The idea of an investment is to achieve profits. Investing in Greece now would be like investing in Enron after the scandal was exposed - just not done.

There is always a way to make money.

The idea of an investment is to achieve profits. Investing in Greece now would be like investing in Enron after the scandal was exposed - just not done.

Which only highlights the greediness aspect of it. No return? Fuck em.

Ah yes, if not the the words racist or Nazi, it's greed. Would it ever occur to you that one does not invest to lose? I'm just a small investor yet I only invest where there is a good chance of return. Should you ever gather more that two pennies to rub together then maybe you will invest in Greece and feel smug about yourself.

As for me, I've even divested [for you that means that I've sold off/cashed out] from US Treasuries as I'm getting a much higher return from dividend paying stocks. Now you can condemn me for being greedy for not handing over my monies for a minuscule return from the govt.

Shove your condescension up your ass, dipshit.

The point is that it's greedy (yes, it's greedy) to cash out from the society and country you made your fortune in unless there's profit in it for you.

If that isn't greed, I don't know what is.

(there's also the issue of money being the be all end all to so many, but since you evidently fit in to this I wouldn't expect you to understand)

Country treats rich people like ATMs. People leave, won't return to become sacrificial lamb. People are called greedy.

Greece already got hundreds of billions in bailouts, paid for by the wealthy. They've done their part. Now the rioters can be faced with fiscal reality, to fulfill theirs. That is- you have to work past 50, you have to contribute to health care and pensions, that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Greece already got hundreds of billions in bailouts, paid for by the wealthy.
#6 | POSTED BY ADAMMM

You clearly do not understand the Greek bailouts, who benefits, and who pays. First of all, the Greeks didn't get shit for the bailouts - I mean that in the sense that not 1 additional dollar flowed into Greece from the bailout money. This bailout was purely to keep the banks from recognizing a 100% loss on their investment in Green bonds, it was not a means by which Greece got any additional money to pay for services for its people. Further, the 'wealthy' in terms of Greeks did not pay shit unless indirectly via ownership in the large banks that agreed to the haircuts on outstanding debt. Frankly, the greeks would have been much better off to simply default and/or simply pay the debt in Drachma and screwed the investors. Of course, investors would not extend them additional money which would force them to have a balance budget, but it would remove the unaffordable debt from the heads of their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc.

The rich Greeks aren't much different from rich Americans, they can invest in China where they can profit from slave labor. Yes, they can take their money and leave but the places they can go are becoming fewer and fewer, eventually they will be isolated in placed like Dubai. The world will survive and prosper without them but I hope we don't forget who they are. Any that leave should be informed that once they do it is forever.

I agree with the rich Greek who said, "Why should I give my money to people who I consider worthless." I believe in a fair system where everyone works and pays taxes. Obama;s base is made up of a bunch of welfare scum who never worked and just slop from the public trough.

Harris Dellas, who has worked for 13 years at the Economics Institute at Bern University, said nobody was keen to invest in the current hostile environment.

“You never know when there might be a strike; the unions are very powerful, the government is slapdash and constantly changes the rules; there is huge bureaucracy and lots of corruption. The infrastructure is also a disaster,” he said.

Who invest in such a sitution? toss in ObamaCare and EPA regulation and you have US!
Greese will look like a sound investment when we start circling the bowl.

The world will survive and prosper without them

#8 | Posted by danni at 2012-02-13 07:56 AM

And whine all you want about the rich, but the REALITY (hard to grasp, I know) is that they can move away- governments and countries and the poor can not. So revile them and tax them all you want, but it's a futile endeavor.

#5 | Posted by jpw at 2012-02-12 08:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

And it is not greedy to expect the investments of people who DO NOT HAVE to invest with you?

Don't forget, investments are good for both parties... both parties benefit. You better believe that the U.S. or any other country (before the recent past) would not intentionally be a part of an investment in which they would lose from.

Even states and countries do not go into investments in which they know there will be no positive return.

Like other posters have said, that is stupid. If individuals want to do that, they are free to do that. Countries, on the other hand, are dealing with the money of their constituents... they can't go wasting their peoples money willy-nilly.

No one is being condescending to you. It is plainly not very smart to intentionally invest in something that will most surely bring about a loss when you are not interested in doing so.

I would say it is more greedy for people to expect individuals to invest in guaranteed losses when the people expected to be investing do not want to invest THEIR money in a manner they deem foolish.

I would say it is more greedy for people to expect individuals to invest in guaranteed losses when the people expected to be investing do not want to invest THEIR money in a manner they deem foolish.
#13 | Posted by ExpsRedemption

Which is shocking considering these are the same people who refuse to accept austerity measure from a country with no ability to pay the entitlements and they show their displeasure by burning down business and offices that they will have to pay to rebuild while driving any tourism out of the country. They have the makings of fine democrats.

I'm shocked the whole world is not jumping to invest in these idiots.

The idea of an investment is to achieve profits. Investing in Greece now would be like investing in Enron after the scandal was exposed - just not done.

Greece is in a death spiral. Half the people are on the government payroll and retire at 54 with 80% compensation. They've run off all of their industrial manufacturing and are basically down to tourism, shipping and fishing. At the demands of the leftists, their tax rates were so high that all of their money left the country and went to Switzerland. Even when they tried to lower their rates, the behavior didn't change because everyone knows that the government is going to try to confiscate their money at some point.

They've borrowed multitudes of money from the EU to fund their welfare state and they can't pay it back. Now, the EU is having to loan them more money so that Greece can pay back the EU. (Sounds smart doesn't it?)
And now, no one is investing in Greece because it's financials are an abortion (or a leftist dream - same thing).

Bitch and moan some more lefties. You got exactly what you wanted.

Sounds like the rich fucks here that are hiding their money off shore so they don't have to pay their taxes.

I would say it is more greedy for people to expect individuals to invest in guaranteed losses when the people expected to be investing do not want to invest THEIR money in a manner they deem foolish.

See Solyndra. Or any "Green Energy" initiative.
Leftists don't understand basic economics. They were too busy spending all of their time in 'Cultural Studies" classes in school.

Greece is a leftist dream.
And they can't blame it on the wars that Greece started, the patriot act, global fucking warming, corporate America, racism or any of their other stupid talking points. So they try 'taxes'. Problem is that Greece had a pretty high tax rate, so all of the wealthy Greeks took up 'official' residence in countries that don't tax as much. Or they moved their money outside of the country. Exactly what happens when you rape and pillage people's wealth.

Besides, it isn't taxes that is the problem. Ireland, Spain, Italy, Greece, France and the U.S. are all going through the same problem to different degrees. It isn't a problem of taxes. It's a problem of the welfare state. It already killed Eastern Europe, Cuba and the Soviets. The Chinese abandoned it as an economic system a generation ago because it destroyed them too.
Now it's moved to the West.

It's very simple. It's just hard to see when you have your head up your ass.

Okay you left wingers why not show the world how you care about people, invest in the greek economy with your 401k's. Its only FAIR. That would show those greedy people. What? You won't invest a dime because you are sure you would lose it? How then can you expect someone that has worked hard and made a lot of money to throw his money away? Or is it the typical left wing thinking, lets take someone elses money and throw it away, but not ours.

Bottom line the Greeks are paying for their past because the nanny state, like the one Obama is trying to set up, cannot support itself. They have not earned the right to ask their wealthy to help.

Sounds like the rich fucks here that are hiding their money off shore so they don't have to pay their taxes.

Funny how that happens when you try to take it away.

Leftist fuckwads don't understand that you want lots of rich people in your country. Buying lots of shit. Spending lots of money.
Being fair about taxation is one thing. Putting a bullseye on their back to pay for your free shit is another. It jusst forces them away.

Here you go.
Same diatribe from a generation ago-

The world will survive and prosper without them but I hope we don't forget who they are. Any that leave should be informed that once they do it is forever.

#8 | Posted by danni at 2012-02-13 07:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

Danni would strip someone of their citizen rights because she doesn't like their portfolio.

#21 | Posted by vernon at 2012-02-13 09:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe she would just order them to be killed with a drone strike without a trial. Remember she supported Obama doing that with Awlaki... but didn't support those actions against non-citizens under Bush.

"The rich Greeks aren't much different from rich Americans"

Don't know about that. But the average Greek is nothing like the average American when it comes to work ethic. So, IMO, you can't really draw too many parallels between Greece and USA as far as how to fix financial problems. Greece is hopeless.

Take notice Libs. Greece is Amerika's future. It's what you thought could never happen.

I believe in a fair system where everyone works and pays taxes.

#9 | POSTED BY FWTHOM

Bullshit. You vote Republican straight ticket.

Dr. Dude2
Post 19

Right on the money, that is what the left wing morons do not understand. That rich person buying fancy clothes, yatchs, cars, houses actually creates employment for the middle class. In turn these people pay their taxes rather than taking from the government in unemployment.

If you can retire in your early 50's and get 80% of your pay it is no wonder Greece is broke. This is coming here, Obama is trying to destroy the middle class by running the rich out of the country and creating huge national debt. Then, like in Russia, when the currency collapses the politicians step in and create a dictatorship by making all the old money worthless. At that point the people are powerless. Is it any wonder money is flowing out of the U.S. at an alarming rate? You need to ask yourself why do we need to incur these huge deficits? What does it do to our economy? Remeber this when the inflation starts and the fed has to raise rates we will all suffer huge. Just go back and look at history, Jimmy Carter and the 20%+ prime interest rates, mortgage rates in the low to mid teens. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it and believe me it is coming.

Take notice Libs. Greece is Amerika's future. It's what you thought could never happen.

#24 | POSTED BY RAY

Couldn't agree more. Greece has no capital gains or income tax on profits made from stock or equity exchanges. It tried to balance its entire budget on the backs of the working class.

This is what happens in an environment run by the rich. The internal buying power of consumers was slowly crushed. The domestic market collapsed. Government benefits were slashed as government income dried up. The middle class slipped into the lower class. The rich took their money and walked.

Notice the similarities? Mitt Rmoney is dreaming of a similar America where he doesn't even have to pay 14%.

Looting the middle class doesn't work. Grow up, Republicans.

"If you can retire in your early 50's and get 80% of your pay it is no wonder Greece is broke. This is coming here..."

How? How has Obama lowered the retirement age, or guaranteed payouts of 80% to all retirees?

"money is flowing out of the U.S. at an alarming rate"

Link, please.

America, unlike Greece, controls their own currency.

Understanding The Modern Monetary System

-Looting the middle class doesn't work.

"It's our short-term solution!" - The Right

Looting the middle class doesn't work. Grow up, Republicans.

I don't think it's likely that we will lower the rates on capital gains or dividends from where they currently are. If Obama wins a 2nd term, I would consider it a victory for the wealthy to keep it where it is.

Personally, I think there are so many differences between the US and Greece to make a very good comparison and attempt to predict where the US is headed.

You certainly can't just point to one policy and say, "See, we are headed there...."

-Looting the middle class doesn't work.
"It's our short-term solution!" - The Right
#30 | Posted by Corky

The Liberal solution of robbing from themselves doesn't work either.
No economic system can stand when the tax consumers outnumber the tax producers.

Looting the middle class doesn't work. Grow up, Republicans.

Greece destroyed the middle class a generation ago when they decided to 'tax the rich' (out of the country). Once the money left, the middle class all went to work for the government under the welfare state programs they expanded. Then they had to borrow to sustain the welfare state.

They tried to lower taxes to draw wealth back into the country after the money left but it was too late. Their credibility was shot and people weren't going to pay for a bloated government that doesn't work.

Nice try, but it's all leftism - again. There was/is no analog to the Republican party in Greece, so give it another shot. You still haven't tried the following:

1. Racism
2. Corporate America
3. Global Warming
4. War on terrorism

sycophant
#27

You are missing the point as one would expect from a lib. If you run the money out of the country by having the highest or second highest tax rate in the world, making it next to impossible to expand business here so it makes more sense to go overseas, contiuously villifying the people with money that create jobs, using agencies like the courts and EPA to hold up and delay business expansion these are the things that are getting us in trouble. In Greece it is a free ride mentality and when the number of free riders exceeds the income of the government creating deficits, just like the huge deficits Obama has incurred, ti si no wonder they are broke. Too many people getting a free ride. We are approaching that point with almost 50% of th epopulation not paying any income tax. If you taxed the rich 100% it would not make a dent in hte deficit.

A good example, when was the last nuclear power plant built in the U.S.? It has been over 30 years, why? Special intrest groups using courts and EPA to block them. Meanwhile Europe gets over 50% of their electricity from nuclear. Another, Freemont California, why do you think Toyota is closing the assembly plant after the dissolution of the partnership with GM? Too many regulations making the plant a money loser. Why has CarlsJr, a fast food chain, stopped expanding in California? The cost to run one of their stores is astronomically higher than anywhere else in the country. You libs need to open your eyes and see what is happening, the hate the rich rhetoric is driving investment out of the country and with it go the jobs, the middle class, and the American way of life. Couple that with the weakest president since Herbert Hoover and you have a recipe for disaster.

The Liberal solution of robbing from themselves doesn't work either.

It's hard to have a middle class when there is no upper class.
All you are left with is a bunch of entitlement bunnies who have to riot and burn their city down in protest of the belt tightening. (Sounds familiar to OWS doesn't it?)

In a way, I really feel for the Greeks. But the bottom line is that the impending train wreck of socialism is easy to forsee. In fact, it was foreseen long ago. The funny thing about it is that the leftist diatribe on how to fix this train wreck is to switch tracks to another oncoming train.

They never learn.

If you taxed the rich 100% it would not make a dent in hte deficit.

Danforth,
Perhaps you have been out of the loop, we have the second highest coporate tax rate in the world, over 50% of americans pay zero income tax and I might add a number of them find that increasing their income moves them into a bracket that takes more in taxes than the income increase, 60% of the tax burden is shouldered by 5% of the wage earners and all the democrats can do is demand more of them ( you can find this information on a number of sites including usgov.org), because of onerous regulation businesses have been moving money to other countries to create jobs. It is not that the american worker is overpriced, it is almost impossible to build anything here. Case in point, Keystone pipeline that Obama has nixed. Creates thousands of new jobs and we would buy oil from a U.S. freindly nation and be able to shed some of our dependence on Arab countries. Environmental risk is almost nil as pipelines that leak or break are easily detectable and repairable unlike in the middle of the ocean.

I would hope facts like these will help you see why the economy and the country are having problems because as a result we are spending more than we take in. Now when the day comes that the Chinese say we are not buying anymore of your debt what do you think will happen? Look at Greece, same problem different road to get there. It is like the old saying "give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves"

Which only highlights the greediness aspect of it. No return? Fuck em.

#3 | Posted by jpw

The stupid pricks won't try to help themselves so, 'fuck em'. The stupid SOBs won't change anything to keep their government going so they should ALL go down together. FUCK EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"we have the second highest coporate tax rate in the world'

And we lead the world in corporate loopholes.

"60% of the tax burden is shouldered by 5% of the wage earners"

Bullshit. You're only counting one type of "tax burden".

"because of onerous regulation businesses have been moving money to other countries to create jobs."

Well, yeah, if you consider a minimum wage to be "onerous regulation".

"I would hope facts like these will help you see why the economy and the country are having problems because as a result we are spending more than we take in."

Grow up. We spend more than we take in because the last time we had surplus budget projections a Republican purposely altered course toward deficits.

"over 50% of americans pay zero income tax"

Fact #1: Income taxes make up about a third of government revenue.
Fact #2: 2/3rds of workers pay more in payroll taxes over their lifetimes than income taxes.
Fact #3: The single biggest reason the percentage of folks who don't pay income taxes spiked --the child tax credit-- was written by Republicans, and then that credit was doubled by Republicans.

But you'll still complain about the folks not paying income tax without holding the Rs responsible, right?

The stupid pricks won't try to help themselves so, 'fuck em'. The stupid SOBs won't change anything to keep their government going so they should ALL go down together. FUCK EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep. God forbid government employees work beyond the age of 54.
God forbid they pay for part of their own healthcare. God forbid they give up some of the free ride that the rest of Europe paid for.

It's all the fault of the rich who don't want their wealth confiscated.

#39 | Posted by Danforth at 2012-02-13 12:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

A tax credit comes to the individual whether they paid into the tax system or not. People who receive tax credits still have to pay income taxes in the first place.

I think he is talking about people who pay not income taxes whether they get a child tax credit or not.

The child tax credit does not stop people who would otherwise pay income tax from paying income tax. It is something you get back after you get back on your return, but does not necessitate that you did not pay anything.

Grow up. We spend more than we take in because the last time we had surplus budget projections a Republican purposely altered course toward deficits.

Right.
You must live on the planet where Whitney Houston didn't have a drug problem. There never was a fucking surplus genius. Social Securty was conveniently removed from the tally.

Fact #1: Income taxes make up about a third of government revenue.
Fact #2: 2/3rds of workers pay more in payroll taxes over their lifetimes than income taxes.
Fact #3: The single biggest reason the percentage of folks who don't pay income taxes spiked --the child tax credit-- was written by Republicans, and then that credit was doubled by Republicans.

Then I assume you'd support a consumption tax, right Danfuck?
After all, both Dems and Repubs can't seem to manage an income tax, per your own statement.

"A tax credit comes to the individual whether they paid into the tax system or not. People who receive tax credits still have to pay income taxes in the first place. "

Try that again. You have at least one obvious mistake in that statement.

"I think he is talking about people who pay not income taxes whether they get a child tax credit or not. "

Gee, then you're talking about a single person who makes less than $200 a week, and that person is still paying over $750 in payroll taxes.

"The child tax credit does not stop people who would otherwise pay income tax from paying income tax."

You could not be more wrong. Why are you making such blatantly wrong statements?

"There never was a fucking surplus genius."

There were surplus projections as far as the eye could see, and we were literally months away from a true surplus situation. Dubya purposely altered course. He was given nothing but surplus budget projections, and left nothing but exploding deficits.

Even you can do that math.

"I assume you'd support a consumption tax"

In an economy which relies 70% on consumption? Why assume that?

"Social Securty was conveniently removed from the tally."

Yes, and had been since Reagan. So I guess we'll have to restate Dubya's deficits upwards. The first budget year under Dubya was slated for a true surplus, but Dubya opted for tax cuts instead. Weren't you paying attention?

#3 | Posted by jpw

Which only highlights the greediness aspect of it. No return? Fuck em.
-----------------
It's commonsense not greed.

#5 | Posted by jpw

Shove your condescension up your ass, dipshit.

The point is that it's greedy (yes, it's greedy) to cash out from the society and country you made your fortune in unless there's profit in it for you.

If that isn't greed, I don't know what is.

(there's also the issue of money being the be all end all to so many, but since you evidently fit in to this I wouldn't expect you to understand)
--------------
Your post are TFF. 1st of all the Greek that has money to invest would not have any if he/she followed your model, because they would be broke.

There were surplus projections as far as the eye could see, and we were literally months away from a true surplus situation. Dubya purposely altered course. He was given nothing but surplus budget projections, and left nothing but exploding deficits.

Sure. And if we don't count Medicare, Welfare and Social Security, there's still a fucking surplus.

Sorry, but you can't blame George Bush for this one Danfuck. Greece's problems are the welfare state, welfare state, welfare state. Despite your petty attempts to change the subject by saying that they didn't 'tax the rich'. They tried to tax the rich. And they succeeded. They taxed the rich and their money right out of the fucking country.

Face it. Your socialist bullshit has failed.
Again.

Yes, and had been since Reagan. So I guess we'll have to restate Dubya's deficits upwards. The first budget year under Dubya was slated for a true surplus, but Dubya opted for tax cuts instead. Weren't you paying attention

And Obummer's too.
Funny that the USA federal budget can't be blamed for the collapse of Greece isn't it.

I know. Let's try this one of these. Greece is failing because:
1. Of Racism.
2. Global Warming
3. Rape of the Native Americans
4. The KKK
5. Slavery
6. The religious right
7. Ronald Reagan
8. Homophobia
9. Islamophobia
10. Arab Spring & the Japanese Tsunami

This is a planned demolition designed to concentrate wealth and power at an accelerated rate. Under a facade of “Democracy” public policy is being written by lobbyists and unelected bureaucrats beholding to FIRE (Finance, Insurance and Real Estate). They are still in charge and dictating policy in spite of a track record of decline and destruction. The ECB is being run by a former Goldman-Sachs Executive who is demanding public austerity, the right to buy up all of Greece’s public assets from tourist attractions to harbors and trains, 10% across the board wage cuts and unfettered free trade. They are even demanding the right to import nutritionally deficient baby food, outlawed under current law. While the USA is bigger and harder to tame than little old Greece, make no mistake about it FIRE has the same plan in mind here.

Taking absolute control and writing policy contracts secretly while maintaining a facade of "Democracy" squeezes the last drop of debt blood out of the country before its economy completely collapses rendering further debt payments impossible. But it becomes another total victory for FIRE as they then control of all Greek toll gates.

Danforth,

Granted we have too many loopholes, and how do they get passed, by congress. Now who has run congress with the exception of maybe 8 to 10 years since the late 40's? The democrats, so they obviously have overwhelmingly supported tax loopholes. I can agree with that.

Okay, so you do not agree with IRS figures that are common knowledge. I do not understand your thinking, a non partisan organization, IRS, publishes the figures but you refuse to believe them. I cannot do anymore than give you facts, but if you refuse to believe them so be it.

Moving out of the country has nothing to do with minimum wage. The jobs we are talking about in factories are not minimum wage jobs. What does have to do with it is not being able to expand without having to spend big money to jump through hoops when the competition, other countries, actually help businesses expand. The government in this country continues to have an advisarial relationship with business. Go overseas and they welcome and help business get what they need so they get the jobs. The transportation and spoilage from substandard or damaged product is expensive but cheap when you consider lost revenue fighting the U.S. government.

The only balanced budget in the last 60+ years happened when we had a republican congress. The president can only sign what congress sends him. So the party that has had control of congress for almost all of the last 60 years is the democrats. Why have they not balanced the budget? In fact why has the democratic senate not even brought a budget to the president for over two years?

Can you direct me where you got your statistics on taxes? I would be interested in seeing it. Social security is only around 6% and stops being taken out around 100K in income. Somehow I do not see how the payroll taxes are more than the average under 100k income that is about 20 to 25 per cent in federal tax.

I know. Let's try this one of these. Greece is failing because:
1. Of Racism.
2. Global Warming
3. Rape of the Native Americans
4. The KKK
5. Slavery
6. The religious right
7. Ronald Reagan
8. Homophobia
9. Islamophobia
10. Arab Spring & the Japanese Tsunami

Thanks Nutcase. I'll add in:
11. FIRE (Finance, Insurance and Real Estate)
12. Goldman Sachs
13. nutritionally deficient baby food

Did I miss anything?

The jobs we are talking about in factories are not minimum wage jobs

Exactly. How much stuff have you bought lately that was stamped 'made in Greece'? The last figures I saw were that Greece exported $29.1 Billion worth of goods and imported $93 Billion. The libtards destroyed the Greek manufacturing base in much the same way the unions have destroyed America's.

Did I miss anything?

#54 | POSTED BY DR_DUDE2: You forgot Nazis, lots of Nazis :)

To the tune of the Theme from Grease

We got no jobs
So now we're gonna burn
Down our city blocks
This isn't your concern

So there's have no money
To repair the damage done
We had a lot of fun
Our reputation's earned
Greece is absurd

We're on the Euro
But we don't get paid
So now we're afraid
And acting stupidly

Athens on fire
Let's all roast some smores
We would rather be with whores
But they don't give up for free
Greece is absurd

Greece is absurd
It's absurd
So I've heard
There is looting and fighting

Greece is a blaze
I'm amazed
No one's phased
Isn't anyone thinking?

Greece is absurd
Its absurd
Its absurd
Its absurd

When the Greek riots come to Amerika, Liberals will no doubt be in the front lines.

Why should it be the burden of the wealthy to support the lazy and shiftless masses? Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me. I never give money to poor people except at church or when it is tax deductible.

No citation necessary.

classwarfare going interntaional.

so now its rich greeks abroad who;s at fault for lazy greek punks....

fuckem....

Well said AFKABL2! Well said!

well uh...gee...I dont think I can add to that.. :)

Greece already got hundreds of billions in bailouts, paid for by the wealthy. They've done their part.
#6 | POSTED BY ADAMMM A

The wealthy in Greece paid nothing, other EU countries paid with the taxes of their citizen.

The greek government should just give greeks what they want. Leave the EU and print enough money so that everyone would be rich!

#44 | Posted by Danforth at 2012-02-13 12:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

Are you trying to say that if I had two children, was at a level required to pay federal income tax, but those child credits amounted to more than I would pay in income taxes that year... I would not have federal income tax taken out of any of my checks for the year?

"Are you trying to say that if I had two children, was at a level required to pay federal income tax, but those child credits amounted to more than I would pay in income taxes that year... I would not have federal income tax taken out of any of my checks for the year? "

Only if you were smart...so no.

Any taxes owed are offset by the child tax credit, and if that's not enough, the remainder becomes a refundable credit. If the worker knows he won't be liable for any income taxes due to his income and exemptions, he's only loaning the government free money if he's having any federal income taxes withheld.

"Okay, so you do not agree with IRS figures that are common knowledge."

You're confusing posted rate with effective rate.

"Moving out of the country has nothing to do with minimum wage."

#66 | Posted by Danforth at 2012-02-13 04:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

Do federal taxes get taken out of my pay from work or not?

Yes or no will suffice.

If Yes... I still pay income tax. I just get a credit at the end of the year.

If no, then you are correct and I am incorrect.

I am pretty sure if I make enough to pay federal income tax I end up getting federal income tax taken out of my pay from work regardless of whether I have a credit on my tax return or not.

#67 | Posted by Danforth at 2012-02-13 04:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

Do you have an iphone or ipad? Mac computer?

"Do federal taxes get taken out of my pay from work or not? "

That depends on how you filled out your W-4. If you filled it out properly, then no.

Regardless, if $1000 was withheld in federal income taxes, and no federal taxes are due, you'll get the $1000 back. In the tax world, we call that a refund.

"I am pretty sure if I make enough to pay federal income tax I end up getting federal income tax taken out of my pay from work regardless of whether I have a credit on my tax return or not."

Then you're making a mistake filling out your W-4. IOW, you want to blame others for your ignorance.

"Do you have an iphone or ipad? Mac computer?"

How would that change the facts about minimum wage?

No economic system can stand when the tax consumers outnumber the tax producers.

#32 | Posted by Ray

It's simple math and most liberals either ignore it or simply don't understand the mathematical ratio involved.

It has already happened at a state level which is why we are seeing governors cutting back on public employee goodies.

#70 | Posted by Danforth at 2012-02-13 04:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

It doesn't change the facts about the minimum wage... but it does say a whole lot about your concern regarding outsourcing and slave wages...

"but it does say a whole lot about your concern regarding outsourcing and slave wages..."

And where, exactly, did I show concern about anything other than rank stupidity?

It has already happened at a state level which is why we are seeing governors cutting back on public employee goodies.
#71 | Posted by JeffJ

After decades of attacking the free market economy from every direction, Libs, like the Greeks, are about to learn the hard way that it was the free market economy that was paying the bills.

"After decades of attacking the free market economy from every direction"

It was lack of regulation, not too much regulation, that caused the Wall Street meltdown. That, and capitalism going on one of its frequent tulip manias.

After decades of attacking the free market economy from every direction, Libs, like the Greeks, are about to learn the hard way that it was the free market economy that was paying the bills.

#74 | Posted by Ray

Yep.

It was lack of regulation, not too much regulation, that caused the Wall Street meltdown.

Actually, it was a government initiative that was the foundation for the meltdown.

That, and capitalism going on one of its frequent tulip manias.

#75 | Posted by nullifidian

With government serving not only as a backstop, but also an enabler is it surprising that capitialists would follow Fannie's lead and eviscerate lending standards for huge short-term rewards AND avoid government bullying and accusations of racism?

"it was a government initiative that was the foundation for the meltdown."

How was the Lehmans of the world leveraging bad paper against bad paper at unprecedented ratios a "government initiative"...?

"How was the Lehmans of the world leveraging bad paper against bad paper at unprecedented ratios a "government initiative"...?"

What were they leveraging danforth? fannie/freddie insured product?

"What were they leveraging danforth?"

Reading problem or comprehension problem?

Danforth,

This is a continuation of our discussion from the other day.

I'll state my argument in a different way, and then I have to depart and leave you with the last word (we are far more in agreement on this than you realize; probably in near complete agreement - I just have to do a better job of articulating my point).

My point is this: The foundation/base of the meltdown was poor lending standards institutionalized by government. It was the sheer volume of bad paper that toxified everything that was to follow. Even before the laxed lending standards, Fannie would bundle literally thousands of mortgages together as securities and these received low-risk status from the ratings agencies. With the laxed standards these securities became toxic ( best-case-scenario: bad paper nullifed good paper in a bundled investment - it was usually bad paper on top of bad paper) Fannie started the process and Wall Street happily followed suit when it was clear that the risks would be socialized. Note: I could talk about a new investment theory that came about that assigned a lower profit risk to higher-risk lendees because a profit-eroder was early re-payment of a loan...but that is ancillary. The volume of bad mortgages that were architected by government was the foundation. On their own, they weren't enough to cause the meltdown. The horrific leveraging, as you correctly point out, did that. The thing is, without the government sponsored/softly-coerced lending standards the quantity of bad paper would have been insufficient when bundled to create a meltdown of this magnitude (or anything close).

You seem to be trying to put the buggy in front of the horse. The horse is the horrible lending standards and the quantity of bad paper it produced (the origin of which was government). However, a horse can carry 1 rider whereas a buggy can carry 6 or so. The buggy was what you are describing, but a buggy can't move without being pulled by a horse.

Gotta go - I've got to make dinner.

Please take note of what I put in bold - sometimes I feel you are combative just for the sake of it. I bolded that sentence for a reason, please take the emphasis in context.

"The volume of bad mortgages that were architected by government was the foundation. On their own, they weren't enough to cause the meltdown. The horrific leveraging, as you correctly point out, did that. The thing is, without the government sponsored/softly-coerced lending standards the quantity of bad paper would have been insufficient when bundled to create a meltdown of this magnitude (or anything close)."

Show me where the government forced the unprecedented leveraging of bad paper against bad paper, and I'll agree.

"What were they leveraging danforth?"

Reading problem or comprehension problem?
#79 | Posted by Danforth at 2012-02-13 05:38 PM

Not sure. I chalk it up to your ignorance. You are the fool asking what Lehman Brothers leveraged, and is dumb enough to pretend the Gov. initiative had no bearing. Not me. But then again, only one of us worked with Lehman and sold them loans, and of course know where and why those Alt A loans began to spring up...

The subprime crisis began to blow up in the second half of 2006, and it was in full force by spring, 2007. Lehman experienced the meltdown first hand because it was forced to hold much more of the mortgage-backed securities it originated than it had intended to. By January 2007, Lehman's securitization revenue -- the money it made by packaging and selling mortgages -- had plunged.

Even so, Valukas notes, Lehman kept issuing significant volumes of so-called Alternative-A mortgages (or Alt-A, those just one step above subprime) until August 2007. Indeed, Valukas says, Lehman management saw the subprime crisis as a countercyclical growth opportunity, believing the damage wouldn't spread to other economic sectors.

"Show me where the government forced the unprecedented leveraging of bad paper against bad paper, and I'll agree."

They didn't. fannie/freddie were the ones who allowed the loans to be mixed when they adopted the Alt A, reduced doc, etc programs. What part of fannie/freddie backed loans is giving you so much trouble?

"You are the fool asking what Lehman Brothers leveraged, and is dumb enough to pretend the Gov. initiative had no bearing. "

Some folks didn't lend beyond sanity, and didn't go belly up.

"Lehman experienced the meltdown first hand because it was forced to hold much more of the mortgage-backed securities it originated than it had intended to. "

Who "forced" Lehman? And how could they force Lehman and not others?

"What part of fannie/freddie backed loans is giving you so much trouble?"

What part of Lehman was doing stuff others wouldn't touch is going over your head?

"What part of fannie/freddie backed loans is giving you so much trouble?"

What part of Lehman was doing stuff others wouldn't touch is going over your head?

Posted by Danforth at 2012-02-13 05:55 PM

What are you babbling about? What other stuff? Did you even bother to read what I pasted? Or read Jeff's explanation?

I'm going to take the liberty of re-posting a earlier post written by NUTCASE (on another thread) who I thought did a terrific job of summing up the entire mortgage mess fueled by the crooks on Wall Street and their partners in crime - the banksters.

And this mortgage meltdown all became possible when a few Republican Senators managed to gut the Glass-Steagall Act thereby eliminating all the banking rules and regulations which had previously been put in place to prevent banks from becoming investors.

Steal Trillions, pay a $26 billion fine. This is one crooked business plan, one of many they exercised with impunity. Defraud hundreds of thousands with loans that convert suddenly to variable rate doubling and tripling payments, bundle subprime mortgages AAA rated based on fraudulent variable rates people did not realize they had signed up for, foreclose on your customers with forged documents, buyback the subprime shit from the Fed and Treasury for five cents on the dollar in auctions only available to the perpetrators of the fraud.

#5 | Posted by nutcase at 2012-02-11 11:08 PM

"And this mortgage meltdown all became possible when a few Republican Senators managed to gut the Glass-Steagall Act thereby eliminating all the banking rules and regulations which had previously been put in place to prevent banks from becoming investors."

I hate to break this to you, but those are apples and oranges. fannie/freddie wrote the rules, regulations, programs, pricing, approvals etc. The fact GS was gutted and allowed entities to act as banks did in fact create the mess, but again, had f/f not guaranteed the mortgages, and the stated programs there may not have been a housing crash...

Show me where the government forced the unprecedented leveraging of bad paper against bad paper, and I'll agree.

#81 | Posted by Danforth

They didn't. That part of the equation falls squarely on the private sector and the ratings agencies.

MY point is that the volume of bad paper to be poorly leveraged would have been greatly reduced had government not gotten involved.

The meltdown would not have happened without the government approved/coerced drop in lending standards. The meltdown ALSO would not have occurred had the bad leveraging not happened. The bad lending standards came first and they were pervasive. That is all.

And why should they? The US Fed is backstopping the Greeks now. What could possibly go wrong?

"The bad lending standards came first"

And that was fueled by greed and stupidity.

What kind of dope would invest in any market(Greece)that at this very moment is not sure which form of money they will be using in a week.

This will go all the way around the world.
Then land in your lap.
If you have money in anything, CASH OUT NOW.

You have no idea what your money is tied to and how many of the supporting markets will collapse and take your money with them.

Just like the housing market took billions of dollars from people who had nothing to do with the housing market, they just got raped.

When the housing market went belly up ALL THE FAT CATS WERE IN CASH by the time you found out what was going on it was all over.
Don't be a sucker again. CASH OUT NOW.

Remember the brokers and hedge fund jerk offs where telling you every thing was fine till the very last minute. CASH OUT NOW.

....NOPE IN NOVEMBER.....

And that was fueled by greed and stupidity.

#92 | Posted by Danforth

...and it wouldn't have happened without government.

This argument about leveraging is all fine and dandy, but Bear Sterns and Goldman didn't have the first fucking thing to do with Greece's spending. And there is no analog to the Republican party or George Bush in Greece. They have the Socialist party (in control) and the New Democratic party (the minority) - which is even further left than the Democratic party in the U.S.

There is no conservative party in Greece remotely similar to that in the U.S.

Greece is a fucking liberal utopia in the exact form that Danfuck, Donnerhead and Danni advocate for us in the USA. They have a state Healthcare system that is centrally controlled and an unmitigated disaster. They've done everything the way that the libtards on this board advocate day after day. The result is that they are headed for a complete Soviet style meltdown because they have destroyed their economic system - the goose that laid the golden egg and supported the welfare state spending that has been going on for years.

All of this staring us in the face and the best our libtard brethren can come up with is that they haven't taxed the rich enough and that we have crooks on Wall Street.
Lame. Truly lame.

And this was the birthplace of Helenistic thought. The will of the individual has been usurped by complacency and entitlement.

#93
If you have money in anything, CASH OUT NOW.

And then
do
wot?

#96 ...Hellenistic thought...

How? How has Obama lowered the retirement age, or guaranteed payouts of 80% to all retirees?

#28 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2012-02-13 09:56 AM

You are right, It's the same way he promised to cut the deficit in half in his first term. Then again, you can't trust political promises. We won't know it until it happens. Right?

I feel that what we are heading to is the entitlement mind thought of Greece. When the government has to make cuts, the Occupy people will turn into the Greece people and attack the states and the government.

Goldman-Sach's connection to the Greek meltdown is they were hired to issue the Bond's which are defaulting. In order to sell the Bonds Goldman-Sachs moved existing into phoney accounts, similar to Enron's "barges". They made money on that sale. Goldman immediately began placing bets that the Bonds would fail, just like they did with the "sub-prime securities" they marketed and bet against. Its a business plan similar to taking an insurance policy out on their neighbor and then killing them.

Greece's failure to preserve their own currency, as England and Sweden did, is their undoing. Goldman saw another opportunity and took advantage of it. Nothing Goldman has done has ever increased the wealth of the nation they work in or were hired to represent. Yet they capture most of the increased wealth in their countries of operation. This is achieved by bribing politicians.

whoa. 3 beers here and it's
really hard
to go there.

#98 | POSTED BY SOUTH_AMERICAN AT 2012-02-13 09:44 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Those 3 beers should just grease the wheels baby.

A couple puffs and you will be ready to truly study.

"You are right, It's the same way he promised to cut the deficit in half in his first term."

Apples and oranges. The deficit claim was stupid, he had no idea how badly his predecessor had fucked things up.

"I feel that what we are heading to is the entitlement mind thought of Greece."

We've had politicians who took our payments, and squandered them on wars of choice and tax cuts aimed at the wealthiest. Now that it's time for the payouts, the baby boomers are being told there's no money for them, but we have to keep the tax cuts on the rich.

IOW, there would be no talk of "entitlement" if the money had been given to Trustees instead of politicians. There was also no talk of "entitlement" when payroll taxes were a cash cow, either.

"Greece is a fucking liberal utopia in the exact form that Danfuck, Donnerhead and Danni advocate for us in the USA. "

Ah, that tried-and-true debating tactic: lie.

"They have a state Healthcare system that is centrally controlled and an unmitigated disaster. They've done everything the way that the libtards on this board advocate day after day."

Can you taste the stupid when shit like that comes out?

Greece is a model of corruption, if nothing else. It's common knowledge everyone bribes to get service.

Who "forced" Lehman? And how could they force Lehman and not others?

#84 | Posted by Danforth

Greed--stupidity--like you pointed out and little help from Goldman Sachs.

And then I read Nutcase's post #100 and they are at it again.

The Greeks problem is that it involves the Greeks.

They ran out of other people's money and they over charged the credit card.

They need to cut 15,000 jobs--UE is already 20% in Greece.

They can't turn the clock back on the peopl ewho retired at 52 or 54. They can fix it for the future.

But there are no jobs.

It's a vicious circle.

Greece will likely have to go BK--how are they supposed to get within their means and pay back the loans?

They can't.

----------

And then Danni--poor Danni--she wants to use other people's money to go invest in Greece which is burning to the ground as we post.

The hoardes have taken over the country and it's very ugly.

IOW, there would be no talk of "entitlement" if the money had been given to Trustees instead of politicians. There was also no talk of "entitlement" when payroll taxes were a cash cow, either.

#102 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2012-02-14 12:06 AM

So make a promise without understanding the situation? That's a great leader.

There's been talk of "entitlement" for a long time now but most people were busy working instead of protesting. My father can tell you when entitlement started. It started at the time welfare no longer required people to work to receive it. At the time, it could no longer be taken away and it became an "entitlement".

"There's been talk of "entitlement" for a long time now"

Horseshit. The first talk of entitlement was when we finally saw the SS surpluses were going the way of the dodo. Even now it's only viewed as money going out, and everyone ignores the constant stream of payroll taxes coming in to offset most of the outflow.

"At the time, it could no longer be taken away"

Have you got any proof for that?

The first talk of entitlement was when we finally saw the SS surpluses were going the way of the dodo. Even now it's only viewed as money going out, and everyone ignores the constant stream of payroll taxes coming in to offset most of the outflow.

Roughly 70% of what's been promised when the Boomers hit their retirement stride and drain the influx of cash.

The problem is that even right now COLA has been denied AND, according to SS proponents, old fogies get such a small stipend that they have to choose between purchasing staples or dog food; but not both.

Regardless, the SS trajectory is bad, but it pales when compared with Medicare/Aid. Those 2 programs are driving us right over a cliff unless they are structurally changed.

"The problem is that even right now COLA has been denied"

Only because inflation all but vanished momentarily. It's been reinstated at 3.6% for 2012.

"Those 2 programs are driving us right over a cliff unless they are structurally changed."

Maybe we should address reality and cut out the middlemen.

Maybe we should address reality and cut out the middlemen.

#111 | Posted by Danforth

You lost me, Swish. :-)

If you are angling toward single-pay I would argue that you are horribly misguided.

A legalized monopoly (government-run) breeds inefficiency as well as degrades the quality of care. In Michigan EVERY SINGLE Medicare/Aid patient is serviced at a loss. Public providers, like UofM ONLY survive by the profit margins generated from private insurance more than off-setting the losses of government-mandated reimbursement rates.

The HSA-model would do FAR more to drive costs down than any forced-monopoly could possibly realize.

"You lost me"

Other countries spend a lower % of their GDP, cover a higher % of their populace, and produce measurably better results. We pay the most by far, and our average results show we're getting relatively shitty value for the money. The government is already on the hook for 40% of the insured, with that number only slated to rise as the boomers move through retirement. We either need to learn lessons from others, or watch as health care becomes the purview of the executives and the rich.

"A legalized monopoly (government-run) breeds inefficiency as well as degrades the quality of care."

Gee, you'd be right, except for all the evidence around the world that you're wrong.

"In Michigan EVERY SINGLE Medicare/Aid patient is serviced at a loss."

Then the premiums aren't enough, are they? And speaking of Medicare premiums, how much have Medicare costs gone up in the last decade? Now how much have Medicare taxes gone up the last decade?

Any wonder why there's a funding gap?

"The HSA-model would do FAR more to drive costs down than any forced-monopoly could possibly realize."

But then you're back to financial disincentives to staying in good health.

Other countries spend a lower % of their GDP, cover a higher % of their populace

Yes and yes. To a point on the latter - No doubt you recognize that millions either qualify for state-assistance or can afford insurance but choose not to.

and produce measurably better results.

You've already acknowledged that advanced-care (cancer, etc) is unmatched when compared with the US, so I won't rehash that.

However, what are these "measurably better results"?

PS - if you cite life expectancy and ignore homocides and traffic fatalities then you deserve a good lashing from one of BBob's car antenas.

PPS - I am not trying to play 'gotcha'.

If you can provide evidence of these superior measured results then I am all-ears - or EYES as it would be in blogosphere.

"if you cite life expectancy and ignore homocides and traffic fatalities"

Gee, how about if I just cite life expectancy and ignore American death rates, would that help you narrow those goalposts?

"what are these "measurably better results"?"

France also demonstrates that you can deliver stellar results with this mix of public and private financing. In a recent World Health Organization health-care ranking, France came in first, while the U.S. scored 37th, slightly better than Cuba and one notch above Slovenia. France's infant death rate is 3.9 per 1,000 live births, compared with 7 in the U.S., and average life expectancy is 79.4 years, two years more than in the U.S. The country has far more hospital beds and doctors per capita than America, and far lower rates of death from diabetes and heart disease. The difference in deaths from respiratory disease, an often preventable form of mortality, is particularly striking: 31.2 per 100,000 people in France, vs. 61.5 per 100,000 in the U.S. That's not to say the French have solved all health-care riddles. Like every other nation, France is wrestling with runaway health-care inflation. That has led to some hefty tax hikes, and France is now considering U.S.-style health-maintenance organization tactics to rein in costs. Still, some 65% of French citizens express satisfaction with their system, compared with 40% of U.S. residents. And France spends just 10.7% of its gross domestic product on health care, while the U.S. lays out 16%, more than any other nation.

Then the premiums aren't enough, are they? And speaking of Medicare premiums, how much have Medicare costs gone up in the last decade? Now how much have Medicare taxes gone up the last decade?

The cost-increase trajectory exceeds any semblance of taxing our way out of the problem. You act as if the availability of taxable income is limitless AND that increasing taxes on productivity not only doesn't have an adverse reaction but that it actually encourages producers to expend even more capital investment.

But then you're back to financial disincentives to staying in good health.

Financial dis-incentives?

Are you serious?

It's very easy to rubber-stamp a high-priced exam or procedure (or a fricking IUD, for that matter) when a 3rd party is paying the bill. But, make health-transactions first-party and, all of a sudden, the consumer begins to question and challenge the necessity of such measures AND they make personal decisions on their own (the horror!).

HSA's are not unicorns and they certainly don't create Utopia - but they do FAR more toward curbing costs while simultaneously providing superior-care in a manner that single-pay can only have nocturnal-emissions about in terms of 'measurable outcome'.

Gee, how about if I just cite life expectancy and ignore American death rates, would that help you narrow those goalposts?

When you can tie homocide rates and traffic-fatality rates to the overall quality of a healthcare system...feel free.

You are suggesting Utopia.

The UK's system is a nightmare.

Canada's isn't much better.

No nation on this planet matches or exceeds our response-time or our quality-of-care when it matters most.

Now, before you go all apeshit, this reality does NOT mean that we should ignore cost-saving measures.

Fine.

Just don't sit there and pretend that a government monopoly is SO fucking benevalent that it not only provides "better measured results" but does so at a huge discount.

If you want to argue tradeoffs...fine.

That is a principled argument.

But this Utopianism that you are spouting is ridiculous.

"The cost-increase trajectory exceeds any semblance of taxing our way out of the problem."

Then it should be attacked from multiple directions. As it is, you're accepting the problems as they are and resigning yourself.

"Financial dis-incentives? Are you serious?"

Of course. If you've put $1500 into your HSA, you get to roll it over into a Medical IRA at retirement. There's a financial incentive to skip going to the doctor to save money.

"It's very easy to rubber-stamp a high-priced exam or procedure (or a fricking IUD, for that matter) when a 3rd party is paying the bill."

It's even easier to lose sight of the fact prevention is MUCH cheaper than cure.

"(HSAs) do FAR more toward curbing costs"

They've been in existence for over a decade, a time span where medical costs outpaced inflation 4-to-1 . Where's your proof HSAs have curbed costs?

"while simultaneously providing superior-care in a manner that single-pay can only have nocturnal-emissions about in terms of 'measurable outcome'."

Well now you're just desperately making shit up. The single payer programs use a lower % of GDP, and produce measurably better results. HSAs are meaningless to anyone who doesn't have one. while universal coverage helps everyone. Anything else is merely a hollow claim borne of ignorance.

:"When you can tie homocide rates and traffic-fatality rates to the overall quality of a healthcare system."

Why bother? You can't; it's just a monkey wrench to deflect away from facts you don't want to face.

"No nation on this planet matches or exceeds our response-time or our quality-of-care when it matters most."

Prove it.

Gee, how about if I just cite life expectancy and ignore American death rates, would that help you narrow those goalposts?

What would be illuminating would be for you to provide a cause/effect relationship between traffic-fatalitites and homocides with a single-pay system.

I am not narrowing the goalposts - you are. Unless you can articulate HOW homicide is realated to quality of health-care then you are pissing into the wind.

"Just don't sit there and pretend that a government monopoly is SO fucking benevalent that it not only provides "better measured results" but does so at a huge discount. "

Fine. Be an ostrich. Just do your own research, and don't ignore the truth when you find the answers. So far, all you've got is your unsourced opinion.

"What would be illuminating would be for you to provide a cause/effect relationship between traffic-fatalitites and homocides with a single-pay system."

Since you're so interested, knock yourself out. As it is, you're barfing stuff just to force others to do make-work.

"Unless you can articulate HOW homicide is realated to quality of health-care"

Sorry dude, your issue, not mine. If you want to make that argument, get some hard numbers to prove your point.

The onus of proof is on YOU, Danforth.

You are the one making pixie-dust claims that nationalized health-care is Utopia excepting the sickest of the sick.

Prove it - Let's break it down - mandated coverage, mandated costs, mandated compensation for services rendered....the BEST results imaginable AND at a fraction of true cost???

Danforth,

I have recently provided the citations that back up my assertions.

Sorry - I am not going to "jump" every time you create some imaginary hoop to hurdle.

Demanding "link" when it has been recently-provided is just lazy.

"The onus of proof is on YOU, Danforth."

Are you retarded? You're the one who claimed traffic fatalities and homicides skew the numbers. That would put the burden of proof squarely in your corner. I posted several measurable barometers where the US falls behind; so much for your bogus claim of being all "eyes".

"Prove it - Let's break it down - mandated coverage, mandated costs, mandated compensation for services rendered....the BEST results imaginable AND at a fraction of true cost???"

Ok, you are retarded. What part about "a lower % of their GDP, covering a higher % of their populace, and with better results" escaped you? All of it???

"I have recently provided the citations that back up my assertions."

On this thread? Where?

"I am not going to jump every time you create some imaginary hoop to hurdle. "

Too rich, coming from the guy who make the claim about homicides and traffic fatalities, and then told me to prove his claim.

I'm done with this; you're either drunk, stupid, or both.

I'm done with this; you're either drunk, stupid, or both

All of the above!

Too rich, coming from the guy who make the claim about homicides and traffic fatalities, and then told me to prove his claim.

They were provided within the last month. google it if you don't believe me - as you clearly don't.

Ok, you are retarded. What part about "a lower % of their GDP, covering a higher % of their populace, and with better results" escaped you? All of it???

Better results?

Yep! It's Utopia! lower costs, better coverage AND better results?!?

It's UTOPIA!

-Danforth

Horseshit. The first talk of entitlement was when we finally saw the SS surpluses were going the way of the dodo. Even now it's only viewed as money going out, and everyone ignores the constant stream of payroll taxes coming in to offset most of the outflow.

Horseshit. That's your opinion. Have any proof for that?

"At the time, it could no longer be taken away"
Have you got any proof for that?

It's never been completely taken away, that's my proof.

Greece is a model of corruption, if nothing else. It's common knowledge everyone bribes to get service.

Nice Danfuck. This is your defense of this system? Corruption in the liberal ruling political class. God knows Pelosi and Reid aren't corrupt are they?!?!? God knows that the Barney Fwankster and his whore-house in Boston wasn't corrupt. God knows that Chris Dodd wasn't taking kickbacks from Countrywide was he?!? Let's just give them more power, more authority, control over healthcare, control over spending, over individual behavior and personal welfare.

Greece is corrupt.
Say it ain't so.

"This is your defense of this system?"

Not at all. It's a call for dealing with reality. Anyone who looks at Greece and doesn't acknowledge the facts on the ground is an uninformed idiot.

"God knows that the Barney Fwankster and his whore-house in Boston wasn't corrupt. God knows that Chris Dodd wasn't taking kickbacks from Countrywide was he?"

Deflect much?

BTW, speaking of uninformed idiots, anyone who blames Chris Dodd while ignoring the Lehmans of the world leveraging bad paper against bad paper at unprecedented ratios might as well just hang an "I'm Clueless" sign around his neck.

"Corruption in the liberal ruling political class."

Nope. Corruption everywhere, including old ladies bribing doctors to get bumped up in line.

Stay stupid!

Not at all. It's a call for dealing with reality. Anyone who looks at Greece and doesn't acknowledge the facts on the ground is an uninformed idiot.

Dealing with reality? That's a first for you isn't it?

anyone who blames Chris Dodd while ignoring the Lehmans of the world leveraging bad paper against bad paper at unprecedented ratios might as well just hang an "I'm Clueless" sign around his neck.

So here we go again. Corruption with the wonderful Democrats is not a problem. Never was. Never will be. It's ok to grant them more authority and control over individual lives. However, Corruption in Greece is a horrible practice that bankrupted the country.

Nice try again Danfuck. Face it. The Greeks are your ideological people. They are exactly the same as you and the liberal Democrats in the USA. They've gone unchecked for years. No Repubs, No Tea Party, No George Bushopolous. They're policies have driven the country over the edge in the same way that Obummer is doing here.

Keep deflecting and denying and deflecting some more. If you do it enough, perhaps you'll get noticed by the Young Turks and land that fantasy anchormam job you've dreamed about.

"So here we go again. Corruption with the wonderful Democrats is not a problem."

I've never made that statement or even suggested it. You're flailing.

"However, Corruption in Greece is a horrible practice that bankrupted the country. "

You're completely ignoring the underground economy. If no doctor makes more than $20,000 over the table, your tax base has withered away.

"Face it. The Greeks are your ideological people"

Face it: you're so clueless you've got nothing but lies and stupidity.

"They're policies have driven the country over the edge in the same way that Obummer is doing here."

Just to see if you're tethered to reality, who was it who made the conscious choice to alter our sights from surplus budget projectons to deficits as far as the eye could see?

You're completely ignoring the underground economy. If no doctor makes more than $20,000 over the table, your tax base has withered away.

Oh, so you mean confiscatory tax policies have consequences?!?!?!
Apparently not here! According to you, all we have to do is raise taxes on the rich until the budget is balanced and we can start overspending some more. Since the rich American 1%ers don't change their behavior like the Greeks, we can just ratchet up the confiscation and keep going to our liberal hearts content.
We don't have to worry about an underground economy do we?

"Face it. The Greeks are your ideological people"
Face it: you're so clueless you've got nothing but lies and stupidity.
Sure. Lies. It's hilarious how fast you run from your leftist failures when they fall out of the sky and land on your head. Distract and Denial. It suits you well.

Just to see if you're tethered to reality, who was it who made the conscious choice to alter our sights from surplus budget projectons to deficits as far as the eye could see?
Bush kicked the can out the door and into the driveway. Obummer kicked it into the next state and is still kicking it. So in addition to Greece, you're trying to run from him too? How long before you join the Tea Party Danfuck? They seem to be the only ones advocating your sense of renewed fiscal responsibility. I didn't realize you all were brothers in spirit.

The libtards are just confused -- Obama is always talking about "investing" so perhaps they think what the zero is doing actually is investing.

Obama is taxing and spending, he is also redistributing. He does not expect a return, except your vote. He is using other peoples money -- so he does not concern himself with returns. Solyndra anyone?

If we all invested sans profit -- I wonder what Obama would seize in taxes? Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. Always liked that song.

Obama is always talking about "investing" so perhaps they think what the zero is doing actually is investing.

And his ideological brethren on the DR are bashing the rich for not 'investing' in Greece. I suppose 47% of the people in this country that don't pay federal income tax aren't 'investing' in America.

Double-speak bullshit.

"I suppose 47% of the people in this country that don't pay federal income tax aren't 'investing' in America."

Why do you pretend your income taxes are more valuable than, say, the OTR trucker's gasoline taxes?

Why do you pretend your income taxes are more valuable than, say, the OTR trucker's gasoline taxes?

Because mine aren't refunded.

To clarify.

If an OTR trucker is hired by a company to drive for a salary, the company pays the cost of the gas and refunds the trucker, or just does it on a company paycard. Eventually, the cost is then past to the consumer - me.

If the trucker is independednt, his gas costs are deducted as a business expense and removed from his taxabale income or profit. In which case, it isn't refunded, it is just deducted from his/her income.

The (federal) gas tax is supposed to be a user fee to fund the federal highway budget. It isn't suppose to go to supporting the welfare state, although it may very well given the way the Democrats manage the budget, or lack there-of.

Either way, it isn't counted as federal income tax, which I clearly stated in the earlier post. The person that reads for you must have missed that detail.

"Because mine aren't refunded."

They can be, unlike the OTR truckers.

"If an OTR trucker is hired by a company to drive for a salary"

This guy is an independent.

"If the trucker is independednt, his gas costs are deducted as a business expense and removed from his taxabale income or profit."

That doesn't mean he didn't pay the taxes.

"The (federal) gas tax is supposed to be a user fee to fund the federal highway budget."

But in reality, it's a federal tax tossed into the big pot.

"Either way, it isn't counted as federal income tax, which I clearly stated in the earlier post."

I know, that's why I brought up the question, which you still haven't answered. The moron in your mirror must have missed that detail.

Why do you pretend your income taxes are more valuable than, say, the OTR trucker's gasoline taxes?

They're not more valuable.
They're just not (supposed to be) funding the welfare state.

Why do you pretend your balls are larger than your wife's?

All income, be it earned by hard labor, foreign, carried interest, IRA withdrawals, CD interest, corrupt municipal authority contrived muni bond interest, dividends, cap gains, should be considered income and all taxed the same as income.

Income is income and it all should be taxed the same.

"Income is income and it all should be taxed the same."

#147 | Posted by Robson at 2012-02-14 07:49 PM

Needed repeating.

Obama is spending money he does not have.
Is anybody still arguing that point ?

To much money is being spent with zero results.

All the BS on how the money is counted or accounted for tells you its all a F--king lie.

When Obama comes on the T.V. and says:

"We as a country make this much and I has your President am spending this much and the difference between the two is Negative this much"

And:

There are X amount of working age Americans and X amount are out of work and that means that near 19 to 26% of working age Americans are OUT OF WORK.

Then and only then will I listen to what he has to say.

Because right now the numbers say one thing and hes saying another.

This BS about .2% in unemployment means nothing you F--king boobs.
Why do you think it does ? Can you not do percentages ?
Try it for yourself, see if your numbers match Obama's numbers.

Obama and his group do not have f--king clue whats going on and every time he puts something to paper instead of just promises it fails miserably.
Every time with out exception he has failed.

One last thing for you who depend on the Govt for your existence.
When Obama collapses the economy, guess who will feel it first.

....NOPE IN NOVEMBER....

#149 | Posted by MENSAKOOK

Hey, kook. Bush and the GOP Congress managed a $600,000,000 a year deficit swing their first two years. They kept creeping up year after year without a peep from Republicans. When a handful of Republicans attempted to stand by 'Republican principles' in opposition to the unfunded status of Medicare Part D, Delay kept the vote open and strong armed them into voting for it. Literally. With guards at the doors of the House floor to keep them from leaving. Threatened them.

The Bush tax cuts. The Iraq War. On and on the list goes as to why we're running deficits now.

Santorum, in 2003, said "ya, I spent the surpluses. Made it easier to say no." (sic). Huh?

And so it went until we had systemic deficits for perhaps decades, when we could have paid off the debt.

Instead, we're paying $750,000,000,000 a year JUST to service the debt the GOP piled up. Doubled defense spending, Medicare Part D, the Bush tax cuts, the recession account for the rest.

The Republican meme about Obama spending is bullshit. They more than doubled the debt and nearly doubled the budget all by themselves.

That's if you care anything about facts and not meaningless false memes.

Bush and the GOP Congress managed a $600,000,000,000 a year deficit swing their first two years

Bush and the GOP Congress managed a $600,000,000,000 a year deficit swing their first two years

#151 | POSTED BY AMERICANUNITY AT 2012-02-15 12:53 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Due to the loss of revenue that occurred when Clinton's 'tech' bubble blew its dippy wad all over America. Bush inherited the entire Enron Arthur Anderson fiasco.

"Due to the loss of revenue that occurred when Clinton's 'tech' bubble blew its dippy wad all over America. "

Bullshit. It was the Bush tax cuts which dropped government revenue. Pick up a history book, for God's sake.

Bullshit. It was the Bush tax cuts which dropped government revenue. Pick up a history book, for God's sake.

#153 | Posted by Danforth

And spending went up by $300,000,000,000 in Bush's first 2 budgets.

Was there a peep from Republicans? Not that I can recall

Not only was 2009's budget (Bush's last) $1.2 Trillion more than Clinton's last, it also ran a $1.4 trillion deficit.

Including the SURPLUS Clinton's last budget ran, that's an increase of nearly $3 TRILLION dollars a YEAR from the budget Bush inherited.

2009 United States federal budget - $3.1 trillion (submitted 2008 by President Bush)
2008 United States federal budget - $2.9 trillion (submitted 2007 by President Bush)
2007 United States federal budget - $2.8 trillion (submitted 2006 by President Bush)
2006 United States federal budget - $2.7 trillion (submitted 2005 by President Bush)
2005 United States federal budget - $2.4 trillion (submitted 2004 by President Bush)
2004 United States federal budget - $2.3 trillion (submitted 2003 by President Bush)
2003 United States federal budget - $2.2 trillion (submitted 2002 by President Bush)
2002 United States federal budget - $2.0 trillion (submitted 2001 by President Bush)

Republicans just can't face the truth. Obama had nothing to do with that massive increase in spending - $3 trillion a year from Clinton's last budget to Bush's last, with deficits increasing every single year. Republicans let out a peep until Obama took office? Not.

Ya, we know you don't want to hear it. But those are the facts.

No fuckface. You pick up a history book and check out the fucking vapor lock that occurred in TAXREVENUE that occurred post Enron collapse.

"You pick up a history book and check out the fucking vapor lock that occurred in TAXREVENUE that occurred post Enron collapse."

I experienced it first-hand as a 27-yr tax professional. Dubya slashed taxes. Where were you?

And you're actually pretending ENRON was responsible for the drop in tax revenue? Can you taste the stupid when you post dumb shit like that?

I experienced it first-hand as a 27-yr tax professional. Dubya slashed taxes. Where were you?

And you're actually pretending ENRON was responsible for the drop in tax revenue? Can you taste the stupid when you post dumb shit like that?

#156 | Posted by Danforth

Sucking his thumb, I suspect.

He can't understand simple math.

I pointed out Bush's last budget was actually $1.3 trillion more than Clinton's last AND ran a $1.4 trillion DEFICIT. Nearly a $3 trillion dollar rise in spending a YEAR from Clinton's last.

"Fuckface" is the apex of his debating abilities. Can't dispute facts, so engage in juvenile rock throwing. Proof again the study evidencing lower IQ's lean conservative is spot on.

And all you fuckers have done is slam Bush for doing in the collapse of 2002 EXACTLY what Obama has done on a yearly basis since he took office. Completely eclipsing and surpassing the yearly debt totals that your pissing and moaning about Bush for.

Hypocritical fuckface.

And yea Bush cut taxes. As a36 year old project manager raising 2 kids and, despite the mortgage and trying to save up for my kids college, I fell into the very bottom rung of the federal governments 'wealthy' classification, I was really thankful for those tax cuts.

So eat shit taxman.

Hey genius! Tell me all about Obamas yearly deficits since he took office.

Sucking my thumb?

Come here, I got something you can suck on