"I am profoundly convinced that burning bridges in politics is the easiest thing to do, but it has no perspective, it has no future," he said. "Preserving our contacts with Hamas, we are willing in the near future to invite the authorities of Hamas to Moscow to carry out talks."

Damnit, now we are being out-politicked by Russia. Geez.

There we go!Support the fuckin HEADCHOPPERS you commies!

We might also remember that Russia is helping Iran acquire nuclear energy. The only two nations with the means to keep Bush in check are Russia and China.

WE, WE should be inviting Hamas to talk with us- they have a logical complaint - let them air it with us. Israel has much too much influence on the USA in this and previous administrations.

So What does Putin expect to GAIN from talking with Hamas?? What a flip flopper!

Wasn't there another Terrorist uprising today in Chechnya?? And more lies from the press on how many dead? The terrorists heading towards another school?? And the information suddenly stops??


Just sooo we are all straight--only the "low level" people will talk with Hamas...Because Putin is sooo smart not to talk with them himself. A little kumbayah and a little whisper here and there. Does he think they will change their rhetoric if he steps forward??

Maybe he thinks they will Glob onto Communism?? And become a satellite country for Russia since they are losing Chechnya??

It is either for money, resources or power.

All the power to him to change Hamas--they need it!

Murphy

Murph.........Putin + Iran + oil + nuclear reactor building = talks with Hamas


Basic math......

Rex

so true rex,
mate, did you check out the emerging futures markets? i reckon you'd make a killing of india and the tiger economies..........
putin is ex-kgb. gw said he saw his soul; you work it out

WE, WE should be inviting Hamas to talk with us- they have a logical complaint - let them air it with us. Israel has much too much influence on the USA in this and previous administrations.

Posted by sitdown at 2006-02-10 10:03 PM | Reply


Yeah--and Isreal is not FAR enough into the SEA for Hamas. That is their mantra.That is their complaint.

Hamas will bite Putin in the ass!

Murphy

May as well. They were elected fair and square. Just like Bushling wanted.

When Bush looked into Putin's eyes and 'got a sense of his soul' maybe Putin looked into Bush's eyes and 'got a sense of his brain'.

When I looked into Bush's eyes I thought to myself "there's nobody home".

Controlling the world is hard werk for poor ol' George . . . sort of like trying to herd cats. He must be exhausted.

"They were elected fair and square. Just like Bushling wanted."
Exactly!
And what do you think the government in Iraq will turn out to be?

"When I looked into Bush's eyes I thought to myself "there's nobody home"."

And they're locked out.

The only two nations with the means to keep Bush in check are Russia and China.

Posted by Ray at 2006-02-10 09:43 PM | Reply

Ahhh but your forget Saudia Arabia. Without them the Carlysle Group windfall for Buschco dries up.

Why else would the US invade to "spread democracy" and ignore the totalitarian oppressive monarchy at the southern border?

For every Israeli that Hamas kills the Israelis kill 100 Palestinians. Israel uses indefinate rendition without charges, assassinations, torture, helicopter gunships, tanks, and a nuclear arsenal to fall back on in case anyone actually threattened their existence. The Palistenians use rocks, small guns and explosives as they cope with 50% unemployment and a wall. Any Germans willing to give up their homeland for the sake of peace in the Middle East and the Jewish People should get with the program? Chalk one up for the evil Putin.

He really scared the Saudis with that "we are addicted to oil from unstable parts of the world" - NOT

But now OPEC can cut production because of what he said, and the price will be $100 a barrel in a minute. Another good one, W. Then he will blame OPEC for the deficit.

For every Israeli that Hamas kills the Israelis kill 100 Palestinians.

What utter horseshit! Not only demonstratively false, but completely lacking in any contextual framework. Damn! Where's GZ when you need him?

"For every Israeli that Hamas kills the Israelis kill 100 Palestinians. "

Incredible exaggeration ....

"Israel uses indefinate rendition without charges, assassinations, torture, helicopter gunships, tanks, and a nuclear arsenal to fall back on in case anyone actually threattened their existence. The Palistenians use rocks, small guns and explosives as they cope with 50% unemployment and a wall."

Once upon a time there was a great big super power called the United States and there was another tiny little country called Vietnam. The United States had ...

"indefinate rendition without charges, assassinations, torture, helicopter gunships, tanks, and a nuclear arsenal to fall back on in case anyone actually threattened their existence."

While the itsy bitsy teeny poor little Vietnamese
had "rocks, small guns and explosives as they cope with 50% unemployment and a wall."

Hey wait a sec ... I just read those poor victimized Palestinians who have merely minding their own business since they became Palestinians which was only about 40 years ago,were launching Qasam millsiles from Gaza into Israel .. so how do you figure its only rocks BAYVIKING ?


BUZZZZZ ... ANOTHER EXAGGERATION ....


"Any Germans willing to give up their homeland for the sake of peace in the Middle East and the Jewish People should get with the program? "

Why would Germans have anything to do with Jews and Israel ? Jew have been in Israel longer then Islam has been a religion.
In fact can you tell us all where these Palestinian Arabs GOT THEIR LAND FROM BAYVIKING?
Please enlighten us - or did they just MAGICALLY appear there one day?

Jews HAVE been saying in their Passover ritual for centures - CENTURIES (think Last Supper) "Next Year in Jerusalem"
Every Jew in the diaspora says these words every year ... now I challange you BAYVIKING to instead of exaggerating and showing all of us how much you depsice Isreal to find the words "Jerusalem" in the Koran ...


"Chalk one up for the evil Putin."

This is merely paybakc for Putin as the US does not consider the Chechins to be terrorists ... so now we're even.

And if you really believe the Palestinians are just using rocks and small weaponry than I suppose its the Ukrainians who are launching Qasam missiles into Israel from Gaza every single day. You see this is where your argument falls apart. You call for the withdrawal and you say ... if Israel would just withdraw the Palestinians wouldn't have all this frustration and need to put their young people out in the streets with bombs etc etc. Then the Israelis withdraw from Gaza .. and so here's where we can all see if your argument is real and what do they do? Immediately smuggle weapons from Egypt and launch missiles into Israel ... end of argument. They are mobs of armed fanatics who are under no one's control and Israel could never make any deal with anyone since no one is in charge. Basically what you have there is anarchy.

Perfect timing, GZ.

And I also challange you BAYVIKING, just once, to tell us all what an incredible scumbag thief leader Arafat was - a man who singlehandedly has cheated his people out of Statehood not once but many times.

Not a single peep from all of you Israel haters about this. Its unbelievable how you give this murdering scumbag a free pass after what he's done to your poor little victimized Palestinians ....

But then I again I suppose its always easier to blame those big bad evil Jews ... with all their nukes and rockets and renditions (that's a new one)

and now the moment of truth BAY .. all exaggerating aside.

Given you had the choice of spending the weekend in Gaza with your buddies, or the weekend in Tel Aviv .. which would you opt for?

Jeeez suddely its become awfully quiet on this thread ...

Must be my nuclear arsenal.

"Hamas will bite Putin in the ass!"

Some how I doubt anybodies going to be biting Putin in the ass. Their are no good guys on the world stage, just players trying to win the game. Putin understands this well. Americans don't seem to.

DOGMAN

Must be my nuclear arsenal.

Not exactly. I think it is more like shitting against the wind.

"Jew have been in Israel longer then Islam has been a religion."

Just to be fair, lets apply that principle to the entire globe.

DOGMAN

"Jeeez suddely its become awfully quiet on this thread ..."

DOGMAN

Not quiet - I was busy torturing Larry .. See Wikipedia thread for a great laugh.

All I was saying is suddenly its as if the Israelis - or I suppose I'll try this term and perhaps some may get it .. the Hebrews - have no claim to a land they ruled but Arabs who never ruled have a claim. Frankly I don't believe one needs to go back to who was there first although that is certainly an argument. I'm perfectly satisfied with the fact that the landlord - the Brits settled the entire problem by dividing the land - a land that was inhabited by both Jews and Palestinians and much of it had been sold to Jews .. like it or not that's just the case. Contemporary Jews had already been living there, many Jews had bought land there, many Jewish organizations were buying land there ... so this story about Jews throwing ALL the Palestinians off their land is much like the current cartoon crisis - trumped up and exaggerated to paint a picture of the Arabs as the poor victims and the Jews as the evil Nazi like demons. Were there some who got fucked out of land - you bet there were, but it happened and its still not a reason to deny and distort all reality to fit some fantasy story ...

Finally I never seem to get any answer to this question. This land that supposedly belonged to the Arabs living there - where did they get it from? Or should I say - who did they steal it from?

Ahhh nahh that never matters ... they're the poor little victims of the evil Zionists ... and they can do NO wrong

Nah GZLives You was busy making a bigger ass out of Yourself is all.

Larry

Yeah right Larry ... keep dreaming my friend.

Not only did I prove your ridiculous assertion that Israel "stole" Gaza was absurd ... incredible stupidity I must say,
BUT
by making you a ZIONIST PIONEER in your favorite place for credible source material, Wikipedia - I proved you're an idiot about that as well.

Here's what it states in Wikipedia for all to read
BEHOLD STRAIGHT FROM THE PAGES OF WIKIPEDIA
Larry's great site for credible source material

"Proto-Zionist groups such as Larry Mohr's Hibbat Zion were active in the 1880s in Eastern Europe where emancipation had not occurred to the extent it did in Western Europe (or at all). The massive anti-Jewish pogroms following the assassination of Tsar Alexander II made emancipation seem farther than ever and influenced Judah Leib Pinsker to publish the pamphlet Auto-Emancipation in January 1, 1882. The pamphlet became influential for the Political Zionism movement."

Imagine .. Larry Mohr all this time is actually a ZIONIST PIONEER ...

Way to go Lar ... lololol

You are so full of god damned shit it's not even funny. Israel di9d steal the aGaza Strip they had no rights to it is that so ghard for You to understand You arte a jealous person thats all. WHen something goes contrary to the "Jewish" way You have a fucking cow. You thyink the Jewish People are special and no one else should have their rights I understand You perfectly You have No God damned right to bitch about the source that I used because You used it before me so You can kiss my ass Buddy. You don't have no legs to stand on You understand GZLives. You just can not stomache the fact that Israel is done wrong and being punished for it. Becqwause4 You think the Jewish people are some sanctamonious People. For the Record I don't care who or what someone worships but by God no one is Above anyone and no one is below anyone You got that GZLives. You are no better than me and no worse than me. But by God Israel must follow the rules they agreed to just like the United States etc etc etc. Your "Darling israel" is in the wrong alot of times bhut yet You don't seem to grasep that fact it's always someone elses fault not Israel Well Buddy You can Kiss my ass GZLives.

Larry

Read the UN Resolution 242 sometime GZLives You might I said MIGHT Learn something.

Larry

Now lets examine this shall we ..

"You thyink the Jewish People are special and no one else should have their rights I"

No Larry I don't but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and read the most incredible bullshit without challenging it - and if you think that's arrogance be my guest - then I'm arrogant and I'll continue to be arrogant and if you can't see clearly and easily why my vigilence is important - given the worldwide attack on Jews - then your more naive then I thought you were. have a listen to your friend in Iran .. have a listen to those fascists on the street who would cut you to ribbons - why do you think THEY are special? Because they want to kill you? To see everything you believe in twisted and turned against you? Funny thing about so many - when a Jew stands up and challanges the lies - they are painted as arrogant and other mischaracterizations.
Here you are lying your face off about shit and when I porve to you over and over that your facts are dead wrong - instead of saying hmmm yeah maybe I got it wrong you simply call me names.

I'm arrogant?

"You just can not stomache the fact that Israel is done wrong and being punished for it."

Punished for it? Who's punsishing them for it? What planet do you live on Larry? Do you see the burning and violence from 12 cartoons around the world? Those people hate Israel? Those people Larry - HATE YOU or do you think they'll ask you to dinner anytime soon?

And Larry just for your own edification - I'm a secular Jew. I don't believe in any God ... nor did my family. So there goes that argument of yours right out the window with all the other crap thats between your ears.

"Your "Darling israel" is in the wrong alot of times bhut yet You don't seem to grasep that fact it's always someone elses fault not Israel Well Buddy You can Kiss my ass GZLives."

Yeah and you can keep defending the cartoon crowd until they manage to shut down all the rights we have and you can keep yelling its the fault of ISrael and the Jews while the cut your head off because Larry - you clearly haven't a clue .
Look up the word "naive" and then look inthe mirror because YOU are the epitomy of it.

"
Reserve pilots in Israel balk at 'illegal' strikes
27 sign petition saying they will refuse missions to spare Palestinian civilians"

Well Jeff thanks for making a point for me - Israel pilots balk at what they consider illegal strikes ...

now lets imagine the same thing happening in those places YOU DEFEND ... your precious FASCIST states like Iran .. or Syria or Hmmmmm any single one of those repressive places.

THEY'D SHOOT/BEHEAD/STONE THE PILOTS TO DEATH AND YOU"D NEVER EVEN HEAR THE STORY

Three cheers for an open Democratic country in the middle of the most repressive places on EARTH

But I forgot - YOU WANT TO END ALL OF THAT and have your precious widdle Palestinians take over ... lolol

Hey Jeff tell me something. Since we all know how these Arab Muslims feel about homosexuals - they hunt them down and stone them to death or hang them as they have recently done in Iran - if your side wins how will you defend this? Will you just ignore it like you do the scum,bag Arafat ? How will you Lefties reconcile the Muslim proclivity of hunting down and killing gays ?
I've always been curious about that ... got any insight?

Spare me your ignorant sideway logic GZ.
I suppose Israel excepts homosexuallity open heartedly?
Non issue......

Ohh JEFF .. selective facts is called LYING so lets post the entire Vatican statement and let everyone see the context ok ? Then everyone can also see why you decided to leave out the context ...

"The Vatican has sharply criticised Israel for imposing "unjust conditions and humiliations" on the Palestinians. It also denounced acts of terrorism against the Jewish state. A strongly-worded Vatican statement called for a proportionate use of force for "legitimate acts of self-defence".

This statement was issued while around 120 Palestinian gunmen remained under siege in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. They took refuge in the church from Israeli soldiers, tanks and helicopter gunships.

Priests at the church were forced to admit the uniformed police officers and militiamen after they shot their way in following running battles with Israeli troops. It was reported earlier, however, that the senior Catholic Churchman in Jerusalem, Michel Sabbah, offered sanctuary to the Palestinians, saying they had disarmed.'


So we see this is after the precious victim Palestinians SHOT THEIR WAY into the Church where they were holding Catholic Priests hostages ...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Nice try JEFF ...

> Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The
> Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo
> agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to
> release so-called "political prisoners."
>
> However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their
> hands, The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his
> Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released.
>
>
> Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying
> an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was
> reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the
> terrorists were first identified.
> It was censored in the US from all later reports.

My computer was giving me problems, That's why I am just now getting back to you.
I didn't choose to leave anything out.
I posted the link so people could read the article.
Could you righties for once quit putting words in our mouths and diverting the intention of our posts with misdirected statements and half truths.
OK, what was the point of cutting and pasting that. Did the Vatican take back their original statement? No.
OK, about anti-gay law in Islam. I'm sure it is against their laws. I'm not defending Islamic Law.
I am simply stating that Israel has illegally taken Palestinian land from the very beginning. They have imposed one sided laws that are designed to take away their land with no due process or recourse of equity recovery. They have indiscriminately bombed Palestinians and killed lots of children and other civilians.
Yes, I know very well that Hamas has sent suicide bombers into Israel and also killed civilians. But Why? Why would they do that in the first place? They deeply believe that they have been unjustly dispossessed of their lands, livelihoods, and the lives of their loved ones.
I know you want to just label the Palestinians as fanatical, blood thirsty maniacs. But that is a one sided point of view that only a idiot or a racist could come up with. Human beings are not so different all over the world. we all have our basic needs and survival instincts.
BTW,
I have met some Zionists, and have had personal conversations with them. Their belief is that they are the chosen people and that if you are a gentile they are better than you and that they have the god given right to lord over you. They acted smug and condescending in our conversation. When people act with that frame of mind there is no room for reasonable debate, and in fact they are no better than the Muslim fundamentalists.
One more thing,
Please post a link about gay rights in Israel. I'm not questioning the truth of your statement, I would just like for you to back it up with a link.
If I am making a statement of fact, I always try and back it up with a link.
But when you make your statements, you almost never post a link and I get the general impression that you are just stating your opinion.

GZ,
Could you please explain this one to me?

The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9/11

Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming "middle-eastern" men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2)

"They were like happy, you know ... They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness. (3)

Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6)

On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attack would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good ... ... .Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)"

"On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attack would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good ... ... .Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)""

Yes but so incredibly OUT OF CONTEXT

What he meant was Americans would finally have to wake up to a real threat that Israelis have had to face for years ... and he was right wasn't he?

We have a serious threat from Fascism again ...Islamic fascism. Muslim Brotherhood ....

We have a serious threat from Fascism again ...Islamic fascism. Muslim Brotherhood ....

Yep. Serious threats are popping up all over. More coming.

Someone should do research on how the "cut and partial paste" completely out of context has been used so ubiquitously in the advancement of hate and dissemination of 1/2 truths and lies. This site has become a prime example of this, with GZLIVES and a few others having to constanstly bat back the stupid, hate-filled quotes with truth.

I wish I could understand what motivates some to be so hate-filled, wanting to blame minorities for their problems.

Oppression of minorities including women, homosexuals and any religions other than Islam is absurdly rampant in all Arab countries. That's what defines them.

GZ,
Do you not understand English, or do you intentionally try and put you own rightwing twist on things.
I will say it one more time.
I didn't leave anything out...
I posted the link so you could read it.
If I past the whole article then you lambaste me as the cut and paste king. If I don't past the article then you accuse me of purposefully editing the article.
That is so typical of rightwing debate. Your master has taught you well grasshopper.
Spin spin spin.
That's why most of the time I just post statements on here and don't waste my time trying to debate.
Actually it is a waste of time to debate.
You on the far right will never change your mind and us on the left ( actually I don't consider myself on the left. I would say I am left to center.) will not change our minds.
If the people on the right could actually come up with a good enough argument for the war in Iraq and US blind support of Israel I would change my mind.
But so far it hasn't happened.
When the USA when into Afghanistan I was 100% onboard, But as soon as it was obvious that Bush was using the war on terror to enforce his own commercial agenda I was abandoning ship.
A lot of you on the right are a lot more articulate and intelligent than I am. But I have had to survive in my life by depending on my intuitiveness and instinct of human nature, and I still trust that in me.
It surprises me that the right can be conned and mislead so easily.
It does however look like a lot of the right are starting to sober up and are distancing themselves from Bushco now. I will be interesting to see the future outcome.

JEFF,

Chill out man ... I'm so far from being on the right it would make your head swim ... believe it. I come from a family that is connected with one of the most famous events in US history .... left wing big time and I'll leave it at that. suffice to say that you know this event - everyone does. It was a historical event that was well known around the world. There's nothing you can possibly say that makes it different. I am from the left and I'll always be from the left no matter how far right the left moves and it has moved very far to be supporting fascists ... even fascists that wear turbans and pretend to be victims. I would never support anyone who would hunt down and kill gay people because they are gay. How can you possibly even live with yourself for doing this? How can you possibly call yourself a leftist when you can support this sort of thing? You would take the most progressive society possibly in the woirld and support replacing it with the most regressive fascist society? what sort of leftist is that ? Seriously Jeff ... what kind of leftist is that who would support a society that would relegate women to the veil and worse and kill gay people?

Between you and me ... anyone supporting this can not be from the left. If you say you're from the left and support this sort of thing then you're lying to yourself. You are a fascist pretending to be something else ... nevertheless think about it Jeff ... you are a fascist.

" If the people on the right could actually come up with a good enough argument for the war in Iraq and US blind support of Israel I would change my mind."

And yet you blindly support Islamists, and you blindly support everything you are told by fascist Muslims who hate you and would destroy everything you believe in. Don't buy it from me? Then go and read what the leader of Hamas just said in interviews this past week ... he said secular societies lead to homosexuality. You support this sort of thinking Jeff?
You support Jew hating Jeff?
You support women hating?

If you support these fascist Muslims you cannot claim you don't support these things. This is what those you DO support believe in. So what is it Jeff? Are you OK with supporting fascism or not.

I can't stand Bush so I haven't a clue what you're talking about. I voted for Kerry, for Gore and I worked and contributed to Clinton and met him a number of times. I have been working in Democratic politics for 25 years ... so chill out on the accusation that I'm from the right. Frankly you're way more rightwing then I'll ever be. I don't support those who would murder gays but you do. So I think that puts you way out on the right - far more right wing then me Jeff. Think about it.

You're an idiot.
Even though I know you understand my argument. You keep insisting on spinning it off in right field.
I support justice and fair play. No matter who the people are.
I'm thru wasting my time with you.

Fuck off Jeff, you start a international taunt of Muslims, and you have the nerve to blame anyone but yourselves. Are you on a campaign to deflect attention from this huge Muslim uproar of outrage?

"Fuck off Jeff, you start a international taunt of Muslims"
Yep. I did it! I confess! it was me!

God Damn freedom of the press!
I should have called them and insisted that they don't send that one to print!
I'm going to fire them all!

GZ,
I apoligize for calling you an idiot. I was tired when I posted that.
I understand that you are trying to be fair in your assesment of our debate.
We just have different opinions.

JEFF,

Much of this
"How tragic that in our own time the very state established by Jews in the aftermath of this evil has become a place where racialism, religious discrimination, militarism and injustice prevail; and that Israel itself has become a pariah state within the world community. Events taking place today are all too reminiscent of the pogroms from which our own forefathers fled two and three generations ago -- but this time those in authority are Jews and the victims are Moslems and Christian Palestinians."

I happen to agree with. It doesn't make me happy to see some of what goes on over there however I also recognize that unless they have some way of achieving security for themselves, which means someone on the other side must guarantee it - disarm violent fanatics for example. They are trapped and always in a position to guarantee their own safety since the fanatics are just a few yards away.

Another words, all it takes for the Palestinians to achieve what they say they want, is to disarm their fanatics, and yet they are unable to which should just prove the anarchy that exists within their society.
Also, to hear Hamas say they have no intention of honoring some of the peace Agreements that the PA previously signed on behalf of the Palestinian people with Israel...well then, what's the point? If everytime a Palestinian government changes they think they can simply throw away any and all progress thats been made, whats the point of even bothering.

This has also been Israel's problem for decades. So far what we've all seen in the recent years is no one can control the Palestinians street, and the Palestinians don't seem to be politically evolved enough to understand the importance of continuity. All Agreements must be honored, or no Agreement is worth the paper its printed on.

And by the way ... apology accepted.

GZ