This guy claims the entire Cartoon imbroglio was ginned up by Muslim fascists.

Those involved in taking a four-month-old incident in far-away Denmark and making it into a crisis roiling the streets of Beirut, Bangkok and Jakarta among other Muslim outposts, include Arab League Secretary Amr Moussa, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Mosque Sheikh Mohammad Sayyed Tantawi, and Sunni Islam's most influential scholar, Yusuf al Qaradawi, according to Lorenzo Vidino of the Counter Terrorism Blog.

These are very heavy hitters in the umma, the world community of Muslims.

Two questions raise themselves about this crisis manufactured by a who's who in the world of Islam: Why was a plan created and put into effect? And why now?

I had NO IDEA this cartoon was originally from four months ago.

That is INCREDIBLE.

Now guys -- do you STILL feel the same about this SPONTANEOUS Crisis?

H

Gin up, gin up, Where have I heard that term before?

Gin up, gin up, Where have I heard that term before?

The answer to the second question is likely found in the need to whip up Muslim unity in the face of several severe challenges on the world's political agenda. As Richard Baehr notes, the new Hamas government of the Palestinian territories needs to continue on life support via cash infusions from the European Union and other donor nations, including the United States. Fear and chastening have usually worked to unlock resources and sympathyin the past, so why not now?

Sorry for the double I was laughing my ass of over reading Horace's article using the term "Gin up". Next thing you'll hear is the West is going to invade Iran. Man these guys will stop at nothing to beat the people into a fire for war.

lmao Zap

OK, Zap -- let's just say that this whole "crisis" was contrived by some Mulah's for political expediency.

They wanted to show Muslim rage to back the West of from some of our expectations & demands.

I think it is a very scary notion & I would like to know -- if true -- what we in the West plan to do about it.

H

Thanks for including me in your "these people" although I am not trying to fire up any pro-war talk.

My question has to do with the fear of what will occur if the Muslim rabble are whipped into a fever frenzy.

What are our options?

H

I think it is a very scary notion & I would like to know -- if true -- what we in the West plan to do about it.


Well Fuck Horace obviously must up the ante!

Man these guys will stop at nothing to beat the people into a fire for war.

Damn Horace either my sarcasm is off or you're awful sensitive.

What are our options?

Prepare for economic and political hard times. Bush and the Muslims are preparing for war.

Zap, I am as serious as a bomb filled bus here.

If this is a FAKED crisis, as this auther states -- and I think the timeline supports -- I think that is VERY strange. It also shows to what an extent the hairtrigger exists in Islam.

Did you know that these people are not simply reacting on their own? They are in many places simply being told that blasphemy has occured.

Like with the Satanic Verse controversy, they are being led by the nose without seeing the evidence & it is suggested or demanded that they protest.

These riots are happening in places where there is no Western-styled freedom of speech or movement.

This means they have to have official sanction to happen in the first place!!

Perplexed -- H

Israel was the microcosm. Now were ready for the Main Event!

"My question has to do with the fear of what will occur if the Muslim rabble are whipped into a fever frenzy."

So what? Let 'em have their frenzy. Why do we need to respond to it all?

If this is a FAKED crisis


Horace you're killing me. Stop Please, faked crisis!

You are the MAN!

Zap, I am not trying to read anything into your statements. Nor am I irritated.

What are you getting at?

For me -- I really am perplexed as to what it all means or what they hope to accomplish.

What in the devil is going on here?

If this is a fake that means the world could go up in flames if the Mulah's felt it made sense -- at least where Muslims hold sway.

Wow...H

"Muslim immigrant and Dutch Member of Parliament Hirsi Ali (who now lives in hiding under death threats) makes the point convincingly:

"A free discussion of Islam remains rare and dangerous, certainly in the Islamic world, and even in our politically correct times in the West ... Apostasy is still punishable by long prison sentences and even death in many Islamic countries such as Pakistan and Iran ... "

"You cannot liberalize Islam without criticizing the Prophet and the Koran ... You cannot redecorate a house without entering inside."

Those who seek the same goal as the Islamofascists, the global reign of Islam as the unchallenged religion of humanity, understand Hirsi Ali's point very well. For them it is essential that ordinary members of the umma never see fundamental questions raised and never start raising them on their own. For once degrees of individual autonomy are granted on spiritual questions, and the right to question and make up one's own mind becomes established, the top-down pattern of divinely-sanctioned authority inherent in the ideal of a Global Caliphate collapses."

H

Horace

You know the answer. Its tough I know but NUKE the bastards!

lmao @ ZAP

Horace,

Nothing happens in a vacuum

"It is quite understandable that caring, sensitive Westerners seek to avoid offending the religious sensibilities of any serious believers, Muslims included. Such empathy is normally a highly commendable impulse.

But acceding to the demand that those most willing to use violence be allowed to control the discussion and stifle debate, among infidels and Muslims alike, is a betrayal of not only the moderate Muslims, but of all those who hope someday to live in peace with an Islam that grants legitimacy to religious dissent and to the claims of other faiths."

H

I am not naive enough to think of America as morally pure. Or the West for that matter.

But that deosn't mean I think we ought to sit around on our hands.

Frankly this event and what it portends in potential chaos is quite alarming.

H

Hooray. My 12:17 a.m. link worked for the first time. Check out this piece of so-called "art" by a Tunisian MUSLIM artist in my link above and see if you don't find it much worse than those stupid cartoons. I find it offensive but I'm not going to run around the streets screaming for blood. THE MUSLIMS ARE HYPOCRITES.

To bad muslims forget that as far as world religions are concerned, they are new kids on the block. If anyone gets to be irritated by anything, it should be the Jews or Hindus.
And I dont see many cartoons of Ghandi...

To bad muslims forget that as far as world religions are concerned, they are new kids on the block. If anyone gets to be irritated by anything, it should be the Jews or Hindus.
And I dont see many cartoons of Ganesha...

Obvious it was a professional propaganda action.
But - Cui bono?
The "crisis" helps to bring the European more in line with the US and it happened parallel to the NATO security conference.

It's basically just hardliners throwing out red meat for the other fanatics, and hoping to gain some new recruits. This kind of thing took much longer to plan, and was more difficult to execute before the net.

I told you guys these fanatical nutbags didn't represent the average muslim, but noooooo...I was being an "apologist" according to people like Sully.

Fascinating. So this means that there is this Islamofascist counterpart to Rove lurking somewhere in the ME.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Fascinating. So this means that there is this Islamofascist counterpart to Rove lurking somewhere in the ME.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Probably IS rove.

Seriously, what leads you to believe there needs to be a separate apparatus from the Bush administration?

They cooked up the "Pearl Harbor-type" event, they cooked up a bullshit WMD crisis, and now they are cooking up a bullshit nukular crisis in Iran.

It's so obvious, I don't understand why nobody understands this- This is ALL about getting the Saudis TOTAL control of OPEC. They used Saddam as a cat's paw to get rid of Kuwait, then they told GWB to get rid of Iraq. GWB tried to get rid of Chavez, and now he is trying to get rid of Iran.

The Saudis and their paid stooges the Bush Crime Family are all working together to take control of OPEC, because Arabia is almost out of oil. So the less there is, the more they can charge. And guess who is going to have all of the oil as the price keeps going up? The Saudis, Bin Ladens, and the Bush Crime Family.

"Frankly this event and what it portends in potential chaos is quite alarming."-Horace

Too bad you didn't think about this sooner, like around the time we decided to quit avenging 9-11 at Tora Bora and began the Iraq adventure.

Too bad you didn't think about this sooner, like around the time we decided to quit avenging 9-11 at Tora Bora and began the Iraq adventure.

=========

a war against terrorism does not end at OBL...obviously the large part of the ME is a terrorist breeding ground. but maybe we should look the other way and pretend its not there....

"a war against terrorism does not end at OBL..."

It doesn't seem to begin there either.

"...obviously the large part of the ME is a terrorist breeding ground. but maybe we should look the other way and pretend its not there...."

Are you freakin' serious? Maybe we should invade another damned country to tone those fuckers down a bit? Are you mad, or just oblivious?

Are you freakin' serious? Maybe we should invade another damned country to tone those fuckers down a bit? Are you mad, or just oblivious?

======

i'm not either. but thats how the trendy tree huggers of this country act. lets pretend that all this terrorist crap is made up and look the other way. if we do, it'll go away by itself. or maybe if we go over there, sit them aside and have a little pow wow with them, they'll change their views.

What we'll do is invade Iran, that'll work. It will give them democracy and calm them down. They'll love us and want to be our friend.

"i'm not either. but thats how the trendy tree huggers of this country act. lets pretend that all this terrorist crap is made up and look the other way. if we do, it'll go away by itself. or maybe if we go over there, sit them aside and have a little pow wow with them, they'll change their views."

Are you daft? Who are you talking to? You certainly aren't speaking to me.

TED-
We might have some options if Bushco (tm) hadn't jumped the shark.

Seriously, what leads you to believe there needs to be a separate apparatus from the Bush administration?

They cooked up the "Pearl Harbor-type" event, they cooked up a bullshit WMD crisis, and now they are cooking up a bullshit nukular crisis in Iran.

It's so obvious, I don't understand why nobody understands this- This is ALL about getting the Saudis TOTAL control of OPEC. They used Saddam as a cat's paw to get rid of Kuwait, then they told GWB to get rid of Iraq. GWB tried to get rid of Chavez, and now he is trying to get rid of Iran.

The Saudis and their paid stooges the Bush Crime Family are all working together to take control of OPEC, because Arabia is almost out of oil. So the less there is, the more they can charge. And guess who is going to have all of the oil as the price keeps going up? The Saudis, Bin Ladens, and the Bush Crime Family.

Posted by justsomeguy at 2006-02-08 04:47 AM | Reply

"They cooked up the "Pearl Harbor-type" event, they cooked up a bullshit WMD crisis, and now they are cooking up a bullshit nukular crisis in Iran."

You need to take a break from watching continuous auto runs of seasons 1 - 4 of "24" and get some fresh air and sunlight. It's a great show; but, it's warping your grasp of reality.

Mac-
"justsomeguy" posted that two hours ago, and he's no longer here to defend himself.

"i'm not either. but thats how the trendy tree huggers of this country act. lets pretend that all this terrorist crap is made up and look the other way. if we do, it'll go away by itself. or maybe if we go over there, sit them aside and have a little pow wow with them, they'll change their views."

Is that the only way you can understand your opposition, through caricature? Is your world so tidy and stupid?

ED-
We might have some options if Bushco (tm) hadn't jumped the shark.

Posted by Boyd at 2006-02-08 06:38 AM | Reply


=====

the dems backed bush when jumping the shark. and what other options do you assume we'd have against people willing to strap bombs to themselves and fly passenger planes into the twin towers?

Is that the only way you can understand your opposition, through caricature? Is your world so tidy and stupid?

=====

actually, i dont understand the opposition. they jump from one opinion ot the opposite extreme depending on which will save their face or make the president look stupid.

And lets speak of hypocrisy. How is Bush defined here on EVERY SINGLE post (minus the ones that the dems wont comment on because they show how dumb the libs are)?

and yes, thanks to the chaos that the libs are making of the world in the name of putting one of their own mindless leaders in the seat for 2008, the world is looking pretty stupid. THANKS!!!

"the dems backed bush when jumping the shark. and what other options do you assume we'd have against people willing to strap bombs to themselves and fly passenger planes into the twin towers?"

Posted by richarcm at 2006-02-08 06:47 AM | Reply

The Democrats backed the commander in chief after an attack on our land. The rest was sorta up to him, and he betrayed us.

"actually, i dont understand the opposition."

I don't find that too surprising. Where do you get your information?

Later.

The Democrats backed the commander in chief after an attack on our land. The rest was sorta up to him, and he betrayed us.

Posted by Boyd at 2006-02-08 06:53 AM | Reply

how did he betray you? by capturing some of the most dangerous terrorists (including sadaam) known to the planet earth? or was it by preventing an attack on "our land" for the past FIVE years?

I don't find that too surprising. Where do you get your information?

=========

how could you? most of the country doesnt.

what information are you inquiring about sir?

how did he betray you? by capturing some of the most dangerous terrorists (including sadaam) known to the planet earth? or was it by preventing an attack on "our land" for the past FIVE years?


Posted by richarcm at 2006-02-08 07:04 AM | Reply



That is soo hilarious Saddam was NO threat to the United States Unless of course You think being the one who controled the second Largest known Oil reserves on the Planet makes You a threat. Oh and Dubya lost all My respect when He invaded Iraq ILLEGALY how hard is that to grasp Richarcm Hmmmmmm. Oh and lets not forget His lackluster performance with the Hurricane Katrina Disaster. I could go on but the list is long and tedious.

Larry

That is soo hilarious Saddam was NO threat to the United States Unless of course You think being the one who controled the second Largest known Oil reserves on the Planet makes You a threat. Oh and Dubya lost all My respect when He invaded Iraq ILLEGALY how hard is that to grasp Richarcm Hmmmmmm. Oh and lets not forget His lackluster performance with the Hurricane Katrina Disaster. I could go on but the list is long and tedious.

Larry

=========

there you go looking the other way again. sadaam was a threat to anyone who didnt follow him. read up!

there you go looking the other way again. sadaam was a threat to anyone who didnt follow him. read up!

Posted by richarcm at 2006-02-08 07:11 AM | Reply


Apparently His Neighbors disagree with that LMAO Too fucking funny Dude LMAO

Larry

"or was it by preventing an attack on "our land" for the past FIVE years?"

You have no idea if Bush has "prevented" an attack on our land.

It takes YEARS of planning to even attempt an attack as large as the one we had on 911.

This is what you get when you rile up reactionary Fundamentalists over some out-of-proportion nonsense.

Surely we grasp that this fanaticism exposes more of a threat than the burning of flags and Embassies?

We have Fundamentalists in high places with their itchy fingers on "the button," who think they would be doing God's work by bringing to pass Armageddon. It only takes a simple command to start an unstoppable chain of events with the push of a button or a nod of the head.

I thought everyone knew these cartoons had been published four months ago? Why wasn't the reaction immediate, if it hasn't been provoked by extremist Islamists?

The American Family Association, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson--we could go on and on--all warn, like Ronald Reagan "prophesied," that we could see Armageddon in our lifetime. That's how loony--and ultimately dangerous--we have allowed our government to become. A few fanatics will blow the rest of us into oblivion and think they are fulfilling God's plan.

What is it going to take to return common sense and logic to management?

We are living in a Kafka-esque world of absurdities. If Christianity and other major religions were actually working, then "the faithful" should be a lot more knowledgeable, more educated, more reasonable than were their "pagan" ancestors. Yet we find this is not the case. Instead, if Jesus were suddenly to appear on the streets of Peoria, he would be arrested for speaking out against the silly practices of the Fundamentalist churches who think they're operating under his wishes.

Imagine the overreaction of the fundies when Ron Howard's film "The Da Vinci Code" is released.

Shut up, Peanut. You have no moral or intellectual standing to preach to me or any other Christian. You are another leftist lemming spewing talking points out his ass. What you know about logic and posses in common sense could fit in the proverbial thimble.

Go pray with your fellow losers to your religion of atheism. Unfounded arrogance driven by a false and laughable sense of superiority.

The instantaneous availability of Danish flags for burning in obscure outposts of the Muslim world suggests a great deal of advance planning.

I would have pegged this whole story as a trite conspiracy theory but I have to admit that's very freaking suspect.

Shut up, Peanut.--Itchy

Glad to see I struck a nerve. Perhaps burning a flag would release some of your fundie hostility?

Peanut,

Never burned a flag. Never will. I would bet anything you have.

You are incapable of striking anything with me.

No hostility for you, just pity. Uncaring, unfaltering sympathy for a sorry loser who is wasting a precious gift, life, on left wing crapola and ignorance.

It's your liberty. Too bad you are not free thinking and intelligent enough to do something constructive with it.

The Danish editor who printed the cartoons was on CNN this morning. He tried to show examples of cartoons which his paper had printed in the past that made fun of Jews and Christians. They briefly showed a cartoon of a bomb with the Star of David painted it on, but quickly cut away from the cartoon which looked like it depicted Jesus. I am so annoyed at CNN that I think I will write them a letter. The female anchor was asking the editor questions about free speech and claims that the paper was insensitive to Muslims, but when he tried to make his case, they refused to show his examples. This Sunday the Danish paper plans to run a series of cartoons, which they ran in the past, about Christianity and Judaism. Let's see how much coverage those photos get in the West and in the Muslim world.

I can understand Muslims being upset about the fake cartoons they were shown: Mohammed having sex with an animial; Mohammed portrayed as a pedophile and the Prophet depicted as a pig. I don't believe most Muslims are violent or that Islam is an inherently violent religion. However, moderate Muslims, the silent majority of them, should realize that that is the face of Islam in much of the modern world. If they want to change that misconception, they need to speak up against the violent protests.

If you cannot handle issues stemming from the free world, you shouldn't leave your totalerian country and should return back to the middle east in a controled setting they yearn for.

When in Rome, do as the Roman's do. If you would like to lie and cheat and decieve and do it in the name of religion, expect repurcussion against you and your religion you value so much

Cali, where in the WORLD did you find that link?

You must be surfin in the Ethosphere...

Nice one!

H

It takes YEARS of planning to even attempt an attack as large as the one we had on 911.


Posted by InWI at 2006-02-08 08:11 AM | Reply

You're joking right?

If you were the US President and your advisors are telling you another country threatens the National Security of the US, presents the facts as they show it, what do you do?

You are not a part of the intelligence community. You are a politician who has just been handed information that's a threat. What do you do?

The people in the business of intelligence have been doing it for years and years. It's their profession. You're a politician who has no idea where these countries are on the planet. You rely on the experts' advice and try to the best thing based on the advice.

Anyone who isn't the President can't make that call. The President receives information no one else is going to see, except Congress and even then the doors could be closed to the public.

If Iran is a threat to the National Security of the US, we act. As before, the UN has a chance to engage in this. Bush went to the UN over Iraq. Iraq was a UN issue for many many years. How many threats did they make to Iraq to comply? What was the threat for failure to comply? The UN sat on their hands. If you're the President, do you sit on your hands, too?

Don't give me crap - tell me what YOU would do. If you don't have a plan, then all you do is complain. Any toddler can do that.

Incubus, that is a HELLUVA Name!

I salute thee!

H

"You're joking right?"

Not at all.

"You rely on the experts' advice and try to the best thing based on the advice."

It's too bad Bush didn't listen to the "experts" when they told him how many troops to put into Iraq to get the job done right.

Wonder why??

When was the last time you sat in with the President to receive his advice?

Which experts are you referring to? The ones on the network channels? What did the experts say directly to the President - where's the script?

Bottom line is these people are choosing to be offended. The cartoons were none of their business until they chose otherwise.

Much of what goes on in their home countries would offend me, if chose to make it my business.

Fascist Muslims need to mind their own business. And if they can't, they should be incented to do so in their own language: violence.

you know I was wondering why..if this was so insulting to muslums, why did they wait until now to do this?
and thats the first time I have read anything about the flags...it does make sense though....its not like you can get a bunch of those down at the casba.


and why havent these been printed over here? I guess if you were to substitute jesus for allah, then it would be okay and noone would worry about it....since christian bashing is okay but heaven help the world if we make fun of a RAGHEAD....

(* and yes I used that term to get a statement out of one of our caring and concerned libs here)

You have offended us by pertraying our religion and our prophet mohammed as a bunch of violent camel fuckers that are fucked in the head.
To prove you wrong we are going to break windows, burn embassies, invoke 911 (the sign read "Europe, didn't you learn anything from 911?"), storm embassies, take western hostages, and burn and stomp provided flags whilst in a mob setting.

And of course some bed wetting libs on this site want to blame anyone except the mongrel muslims.
Hint retards...Catholics/christians didn't storm embassies, take hostages, etc when "piss christ" and numerous other anti-christian things were made in the name of "art" or "free speech".

New Rule: If you gather on the Arab street while yelling "death to "insert country here"" you should become a fair target. Fly a drone over the gathering and use napalm, willy pete, or 10 pallets of razor blades to destroy every dumb mother fucker there. They aren't inncocent protesters anymore.

The only people dumber than these 3rd world mutts are the apologists.

"If you gather on the Arab street while yelling "death to "insert country here"" you should become a fair target."

What if you do it in your mosque every day while a relgious figure leads the chant? In much of the Middle East, they chant "Death to America" every day, multiple times per day. Even that moron Sean Penn had to report it when he went to Iran to cover their election - of course he made some lame excuse how they were not being literal and Americans just don't get that.

Yes, you are right, the apologists are more stupid than the babbling, chanting followers of the Religion of Peace.

"By seeking to establish a global norm a custom enforced by social sanction, not law that Sharia restrictions shall apply even in non-Muslim lands, the Islamofascists are engaging in prophylaxis: preventing the "disease" of free discussion and debate over topics they wish to control exclusively from ever gaining traction and possibly spreading to their own constituency."


We gain nothing by prostrating ourselves in front of their idols.

H

Too bad you are not free thinking

Itchy, surely you jest?

Reality check. Earth to Itchy.

Fundies are the ones who unfortunately can't think for themselves.

damn....I was all set to post the post of the day but I have to retire to the tv since I cant possibly compete with the two posts above. sully and 101st....after those, this thread should just close....not much else to be said.....


oh wait....I think larry or perfect will try though......hee hee....
inwis...help them out....will you>

What if you do it in your mosque every day while a relgious figure leads the chant? In much of the Middle East, they chant "Death to America" every day, multiple times per day.


Posted by sully at 2006-02-08 10:55 AM | Reply

Well most people would say "Hmmm, those animals can't be dealt with diplomatically. Why do people keep saying it is only "small bastardised" offshoot that is so violent when I can clearly see that it is being organized by the state?"
The ME as a whole is a powderkeg. If you ignore them the problems fester and grow, if you address them the problems fester and grow.
There aren't any moderate muslims with any control what so ever. Some cleric nobody ever heard of condems the violence...Color me unimpressed.

Sully,
I just don't understand how anyone (including the crazy asses liberals here) can ignore the fact that Islamic mutts see everyone not sucking mohhameds dick as the enemy. Christians are backwards in many views, but Islam/Muslims are backwards and violent in almost every instance.

I just wish ONCE, just ONCE, that Israel or the USA would drop cluster bombs on one of those death to israel/death to the usa rallies. Once they show their violent tendencies they should be erased.

101 - I would be perfectly happy leaving them to their own devices and having minimal contact with them. Let them chant all they want if it makes them happy. And yes, we need to purchase oil from them but they're always willing to sell regardless of what else is going on.

The problem is that they increasingly seem to feel it is their duty to monitor our behavior and to make sure we're following Sharia. And in Western countries, the local Muslims now seem to expect us to bend their beliefs. That is when you have to reply to their threats and acts of violence with violence. The more leash they're given, the more bold they become. Violence is the only thing that will trump their religious beliefs. They scream jihad-jihad and that they're willing to die for Islam but they were still smarter than to fuck with a guy like Saddam. They respected him more than their religion. Iraqis were willing to quietly practice their religion before we toppled Saddam.

So I think more effective than randomly killing the chanters would be to take the ringleaders of facist Islam living in the West to a remote location and beat them to within an inch of their lives every day for a month. Then let them go. Then they would respect the local laws and customs of the country they chose as their new homes or they'll go home. What they would stop doing is starting trouble in our streets. I could really care less if they want to behave like animals in their own countries.

Sorry I missed the beginning of this thread and thank you HORACE for posting this and RCADE for putting it up on the front page.

I'd listened to the Danish editor of the newspaper that published the cartoons yesterday on CSPAN and he had explained this- later on I heard it somewhat described on Keith Oberman MSNBC show. Of course Fox also had some info on it including how one of the 3 faked cartoons that was used to show those in the Middle East how offensive all of these were was actually a French picture of a man with a pig nose on having nothing to do with any of it. Another words these guys were just looking for anything to make an issue out of. Why?

Maybe because it will be Denmark who takes charge of the UN Security Council during its debate on Iran ?

Remember the recent trip to Damascus by the Iranian President? Perhaps 3 or 4 weeks ago. Now think back at where the first demonstrations began in the middle east. Damascus, Beirut (almost controlled by Syria) Palestinian Jerusalem and Tehren ... followed by some others but one would have to conclude that Iran and Iranian money was behind all of it.

My own opinion is newspapers around the world should publish all 12 cartoons along with additional cartoons lampooning all the world's religion and then religion in general.

Fascists of any sort - and make no mistake about it these are Muslim Brownshirts, will stop at nothing to achieve their ends. This has NOTHING to do with Muslims but they would want you to believe that and react so they can then be "outraged" which is all they are trying to do here. Have you ever seen people so anxious to be "outraged"

People should call this for what it is - a bunch of crap and all of it should be pushed right back at them and any fascist who woulod attempt this. Lets lampoon all religion - everyone and then see what they say?

"I just wish ONCE, just ONCE, that Israel or the USA would drop cluster bombs on one of those death to israel/death to the usa rallies. Once they show their violent tendencies they should be erased."

Yes I know exactly what you mean but I'm sure you realize is exactly what they want hoping to ignite a real war that sucks in ALL MODERATES on both sides.

I like the cluster bomb idea, the headline;

US planes drop inhumane cluster bombs on flag burning representitives of the religion of peace, interupting a female circumcision that was taking place nearby. At wedding party.

I'm seeing a lot of "I would be perfectly happy to leave them alone" business here. Keep in mind that this automatically means the end of Israel, probably in some sort of nuclear war. Don't worry... the fallout will probably be pretty well disapated by the time it gets here.

Also keep in mind that the US and Britain bent over backwards to leave Hitler alone in WW2. He basically had to start bombing London to get the average politico there to come off the whole pacifist thing. Also, had Japan left us alone, and had Hilter been able to remain in power for say... 4-5 years longer, he almost certainly would have developed a nuclear arsenal in our hemisphere.

Sure, I'd love to leave them to their own devices, but aren't we "giving away our precious, time honored liberties!" just to keep them from bombing us here right now? With mere airplanes and C4 (and that unstable crap they used on the London subway)?

And Ray, I don't know what your 7:56 post from last night is supposed to mean, but it looks like crap. Justification, I take it, for violence. But you would never justify it in yourself...

Great Post, GZ.

Doesn't the Mass Media have ANY duty for Due Dilligence?

H

Ayn, why is it that many Liberals only take issue with Israel in the entire Middle East?

What have they done wrong?

Their "crimes": Instituting the only original Democracy in the ME, having the only Human Rights based law, Having the only self-sustained economy, Being the US's only genuine longstanding friend, etc

Well, gee -- I guess they do need to either die or go back to Europe!

H

It's not that Israel is an American Ally Horace, it's that our President supports their right to exist free from the threat of genocidal extermination... That's why the far left despises Israel.

I suspect that if GWB would declare, on public television that he supports "breathing", I suspect that about 1/3 of the population of this country, and the majority of the posters on Drudge.com would be found dead in the morning with faces bluer than Massachusets.

Rock -- I would like to ask these ant-Israeli/Pro 'Palestinians" (a euphemism if ever there were one) Would you really spend Billion$ erecting a fence if it was your desire to exterminate all of the people immediately outside it & had the firepower to do so?

The question answers itself.

H

"Keep in mind that this automatically means the end of Israel, probably in some sort of nuclear war."

First of all, we gain nothing out of our unconditional support of Israel. We're fighting two wars in the region with zero Israeli troops helping. I know, I know, we "can't" use them. But makes you wonder what we'll ever get from the deal. We helped them get on their feet, now they have to stand on their own like everyone else. It is not the job of the US government to worry about Israel. If we're going to give billions in way in welfare every year, give it to Americans. And plus, without our unwavering support of one side, maybe a compromise would come about easier. Certainly doesn't make sense for us to pay for the construction of settlements that prolong the conflict.

Secondly, you couldn't be more wrong anyway. The Arab states suck militarily. Individuals may be great at beating women or blowing up schoolbuses. But they show little desire or skill to take on a real army. Israel's history is full of victories against what should have been "superior" Arab forces.

"First of all, we gain nothing out of our unconditional support of Israel."

"But makes you wonder what we'll ever get from the deal."

"It is not the job of the US government to worry about Israel."

I'm not sure if you "get" what the United States "does." We police the world not for economic gain, but to keep peace and prevent war, and human rights tragedies like the kind Iran, Iraq (to mention a few countries) actively seek/sought to bestow upon the Jewish/Kurdish/Sunni/Shiite/
what have you populations of their respective countries and neighbors.

Remember that whole WWII thing??? We don't want another one. Especially when you throw manical dictators with nuclear weapons into the equation... Think the Third Reich with nuclear capacity... I'll help you, it's a bad thing. That's why we support Israel and it's peoples right to life and protect them from countries with genocidal aspirations...

Does this really need to be defended??? What in the hell is this country coming to?

Isn't it funny that Boxcrotch call everyone else lemmings?
Whatta tool.....

Israel is like the war in Iraq.
It is a situation created out of political manipulation, and deception. But it is there now and there is no turning back the clock. So we just have to make the best of it.

Jeff in Denmark


Jeff, are you in fact IN DENMARK?

If so -- what's the reaction there?

H

"It is not the job of the US government to worry about Israel."

It is our job to worry about an ally. England is an Ally. Germany and Japan are Allies.

That's what allies do. It's just that Israel has been fighting to survive for so long that we have had to be there for a very long ride. I have noticed that despite being Israel's ally, we haven't landed troops there to defend it. Much like England before WWII totally broke out. We traded with England war supplies before getting involved. Same here with Israel.
.

Jeffy,

95% of the leftists on this site are lemmings. Lemmings come in all shapes, sizes and political persuasions. Given that this is a fringe left political blog, it should not surprise you that a gaggle of left wing lemmings troll here. Hell, you are clearly one of them. You have nothing more to offer than rehashed left wing talking points. One many days, I am the only one who tells the lemmings that they are full of crap, as usual.

If I were a right wing lemming, I would blog on Michellemalkin.com.

BTW ... Are you pissing in your "I Hate Bush" panties waiting for some Allah Ackbar screaming freak to come and saw your head off? You rascally Danes really pissed them off this time!

Hey Jeffy Allaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!! Booooooo!!! When they come for you, quickly expose some of your political views for them. They will feel such pity for you and your idiocy, they will leave you alone. Well, at least give it a try. It's worth the chance.

Or you could espouse them ...

Rockum/Boxie - We entered WWII because we were attacked by Japan. Germany was an ally of Japan who was already targetting our shipping so we also declared war on them.

Secondly, being an ally of a country has never, ever meant donating billions of dollars to it every year. Nor has it meant unconditional support at the expense of our own interests. We can be allies with Israel without taxing our citizens and giving their money to Israelis and without pretending that everything that goes on in the Middle East is our business.

You tell me where Israel is mentioned in the US Constitution, and you have a case for our government being responsible for Israel. Otherwise, save the mealy-mouthed world police propoganda for someone willing to swallow it because it doesn't pertain to the point I was making in the least.

"We're fighting two wars in the region with zero Israeli troops helping. I know, I know, we "can't" use them."

Of course this is only partly true. Israelis have been very much involved albeit with a very low profile for very obvious reasons.

"But it makes you wonder what we'll ever get from the deal."

All sorts of high tech weaponry not to mention decades of experience fighting the same enemy we're now fighting along with the rest of the newly enlightened world - Muslim brownshirts using organized terror.

"It is not the job of the US government to worry about Israel. "

Nor does Israel want the US to worry about them - if you read their press, what you'd find is many Israelis would prefer the US stay out of it. Perhaps you have forgotten that Israel wanted to make Arafat disappear two decades ago but it was US pressure that "persuaded" them otherwise. As we now know from discovering how much thievery has gone on which all came crashing down by Fatah's collapse to Hamas in the recent election. Had Arafat been taken care of, perhaps things would be very different today.

"If we're going to give billions in way in welfare every year, give it to Americans."

Perhaps you aren't aware of how it works. Much of the money Israel gets MUST be spent in America and so Americans actually do get the much of the money in the way of jobs.

"And plus, without our unwavering support of one side, maybe a compromise would come about easier."

Do you really believe this - as we watch Islamist fascists organize mass demonstrations of repressed Muslims just looking to be outraged at virtually anything? This sentiment is exactly what the Palestinians have been spending millions in Public Relations to get you to believe. I submit the Arafat argument once again. Once you accept just how bad a crook he was, it becomes obvious that he never wanted to settle anything with anyone ... some say its because he never stopped wanting to destroy all of Israel while some say he never wanted to stop the cash coming into his Swiss bank accounts. Either way, there simply was never going to be anything settled and not because Israel wouldn't compromise. They tried and tried and tried ....

"Does this really need to be defended??? What in the hell is this country coming to?"

It seems to always need to be defended as soon as the fascists and anti semites like the Iranian President appear. "We need oil not Jews" is my favorite bumper sticker I spotted during the last gas crisis. Sadly, its just the way it is.

"It is a situation created out of political manipulation, and deception. But it is there now and there is no turning back the clock. So we just have to make the best of it."

Well there ya go .. perfect example of the new left wing sentiment and hundreds of millions spent on public relations. The fact that Britain made it very clear in the 1920's what their intention was in Palestine doesn't even matter to some who will use buzz words like "deception" which fit so perfectly into the anti semite lexicon. The deceptive Jew ... manipulating events. See Jeff ... you too can fall victim to old classic tactics.

It was NOT a situation created from ANY DECEPTION. Jews lived in that area - in that specific area BEFORE MUSLIMS EVER EXISTED ....
the deception is how fascist Muslims ever got you to believe otherwise ...

Do any of these idiot cartoon protesters have jobs? Probably not, when you have the IQ of Paris Hilton its hard to find decent employment.

This whole fiasco should cement for the world the fact that Islam is NOT in the business of dealing with situations in a rational manner. If they would stop acting like screaming infants at 3am, they might gin up some sympathy for their so-called plight.

Lack of education=democrat=poverty=ter
rorism=death.

BTW - There are ONLY 72 virgins in heaven! That's it, 72. I guess they'll have to share.

The MUHAMMED MOCKUMENTARY is going to ROCK!!
Let me know the parts you all would like to play...

H

FYI...Alexia & TheImperfectSquall have already laid claim to being Heavenly Virgins...

H

Anyone know 800 Jews that wouldn't mind pretending to get their heads lopped off for the Trenches scene?

H

GZ - You made some decent points about the sharing of intelligence, tactics and technology between us and Israel. But that can be done on an equal footing instead of us having to donate billions every year on top of the sharing that goes on.

As for you assertion that we profit in some way by giving away billions to Israel every year - that's crap. Not nearly as much as you hinted is spent on American products. And even if all of it were used that way, it still is not efficient to tax Americans, give the money to foreigners, and then have them by goods off us. Its a waste of our money for a purpose that our government was never intended to fulfill. I'm against taxing Americans and giving our money away to foreigners in general. It NEVER buys us the good will that its proponents claim it does.

And the points you made about Israelis not wanting us dictating their business are valid. If they stop taking our money, then we'd have no reason to expect to have any input. So maybe the Israelis and I want the same thing: for our government to mind its own business and to do its job as outlined by the Consitution.

I didn't go into this topic because I was saying that I want to abandon Israel in order to appease Arabs, BTW. I got into thist topic because someone said if we stopped intervening in the Middle East all the time, then there would be no Israel. And that's when I said Israel does not need us and its not our job to worry about them anyway.

If that makes me fit your definition of anti-semite, then so be it. But then you fit my definition of coward because calling me an anti-semite is just a way of copping out instead of addressing what I've actually said. There is nothing anti-semetic about saying that my government has no business taking my money and giving it away to foreigners or that Israel can handle its own business.

The message is clear, though... it pays not to be the type of country/people/jackass that cuts people's heads off on film, takes hostages and bothers people about it, and goes nuts about some friggin' cartoon. And no, if I was them I most certainly would not do those things... sorry. Furthermore, I refuse to attempt to rationalize that kind of behavior.

fellows i said this several days ago check
it out
jasman

"If that makes me fit your definition of anti-semite, then so be it. But then you fit my definition of coward because calling me an anti-semite is just a way of copping out instead of addressing what I've actually said. "


Wow SULLY .. can you kindly show me where I ever said this ???

I never did and I really find it fascinating that so many imagine me accusing them when I don't.
You know when the shoe fits so to speak and not unless ... some are and some aren't. Criticizing Israel is not anti semitic. Using classic anti semitic buzz words may mean the user is or perhaps the user doesn't realize what the words mean.

I think if you look back at my post - you'd realize I was directing some at Jeff in Denmark who had posted that 'Israel is a result of deception and manipulation', adverbs which are clearly from the classic anti semitic lexicon. That's not my opinion, its fact and can be substaniated by reading some of Nazi Germany's favorite newspaper Der Stuermer.

But I included Jeff's post with my response so it would be clear that I wasn't directing anything of the sort toward you.

By the way, that's not to say Jeff is an anti semite either, but only to say he's used the language and to make him aware of it. Now he can do with that information whatever he wants.

Look back and see if I'm not mistaken SULLY.

GZ - You were addressing stuff that I said and at the end switched to others. I could see that the quotes you specifically called anti-Semetic were not mine, but I wasn't sure if I was being lumped in. I didn't say you definitely called me an anti-Semite either, I was trying to say "if that's what you were getting at.." Anyway, I now realize there was no reason for me to bring that up.

I personally don't care who was there first. The current reality is that Israel exists and is not going anywhere. I am mildly amused that the European countries who chased all their jews out under the threat of death are now Israel's biggest critics. Really, I think I was criticizing our government's practice of taxing us and giving our money away overseas more than I was Israel anyway.

I agree with much of what you say SULLY and where I disagree I do see your point.

I may disagree with you or see things slightly differently but on the whole, we basically agree on more then we don't.

GZ,
I guess you're Jewish?
So if you are you have a personal interest in Israel.
I am not Jewish. So I consider myself on the outside looking in. Giving me a different perspective.
I think that Israel is a country that is an installed and supported country.
Am I wrong?
That being said. I have no problem with that. The Jews needed a homeland, and now they have one. But since they are an independent country. They need to stand independently.
Also I am 100% against their treatment of their neighbors. The Palestinians.
They have gained the sympathy of the whole world thru the holocaust, and the way they were treated by the Nazis.
and now they are dispossessing the Palestinians of their rightful land, livelihoods, and even their lives the same way.
With the support of the US and Britton.
If my opinion is wrong. Please tell me why it is wrong.
And I already know one thing you will say, "6 million dead". Maybe that number is accurate, I don't know.
But it is no excuse for their treatment of the Palestinians.
And then the west wonders why the muslims in the middle east are so pissed off.....

Jeff in Denmark


Jeff, are you in fact IN DENMARK?

If so -- what's the reaction there?

H


Posted by horace at 2006-02-08 02:09 PM | Reply

I am going to bed now. I will read your reply in the morning.
Good night.
Oh and someone asked about the Danes response to the riots over the cartoons.
The businesses aren't happy. They are losing lots of money. The Government Is trying to find wiggle room without apoligizing for the news paper. And the Danish people are just going about their daily lives without any noticable outrage.
They did a pole today on the local news, asking if the government should apoligize for the news paper and it was about 50/50.
danes are cool, they don't get all worked up to easy.

Hey JeffnDenmark,

Do the Danish women still love brown haired, brown-eyed Americans? When my comrades and I were in Copenhagen in 1985, we had a GREAT time if you know what I mean.

BTW - Still can't get enough Elephant Beer!!!

JeffnD -- PLEASE give us some Denmark insights whenever you feel like it.

I'd enjoy hearing more.

xo H

I wondered about the availability of Danish flags in Muslim Countries as well.
That was actually my first thought" Where did they get all these Danish flags"?

Second was: "This happened in September and they're just now getting worked up about it"?

how did he betray you? by capturing some of the most dangerous terrorists (including sadaam)

I CALL BULLSHIT!! Sadaam had nothing to do with 9/11 or the USS Cole of the Embassies.
The only time he employed terror was when we armed and created him because we needed him to beat Iran. We gave him the weapons he used.

My own opinion is newspapers around the world should publish all 12 cartoons along with additional cartoons lampooning all the world's religion and then religion in general.

Great idea. And let's include the Holocaust too.

Jeffy,

95% of the leftists on this site are lemmings. Lemmings come in all shapes, sizes and political persuasions. Given that this is a fringe left political blog, it should not surprise you that a gaggle of left wing lemmings troll here. Hell, you are clearly one of them. You have nothing more to offer than rehashed left wing talking points. One many days, I am the only one who tells the lemmings that they are full of crap, as usual.
posted by stoptheboxitch


hahahahahahaha!! good one B-itch!! Since you are nothing but a punching bag on every thread this is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

"ditto"

Regards,
etc.

Maybe as a joke the Danes should go & burn down the Syrian embassy?

Film it with a continuous laughtrack in the background.

H

The Danes should publish a continous cartoon called "Muslim Circus." Each day would contain a funny snipet about the muslim world through the eyes of children.

BTW - where are the islamic kids when their parents are violently protesting cartoons? Day care? School? Akmudds Truck Driving School? Blaams Suicide Bomb Technical Institute? IED's Online?

JEFF

Different perspectives don't necessarily mean correct perspectives it merely means a different perspective. 25% of Israelis ARE NOT Jews. 18% are Arabs. They serve in the Israeli military, in Israeli Police departments and in Israeli government. Do you think they see things differently than I do because I'm Jewish and they're not?

Fooled you on that one right ?

The country was installed and supported?
Installed? what does that mean? The Jews prevailed upon the Brit landlord to give them their land back. The Brits said OK but only a third, and the other third will be international where we'll have Jerusalem and the last third will be for the Arabs who were living here with the Jews. Jews said yes, Arabs said no ... and so? You know the rest. Is that installed?

Now you're going to tell me how the Jews stole the Palestinian land and I'm going to ask you if you know how much land the Jews bought from the Arabs living there? Do you? All I know is it was enough to cause riots by other Arabs who resented those Arabs who were selling land to Jews. It kind of makes you think maybe not ALL the Arabs living there fancied themselves "Palestinians" as some did. Some were only interested in making some money on useless real estate and didn't care if it was Jewish or Kurdish money they were making. Then add in those Palestinian Jews, not the majority but a large minority who were also living on their own land and you begin to understand that you've been hearing a story all these years in the same proportion as the behavior on the street throughout the middle east regarding cartoons. Another words Jeff, no a whole lot of land was taken by Jews from Arabs living there. Some was, but not as much as the so called "victims" would have you believe.

""And I already know one thing you will say, "6 million dead". Maybe that number is accurate, I don't know."

Funny JEFF but its you that said it and NOT me. It sounds like you might have some doubts ? Pathetic. You've been brainwashed by such Jew haters that you disbelieve everything that has anything to do with Israel or Jews.

The biggest enemy of the Palestinians has been not Israel but Yasser Arafat who stole decades from them rejecting statehood in favor of an endless flow of cash from the EU into his Swiss accounts. No one from the left can bring themselves to accept this truth despite it now being common knowledge.

Remember all those dumb leftists travelling to Ramallah to pay homage to the thief? They can't bring themselves to deal with the fact that their hero was an out and out cheat and liar. This recent election is really all about that. Fatah = Arafat. Fatah = corruption.

So if you want to assign blame - blame Arafat for the dismal conditions the Palestinian Arabs find themselves in today. Arafat's Fatah is responsible and not the Jews ... Let those who have been responsible accept it. but like the babies they are, they refuse and people like you close their eyes and look elsewhere for blame.

"And then the west wonders why the muslims in the middle east are so pissed off....."


The west doesn't wonder the west knows these fascist Muslims aren't representative of more then a fraction of the Islamic world. They want nothing more than to drag everyone back to the 12th century. Guess what? No one really wants to go along ...

Maybe you do and some of your leftist friends ... but the rest of the world can recognize civilized from uncivilized. and we can recognize lies and propaganda from truth and reality.

check out your reality of the streets burning and wilding ... bunch of fascists who should be and will be crushed.
And that will be freeing the real Msulims
from this nightmare plague of Islamists who've hijacked them and their faith and sadly non Muslims like you ...

"Great idea. And let's include the Holocaust too."

Yeah include the holocaust ...
Why you thought I'd have some problem with that Ray? I don't ...

You think Ray, that its not done on an almost daily basis throughout the Muslim world ? Its no big deal ... If people find them funny then go for it ... why not.

And maybe we could seque to Ukrainian starvation by the Soviets, Armenian genocide by Turks, the Rwanda genocide .. black slavery and lynching ... lets go for it

GZlives,
So are you a racicist then?

"check out your reality of the streets burning and wilding ... bunch of fascists"
Are the blacks in the US that have been involved in all of the famous riots fascists also?
Are the south African blacks during apartied fascists also?
where the Americans in the Boston tea party fascists also? The British thought they were.
It just depends on what side of the fence you are standing on.

oppressed people sometimes fight back

JEFF,

I know I know .. war's a bitch right Jeff?

You attack five times and lose you're bound to actually lose something know what I mean? You endlessly threaten lives, terrorize people by blowing yourself up and them, you certainly can't be surprised when someone gets the idea to build a wall can you? I bet you'd be building a wall yourself given the same circumstances.

The Palestinians have shown an inability to control their armed militants that they have allowed to flourish mostly because these groups have been used for muscle on the streets. Arafat with al aqsa would counter balance Hamas. And now the monster they created has eaten them.

""check out your reality of the streets burning and wilding ... bunch of fascists""


Jeff these ARE fascists. These aren't just Muslims and if I said that I would be a racist but I never have said that nor do I believe that for a second. These are groups of Islamists which are indeed real live fascists and are all related to the Muslim Brotherhood which has alweasy been a fascist organization which began way back in the 1920's in Egypt. I think the non fascist Muslim has his head down keeping a low profile hoping someone will make this Islamist nightmare disappear.

Your rap about me being a racist is a bunch of blather ....

I feel bad to see how terribly naive you are. Seriously and dangerously naive.

GZ

I wasn't aiming at you per se. Just making a point about sacrosanct topics. The contrast with Muslims first came to mind, but it's mainly an attribute of religion.

And Ray ... how about Hiroshima cartoons, you know atomic bomb victims .. It shopuld work with those who enjoy holocaust laughs

i know Ray ... I'm just on a roll is all

GZ

I guess what it boils down to is that there are a lot of open sores out there. I think I'm entering a period of resignation. On one level, human society is a fucked up mess. On another level, it manages to hold together in peaceful harmony and produce an abundance of wealth. That's where I try to position myself. Yeh, we're looking at war and depression. But there ain't nothing I - we - can do about it except to try to position ourselves out of harms way.

The violent reactions on the part of the Muslims have many even here on this liberal minded website predisposed to vilifying the Muslim world. These events have polarized the West and Moslem worlds like no other since 911.

The president didn't manufacture the incident, but put little doubt in your mind that he will take full advantage of if and when it comes time to invade Iran.

... the west knows these fascist Muslims aren't representative of more then a fraction of the Islamic world.
Posted by GZlives at 2006-02-08 08:27 PM | Reply

GZ,
10% of the 1.8 million muslim population is radical. Meaning they want to see Israel wiped off the map and America burn like scattered pieces of firewood. That translates to over 180,000 radical muslims. That number alone should scare any breathing human.

don't condone what these people are doing.
I am saying that is more of a reason behind what they are doing than that they are just mindless fanatics.
Posted by JeffnDenmark at 2006-02-08 09:44 PM | Reply

Jeff,
Sure, lets feel sorry for the angry muslim. So oppressed by the man. So disenfranchised by the man. So discriminated by the man. Blame all their troubles on the man. Sound familiar? Why are they so troubled? Lets see ... no education ... no freedom ... no willingness to recognize or respect other religions or viewpoints ... the list goes on and on.
They ARE just mindless fanatics ... look at their response to cartoons!
Don't feel sorry for the angry muslim, question their methods and ideologies.

"we reject violence as a way to express discontent with what may be printed in a free press."

Says Bush, the guy who had plans to bomb AL Jazeera.

What a joke.

Islam a faith of peace.And their willing to behead the non-believers to prove it.

The only time he employed terror

Posted by briwo at 2006-02-08 06:23 PM | Reply

there are thousands of mass graves and people without body parts and relatives who would be able to give you a few more examples of sadaam employing terror....or do they not matter?

"I am saying that is more of a reason behind what they are doing than that they are just mindless fanatics.
You have to ask why people are so willing to give up there lives for something.
No hope, no future creates an environment of extremes in any part of the world."

So they're poor, mostly do the fact that they're leaders are horribly selfish but keep them distracted with a very demanding religion. And their reaction is to lash out at people drawing cartoons thousands of miles away.

Sorry but that makes them mindless fanatics. Thinking people aren't so easily manipulated.

outside of a houston mosque there was placed ON PUBLIC PROPERTY a sign demeaning islam......
the inmam or top jock is now trying to make it a HATE CRIME and to find out who it was.....nothing like a raghead living in our country trying to keep us from our right of free speach...or is this one of those cases where you liberals promotes
"selective freedom"


also if this is a hate crime and someone is arrested...then I expect them to arrest howard dean and hillary....we know she hates bush and dean has ADMITTED it..

I HATE REPUBLICANS....I believe was a direct quote.

" "What's really hurting me, the name Islam is involved, and Muslim is involved and causing trouble and starting hate and violence. ... Islam is not a killer religion. ... Islam means peace, I couldn't just sit home and watch people label Muslims as the reason for this problem."
from "Muhammad Ali Defends His Religion.", New York Daily News (p. 34), 21 September 2001, Colangelo, Lisa L. and Clem Richardson. "

That's what is missing from the discussions. Big names standing up and saying, "this is not how Islam should be acting."

"That's what is missing from the discussions. Big names standing up and saying, "this is not how Islam should be acting.""

Yeah but what was that quote about how he couldn't sit at home and watch people blame Muslims for this problem.

Obviously, if the Muslims are acting like animals over a cartoon, that's their problem. They're to blame.

Denying the problem is not the same as saying "You people are giving my religion a bad name and need to stop right now."

I wonder if the Muslims learned from Powell's UN speech how to misrepresent iformation to convince people to do something stupid.

You know, burn an embassy, invade a country...

Same deal, all lies.

oh please......EVERYTHING is our fault....right.....puuuulease.
....

this shows just how bankrupt and weak this religion is....I hate to see people blast christian and/or one particular part of christianity....but in many ways that makes us stronger and if there were reactions to things like this against christians.....the muslum problem would be solved because we would have destroyed much of the middle east already.

the destruction of isreal would only appease the radicals for a short while then they would seek to control the levant
on their way to their real goal world domination-see hitler and checkslovakia
jasman

the destruction of isreal would only appease the radicals for a short while then they would seek to control the levant
on their way to their real goal world domination-see hitler and checkslovakia


JASMAN

You of course have it exactly correct in my opinion but I fear there are so many naive apologists that just can't imagine this would be possible in the 21st century.
and yet .. it is and its right in front of them to see.

World domination is exactly what they are after and by the looks of the past few days, they have the ability to get people into the streets in a matter of hours.

What will it take to wake people up to how serious this threat really is?

CNN:
Do you believe some Middle East governments are inflaming the controversy over Mohammed cartoons?
Yes 93% 79319 votes
No 7% 5790 votes
Total: 85109 votes

World domination is exactly what they are after and by the looks of the past few days, they have the ability to get people into the streets in a matter of hours.

What will it take to wake people up to how serious this threat really is?

I appreciate your point and I am not immune to the real concern and worry I have about the future. I share some of them too.

That being said it is rhetoric like yours that has me concerned. I don't think you are a warmongerer, and my point here is not to characterize as such. It is just that your post represents a great deal of the tone and langauge used by many these days on both sides of the political fence.

These recents events are begining to polarize the West and the Islamic world in a way that even goes beyond the events of 911.

When this happens dialogue and diplomacy begin to shut down. I fear that all out war becomes inevitable because ALL involved begin to filter out any other possibility. Why talk to them when they is no doubt heard in the Starbucks of this country and the mosques of Islamic nations.

In order to set the stage for war we have to see the adversary as a single unit, a single massive threat to our lives. This is what we have begun to do. As we do this we squeeze out the voice of individuals and disregard the complexities of events for simple black and white statements found in cartoons among other places.

Such an environment makes it much easier for a desperate or politically troubled or inept leader to commit his people to a military conflict.

My real concern is that two years from now the daily body count of U.S. soldiers from Iran will catch up with the ongoing count from Iraq. The american people will then look back at the events of early 2006 and think if those filled body bags and wonder how we allowed ourselves to get into all of this.

PAX


BTW, I am not an utter pacifist. War is sometimes necessary. I don't think this is one of those times--certainly not at this stage.

Sorry

"Why talk to them when they is no doubt heard in the Starbucks of this country and the mosques of Islamic nations"

Should read "Why talk to them when they never listen or respect us" is no doubt heard in the Starbucks of this country and the mosques of Islamic nations

GZlives
most won't believe it till bill clinton-jimmie carter -jesse jackson and al sharpton say it-of course by then the white house will be a mosque
jasman

First: As you can read in the article this was a set up. Did you notice the PRINTED signs were in English -obviously directed at international consumption.

Syria has been under a lot of pressure INSIDE the muslim community due to its execution of the ex- minister of Lebanon that was tracked back to Assads brother. Iran has been under stress internally and externally due to the radical they put in charge. This was a way to deflect the pressure away from themselves and back at the US. This has been the strategy in the middle east for quite some time.

This is why changing the political structure in the middle east is so important.

As to body bags and how we got here - the political groups in charge in the middle east - from Hammas to Saud to Saddam all use to gen up hatred toward the west to deflect issues. We have 3000 body bags from the towers to prove it.

You wonder why we get so upset at the bad mouthing of Bush and the arm chair QBing on Iraq? It is because it is used to feed directly into the hands of Middle East power brokers and against the US. If it would stop for just a little bit the whole atmosphere would change.

PAX
we got into this by thinkin we were dealin with rational people -we are not all you have to do is see how christian and jews are portrayed in the arab media-what islam is sayin you should respect us and our point of view cause the rest of you is the seeds of satan-there is no respect for us or compromise with us in the islamic mind islam means submit
jasman

"That being said it is rhetoric like yours that has me concerned. I don't think you are a warmongerer, and my point here is not to characterize as such. It is just that your post represents a great deal of the tone and langauge used by many these days on both sides of the political fence. "

Frankly I don't believe we're hearing enough of my tone .. the entire cartoon controversy was manufactured and we know this now ... we know these so called demonstrations taking place in countries where no demonstration can take place without government sanctions are being coordinated for nafarious reasons - certainly not for anything benevolent.

The problem it seems to me are our apologists who want to perceive all Muslims as violent and angry. Its a racist approach and certainly not one I ascribe to. The most interesting thing I see is how many will completely disregard what I've been writing - differentiating between those so called Muslims that have literally hijacked Islam, and moderate Muslims who are keeping a very low profile praying all of this disappears - and paint me as some Muslim hater which is complete nonsense. Those who would try and make people believe that all Muslims are one in the same are the racists and are using very the ones using dangerous rhetoric.
Those fomenting the street violence are no different the Hitler's brownshirts and must be stood up to.

we got into this by thinkin we were dealin with rational people -we are not all you have to do is see how christian and jews are portrayed in the arab media-what islam is sayin you should respect us and our point of view cause the rest of you is the seeds of satan-there is no respect for us or compromise with us in the islamic mind islam means submit
jasman

We got into all of this because we assumed that the Muslim world values freedom as much as we do.

Consider these well known words:

We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

It is the self-evident part that is so foundational to Western society, particularly American. The problem is that the rights are not self-evident. If they were it wouldn't have taken 2000 years of Western history to codify them. You hear our president say it. "Freedom, they hate our Freedom." No they don't; they just don't value it the way we do. This just doesn't compute in the western mind because this is "self evident." These are basic assumptions that we forget are assumptions.

The Islamic world values piety over freedom. Personal freedoms take a backseat to what it believes is divine law. Islam is very rational but it will only seem so to us if we understand what their basic premise is.

Don't get me wrong. I talk about dialogue and diplomacy and I really don't have a clue as to how we should begin.

I do know, however, that forcing someone to accept someone else's' cultural values is unethical. That is what a great many Muslim wish to do with the West. They can't understand why we will not accept the divine word of God when it is so clear what He requires of us--submission through obedience to the Koran. To them it is self evident and we are irrational.


Gzlives,

I scrolled through some of your earlier post and though I have not completely digested them, I do see that your argument is much more nuanced than I gave you credit for. My apologies.

GRENDEL
Good point. When Franklin changed Jefferson's "sacred" to "self-evident" he was making a conscious effort to distance the rationale from any particular religion. In an Islamic world that wants Sharia Law this kind of thinking is anathema.

Good point. When Franklin changed Jefferson's "sacred" to "self-evident" he was making a conscious effort to distance the rationale from any particular religion.

Exactly, and thank God he did (a bit of an attempt at ironic humor there), and I say this as a practicing Catholic.

For Franklin, a product of the enlightenment, these rights were the product of rational thought. Yet, we should not forget that they were a product of western rational thought. Contrary to popular belief, rational thought does not always lead to the same conclusions. It all depends on where you begin--the assumptions or premises to your arguments.

Where Western thought, at least in Aristotelian models, begins with knowledge gained through experience, Islam begins in a very different place. It begins with knowledge revealed through a theophany--the Koran.

We should not wonder that it ends up somewhere very different either.

And Grendel, just as in 'Nam, we have invoked our world view to predict the behavior of those who do not share it. Nonetheless, the physical world works the same for everyone. The Catholic Church has outgrown the Inquisition and now contributes to astronomy where they once jailed Galileo. Other religions are not so enlightened.

Somehow my post got truncated.

I was also going to say:

Who is right? Well, we are obviously. Well, it seems so obvious to us that we have great difficulty admitting any other kind of thinking. As such it becomes very easy to label them as ignorant, superstitious, backward.


I think these labels mean as much to them as their label of infidel means to us.

It has no effect other than to incite and unify the side hurling the insult.

Cheers

Sorry about the multiple posts, but this is acting odd. I will try again later.

The Catholic Church has outgrown the Inquisition and now contributes to astronomy where they once jailed Galileo. Other religions are not so enlightened.

Also another good point. The debate between faith and reason, revelation and experiential knowledge has been at odds with each other for millenia in the West. The church has ever sought to reconcile the two and in the ensuing debate has grown from it.

What was perceived as a conflict turned into something useful and important to both areas. Unfortunately, there were casualities along the way, real casualties, not just metaphorical ones. Still, I think we have ended up in a pretty good place with the promise of greater work ahead.

What I think the problem with Islam is that the Koran is considered the exact word of God, rather than inspired by God as in Scripture. Despite what fundamentalist Christians say when scripture is "inspired" it demands interpretation. The collective thinking is ever seeking to answer the question "What does God mean here?" It is a search for meaning. Aside from some dogmatic principles, basic premeises, much of it is open ended. Theology as a discipline expands thought and the faith of the individual and the whole church.

If a text is considered the exact words of God, as in Islam, the demand is not interpretation but simple obedience and submission. Religion is not a search for meaning or a relationship with some kind of ultimate reality, it is the basis for conduct. Islam tells us not what to think as much as how to act. It is preoccupied with alw. As such, the assumption that these are the exact words of God render the Koran a closed text. There is not much there to expand on in regard to theology; in fact, Islamic theology is a very small discipline.

I have enjoyed the conversation. I don't know what happend to make my last few post little more than aborted efforts.

Cheers.

"I have enjoyed the conversation."

Good
I have been very busy today away from the 'puter.