond our control"

No, they can be managed. They are not forces like gravity. They are a result of human made policies and human made policies can be changed. This is defeatism.

Ray,

From the article and this seems to be a great idea.

The idea of economic development is not to redistribute wealth by making the rich poor, but to create new wealth by making the poor rich at an accelerated pace to reverse the widening gap between rich and poor. Current terms of globalized trade widen the income and wealth gap by driving wages down and making low wages the main factor in measuring competitiveness. The neo-liberal financial system provides credit only to firms that profit from driving wages down and withholds credit from firms that raise wages. What the world needs is a credit-allocation regime and a profit-measuring system to link corporate profitability with raising wage levels rather than lowering them.

Crassus

I know people who price shop who see local differences for the same goods. In my area you can buy gas for a dime less a gallon than the majors at Getty. There are plenty of exceptions for price shoppers who look.

And why is it that so many people think that to raise the wage of the poor means to take money from the rich,

I haven't seen that notion proferred.

No, they can be managed. They are not forces like gravity. They are a result of human made policies and human made policies can be changed. This is defeatism.

The current conditions have a momentum built up over the past half century. LOL

"The neo-liberal financial system provides credit only to firms that profit from driving wages down and withholds credit from firms that raise wages."

Exactly. Let a profitable company announces large layoffs to increase profits, and Wall Street applauds. This is why Wall Street analysts like Walmart more than Costco.

"The current conditions have a momentum built up over the past half century. LOL

Actually I would date it from the Reagan and Thatcher era, when corporate globalization and free trade was vigorously promoted. That's about 25 years of bad policy. Those policies can be reversed, but I'm not optimistic, especially if a lot of people are as cynical as you.

I know the problems facing this country. These are forces beyond our control. Don't expect anything from Bush or his successor. You're on your own.

What bull shit Ray. It sounds like you have just been shown something new and it does not contour to your way of how you would like the economy so you'll just give up and never ever do a part in expecting change.

For every mind that changes their attitude to a more labor driven society, as it should be, 10 more are created by that one mind.

It is like a store and a customer, if the store gives bad service they lose the customer for life but also usually lose 10 others because the one tells his family and friends about the bad service and its becomes a rotten store.

Walmart is a perfect example, all this poor stewardship was not invented or purposeful by corporate haters. It has validity because the things happen by the Corporation.

"Half century" my ass..

Half millennium is more like it.............

BillO,


The genie is out of the bottle, so to speak. Fact is a labor pool exists where (China, India, etc.) where workers are willing to perform the same work as Americans, for less money.

How do you propose dealing with this fact?
If you were running the show, how would you go about affecting 'policy' so that wages for American workers would go up?

Ray,

I know people who price shop who see local differences for the same goods. In my area you can buy gas for a dime less a gallon than the majors at Getty. There are plenty of exceptions for price shoppers who look.

And we are talking to you about the market why? The whole point about law of one price went right over your head.

If I could buy all the gas from all the tanks at one gas stations selling it for $2.50/gal and sell it at another station across town for $2.60 it would be done all the time but this is similar but I think it makes the point.

And why is it that so many people think that to raise the wage of the poor means to take money from the rich, I just don't understand this thinking at all.

It's just a fact of life. People are not born with equal abilities or equal luck. There are always going to be disparities in the distrubution of wealth.

There was a time when the poor couldn't afford refrigators, cars, televisions etc. The earliest buyers were the rich. As time went and profits increased, prices come down.

We owe that to the entrepreneural class. People whe earned their wealth by increasing the wealth of the poor.

Crassus
You are talking about arbitrage. That's a common practice.

What am I supposed to do Crassus? I invested heavily in silver. I'm lucky to have a steady job. I'm paying off all my debts. I keep my living expenses low. I'm going to do all I can to keep from sinking on this Titanic. It's hit the iceberg. Too late for what shall we do to fix it.

Let a profitable company announces large layoffs to increase profits, and Wall Street applauds. This is why Wall Street analysts like Walmart more than Costco.

Are you against savings Reilly? Do you think savings are bad?

Ray and Jeff J.,

Henry Ford is the perfect example of raising poor without hurting the rich.

Lest we should forget, this is a very American idea. Henry Ford did it in the US by voluntarily paying higher wages than the market norm so that his workers could afford to buy the cars they produced. The US experience has proved that the poor can be made richer without the rich getting poorer. This can be done by enlarging the pie while benignly re-dividing it so that no one gets less than before while the poor get more faster, rather than just re-dividing a shrinking pie. The US itself provided very good lessons on how it could be done.

Crassus

I remind you that Ford had no competition for a while. Quit possibly he felt generous because sales were so good.
Maybe you can explain why his employees wanted to form a union. Could it be they were getting greedy? Or could it have been that high wages were drawing more labor then he knew what to do with. So he started cutting wages. I don't know.

This is not unusual in a new industry. In the early days of silicon valley, programmers were making big salaries.

Jeff,
To answer your question, I would eliminate the concept of corporate personhood, thereby decreasing their political clout. I would renegotiate or pull out of NAFTA, CAFTA, and the WTO, and work to reform the IMF and World Bank. I would consider gradual implemention of tariffs on imported goods to decrease labor arbitrage. Eliminate all tax breaks that encourage outsourcing. Use the bully pulpit to discourage outsourcing. Make the extent of outsourcing much more transparent and make sure consumers know the practices of businesses they patronize. There's a start.

Crassus

I remind you that Ford had no competition for a while. Quit possibly he felt generous because sales were so good.
Maybe you can explain why his employees wanted to form a union. Could it be they were getting greedy? Or could it have been that high wages were drawing more labor then he knew what to do with. So he started cutting wages. I don't know.

This is not unusual in a new industry. In the early days of silicon valley, programmers were making big salaries.

BillO,

Thanks for the answer.

Yeah Reilly. Plenty of ideas that hardly a politician gives a shit about. The're all on the take.

"would you want the government telling you that you had to "share" all of your earnings with your employees who didn't spend the time and money to get to the position you have put yourself in?"

The government already requires business to share a portion of its earnings above what they would have to pay anyway. Both the minimum wage and mandatory overtime requirements increase the share of earnings employees receive.

You could consider it government mandated profit sharing.

Ray,

What do you think of Reilley's proposed 'fix'?

Thanks Jeff,
I have other ideas but I didn't want to write a novel ;)

Interesting to compare your response to Ray's. Your cynicism, Ray, is over the top. There are a lot of good people in public service who are there for idealistic reasons. They frequently sacrifice higher salaries they could make in the private sector. Businessmen on the other hand, create businesses to earn a profit. And yet that's more honorable than public service? You have a very dark view of the world, Ray.

That's just silly, Bill. You should direct your rage at the UN, and other international bodies/agreements that have no effect over our sovereignty.

You could then start a radio show, being a reasonable shitbag that has been schooled to understand that the rabble not only should not be heard from, but should be condescended to whenever they manage a peep about what the better men understand are immutable laws of nature and commerce. Only then can you be a responsible citizen.

"Yeah Reilly. Plenty of ideas that hardly a politician gives a shit about. The're all on the take."

Well, the question is whether they are good reforms or not. That's a separate question as to the possibility of getting them implemented. Two separate debates. A guy like Ralph Nader would probably support all of those ideas. But him and others like him can't achieve reforms as long as people like you just sit on your hands and spout gloom and doom and hopelessness.

You know Reilly, contracting is popular with American employers and European employers are heavy into it. That gets around all the regulations that say employees are entitled to share the wealth.

Bottom line. Your Employer makes a value judgment on what you are worth to him. Then he decides whether to hire you or not. Force him to exceed that value and he'll find a way to adjust.

Your Marxist workers paradise is a mirage.

Thanks Boyd, I'll consider that ;). LOL.

Maybe you can explain to me what is dishonorable about profits? If they were honestly earned, I wouldn't give a shit what they were.

"Your Marxist workers paradise is a mirage."

Hahahahahaha. You're a hoot, Ray. Are you a lifetime member of the John Birch Society?

Ray,

Ford principle:

The first is something Henry Ford figured out a century after Ricardo. Ford realized that workers who were paid at subsistence levels could not afford to buy the cars they made in his factories. Ford worked out a wage-price ratio under which his workers would have enough money after basic living expenses to buy and finance the cars they produced. In the new industrial democracy, Ford was able to sell many more cars than his competitors, who eventually went bankrupt selling only to the very rich. By paying his workers well, Ford became super-rich, more than his competitors who sold only to the rich. The more workers he hired, the more cars he sold.

Before globalization, US auto giants helped build the world's most affluent middle class by paying wages far above subsistence levels and by providing generous vacation, health and pension plans. Auto-sector wage patterns spurred other sectors to raise compensation levels, creating continuous rises in consumer demand.

Did someone say profits were dishonorable? I think the issue was and is, where are the profits going? Who's getting squeezed and who is getting fat? Read Crassus's post on Henry Ford.

I'm telling you Reilly. This economy is fucked. It's debt structure is exploding and this madman president is getting us deeper into a war in the ME. Call it doom and gloom, but thems the facts. I think I have mine and my kids asses covered. It's going to get ugly in the years ahead.

It's time to turn in.

This is where we are today.

This happy approach to high wage income has been reversed in past decades by the likes of Wal-Mart, with $256 billion in annual sales and 20 million shoppers visiting its stores worldwide each day. Wal-Mart is now doing just the opposite of what Henry Ford did. Wal-Mart profits from its regressively low wages and meager employee benefits, paying its US retail workers less than $18,000 a year on average (below the 2005 US poverty line of $22,610 for families with three children) and its outsourced supplier workers overseas less than $4 a day, or $1,000 a year. Wal-Mart workers cannot afford even the low-price goods sold in Wal-Mart stores. Wal-Mart takes away the good shirt off the US worker's back plus his or her health insurance by outsourcing his or her job and sells back to him or her a lower-priced shirt made overseas without the health insurance.

Crassus

Okay but what changed that the employees wanted to unionize?

I know that globalization is putting downward pressure on American wages. It can't be stopped. Cutting off trade would reduce low price imports and raise hell in the CPI.

You have a very dark view of the world, Ray.

Posted by bill_oreilly at 2006-04-02 11:40 PM | Reply

Wow...how you say the pot calling the kettle black?

BTW - Bill, I don't totally disagree with your "fix" on America. Corporate America also needs more government incentives to keep jobs in country and to keep wages above average. Also, when cutting costs, jobs need to be on the bottom of the list. The more employed, the more revenue for the government.

Crassus

What I think you are missing is that price controls have always been disastrous. Nixon was the last to try them. It is because prices are subjective, it is impossible to know what the right price of anything is. You are fixated on the idea of labor being a commodity which it is not. As I argued before there are differences in quantitity and quality between people.

Till next time.

" It can't be stopped"

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a law of nature.

There was and is nothing inevitable or necessary about NAFTA, the WTO, etc.

Ray,

By making all those products our selfs raising wages of our workers so they buy those products we will need to employ more workers for the higher consumption.

letting go of our workers to lower our wages so china can build our products to sell back to us is just idiotic.

We are shooting ourselves in the foot, then the knee, and will continue on up until even those cheap import products can't be consumed but by the few.

Supply does not always create demand.

"Wow...how you say the pot calling the kettle black?"

Why would you say that, Stir? I outlined some reforms that you agree with. I'm not the one saying the sky is falling. The economy is not in good shape, but unlike Ray, I don't think collapse is inevitable.

Bill- Don't forget Cafta.

"We are shooting ourselves in the foot, then the knee, and will continue on up until even those cheap import products can't be consumed but by the few."

Well you know what Lenin said about capitalists and rope. The interesting thing is that Ray is endorsing those very policies which, if not reversed, will lead to the conclusion you draw. But then he'll blame it on "Marxists".

Ray,

I am not for price controls, I am for labor controls. It will serve 2 purposes.

Raises the wages of 3rd world nations and continues to keep jobs here.

If U.S. companies gain profit from going to over seas labor standards for that product should be based upon wages here to over there through Law of one price.

Average labor to build product here is so and so well they must match that average through their dollar to our dollar value or the product is not allowed into the country. NO TAX, NO TARIFFS. Force the world to get out of the 3rd world standard and up to ours not us moving to them.

By the way we control the money supply through heging and fiat we continue to make those 3rd world countries stay in the exact plight they started out in.

They get our dollars for their material products but can't spend our dollars but here to the U.S.

Hence, why does China own so much of us.

"The government already requires business to share a portion of its earnings above what they would have to pay anyway. Both the minimum wage and mandatory overtime requirements increase the share of earnings employees receive."

Obviously this hasn't fixed the problems that you allege, and prior to your 11:28 post, I'd have said that you're in favor of more government intrusion into business. I like your ideas though.

Stir,

How is our GNP? Make that neo classical comparison and it doesn't look so good.

Why did we change our GNP comparison to GDP?

If your going to look at data, look at why they made the changes.

Stir- first of all, as I've discussed before, unemployment numbers are a joke. We also have a HUGE debt, our country produces next to nothing, and most americans are up to their eyeballs in personal debt.

Social Security, Medicare are going to be a serious trouble soon, and we don't have the money to fix them.

Unlike ray, i don't believe our problems are irreversible...but thay have to be admitted to before we can correct them.

"...and most americans are up to their eyeballs in personal debt."

Savings are in the negative fer the first time since the Great Depression.

There's a big clue right there.

Spud goes back to sleep now.

Be Well.

Corporate profit is huge, and they are having difficulty finding new reinvestment opportunities because wages are too low to keep up the needed consumer demands.

How is it this is a good thing.

Social Security, Medicare are going to be a serious trouble soon

Not true yet. Immigration solves this problem if we make them citizens. Citizenship gives them rights, minimum wage and benefits so corporations can't pan handle under the law.

More people, more revenue, higher birth rates diminishes the falling of of the retiring boomers.

Forcing our wages to drop just hurts these programs.

Set up huge tax penalties for CEO's who are making the mega millions. After all, how much money does one person need. Hurt one for the good of the many.

RCADE,

This thread isn't supposed to be here -- there's a bug in the code. I'll keep it around for the Retort weekenders.

Thanks for keeping it around, 147 posts, not too bad eh!

We had some good discussion here.

Obviously this hasn't fixed the problems that you allege,

Let the business give the money out not the government. Reward of higher wages in terms of work and diminish the tax burden on the small business owner helps both sides and keeps the governments hands off of the money.

Crass - GNP includes, and GDP excludes, net receipts of income from the rest of the world, which
decreased $25.6 billion in the fourth quarter after increasing $7.6 billion in the third.

Alex - what's the joke about the unemployment rate? 4.8% seems like a good number compared to the EU rate of 8%.

I'm not denying the our debt or our deficit but the economy IS in great shape.

We have to reward the small entrepreneur enterprising business's because they are the ones who usually come up with the newer technological advances. Block the Global corporate elite companies from being able to buy them out for the new advances which never make it to market because it is counter to the elites profit ability.

Stir,

Trade is no longer a valid measure of global competition. Today, transnational firms compete with unparalleled success in the global marketplace through foreign-affiliate sales instead of exports. This has created a gap between gross domestic product (GDP) and gross national product (GNP). To mask this tilted playing field and inequitable international finance architecture, GNP has been quietly replaced by GDP as a statistical measure for growth.

Crass - I don't buy into the "masked tilted playing field". If GDP vs. GNP more reflects what is actually happening, then why not use those numbers.

The net receipts of income from the rest of the world, not included in GDP, really do not reflect what OUR economy is doing.

I don't think there is a conspiracy to hide our economic numbers.

"Let the business give the money out not the government."

You're completely missing the point, which seems to happen a lot with you. When I referred to "governmental intrusion," I didn't mean "the government giving out money." I meant statutory reforms that would require more from businesses with regard to employee pay and benefits, which is inherently what are looking for if you want politicians to solve your problems for you.

"Reward of higher wages in terms of work and diminish the tax burden on the small business owner helps both sides and keeps the governments hands off of the money."


Excellent. Small business creates more jobs and innovations anyway. Tilt the playing field toward small business and workers and away from mega transnational corporations who are increasingly becoming mini-states not subject to laws of any nation. 51 of the world's 100 largest economies are corporations.

"Alex - what's the joke about the unemployment rate? 4.8% seems like a good number compared to the EU rate of 8%."

Ray mentioned above an estimate that our real unemployment rate is 12%. Even a Federal Reserve study said the rate is understated by 1 to 3 percentage points. The EU counts their numbers differently.

Joe

that would require more from businesses with regard to employee pay and benefits, which is inherently what are looking for if you want politicians to solve your problems for you.

I would say that about 20 years ago you would have been totally correct. Now it's a whole different story and just the opposite. BOTH parties, but especially the Republicans, have become nothing but corporate shills -- giving everything for the corporate boys in return for perks and politicial donations. The minimum wage has not been increased for American workers in 10 years.

Under Bush the corporations have been able to dump rule after rule and regulation after regulation to make their businesses more profitable. The Bush and his gang are globalists and their main goal is to destroy the American middle class -- just take a look at the provisions of this sham amnesty/guestworker program that will allow the corporations to have a non-stop supply of cheap foreign labor.

Did you know that this guestworker program makes absolutely no provisions in it for the corporations who bring in these low wage foreign workers to have any health benefit plans for their employees? This guestworker plan allows the corporations to bring in any foreigners from any country if willing to work at below the wages American workers would normally earn and then get to dump all their medical care, schools, everything on the tax payers?

If that's not corporate welfare by the politicans for the corporate boys I don't know what is. The politicians now in office (at least the corporatists among them) aren't doing a thing for the American workers, not a thing.

"if you want politicians to solve your problems for you."

You make that sound bad by your wording. In fact, the political process is exactly what we use to solve problems that need to be addressed on a large scale level and cannot be solved by individuals. Nothing wrong with that at all. What's needed is to clean up the political process to remove the power of concentrated wealth, i.e., we need to re-democratize the system.

Ray mentioned above an estimate that our real unemployment rate is 12%.

I don't hold much credibility to an unknown source. Those that don't have jobs either aren't willing to work or are holding out for a "management" position or have a masters degree without any experience.

Everyone I know has a job. If you're looking for work, New Orleans is hiring.

I see THOUSANDS of jobs in the help wanted pages of my Sunday paper. If you are able and willing, there are jobs out there.

Stir is exactly correct, take Bill O'dickstalker as an example. He put his UCLA degree to work by becoming a fluffer in the gay/S&M porno industry. Bill is a real success.


Congrats Bill O'dickstalker, gay bitch fluffer!

"Untrammelled capitalism is every bit as stupid, unfair, and problematical as untrammelled communism or facism."

Amen. Capitalism as religion is destroying the planet and human quality of life.

Congrats Bill O'dickstalker, gay bitch fluffer!

Gee, ZombieGoblin, for being the new guy on the blog block you sound faiguely familiar, hmmmmm? hahahahahahaha

Hey Zombie - I knew you'd be back.

Hey Rex the Welcher AKA ZombieGoblin. As nasty as ever I see. I sure hope you enjoy my Bruins win the championship tomorrow, welcher.

"Everyone I know has a job"


Hahahahahahahaha. Therefore there is no unemployment, eh? That's funny. The same argument that RightisWrong makes. It's called solpsism. Look it up.


Larry,
Thanks for posting that study that I mentioned.

I am just stretching my legs, I spent the last three years in a coffin. I am here for one reason and one reason only. The resurection of Rex Zeitgeist. I am just waiting on Dr. Charles Morangi to arrive from Kenya, he will assist me in completing the ancient ritual of zombification.


The raising of the dead.

I need to assemble a team of willing participants. These individuals will assist myself and Dr. Morangi in bringing Zeitgeist back from the land of the dead. I need ten people to help complete the circle of death.

Larry,
Thanks for posting that study that I mentioned.

Posted by bill_oreilly at 2006-04-03 02:08 AM | Reply


No Sweat glad to show these Sap suckers wrong like usual. It's ALMOST as good as Sex LOL Shazammmmm

Larry

Bill - who do you know that doesn't have a job?

Now that you have that list in yer head ask yourself this: would I hire that person to work for me?

If the answer is NO. Ask yourself why? Do they have reliable transportation? good hygiene? skills? dependable?

See my point...

Count me in Rex. I have an awesome set of tools...

Excellent, but you mean 'count me in Z.G.N.', of curse. Soon the forces of good and evil will be aligned in the exact way as to bring about the raising of Zeitgeist from the dead. And he will be bringing right wing HELL with him.


BANK ON IT,
Zombie Goblin Nil

Unholy shit, I don't even remember when that drawing was rendered. Damn paparazzi. A good likeness, even though I now have a beard.

dude - have you been dropping yellow sunshine the past few days? If so, let me walk you through it.

Keep in mind you are a living organism on planet earth. We all love you and the TV is your friend. Ignore the talking pizza box as he is NOT your friend. The fridge IS your friend. Now go to your friend (the fridge) and kindly remove a bottled beverage. Open it and pour the contents into your mouth.

There. Feel better?

"See my point..."

No. There are millions of highly qualified workers unemployed or undermployed. That's just a fact, Jack.

BillJack,

I believe we are talking about unemployed workers. What is "undermployed?"

Is that someone who is employed but feels they deserve more pay because they think they are over qualified for the job?

Like I said there are thousands of jobs out their if you are willing and able.

This country has MANY opportunities for those so inclined to take advantage. If you are one to complain about your minimum wage of $5.50 per hour then you will always be a slave to the minimum wage.

I run a small business, and if I hire someone at minimum wage (which I haven't, my workers earn $11 per hour minimum), its because I can't afford to pay any more than that. If a person shows a willingness to work, dependability and loyalty, then I will pay them more.

WHat type of Business is it STirinthepot?? If it's on the down low I will understand if You want to keep it Hush Hush LOL J/K I am genuinely curious.

Larry

Laryy,
Was on lunch and just saw the article you poasted. I was in the box at the time and only saw the original chematograph results. The ones taken weeks later back to a lab showed something different then the originals. There are also those found by the Polish troops up north and the 2 that were in IED's. It just seems like any time they are brought up the only defense the left can give is well they are old. They were, that is probably why they were left behind by the convoys that went into Syria.
To call me a coward because I had to make a formation is weak. Again when you put in sometime in Iraq come back with something like that but it sounds stupid coming from the comfort of your own home.

"I run a small business, and if I hire someone at minimum wage (which I haven't, my workers earn $11 per hour minimum), its because I can't afford to pay any more than that."

That doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else. Huge companies with CEO's that make millions of dollars could technically spread that money around to the lower workers, but they choose not to. The guy pushing carts isn't making minimum wage because they "can't afford to pay him any more than that," it's because it would be incompatible with their greedy business model.

Perhaps there should be different requirements governing the running of a business depending on how small or how large it is, given the impact that such large companies can have on the overall economy, i just don't know about economics enough to know what those requirements should be, and I typically advocate less governmental intrusion and would hate to see a compromise in that area.

Stir,

fire your web designer.

Oooooooooooooo Baby I loves it.(No I am NOT coming On to You) Boy those look ABFAB. Wow I would so love to have a LogCabin Hand built without electrical tools. That would rock. Kuddos on Your Venture. I hope it's a Logging Success.

Larry

Joe - really? I hacked it myself. Is it really that bad? If so, what should I change?

Mohawk keep believing the Balderdash about MD going to SYria. I am sure it helps You sleep better at night. Instead of facing the facts that You got Lied to and can't come to terms with it. I know what it's like being Lied to latter to find out they were Lying the whole time. SOmeday You guys will see the truth and then I hope You can do some deep soul searching.

Larry

WMD Geez My typing sucks

Larry

Larry,
Hard to say I was lied to I was looking at the satelite footage as the convoys were leaving. I guess I was just seeing things.

WMD Geez My typing sucks

What's new?

Keep soul searching...You will find many supporters. Rock on!

Larry,
Hard to say I was lied to I was looking at the satelite footage as the convoys were leaving. I guess I was just seeing things.

Posted by Mohawk at 2006-04-03 03:54 AM | Reply



LMAO Keep dreaming even Charles Duelfer said they were not moved. Funny That huh

Larry

Stir,

Sorry for the harsh comment. If you made the page yourself, it's fine.

I hope this doesn't come off as being "too critical." The front page is really long. It's more like a list of things you have to scroll through than a usable page. The links should all be in one area. You have some of them at the top and then a few more (like checking availability) lower down. I would think that if someone wanted to check the availability of a cottage they would think to check in the main links area to do that. Or maybe the part where you have the 4 named cottages and then the links below them should be a separate page altogether, that you have one link to at the top. It would clean it up a little. The news article thing can be its own page too, as can the long list of links at the bottom that is making your front page so long. That weather thing would look nicer in one of the corners. It's good to have the very first part of your webpage to just be "one page long," it is less overwhelming to the user and looks cleaner and more professional. By no means should you feel obligated to use any or all of this advice, as it sounds like your business is doing fine. I apologize if this sounds condescending or anything, I'm just trying to help.

To everyone else, sorry for the off topic post.

Joe,

Good points. Thanks for the advice. I'm working on a new front page as we speak. My front page has evolved over the past 6 years. The extra links and the news article are there for the web crawlers so I show up in more search results.

Stir