Go Cindy Go.

Go Liberals!

Eh? First rule of assasination.... kill the assasine.....

You really have to wonder what it took to make the capitol police charge 1 woman with an actual crime, while 2 others mearly got escorted out.....

From the article:

The officers made a good faith, but mistaken effort to enforce an old unwritten interpretation of the prohibitions about demonstrating in the Capitol," Capitol Police Chief Terrance Gainer said in a statement late Wednesday.

"The policy and procedures were too vague," he added. "The failure to adequately prepare the officers is mine."

Sheehan would show the most class in this whole situation if she now just says she accepts their apology and let's it go at that. No lawsuits -- just say okay and let it be.

My guess is that is what she will do.

First Amendment?
We don't need no stinkin' First Amendment.
We got Jayzuzz' bro running the country.
But at least the cops were fair and balanced and threw out some Republican scumbags's ho.

First off, the precedent has already been set. They should have charged her.

Hell, the should have locked her ugly ass up!

I hope she tries to file a lawsuit. That way she'll be seen for what she really is. Some angry libreralist tree hugger trying to capitalize off of her sons death, and get her 15 minutes of fame.

Wearing a shirt to protesting is a stretch in and of itself.

Let the shirt with support troops go and the shirt with number of dead to jail is out right harassment and discrimination in its own right.

Sorry, I don't feel the same as CC I think Sheehan should run this to the full extent of the law and to the U.S. congress.

Me really thinks it was Bush but its all hush hush a protection kind of thing.

Should they have locked the Young's wife up as well? How about the invited guest of Hastings?

Are you actually Libertine or just another Republican unwilling to acknowledge your allegiance?

Damn, you're a borderline retard Walnutty... Why don't you take your low IQ to a community college and get that long dreamed of degree in basket weaving. And stay far far away from a computer or any device that will allow you to express your opinion to more than the reflection of your monkey ass. You should be caged an observed as an unnatural curiosity... A human with the mind of a chimp, how fascinating...

Don't kid yourself asswipe , cindy shithead does'nt even know what the word or meaning of " class" is , hell , she's a libcomscum , " class" is'nt even in their dictionary .There is'nt a demoncrap or libcomscum out there that has any class , you fools really are a joke .

Walnut,

The thing you miss is they arrested her and made her out to be this law breaking protestor when in reality she was not.

Sheehan is the victum here, why, pussy Bush and company can't be man or men enough to face here even if it is 100 yards away in the same room.

Now this shows we have a really chicken shit of a president.

First Amendment?
We don't need no stinkin' First Amendment.
We got Jayzuzz' bro running the country.
But at least the cops were fair and balanced and threw out some Republican scumbags's ho.

Posted by northguy3 at 2006-02-01 10:19 PM | Reply



You know it's funny the righty tighties claim that Cindy SHeehan is dishonoring Her Son's Memory and sacrifice by speaking out. I am here to say How DARE You besmirch Casey Sheehan's Memory and Sacrifice by castigating Cindy SHeehan for exersizing Her First Amenment rights. Isn't that doing a disservice to Casey Sheehan's Memory by NOT speaking out against Your government in times of National crisis. I dare say this is such a time. This is what Our forefathers fought and died for and if You believe the notion that this Iraq war is about defending Our Freedoms" it's why Casey Sheehan fought and died for His Mothers. That said I do not believe Cindy Sheehan was in any way shape or form protesting in the Capitol Building by just Her wearing that T Shirt. Apparently the cops don't think so either or else They would have not dismissed those charges.


Larry

She showed her lack of class when she walked in the room with her anti-American slogans , she's a fool , just another assclown .

Moneywar - you mean he was running it like he (Bush) ran his "town hall meetings" when people were thrown out for having a car with a bumper sticker on it (Colorado)? Or the two in South Carolina that were arrested and held for 3 days for having t-shirts on that weren't pro-GOP?

The list goes on. The behavior is the same. This was blatant and in front of the World. It should be an embarassment for an Administration that seeks to export "democracy" to the world.

"anti-American slogans" nice touch.

What did the t-shirt say again?

Prounamerica, Listen here, you vaginal blood fart. If you had one single brain cell that wasn't already engaged in involuntary functions(breathing, heartbeat, and apparently oral diarhea(sp)) you might check the facts. this has happened before with another president and the same thing happened. Except that person was charged. Now go sit back down on you swingset and cry for your mama to help to type.

I sure hope we can get cloture, so Alito will be nominated...oh wait....

YAV,

Not only an embarassment to the world but embarassment to our congressional leadership because they will do nothing showing that they have no control of our president, our laws, and have no wish to follow the constitution.

The whole congress should be embarassed.

You know it's funny the righty tighties claim that Cindy SHeehan is dishonoring Her Son's Memory and sacrifice by speaking out. I am here to say How DARE You besmirch Casey Sheehan's Memory and Sacrifice by castigating Cindy SHeehan for exersizing Her First Amenment rights. Isn't that doing a disservice to Casey Sheehan's Memory by NOT speaking out against Your government in times of National crisis. I dare say this is such a time. This is what Our forefathers fought and died for and if You believe the notion that this Iraq war is about defending Our Freedoms" it's why Casey Sheehan fought and died for His Mothers. That said I do not believe Cindy Sheehan was in any way shape or form protesting in the Capitol Building by just Her wearing that T Shirt. Apparently the cops don't think so either or else They would have not dismissed those charges.

Well,ass. The fact/belief here is that what she did goes against any moral code that i've ever known. As far as speaking out, that is her right. But it doesnt mean she isnt a bloody twat for doing so.

Oh and Thank God there was no "wardrob Malfunction" the horror of John Asscrap coming in with curtains to cover up the breasts of those exposed. Gawd I bet He could move at SUperman speed just to get there to "Save the day"


Larry

Sorry, I don't feel the same as CC I think Sheehan should run this to the full extent of the law and to the U.S. congress.

Me really thinks it was Bush but its all hush hush a protection kind of thing.

Posted by moneywar at 2006-02-01 10:37 PM

Come on Money - I was going to post as a TOTAL joke that "Bush knew and planned this"

You did it for me.

Larry,

Isn't that doing a disservice to Casey Sheehan's Memory by NOT speaking out against Your government in times of National crisis. I dare say this is such a time. This is what Our forefathers fought and died for and if You believe the notion that this Iraq war is about defending Our Freedoms" it's why Casey Sheehan fought and died for His Mothers.

as far as that goes, i know that if the situation were applied to me, or about 200 other people i know, i would disown my mother.

Walnut, "Bloody Twat"?? I haven't heard or read that for a long time.

Funny!!

Eberly, thanks, i try to liven up the mood every now and then.

That's funny? More like juvenile.

"I haven't heard or read that for a long time."

Me neither. Not since junior high school.

Eberly,

Sorry but early bird gets the worm!

Moneywar, there isn't much more that can be said. I don't know if it's naitivity or extreme hubris of this Administration is the most mind boggling.

Well Bill, its not my best by far, but it just seemed to fit her actions.

I truely like Sheehan, why, because she is waking up our nation to what our values of freedom are all about.

NY HOG

Your Kerry pic was a funny one. We'll have round of "dueling photos." That site I discovered has tons of some really funny political cartoons and they bash everybody -- both parties.

Yav,
I don't know if it's naitivity or extreme hubris of this Administration is the most mind boggling

I fail to see the naitivity on the administrations part. Those that appear to be naive are the likes of those not in power.

Sheehan would show the most class in this whole situation if she now just says she accepts their apology and let's it go at that. No lawsuits -- just say okay and let it be.
Posted by califchris

My guess is that is what she will do.
Posted by proamerica

Unfortunately, there are people she is listening to who will talk her into filing.

It's sad. I'm sorry for her, but she doesn't speak for me.

I'm supposed to get help to type??

I think the words you were trying to type you slow witted nimrod were: "GET HELP TYPING".

You know, if you're going to insult someones typing you chimp (walnutty), you need to verify that your typing is in order. Not doing so often makes you look like just another low IQ having, right wing cry baby who can't come to grips with his own stupidity.

Then again you are probably quite used to that perception, and if you aren't, well, get used to it.

Yav,
I don't know if it's naitivity or extreme hubris of this Administration is the most mind boggling

I fail to see the naitivity on the administrations part. Those that appear to be naive are the likes of those not in power.

Walnut,

but it just seemed to fit her actions.

You may not like what she does and how she is doing it but she is doing exactly what her son fought for.

Cali is correct in this and it is truely revealing how our government trounces on those very rights that they have sworn to protect.

Yav,
I don't know if it's naitivity or extreme hubris of this Administration is the most mind boggling

I fail to see the naitivity on the administrations part. Those that appear to be naive are the likes of those not in power.

truely like Sheehan, why, because she is waking up our nation to what our values of freedom are all about.


Posted by moneywar at 2006-02-01 10:56 PM


Money, thats fine - really. I believe the left will drop her like a bad habit as soon as they see her as a liability. In fact I would say that is happening right now.

It's time for her to start on her book.

I truely like Sheehan, why, because she is waking up our nation to what our values of freedom are all about.

One could not ask for a better polar opposite to Bush and the systematic reduction of our freedoms.

This was brilliantly illustrated by this arrest. You can buy this kind of publicity.

Walnut, then I assume it's pure, unmitigated hubris - as I suspected. Thanks for confirming.

Dan,

It's sad. I'm sorry for her, but she doesn't speak for me.

But in some ways she does speak for me.

Moneywar,
Clever name by the way
Yes her son did fight and die for her rights. I aknowledge and agree with that statement. But she created a public distubance which goes beyond peaceful protestation. In a seperate article, which she wrote, she states that wouldnt make a distubance out of embarassment for the person that invited her. Not because it wasnt the right time or place, but because she didnt want to make an ass of herself.

"I fail to see the naitivity on the administrations part."
Posted by walnuthill

With supporters like this, who needs detractors?

From the Republican Dictionary:

naitivity: a manger scene depicting stupidity.

"naitivity"

Are you struggling to spell the word "naivete"?

"Not doing so often makes you look like just another low IQ having, right wing cry baby who can't come to grips with his own stupidity"

Proliberal, "cry baby"? Who??? - right wing cry baby?

That is a good one - "can't come to grips"??

WTF do you think 90% of this blog is? I like this because it is exchange of ideas but I don't know how you can say that.

"But in some ways she does speak for me."
Posted by moneywar

Cool. You have that right.

Danforth,
if the comment is about my spelling, I appologize. I mearly used the spelling of the comment i was speaking of. ass

Eberly,

I agree, the democratic party will try to drop her.

I would not vote for her if she ran but I do like what she is doing as far as her protesting. It shows that America has become far to complacent in fighting for our rights and freedoms.

Walnutty, you dunce, "naitivity" isn't a word you borderline retard. Man, just give it up, you can't insult someones typing then forget how to spell half the multi-syllabic words in the english language. I love watching the righties make themselves out to be narrowminded borderline retards. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

BillO,

Beat you by one minute again!

Of course, that's not desirable in every case....

"mearly"?

Surely you meant "merely", you illiterate moron.

"appologize"

LOL.

Yes her son did fight and die for her rights. I aknowledge and agree with that statement. But she created a public distubance which goes beyond peaceful protestation. In a seperate article, which she wrote, she states that wouldnt make a distubance out of embarassment for the person that invited her. Not because it wasnt the right time or place, but because she didnt want to make an ass of herself.

Posted by walnuthill at 2006-02-01 11:04 PM | Reply


Ummmm then we are ALL guilty of making a disturbance when we are out in public since we all wear clothing some with words some without. By just sitting down in the same room and keeping quiet how are we making a disturbance whatever Our shits say or don't say ??


Larry

Dan and Bill,

You two are cracking me up.

Danforth, I know, damn it! :)

" I mearly used the spelling of the comment i was speaking of"
Posted by walnuthill

Yes, you "mearly" did.

Mea culpa.

Yav,
Walnut, then I assume it's pure, unmitigated hubris - as I suspected. Thanks for confirming.

What you may see as unmitigated ego, others(the majority might I add) see it as giving a little to gain and keep a whole lot more.

As I've said many times, the Chimp just has a way about him and around him. a Kinda reverse charisma: everything he touches turns to shit.

Don't ya dare touch the bubble or something bad will happen to you.

From the Republican Dictionary:

naitivity: a manger scene depicting stupidity.

Hehheh, yes, he may have inadvertently coined the perfect word to describe himself and millions like him.

Got you that time, Dan.

The problem with Bush is he acts before he thinks things through. So this leave no plan and a failure in planning is a plan in failure.

Lamemore,

Ummmm then we are ALL guilty of making a disturbance when we are out in public since we all wear clothing some with words some without. By just sitting down in the same room and keeping quiet how are we making a disturbance whatever Our shits say or don't say ??

No. in this instance, its more a case of public decency. Just like you wouldnt dream of walking into a maternity ward wearing a t-shirt that said something to the effect of "Overpopulation is a problem. Kill all the babies!" its just not decent.

ProAmerica,

As long as I get residual rights!

"Just like you wouldnt dream of walking into a maternity ward wearing a t-shirt that said something to the effect of "Overpopulation is a problem. Kill all the babies!" its just not decent."



That is a freaking funny similie.

Rex,

Don't you know the minute you post something that has the perjorative "whore" in the first sentence, describing the subject, we can all tell there's a slant?!?

Zeit...well said. can i buy you a beer?

Dan3rd,
How about concentrating on the substance of a comment rather than just slamming someone b/c of their pollitical affiliation.

Any time Walnut....and all props go to JimK at Moorewatch on this one....he said it well, with a tinge of humor....Something I can't muster when it comes to Sheehog.....

Rex

or would that be too much to ask from someone that doesnt listen to reason

You mean substance like this?:

Prounamerica, Listen here, you vaginal blood fart. If you had one single brain cell .....

posted by WalnutHill

Don't you know the minute you post something that has the perjorative "whore" in the first sentence, describing the subject, we can all tell there's a slant?!?

LMAO! No shit!

Dan when it comes to Cindy, there is nothing BUT slant........one way or the other.......

Zeit,
the whole thing about her son. It just reiterates everthing that is wrong with that poor womans morals.

Billnotreally,
Well, when answering an insult, one must respond in kind, to ensure that you are speaking to the person on his/her level.

WalnutHill,

Make a comment of substance, and I'll comment.

Rex,

C'mon. You start with "whore", and then go to "Sheehog"?

If you want respect, earn it. Call people---even those with whom you disagree---by their names. That's a start, if you're interested.

Walnut......I think it has absolutely nothing and everything to do with Casey......How many soldiers have lost their lives in the name of America?......hundreds of thousands, how many mothers have used it for a radical, leftist, 'personal' agenda?.... ONE...........

I am flabbergasted by the people who back this women.....Are they blind, stupid, or so full of hatred for the President of the United States they will embrace even the most disturbed of indivuduals........or all of the above......?

I really get sick to my stomach when I see her.....and even sicker when I read her lies and anti American garbage.....


Trying to pass her of as a greiving mother is so disingenious and false, it defies reality when people stick up for this pig..........

Chickenlittle,

As the sky falls stay with Rex, he does have some ability of protecting ya.

Danforth.......respect???? What the fuck are you talking about?........When I want yours or any others 'respect', I will let you know.......Anyone that backs Sheefilth has ZERO respect from me.......

And I am not trying to start a fight with you Danforth......But I could care less if someone respects my opinion or not.....the fact is, like minded people respect other like minded people.....

Yawn.......

it defies reality when people stick up for this pig..........

Are you talking about Bush?

Rex,

I wasn't talking about MY respect. I was talking about ANYONE'S respect.

Live where you will.

If you want respect, earn it. Call people---even those with whom you disagree---by their names. That's a start, if you're interested.

Posted by Danforth at 2006-02-01 11:35 PM

This is a precious one!! A rule for everybody here at DR.

Rex,

LOL! the fact is, like minded people respect other like minded people.....

I shall be nice, but just this time.

Danny,
you just did.
But aside from that, here's a notion. Everyone that incessantly whines about bush, our military, and how the country is been run, has options. Stay here and keep whining, get your facts straight, or you can take a cue from our forefathers and move the fuck out. It would appear to the casual observer that, not only do all of your arguments lack any logical or factual backing, but you never accomplish anything. Despite all of your complaining nothing moves forward. Despite all of the prostesting, nothing has changed. And do you know why this is? No? Well I'll educate you. Beacause you are the minority. Most of the rest of the country knows the facts, and realizes that your lot are a bunch of short sighted dim witted fools. The only reason that those particular establishments have allied with Sheehan is because they see her as a way to get attention. Soon, I think, she will be tossed to the curb, along with yesterday's trash.

"the fact is, like minded people respect other like minded people"

In other words, they only respect people that agree with them.

Danny,
atleast thats the way it appeared to me. I watched people post comments here for 3 weeks. Not one of your kind ever made any sense. You just threw verbal feces around and insulted people.

Walnut,

Despite all of the prostesting, nothing has changed. And do you know why this is? No? Well I'll educate you. Beacause you are the minority.

I will be nice to you this one time too. Now please put out something of value or you will get slammed.

I know Dan, Bill, and myself will make you look more foolish than you already have made of yourself. Please say something of content value.

Just for the record, what was it that the Sheehan shirt said?

The Republican member's wife's shirt?

Why again was it political, either time?

Which one got arrested and which one didn't?

Much obliged.

Regards,
etc.

"Stay here and keep whining, get your facts straight, or you can take a cue from our forefathers and move the fuck out. "

America, love it or leave it. Tell you what. If you don't appreciate those who don't salivate over every word spoken by Dear Leader, why don't YOU get the fuck out?

"prostesting,"? "Beacause"?

And YOU are going to educate us? Hahahaha.

$$$$,
Value...
Hmmmm, how's the FACT that eventhough we are over in Iraq, not one of you seems thakful of the sacrifices that our brave men and women have made. I would call that unpatriotic. If that is true, then i suggest you go where the grass is greener....

...Sorry. "thankful"...

Billy,
atleast thats the way it appeared to me. I watched people post comments here for 3 weeks. Not one of your kind ever made any sense. You just threw verbal feces around and insulted people.

"Stay here and keep whining, get your facts straight, or you can take a cue from our forefathers and move the fuck out."

I've been through that before: "America, love it or leave it". It was total bullshit then, and it's total bullshit now. You're suggesting leaders of this country are infallible. Somehow I doubt that was your position with the prior President, or will be you position with the next one.

Oh, and one other tiny thing: the Constitution disagrees with you. So tell us, is that your deal? Invoke the Constitution when it helps your cause, ignore it when it's inconvienient?!?

Come to think of it, you're very similar to our current President.

Dang! BillO, you beat me!!!

The worm turns....

Bill,
Tell you what. If you don't appreciate those who don't salivate over every word spoken by Dear Leader, why don't YOU get the fuck out?

I've already served my country. It goes back to the addage "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it." I appreciate you and those like you for what you are.

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
~ Theodore Roosevelt

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."
~ Theodore Roosevelt


Larry

Walnut,

The republican party has the house, the senate, the judiciary, and the executive branch and really have nothing to show but profits for corporate America.

45.5 million with out health care
18.2 million children in poverty
12.7% of the population in poverty
Falling wages for most of America
mortgage and consumer debt is 115% of after tax income.
Loss of freedoms and rights
2300 dead soldiers

I could go on and on. Never in our history has so little been done with such over all majority of occupying the entire governmental system.

If you have not figured this out no one can help ya.

" It would appear to the casual observer that, not only do all of your arguments lack any logical or factual backing, but you never accomplish anything. Despite all of your complaining nothing moves forward. Despite all of the prostesting, nothing has changed"

If that's what would "appear to the casual observer", the observer should be a little more observant. Massachusettes, and several states since then, are realizing separate but equal is always separate, yet never equal. To suggest "nothing moves forward" begs the question: Where is your head, in the sand or between your buttcheeks?

"I've already served my country"

What does that mean?

What no answer to my other post?

Hmmmm, how's the FACT that eventhough we are over in Iraq, not one of you seems thakful of the sacrifices that our brave men and women have made. I would call that unpatriotic. If that is true, then i suggest you go where the grass is greener....

I in no way am suggesting that the leaders of our dear country are infallible. Yes that was my position with the previous president, and will be my position from here on out. I think that because GWB is so riddled with flaws is what makes him great. Its a constant reminder that noone is without their shortcomings.

Bill,

What does that mean?

I am referring to the fact that I was a member of the US Navy

Walnut,

not one of you seems thakful of the sacrifices that our brave men and women have made.

Thakful? Man, get a spell check or are you just drunk.

Thakful, is that like sending flak up at airplanes but with words on a blog.

$$$$,
and yet you still are sitting there chatting away. Must mean that you are a white middle class male. At least that's who I'm told wasn't affected.

$$$$
Thakful? Man, get a spell check or are you just drunk.

Thakful, is that like sending flak up at airplanes but with words on a blog.

First off, read the post following that one.

Next, See my comment about verbal feces and insults.

WalnutHill,

Make no mistake (or, rather, no NEW mistakes). I am VERY "thakful" for the soldiers' sacrifice, particularly since I have two nephews in Iraq. (Actually, just one: the other just finished his second tour and cannot be further stop-lossed.) And I resent, the fact I want the precious lives of our soldiers to be valued, is wildly misinterpreted as disloyalty. On the contrary, it is much more loyal than those who would treat our most valuable as cannon fodder.

" am referring to the fact that I was a member of the US Navy"

And is that greater service to this country than being a school teacher? A doctor? A small businessman?

Or are you just under the illusion that military service is the only way to serve one's country?

And since when did "serving one's country" become the primary purpose of human existence?

Dan,
By the way, even with stoploss, there are ways out.

wallnutshill-rotnutz-
Dance-monkeys-dance, shit boys-I would've thought you'd had enough of getting your ass beaten like red-headed step-kids-but I guess not-
Look bozos-everytime you post bullshit-you show yourselves for the ignorant phucks you really are.
Arresting her for wearing a t-shirt with the numbers of American in Iraq is simply an act of desparation by an Administration that is out of control, and considers itself above the law. They will find-eventually-that NO ONE is above the law in this country. The voters will prove that- now monkeys go runnin' for mama-(smack)bad monkeys!(smack!) Go fling your monkey crap back at the RNC where you got it from...
Rexxy-you sub moronic blithering turd stained asswipe-That woman knew her son one HELL of a lot better than you ever will. the whole bunch of you stupid rethug-talking-point-spouting-
koolaide drinkin'-bushleaguesuckin'-
butt-phuckers can kiss my ass.

Bill,
Now you are just debating semantics. But just for the record, If a schooltecher got paid as little as I did for as little as they do, then I would agree with you. But without serving it is impossible to fully appreciate what it is that they go through. And without them, there would be no America to teach school in, have a business in, or help the sick in.

My best friend just got a stop-loss - while in Iraq. 9 months from retirement. Special needs kid at home - but he'll serve, because he is an American first and loyal to his core.

Oh, and though I fully support our Troops, I do NOT support this Administration. The two are not exclusive by any means.

It is the lowest blow to question someone's patriotism because you disagree with them.

Frank, your face is so ugly, your ass would be preferable.....We need to make a special thread for retards like yourself to vent......That way you wouldn't feel so over matched intellectually, overmatched by everyone else on the Retort.......

Danny,
i see you up. I'll be back shortly. i have to go work for a few minutes

Walnut,

Hmmmm, how's the FACT that eventhough we are over in Iraq, not one of you seems thakful of the sacrifices that our brave men and women have made.

How about the fact that our posts have nothing to do with our men and women of service and the sacrifices they have made.

The fact is we care much more than you ever will by supporting the troops by our voice in such an ill planned out endever made on poorly judged facts which people like you just seemed to over look for the sake of What? The president's say so!

You trying to draw a conclusion of lack of support because of our dissatisfaction with a poor decision of our supposed leader is not well thought out and quite sophmoric.

Aw yav-that's one of their greatest hits-we're all so obviously communist sympathizers-it's a wonder we haven't all been arrested for treason..
After all-NOTHING-even the lives of our Best and Brightest-is more important than sucking up to the lying greedy futhermuckers who sent them there-undermanned and underequipped-to die for corporate profits.

Don't agree, Walnut. School teachers, etc., are just as important. Your self-evaluation is just a conceit.

"And without them, there would be no America to teach school in, have a business in, or help the sick in."

And without schoolteachers, doctors, small businessmen, etc., living in a democratic society, the warriors would have nothing to defend that was worth defending.

"If a schooltecher got paid as little as I did for as little as they do..."
posteby walnuthill

If they are a "schooltecher", they deserve to be paid as little as you are.

Wow! now it is my turn. Sophomoric

Overmatched? By a bunch of mentally deficient rethugli'tards, excuse me while I laugh 'till I ALMOST pee my pants.........................
..............................
..............................
..............................
..........all of you morons together couldn't think your way out of a wet paper bag.

all of you morons together couldn't think your way out of a wet paper bag.

There's only one way to really find out. . .

"...without schoolteachers, doctors, small businessmen, etc., living in a democratic society, the warriors would have nothing to defend that was worth defending."
Posted by bill_oreilly

GREAT point.

I take back everything I said that contained the word "falafel".

"Danny, i see you up."
Posted by walnuthill

Yea...I "up".


(wtf?!?)

"Sorry for violating your right to freedom of speech, Cindy. Our bad, dawg.

Sorry about roughing you up, and trying to throw you down the stairs. Please don't sue us!"

I guess if you don't sign the "Loyalty Oath", you aren't allowed any rights. After all, the president does not have to respect the rights of citizens, the constitution, or laws.

Yav-'struth-but-we'd have actually Handle them to get 'em into a paper bag--and these monkeys have shown a particular fondness for flingin' crap and hissing, I guess they might have to be tranquilized to get them in there safely.........

Walnut,

But without serving it is impossible to fully appreciate what it is that they go through. And without them, there would be no America to teach school in, have a business in, or help the sick in.

Your logic is lacking, without the teachers there would be no troops either. We would be throwing rocks.

Everyone has a vital supporting role in this country, from the garbage person to the soldier, to the teacher, to the citizen. Each one has their own patriotic duty, one is to physically fight our battles and another is to make sure our battles are correct and well motivated.

The republic is not the government it is the people. When the republic thinks it is the people shit happens, like now, and the patriotic people fight to get the voice and actions back to the people.

For all present, the precedent has already been set, as far as the t-shirt thing. My last comment was to frank, not danny. My fault. Oh and about the teachers being more important. I dont disagree.
Frank, please refer to my comment about verbal feces and insults. I have nothing more to say to you at this point. that is unless you are willing to make a comment that would contribute to the discussion.

The republic is not the government it is the people. When the republic thinks it is the people shit happens, like now, and the patriotic people fight to get the voice and actions back to the people.



Posted by moneywar at 2006-02-02 12:32 AM | Reply


Which I suspect-actually means that-it's the ones who yammer the most about it being our patriotic duty to support the pResident-are the ones who TRULY the ones who are being disloyal-to the country, and, abusive, to our troops, for sending them into harm's way without a valid reason..

Frank, my guess is (and its an educated guess) your house smells like urine and halitosis breath, tinged with cigarette smoke and canned sardines......Now,.. tell me I am wrong......

Walnut,

What are your thoughts regarding Cohen v California (USSC, 1971) as it relates to this case?

patriotism

n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it

Can you argue with webster's?

Thomas Jefferson Dissent the HIGHEST form of Patriotism. WHy would You argue with one of the Founding Fathers WalNut??

Larry

Dan,
When Free speech begins to infrige on the rights of others not to be offended, then that person has cast aside his right to say it. those are my thoughts.

What-so you can argue in circles like you did last night? And demand answers to questions I'd already answered?
I have-many times-contributed a great deal to the discussions on this board. You, on the other hand, have done nothing but post regurgitated rethug talking points and insult our intelligence with ridiculous assertions.

"Frank, my guess is (and its an educated guess) your house smells like urine and halitosis breath, tinged with cigarette smoke and canned sardines......Now,.. tell me I am wrong......"
Posted by zeitgiest

Rex,

Good use of the first name. Now, next time, try it without a forgotten apostrophe, a misplaced comma, a forgotten comma, and two misuses of ellipses, especially if you want to call it an "educated" guess.

BTW, final score: Seahawks 33, Steelers 13.

The First Amendment not only covers that speech in which the Majority approves of it also protects that speech that the majority most hate. It is for that speech that the Majority most hate is EXACTLY why there is a First Amendment right to Free Speech.

Larry

larry
Misattributed: 'Dissent Is the Highest Form of Patriotism'
Google the phrase "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" along with the name "Thomas Jefferson" and you will find thousands of Web pages attributing the sentiment to the third president of the United States. The trouble is, says reader Dave Forsmark, who has been waging a one-man campaign to correct what he believes to be a blatant misattribution, "the quote is about two years old, not 200. It was made by [historian] Howard Zinn in an interview with TomPaine.com to justify his opposition to the War on Terror." Someone erroneously attributed the quote to Jefferson soon thereafter, and now seemingly everyone is doing it.
Copied from urban legends website

Alright walnut-I'll bite-how does webster's def of patriotism translate to Automatic support for the pResident? AND, preclude the possibility that ANYONE who disagrees with him could be "Patriotic"?

WalNut do so ever try yet again it was Thomas Jefferson who stated it. Sorry wrongo.

Larry

patriotism Show phonetics
noun [U]
when you love your country and are proud of it

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

"When Free speech begins to infrige on the rights of others not to be offended..."

"Free speech" I find in the Bill of Rights.

Forgive my ignorance, but where do you find a "right...not to be offended".

Last night's near-abduction proves Bush would like a "right" similar to that, but where do you find that in the Constitution, or in any law?

Sorry,
I have a movie to watch. I'll be back in a few days to dipell any myths. By the way, the precedent has been set. During Clintons impeachment trial, there was someone arrested for wearing an anti-clinton t-shirt. This Person was charged and sentanced. Therefore, going along with this precedent, she should go to jail!

Good call on the game Dan........

And BTW......I use the 'stream of consiousness' form of bloggin'.....It suits my purposes, better then formal sentence structure......

Oh, because head is the ELECTED leader of this country. Its most prominent representative. Therefore, by progression of logic, to hate him is to hate this country. Go the fuck home. Personally, I dont want to go back to the land of the norse

"I use the 'stream of consiousness' form of bloggin'"

Very Joycean.

Yer posts remind Spud of "Tropic of Cancer".

...Not so much the Tropic part ya understand.

Be Well.

That's the rub. I love America and would live nowhere else-and I have been around some. I have a great deal of respect for the OFFICE of the pResident-but the resident himself is just a National Lottery Winner. IN PERSON he will get the respect from me that his OFFICE accords him. In my own speech-both public and private-I'm entitled to disagree with him and will continue to do so.
And no amount of blather by the kool-aide drinkers is going to make stick the charge that I don't support the troops. Anyone who knows me personally would tell you how wrong you and your ilk are about that.

Walnut, arguing reality with Larry is like explain nuclear physics to a cat.......It will never work, he lives in a different plane of exitstance.....

I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.-Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson

What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?-Thomas Jefferson

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.-Thomas Jefferson

A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.-Thomas Jefferson

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.-Thomas Jefferson

rexxy-WHY would you try to explain nuclear physics to a cat-even the most brain-dead cat can outhink an Automated Rethug Response System(TM) graduate.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it..-Thomas Jefferson

Here are some other quotes, Moneywar:

... legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property... Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right.
Thomas Jefferson (in a letter to James Madison), 1785

Frank, the knee jerk left are the predictable ones.......If it hates the President, it must be correct.........That is the lefts credo, you live it; you wallow in it.....


The left lacks any independant thought, it reacts like a lemming in the spring or a cow to a salt lick.......You don't know why you lick the hate, it just tastes so good......

WALNUTHILL

I think that because GWB is so riddled with flaws is what makes him great. Its a constant reminder that noone is without their shortcomings.


That's fine that YOU are so forgiving of that idiot's "flaws and shortcomings" IF said idiot didn't have the power to drag our entire country into war -- and most likely another one [with Iran] soon to follow.

A person's shortcomings, arrogance, stupidity, greediness, ignorance, and inability to tell the truth are usually that person's alone to deal with [along with his immediate family, co-workers, and friends -- if he has any]. But those traits are NOT acceptable in a person who also happens to be the President of the U.S. with the ability to be in command and order thousands of men to their deaths. All men have flaws -- but Bush refuses to recognize any in himself and that in itself is dangerous to the point of being deadly for all concerned.

"by progression of logic, to hate him is to hate this country."
posted by WalnutHill

Clear proof of no progression, and no logic.

I'll say it again: with supporters like these, who needs detractors?

It never ceases to amaze me how Bush's knob droolers continue to come up with ways of praising his incompetance and failure. They just LOVE the Emperor's new clothes. Don't you?

Such a mental powerhouse; it's quite extraordinary how this genius is unable to string three words together. Condi and Mier both thing Bush is the smartest man alive, and we all know what mental powerhouses they themselves are.

Show Condi a list of Al Jazeera, Al Qaeda, and Al Zawahiri, and she will wonder what you need to know about those three Al guys. But perhaps she can say it in her 'fluent' Russian. Da! Nyet! Da! Nyet!

Let me take a stab at this:
Cindy Sheehan & her far left supporters call Bush a terrorist. Sheehan visits an actual dictator, Hugo Chavez, and pronounces Bush the more dangerous of the two. And then she shows up at the State of the Union address and rips her jacket off to reveal a tight fitting protest shirt.

Sounds like stalking to me.

Terrorist? Lefties go down on their knees to appease terrorists.

Oh, I get it. Sheehan has been trying to get Bush alone to gobble his crank.

Sheehan, Bush is not Bill Clinton. Leave the man alone!!!!

WalnutHill--

"Therefore, by progression of logic, to hate him is to hate this country"

I'd really like to see that progression of logic. It would have to be the best laugh of the day.

It would be like saying since Clinton was ELECTED the leader of this country--to hate Clinton means you hate the country. So WalnutHill must be a Clinton lover.

But I will wait for that progression of "logic".

Rabblerouser---Tell me what a terrorist does that Bush doesn't do.

Tell me the difference between a terrorist and a Viet Cong?

Buffalo Bob----Tell me, what does a leftist do other than try to rationalize the irrational?

Viet Cong? Charlie? You are showing your age, Bob.
I thought you leftists referred Charlie and others as "freedom fighters".
I guess Georgie is a freedom fighter, too.

I'm glad the police apologized for "arresting her" but removing her was their lawful duty.

In "Title 40, sub.2, part B, chap. 5104 sec.F of the US Code, It states that " a person may not display in the (Capitol) Grounds a flag, banner, or device designed or adapted to bring into public notice a party, organization, or movement.

Ms. Sheehan went into the Capitol gallery with the intent to show off a T-shirt she designed for the stated purpose of bringing into public notice the anti-war movement she has become identified with. Similarly, Ms. Young wore a shirt to the contrary that said, "Support Our Troops". By removing both of them, the Capitol police acted in a fair minded and lawful manner. And there is nothing in their actions, as Ms. Sheehan is claiming, that suggests they acted in a partisan manner to intentionally violate her First Amendment rights.

Sheehan visits an actual dictator, Hugo Chavez, and pronounces Bush the more dangerous of the two.

Take another swig of the Far-Right kool aid.

Chavez was fairly elected, since Venezuela is a DEMOCRACY, you fucking retard. And furthermore, the far right hates Chavez because they failed to overthrow the democratic government there just recently.

Read your history, kid. The Bush family has destroyed more democracies in this world than any other group in the history of mankind.

Let me take a stab at this:
Cindy Sheehan & her far left supporters call Bush a terrorist. Sheehan visits an actual dictator, Hugo Chavez, and pronounces Bush the more dangerous of the two.

Posted by rabblerouser at 2006-02-02 09:47 AM

Chavez is a Dictator? Since when? Chavez was elected in 1998, again in 2000. The fact that he is criticized mostly by Venezuela's middle class and upper classes says something about him being for the "regular" working class people.
Here is some info on Chavez, since most people here only seem to have their idea's based on something they heard on Lush Rimbaugh or Faux.
Components of Hugo Chvez's Bolivarianism:
* 1. Venezuelan economic and political sovereignty (anti-imperialism).
* 2. Grassroots political participation of the population via popular votes and referenda (participatory democracy).
* 3. Economic self-sufficiency (in food, consumer durables, et cetera).
* 4. Instilling in people a national ethic of patriotic service.
* 5. Equitable distribution of Venezuela's vast oil revenues.
* 6. Eliminating corruption.

Ya, he sounds like a tyrant! lol
And he has stated he loves the American people, but he hates America's foreign policy (who doesn't?).



Well Lokisfur, I guess Sheehan won't have much of a case then will she? Or were her civil rights abused? False arrest and getting roughed up sounds like an abuse, and if you feel your civil rights are abused, I think it is your duty to hold the government responsible!

Behind the scenes, Bushco also tried to oust the democratically elected representative of the Venezuelan people a few years back if you recall.

I'd think that the act of a dictator, lacking respect for the people.

But then Bush's democracy project isn't reaping large rewards in Iran, Iraq, or Palestine either.

Time for regime change there too - hit me baby one more time!

Regards,
etc.

Big John 1972,

I guess Fidel Castro and Robert Mugabe are going to be a shock to you as well.

And since when does the fact that Chavez was elected mean a damned thing?

Huey Long was elected. What about Bush? Was the election fixed or wasn't it?
If it was then if it can happen here it can certainly happen in Venezula.

Big John:

Whether Sheehan's case has traction remains to be seen....I am just merely pointing out that the "Capitol Police" are not some right wing gestapo that does Bush's bidding.

The Police had a legitimate and lawful reason for removing Sheehan from the gallery.

Apparently, they should have just removed her and not arrested her....so Sheehan will make them pay for their mistake....Sheehan wants blood from everyone that doesn't agree with her....she has far more WMDs in her head pointed at Bush then the rest of the world combined.

And then calls herself a pacifist...ha!!!

Isn't it interesting that the same person who has been asking for an apology from Bush can't accept an apology from the Police.

Sheehan is a very mean spirited an ego driven woman.

Big John, Just Some Guy and other crazed lefties,

I hate inconsistentcy. If you are going to have a scruple or principle, then stick to it. You will earn more respect that way.

Leftists love terrorists. You all established that by preferring the Palestinian over the Jew and Al-Qaeda over our troops. (Remember Sheehan's freedom fighters comment.)

Calling Bush a terrorist is retarded. And it is inconsistent. If he were actually a terrorist you would love him.

And by the way, what is up with killing babies and saving murderers from being put to death?

I say death all around.

At least I am consistent.

"""If it was then if it can happen here it can certainly happen in Venezula."""

Jimmy Carter, the worldwide respected humanitarian and elections monitor for the UN said that he felt the 2004 election standards in the US, especially certain states like Florida and Illinois would not be acceptable to the UN but that the Venezuelan elections were conducted transparently. Until the right wing lunatic Jeb Bush allows a paper train in Florida all elections here will be suspect. BTW, Chavez did not win a close election...he won by a landslide.
But don't let the facts bother you.

Thanks Danni for re-enforcing what I have said for years. Lefties think by feeling.

That is to say, logic means nothing to you. We had a fixed election because the media said so. And Venezula did not because Jimmy Carter said so.

That is sooo logical.

I don't respect Jimmy Carter. He is an ignorant redneck. Neither would you if he didn't parrot what you already believe.

OH' WERE SORRY BITCH!

"""We had a fixed election because the media said so."""

No...I didn't say it was fixed, I said it was suspect because of the lack of a paper trail, which, BTW, is required under the Florida State Constitution.
Tell me....why are REpublicans so afraid of a verifiable election system???
Why is Jeb Bush afraid of a paper trail???

"""He is an ignorant redneck."""

Sorry, but he is actually a nuclear physicist. To you that would be nukular I know but you really reveal your own ignorance by attacking Jimmy Carter.
BTW, when was the last time Nelson Mandela hung out with you????
How many Nobel prizes have you won???

Pathetic.

Why are leftists so afraid to show ID at the polls? Why is it always detrimental to minorities, the elderly and the poor even when the ID is free?

Jimmy Carter may be a nuclear scientist, but he claims to have seen a UFO. And that is among the least embarassing things he has said.

Any dumbass can be nominated and win the Nobel Peace Prize. Remember Arafat? Just open your mouth and let the right kind of bullshit come out and you win. There are no standards except that you are mentally retarded (no offense intended to the actually mentally retarded people on this site).

By removing both of them, the Capitol police acted in a fair minded and lawful manner. And there is nothing in their actions, as Ms. Sheehan is claiming, that suggests they acted in a partisan manner to intentionally violate her First Amendment rights.

What's "fair minded" about arresting one and not the other? Are you just making shit up as you go along?

And don't you think the Capitol Cops were on notice re: Sheehan's appearance?

Any dumbass can be nominated and win the Nobel Peace Prize.

So what is your problem? Your not just any dumbass but a dummer dumbass than normal.

RabbleRouser,

WTF?!? Have you no reading or comprehension skills?!?

Danni responded with the following FACTS:

Jimmy Carter oversaw the Venezuelan elections, and pronounced them more transparant than state elections in Florida and Ohio.

Jeb Bush to this day stands against paper trails for voting machines.

Chavez was elected in a landslide.

...and then you accuse her of responding with her FEELINGS.

Do you need a link to a dictionary?

If Cindy Sheehan hadn't lost her son, I would perhaps agree with some of the posters here who believe she's a political opportunist and little else. However, given her loss, I believe she is doing what she genuinely thinks is right. Perhaps, as some have stated, her son Casey wouldn't approve of what she's doing in his name, so to speak, however, it's her right to do so.

I can't believe some of the vile things some of you have said about this poor woman; most of which I have to assume are in aid of defending Bush's war policies. I mean, agree to disagree, but since, as we're so often told, other nation's "hate us for our freedom," how can you so vehemently hope to deny that very freedom to this gold star mom?

That being said, I also don't think she should have used the SOTU as a forum for her protests, even it they were limited solely to a t-shirt. But again, she does seem very passionate about this cause, and you have to admit that her notoriety has served to galvanize an anti-war movement. Actually, "anti-war" might be off the mark; there are justified conflicts, a lot of us don't believe Iraq ranks among them.

Danforth,

What makes a fact a fact, you pathetic peckerhead? Because Jimmy Carter says so?
Because our unbiased media says so? A landslide can be accomplished with illegal votes as well.


Moneywar,

You win the Nobel Peace Prize and I rest my case.

Cindy should press forward with her lawsuit.

The whole "oops me bad sorry" bullshit does not fly this time.

This is about violation of rights to free speech. The capitol hill police admit to wrong doing by arresting her and should now pay for this transgression.

Basically it comes down to accepting responsibility for their actions. If they were let off the hook now what would stop them from acting in the same manner next time? Nothing.

They need to be held responsible for their actions. I am sure that all the wingnuts will stand by this being the party of personal responsibility and all. Right?

I don't respect Jimmy Carter. He is an ignorant redneck. Neither would you if he didn't parrot what you already believe.



Posted by rabblerouser at 2006-02-02 12:46 PM | Reply

And yet you wingnuts complain when Bush is bashed.

By removing both of them, the Capitol police acted in a fair minded and lawful manner. And there is nothing in their actions, as Ms. Sheehan is claiming, that suggests they acted in a partisan manner to intentionally violate her First Amendment rights.

Posted by lokisfur at 2006-02-02 10:48 AM


How many times do we have to go through this. Loki, you conveniently forgot to leave out the part where only Ms. Sheehan was arrested and illegally detained for over 4 hours violating her civil rights. The cop apology is start, but really is a too little too late.

And, as Kanrei suggested in another thread, Amendments trump US Code. Hell, even the Cap Cops admitted the 'house rules' were antiquated as an excuse.

So on top of her 1st Amendment rights being violated, there may also be a legal precedent set about display in the House.

The other woman was not arrested, just asked to leave and maybe rightfully so, but if she is still that pissed, she should join with Sheehan and get the courts to rule on the display.

JIMMYWALLBACK:

Don't pigeon hole people, dude. I am not crazy about Bushbaby either. He ain't too bright.

How many times do we have to go through this. Loki, you conveniently forgot to leave out the part where only Ms. Sheehan was arrested and illegally detained for over 4 hours violating her civil rights.

Posted by FVZ at 2006-02-02 01:59 PM | Reply

That is the #1 rule in the Sean Hannity/Bill O'Lielly/ Rush Limblow school of fact stating.... leave out facts that contradict your arguement or make you look bad.

JIMMYWALLBACK:

Don't pigeon hole people, dude. I am not crazy about Bushbaby either. He ain't too bright.

He ain't too bright.

Posted by Rabblerouser at 2006-02-02 02:06 PM | Reply

As my father would say....

About 100 watts short of a light bulb.

regardless of any of this shit....there should have been NOONE there in a friggin t=shirt.....even the wife of the republican congressman..how disrepectfull.....when you do that it all becomes about you and not the event that you are attending.....there should be noone allowed in dresses that way and then you wont have to worry about any of this......as far as shehan being arrested....comeon.....what the fuck do any of you think that she wanted?

again....no one allowed dresses like this and there is NO controversy.....

As my father would say....

About 100 watts short of a light bulb.

Posted by jimmywallback at 2006-02-02 02:08 PM | Reply

But 5 plus years ahead of what libs offered up.

(((And don't you think the Capitol Cops were on notice re: Sheehan's appearance?)))

Hell Yes. Sheehan made her intentions known....she planned to use the shirt as a political statement..and as one of the leaders of the anti-war left...the cameras would have been cutting to her everytime the President opened his mouth about the war.

She is an extremist who hates the president...there are legitimate places to protest...but the US capitol during the State of the Union is not one them.

One of the responsibilitys that comes from having free speech is to acknowledge the right of others to have free speech to.

The "State of the Union" is about the duty as outlined by the Constitution as well as the right of the President to freely speak to Congress and the Nation about the State of the union....

As for Ms. Young....this is the first time anyone has ever heard of her and she merely wore a pro-war shirt. She was rightfully removed but she is on no way can be considered an out spoken pro-war activist who was looking for a photo op to to "steal the thunder" from Bushs State of the Union.

Frankly, I would imagine had Ms. Sheehan not been arrested she would have been far more upset because she wouldn't have gotten nearly the amount of Press, sympathy or chance for righteous indignation if she hadn't been.

The thing about the Left is that they are always complaining about their rights...yet they refuse to respect the rights of others.

I am sure that a large majority of Americans are saying to themselves about Cindy Sheehan, "Will she get over herself already?"

She is just a media crreation....like Tiny Tim or Paris Hilton. This sympathy crap about her son is just that...crap. He was an adult male who re-enlisted because he supported the war, the mission, and loved the military.

I spent 4 years in the Navy and couldn't wait to get out...so anyone that reenlists definitely has that Oooh-Rahhh LIFER mentality.

Maybe I would take her public display of grief ad-nauseum more seriously if the media paid even a tenth of the attention they pay on Sheehan...to the mothers who lost their sons and daughters yet still support the war and the President.

"""She is an extremist who hates the president"""

No, she is the mother of a soldier who unnecessarily lost his life in Iraq because of George Bush. If being angry because your son's life was wasted for nothing except the creation of an Islamic Republic then I am sure there will be many, many more extremists like Cindy.
It's not really her fault that she figured out that the war was wrong sooner than most.

FVZ_
(((And, as Kanrei suggested in another thread, Amendments trump US Code. Hell, even the Cap Cops admitted the 'house rules' were antiquated as an excuse.

So on top of her 1st Amendment rights being violated, there may also be a legal precedent set about display in the House.)))

Well, I am sure that the courts will sort out whether or not the US Code is unconstitutional....the Capitol Cops did not say the house rules were antiquated he said they were "vague"

Here's the quote from the AP "''The officers made a good faith, but mistaken effort to enforce an old unwritten interpretation of the prohibitions about demonstrating in the Capitol,'' Capitol Police Chief Terrance Gainer said in a statement late Wednesday. ''The policy and procedures were too vague,'' he added. ''The failure to adequately prepare the officers is mine.''

What part of "Good Faith" don't you understand.

Why would you believe the Capitol Police would intentionally violate her First Amendment rights?

The Capitol Police work for the Capitol Building and have no connection to the Bush White House.

Yet, almost immediately, the Left cries conspiracy.

Frankly, common sense tells you that all people have a right in theis country to freely perform their legal obligations, conduct meetings, worship services and events without being disrupted. With the 24/7 all-news all the time media, and cameras everywhere....the juxtaposition of Cindy Sheehans anti-war statement is an aimage that would have the power to disrupt the President message to the country...a message he is legally obligated to give every year.

She can follow Bush around the country and exercise her rights....but what about the Peoples rights to hear undisturbed the President of the US do his constitutional duty and give the "State of the Union"

And frankly, I'll end with this. In almost every other area of life I believe the right to actively voice ones opinion in any way, shape or form (short of violence) should be aggresively protected.

But the Congress, Courts, and State Legislatures should always be neutral ground....because in those houses, it is our elected representatives who are protesting in our stead....and they should be able to freely exercise those rights and authorities given to them by their constituents without being shouted down, demeaned, or disturbed by a radical public that would refuse to recognize the right of the republic to to do it's work.

Danni:

I don't fault Shehan for being angry....I fault the Media who have blown her up into this Leftist anti-war Icon, taken her voice out of context, and refuses to recognize any of the mothers who also lost sons who who disagree with Ms. Sheehan and lessen the unrefutable sanctity of her loss

5 more americans died in Iraq today.

The attacks came as the war-crimes trial of Saddam Hussein was postponed yet again, this time for nearly two weeks after the former Iraqi dictator and his co-defendants continued their boycott of the proceedings.

Bush is the Hallibution Canidate.

(((a soldier who unnecessarily lost his life in Iraq)
Why would you disrespect and demean the life of Casey Sheehan.

He died in the line of duty.

If a cop dies in the line of duty did he "unnecessarily" die.

One would have to argue that there is no need for cops in this society to make that argument.

Whether you disagree with the war or not...the President is the Commander-in Chief, and he gives the orders.

Every man and woman who serves in the mitary takes an oath to uphold the Constituion and follow the directives of the President.

In fact before he died and after he re-enlisted, Casey Sheehan said the following words:

"I, Casey Sheehan, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


He was an American soldier who died in service to his country in the defense and protection of his fellow countrymen.

It was necessary for him to be there. Because the duly elected President of the United States and the duly elected Congress told Casey Sheehan that it was necessary for him to be there.

And whether you like it or not, the people re-elected President Bush, and re-elected the pro-war Congress, and the people reaffirmed their commitment to the war in Iraq.

And by electing his President and this Congress, it is the American People who have said it was necessary for Casey Sheehan.

And of course, most mportantly, it was casey Sheehan himself, who took his oath to his country seriously and knew it was necesarry for him to be here.

It's pretty disgusting that Just because you are against the war, you would choose the right to disrepect the choices that Casey Sheehan made in his life....he didn't just put himself in harms way, "unnecessarily" and the nation that sent him there didn't just flippantly decide to go to war with Iraq so that American could die "Unnecessarily".

George W. Bush was elected President. The Congress that supports this war was elected by the people too. This is direction that the USA has chosen to go...behind a leader they voted for.

I didn't like when Bill Clinton was president either...but I would never have said that a soldier that died in Kosovo died "Unnecessarily" And frankly, no soldier that died in Vietnam died unnecessarily either...even if they were drafted

We all have a role to play in this world...and nobody knows how it is going to turn out. Certainly, the horrendous death count in Vietnam fueled the anti-war movement and led to us pulling out in 1973...you can even argue that it was very "necessary" for all those people to die in Vietnam in order to show how wrong the war was and to create the "all-volunteer" army

But to simply impugn and demean the choices people make in life because you have a different political opinion from them...is pretty outrageous, close minded and smacks of bigotry.

Thanks for another straw man, Loki. Nice to see we can depend on you.

BTW, how many family members have you lost in Iraq?

Loki, yes you are correct in that article it does say 'vague'. However, the 1st Amendment is NOT vague. Sheehan peaceably assembled and when asked to leave, she did not resist, from her accounts and what appears in the pictures, was handled fairly forceably as in any typical arrest and handcuffed. Not to mention, detained for over 4 hours. I never said anything about a conspiracy, but if the US Code is vague and 1st amendment is not, then why err on the side the arrest, especially when the other woman was just 'asked' to leave? You can't honestly tell me there was no personal or political bias happening there.

Plus, the SOTU has turned out to be one big political party rally anyway, with the POTUS in a bully pulpit; especially now in a campaign year. Prior to the 20th Century, the early Presidents did not even SPEAK at the SOTU, but rather submitted documents to be presented in the House that actually spoke of the factual state of the country.

Our forefathers agreed that allowing the president to personally address the nation would be too 'monarch-like' and they were fully against that.

LARRY


Not only didn't Thomas Jefferson say that Dissent Is the Highest Form of Patriotism' BUT he said almost the opposite calling political dissent a "great evil"

Hee's the quote with citations:

"I fear [political difference] is inseparable from the different constitutions of the human mind and that degree of freedom which permits unrestrained expression. Political dissention is doubtless a less evil than the lethargy of despotism, but still it is a great evil, and it would be as worthy the efforts of the patriot as of the philosopher, to exclude its influence, if possible, from social life. The good are rare enough at best. There is no reason to subdivide them by artificial lines. But whether we shall ever be able so far to perfect the principles of society, as that political opinions shall, in its intercourse, be as inoffensive as those of philosophy, mechanics, or any other, may be well doubted." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Pinckney, 1797. ME 9:389

Nicely stated Lokisfur. But one could say the anti-war movement extended the war in Vietnam. Some have documented the NV were ready to surrender after Tet Offensive.

Jeez Loki, I was going to give you some credibility for your earlier statements, but I'm sorry... I guess we have to spell it out for you. OUT OF CONTEXT, "great evil" would appear to be a very very bad evil, like 'grave danger'.

IN CONTEXT, as in "Political dissention is doubtless a less evil than the lethargy of despotism, but still it is a great evil" it means a very necessary evil.

Lethargy is weakness characterized by a lack of vitality or energy

Despotism is government by a singular authority, either a single person or tightly knit group, which rules with absolute power. The word implies tyrannical rule; it suggests a form of government which exercises exacting and near-absolute control over all of its citizens.

So basically, he said that 'dissention' is LESS EVIL than the weakness of allowing a singular authority with absolute power. In his case, political dissention is a NECESSARY if not MANDATORY PATRIOTIC DUTY.

FVZ

(((and when asked to leave, she did not resist,)))


Not too split hairs but, I understand that she refused to respond to the Capitol Police when they told her she had to leave. A refusal to respond to a police order is active resistance....

here's the quote from the AP

"Sgt. Kimberly Schneider in the public information office of the Capitol Police said that Sheehan was warned that that she could not wear such a display "but did not respond."

But you are gonna hear what you want to hear and see what you want to see...frankly to compare the most recognizable anti-war activist in the country who has a history of disruptive protests with Ms. Young who is not identified with any movement and just wore the pro-war shirt...is refusing to see the truth or reality of the situation.

Given the dignified nature of the State of the union event...it goes without saying that the Capitol Police would be watching Ms. Sheehan closely so as to prevent any disruption....

The courts will sort out the particulars of the 1st amendment case but it is no way clear cut, The right to free speech does give you the right to infringe on the rights of other indiscrimanetly and the courts will have to weigh the right of Sheehan to wear that T-shirt with the Presindent to fulfill his constitutional duty to give the State of the Union with out interference.

Of course you have made up your mind already, because true to form, the Dems and Liberals believe that there is this all knowing, all powerful conspiracy to continually undermine them and do them in....if the Dems spent as much time trying to develop a winning platform as they do complaining about the vast right wing conspiracy against them...they might have gotten the Congress back already.

FVZ

(((and when asked to leave, she did not resist,)))


Not too split hairs but, I understand that she refused to respond to the Capitol Police when they told her she had to leave. A refusal to respond to a police order is active resistance....

here's the quote from the AP

"Sgt. Kimberly Schneider in the public information office of the Capitol Police said that Sheehan was warned that that she could not wear such a display "but did not respond."

But you are gonna hear what you want to hear and see what you want to see...frankly to compare the most recognizable anti-war activist in the country who has a history of disruptive protests with Ms. Young who is not identified with any movement and just wore the pro-war shirt...is refusing to see the truth or reality of the situation.

Given the dignified nature of the State of the union event...it goes without saying that the Capitol Police would be watching Ms. Sheehan closely so as to prevent any disruption....

The courts will sort out the particulars of the 1st amendment case but it is no way clear cut, The right to free speech does give you the right to infringe on the rights of other indiscrimanetly and the courts will have to weigh the right of Sheehan to wear that T-shirt with the Presindent to fulfill his constitutional duty to give the State of the Union with out interference.

Of course you have made up your mind already, because true to form, the Dems and Liberals believe that there is this all knowing, all powerful conspiracy to continually undermine them and do them in....if the Dems spent as much time trying to develop a winning platform as they do complaining about the vast right wing conspiracy against them...they might have gotten the Congress back already.

Posted by lokisfur at 2006-02-02 05:14 PM | Reply

War on christmas, war on christianity, war on babies, surely that was all liberal wet dreams as well?

Sorry pal, that sorta conspiracy bullshit swings both ways equally. Its also note worthy to point out that republicans often claim they were elected by the people due to the liberal conspiracy......

Given all the corruption, scandal, single party control over the government, the right wing conspiracy seems far more plausible.

Loki,

I didn't think it needed to be said that America likes sending troops off to die for what amounts to shits and giggles.

Obviously getting troops killed for the sake of having troops killed is what no one wanted.

When people say troops are dying unncessarily, its not because they think the soldiers themselves made shitty choices. Its because for better or for worse the elected leadership made a choice, a potentially wrong choice. People dying for mistakes is what it amounts to. That could easily be debated as neccessary vs unneccessary. The commitment a soldier makes has no determination in the neccessity of the job they do. It only defines they're willingness to do the job regardless of the neccessities.

Of course you have made up your mind already, because true to form, the Dems and Liberals believe that there is this all knowing, all powerful conspiracy to continually undermine them and do them in....if the Dems spent as much time trying to develop a winning platform as they do complaining about the vast right wing conspiracy against them...they might have gotten the Congress back already.

Huh? What you don't get is the Dems are not complaining about this administration being out to get them. The are complaining about this administration out to get the rights and liberties of all Americans including the the Republicans.

Lokis,

Because you are willing to give up some of your liberties and rights for your party does not mean I am willing to give up mine.

The constitution is there so even if you have a majority rule these rights cannot be encroached upon or taken. To bad but you will have to live with this.

Money,

Yes, but the Republicans fear of terrorism pre empts the fear of living in a police state with no freedom.

I like her because she is obviously a dolt, and that is the image she projects. If she naged her son one tenth as much as she is naging the government maby he would not have joined. On the other hand maby that why he joined in the first place, to get away from her.

Cry more, noob. You havent lost any family in Iranq. When you have, come back and give an opinion.

FVZ-

That is the most convolted "Clintonian" reasoning I have ever seen.....you actually took a stab at using a real Thomas Jefferson Quote in order to prove to your satisfaction that its make the substance of the quote "Dissent Is the Highest Form of Patriotism" something Jefferson would believe if not say.

Only a Democrat could "spin" like that.

I will agree that Jefferosn was describing political dissension as not simply a "great Evil" but as a "Great" and necessary "evil" that must be endured because the alternative "evils" are so much greater.

But he then argues, contrary to your take, that just because it is a necessary evil does not mean that it isn't "as worthy the efforts of the patriot as of the philosopher, to exclude its influence, if possible, from social life."

Meaning that it is in the best interest of both "the patriot (someone who passionately loves and is devoted to his country) and "the philosopher" (as Jefferson would have understood it, a wise person who is calm and rational) to try and avoid political dissent and seek common ground.

Coomon sense tells Jefferson that while a divided citizenry that is nevertheless committed to always seeking unity and understanding might be a noble goal, it could probally not be achieved. he states, "But whether we shall ever be able so far to perfect the principles of society, as that political opinions shall, in its intercourse, be as inoffensive as those of philosophy, mechanics, or any other, may be well doubted."


So to sum it up. What Jefferson is substantively saying is that "Finding Common Ground With Those In Disagreement With You Is the Highest Form of Patriotism"

Ok, Loki, I take it back being wrong about the 'antiquated' statement. After re-reading the article, in the paragraph above the where is says 'vague' law, it says: "The officers made a good faith but mistaken effort to enforce an old unwritten interpretation of the prohibitions about demonstrating in the Capitol," Capitol Police Chief Terrance Gainer said in a statement late Wednesday.

So now we go from 'vague' law to 'old unwritten interpretation'. Not even a law according to the chief. He then goes on to say that "Neither guests should have been confronted about their t-shirts." I am in agreement with the Chief.

You mean to tell me that Sheehan's t-shirt up there in the balcony of the House chamber with ALL those people there was going to disrupt the President in his bully pulpit? Hmmm, maybe a dolt like GWB would be distracted... he should be.

Loki, give it up.. they were beggin for a reason to snatch her out of there.. they didn't want her to get on national TV with her 2245 dead t-shirt and be possible ruin the campaign moment by being interviewed after the SOTU. No conspiracy, just typical dirty rethug politics.

Backfired though didn't it.

Only a Democrat could "spin" like that.

So to sum it up. What Jefferson is substantively saying is that "Finding Common Ground With Those In Disagreement With You Is the Highest Form of Patriotism"

Posted by lokisfur at 2006-02-02 05:49 PM


Loki, you keep associating me with a Democrat. I assure you, I do not hold their card as some kind of default. And I wasn't spinning anything, merely explaining in simple terms what was said based on Wikipedia definitions of the words.

That said, I certainly condone the statement, "Finding Common Ground With Those In Disagreement With You Is the Highest Form of Patriotism", but only so far that that there is not in effect one singular power that controls all of the citizens. You see, the forefathers HATED the King and most monarchies, more than ANYTHING else, and wrote up the Constitution in such a way that they should always be avoided. But should the Constitution somehow fail us and allow for singular rule, then dissent RISES to the highest FORM, and in fact becomes our Patriotic duty.

Therefore, if the POTUS ingores the Contitutional Law, and controls the Legislative and Judicial branches of the gov't, he then has absolute power over it's citizens, and OUR PATRIOTIC duty is to dissent, even to fight.

Let us hope we can seek and find 'common ground' before it comes to that.

KHAWK:

(((Its because for better or for worse the elected leadership made a choice, a potentially wrong choice.)))

I agree with you that elected governments can make what turn out to be wrong choices...from an outsiders POV the palestinians did just that by electing HAMAS.

Yet no matter how wrong the choice by an elected government turns out to be ...it in no way changes the necessity and relevance of soldiers like Casey Sheehan who pledged his life in service to this country.

Nationalism is the driving force behind social cohesion in every Nation in the world. Who would care about the Olympics if it wasn't.

In fact, Nationalism is probally less relevant in America than most other nations because of the multi-cultural structure of our US society

Given that, a united population that is willing to die for their country and defend their society is probally the most powerful transforming force in the world.

Nationalism allowed Hitler to almost take over the world.

And our Nationalism allowed the US to fight a world war on two oceans and beat both Hitler and the Nationalism of Japan.

In fact, the nationalism of Japan was such a threat to us...that rather than invade the mainland of Japan and face millions of civilians willing to die for their country, the US decided to avoid the confrontation and drop the A-Bomb.

Given this visceral power of nationalism, it is really demeaning to say that anyone who dies for their country did so "unnecessarily". The human need for community makes such deaths necessaary and important.

In fact, it is the great tragedy of the cynic who can't find anything worth dying for.

And most of the cynics in the US are Democrats.

(((You mean to tell me that Sheehan's t-shirt up there in the balcony of the House chamber with ALL those people there was going to disrupt the President in his bully pulpit? Hmmm, maybe a dolt like GWB would be distracted... he should be.)))

Come on don't be so naive...the cameras would be trained on her for every reaction shot...and of course that would diminish the President.

Sheehan can't be faulted for trying....but neither can the capitol police be faulted for not allowing her that kind of audience during a constitutionally mandated event conducted by the President.

Given that, a united population that is willing to die for their country and defend their society is probally the most powerful transforming force in the world.

Nationalism allowed Hitler to almost take over the world,/i>

Yes, but Hitler's nationalism was despicably founded by scapegoating all of Germany's problems on certain groups of people.

And speaking of common ground, the only force that has united us all as Americans is our disgust over terrorism. But the bush Admin has shamefully used the FEAR of TERROR over and over again not as a uniting tool, but as a controlling tool. Even the common ground we all shared in 2001 after 9/11 is GONE, because the GOP took the stance that either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists... which works fine on foreign countries, BUT NOT against his OWN CITIZENS. And that is where again, we have lost common ground... we are 'with you' so long as you do not break the law. We shall not give up our liberties in order to have the illusion of some security.

Sheehan can't be faulted for trying....but neither can the capitol police be faulted for not allowing her that kind of audience during a constitutionally mandated event conducted by the President.

Posted by lokisfur at 2006-02-02 06:18 PM


But she got it though. Better for her even, wouldn't you say? Nearly 1000 posts on the topic on the DR alone, and nationwide coverage... more than the GOP talking points of the SOTU.

FVZ:

Dissent for Dissents sake is not a patriotic duty. Neither is dissent just because you don't like the messenger.

Neither is dissent in place of any alternative plan.

Neither is dissent when to do so would cause much greater harm to the nation then the reaason you are dissenting.

In WW2 there were plenty of protesters to the war but they didn't protest and try to stop the "rationing" of say shortening because it was being used for machine guns.

Likewise, one can protest the without without actively supporting the efforts of people who disclose top secret information to our enemy.

You know what is patriotic? Voting. voting is far more patriotic then dissent.


During the first Clinton presidency it would be impossible to find a democrat that thought ""Dissent Is the Highest Form of Patriotism"

But guess what, you couldn't find a republican who believed that then also.

Why?

Because voting is a much higher form of patriotism.

And people will vote for what they believe in, and where they want this country to go.

And when the people you vote for get elected that becomes the political power necessary to fulfill the vision of those people who vote for you. And when it is the President, that vision becomes the natins vision like it or not.

And man did I have to suck it up for 8 horrible years on that ethics-challenged lying moron egomaniac Clinton

The Democrats are letting themselves be defined by their dissent instead of puttng together a real vision and platform for America that those Americans who might be open to change, can get behind and vote for

""I am sure that a large majority of Americans are saying to themselves about Cindy Sheehan, "Will she get over herself already?"""

I don't know about a large majority of Americans and you don't either but I am sure that the Bush administration is saying it. Cindy Sheehan is effective if not necessarily endorsed by everyone opposed to the war. She has cost the president many percentage points in public opinion and this latest little episode will only add to the attention focused on her, make more people hear her message and cost Dubya more percentage points. The Republicans will move on because they won't really be able to spin this the way they want. It is just too mean spirited to attack a grieving mother the way they attacked John Kerry, or Mr. Murtha. They want to, but to do so will cost them more than they will gain and Carl Rove is smart enough to know it. What do you want to bet that whoever invited her to the State of the Union is now on an enemyies list somewhere in the White House. I bet the NSA listens to every call she makes just to be sure she isn't consulting Osama on her next move.
The idiots in charge of this fiasco have egg on their faces and Cindy...once again...succeeded in getting her point accross.
Chalk one more up for Cindy.

Danni:

(((Cindy...once again...succeeded in getting her point across)))

If by getting her point across you mean preaching to the choir...then yes she got her point across.

And if by getting her point across you mean coming off like a complete wacko and making the anti-war movement look like it is run by nutjobs...then yes she got her point across.

If if by getting her point across, you mean making the major media look like extreme liberal sycophants, then yes she got her point across.


But if you mean by getting her point across, that people actually believe she has had her rights violated, that Bush is far worse terrorist then Bin-Laden, and that the entire Iraq war was predicated on a lie to get oil and get Halliburton big contracts, then no....I don't think she has been effective in getting that point across.

C'mon Loki, you mean to tell me the 8 years during Clinton weren't prosperous ones for the country? And not personally prosperous for you? They were for me. I'm not jacking up Clinton like he was some saviour like you hear around here... I wasn't even very 'poltical' back then, didn't need to be... because times were good. Clinton never appeared like he was trying to take over the world. The only dissention heard was that of tubby old Rush Limbaugh, who actually USED to be funny, and there was no blogs invented yet. Maybe the country would be better off without all this media. I thought it was kewl Clinton could play the sax... and the blowjob thing was a throwback to Kennedy and the rat-pack days.

In steps Bush, to hear him talk was embarrasing. To hear about his past was embarrassing. And all of the sudden the radical right fundamentalism comes to the forefront, 9/11, Afganistan and then we are fighting another war against the same country his daddy already claimed victory over in the early 90s all for OIL FUTURES and zero WMD. The stock market and economy go to shit, and we have unqualified cronies in FEMA and 'homeland Security' with the rediculous color terror alert system. And now, spying on it's own citizens and not obtaining the required FISA warrants, and UNPATRIOTIC dolts saying they would give up their personal freedoms to be protected from the evil towelhead, the new nationalistic scapegoat.

It's very insulting to anyone of any intelligence level. Dissention from that? You betcha... and only a handful of votes who change it from a 'dissenting' view to a majority view.

FVZ:


Do you know how crazy that Michael Moore rant sounds...I guess you don't and you actualy believe all that stuff about oil futures, and Bush lying about zero WMD. blah blah blah.

Its as crazy as all those Clinton haters who believed that Clinton had something like 89 people killed, including Vince Foster, that were political threats.

It is nuts dude. The difference is that the GOP knew that the people spouting and believing the insane anti-Clinton paranoia were actually insane...and those views and claims were certainly not repeated in public by the leadership of the Republican party.

Not so the Democrats. They take the wildest claims against the President as truth and never let go....the charges are repeated over and over by the party leaders

But America stopped listening....bush didn't lie, he was duped by the intelligence just like everyone else, and the whole Halliburton, blood for il stuff just doesn't ring true....Bush isn't a sleaze like Clinton. He can't be the dumbest person in the world one day...and then whenever it is some elaborate scheme to get money for his family and friends...he all of a sudden is a mastermind.

And Bush isn't dumb. Judging him by the way he speaks is frankly not very intelligent. But you dems did thatto Reagan too...did you ever read the leeters reagan wrote..brilliant eloquent, well reasoned...he was no dummy.

And neither is Bush. My Dad always said, when I called some major league ballpalyer a bum, that "You have to be a damn good ballpalyer to be a bum in the major leagues."

Nobody who becomes President is a dummy

And the dems by believing this fallacy and worse believing that most of America would believe it too...really shot themselves in the foot.

If anything Bush has continuously outsmarted and outcampaigned the dems at just about every turn.

FVZ:


Do you know how crazy that Michael Moore rant sounds...I guess you don't and you actualy believe all that stuff about oil futures, and Bush lying about zero WMD. blah blah blah.

Its as crazy as all those Clinton haters who believed that Clinton had something like 89 people killed, including Vince Foster, that were political threats.

It is nuts dude. The difference is that the GOP knew that the people spouting and believing the insane anti-Clinton paranoia were actually insane...and those views and claims were certainly not repeated in public by the leadership of the Republican party.

Not so the Democrats. They take the wildest claims against the President as truth and never let go....the charges are repeated over and over by the party leaders

But America stopped listening....bush didn't lie, he was duped by the intelligence just like everyone else, and the whole Halliburton, blood for il stuff just doesn't ring true....Bush isn't a sleaze like Clinton. He can't be the dumbest person in the world one day...and then whenever it is some elaborate scheme to get money for his family and friends...he all of a sudden is a mastermind.

And Bush isn't dumb. Judging him by the way he speaks is frankly not very intelligent. But you dems did thatto Reagan too...did you ever read the leeters reagan wrote..brilliant eloquent, well reasoned...he was no dummy.

And neither is Bush. My Dad always said, when I called some major league ballpalyer a bum, that "You have to be a damn good ballpalyer to be a bum in the major leagues."

Nobody who becomes President is a dummy

And the dems by believing this fallacy and worse believing that most of America would believe it too...really shot themselves in the foot.

If anything Bush has continuously outsmarted and outcampaigned the dems at just about every turn.

Bushling and your "god' Ronnie Raygun had the combined I.Q. of gnat feces.

At least Ronnie could "act" Presidential.

By the way, what elaborate "scheme" has your hero, The Bushling actually come up by himself to make money for family and friends?

By the way, No one "becomes" President.

Most are actually elected.

itsme


I stand corrected, Nobody who gets elected President is a dummy

Yeah. And Halliburton isn't making boatloads of cash off of this war.

By the way, what's our original reason for the invasion?

I forgot.

Do you know how crazy that Michael Moore rant sounds...

Guess so CRAZY you had to post it twice! And there you go associating me with Michael Moore rants. And you didn't answer my questions about whether or not you were prosperous during the CLinton era. Yeah you had to eat crow becuase your boy's daddy lost, but I'm sure you had the most propserous times of your life like most people did. And if you didn't, you really missed the boat. Tell me you are not struggling now, and happy with the raises you get at work; and everything else getting more expensive, gas prices outta control while Exxon and Halliburton report record profits right in your face. All from your hard earned dollars which you have make stretch very hard since Clinton left.

And speaking of Daddy, your boy was propped up by his Daddy, and a very elite group of advisors. And they figured out back in TX how to get the ex-drunk and drug user, draft dodger and C college student, busted business man some religion. Run on the Born again platform... nosir no blowjobs here.

And yes the way he talks is embarrasing... he is the President of the United States of America. He can sorta read a rehearsed speech, but he cannot debate or go live worth shit. It's pathetic and the rest of the world looks at us for leadership, and part of being leader is being a orator. Like any leadership job out there, GOOD WRITTEN AND ORAL COMMUNICATION SKILLS REQUIRED. Double for the POTUS. He has to be able to persuade and influence. Jocks can afford not to have to communicate, heck half of baseball doesnt even speak english, thats why they have agents. He, however, cannot.

So don't talk to me about trying to gain common ground. You haven't lifted a finger to try find any. This is a liberal site and if you are trying to garner respect and influence the hearts and minds of the people here you better get off your self-righteous condescending high horse and revise your ridiculous apologists comments.

ITS-EWE -- What incisive analytic abilities you have.

H

RIGHTNUT: She showed her lack of class when she walked in the room with her anti-American slogans , she's a fool , just another assclown .

So, it's now anti-American to protest a war? If lack of class were a reason to be arrested, you should have been locked up long ago. Dumb ass!!

Baa baa baa go the sheeple,
slurp slurp slurp go the Republifundies.
Squeak squeak squeak go the Republemmings,
oink oink oink go the 'fiscal conservatives'.

FVZ:

(((you better get off your self-righteous condescending high horse and revise your ridiculous apologists comments.)))

and if I don't?

Are you gonna try an violate my first amendment rights?

Or do you just want to kick my ass because I don't agree with you?

Remember Thomas Jefferson, who edited his own version of the Bible with all the loony bullshit taken out... You have to love the man.

But its even more ironic that the neo-con bible thumping twits consider him their knight in shining armor. When it was more likely that he would have cut all their fucking heads off...

Anyway, TJ is the greatest man in the history of American Politics.

It's too bad that you Dems are so full of such an irrational hate that you are incapable of focusing on reality long enough to sound rational....and a stumbling, bumbling texan with down to earth values and commons sense, will beat an eloquent bitter psychopath in an election every time.

Posted by lokisfur at 2006-02-02 10:02 PM

Lok, they can't get over this!! this is what really pisses them off although they won't admit it. they want the upper east side ultra liberal to actually be accepted by the rest of america and they are so hurt by the fact that those guys/gals aren't welcome.

ProAmerica -

The "loony Bullshit" you speak of is the supernatural spiritual underpinnings of the entire Christian faith.

I'm a Christian....a Catholic who had a transforming and supernatural experience with Jesus...you can believe me or not it doesn't matter...it is what it is.

Obviously, I belive in the spiritual reality of faith in God....it would never occur to me to call those that did not believe in God or believed differently from me as believers in "loony bullshit"

Why is spiritual faith such a threat to those that don't believe that they have to resort to dismissive namecalling?

Jefferson was one of our gretest Presidents who definitely was a child of the age of Reason....but he most certainly believed in "Our Creator" and never shied away from his belief in God if not a particular re3ligious dogma.

The Jefferson Bible was a briiliant composition that separated the ethical Jesus from the supernatural Jesus....it neither takes away from his love of Jesus nor attempts to prove that Jesus was just a man and not God.

As for the "neo-con bible thumping twits" love of Jefferson....that is because Jefferson's "classical liberalism" was much closer to the neo-con/republican philosophy of today.

What we today call Liberals are really socialists wrapped up in the trappings of Democracy.

Sheehan would show the most class in this whole situation if she now just says she accepts their apology and let's it go at that. No lawsuits -- just say okay and let it be.


Posted by califchris at 2006-02-01 10:12 PM | Reply


Unfortunately CA Chris, she won't do this.

Cindy is abused by folks and she is in over her poor --mourning --grieving --head.

Murphy

Loki, I thought I was having a conversation with a real person, but after re-reading your posts, all I see is a Republican spin machine talking puppet. If you are trying to reach common ground with anyone here, which I now highly doubt, you have seriously derailed your effort. You are only here to BAIT not to DEBATE because obviously you are STILL bitter over your loss to Clinton. And trust me, you are not even a master baiter. Holding a grudge is not good for your health dude, let it go. And it'll just get worse for because your party is nothing but a bunch of common crooks... Abramoff (jailed), Delay (idicted) Libby (indicted) whole slew of sleazy rethugs who took money from Abramoff under investigation, Karl Rove under investigation... the POTUS and AG under investigation for spying on their own citizens (can't wait for Feb 6th hearings).

Daddy only got beat by Clinton, at least he didn't get impeached and thrown in jail along with the rest of the party. Must be a real source of angst for you, eh Loki?

Bottom line is you are an apologist for all this criminal activity, so what does that say for you? You fit so perfectly into the well-documented Republican spin machine. All of your posts can be summed up by the following.

Republican Spin tactic 34A regarding lies:

1st- repeat the lie
2nd- qualify your lie with new words
3rd- admit the lie briefly, then spend rest of your time attacking those who exposed your lie
4th- point fingers and say they did it too.

Before we go to far with this, let's step into our time machine and rewind the clock...

During the Impeachment hearings of Bill Clinton, David Delp, a guest of Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.), showed up wearing an anti-Clinton tshirt. He was removed by authorities and banned from the Capitol for the rest of the day.

So, please, let's keep this in perspective. I am as passionate as anyone about my beliefs. I have an "Anyone but Hillary 2008" bumper sticker on my car and I proudly display my "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy" membership card. Sometimes people who don't agree with me respond passionately to my admittedly inflammatory display of my politcal views. The fact is that if you are going to wear a tshirt in opposition, in a venue where you KNOW it will get attention, you have to face the consequences, just as I do when somebody flips me off because of my bumper sticker. We don't do things like this because we want to remain anonymous, now do we?

FVZ: This post is in 2 parts

This is part I

This is a "no spin zone". I try to deal with the facts and not just namecalling and speculation. that you would say "Your party is nothing but a bunch of common crooks" has no basis in fact. There might be specific people in the GOP who are "crooks" but why would you say that about the entire party...as if part of the GOP platform is to be crooks.

When I talk about Dems as a whole...I am talking about the Platform, the policy, the actions, and the rhetoric given by the party leaders.

I try to keep it on point and not get too personal...or make outlandish charges. If I call someone a crook...I'll follow up with the facts that point to them being a crook. What I find from most democrats is when they call someon a "crook" or a "liar" they back the charges up with speculation, facts not in evidence, or just things they happen to think they know are true becuase "that's the way Republicans are"

For example, saying that Bush snorted cocaine has never been proven to be true. Kitty Kelley cited Bush's "former" sister-in-law Sharon as the source. But Sharon denied she ever said it.

Yet you repeat the charge as if it is the truth...how do you know? And if you don't know, why would you repeat something that might not be true?

It makes no sense.

ALSO, I'm not bitter about Clinton at all. Its politics that's all. I thought he was a terrible President. But I thought Bush1 was also.

I mean I voted for Perot because I hated BushI primarily for putting the UN before American interests, pulling out of Iraq, and dooming the Kurds.

I am certainly no apologist for Republicans or the Bush Administration. I just calls it like I see it. For the most part, I agree with the Bush foreign policy, the war in Iraq and afghanistan, The unequivoacable support oif Israel, the patriot act and homeland security, the direction the Supreme Court is going, as well as his support in defense of traditional marriage...and like Bush I support "civil unions" instead. I also support School vouchers.

But I'll tell you where I do have "common ground" with the Democrats:

1) I think the ground war in Iraq after Saddam could have been handled a lot better, and had a lot better planning behind it.

2) I think that Bush's expansion of the role of the Federal Government is antithetical to the core philosophy of the Republican party.

3) The whole medicare drug plan program is a bust.

4) I think that Bush's refusal to limit the "pork" in Republican spending has hurt our party in the long term. I didn't become a republican just so the party can mimmick the pork ridden Democrats of the 70's and 80's.

5) I believe that we should do a lot more in the Sudan ...since the US called it a "genocide" we have been trying to fix the problem through the UN through diplomatic means....I think we know from experience that the UN dopesn't work...we need to end the genocide now...we don't need another Rwanda on our hands.

6) I am pro-choice based on the idea that life begins at viability.

7) I think Bush is behind the curve on China...we have to have tougher trade agreements.

8) I think that Bush "pussied out" on Social Security which is problem that is not going to go away and just going to get worse. If he needs to work with the Dems to get necessary changes made then he needs to work with the Dems on it.

9) While I am for "school vouchers" I am against the larger "no child Left Behind" program which creates too much federal oversight into the state and local school districts.

FVZ: This post is in 2 parts

This is part II

As for not being open to a real debate...that is not true...I love to debate the issues and by posting on a liberal website I am always given the opportunity to look at things differently...however I will not be drawn into a "non-debate" over "quackery".

Once someone starts talking about Bush being a "draft dodger" and a "drug addict" and "in the pocket of OPEC" I shut down...I have looked at all that stuff and it is either unproen, not true, based on wild speculation adn assumption, etc. In short you have to suspend your disbelief to believe most of the extreme stuff about Bush coming from the left in the same way that one had to disregard similar baseless charges about Clinton from the Right.

Both Clinton and Bush are great politicians who appealed to a wide spectrum of Americans...they are not evil, or Hitlers, or mass-murderes. They are human beings, Americans, imperfect just like the rest of us. To attribute only the sinister and incompetent to either of them and "sling as much mud as possible" reveals more about the the mudslinger then their targets.

So I try to stick to the politics, the actions, the man, and common sense.

So you ask about a a few specific current issues in the news...I guess you want my take on them....

Abramoff (jailed): He admitted his guilt. I think that lobbyists in general are a part of Washington politics that is not going away, nor should they....I think those that get caught over this should be punished. but I don't see how this plays out as only a republican scandal. it is a bi-partisan washington scandal.

Delay (idicted): Again, politics as usual. The Dems got rid of a very effective majority leader...whether the charges stick remains to be seen...if they do its a big + for the texas democrats.

Libby (indicted): I think it is a weak case, but if he gets convicted that will definitely taint the white house.

Karl Rove under investigation: I could be wrong, but I don't think he really is anymore. He seemed to be cleared on the Plame thing.

POTUS and AG under investigation for spying on their own citizens: Considering the calls that were tapped were international calls, and FISA created i 1978 only specifically deals with domestic analog wired calls....I don't see this going anywhere unless it can be proved that POTUS did not limit these warrentless wiretaps to "our enemy" and instead had the intelligence community go after his own political enemies and organizations (a la Nixon).

If that turns out to be true, I swear that I will be the first person in line calling for his impeachment.

BTW: I don't appreciate you calling me or my party liars...a lie is when someone intentionally, and knowingly tells someone something they know to be untrue with the intent to decieve.

For example, When Bill Clinton told the Nation that he did not have "sexual relations with that women" knowing that he did have ...that was a lie.

When George W. Bush told the nation that one of the reasons we went into Iraq was over WMD's, he was making that statement based on intelligence information that the US, UK, UN, Russian and Israel had about the Saddam's WMD programs. After we invaded, that intelligence has so far proved to be false and not massive WMD stores have been found...and evidence of the WMD programs is far less then expected.

By acting on incorrect information, Bush made a mistake....but he did not "Lie".

For him to have "lied", Bush would have had prior knowledge that Saddam did not have WMD's or WMD programs....and there is nothing that has come out to substantiate that.

FVZ: This post is in 2 parts

This is part II

As for not being open to a real debate...that is not true...I love to debate the issues and by posting on a liberal website I am always given the opportunity to look at things differently...however I will not be drawn into a "non-debate" over "quackery".

Once someone starts talking about Bush being a "draft dodger" and a "drug addict" and "in the pocket of OPEC" I shut down...I have looked at all that stuff and it is either unproen, not true, based on wild speculation adn assumption, etc. In short you have to suspend your disbelief to believe most of the extreme stuff about Bush coming from the left in the same way that one had to disregard similar baseless charges about Clinton from the Right.

Both Clinton and Bush are great politicians who appealed to a wide spectrum of Americans...they are not evil, or Hitlers, or mass-murderes. They are human beings, Americans, imperfect just like the rest of us. To attribute only the sinister and incompetent to either of them and "sling as much mud as possible" reveals more about the the mudslinger then their targets.

So I try to stick to the politics, the actions, the man, and common sense.

So you ask about a a few specific current issues in the news...I guess you want my take on them....

Abramoff (jailed): He admitted his guilt. I think that lobbyists in general are a part of Washington politics that is not going away, nor should they....I think those that get caught over this should be punished. but I don't see how this plays out as only a republican scandal. it is a bi-partisan washington scandal.

Delay (idicted): Again, politics as usual. The Dems got rid of a very effective majority leader...whether the charges stick remains to be seen...if they do its a big + for the texas democrats.

Libby (indicted): I think it is a weak case, but if he gets convicted that will definitely taint the white house.

Karl Rove under investigation: I could be wrong, but I don't think he really is anymore. He seemed to be cleared on the Plame thing.

POTUS and AG under investigation for spying on their own citizens: Considering the calls that were tapped were international calls, and FISA created i 1978 only specifically deals with domestic analog wired calls....I don't see this going anywhere unless it can be proved that POTUS did not limit these warrentless wiretaps to "our enemy" and instead had the intelligence community go after his own political enemies and organizations (a la Nixon).

If that turns out to be true, I swear that I will be the first person in line calling for his impeachment.

BTW: I don't appreciate you calling me or my party liars...a lie is when someone intentionally, and knowingly tells someone something they know to be untrue with the intent to decieve.

For example, When Bill Clinton told the Nation that he did not have "sexual relations with that women" knowing that he did have ...that was a lie.

When George W. Bush told the nation that one of the reasons we went into Iraq was over WMD's, he was making that statement based on intelligence information that the US, UK, UN, Russian and Israel had about the Saddam's WMD programs. After we invaded, that intelligence has so far proved to be false and not massive WMD stores have been found...and evidence of the WMD programs is far less then expected.

By acting on incorrect information, Bush made a mistake....but he did not "Lie".

For him to have "lied", Bush would have had prior knowledge that Saddam did not have WMD's or WMD programs....and there is nothing that has come out to substantiate that.

During the Impeachment hearings of Bill Clinton, David Delp, a guest of Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.), showed up wearing an anti-Clinton tshirt. He was removed by authorities and banned from the Capitol for the rest of the day.

Posted by jimmyg9912 at 2006-02-03 10:39 AM

Jimmy, sorry I missed your post, there is this 4 part novel in the way...

Yes, that is true, but he was not arrested nor illegally detained. Thats's a biggie in itself.

AND, perhaps because of the content of his shirt, oh what did it say, "Clinton doesn't inhale, he sucks!, maybe he should have been. A direct and personal insult on the standing POTUS

Cindy's shirt was a (then) true statement about war dead, asking how many more. If she was wearing a something tasteless like "Condi Licks Bush" then I doubt very many people would have sympathy for her.