Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Wednesday, January 11, 2012

I meet you all the time. You hate Obama. You hate gay people. You hate black people, immigrants, Muslims, labor unions, women who want the right to make choices concerning their bodies, you hate em all. You hate being called racist. You hate being called a bigot. Maybe if you talked about creating jobs more than you talk about why you hate gay people we wouldn't call you bigots. Maybe if you talked about black people without automatically assuming they are on food stamps while demanding their birth certificates we wouldn't call you racist. You hate socialism and social justice. You hate regulations and taxes and spending and the Government. You hate.

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Now that you have thrown everything and the kitchen sink at President Obama and it still hasn't worked you are panicking. Obama's approval ratings are still near 50% despite your best efforts to undermine the economy and America's recovery at every step you can. You tried to hold the American economy hostage to force America into default on its' debts, debts that YOU rang up under Bush, so you could blame it on Obama and it failed. You've used the filibuster more than any other Congress ever, going so far as to vote against providing health care access to 9/11 first responders. You remember 9/11, don't you, it's that thing you used to lie us into a war in Iraq, and then when Obama killed Bin Laden and ended the war in Iraq you told people that he hates America and wants the troops to fail. You monsters. You hate Obama with a passion, despite the fact that he is a tax cutting, deficit reducing war President who undermines civil rights and delivers corporate friendly watered down reforms that benefit special interests just like a Republican. You call him a Kenyan. You call him a socialist. You dance with your hatred singing it proudly in the rain like it was a 1950's musical.

Frankly, you disgust me. Your hatred nauseates me. Your bigotry offends me. Your racism revolts me.

Dear haters, I am openly questioning your patriotism.

This is certain to make some heads explode if only because the truth is often so hard to bear when it run counter to someone's own bigotries.

lmao

"I meet you all the time. You hate Obama."

And each time I post this gem...

You form your opinion around your hatred for the President of the United States.

That sentence, in 14 words, does what I can't seem to do in 5,000+.

That's what it boils down to.

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2007-04-16 01:32 AM

...the irony seems to get lost ("...cutting and pasting 3 year-old posts and straining to make some kind of metaphorical coup with them").

God, this guy must keep Xanax and Nexium in business.

A hateful letter calling other people haters. Cute.

And people worry about a little anti-obama mentality in politics these days? But seriously, paranoid delusion is no laughing matter, it would be hilarious if it was not as serious of a symptom of severe mental issues.

Poor guy.

Doesn't seem all that hateful to me. In fact the last paragraph goes on to say that he won't stoop to the level of the haters and that he loves them as one should love their fellow man.

And yet not one so far has any rebuttal to what he says since my aforementioned "truth" is so hard to view when it's pointed out to you.

Doesn't seem all that hateful to me.

Yeah. Calling people "disgusting," "nauseating" and telling them to "get the hell out" isn't hateful. You must be quite a hater to think that those are kind or neutral words.

In fact the last paragraph goes on to say that he won't stoop to the level of the haters

Oh. Well as long as he said that, it's true.

Retard.

What'sa matter Joe, you still upset that your Mom's flagging tricks down on Pulaski?

The Obamahaters post here every day with their ridiculous charges and accusations yet they somehow don't think the rest of us can recognize what they are. It's funny in a way but frightening in another that there are so many haters in America.

""truth" is so hard to view when it's pointed out to you."

That may be because it is hard to see the demented hallucinations of someone's imaginative rant.

#11 | Posted by Reagan58

Did you post this article to get people to call you names?

Sad.

This thread is stupid.

ALL presidents have their haters and they are all irrational.

The nasty things said about Bush were every bit as hateful and frequent as what we are seeing about Obama.

First, it's not an article, it's an opinion piece. Secondarily, it represents the impression and perception that a great many American's have when it comes to the Fox News, Limbaugh Letter, Beck wing of right wingers in this country. It may be somewhat over the top but it just clears that bar by fractions of an inch.

No JeffJ the frequency and volume is not even close.

"it represents the impression and perception that a great many American's have"

There are also a "great many" Americans that believe drinking diet soda will help them loose weight. It does not make it any closer to the slightetes sliver of actual truth.

"No JeffJ the frequency and volume is not even close."

Bull, bull, bull, bull.

The delusion is spreading i see.

The Obamahaters post here every day with their ridiculous charges and accusations yet they somehow don't think the rest of us can recognize what they are. It's funny in a way but frightening in another that there are so many haters in America.

#12 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-11 12:23 PM

Danni equates even the most mundane of criticisms to hatred of Obama, possibly with a racist element.

Danni equates even the most mundane of criticisms to hatred of Obama, possibly with a racist element.
#20 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

Some debate to reveal the truth, others to win. It's a question as to which is the more noble cause.

Should change the headline to "An Open Strawman to Myself".

The letter maybe be describing a few people but all of Obama's critics?

Some people really need to grow up.

It's not just Obama critics, I've been numbered among those critical of some things that he's done or not done. It's those and the DR right is full of them that take the opportunity to act in a manner that's clearly racist, homophobic, xenophobic and anti-any religion other than their own.

They display brutal and base hatred for no reason other than to denigrate those that think or speak out differently than they do.

"The letter maybe be describing a few people but all of Obama's critics?"

The letter is way over the top, but it's clearly addressed to those who hate (and those clearly exist), not to all critics.

Given my criticism of Obama is always written off as "you are just an Obama-hater," I don't put people who say it much above Bushlings who dismissed criticism of Dubya with the exact same rhetoric.

It is easier for them to attack the speaker in hopes of shifting the subject from offense against Obama to defense of one's own character.

They display brutal and base hatred for no reason other than to denigrate those that think or speak out differently than they do.

#23 | Posted by Reagan58

The left does the exact same thing.

Very well written, I see the opinion piece has already throw sand in the vags of many of our Obama hating DR posters already.

OH WHAT A LOAD OF CRAPOLA LIBERALS are by far the absolute worst when it comes to hate and intolerance most conservatives by contrast do not hate Obungler they just dislike him and his failed policies.

LOL this has to be a sad sad cry for help Not to worry though if you are a liberal as soon as Mitt Romney is sworn in you can all start where you left off with your hate filled Bush Rants,,,

@JeffJ, so the nanny nanny boo boo defense is what you're going with? Yes, some on the left are guilty but I still maintain that the tone, tenor and vociferocity is not even close to comparable to what I've witnessed since Obama was elected. Some chose that point in time to say that there were no longer any boundaries.

LIBERALS are by far the absolute worst when it comes to hate and intolerance most conservatives by contrast do not hate Obungler they just dislike him and his failed policies.

#28 | POSTED BY ATAXPAYER AT 2012-01-11 12:54 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Top ten nominee for self retorting retort.

"The letter is way over the top, but it's clearly addressed to those who hate (and those clearly exist), not to all critics."

To me, it comes across as just another version of "dissent against Obama = racism" - which is a racist position in and of itself.

I don't hate Obama. But I don't like him and its entirely possible to hate him without having any of the bullshit in that letter apply to you.

Remember Boys and Girls if you have an opinion that does not exactly mirror Obungler you are an automatic RACIST,,,

Yes Sully, you're correct that it's possible to hate Obama for reason's that have nothing to do with what's it the letter. Mi esposa hates him for continuing down that relatively centrist path that Bush blazed and she's likely the least bigoted person that I know.

That being said, you can peruse many of the threads on the DR and elsewhere and it clear that the charges that he mounts in this letter are right on target.

Remember Boys and Girls if you have an opinion that does not exactly mirror Obungler you are an automatic RACIST,,,
#32 | Posted by ATaxpayer

You might like to believe that, but it's untrue. Nobody calls me racist for disagreeing with the President and I am hardly ever anything more than underwhelmed with him.

Dear haters, I am openly questioning your patriotism.

If I gave you a quarter, would you call someone who gives shit?

.
.......worth reading in it's entirety........
.
.....one the most concise & precise descriptions of the great American schism......

" I still maintain that the tone, tenor and vociferocity is not even close to comparable to what I've witnessed since Obama was elected."

Huh?

Not nearly as many calls for his death or arrest. No nearly as many calling him an idiot even though he mangles the English language just as badly as bush did. Not nearly as many people calling him a traitor. Not nearly as many people wanting him to be tortured and not nearly as many shoes thrown at him. Not only has the right shown a, although marginal, superiority in the politeness arena the media has treated obama very differently then bush. You did not have the screams of racism every time a legitimate concern was brought up with bush. It is no where near as obama as it was and has continued to be for bush.

Top ten nominee for self retorting retort.

#30 | Posted by Reagan58 at 2012-01-11 12:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

TROLL MUCH ?

This is the most narcissistic opinion hack piece I have read to date, it truly does epitomiz the liberal mindset however. I would submit from now on you change the Bong Water daily,,,

Remember Boys and Girls if you have an opinion that does not exactly mirror Obungler you are an automatic RACIST,,,

Well color me guilty. (Oops, I said 'color').

"I don't hate Obama. But I don't like him and its entirely possible to hate him without having any of the bullshit in that letter apply to you."

Maybe, but it's pretty stupid to waste a powerful emotion like hate on a politician.
+++++

"If I gave you a quarter, would you call someone who gives shit?"

Only if you fire up the DeLorean and send me back to 1985. ; )
+++++

"mangles the English language just as badly as bush did"

Wow. Reality--seen it lately? Yes, corpseman. Okay. But one could write whole books of Bush malaprops and manglings. Some of your other points are good, but you slipped the rails on this one.

Nobody calls me racist for disagreeing with the President and I am hardly ever anything more than underwhelmed with him.

#34 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2012-01-11 01:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Perhaps I disagree with the President more vehemently, I can assure you that I have been called a Racist on many occasions by liberals for simply having a different view point. In my opinion liberals use the race card just like a trump card to make them feel they have somehow won a debate by playing it,,,

Reagan58 is an angry douchebag. It's no surprise he'd post this letter and defend it. It sounds exactly like something he would write.

"That being said, you can peruse many of the threads on the DR and elsewhere and it clear that the charges that he mounts in this letter are right on target."

I've seen racist comments posted here. I would still be hard pressed to find someone who fits the charicature painted in the letter.

I remember seeing some early Tea Party protests in my town. This is when Obama was in office for a couple of months. I'm reading the signs these people are carrying and thinking "Where were you the last eight years when all this was going on?" I definitely got the feeling that many of these people were like pigs in shit while Bush did all the same things they were complaining about simply because he had an R after their name. IMO, much of the outrage wasn't over policy but over "my side lost!". I'm not naive enough to think all criticism of Obama is legit.

I just find it hypocritical to go over the top when complaining about others being over the top.

Not nearly as many calls for his death or arrest. No nearly as many calling him an idiot even though he mangles the English language just as badly as bush did. Not nearly as many people calling him a traitor. Not nearly as many people wanting him to be tortured and not nearly as many shoes thrown at him. Not only has the right shown a, although marginal, superiority in the politeness arena the media has treated obama very differently then bush. You did not have the screams of racism every time a legitimate concern was brought up with bush. It is no where near as obama as it was and has continued to be for bush.

#37 | POSTED BY SALAMANDAGATOR AT 2012-01-11 01:08 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

You're kidding right? One docum-movie about Bush's death and a handful of posters on websites like the DR talking about his death vs. dozens of political actors and pundits discussing Obama being assassinated.

Every sort of rightwing pundit calling Obama a traitor or worse.

As I said, when Obama was elected there became many on the right that viewed that as removing all boundaries of decency and it's from the top down not the other way around. Due to that it's become accepted that it's perfectly fine to be racist, homophobic, xenophobic and any other bad behavior that the right chooses to engage.

Ask Newt, Ron and Mitt about it...the right wants to say that liberals are attacking them with unwarranted charges when it's actually others in the fringe right wing world making these charges and claims.

"Perhaps I disagree with the President more vehemently..."

Maybe you should get a little introspective with your vehemency.

#41 | Posted by ATaxpayer

I don't recall whether you've done this, but it's hard to imagine a poster being surprised for getting slammed after rattling on about "Chocolate Obama," "Obammy," and then using faux-ghettospeak to add more incendiary material to the self-constructed pyre.

Again, I don't recall whether you've done this or not.

IMO, much of the outrage wasn't over policy but over "my side lost!"

I get what you are saying. Define 'my side'.

"Chocolate Obama,"

It was Chocolate Carter.

"but you slipped the rails on this one."

Different ways, but just as bad.

Bush would fail in proper pronunciation and occasionally make up words.
Obama has done some of the same but more to the effect of being unable to put a sentence together properly. This you see when it is unscripted with the 12,000 ums between each word and the many gaffes that just keep coming. If by some chance he were to serve 8 years i do believe that he would be able to give bush a serious run for his money in that regard.

Seems like less of a ranting opinion piece than it does a transcript of the means by which you convince yourself that people that disagree with Obama do so out of hatred instead of reasoned thought.

Being a detractor does not make on a hater. I would very much enjoy sitting down and having a beer with the president. I don't agree with any number of things he believes in or has done, but I don't hate the man.

You also are guilty of perhaps the greatest crime rabidly liberal pundits commit: you lump conservatives together. You have perhaps done so more effectively in your post than most - you pile a laundry list of viewpoints together and cast them under the "Obamahater" designation. Not all conservatives are Moral Majority, a fact glaringly obvious in the recent successes of a libertarian and a Mormon. We are not all racists or bigots, but you believe we are and that makes us easier for YOU to hate. Perhaps, when looking for haters, you should start with the man in the mirror.

Last, I find you in no position of moral authority to question me or my patriotism. Your predilection to supposition and predetermination of my character based on, dare I say it, a stereotype of a conservative proves you incapable of unbiased reasoning an unqualified to judge me.

So go fuck yourself.

Well, that's your opinion. I just don't see it. (shrug)

#44

Again, reality disagrees with you.
There are hundred of pictures of "kill bush" signs. He was burned in effigy on many occasions. He was treated by the left wing pundits worse then obama has by the right. Even the DR does not bear witness to your portrayal of mentality.

"You also are guilty of perhaps the greatest crime rabidly liberal pundits commit: you lump conservatives together. "

Yes, the piece does that. And conservatives (or "independents") on this site (don't know if you're one) do it all the time regarding liberals. And liberals do it regarding conservatives. Blah blah blah. It doesn't bug me when it's fairly innocent, but when anyone accuses an entire group of behaving in x fashion, well, that's just stupid. It betrays extremely poor writing skills or a woeful lack of understanding of humankind.

"He was burned in effigy on many occasions."

By Americans?

"He was treated by the left wing pundits worse then obama has by the right."

What?

Well, I've stirred the pot enough for today. Back to spreadsheets and reports. Have fun, I'll check back later.

Again, I don't recall whether you've done this or not.

#46 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2012-01-11 01:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

DOC I use the term Obungler almost exclusively I have never used Chocolate or Obammy. The term Obungler as you can see has nothing to do with race and is centered around what I perceive as his job performance. Obama gives me so much material to work with I really don't need nor would I use a racial component to make my point that he has nothing but failed policies,,,

I still think the letter is just meant to purposely draw fire,,,

TROLLING TROLLING TROLLING get em up move em out rawhide,,,

#54

Now, i do understand that this is representative of just a few vocal idiots but it is at a level i have yet to see with obama.

www.binscorner.com

As for the left wing pundits, there were those that are just as bad as rush or beck.
Randi rhodes, maddow, hartman, mahre and the list goes on.

Telegraph UK:

Obama receives 400% more death threats than Bush.

www.telegraph.co.uk

www.binscorner.com

#57 | Posted by salamandagator at 2012-01-11 01:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

FOR ALL THE LIBERALS AND DEMOCRATS if you are not afraid of seeing both sides of this debate take a look at the link provided by salamandagator I am certain MOST of you would not be very proud of what you see,,,

"As for the left wing pundits, there were those that are just as bad as rush or beck.
Randi rhodes, maddow, hartman, mahre and the list goes on."

Well the same except that they use facts instead of bull shit. Other than that though they are somewhat similar in that they are on the radio or TV.

03 Aug 2009

Any more recent death threat stats against Obama? It would be interesting to see if the trend increased, decreased, or remained constant through the entire term.

"Well the same except that they use facts instead of bull shit."

Going for a funny flag or do you really believe they are any different just because they are your entire source for "your" opinions?

"Obama receives 400% more death threats than Bush."

Not according to the secret service.

www.politico.com

Well the same except that they use facts instead of bull shit.

#60 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-11 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hey speaking of the liberal MSM does Chris Mattews still get a tingle up his leg and tinkle when he hears the President speak. I'm sure he must be fair and balanced after he pisses himself,,,

"Secret Service: Threat level against Obama no greater than under Bush, Clinton"

Damn Pesky facts again,,,

"just as bad as rush or beck"

But you didn't say just as bad in the post to which I responded; you said worse. "He was treated by the left wing pundits worse then obama has by the right."

"I'm sure he must be fair and balanced after he pisses himself,,,"

I don't think he claims to be unbiased but he is pretty fair. He treats conservatives on his show with respect and let's them hve the last word on lots of discussions. More than you can really say for most of the right wing pundits.

What a bunch of garbage. More evidence of libs coming unglued. Expect more and more of this tripe as we get closer to the election.

No matter how you slice and dice it, we've come a long way... down:

(John) Wayne supported Vice President Richard Nixon in the presidential election of 1960, but expressed his vision of patriotism when John F. Kennedy won the election: "I didn't vote for him but he's my president, and I hope he does a good job."
Versus someone else's "vision of patriotism":
"Okay, I'll send you a response, but I don't need 400 words, I need four: I hope he fails." - Rush Limbaugh (on President Obama), January, 2009

It's awesome to see you all take this so personally, seems like the author chose her words well.

Sandy vaginas all up in this thread.

"More than you can really say for most of the right wing pundits."

Bull.

Most of the pundits both right and left are douchebags.

On the right if you want to listen to a pundit whose reasonable and civil toward opposing viewpoints listen to Kilmeade or Tom Sullivan.

On the left Thom Hartmann seems reasonable and civil.

No JeffJ the frequency and volume is not even close.

#17 | Posted by Reagan58 at 2012-01-11 12:31 PM | Reply | Flag

And you don't see the irony! Look how well bush turned out!

"More than you can really say for most of the right wing pundits."

Fact.

"On the right if you want to listen to a pundit whose reasonable and civil toward opposing viewpoints listen to Kilmeade or Tom Sullivan."

I'll listen Jeff, I agree with you about Hartmann, if they are as fair I'll be impressed.

Sandy vaginas....

Clownshart is projecting again.

#70 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

I honestly dont understand the hatred and vitriol of obama. Ok I get the fact that people disagree with his positions, even strongly disagree, even honorably, strongly disagree with him.

But what has obama done?

he passed HCR, which objectively was a compromise implementation for HCR

he passed a stimulus

he eventually wound down Iraq

gitmo, afghanistan, pakistan

even libya eventually was limited in scope

his foreign policies seem to be within the range of acceptable and appropriate actions for a president in difficult straights

compare his actions to bush's actions and what happened on Bush's watch

9/11
Katrina
Afghanistan
Iraq
collapse of the economy

ok so obama has not magically brought the economy back to boom times-would republican stated policies do something magical in their place?

Again, I dont get the hatred, vitriol of those who oppose his policies.

at least he didnt start a war on lies costing trillions!

and no I dont think this is because he is black, clinton saw the same level of opposition and hatred.

I suppose it is just the nature of modern politics

#66

It probably should have read just as bad or worse. By that i am talking more to the insults rather then talking points. I tend to listen and watch more left slanted stuff then right slanted stuff. One thing i noticed was that the leftist stuff likes to include direct insults rather then just promoting their ideas. Hannity would lead people down the path that would suggest the insult but people like rhodes and maddow would just come out and say "he is an idiot" or "he is a bad person." Maybe you don't need to say it to mean it but i have always seen the right wing pundits as having a little more class(as far as propaganda pushing entertainers go).

The nasty things said about Bush were every bit as hateful and frequent as what we are seeing about Obama.

#15 | Posted by JeffJ at

There is a distinct difference between what obama has done and starting an illegal war based on lies, failing to help NO during katrina, operating incompetently before and during 9/11 and driving the economy to ruin.

All of which happened under Bush's watch.

The closest comparison is to LBJ in the 60's and I think LBJ deserved the hostility he received vis a vis vietnam

"On the left Thom Hartmann seems reasonable and civil."

The funny thing is that a few years ago you would have been completely wrong. But now he has calmed down a bit, we will see if it is just because his party is in power or if he has just grown and soon as obama is out of office.

"starting an illegal war based on lies"
Tinfoil time.

"failing to help NO during katrina,"
I think you mean failing to perform a miracle. There was a lot of effort and a lot of help that went to them.

"operating incompetently before and during 9/11"
Yeah, yeah, something that had never happened before and that no other prior administration was prepared for either was all his fault.

"driving the economy to ruin."
Again blame the guy who got a stagnate economy and failed to prevent the inevitable left by his predecessor.

But he does make a good point, albeit not the one he was trying to. While bush will never bee seen as a great president the treatment he receives by many is demonstrated by this post. To attack bush all you need is bumper sticker rhetoric and one line attacks. These attack are combated by the obama supporters with claims of racism and hatred. To criticize obama you have to have your facts in order lest your opinion be marginalized with claims of bigotry and even then that will be the attempt. So such tactic was available for bush supporters although i'm sure it would have been used if applicable.

I don't think it's possible for any person to be more fair and civil than Tom Sullivan.

#82 was directed toward Danni.

"I don't think it's possible for any person to be more fair and civil than Tom Sullivan."

Oohrah and JeffJ would be close seconds.

"starting an illegal war based on lies"
Tinfoil time.

TH: so where are the WMD? Where are Iraq's nukes?

"failing to help NO during katrina,"
I think you mean failing to perform a miracle. There was a lot of effort and a lot of help that went to them.

TH: heck of job brownie, sure all was done, except helicopters taking people of our the superdome, etc

"operating incompetently before and during 9/11"
Yeah, yeah, something that had never happened before and that no other prior administration was prepared for either was all his fault.

TH: didnt say all his fault, just saying he could have done more. Or perhaps you dont remember the August 2001 PDB.

"driving the economy to ruin."
Again blame the guy who got a stagnate economy and failed to prevent the inevitable left by his predecessor.

TH: invetible left by his predecessor? he had 8 years to fix it
to farking funny.

LOL this has to be a sad sad cry for help Not to worry though if you are a liberal as soon as Mitt Romney is sworn in you can all start where you left off with your hate filled Bush Rants,,,

#28 | Posted by ATaxpayer at 2012-01-11 12:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

Where ever your political affiliations lay, your bat shit crazy to think Mitt is going to be president.

Like my pops says "Only Bush could get a black man elected."

But he does make a good point, albeit not the one he was trying to. While bush will never bee seen as a great president the treatment he receives by many is demonstrated by this post. To attack bush all you need is bumper sticker rhetoric and one line attacks. These attack are combated by the obama supporters with claims of racism and hatred. To criticize obama you have to have your facts in order lest your opinion be marginalized with claims of bigotry and even then that will be the attempt. So such tactic was available for bush supporters although i'm sure it would have been used if applicable.

#81 | Posted by salamandagator

if you cant see the difference between bush and obama you are pathetic.

look at one issue only, iraq

please provide an example of something obama has done that even compares to bush's actions on iraq.

Yes, a lot of folks here bashed Bush, mainly for starting uneccesary wars on credit to get reelected and giving tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans, again on credit, and again to get reelected.... as those things led to Bush's Great Recession.

Obama is bashed for what? Aside from the nonsensical rhetoric about his birthplace or his religion or his supposed socialism, he is hated for what? Not cleaning up Bush's mess as quickly as anyone, including Obama, would like?

Not a great comparison in reasons to hate on a President.


Well, I've stirred the pot enough for today. Back to spreadsheets and reports. Have fun, I'll check back later.

#55 | Posted by Reagan58 at 2012-01-11 01:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

*****

The letter has seved it's intended pourpose,,,

TROLLING TROLLING TROLLING get em up move em out rawhide,,,

corky

I always like to think back to the HCR debate when comparing bush to obama.

Bush was criticized for starting a war, obama for wanting people to have health care.

seems pretty profound if you ask me.

-Bush was criticized for starting a war, obama for wanting people to have health care.

It is telling, isn't it.

TH: so where are the WMD?

We know where they are.
They're in the area
around Tikrit
and Baghdad
and east,
west,
south
and north
somewhat.

* Donald "Zen Koan Master" Rumsfeld
March 30, 2003

I love that quote. Pick a random post and then name every possible direction from that spot and say "they are somewhere in this area."

"I don't think it's possible for any person to be more fair and civil than Tom Sullivan."

I will check him out.

Not cleaning up Bush's mess as quickly as anyone, including Obama, would like?

#88 | Posted by Corky at 2012-01-11 02:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

yea yea we all remember Obungler on the campaign trail saying this is way to fucked up for any of MY policies to work. Then seconds after the election was over they fired up the MSM Obama excuse machine. The message should have been don't mislead people and make campaign promises you plan on covering with excuses,,,

The current President claimed his policies would work if he were to be elected,,,WELL,,,

"so where are the WMD? Where are Iraq's nukes?"

Come on, there were plenty of weapons that he was not supposed to have. Some were past their shelf life so somehow lost their classification but were still not ok to have according to the UN. He had delivery systems and manufacturing abilities it is no stretch to think that at the very least he had a good possibility of having WMDs especially considering that he had refused weapon inspectors and various occasions.

Not even Bush still buys that line.

" just saying he could have done more."

Maybe, but that is hindsight and seeing as to how people have reacted since then any security that would have stopped it would have been an outrage to most of America.

You have a responsibility to the public discourse, and you fail miserably.

Jon Stewart on Crossfire in 2004

I love that quote. Pick a random post and then name every possible direction from that spot and say "they are somewhere in this area."
#93 | Posted by kanrei

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Baruun-Urt, Mongolia and Vernon, Florida and east, west, south, and north somewhat."

Hey, Kanrei, you're right: it werks!

Anyone who thinks like this guy must have a massive inferiority complex.

"invetible left by his predecessor? he had 8 years to fix it
to farking funny."

And all he managed to do was postpone it a little. He attempted to fix it and it did not work as it was supposed to. But again all you can ask for is a reasoned effort and you cannot fault bush for his unless you fault obama for trying the same things. Except i fault obama more for more bailout and stimulus when it had just failed. Either way, he did not drive the economy to fail he just failed to prevent it.

-The current President claimed his policies would work if he were to be elected,,,WELL,,,

Well they have, slow but steady.... which is the worst real complaint you jokers have.

"so where are the WMD? Where are Iraq's nukes?"

Iraq executed on Monday Ali Hassan al-Majeed, Saddam Hussein's cousin known as "Chemical Ali, for crimes against humanity including the gassing of thousands of Kurds and violent crackdowns on Shi'ite revolts.

OH CRAP you mean they executed an innocent man,,,

"at the very least he had a good possibility of having WMDs especially considering that he had refused weapon inspectors and various occasions."

But the argument, the sales pitch to the American people, was not this. It was HE HAS THEM and HE WAS TIED TO 9/11!!! Both proved to be bullshit.

"OH CRAP you mean they executed an innocent man,,,"

Nothing to do with the questions you quoted.

But the argument, the sales pitch to the American people, was not this. It was HE HAS THEM and HE WAS TIED TO 9/11!!! Both proved to be bullshit.

Posted by pragmatist at 2012-01-11 03:11 PM |

I don't know what is worse: that Dubya lied when he said he knew where they were or that he was too stupid to plant them when they didn't turn up.

"please provide an example of something obama has done that even compares to bush's actions on iraq."

I don't disagree with his action is iraq. WMDs aside iraq had been causing us problems for years. Both clinton and bush senior had to take military action against them and it was not getting better. I believe that iraq was a problem that needed to be dealt with and while if it was a non problematic country we probably would have looked for more evidence before going in it was still a problem that needed solving.

"he did not drive the economy to fail he just failed to prevent it."

No one could have prevented it by Feb. 2009. You know that but pretend otherwise because you need to blame Obama.

Hay guys, y'all are a bit off topic. This thread isn't about Bush. It's about how if you are one of those people who wouldn't willingly blow Obama, you are a bad person.

"Both proved to be bullshit."

The tie to 9/11 sure.

But he did have weapons the that would have been classified as WMDs a few years earlier and weapons that the UN decided it was not okay to have. Like i said there was cause to believe that he had the weapons and the ability to use them. What we found were the weapons past their expiration date and the means to deploy them as well as the ability to manufacture more.

#109

Of course not, it did not stop him from telling all his mindless followers that he could though.

"But he did have weapons the that would have been classified as WMDs a few years earlier"

Doesn't matter. As you intimated, when they cease to have capabilities for "M" and for "D", they're not WMDs anymore.

Bush did not tie Iraq to 9-11.

Well they have, slow but steady.... which is the worst real complaint you jokers have.

#103 | Posted by Corky at 2012-01-11 03:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

I just read the other day we will be in round numbers at 15 trillion on the national debt. The current GDP is approximately the same amount meaning we are already at a %100 of our borrowing capacity. The current situation sure looks like the same path Greece has followed and this is BEFORE Obama wants to expand entitlements such as HCR,,,

Forecast:
Obama's boat has a Torpedo in the side is on fire and burning to the water line while sinking,,,


Bush did not tie Iraq to 9-11.

Posted by JeffJ at 2012-01-11 03:23 PM |

Cheney did repeatedly.

"meaning we are already at a %100 of our borrowing capacity. "

Who on earth told you that?

"But he did have weapons the that would have been classified as WMDs a few years earlier and weapons that the UN decided it was not okay to have."

Yeah, and he wasn't a nice guy and blah, blah, blah. Still no justification for a 10 year war, 4500 lost American soldiers, hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, several trillion dollars of costs, thousands of disabled vets, etc.

I remember one thing when I become confused about our invasion of Iraq and whether it was done on trumped up excuses....I remember Dick Cheney trying to claim Saddam was involved in 9-11. To me that was PROOF of how dishonest they were in selling that war. Today we have more crazy people trying to sell a war with Iran. Don't they ever learn???? Romeny's father learned about Vietnam and came home from there and told the truth about it, why can't his son be half the man his father was?

Nothing to do with the questions you quoted.

#106 | Posted by pragmatist at 2012-01-11 03:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

OH so you are saying Gasing thousands of his own people confirms he had zero WMD's really,,,

"The current GDP is approximately the same amount meaning we are already at a %100 of our borrowing capacity."

Quick, call Japan and tell them they are way over their limit.

I thought I detested Obama because he's a lying douchebag who's bankrupting the country. But I'm glad the Daily Kos has shown me the light.

So, courtesy of the DR liberals, the Daily Kos, the HuffPo, and MSNBC, I've learned the following: torture, running gargantuan deficits, keeping rendition facilities open, bypassing Congress to drop bombs on a country that's never attacked us, and putting Goldman Sachs flunkies over at Treasury are all unconstitutional outrages when white Republicans do it. But as soon as a black Democrat does them, we just have to shut the hell up. Got it.

By the way, nobody will ever be able to take you liberal pussies seriously again. All those "principles" you pretended to have in 2006 and 2007? You didn't mean a word of them. Noted.

Today we have more crazy people trying to sell a war with Iran.

You mean like this guy? www.youtube.com

"The current situation sure looks like the same path Greece has followed"

No it doesn't. The government doesn't offer retirement at 54 at 80% of your working paycheck.

"...and this is BEFORE Obama wants to expand entitlements such as HCR"

Early results point to the ACA saving taxpayer dollars. 2010 saw health costs rise only 3.2%, a number not seen in at least a generation.

Who on earth told you that?

#117 | Posted by Danforth at 2012-01-11 03:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dan Rather,,,

#115 | Posted by ATaxpayer

New spending increases by Bush were 88 percent; Obama 7 percent.

ourfuture.org

And no, Obama could not have decreased Bush's long term spending as it is borrowed money.

Well they have, slow but steady.... which is the worst real complaint you jokers have.
#103 | Posted by Corky

I say we're counting our eggs as chicks if that's reasoning we're going with. A little too enthusiastically, imo.

"Cheney did repeatedly."

Numerous members of the administration did. And I'm pretty sure Bush did--wasn't the yellowcake assertion in an SOTU speech?--but whatever. The administration did. Clearly and repeatedly. It was part of the sell to the American people.

Why do I think that JeffJ would say that "Obama did x" even if it were Biden or Napolitano or the energy guy (Chu?) or or or?

Btw, I lost respect for Colin Powell and Hilary Clinton around this issue, too. And I didn't hate Bush, not then and not now. But his and his administration's actions did indeed piss me off. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. When Bush said, "Now is not the time for a national debate!" I thought "Of course it is! It's exactly the time! You want us to go to war against someone who is not a direct aggressor against us." When is there a better time for a national debate? And yes, Congress fucked up too.

"So, courtesy of the DR liberals, the Daily Kos, the HuffPo, and MSNBC, I've learned the following: torture, running gargantuan deficits, keeping rendition facilities open, bypassing Congress to drop bombs on a country that's never attacked us, and putting Goldman Sachs flunkies over at Treasury are all unconstitutional outrages when white Republicans do it. But as soon as a black Democrat does them, we just have to shut the hell up. Got it."

And, courtesy of RiR, we've learned torture, running gargantuan deficits, keeping rendition facilities open, and dropping bombs on a country that's never attacked us don't matter until a black Democrat does them, and then it's an outrage.

Got it.

#126 | Well, unless one proposes that we would be better off with GOP fiscal policy, which is laughable on it's face, one might consider keeping one's nose attached rather than spiting one's face.

"Dan Rather"

IOW, you got caught making shit up out of whole cloth. Got it.

"OH so you are saying Gasing thousands of his own people confirms he had zero WMD's really,,,"

That did NOT happen in 2003 or 2002. That was before. Historical. Late 1980s? Doesn't mean he still had 'em.

Keep trying. But while you're asserting, go do some research. And think back on the rhetoric: He's got weapons. He's got weapons programs. He's got plans to reinstitute weapons programs. The slide in rhetoric was absurd. If it were in a movie, critics and audiences would have called it entirely unbelievable and bad writing.

Quick, call Japan and tell them they are way over their limit.

#120 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-11 03:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

They already know that young lady, Anyway as Danforth pointed out:

"The government doesn't offer retirement at 54 at 80% of your working paycheck."

And while that may be true our spending as compared to GDP is on the same path Greece took. Obama claimed on the campaign trail HIS polices will work not fail so now we sit back and wait another 4 years and Hope,,,

" Doesn't mean he still had 'em."

Except he did and we found some.

Why We Aren't Like Greece

www.thenation.com

"Obama claimed on the campaign trail HIS polices will work not fail"

Well, when he got the assignment, the job numbers were about 900,000 a month worse than they are now. Had someone offered me an improvement of 900K when we were bleeding 750,000 a month, I would have taken it.

"now we sit back and wait another 4 years and Hope"

Or we could just put the folks back in power who crashed the ship of state to begin with.

Yeah, piled up and unusable.

It was obfuscation if not out-and-out lying.

If you believe the WMD line, I bet you also believe that the Saddam statue-toppling was a spontaneous act by Iraqi citizens.

"Except he did and we found some."

Sorry, Mr. Hannity: they can't be called WMDs if they have no capability for "M" or "D". Those old shells, if broken open and the jelly smeared on someone's leg, will cause a nasty burn. That's about it.

Maybe WMD really means "Weapons of the Minimal Definition." This way a straightened out paper clip could land a Muslim in Gitmo tomorrow.

"Dan Rather"

IOW, you got caught making shit up out of whole cloth. Got it.

#130 | Posted by Danforth at 2012-01-11 03:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

www.foxnews.com

Here you go Danforth read away but considering it is from FOX NEWS I am sure you will summarily dismiss all the facts a bullshit,,,

"The U.S. debt surpassed 100 percent of gross domestic product after the government's debt ceiling was lifted, Treasury figures showed Wednesday, according to AFP." ,,,

"so where are the WMD? Where are Iraq's nukes?"

Come on, there were plenty of weapons that he was not supposed to have. Some were past their shelf life so somehow lost their classification but were still not ok to have according to the UN. He had delivery systems and manufacturing abilities it is no stretch to think that at the very least he had a good possibility of having WMDs especially considering that he had refused weapon inspectors and various occasions.

#96 | Posted by salamandagator

umm not true, he did have some rockets with too long of a range which were destroyed prior to invasion, he had no manufacturing abilities

Iraq executed on Monday Ali Hassan al-Majeed, Saddam Hussein's cousin known as "Chemical Ali, for crimes against humanity including the gassing of thousands of Kurds and violent crackdowns on Shi'ite revolts.

OH CRAP you mean they executed an innocent man,,,

#104 | Posted by ATaxpayer

gained his nickname from actions in the 1980's

I don't disagree with his action is iraq. WMDs aside iraq had been causing us problems for years. Both clinton and bush senior had to take military action against them and it was not getting better. I believe that iraq was a problem that needed to be dealt with and while if it was a non problematic country we probably would have looked for more evidence before going in it was still a problem that needed solving.

#108 | Posted by salamandagator

well wouldnt you agree that a President is responsible for his decisions and bush had choices in how he dealt with Iraq and his decisions were piss poor?

Of course, there is the whole legality issue of invading a country that posed no threat to the US.

well wouldnt you agree that a President is responsible for his decisions and bush had choices in how he dealt with Iraq and his decisions were piss poor?

He made some poor decisions and some of the planning and execution was brilliant (namely the initial stages of the invasion).

Of course, there is the whole legality issue of invading a country that posed no threat to the US.

Congress gave him authorization to use force.

gained his nickname from actions in the 1980's

#141 | Posted by truthhurts at 2012-01-11 03:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

The real question is did he use a WMD GAS,,,


This page is dedicated to the people of Halabja who on March 16th, 1988 suffered the worst chemical attacks committed by the Iraqi regime. On that day, 5,000 innocent civilians, 75% women and children, immediately perished. This was not the only chemical attack ordered by Saddam, it was just the worst.

5,000 people killed almost instantly sure sounds like a WMD,,,

Congress gave him authorization to use force.

#143 | Posted by JeffJ at
are we going to go there?

a. even congressional authorization was illegal (war of agression unless in response to an attack or against an imminent threat of an attack or specifically authorized by the UN)
b. Even the congressional authorization did not actually authorize force because Iraq posed no threat in March 2003 (beyond any doubt)
c. No UN resolution, Bush knew he needed second resolution, bush said he would ask for 2nd resolution (no matter what), bush drafted said resolution, bush did not ask for vote on 2nd resolution.

Bush Quote

"You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006

issuepedia.org

2003-03-21 Letter to Congress: "The use of armed forces against Iraq is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001."

TH,

Supremacy clause.

We did not need UN authorization. Our membership in the UN does not trump the Constitution.

TH,

If you want the last word - have it.

I have no interest in recycling a subject that has been debated countless times on this site.

I made a mistake by even commenting on the subject in the first place.

I made a mistake

#150 | Posted by JeffJ at 2012-01-11 04:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Words Never before seen on this site lol,,,

Words Never before seen on this site lol,,,

Sad but true.

"and bush had choices in how he dealt with Iraq and his decisions were piss poor?"

His decision to put boots on the ground is tactically the right one. Just bombing them and saying "don't do it again" historically has does not work. That being said, i am of the opinion that the war against iraq was a massive success, minimal losses and very quick. I do believe that it was somewhat short sighted to think that it would end there. I think there was also the idea that we could operate as nations had done previously but politics make that impossible. If were were to have just broken them and left our cost would have been negligible but the rebuilding cost far more then the war both in terms of money and lives.

We did not have to go in there. We should not be the world police but that is the role we are in now and a role that is probably not going to change. We are expected to act on atrocities and threats even when no direct threat is against us. It is not idea but it is the way our world works.

Troofy-

a. even congressional authorization was illegal (war of agression unless in response to an attack or against an imminent threat of an attack or specifically authorized by the UN)

Wrong, there is no legal requirement that any of those take place under US law, and the War Powers Resolution of 1973 has no such limitations, you are merely parroting well worn (and incorrect) talking points.

b. Even the congressional authorization did not actually authorize force because Iraq posed no threat in March 2003 (beyond any doubt)

Wrong. Public Law 107-243 found that Iraq was a "continuing threat" and authorized the President to use force "as he found necessary and appropriate" to protect against the continuing threat and enforce all relevant and existing UN Resolutions.

c. No UN resolution, Bush knew he needed second resolution, bush said he would ask for 2nd resolution (no matter what), bush drafted said resolution, bush did not ask for vote on 2nd resolution.

Wrong. JeffJ is correct, the supremacy clause rules out any need for a UN resolution, and the UN, after the fact, approved the Joint Force invasion and occupation of Iraq.

"Here you go Danforth read away but considering it is from FOX NEWS I am sure you will summarily dismiss all the facts a bullshit"

No, just your analysis of it. And reality has proven as much.

Reagan58's last great rant.

youtu.be

"5,000 people killed almost instantly sure sounds like a WMD"

Yeah, back in the 80s. Those shells have a fairly short shelf life. We know, we sold them to him.

#126 | Well, unless one proposes that we would be better off with GOP fiscal policy, which is laughable on it's face, one might consider keeping one's nose attached rather than spiting one's face.
#129 | Posted by Corky

*shrugs

My conscience is clear.

Republicans can NOT win on the issues. They've got NOTHING. All they have is a divide and conquer class war that pits ignorant racist and bigoted people against the rest of us in a meaningless battle of wedge issues and the already proven to fail George W. Bush agenda again of tax cuts for the rich, deregulation, privatization and war profiteering and nothing else, so all they can do is blame black people, gays the government, anybody and everyone else for their own failings. The party of personal responsibility, my ass.

Daaaaaaaaamn!!! Somebody got told off!!

So if you do not like obummer then you automatically hate gays, people of color and so forth?

Nice broad stroke there princess.

Dork

a. even congressional authorization was illegal (war of agression unless in response to an attack or against an imminent threat of an attack or specifically authorized by the UN)

Wrong, there is no legal requirement that any of those take place under US law, and the War Powers Resolution of 1973 has no such limitations, you are merely parroting well worn (and incorrect) talking points.

TH: wrong our treaty that has us participate in the UN IS US law, we cannot just ignore that law.

b. Even the congressional authorization did not actually authorize force because Iraq posed no threat in March 2003 (beyond any doubt)

Wrong. Public Law 107-243 found that Iraq was a "continuing threat" and authorized the President to use force "as he found necessary and appropriate" to protect against the continuing threat and enforce all relevant and existing UN Resolutions.

TH: Then what threat was posed by Iraq in March 2003? It was proven by March 2003 that Iraq posed NO threat to the US, Bush had no authorization to invade. and enforce UN resolutions? What UN resolution authorized the invasion of Iraq?

c. No UN resolution, Bush knew he needed second resolution, bush said he would ask for 2nd resolution (no matter what), bush drafted said resolution, bush did not ask for vote on 2nd resolution.

Wrong. JeffJ is correct, the supremacy clause rules out any need for a UN resolution, and the UN, after the fact, approved the Joint Force invasion and occupation of Iraq.

TH: your own arguement fails you. You say that the US has the right to attach whomever it chooses, you use the congressional authorization as proof that the US authorized the war, but the congressional authorization required enforcing UN resolutions, none of which authorized a use of force.

sorry you are wrong.
war was illegal.

the war was an illegal war of agression.

Iraq posed no threat and Bush invaded and overthrough the legitimate (albeit heinous) government of Iraq to (what he thought) was to install a government friendly to the US.

gained his nickname from actions in the 1980's

#141 | Posted by truthhurts at 2012-01-11 03:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

The real question is did he use a WMD GAS,,,

This page is dedicated to the people of Halabja who on March 16th, 1988 suffered the worst chemical attacks committed by the Iraqi regime. On that day, 5,000 innocent civilians, 75% women and children, immediately perished. This was not the only chemical attack ordered by Saddam, it was just the worst.

#144 | Posted by ATaxpayer

what about the thousands of Iraqis dead and sick from our use of spent nuclear weapons in Iraq? seems like Rumsfeld could easily be held in such high disregard. Perhaps he needs a cool nickname like Chemical Ali, Perhaps Dick "The Butcher" Rumsfeld, nah needs work

Great read. Thanks for posting it.

Another posting from Reagan58...

www.youtube.com

An open letter to the people who hate Obama

These near-hysterical little left-wing cunt wafts are going to be far more entertaining to read come November.

Please refrain from writing or posting them until then.

When Obama loses in November, it'll be interesting whether the left refrains from its former evil ways when Bush was in office (and I'll tell you I was no Bush fan).

#9

It STILL stands.


#9

It STILL stands.

#167 | Posted by fresno500

Not really.

It was so weak that it wasn't worth refuting.


No JeffJ the frequency and volume is not even close.

#17 | Posted by Reagan58

If you believe that you are either disingenuous or wilfully ignorant.

Daily Ko's--ironic from the most hateful spewing site on the web.

145--IN 1998! The invasion began in 2003. That's FIFTEEN YEARS. No one here is suggesting that Saddam was not evil, or very very bad, but that the Iraq invasion was based on lies. You're still not paying attention, apparently.

Oops. 1998 should have been 1988.

Guess you just like ignoring this point.

Prag,

A vast majority of the intel availabe at the time of the Iraq invasion pointed toward the existence of an active WMD program (or at least stockpiles of WMDs).

If you want to argue that Bush was reckless in spite of the intel that was available - fine. It's a worthwhile debate.

However, if you want to argue that he knew or strongly suspected that the WMDs weren't there...you have an uphill battle at best.

However, if you want to argue that he knew or strongly suspected that the WMDs weren't there...you have an uphill battle at best.

#172 | Posted by JeffJ at 2012-01-11 08:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Since we sold them most of their weapons wouldn't we have a bill of sales for any wmd's? I think we had a pretty good idea of what they did and didnt have and to say intel was that bad is disingenuous.

Al Gore, Hillary, John Kerry, the UN, France, Saudi Arabia--everyone with intel said Saddam had WMD or stockpiles and wanted to reconstitute them.

To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Palin Guy,

I can provide countless quotes from prominent Dems AFTER the "sale" of said weapons that Saddam had an active WMD program.

Read Clinton's '98 Desert Fox speech for validation.

Criticizing Bush for going as far as he did in regards to Iraq has numerous principled arguments, both left and right, and both can be applied to Iran today.

The fact remains that the best intel at the time strongly pointed towards an active WMD program.

"I can provide countless quotes from prominent Dems AFTER the "sale" of said weapons that Saddam had an active WMD program. "

Can you find any Dems who invaded and occupied Iraq? ...

"Read Clinton's '98 Desert Fox speech for validation.'

... Like, say, Clinton? Or is there a difference between rhetoric and invasion?

"Al Gore, Hillary, John Kerry, the UN, France, Saudi Arabia--everyone with intel said Saddam had WMD or stockpiles and wanted to reconstitute them."

And none of them invaded and occupied. That would be George W. Bush.

"A vast majority of the intel availabe at the time of the Iraq invasion pointed toward the existence of an active WMD program (or at least stockpiles of WMDs)."

I've read a good deal of material that argues otherwise. Certainly, the inspectors found little to nothing, and when we got in there, there was pretty much nothing.

But as I think you said upthread, this has been argued to death here, so it's not really worth revisiting.

Except that references to gassing the kurds as evidence of WMDs in Iraq fifteen years later is entirely inane. (That wasn't you, I know.)

The fact remains that the best intel at the time strongly pointed towards an active WMD program.

#175 | Posted by JeffJ

That is absolutely positively FALSE

Let us look at the words of Mohammed El Baradei

NO EVIDENCE

of course if the US had such best intel, why didnt they share it with the inspectors? Or if they did why didnt they find anything?

the fact is bush lied and obfuscated to get the war he wanted.

History repeats itself, Kanrei and I had this exact discussion about 4 years ago...

TH: wrong our treaty that has us participate in the UN IS US law, we cannot just ignore that law.

It is well settled that under the Supremacy Clause, the Constitution of the United States supercedes and controls over any treaty that we enter into (which includes the UN Charter.) Under the Constitution, the power to declare war is given to Congress, and the War Powers Resolution of 1973 further codified that power. The Supreme Court has been clear on this issue, and even Thomas Jefferson, in his "Manual Parlimentary Procedure" listed as an exception from the treaty power "those subjects of legislation in which [the Constitution] gave a participation to the House of Representatives" Jefferson's Manual, n.337, p. 299. As such, we are not ignoring Art. 103 of the UN Charter so much as saying that it is superceded by the U.S. Constitution.

Can you find any Dems who invaded and occupied Iraq? ...

Nope.

Again - it is a fair criticism.

My issue is that you appear to do so in a vaccuum - Bush got congressional approval to go into Iraq (that was a Dem-controlled congress)

Clinton justified his more tepid appoach based upon the same intel.

For what it is worth Bush got congressional approval, legally, to take action against Iraq.

Whilst I despise tit-for-tat politics - please justify Obama unilaterially defining Libya as an enemy and deciding that their transgressions were SO bad that the checks and balances could to subverted.

Al Gore, Hillary, John Kerry, the UN, France, Saudi Arabia--everyone with intel said Saddam had WMD or stockpiles and wanted to reconstitute them.

To say otherwise is disingenuous.

#174 | Posted by MURPHY at

how can you fucking lie like this!

read the UN inspection reports

NO EVIDENCE

the best that the could come up with is that they THOUGHT Iraq was not fully disclosing, which they were because WE FOUND NOTHING.

Iraq was put in the impossible position of proving a negative.

It is a LIE to say the UN said Iraq had WMD

and the UN is the critical agent here. France, the US, SA etc should have or DID supply their INTEL

AND THE INSPECTORS FOUND NOTHING>

Troofy,

Do you want me to post countless quotes from your handlers that soundly refute your bullshit?

It's been done before.

History repeats itself, Kanrei and I had this exact discussion about 4 years ago...

TH: wrong our treaty that has us participate in the UN IS US law, we cannot just ignore that law.

It is well settled that under the Supremacy Clause, the Constitution of the United States supercedes and controls over any treaty that we enter into (which includes the UN Charter.) Under the Constitution, the power to declare war is given to Congress, and the War Powers Resolution of 1973 further codified that power. The Supreme Court has been clear on this issue, and even Thomas Jefferson, in his "Manual Parlimentary Procedure" listed as an exception from the treaty power "those subjects of legislation in which [the Constitution] gave a participation to the House of Representatives" Jefferson's Manual, n.337, p. 299. As such, we are not ignoring Art. 103 of the UN Charter so much as saying that it is superceded by the U.S. Constitution.

#180 | Posted by Rightocenter

Even accepting your argument, which is wrong in that just because it would be legal to US law it is still illegal in the world laws established when the UN was established, codifying the Nuremberg principle, your argument fails on its face because the Authorization Act for Iraq required the enforcement of UN Resolutions, and NO SUCH RESOLUTION AUTHORIZED FORCE.

Face it Bush is a war criminal

Troofy,

Do you want me to post countless quotes from your handlers that soundly refute your bullshit?

It's been done before.

#183 | Posted by JeffJ

geee jeffie are you going to post the useless, pointless and meaningless quotes from 1998 to 2002 from dems? How tried and useless.

Why dont you point out how Iraq was a threat in March 2003, cause the irrefutable facts were that Iraq was NOT a threat, no nukes, no chemical weapons, no biological weapons, no restricted weapons programs, nothing, nada, nilch.

and Bush KNEW this

or if that question is too hard

how bout these?

of course if the US had such best intel, why didnt they share it with the inspectors? Or if they did why didnt they find anything?

I truly hate republicans. They should be placed in concentration camps.

Whilst I despise tit-for-tat politics - please justify Obama unilaterially defining Libya as an enemy and deciding that their transgressions were SO bad that the checks and balances could to subverted.
#181 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I think we're seeing a trend. The office of president is getting more dictatorial.

Whilst I despise tit-for-tat politics - please justify Obama unilaterially defining Libya as an enemy and deciding that their transgressions were SO bad that the checks and balances could to subverted.

#181 | Posted by JeffJ

you wont see me defending obama

TH: Then what threat was posed by Iraq in March 2003? It was proven by March 2003 that Iraq posed NO threat to the US, Bush had no authorization to invade. and enforce UN resolutions? What UN resolution authorized the invasion of Iraq?

Once again, read Public Law 107-243, specifically the findings of Congress:

Whereas in Public Law 105-235 (August 14, 1998), Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in "material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations" and urged the President [Clinton] "to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations"
...
Whereas Congress has authorized the President "to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolution 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677"
...
Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime
Given that it was the stated purpose of the Clinton Administration in 1998 to remove the Iraqi regime from power and that regime was believed [admittedly due to faulty intelligence] to be continuing to flout existing UN Resolutions, Congress gave the President unfettered discretion to authorize the use of force against Iraq. Moreover, Congress specifically stated that pursuant to "section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution." What this meant is that Congress was, in effect, authorizing the President to declare war on Iraq at his discretion.

As stated previously, under the Supremacy Clause the Constitution and WPR do not require a UN Resolution for the US to act. Unfortunately for your talking points, the UN agreed with the US' read on this issue and recognized the invasion and occupation, albeit after the fact, as legal.

'Hate'? - I personally have no ill will towards him as a person; I just want him gone from the position of POTUS.

TH: your own arguement fails you. You say that the US has the right to attach whomever it chooses, you use the congressional authorization as proof that the US authorized the war, but the congressional authorization required enforcing UN resolutions, none of which authorized a use of force.

Not at all. You are operating on the assumption (without any basis in fact or reality) that the UN Charter overrides its signatories soveriegnty, which is incorrect. As for the resolutions language regarding "enforcing UN resolutions" that is merely for the resolutions that Iraq had been flouting for years, including "activities that threaten international peace and security, including the development of weapons of mass destruction and refusal or obstruction of United Nations weapons inspections in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687, repression of its civilian population in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688, and threatening its neighbors or United Nations operations in Iraq in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 949."

There is no requirement under 107-243 that a UN Resolution be obtained prior to the use of force, nor would Congress ever agree to such a restriction as that would violate the US Constitution.

While you are correct that inspectors found no evidence of actual weapons of mass destruction, they had found plenty of evidence that Iraq was researching and developing WMDs for at least 20 years, and if you think that they weren't going to keep trying then I have a collective in North Korea that I can sell to you, cheap.

Bleat all you want, but the fact is that while the decision to invade Iraq was misguided, at best, it was not illegal.

UN laws state that force may only be used against a country in self defense (you are attacked) subject to an imminent attack or by UN authorization.

The UN resolution 1441 stated that the matter would be brought back to the UN for consideration, the interpretation by the Russians, the Chinese, the French and the British were CLEAR that that resolution was NOT an automatic trigger for an invasion.

The matter was to be brought back to the UN, even Bush admitted as such, said he would call for that 2nd vote (NO MATTER WHAT is what he said), he drafted the resolution, but never asked for a vote on the resolution.

That is a clear indication that bush knew he needed to go back to the UN.

I agree that US constitution has supremacy over treaty law, however, the 1973 law is of questionable constitutionality, the invasion of Iraq clearly should have been under the auspices of a DoW.

Just because congress failed in their duty does not alleviate Bush for his actions.

Despite all the front fluff in the iraqi resolution it authorized force for 2 things

confronting the ongoing threat posed by iraq
and
enforcing UN resolutions

by March 2003 bush knew Iraq posed no threat, therefore he had no authorization to use force. Could Obama invade Iraq tomorrow if he said he perceived a threat?

and

the UN Never authorized force against Iraq, Clinton's No Fly ZOne was illegal and his use of bombing during his presidency was likewise illegal

"What this meant is that Congress was, in effect, authorizing the President to declare war on Iraq at his discretion."

Correct and even given the questionable constitutionality of the WPR allowing the POTUS to declare war, which is clearly unconstitutional, that authorization is limited to specific instances. In this case, confronting the ongoing threat posed by Iraq and as stated numerous times by March 2003, Iraq posed no threat, in other words the supposed threat spelled out earlier in the resolution were proven to be false, Iraq had no WMD, had no WMD infrastructure and therefore posed no threat.

What a stupid letter. Full of all the stereotypical crap leftwing nutfucks spend their day espousing. Democrats just can't understand why we wouldn't want OBOZO the assclown being president even though he has blown up the deficit, passed regulations that destroy business, promoted class warfare(hatred in itself), sold out the country to unions, went around congress to go to war, gave taxpayer money to his cronies(Solyndra), passed Obamacare despite 70% of the public being against it(all while giving his union friends waivers from it), and the countless other hundreds of disgraceful things this piece of trailer park trash of a president has done. Therefore they try to marginalize anyone who hates seeing the country they love by someone who spends his time apologizing for americas success.

Leave Brittany ALONE!

Reaganquaff58

"passed Obamacare..."

Yes, in spite of the fact that 69,456,897 voted for him (you know, in an election, the only "poll" that counts).

Elections have consequences.

And if the GOP wants to overturn the so-called Obamacare, knock yourselves out.

Meanwhile, the purpose of power is not to get elected or stay elected.

The purpose of power is to exercise it.

Hence, Obamacare.

POSTED BY DNMXT AT 2012-01-11 11:25 PM | REPLY| FLAG - Drowning in the koolaid

UN laws state that force may only be used against a country in self defense (you are attacked) subject to an imminent attack or by UN authorization.

It's not a law, it's a treaty, two different things.

the interpretation by the Russians, the Chinese, the French and the British were CLEAR that that resolution was NOT an automatic trigger for an invasion.

Good for them, but last time I checked their interpretations have no force and effect under US law.

Just because congress failed in their duty does not alleviate Bush for his actions

He is not "alleviated" for his actions, you may not think that they were just or moral, but they were legal under both US and Int'l law.

Despite all the front fluff in the iraqi resolution it authorized force for 2 things

The key language in 107-243 (from a legal standpoint) is in bold:

The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

Congress gave the President sole discretion to use force against the "continuing threat" (which includes all the historical wrongdoings) and to enforce all "relevant" resolutions, which in context includes resolutions dating back to the late 1980's.

the UN Never authorized force against Iraq, Clinton's No Fly ZOne was illegal and his use of bombing during his presidency was likewise illegal

Here we actually agree (somewhat), Clinton's No Fly Zone was technically a violation of the WPR but no one was going to call him on it.

Finally,

I agree that US constitution has supremacy over treaty law, however, the 1973 law is of questionable constitutionality, the invasion of Iraq clearly should have been under the auspices of a DoW.

If you read 107-243 carefully, and within the context of the WPR of 1973, Congress was very crafty in it's authorization by stating that "Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution."

Section 8(a)(1) states, in pertinent part, that "authority to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities ...shall not be inferred-- from any provision of law...unless such provision specifically authorizes the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into such situations and stating that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of this joint resolution."

Section 5(b) states, in pertinent part, that if the President has introduced armed forces in hostilities, that the President after 60 days shall terminate the use of the armed forces "unless...Congress has declared war or has enacted a specific authorization for such use of United States Armed Forces"

Therefore, Congress had an "out" so that they could say that they never declared war, but did issue a specific authorization for the use of the Armed Forces. As such, there was no legal need for a DoW, as you put it.

Well Hans, people like myself are going to exercise our power and send OBOZO the asspirate back to selling crack on the corner in Chicago.

"Well Hans, people like myself are going to exercise our power and send OBOZO the asspirate back to selling crack on the corner in Chicago."

That's democracy in action.

Knock yourself out.

But if there are more people unlike yourself than, say, like yourself, well, that's democracy, too.

the entire premise is flawed with the phrase "people who hate obama'.

just another in long list of attempts to sterotype and accused people of being biased. THE irony of course is that none of us on the right are as bigoted and as prejudiced as anyone who makes that charge.

we DONT HATE barak obama

WE hate the radical leftwing statist road he is desperate to take us down. and he will be stopped either by change in the white house or change in the senate.

AND ITS alway nice when you leftists KNUCKLEHEADS keep proving our predictions from the 08 election CORRECTAMUNDO every time some thread like this comes on.

you dont vote for him...racist
you say anything bad about him...racist

we know you better than you know yourselves.

This is the most ridiculous childlike rant (post) I have ever seen on the DR?

The bottom line is Americans like our individual liberty and dislike politicians that infringe upon it. Get over it cry babies. Obama is a tool.

well said dirk....

poll just out said majority want a change and that doesnt include the ever present 'generic' republican beating him everytime...

NOW if the gop doesn't fuck that up, we might be okay....

you forgot that we hate Mexicans too... shit, you couldn't have fit that in somewhere in your rant? that's just pathetic, now we hate you too for being incompetent. incompetent and lazy for forgetting a cornerstone of the conservative movement -- the hatred of Mexicans, and all Hispanics who are not from Spanish Royalty - they are actually ok most of the time. Unless they've mixed with non-royal blood. then, they are no better than Mexicans.

As I sit here twisting my mustache, smoking a cigar, drinking Johnny Walker Red Label, and watching YouTube videos of old Hitler speeches, I'll think of some more things you missed in your gross generalizations. You post reminds me of Moder8 on heroin.

but carry on...

I despise Obama. Hate would be a bit strong. But as for the other things, no. Gays are fine if they're not into sex-questing. But Obama would take our guns, has told a citizen not to burn something he owned as a threat from a foreign terrorist he passed along, and even signed away the rights of every citizen of this nation. He lied about Gitmo, torture, WOD, and now NDAA is a National Disgrace against America.

I was proud of a black man getting elected, but we got the ultimate Fucking Nigger instead. And yea I mean the derogatory aspect of the term focused upon him rather than his race in the same way I can apply it to GW bush being a "nigger". For me that word has lost its use/benefit/relevance for racial disgust, but still carries the meaning it originally had about the "nigger attitude".

Just like when the kids on southpark called Harley guys FAGs for being such fucking pricks to the town.

#207 - the voice of the RW. newsworthy flag.

Hi Bruce. I'm libertarian, not RW. I could vote REP if Ron Paul gets nominated but otherwise will prolly write in Gary Johnson. NFW would I vote for Obama again - add a sense of Betray'us to the disgust (QE TARP was treason too).

# 209 your new president will be mitt romney. i'm sure you'll be very happy with him

#210 NFW, he's a misoginsit pig 1% vulture.

#211 them's the choices

I didn't vote when the choice was Bush V Gore - It just doesn't seem smart to vote FORE someone who's obviously a lying sack of SATANIC shit.

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