I predicted this for Iraq. The fact the common bobble headed sheeple American thinks democracy is a means instead of an end helps to illustrate the deplorable state of our government-run education system.

Franklin said it best - Democracy is two wolfs and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. [paraphrasing, maybe]

Democracy can't fix anything, but it is a good system if and ONLY if you have a moral people to begin with.

Let's see.....the middle east is populated primarily by Muslims who consider non-Muslims to be infidel. So....if we invade and insist on democracy then who will be elected????
Surprise....Muslims who consider non-Muslims to be infidel. Who would have thought?

Well Danni-what else would you expect from dumbya? Or even the asswipes who voted for him?
They're Islamic Countries-could anyone even wonder why they didn't elect Baptists-or Presbyterians?
Maybe they were expecting an Orthodox Jew?
Or Jerry Falwell, Maybe even Batty Pukkkannon, Bat Robert's son?

Ummm, at the current time it appears so.

Now the question is -- Does Democracy always fit the needs of every country at every time?

H

Horace-clearly not. China, I'm looking in your direction.

"""Democracy can't fix anything, but it is a good system if and ONLY if you have a moral people to begin with."""

Actually, democracy can only be a viable system where people have respect for the law. If their enemy is elected they still have to obey the law (as us libs do right now). In the middle east secular law has never really been respected because religious law is more important to the people, therefore, democracy can't really work. If a member of the opposing religious group wins an election the population of the other religion does not accept their authority. In the US and most of the western world we learned to put our religious differences aside and to put the law above all of them. Until the Muslim world does that, and it won't be any time soon, democracy will just be a method of choosing which official will be assasinated next.

You don't understand, islamists are empowering islamists.

If we wanted our kind of democracy we would have been supporting and helping them, not through war but through economics, and political peace.

Everytime Israel kills we back Israel to the teeth, well, the only ones backing the Islamists are the extreme Islamists and one wonders why the elected Islamists.

Wonders never end.

If we started treating this part of the world like we did the countries during the cold war maybe they might elect different group.

""If we started treating this part of the world like we did the countries during the cold war maybe they might elect different group.""

So we should stop buying oil from them...like we did to the countries who were aligned with the USSR????
What if we just did business with them regardless of their form of government and let them figure out for themselve what form of government they want. You know...the old free markets idea that Republicans are so sold on. We should pay whatever price the nations with oil can get for their oil and we should stay the hell out of all of their politics. Let competition between oil producers set the price...oh...but that would require that we reduce the amount we need....sort of makes those Ford Expeditions seem quite unpatriotic in hind sight. But...if you put enough "We support the troops" stickers on them you wouldn't notice.

Danni,

No, you went the wrong direction. We pushed business and economic enterprizes to the countries most likely would turn communist.

We helped those societies gain in trade and production by helping those countries employ their people which gave them a better living which made them think toward a more democratic society.

We did the same with our own country, we including the corporations made most of their decisions based upon raising or watching out for the working man because with high disparity of economic class opens the way for communism.

I'm surprised anybody is upset about this. Fatah was Yasser's group right? And we all know Yasser was the devil right?
So this has to be an improvement, right?

Money, like we do in regards to Cuba????
Do you really believe that China, though it is allowing some capitalism in its mix of economic strategy, is not still a "communist" state, by which I mean a state controlled economy? We are encouraging China and all controlled economies by spending billions in their nations, we are even allowing our capitalist investor class to invest in those economies, taking advantage of the low wages and disciplined work force that communisim brought about. Virtually, our investor class is saying that capitalism is good but communism with capitalism taking advantage of the low wages is better. The cold war is far from over. we should not be buying products from any country that is still communist....it is not fair to our companies or to our workers. Hell, we let the righties destroy the unions, now we are going to let them force us to work for the same wages as people in a communist nation like China???
If investors couldn't make money selling out America then they would instead invest in America....what a concept. John Kerry proposed that any investment in overseas companies would lose their tax exemption....why hasn't Bush proposed the same thing???????

It all goes to show how Senior was able to sort the bullshit out and Junior has just never been up to the task.

Danni,

You and I think quite similar just are saying it differently.

During the cold war it would take an act of god to allow corporations to invest our capital in a communist country.

We invested our capital in countries to prevent communism. Now, our corporate elite no longer feel the war of economic poor to move to communism because they think they have shown it is a failure.

They don't understand that China is mixing capitalism with communism to their giant success. If we are not careful we will lose our economic power status.

Unfortunately the right are deluded from being on top so long they have lost the mental status of economic growth for long term comes through the people not the corporations.

Money -- "Everytime Israel kills we back Israel to the teeth, well, the only ones backing the Islamists are the extreme Islamists and one wonders why the elected Islamists."

If this were true, before the Jews held Israel the Muslims would have had no interest in their demise -- correct?

But the Muslims were quite interested in Naziism & actively helped Hitler. Before that, and for the last 2,000 years the Muslims were persecuting & killing Jews.

Money, How do you explain that according to your"vicious cycle" theory?

H

The Bush family likewise funded and actively helped Hitler.

Amazing how the agenda of the Bush family always coincides with that of the Muslims, isn't it?

COME, LET'S TO BED

"To bed! To bed!"
Says Sleepy-head;
"Tarry awhile," says Slow;
"Put on the pan,"
Says Greedy Nan;
"We'll sup before we go."

Jetsum, you are wigging...you'd better sleep!

H

Is Democracy Empowering Islamists?

Obviously.

Democracy isn't necessarily white guys in powdered wigs, short pants and silk stockings standing around Independence Hall. It CAN be the fuckin' French Revolution.

Bush and the NeoCons made this bed. Now they roll on over and enjoy it.

Before that, and for the last 2,000 years the Muslims were persecuting & killing Jews.

And Christians weren't? I must have missed the Muslim part in the history books.

awww...the love you guys show for the guys that want to kill you and everyone that you know is so touching.

What do you expect? Everybody knows, except the napalm snuffers, that Bush and his cronies are a pack of idiots. Children of the lie, repent! God is beginning to hate America and favor its enemies. Bringing on the Rapture isn't going to save your evil asses. Being puppets of the lie doesn't mean that God will jerk you up to heaven by your puppet strings.

HORACE,

MONEYWAR like so many on the left just chooses the easiest answer and facts be damned.

Many here seem to forget the many different reasons given for invading Iraq. It appears that most have bought the "we're promoting democracy" excuse which was I believe reason #2 - the first one had been WMD.

Do you actually believe Bush wanted to invade Iraq to spread Democracy? Seriously?
I'd first say it had something to do with his father's legacy and repairing it.
Second, I'd say it had to do with our oil interests - anyone remember the closed door meeting in Cheney's office pre war?

As for Democracy in Muslim countries - look at Turkey for the model. The Shah attempted to do it in Iran when he forced the removal of the veil from women and pushed the males to use western dress ... for his trouble he was deposed by the Islamists. This is all about fundamentalism and its a good reason to be concerned about it no matter what religions. Just look at our own brand here in the US. Had Pat Robertson been elected President when he ran, do any of you doubt America would have similar problems ?

The answer to this blogs pressing question -

Yes and then no, Democracy has helped hard line fudamentalist in the short term in a few of these elections. But in the end it will kill them.

Yes and then no, Democracy has helped hard line fudamentalist in the short term in a few of these elections. But in the end it will kill them.

Unfortunately for us, it may take a major war to do it.

"and for the last 2,000 years the Muslims were persecuting & killing Jews....Posted by horace at 2006-01-29 01:41 AM | Reply"

Islam hasn't been around for 2,000 years.

Of course, Christians are blameless in the persecution and death of Jews.

I believe some history lessons are called for.

"Islam hasn't been around for 2,000 years."

FACTS? FACTS?
We do' need no steenkin' facts!!

Wait!
I found one!
With actual contemporary records to back it up! Muhammad was born in 569.

2000 years? how is that possible when the earth is only 43 years old?

It's a miracle!

The sky god works in mysterious ways, its wonders to perform.

" how is that possible when the earth is only 43 years old?"

WAIT ONE MINUTE!!
I'm 56!
I actually got a senior citizen's discount at the catfish buffet last night.
I lived in Waco 43 years ago.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Who would have thought?

Posted by danni at 2006-01-28 07:45 PM | Reply

Dumbya is still scratching his head on that one.

Before that, and for the last 2,000 years the Muslims were persecuting & killing Jews.

And Christians weren't? I must have missed the Muslim part in the history books.

Posted by Ray at 2006-01-29 08:24 AM | Reply


Actually ANTI-CHRISTIANS have a much higher death toll than CHRISTIANS do. Look at U.S.S.R. alone, some 60-100 million dead--in the name of athiesm and communism.

Hitler, another great anti-christian, killed how many million?

The accusation that "Christianity" killed a bunch of people doesn't really take into account that those were the "dark ages" when the Bible was locked up in monasteries outside of the languages of the common people.

When the Bible finally got out, then people could hold it up to the "All mighty state" and say that it was wrong (like the "divine right of kings" is B.S. in 1 Samuel 8).

I'm sure this will get a great reception here.....

What a lot of baloney. The Bible was locked up...LOL. I've heard of rationalizations of the Crusades and Inquisitions and witch burnings, etc., but I've never heard any excuse as ridiculous as that.

I think the principle that mr. bush has exspoused in the past,,,,"Democracies don't attack other Democracies"... is in for a serious test...soon.

Like most of the other crap he dishes out.

Bush talks out of his ass. You can always tell who the idiots are- they are the ones thinking GWB's words are profound.

Reg: "and for the last 2,000 years the Muslims were persecuting & killing Jews....Posted by horace at 2006-01-29 01:41 AM | Reply"

Islam hasn't been around for 2,000 years.

Of course, Christians are blameless in the persecution and death of Jews.

I believe some history lessons are called for."


Fair enough on the typo. I don't claim to be perfect, but Reginald -- if you kne the history of Islam as you seem to imply, you would realize that Islam has been violently opposed to Christianity & Judaism since Muhhamed's "revelation" in 610.

Minus 600 years, how is the tenor of the post wrong?

H

Good day Horace,

The revelation you're speaking of occurred when Mohammed reoriented the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to Mecca, correct?
Or are you referring to another event?

ALL RELIGION is evil. It needs to be destroyed.

Of course, Christians are blameless in the persecution and death of Jews.


we see your point but the difference is that these two religions have changed. they have developed and moved away from this and the muslum world hasnt. tell me the about the last inquistion or the like and then tell me when the date of the last muslum killing....must have been yesterday....I believe.

Of course, Christians are blameless in the persecution and death of Jews.


we see your point but the difference is that these two religions have changed. they have developed and moved away from this and the muslum world hasnt. tell me the about the last inquistion or the like and then tell me when the date of the last muslum killing....must have been yesterday....I believe.