Interesting article, Boaz. I have a feeling that people here won't get through the article before they make an assumption about its conclusion.

This line caught my attention:

"Changing life in the SuperZIPs requires that members of the new upper class rethink their priorities. Here are some propositions that might guide them: Life sequestered from anybody not like yourself tends to be self-limiting. Places to live in which the people around you have no problems that need cooperative solutions tend to be sterile. America outside the enclaves of the new upper class is still a wonderful place, filled with smart, interesting, entertaining people. If you're not part of that America, you've stripped yourself of much of what makes being American special."

It happens here in NYC but I don't kid myself that it isn't largely because of our size limitations; you can only move up, you can't really move out. I sincerely doubt that anybody of means, no matter the political persuasion, will seriously entertain the idea that reversing white flight would be good for the country. I'd love to be proven wrong on this point.

Pretty much validates what some of us have been posting for some time---but some others don't want to hear.

"When Americans used to brag about "the American way of life"â€"a phrase still in common use in 1960â€"they were talking about a civic culture that swept an extremely large proportion of Americans of all classes into its embrace. It was a culture encompassing shared experiences of daily life and shared assumptions about central American values involving marriage, honesty, hard work and religiosity."

"On just about any measure of development you can think of, children who are born to unmarried women fare worse than the children of divorce and far worse than children raised in intact families. This unwelcome reality persists even after controlling for the income and education of the parents."

"Industriousness: The norms for work and women were revolutionized after 1960, but the norm for men putatively has remained the same: Healthy men are supposed to work. In practice, though, that norm has eroded everywhere."

"Religiosity: Whatever your personal religious views, you need to realize that about half of American philanthropy, volunteering and associational memberships is directly church-related, and that religious Americans also account for much more nonreligious social capital than their secular neighbors. In that context, it is worrisome for the culture that the U.S. as a whole has become markedly more secular since 1960,"

Interesting article in describing the problem, but way off the mark on the cause.

FTA

"As I've argued in much of my previous work, I think that the reforms of the 1960s jump-started the deterioration. Changes in social policy during the 1960s made it economically more feasible to have a child without having a husband if you were a woman or to get along without a job if you were a man; safer to commit crimes without suffering consequences; and easier to let the government deal with problems in your community that you and your neighbors formerly had to take care of."

Changes in social policies arose from the MASSIVE injustices against african americans, which directly lead to the womem's rights movement. If we suppose these are the roots of our problems today, one must assume that rewinding these cultural movements would in some manner be a solution. Of course, that is simply impossible.

yes women were given freedom to have children without a husband, but women were also able to fully experience life, not being stuck in antiquated social roles. Living without a job is all fine and dandy, but does not address problems such as those that were seen during the great depression, times when jobs were simply non-existant and people literally starved to death.

I would strongly disagree that our country has moved towards a point where crimes are committed without penalty being our nation has such a high incarceration rate.

"When Americans used to brag about "the American way of life"â€"a phrase still in common use in 1960â€"they were talking about a civic culture that swept an extremely large proportion of Americans of all classes into its embrace. It was a culture encompassing shared experiences of daily life and shared assumptions about central American values involving marriage, honesty, hard work and religiosity."

#3 | Posted by matsop

And what has caused the death of that civil value?

I would say Viet nam, Watergate, Clinton's persecution, Iraq, the WoT and the MIC more so than the social engineering done by Johnson's Great Society. We have become a nation of cynics, questioning and disbelieving in traditional institutions that have continuously let us down.

"Interesting article in describing the problem, but way off the mark on the cause."

That's what I was thinking. There were a lot of jumps of logic, but even then, he did include the disclaimer that why we're here is irrelevant to how we move on from here. I thought that was an important point that was backed up by his suggestion that upper-middle and upper classes are going to have to take the lead in bringing about change. Most stop at diagnosing the cause of the problem, using it as justification for avoiding responsibility for dealing with it in anything but the most severe fashions.

There were a lot of jumps of logic

Calling it "logic" would be generous.

It's the same feeble, scatterbrained drivel the conservative culture warriors have been spouting for years.

The author may have accurately identified a few problems in our society - progress for the all-too-often delusional conservative - but his achievements stop there. He makes an absolute fool of himself when he makes baseless claims of causation.

The author may have accurately identified a few problems in our society - progress for the all-too-often delusional conservative - but his achievements stop there. He makes an absolute fool of himself when he makes baseless claims of causation.
#10 | Posted by Dr_Icepick

I agree, Zombie, that part wasn't useful, repetitious at best, but I think there is still a little meat left in there after the partisan fat is trimmed away. His suggested remedy is something I don't expect to hear from his camp, and as far as that goes, this article is not insignificant.

Fair enough.

Just some of the comments concerning this article are emblematic of the trouble we're in and how difficult it'll be to ever again have a society of some absolute values that give us stability. The enemy is among us and doesn't have a clue.

"The enemy is among us and doesn't have a clue."

It's a little early in the morning for you to be so insulting, Matsop. Especially on a Sunday. Care to explain what you're talking about?

It's a hallmark of delusional behavior. You can start with a baseline labeled "paranoia" and work on out from there.

I don't know if you've noticed it, but a lot of these riiighties have been melting down noticeably the past few weeks. They were riding pretty high for a while, convincing themselves what a cakewalk it was going to be for them in November. But now that not only the presidency but possibly the Senate and even the House appear headed any way but their way, well, they're not taking it well.

That's what happens when you live within a Manichean paradigm; it's impossible to understand how people can't go along with them, unless they're evil ("enemies"). They're actually remarkably like the Iranian judges who find people guilty of "corruption on earth" and "opposing God's messengers on earth."

Just some of the comments concerning this article are emblematic of the trouble we're in and how difficult it'll be to ever again have a society of some absolute values that give us stability. The enemy is among us and doesn't have a clue.
#13 | Posted by matsop at 2012-01-22 08:10 AM | Reply | Flag: NUTTER

It's a hallmark of delusional behavior. You can start with a baseline labeled "paranoia" and work on out from there.
#15 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's my thing. Or a compulsion. Depending on results.

"It's my thing."

So I've noticed. And a damn good trait it is. In real life, I tend as well. But here? Not a chance.

But here? Not a chance.
#19 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

I've always started from a position where I wanted to see if, at minimum, a poster's argument was internally consistent, supportable by its own assumptions. At least then I could respect the position even if I took issue with the premises. The frustrating thing is that it's not always obvious what I'm doing, and failure to attack premises is seen as advocacy. You're right, maybe it's not the most useful tack to take here, but it would be a hard habit to break after.... good god, the better part of the last 8 years here.

Clinton's persecution.

#8 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS AT 2012-01-21 10:59 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Are you fucking kidding?

Dork

4 year investigation over a blowjob? yes persecutin comes to mind

I suppose it is a great step forward that a rightie even acknowledges a gap in america

of course the proper way to look at it is why the economic, military, cultural and political evolution has destroyed the fairmount zipcode and done nothing to the belmont zip code

America is going broke too. A nation that runs on debt cannot stand.

#8 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

Are you fucking kidding?
Dork
#21 | Posted by glasshouse

Are you fucking drunk?
Again?

"The enemy is among us and doesn't have a clue."

It's a little early in the morning for you to be so insulting, Matsop. Especially on a Sunday. Care to explain what you're talking about?

#14 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2012-01-22 09:49 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

#15 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2012-01-22 09:53 AM | Reply

If the shoe fits...........

If the shoe fits...........
#26 | Posted by matsop

Try removing it from your fat, psychotic ass.

Typical that a self-hating Negro like Bo-ass thinks Charles Murray is a cultural icon. You're at the left end of the Bell Curve, douche.

America is going broke too. A nation that runs on debt cannot stand.

#24 | Posted by Ray at 2012-01-22 06:56 PM | Reply

America is going broke in more ways then one and it's not just financially, Ray. It's basically, morally, and that's where all ills begin. The author in his obtuse way almost gets there with his point on "religiousity". The culture is so screwed up now there probably is no way back. The author does get it right by noting the beginning of the decline in the 60s. But then again, maybe it's not a bad thing since eventually we'll implode and the chance for a new beginning might occur.

#29 | Posted by matsop at 2012-01-22 07:12 PM | Reply | Flag: Needs A Hankie

If the shoe fits...........
#26 | Posted by matsop

Try removing it from your fat, psychotic ass.

#27 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2012-01-22 07:08 PM | Reply

My, my, Doc, are we a little sensitive tonight? A little bit of truth for a sensitive "lefty"?

Actually, I find your meltdown pretty interesting. Hopefully, people who know you will consider an intervention before you go completely bonkers.

Restore the currency to being backed by something other than debt and you will increase the purchasing power of the poorest in this country and you will limit the salaries of the highest earners because the money supply would no longer be infinite.

Destruction of the purchasing power of our money is what has destroyed our way of life. All these other issues stem from the debasement of our currency.

"America is going broke in more ways then one and it's not just financially, Ray. It's basically, morally, and that's where all ills begin."

Haha

yeah we were much more moral country when we had segregation, rampant anti-semitism, censorship, our nation could lie us into wars, women were second class citizens.

hey dummy, america was far less moral unless you were the priveledged white male

It's basically, morally, and that's where all ills begin.
#29 | POSTED BY MATSOP

To Libs prosperity = plunder
To Neocons war = peace

The levels of debt are rising like pressure in a steam boiler that has red lined. These people have their heads in the asses.

Actually, I find your meltdown pretty interesting. Hopefully, people who know you will consider an intervention before you go completely bonkers.

#32 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2012-01-22 07:16 PM | Reply |

Actually, people that know me congratulate me on my prescience for what has happened over the last few years. But then again, unfortunately, I can't help those who are like "deer in the headlights". Time will once again prove me pretty much right on. But then again, you along with others, will continue to point the finger at others as the house burns down around you.

hey dummy, america was far less moral unless you were the priveledged white male
#34 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

Hey dummy. Government plunder, waste and fraud has undermined the market economy that supports is. It's a long way down Wile E. Coyote.

hey dummy, america was far less moral unless you were the priveledged white male

#34 | Posted by truthhurts at 2012-01-22 07:18 PM | Reply

Hey dummy, you might read the article. No wonder there's no help for you in the lockdown in your ward.

Actually, people that know me congratulate me on my prescience for what has happened over the last few years....
#36 | Posted by matsop

You sound like a character in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

But if it helps you feel any better about yourself, please, continue bloviating about how spot-on you are; it's a common trait among the delusional, so you have plenty of company.

no dummy the article is selective on what it considers moral.

i have posted several examples on how this dream time written about was NOT moral, try keeping up

Hey dummy. Government plunder, waste and fraud has undermined the market economy that supports is. It's a long way down Wile E. Coyote.

#37 | Posted by Ray

except the corporate raiders and offshoring of jobs has far surpassed your causes

Twain was pretty much correct when he said that history doesn't always repeat itself but it certainly rhymes. That's because you have folks like starveus and truthshirks who never learn from history. Doc may have a PHD in how to raise "fighting cocks" in your basement but you don't earn commonsense through PHDs.

4 year investigation over a blowjob?

I thought the investigation was over perjury? Still, four years is a long time.

Why does the left always refer to Clinton's being prosecuted for a blowjob? Even though they keep getting corrrected and being told it was about perjury, they won't use that word. It's always the inaccurate "blow job".

Twain was pretty much correct when he said that history doesn't always repeat itself but it certainly rhymes. That's because you have folks like starveus and truthshirks who never learn from history. Doc may have a PHD in how to raise "fighting cocks" in your basement but you don't earn commonsense through PHDs.

#42 | Posted by matsop

I know you wont answer my question, but what was so moral about the segregation and racism that lead to the cultural revolution of the 60's

Why does the left always refer to Clinton's being prosecuted for a blowjob? Even though they keep getting corrrected and being told it was about perjury, they won't use that word. It's always the inaccurate "blow job".

#43 | Posted by goatman

hahaha, kind of like the civil war was about state's rights

the state's right to have slaves

so yes the civil war was about slavery

the perjury was about a blowjob

so yes the investigation was about a blowjob

But if it helps you feel any better about yourself, please, continue bloviating about how spot-on you are; it's a common trait among the delusional, so you have plenty of company.
#39 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

That's easy to say when you are totally clueless. It' probably asking too much to think you can read a chart. But for the hell of it.

except the corporate raiders and offshoring of jobs has far surpassed your causes
#41 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

That's a symptom of a corporate owned government. That's what you get for voting for their stooges.

You sound like a character in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

#39 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2012-01-22 07:29 PM | Reply

I flew over your nest and it appears the thorazin and mellaril aren't working:

#42 | Posted by matsop

I know you wont answer my question, but what was so moral about the segregation and racism that lead to the cultural revolution of the 60's

#44 | Posted by truthhurts at 2012-01-22 07:36 PM | Reply

I believe the article doesn't really address those situations extensively. It just goes to show me you don't have a clue what the author is trying to inculcate into your vacuous cerebrum.

You sound like a character in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
#39 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2012-01-22 07:29 PM | Reply

Mat

Doc has a knack for stupid ad hominems. I get bored arguing with him when he does that.

Would have been a better article if he hadn't written the conclusions first. Then again, coming from the AEI, it was a given that it would somehow be a liberal fault.

What the article slides around is why the disparity expanded. According to Murray, the under-class discovered fornication and the whole group went to hell in the process. Belmont girls apparently went to church every week and all were virgins on their wedding night. he doesn't go into the issues of Belmont pre-marital pregnancies. Of course Belmont girls could easily get an abortion or birth control from one of their friendly neighbor doctors, or go away with "rheumatic fever" for 9 months.

Economically, what happened in the 60s? Imports happened. The belmont people, God bless them, started outsourcing cars, radios, just about everything that they could, because it increased their bottom line. The 60s were also the introduction of production line automation and business computers. when Murray talks about those superzipcodes around DC, who does he think loves in them? hey are full of consultants, lobbyists and political deterius that lives off of the governing class. None of which are "productive" in the sense that a doctor or a a assembly line worker is. The income gap has exploded as Fishtown's economic base went to China and parttime, definitely non-union jobs became the norm. Wages stagnated, and have never come back, certainly not in comparison to the growth in the CEO class.

Murray may actually believe that the Fishtowners, seeing the Belmonters condescending to drive by in their Jags and Benzes will make them suddenly find those mythical,higher paying jobs and working 60 hours a week, but you know, and I know, that just ain't happening. And certainly 1%ers like Newt and Ken Lay aren't really much of a moral comparitor, are they?

This isn't just an American issue. Just take a look at China. Or the ME. Or any of the studies that show upward mobility is more related to where you start than what you know or can do. and before anybody bitches about the boomers, the belmonters would have been members of the "greatest generation" or their parents, until the 1990s, anyways.

The supreme irony is, after fighting a revolution to get out from under the thumb of British aristocracy, America is creating its own aristocracy while the British aristocracy has become a corpse, consisting of unsellable rural money-pit estates and useless titles.

hahaha, kind of like the civil war was about state's rights

???

so yes the investigation was about a blowjob

Link?

Slavery and blowjobs. Yep, I see the connection. LOL

I believe the article doesn't really address those situations extensively. It just goes to show me you don't have a clue what the author is trying to inculcate into your vacuous cerebrum.

#49 | Posted by matsop

you cant be this thick can you?

the author was using the early 60's as a baseline for a series of measures showing a cultrual disparity existing today. He was using a set of matrices to show a breakdown of certain cultural functions. I am pointing out that he was selective in his matrices and he ignores in his causality the value of the cultural revolutions that spurred the changes. That is intellectually dishonest. He ignores the inestimable GOOD that resulted from those cultural revolutions

so yes the investigation was about a blowjob

Link?

Slavery and blowjobs. Yep, I see the connection. LOL

#52 | Posted by goatman

come on goatcheese, its not so difficult

political issues

apparent cause-perjury, state's rights

true underlying cause-perjury was over a blowjob, state's rights was over slavery

Destruction of the purchasing power of our money is what has destroyed our way of life.

Nonsense. If you assume everyone shared the same "way of life" in 1960, then inflation would affect everybody in the same way.
###

It's basically, morally, and that's where all ills begin. The author in his obtuse way almost gets there with his point on "religiousity". The culture is so screwed up now there probably is no way back.

Matsop- can you think of anything more immoral than segregation, lynching and the subjugation of women? I'm pretty sure all the guys in DC who thought bombing VN back to the stone-age was a great idea went to church.

Most Islamic cultures are highly religious. You like any of them? Righties whine about the decline of the power of the church (actually only the particular one they belong to)to control people's lives yet America remains one of the most (nominally, at least) religious nations in the west. Is Australia on the edge of moral collapse? Canada? Scotland?

Nope. Then again, you never hear of a Scotsman walking away from everything he owns because some crazy old fart says the world is (maybe, somehow) coming to an end.

As for the moral decline of America-it happened when the Italians were let in, when the jews were let in, during the roaring twenties, when Elvis danced, when a Catholic was elected President, when people burned their draft cards, when women burned their bras, when blacks didn't have to ride in the back of the bus and when Clinton got elected. Oh yeah, when Obama got elected, too.

You really need to find a guiding principle that doesn't hang on a fairy tale. As for me, I believe in the goodness of elves and the evilness of orcs. That, and Vulcan wisdom.

The supreme irony is, after fighting a revolution to get out from under the thumb of British aristocracy, America is creating its own aristocracy

#51 | Posted by northguy3 at 2012-01-22 07:48 PM | Reply

Every once in awhile, southguy puts down his bong and has a moment of clarity. Not only have we developed our own aristocracy but it's a secular aristocracy that doubles down on the issue. I know secularists have a difficult time understanding it but any society that desires a culture that is caring and stable demands some form of absolutes from which to work from. Otherwise you have relative values and "anything goes"---that's been a big part of our demise. If the banksters had any concern for their fellow man, they would have at least thought about the golden rule for a nano-second instead of coming from a secular reference of "I want mine".

Now I'll try to educate "Truthshirks" a little and answer his question as it relates to his simplistic thoughts of "racism" and "segregation". Of course, in the ultimate essence of morality, racism and segregation was and is a scourge. The rights movements of the 60s were a necessity and proper. The problem is that they were never turned off and took on a life of their own. That life along with the rise of secularism ultimately shoves absolute values in the background and it becomes every man/woman for themselves into a relative framework. And this then moves us into the culture the author so eloquently outlines.

And because of this, we're ultimately not screwed because of our debt issues; we're ultimately screwed because of our secularism and culture change we've experienced since the 60s. I know "cocker" mocks me for it but I saw this coming over the years as this nation started to decompensate. Our debt and financial problems are only symptomatic of a bigger underlying problem/cause and if you don't understand what after what I posted then nobody will be able to help you.

As for the moral decline of America-it happened when the Italians were let in, when the jews were let in, during the roaring twenties, when Elvis danced, when a Catholic was elected President, when people burned their draft cards, when women burned their bras, when blacks didn't have to ride in the back of the bus and when Clinton got elected. Oh yeah, when Obama got elected, too.

Who could argue with logic like that. The fog is too dense.

Slavery and blowjobs. Yep, I see the connection. LOL

#52 | Posted by goatman

Better link than a blowjob and hillary's cattle buying. Or any one of the 123 things Ken Starr was paid 40 million to investigate.

If the banksters had any concern for their fellow man, they would have at least thought about the golden rule for a nano-second instead of coming from a secular reference of "I want mine".

Matty, matty matty, are you really so naive?

Do you think lootaucracies never existed before 1960? Or not in religious groups? Do you need reminding that some of the south's biggest racists were the white preachers? Or that your church teaches that wealth is a sign of God's love?

Seems to me it was the evangelical SC folk who were booing the golden rule when Ron Paul mentioned it.

You really should study up on the Borgias, theGilded Age, or the robber barons before waving your Bible in the air, and claiming "I have America's savior".

Who could argue with logic like that. The fog is too dense.

#57 | Posted by Ray

it's just the sheen of all that gold, Ray. People have been predicting the moral collapse of America for decades. I'm pretty sure the natives, watching the Pilgrims land on the beach were saying, "we're morally doomed".

#28 | Posted by LetUsPrey at 2012-01-22 07:09 PM | Reply | Flag: NO CLASS. NONE.

Put another way, WELL SHIT.

Matty, matty matty, are you really so naive?

Do you think lootaucracies never existed before 1960? Or not in religious groups? Do you need reminding that some of the south's biggest racists were the white preachers? Or that your church teaches that wealth is a sign of God's love?

#59 | Posted by northguy3 at 2012-01-22 08:24 PM | Reply

Hardly, southguy, hardly. What I'm talking about transcends secularists, self-serving religions, etc. It goes down to a basic spirituality (which you probably will never understand) that puts self-interest on the same plane as interest in others. At least before the 60s in the "religions" that existed there was subtle cultural/community pressure that demanded looking out for your community. Because of the loosening of self-interest in the 60s and the breakdown of institutions we morphed into an increasing self-interest and selfish society. The irony is that it then demands a bigger role of government since you had increasing breakdown of families, etc.

it's just the sheen of all that gold, Ray. People have been predicting the moral collapse of America for decades. I'm pretty sure the natives, watching the Pilgrims land on the beach were saying, "we're morally doomed".
#60 | POSTED BY NORTHGUY3

This quote is attributed to Cicero who was about 400 years ahead of his time:
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public
debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered
and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed
lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of
living on public assistance." Cicero , 55 BC

Once a nation takes that path, the timing may be uncertain, but not the outcome. Gold and silver have multiplied five times in ten years while real estate, stocks and bonds have languished. Opportunities always await for those who see the folly of mass delusion.

Charles Murray who co-authored "The Bell Curve" restates his thesis that the new upper class is not based on family inheritance but on IQ and the process of getting into top colleges and professions grinds finer and finer and he talks about the isolation, consolidation and cultural divergvance at the top because of this process.

Here's a chart of Weimer Inflation. It looks similar to federal debt I posted in #64.

"You're like the guy who fell out of a hundred story building, who at the 90th floor, thought nothing was going to happen."

Whereas you're the guy who's been wearing a THE END IS NEAR sandwich board for 6 years.

You're like the guy who fell out of a hundred story building, who at the 90th floor, thought nothing was going to happen.

#66 | Posted by Ray at 2012-01-22 09:03 PM | Reply |

Actually, Dan is like most lefties who when hitting the ground still thought nothing was going to happen. Then they continue to praise (Obama) the guy who gave them the shove off the edge.

Pure propaganda designed to make you think the great change in America economics occurred in the 1960's instead of the 1980's. Big difference. Charles Murray is a tool from the American Enterprise Institute.

Whereas you're the guy who's been wearing a THE END IS NEAR sandwich board for 6 years.
#67 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

The bullshit if flying tonight.

"Charles Murray who co-authored "The Bell Curve" restates his thesis that the new upper class is not based on family inheritance but on IQ and the process of getting into top colleges and professions grinds finer and finer and he talks about the isolation, consolidation and cultural divergvance at the top because of this process."

In other words the rich are rich because they deserve to be rich and the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor. He's a paid propagandist who writes things to justify the wealth of folks like the Koch brothers. Fuck him.

"The bullshit if flying tonight."

"If"? I doubt it.

You even set a deadline which has come and gone. Have you got a new, improved date of disaster, Ray Campion?

Charles Murray who co-authored "The Bell Curve" restates his thesis that the new upper class is not based on family inheritance but on IQ and the process of getting into top colleges and professions grinds finer and finer and he talks about the isolation, consolidation and cultural divergvance at the top because of this process.

#65 | Posted by fwthom at 2012-01-22 08:57 PM | Reply |

This is not a good situation since as he states "children who are born to unmarried women fare worse than the children of divorce and far worse than children raised in intact families. This unwelcome reality persists even after controlling for the income and education of the parent."
I know southguy, hollyforth, starveus, and truthshirks don't like to hear this but this is due to the breakdown of the family that began in the 60s and is essentially a moral issue.

Whereas you're the guy who's been wearing a THE END IS NEAR sandwich board for 6 years.
#67 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

I'm glad you aren't managing MY money.

"If"? I doubt it.

Typo

"I'm glad you aren't managing MY money."

Me too.

Are you going to pretend you haven't been predicting imminent demise since 2005?

In other words the rich are rich because they deserve to be rich and the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor. He's a paid propagandist who writes things to justify the wealth of folks like the Koch brothers. Fuck him.

#71 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-22 09:15 PM | Reply

Another ignoramus heard from----I don't think Murray made such a statement. Maybe you should read the article before going off on one of your patented verbal barrages of stupidity.

In other words the rich are rich because they deserve to be rich and the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor.

#71 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-22 09:15 PM | Reply

No, the poor are poor because the lefties of the demoratic party put them into a welfare system they'll never recover from----ala Bob Beckel.

You even set a deadline which has come and gone. Have you got a new, improved date of disaster, Ray Campion?
#72 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

WTF are you talking about? I gave up trying to predict timing years ago. I posted two charts in #64 and #66. If they mean nothing to you, you have your head up your ass.

"When Charles A. Murray '65 spoke at the Institute of Politics last week, he demonstrated why his brand of racism is so subtle and so dangerous. He has tried to disguise as an academic work and has attempted to hide his pseudoscientific musings, tainted sources, lies and distortions behind a mountain of legitimate facts and statistics. But the tremendous amount of criticism of The Bell Curve that has recently been published has completely debunked this flawed book. In fact, even a cursory study of The Bell Curve and its criticism proves that Murray's work is intentionally deceitful, and that he has purposely tried to advance racism as serious scholarship. The time for debate about this book is over, and anyone who does not acknowledge that Murray and his work are racist is ignoring the truth."

"I gave up trying to predict timing years ago."

Good idea.

"I gave up trying to predict timing years ago."

You're full of shit. I remember because I've always thought you carried a grain of truth. But I asked, and you set a hard deadline which came and went.

"you have your head up your ass."

Riiiiiiight. You just don't want to admit your sandwich board was full of shit.

You're full of shit. I remember because I've always thought you carried a grain of truth. But I asked, and you set a hard deadline which came and went.

That was one time only. Today, the markets are so massively manipulated, timing is impossible to predict. The trend is another story. That is as certain as it always was.

You just don't want to admit your sandwich board was full of shit.

#82 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

The charts Dan. The charts I posted. Do they mean nothing to you?

"The time for debate about this book (The Bell Curve) is over.."

You stole Al Gore's famous lie.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!

"The charts Dan. The charts I posted. Do they mean nothing to you?"

The dates, Ray. The dates you stated. Do they mean nothing to you?

The dates, Ray. The dates you stated. Do they mean nothing to you?
#86 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

I learn from my mistakes. See #63, 64 & 66. What about the charts? You're supposed to be the expert on finance.

"I learn from my mistakes."

But you've made so many; how do we know you're not making another?

"What about the charts? You're supposed to be the expert on finance."

Oh, the charts clearly show we're fucked. The topic, however, is your shitty timing: you claimed armageddon was going to occur years ago, and have claimed the same on pretty much a daily basis. Isn't that sandwich board getting heavy?

Funny, I never met a rich chartist. I wonder if anyone ever did a real scientific study to find out if the financial charets actually show anything at all?

"The charts Dan, the charts. All that deficit spending, debt accumulation and money creation. Where's the recovery?"

Who said anything about that? All I've said is you've predicted disaster again and again, you set a hard deadline for a complete collapse, and that date has come and long gone.

Oh, the charts clearly show we're fucked. The topic, however, is your shitty timing: you claimed armageddon was going to occur years ago, and have claimed the same on pretty much a daily basis. Isn't that sandwich board getting heavy?
#88 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

With what I own in gold and silver, I was never more optimistic. As for those dependent on real estate, stocks, bonds, pensions, entitlements, and government salaries, they're fucked. I just can't say when.

Funny, I never met a rich chartist.

#89 | Posted by fwthom at 2012-01-22 09:49 PM | Reply

Nice to meet you, FrequentlyWiseThom.

All I've said is you've predicted disaster again and again, you set a hard deadline for a complete collapse, and that date has come and long gone.

And I said I grew out of that phase. So you can put it to rest.

"I just can't say when."

Really? Because Ray of Old had no problem saying when, he just wasn't very accurate.

"And I said I grew out of that phase."

So how do we know this round of doomsday predictions isn't another "phase"? I mean, you were dead wrong then, when you were just as sure you were right as you are today.

You're beating on a dead issue.

The country is going down hill in many ways: economically, socially, culturally, drugly, legally, politically, started to go down militarily, in foreign policy, ethically, educationally, more restrictions, less freedom, less opportunity. What has caused all this? Most is due to government action, some is due to the biased main stream media, the entertainment people, the academics, the people who call themselves economists. Too many people who do not contribute any goods or services, but use a lot of both.

One thing Ray will be right about is the ongoing value of hard assets. We haven't seen the high yet in gold and silver.

"You're beating on a dead issue."

Why is your poor prognostication a "dead issue"? If you've claimed the end of the world multiple times, Reverend Campion, why should anyone take you seriously the next time you cry wolf?

I've never known of a liberal to take me seriously. You're boring me. I have to go.

"I've never known of a liberal to take me seriously. "

Too fuckin' funny: someone actually wants to take you seriously, and you run from your record.

Too fuckin' funny: someone actually wants to take you seriously, and you run from your record.

I knew you would come back with something dumb. You're supposed to be an expert on finance. And you want to take ME seriously. I find that laughable.

"You're supposed to be an expert on finance."

I'm more than happy to; however, you've been wrong more often than a blind weatherman. Why are you running from the fact you've predicted doomsday like you're in a production of Groundhog Day?

"you want to take ME seriously. I find that laughable."

Yeah, I guess anyone should find taking you seriously as laughable at this point.

. It goes down to a basic spirituality (which you probably will never understand) that puts self-interest on the same plane as interest in others. At least before the 60s in the "religions" that existed there was subtle cultural/community pressure that demanded looking out for your community.

Don't be so naive. History is full of supposedly spirtitual and religious leaders who make the current crop of Robertsons look like county parsons. Where there is valuables, there is greed. Check out the vatican. And just because I don't sit in a pew every Sunday wishing I wasa on the golf course while some guy tells me what the Book I can very well read actually means, doesn't mean I have no spiritual or center.

At least before the 60s in the "religions" that existed there was subtle cultural/community pressure that demanded looking out for your community. As small as that may have been. And fuck everybody who wasn't in your congregation.

How old are you Matsop? Not as an insult, but just to see where your recollections start.

No, the poor are poor because the lefties of the demoratic party put them into a welfare system they'll never recover from----ala Bob Beckel.

#78 | Posted by matsop

Must have been a wonderful world pre-FDR when no one was poor. Were the streets paved with gold, no one ever got old and rainbows and unicorns filled the skies? Maybe you should ask that Jesus guy about the poor. You have heard of him, haven't you?

#89 | Posted by fwthom at 2012-01-22 09:49 PM | Reply

Nice to meet you, FrequentlyWiseThom.

#93 | Posted by matsop

Now there is one hell of a marriage LOL

Ray-you better start gumming your coins, theymay be as fake as your references:

his alleged quote from Marcus Tullius Cicero that began circulating on the Internet in October, 2008, is based on a true statement from the great Roman orator, but someone added a lot to it to make it match some of what the United States was facing economically.

The actual quote is: "The arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and assistance to foreign hands should be curtailed, lest Rome fall."

updated 10/08/08
A real example of the eRumor as it has appeared on the Internet:
“The budget should be balanced, the treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.” -- Cicero , 55 B.C.

Sorry dude.

HOORAY, I WAS BORN AND IT SUCKS.

I flew over your nest and it appears the thorazin and mellaril aren't working:
#48 | Posted by matsop

Up your dosage.

Must have been a wonderful world pre-FDR when no one was poor. Were the streets paved with gold, no one ever got old and rainbows and unicorns filled the skies? Maybe you should ask that Jesus guy about the poor. You have heard of him, haven't you?

#106 | Posted by northguy3 at 2012-01-22 11:05 PM | Reply

Nice deflection. Hard to admit how bad you guys screwed up this country and the poor---putting them into a system where it is very difficult to see "hope and change". Of course, I forgot; your type don't care about the poor---it's that genetic evilness.

Instead of imitating what the rich do to be successful, poor fucks imitate each other and manage to achieve the sane level of success. And the ghetto scum and trailer trash believe liberals who tell them they are victims of an unjust society so poor fuckers can't do anything to change their situation except to vote democrap.

Instead of imitating what the rich do to be successful, poor fucks imitate each other and manage to achieve the sane level of success. And the ghetto scum and trailer trash believe liberals who tell them they are victims of an unjust society so poor fuckers can't do anything to change their situation except to vote democrap.

Me, I don't have the faintest fucking idea what any of that crap I wrote really means. I'm assuming that because it's a stream and it comes from my consciousness - or is it subconsciousness or unconsciousness (Jeezus, sometimes that's really confusing, know what I mean?) - and moves along like effluent pouring out of the kidneys and bowels of Calcutta into the East Kolkata Wetlands - hey, saves money that would be squandered building waste treatment facilities - that it must be good.

Besides, there's always Foosball.

#112 | Posted by fwthom

After reading through the article, the one element that sticks out to me is how the declines have hit both classes in the same way.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a liberal Democrat from NY predicted that this would occur way back in the 60s or 70s when Johnson's 'great society' programs kicked in.

Instead of imitating what the rich do to be successful, poor fucks imitate each other and manage to achieve the sane level of success.
#112 | Posted by fwthom

The article suggests that the solution lies with you, fabulously wealthy thom, that you move back to the city so that the poor have a concrete example of success to inspire them. We'll be waiting.

The article suggests that the solution lies with you, fabulously wealthy thom, that you move back to the city so that the poor have a concrete example of success to inspire them. We'll be waiting.

You think that Jayz and Kayne living in the projects will solve the problem?

You think that Jayz and Kayne living in the projects will solve the problem?
#116 | Posted by dr_dude2

I don't know, but the article suggests so. Did you read to the end?

Yep. And I think the suggestion is crazy. People should be able to live where they want. Moving wealthy people into low income, higher crime neighborhoods doesn't do anything except make them targets.

I suggest we start by simply holding people accountable for their actions. For example, If you have enough money to buy gold teeth, tatoo your body, smoke cigarettes, carry a cell phone and wear designer jeans and Nikes, then you shouldn't have "medicaid" on your payer status when you go to the doctor to treat a cough.

Similarly, college students who are already on a fucking meal plan shouldn't be collecting food stamps.

Similarly, teen single moms on a reality TV show shouldn't be able to sign up their fatherless children for social security.

That'd be a better start than moving Miley Cyrus to Appalachia to be a role model.

Amherst claims there are around 10 million loans in trouble: 4 million 60 days past due, 2.5 million modified which will default and 3.6 million underwater loans likely to go bad.

The current inventory of bank-owned homes, Fanny, Freddie, FHA, the banks, private label, are close to 3.4 million properties. The banks are going to get rid of another 3.4 million distressed homes even though the market is completely saturated. Prices have only one way to go¦DOWN.

The banks find themselves in this pickle after having already been bailed out 3 times to the tune of many trillions of dollars. (The $700 billion TARP, the $1.25 trillion QE1, and the Fed's lending facilities which provided blanket support to financial institutions of about $12.4 trillion in loans and other commitments) And now, there's going to be a 4th trillion dollar bailout, which many expect President Obama to announce on Tuesday in the State of the Union Speech.

The stated goal of the purchases will be to drive down interest rates even further from current record-low levels, and, less obviously, to spur confidence that more monetary tools remain to stimulate the economy. But the Fed's proposed purchases have nothing to do with "driving down interest rates" or "stimulating the economy". That's just more public relations hype. It's all about inflating the prices of droopy financial assets that are eating up banks' balance sheets.

In the first PPIP Uncle Sam was supposed to stump up 94% of the low interest financing for mortgage-backed securities (MBS) that no one else wanted. (This time it will be the houses themselves).

Geithner's scheme offers a one-way bet: if asset values go up, the investors profit, but if they go down, the investors can walk away from their debt. This isn't really about letting markets work. It's just a disguised way to subsidize purchases of bad assets.

There are some pretty wealthy and well-connected people who are betting the farm that another round of QE will put MBS into the stratosphere. What do these guys know that we don't know? The other part is a presumed "Public-Private Investment Partnership" that will incentivize the big banks and private equity firms to buy up loads of distressed homes so they can convert them into rental units. Team Obama is going to make them an offer they can't refuse.

The banker who put in $.06 while taxpayers put in $.94 will still rake in 50% of the profits. Nice, eh?

Bankers need to trim their inventory and pump a little more ether into their sagging MBS. Obama and Bernanke will do whatever it takes to get the job done.

excerpted from MIKE WHITNEY

If you aren't angry you aren't paying attention

We could progress a little sooner if we could just admit that sometimes well-intentioned liberal programs haven't worked, and that, conversely, Charles "Bell Curve" Murray is a racist prick. I mean, the guy actually argued that the distance a man ejaculates has an inverse relationship to his IQ. Anything he says after that will and should be subject to scrutiny. We also have to admit that the conservative mantra of trickle-down doesn't work and, moreover, that poverty and social issues are not easily fixed, despite what politicians and many DR denizens will say.

But even racist pricks like Murray can make a valid point now and then. For example, trying to argue against his contention that "nonmarital births are problematic" is just dumb. We should all be working to reverse the rising trend of nonmarital births, because it's undeniable that kids who grow up in single-parent households are much less likely to be successful.

He even notes that segregation by income has had serious negative effects on society at large. That's hardly a radical right-wing view.

While Murray places too much emphasis on 1960s hippies for our current social ills, he does acknowledge that neither liberals nor conservatives have been truly effective in combating them. What he suggests is, in fact, something liberals ought to endorse: that it takes the collective will of the people to fix our problems. In other words, it takes a village.

So bottom line, I think there's value here, if we can look beyond Murray's racist history and the discomfort all parties feel in trying to work toward compromise.

I mean, the guy actually argued that the distance a man ejaculates has an inverse relationship to his IQ.

#120 | Posted by cbob at 2012-01-23 04:11 PM | Reply

Geez, cbob, you don't have to be so sensitive.

The article suggests that the solution lies with you, fabulously wealthy thom, that you move back to the city so that the poor have a concrete example of success to inspire them. We'll be waiting.

#115 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2012-01-23 10:55 AM | Reply

FabulouslyWealthyThom will never find his way since he just bought one of those new "high crime area" GPS's.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a liberal Democrat from NY predicted that this would occur way back in the 60s or 70s when Johnson's 'great society' programs kicked in.

An update from him circa 1992 is readily accessible over the net - www.nationalaffairs.com

#114 | Posted by dr_dude2 at 2012-01-23 10:47 AM | Reply

Moynihan was one those lefties that thought for himself---I respected him and supported him. He was a refreshing change from the idiots that always supported the party line and turned this country upside down.

We also have to admit that the conservative mantra of trickle-down doesn't work and, moreover, that poverty and social issues are not easily fixed, despite what politicians and many DR denizens will say.

I agree but would take issue with this whole notion of trickle down.
The practice simply doesn't exist. When you have 1,000 people waiting in line at the Apple store for the latest Iphone, that isn't trickle down. It's fucking trickle up!

When you have goofballs lined up outside of Walmart at 12:00am on Black Friday waiting for deals on HD TVs, that isn't trickle down. People buying designer bottled water that they can easily get out of a faucet isn't economic trickle down.

Capital flows up, down and sideways. The term "trickle-down" came from a comedian during the depression. And it is now the core of leftist economic understanding.

I agree with Chales Murray that intelligence measured by IQ is the driving force creating the new upper class and that class of people, thanks to the interstate highway system is moving further out to the exurbs and becoming more isolated and consolidated but that is not necessarily a bad thing as he suggests.

Who wouldn't want to live among the most intelligent, interesting people? Why would anyone want to move across the tracks to live among people who don't pick up the trash in their own front yards, don't go to work, have babies out of wedlock, smoke crack and collect welfare? Does the good apple make the bad apples better or does one bad apple make the whole bunch rotten?

Why do we need to solve the problems of the poverty class? Let them eat tree bark.

Fabulously Wealthy Thom

Thom know what he's talking about: he's a Foosballer.

"Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a liberal Democrat from NY predicted that this would occur way back in the 60s or 70s when Johnson's 'great society' programs kicked in."

Yes he did, and yes, he was right. You don't know how many times I have regretted not voting for Goldwater in 1964 and helped to turn Johnson loose on the USA. Goldwater's slogan still keeps coming to mind..."In your heart, you know he's right." Yep, he was right, and look what we got instead. Maybe we'll see a minor replay of the '60's now if we can keep the Occupoopers in action. Whattaya think, Doc?

Who wouldn't want to live among the most intelligent, interesting people?

Doc_Sarvis

The crack epidemic and bad schools are a deliberate product of the ruling class as surely as the moon mission, highways and atomic weapons.

Wealth and intelligence are poorly correlated, except in the middle. That's because most wealth is inherited, not earned. I have used laborers who exhibit extraordinary intelligence and some as dumb as a home made radio. Those who blame the poor for their condition are ignorant, callous fuckwads.

The crack epidemic and bad schools are a deliberate product of the ruling class as surely as the moon mission, highways and atomic weapons.

Those who blame the poor for their condition are ignorant, callous fuckwads.

I know that, as a member of the ruling class, I've personally blown crack up many people's snort-holes in order to keep them in line.
I also forced many a father to abandon their children and pursue their dreams of tatoos and alcohol. Many of my rich friends have done the same.

Who wouldn't want to live among the most intelligent, interesting people?

NutCase.

Charles Murray, the co-author of "The Bell Curve" has brought some interesting ideas to the table and yet the liberal monkey's like Doc Sarvis just throw monkey shit from their cage in response. It would be more interesting to hear a actual argument from the libs if they actually had one. Man up libbies!!!